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tacorivers
02-02-2010, 07:46 PM
I'm working through The Advancing Guitarist and the first chapter on single string playing. Anyway, I think that I understand the term modal vamp, but I wanted to make sure that I understand the concept (and yes I worked through the examples that he gives-VERY SLOWLY AS MY MUSIC READING SKILLS ARE SORELY LACKING). Anyway, here is what I got out of the material:

1. The purpose of a modal vamp is to create a static (or nearly static) harmony over which one can play the various modes.

2. The modal vamp does not "resolve" like a I IV V progression would resolve.

3. A modal vamp can contain a number of different chords (subject to point # 2).

4. A simple vamp can be created using a chord built off of the tonic of the relevant mode (built by stacking third intervals using the notes of the relevant tonic).

5. Another vamp can be created with slash chords using the IV and V of the parent scale.

Here are my questions:

1. Assuming that I am using the tonic chord from the relevant mode, can I also use chords built off of the other notes in the mode? If so, are there notes in the mode that I should avoid ?

2. Am I trying to avoid chords that tend to resolve to the I of the parent major scale? It seems like I would not want to avoid a resolution to the I of the relevant mode.


Thanks for any help on this. Oh, and if you do not already have it, you should go out and buy the "Advancing Guitarist."

dewey decibel
02-02-2010, 11:04 PM
Here are my questions:

1. Assuming that I am using the tonic chord from the relevant mode, can I also use chords built off of the other notes in the mode? If so, are there notes in the mode that I should avoid ?

2. Am I trying to avoid chords that tend to resolve to the I of the parent major scale? It seems like I would not want to avoid a resolution to the I of the relevant mode.


Thanks for any help on this. Oh, and if you do not already have it, you should go out and buy the "Advancing Guitarist."


Man, what an awful way to learn music. Let's take the phrase modal vamp, but take the word modal out of it. So what's a vamp? Here's a definition I looked up:

a short, simple introductory passage, usually repeated several times until otherwise instructed.


Which is basically correct, although it's not always short, and it's not always an intro. But the point is it repeats, which means that it doesn't really resolve. That's why a vamp is different than a tag, a tag means you repeat the last couple bars of a tune (such as a I-VI-ii-V), but those tend to resolve.

My point is that generally any vamp is going to be a modal vamp by default.

So, on to the questions:

1. Assuming that I am using the tonic chord from the relevant mode, can I also use chords built off of the other notes in the mode? If so, are there notes in the mode that I should avoid ?

Well, in guess a modal vamp there are no avoid notes because there's no functioning harmony. That's why generally a vamp will be based on a minor chord- Amin | D7, Amin | Bbmaj7, Amin | Emin, etc. So you have chords which imply a mode/tonality but do not resolve.

If you decide to use a major chord then generally the natural 4th is an avoid note. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't play it or automatically switch to a raised 4th, it just means you shouldn't hang on it.


2. Am I trying to avoid chords that tend to resolve to the I of the parent major scale? It seems like I would not want to avoid a resolution to the I of the relevant mode.



This is why I was suggesting taking the word modal out of it. I'm sure Goodrick has good intentions with what he's trying to show you, but really none of this stuff will matter in the real world. Let's say you have A major, and you want to do something like Amaj7 | Dmaj7 or Amaj7 | E7 for a vamp- nobody's going to call you out on it. For instance, take Amaj7 | E7, but throw am E pedal underneath the whole thing, is that now a modal vamp?

JonR
02-03-2010, 03:16 AM
I'm working through The Advancig Guitarist and the first chapter on single string playing. Anyway, I think that I understand the term modal vamp, but I wanted to make sure that I understand the concept (and yes I worked through the examples that he gives-VERY SLOWLY AS MY MUSIC READING SKILLS ARE SORELY LACKING). Anyway, here is what I got out of the material:

1. The purpose of a modal vamp is to create a static (or nearly static) harmony over which one can play the various modes. Not exactly. Any particular modal vamp will usually be designed for one particular mode. Sometimes a vamp may permit 2 or 3 different (parallel) ones.

2. The modal vamp does not "resolve" like a I IV V progression would resolve. True. There should be no sense of "tendency" in the chords, ie, a suggestion of forward movement (chords "leading" in the direction of a tonic). Modal harmony is static - like exploring a mood, rather than telling a story.

3. A modal vamp can contain a number of different chords (subject to point # 2).Yes. The more it contains, the more likely it is to be only suitable for one mode.
A single (triad) chord vamp will permit 3 modes: either 3 major ones or 3 minor ones, depending on the chord.

4. A simple vamp can be created using a chord built off of the tonic of the relevant mode (built by stacking third intervals using the notes of the relevant tonic).Yes...
But generally in jazz, modal vamps are NOT based on building in 3rds - they tend to use quartal chords: built mainly in 4ths, with occasional 2nds or 5ths, and maybe an odd incidental 3rd if one creeps in.
Quartal chords have the advantage of ambiguity - they don't remind you of functional chords (chords with a role in a major or minor key). They don't have any clear identity, or any "leading" imperative. They just hang there! (Tense possibly, but kind of undecided...;))

5. Another vamp can be created with slash chords using the IV and V of the parent scale.True - but it needs to be a bit more specific to be clear.

Here are my questions:

1. Assuming that I am using the tonic chord from the relevant mode, can I also use chords built off of the other notes in the mode? If so, are there notes in the mode that I should avoid ?If you are using the tonic chord, then you have an Ionian vamp.
A common additional chord would be IV or ii, alternating with I. (This is quite a common sound in rock and R&B.)
Any more chords, and you will end up with a major key sequence, or cycle, not really a "vamp" at all!

2. Am I trying to avoid chords that tend to resolve to the I of the parent major scale?Normally yes. Of course if your vamp is Ionian (based on the tonic chord), then you are kind of "resolved" there all the time anyhow.
If you're in any other mode, you can avoid resolution by simply avoiding the tonic chord, and maintaining the vamp.
Eg, a dorian vamp is typically ii-V (eg Am-D7 in A dorian) which - in key-based music - is a standard change pointing strongly towards resolution on I (G). But if you keep the vamp going, the tonal centre settles on A. (IOW, the chords become i-IV in dorian, not ii-V in the relative major.)
But however many times you cycle Am7-D7, as soon as you hit a G the dorian modal feel is destroyed, and you are slap bang in G major.

SRVYJM
02-03-2010, 04:02 AM
Eg, a dorian vamp is typically ii-V (eg Am-D7 in A dorian) which - in key-based music - is a standard change pointing strongly towards resolution on I (G). But if you keep the vamp going, the tonal centre settles on A. (IOW, the chords become i-IV in dorian, not ii-V in the relative major.)
But however many times you cycle Am7-D7, as soon as you hit a G the dorian modal feel is destroyed, and you are slap bang in G major.

Jon, you mean any time you hit a G note, or a G major chord? I played a vamp of Am7-D7 and played the G note without it sounding like it wanted to resolve to G at all, it still sounded very much like it wanted to resolve to A. I played a lot more A pentatonic then a full dorian scale of A, but for flavor I played the #6, and it still sounded like it wanted to resolve in A minor to me. I played more blues lines then a jazz thing, but still, A minor all the way.

How else would modes work if everything always wanted to resolve to the Ionian chord as a tonic?

As an example, I played this progression

A minor- G major- F major- E minor and it wanted to resolve to E minor, very Phrygian sounding, and I of coursed emphasized that in what I played, but it still sounded resoundly Phrygian to me, not like a G major at all, even though all four chords are in the G major scale.

4:06 in the morning here, good thing there is something to do this early when I can't get back to sleep!

tacorivers
02-03-2010, 07:29 AM
Thanks for all of the help. To clarify, none of my comments came directly from Goodrick. He only suggests that one play single string modes over a modal vamp and provides some examples. My points were generated by my own research into modal vamps.

tacorivers
02-03-2010, 07:33 AM
Modal harmony is static - like exploring a mood, rather than telling a story.


This is a great explanation! Especially since I'm listing to Kind of Blue right now.

JonR
02-03-2010, 12:48 PM
Jon, you mean any time you hit a G note, or a G major chord? G chord. A G note is perfectly fine of course (as you say).

As an example, I played this progression

A minor- G major- F major- E minor and it wanted to resolve to E minor, very Phrygian sounding, and I of coursed emphasized that in what I played, but it still sounded resoundly Phrygian to me, not like a G major at all, even though all four chords are in the G major scale. Uh, no they ain't: F is in C, not G major. ;) (OK, you can kick yourself now... :))
4:06 in the morning here, good thing there is something to do this early when I can't get back to sleep!Moral - don't tangle with theory in the early hours... ;)

Some would argue that Am-G-F-Em is an "Andalusian cadence" in A minor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence - although strictly that should have an E major final chord, pointing more clearly back to the Am tonic.

Neil Young's "Like A Hurricane" uses your sequence, implying the A minor key (A aeolian mode), tho he tags a G on the end of it - maybe in case holding the Em does sound too much like a phrygian tonic?
||Am - - - |Am - - - |G - - - |G - - - |
|Fmaj7 - - - |Fmaj7 - - - |Em - - - |G - - - ||

I agree with you, it can certainly (without that last G) sound at least as much like a iv-III-II-i in E phrygian as a i-VII-VI-v in A aeolian. That effect would be underlined, of course, by holding the Em longer than the other chords.

In terms of this topic, it isn't really a "vamp" - too many chords. It's a phrygian sequence or cycle.
An E phrygian vamp might be:
|Em - - - |Em - F - |
- round and round.
Or - in modal jazz - just a one chord Esusb9 (E7sus4b9), which is basically Dm6/E, or Bm7b5/E.

SRVYJM
02-03-2010, 01:02 PM
G chord. A G note is perfectly fine of course (as you say).
Uh, no they ain't: F is in C, not G major. ;) (OK, you can kick yourself now... :))
That kick hurt. I'm not going to go back and edit out my idiocy any longer. Happens too often, especially at 4am!

Moral - don't tangle with theory in the early hours... ;)

Some would argue that Am-G-F-Em is an "Andalusian cadence" in A minor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence - although strictly that should have an E major final chord, pointing more clearly back to the Am tonic.

Neil Young's "Like A Hurricane" uses your sequence, implying the A minor key (A aeolian mode), tho he tags a G on the end of it - maybe in case holding the Em does sound too much like a phrygian tonic?
||Am - - - |Am - - - |G - - - |G - - - |
|Fmaj7 - - - |Fmaj7 - - - |Em - - - |G - - - ||

I agree with you, it can certainly (without that last G) sound at least as much like a iv-III-II-i in E phrygian as a i-VII-VI-v in A aeolian. That effect would be underlined, of course, by holding the Em longer than the other chords.

In terms of this topic, it isn't really a "vamp" - too many chords. It's a phrygian sequence or cycle.
An E phrygian vamp might be:
|Em - - - |Em - F - |
- round and round.
Or - in modal jazz - just a one chord Esusb9 (E7sus4b9), which is basically Dm6/E, or Bm7b5/E.

OK, cool. I thought it sounded ok!

dlguitar64
02-04-2010, 09:00 AM
Here are a few modal vamps i recorded recently:

D dorian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJd4LNFjaio

D phrygian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LonKRJaqYBo

D mixolydian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13t8l3LtaM

D aeolian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13t8l3LtaM

hacker
02-04-2010, 02:31 PM
dlguitar,

Great playing there. what chords are you playing in the Mixolydian Vid?

dlguitar64
02-05-2010, 07:24 AM
dlguitar,

Great playing there. what chords are you playing in the Mixolydian Vid?

thanks!i was alternating d and c triads over a d bass note.

Luke
02-05-2010, 08:08 AM
Frank Gambale has a YouTube video on modal vamps.

He uses the four and five chords of the mode and keeps a static bass note of the mode's Root.

The modes of C Major:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian


So let's pick E Phrygian:

Notes are:

E F G A B C D

So he would play the A to B back and forth with the an E as the bassiest note.

The chords would be:

A-7/E and B-7b5/E

Of course you can skip the 7ths and just go:

Am/E and B flat5/E

kimock
02-05-2010, 09:15 AM
dlguitar,

Great playing there. what chords are you playing in the Mixolydian Vid?

That's good stuff, huh?
Hacker, this is partially in response to your Mix vamp chord question, and partially a general reminder for everybody that you may want to consider what I would consider two preliminary stages to where you guys are picking this up relative to the melodic improv component.

I'm not going to get to into this, it's too much for this format to explain briefly, but if you want to get a handle on the melodic stuff, you need to start with just a drone, R 5 R, and play the pitches in tune, unambiguously in Just Intonation. Yeah, that's a PITA, but figure it out.

After that, you might consider extending that short R 5 R spine of 5ths up and or down one 5th, and see what that brings to the table. In the key of A for example A E B supports Lydian in a useful way, and kinda counterintuitively A E D or E A D won't sink major as long as A stays in the bass.

If you can get a handle on that, and you can with a little work, when you get back to Equal temperament and you start looking for harmony for your vamp, you'll discover that there are multiple melodic meanings for those pitches other than the drone 5ths depending on what other pitches they associate with.
Again, in A Mix, you're going to get different affects from associating the B with A and E, and the F# with E and B than you will if you associate B with G and D, and F# with D and A.

It's the difference between hearing those pitches as a part of a stack of 5ths or as stacks of thirds. You can also hear that G as an overtonal 7th, but don't tell JonR;).

Anyway, there's always a "stack of 5ths" interpretation for the mode and a "stack of 3rds" interpretation. The harmony you choose for your vamp might lean one way or the other, which is cool, but obviously by the time you get to triads G D A for MIX, you're in a really different place than if you were just using a single voicing like A F# G B, where the entire chord is open to interpretation. The melodic portion of the program will follow suit.
Anyway, Hacker, try that chord for MIX. Throw an E on top if you want.

Again, I'm not going to get into the specific tunings here for the modes, but they started out as tunings, and if you don't get back to that at some point, you're gonna miss out on a lot of the melodic potential, and harmonic flexibility of the modal approach in general as it makes the translation from unambiguous Just tuning to the multiple meanings of the pitches in Equal temperament.

It's not just major scales with different roots. Straight up major would include 12 different meanings for those 7 pitches, and you can and will use them all eventually, either by design or by accident. You might want to look into that when you're feeling ready.

dkaplowitz
02-05-2010, 09:21 AM
Frank Gambale has a YouTube video on modal vamps.

He uses the four and five chords of the mode and keeps a static bass note of the mode's Root.

The modes of C Major:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian


So let's pick E Phrygian:

Notes are:

E F G A B C D

So he would play the A to B back and forth with the an E as the bassiest note.

The chords would be:

A-7/E and B-7b5/E

Of course you can skip the 7ths and just go:

Am/E and B flat5/E
I took his lesson to mean this:

The IV and V chords of the mother scale with the bass note of the mode underneath.

So, to use your example, E phrygian comes out of C major/ionian. The IV and V chords of C major/ionian are F & G respectively. So vamp on F & G major, while playing an E bass. That will capture the sound of E phrygian for you to blow over. If you keep the same vamp chords (F & G), but change the bass note to any note out of C major, you will capture the sound of that mode. For instance D in the bass under a F & G vamp will yield D dorian, F in the bass will yield F lydian, G = Mixo, etc. etc. through all 7 modes.

Seems simpler to me, but whatever works best for you is always the best.

Dave

hacker
02-05-2010, 03:00 PM
Kimock-I'm a little confused by your post. Are you suggesting that one cannot appreciate modal playing without retuning your guitar? Or that using just intonation simply accentuates the feel?

I fully understand that modes are not just meant to be "major scales with different roots." I understand the progressions associated with the different modes and can recognize most of them by ear as well.

I also appreciate the use of a drone note(s) in practicing modes. I have done this on both piano and guitar.

What i couldnt figure out was the chords the gentlemen in the video was playing in the upper registers.

Thanks for the lesson though!

kimock
02-05-2010, 05:25 PM
Kimock-I'm a little confused by your post. Are you suggesting that one cannot appreciate modal playing without retuning your guitar? Or that using just intonation simply accentuates the feel?

Hi Hacker, I'm not suggesting anything, I'm coming right out and and saying as a statement of fact that there is a progression from the use of the specific non-modulatory, non-tempered Just intervals that are the sound of the mode with a drone, through the microtonal melodic adjustment of those same intervals with the various triads in Equal Temperament, to the use of the tempered modulatory pitches with non-triadic inversions of modal harmony. You guys are starting at the wrong end of that progression for the modal playing to be anything other than kind of a blur, but you're just starting. So keep an eye or an ear on that, because at some point down the road you're gonna have to relearn a bunch of stuff. Y'all are skipping ahead of the modal thing in a way that's preventing you from taking full advantage of the available musical potential.

I fully understand that modes are not just meant to be "major scales with different roots." I understand the progressions associated with the different modes and can recognize most of them by ear as well.

That's good!

I also appreciate the use of a drone note(s) in practicing modes. I have done this on both piano and guitar.

OK, so what was the difference?

What i couldnt figure out was the chords the gentlemen in the video was playing in the upper registers.

D and C triad shapes, A minor 7 if you want to call the open A string a chord tone as opposed to part of a drone. It's MIX straight up for sure, but that specific harmony is directing traffic in a way that limits the melodic application because your ear is still dealing with unambiguous triads in an Equal Tempered setting. So the general melodic application is scale-wise with skips of thirds, and the 3rd degree of the mode doesn't show up as other than the major 3rd of D.

That's why I gave you that other voicing,
in the key of D it would be: D B C E.
If you tune your low E down to D you can just play that C on the G string 5th fret and strum the thing open. That's MIX too, but no triads.
Now you have two meanings for the D B F# and C that you can invoke by context and you've expanded the musical resources of the mode quite a bit.

That bit that dlguitar64 played was great, I dug it, but it's neither the intonation of Mixolydian nor its range. It's a slice, a nice slice, but just a slice.
The triads have a limiting effect on the application of the didymic pairs.
The quartal nature of modern modal harmony was brought up earlier, this is why. It's easier to hear and apply the difference between the triadic "stack of 3rds" sounds over the non-triadic harmony than it is to make the "stacks of 4ths or 5ths" sounds stick over those unambiguous triads.

That's why at some point you want to explore and make the distinctions between "Just Dronality" with zero pitch ambiguity, Modal Triads in either JI or ET, and the full application of modern ET modal practice without triads.
But you got to start at the top and get the shit in tune first if you want to do that.


Thanks for the lesson though!

You're welcome! No biggie, just food for thought.:bonk

stratoskier
02-05-2010, 05:54 PM
I hate to switch modes, but...

Can anyone suggest something analagous to Gambale's major modes approach for learning/practicing modes of the melodic minor? BTW -- dkaplowitz had it right. Gambale suggests practicing the major modes using a vamp built from the 4 and 5 chords of the underlying major mode, with a bass drone = root of the desired mode. So that'd be F/E to G/E for a Phygian vamp.

Of course, melodic minor harmony is much more complex (or unfamiliar?) than major mode harmony. Gambale's approach works nicely for the major modes because (as he explains it) a given set of two major triads a whole step apart is unique and characteristic to a particular major scale. When you put the drone note below those two chords, it unambiguously identifies a particular mode. Nice and clean. But I'm wondering if there is some comparable system for the modes of melodic minor. For example, mode 2 of C mel minor is Dorian b2, suggesting a Dsusb9 chord -- but what other chords make a nice vamp for learning the fingerings and sound of that mode? Just experiment with other chords from C mel minor to find something that works well? Any helpful backing tracks out there?

(Kimock -- I know I've strayed was outside the sophisticated approach you're suggesting, but I am but a hack. I'll keep straining to get my head around the principles you described. In the meantime -- I spent about an hour enjoying some of your vids. Way cool stuff.)
Thanks,
Bert

dewey decibel
02-05-2010, 07:28 PM
I hate to switch modes, but...

Can anyone suggest something analagous to Gambale's major modes approach for learning/practicing modes of the melodic minor? BTW -- dkaplowitz had it right. Gambale suggests practicing the major modes using a vamp built from the 4 and 5 chords of the underlying major mode, with a bass drone = root of the desired mode. So that'd be F/E to G/E for a Phygian vamp.

Of course, melodic minor harmony is much more complex (or unfamiliar?) than major mode harmony. Gambale's approach works nicely for the major modes because (as he explains it) a given set of two major triads a whole step apart is unique and characteristic to a particular major scale. When you put the drone note below those two chords, it unambiguously identifies a particular mode. Nice and clean. But I'm wondering if there is some comparable system for the modes of melodic minor. For example, mode 2 of C mel minor is Dorian b2, suggesting a Dsusb9 chord -- but what other chords make a nice vamp for learning the fingerings and sound of that mode? Just experiment with other chords from C mel minor to find something that works well? Any helpful backing tracks out there?

(Kimock -- I know I've strayed was outside the sophisticated approach you're suggesting, but I am but a hack. I'll keep straining to get my head around the principles you described. In the meantime -- I spent about an hour enjoying some of your vids. Way cool stuff.)
Thanks,
Bert


Can I ask why you would want to practice the modes of melodic minor in this way? Just curious.

kimock
02-05-2010, 07:31 PM
I hate to switch modes, but...

Can anyone suggest something analagous to Gambale's major modes approach for learning/practicing modes of the melodic minor? BTW -- dkaplowitz had it right. Gambale suggests practicing the major modes using a vamp built from the 4 and 5 chords of the underlying major mode, with a bass drone = root of the desired mode. So that'd be F/E to G/E for a Phygian vamp.

Of course, melodic minor harmony is much more complex (or unfamiliar?) than major mode harmony. Gambale's approach works nicely for the major modes because (as he explains it) a given set of two major triads a whole step apart is unique and characteristic to a particular major scale. When you put the drone note below those two chords, it unambiguously identifies a particular mode. Nice and clean. But I'm wondering if there is some comparable system for the modes of melodic minor. For example, mode 2 of C mel minor is Dorian b2, suggesting a Dsusb9 chord -- but what other chords make a nice vamp for learning the fingerings and sound of that mode? Just experiment with other chords from C mel minor to find something that works well? Any helpful backing tracks out there?

(Kimock -- I know I've strayed was outside the sophisticated approach you're suggesting, but I am but a hack. I'll keep straining to get my head around the principles you described. In the meantime -- I spent about an hour enjoying some of your vids. Way cool stuff.)
Thanks,
Bert

Bert, ignore me. I just make this stuff up as I go along to scare the kids.

Couple quick thoughts on the melodic minor, but that's all I'm good for, I don't relate to that scale in a conventional Jazz sense.

First of all, it's just a major scale with a minor third, so no need to mystify it as complex.
It's actually simpler to use that harmony, or at least apply it.
The conventional wisdom being that there are no avoid tones, and that any combination of pitches "chords" are completely interchangeable with each other. Any pile, any bass note, all the same thing.

You just "play the key", kinda like blues actually.

You can arrange the scale in modes, starting from C to C, then D to D etc.
and then name whatever pile you want from that starting point, but those sounds are all basically interchangeable.

If you want to kick it back into my own lunatic fringe "outside the system, looking in" routine, you have a series of "mixed modes" with really pointless names.
So your 1st mode of Melodic Minor is my "Major over Minor", the first tetrachord of Minor, 1 2 b3 4, with the second tetrachord of Major 5 6 7 8 above.
Drone away.

Your 2nd mode of MM is my "MIX over Phrygian", you get the idea, drone away. . .

Your 3rd mode of MM is my Lydian Augmented, just like yours cuz no 5th equals no drone, so drone went away. . . so this bit is technically in danger of not being a "mode" at all if we stick with my lunatic fringe bullshit of needing to connect JI dronality to Equal Temperament for the purposes of idealizing melodic function.

Your 4th mode of MM is my "MIX over LYD", dronality restored, it's got a perfect 5th, bust out the Vina, drone away.

Your 5th mode of MM is my "Minor over Major", duh. Drone me all night long.

Your 6th mode of MM is my half diminished scale if I had to name it, but no 5th, so no mode, so no drone.

Your 7th mode of MM same deal, no 5th, no mode, but a nice altered scale I guess you call it, but either way it's a major scale with a minor third, or a major scale with a sharp root (NO MODE!!) all good, all completely interchangeable.

I would just start with the "Mixed Mode" variety that have a perfect 5th and sing 'em with a drone and see what it makes you feel like besides possibly sea sick.
After that you could grab any stack of anything with any/every other tone from the scale and see if you can tell 'em apart functionally.
Maybe yes? Maybe no?

In any event this batch won't behave like the regular major scale "modes" or harmony, so I don't know if there is a good translation from diatonic vanilla to MM.

JonR will straighten my sorry ass out when he wakes up, and I'm ready for him to!

peace

stratoskier
02-06-2010, 06:45 AM
Can I ask why you would want to practice the modes of melodic minor in this way? Just curious.

Well, perhaps I'm on the wrong track, but I believe a similar approach has helped me with my understanding and application of the major modes. I tend to think of these things in their various parts -- there's the theory (how is the mode constructed?; where does each mode fit?; what are its applications?), the mechanics (fingering options), and the sound (can I recognize the mode when I hear it? Can I hear it in my head?). In this context, it seems useful for all 3 areas to experiment with a new mode in its native environment -- that is, to rehearse fingerings, invent lines, and try to make music over a vamp that unambiguously fits the mode. Only after I feel comfortable with that can I move on to use the mode effectively when its use is suggested by a particular chord or passage sandwiched within a more complicated harmonic environment. I guess in summary, I think its useful to start simple.

Got a hunch you're gonna cream me over that convoluted description and say something like "Just listen and make music, fool!" but after years of floundering, I'm really trying to bring some discipline to my practice.

And Kimock -- thanks for the detailed explanation. I'll continue to ponder it!

Cheers,
Bert

JonR
02-06-2010, 09:11 AM
I hate to switch modes, but...

Can anyone suggest something analagous to Gambale's major modes approach for learning/practicing modes of the melodic minor? BTW -- dkaplowitz had it right. Gambale suggests practicing the major modes using a vamp built from the 4 and 5 chords of the underlying major mode, with a bass drone = root of the desired mode. So that'd be F/E to G/E for a Phygian vamp.

Of course, melodic minor harmony is much more complex (or unfamiliar?) than major mode harmony. Yes - that's because a ton of music has been written in most of the major scale modes. Obviously in Ionian and Aeolian (centuries of key-based western music), but before that and since in Mixolydian, Dorian, Lydian and Phrygian - from Gregorian chant to Celtic folk to Joe Satriani!

Melodic minor, in contrast, is a "synthetic" scale - constructed to enable better melodic resolution to an upper tonic in a minor key (based otherwise on aeolian, with occasional harmonisations from harmonic minor). No music was actually written in melodic minor, as a tonal scale in its own right. (Well, AFAIK anyway. I'd be happy to hear of any piece written entirely in melodic minor...)

But then jazz musicians discovered that most melodic minor modes had no "avoid notes", and so could be used in various improvisation situations to stack interesting extensions on to certain chords - famously the minor key V7, of course (7th mode = altered scale), but also the minor key supertonic, adding a major 9 to the m7b5 chord using the 6th mode of MM ("locrian natural 2").
And not to mention, of course, mode I on a minor key tonic, providing stable 6, maj7 and 9 extensions.

And mode 2, as you say, could be used on a phrygian modal chord, a susb9. (Tho it would be better named, in that case, "phrygian natural 6" than "dorian b2".)

(In a sense, you could say jazz uses melodic minor for its harmonic potential, as opposed to its classical origins as a temporary, ascending only, adaptation of natural or harmonic minor. Hence "jazz minor" for the use of the scale in both directions.)

This doesn't, of course, mean that melodic minor modes can't be explored in the way kimock outlines, superimposed over drones, to discover interesting new sounds. Only that you won't find much application for them in existing music. (In jazz, they are passing sounds only, always resolving elsewhere, with the possible exception of phrygian natural 6.)

dmczern
01-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Bumping this thread because I am beginning to work with this book. If someone would like to simplify "modal vamps"for me I would greatly appreciate it. I realize that some very smart/outstanding players have kind of done this already but I'm still unclear. Thanks to all of you, you guys are great.

Dave

Seraphine
01-22-2012, 04:35 PM
I wonder that many will find Modes applicable if they, in the usual diatonic mindset, begin to think of modal improvisation in terms of improvising with those forms, rather then improvising within the forms?

dmczern
01-22-2012, 05:16 PM
Good point.

dmczern
01-22-2012, 06:38 PM
Would you guys agree with the following explanation of "modal vamping", which Mick Goodrick mentions in the Advancing Guitarist?

Thanks


In simpler terms, pick a mode.


C Dorian

To create a mode vamp, what is the Parent Scale of C Dorian, the answer is B flat major.

what are the Major Triads built off B flat, answer is E flat and F.

So take those two modes, and place a C in the bass note over them moving between E Flat and F chords to create a fundamentally Dorian sounding system.

Then improvise over the Eb/C F/C progression using C Dorian.

Just an example of how to create them... try E Lydian

the Parent scale of E lydian is B.

The IV and V B major is E and F#

Use a chord progression of F#/E to E and improvise an E lydian scale over this vamp.

Seraphine
01-22-2012, 06:57 PM
Or take Emaj7 and Dmaj7 Vamp and do B Dorian... it's all relative and as Jerry Garcia said... "All the pieces of the puzzle begin to look the same"

russ6100
01-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Or take Emaj7 and Dmaj7 Vamp and do B Dorian...

I've never heard of anyone thinking this way....can you explain the thinking behind this one?

Seraphine
01-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I've never heard of anyone thinking this way....can you explain the thinking behind this one?

Have you tried it? Sounds nice eh?

Second listen to this.... They're using a "Modal mixture" of B dorian and E major, which makes it special but there's a B dorian jam in Eyes.... The tune has a B minor and an A riding off the vamp during verse ( and also in the Emaj7-bminor-A, segments ) thus the B dorian would make more sense then, to some calculations, even though it's in the Vamp from the beginning. Most times B dorian is at home with an E major because of the notes, but it's all relative.

Passing tones / notes and using D-D# can be found in it as well...

fLDw_gj5e3g

russ6100
01-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Have you tried it? Sounds nice eh?

Second listen to this.... They're using a "Modal mixture" of B dorian and E major, which makes it special but there's a B dorian jam in Eyes.... The tune has a B minor and an A riding off the vamp during verse ( and also in the Emaj7-bminor-A, segments ) thus the B dorian would make more sense then, to some calculations, even though it's in the Vamp from the beginning. Most times B dorian is at home with an E major because of the notes, but it's all relative.

Passing tones / notes and using D-D# can be found in it as well...

fLDw_gj5e3g

Wish I wasn't so pressed for time but....

Neither of the examples you gave are modal vamps - both contain chords that are unrelated.

In the second example (Emaj7 to Bm7), B dorian would be fine over the Bm7 but ain't too happenin' over the Emaj7.

You could possibly get some mileage out of applying modal thinking to fretboard patterns by thinking B Mixolydian over the Emaj7 (really E major) and then just change your fingering by one note - switch to B Dorian over the Bm7, a pattern change of only one note - the 3rd. The plus to that kind of thinking (as long as you remember that these are just fingerboard patterns) is that you can really milk motifs and keep ideas going throughout because of the 1 note "adjustment" needed to keep your melodies fitting the chords.....

I'm still asleep....better stop.....more java....

Seraphine
01-23-2012, 01:31 PM
Wish I wasn't so pressed for time but....

Neither of the examples you gave are modal vamps - both contain chords that are unrelated.

In the second example (Emaj7 to Bm7), B dorian would be fine over the Bm7 but ain't too happenin' over the Emaj7.

You could possibly get some mileage out of applying modal thinking to fretboard patterns by thinking B Mixolydian over the Emaj7 (really E major) and then just change your fingering by one note - switch to B Dorian over the Bm7, a pattern change of only one note - the 3rd. The plus to that kind of thinking (as long as you remember that these are just fingerboard patterns) is that you can really milk motifs and keep ideas going throughout because of the 1 note "adjustment" needed to keep your melodies fitting the chords.....

I'm still asleep....better stop.....more java....

Yea Java helps!... 2 cups wake you up.. 3 get you going and 4 or more brings you down and wires you!...

You are over thinking this.... It is NOT based theoretic yes or no, or avoid or any such format for B dorian... first B Dorian fits E Ionian like a glove... there is no need for the mixo... The Bminor is Bminor NOT Bm7... The idea Dorian requires a minor7 to find a home is not applicable... at all....

Don't format this in complex renditions of formula's that are not required, nor apply... This is what I mean by diatonic minded theory and players might benefit from thinking of improvising with form rather than in form... The B dorian fits the E Ionian like their married eh? and it rides through an Emaj7 the same way... how you can change a Bminor to a Bm7 and also claim Emaj7 and Bdorian don't mix is way tooo complex.

As you can hear in the Grateful Dead example.. Eyes Of The World... it WORKS. If you want to think of it in terms of a KEY, or diatonic... by all means do... Yet the beginning is ambiguous... it rides the Emajor7 with a Dmaj7 kick.... and Bdorian loves it.

russ6100
01-23-2012, 01:39 PM
Yea Java helps!... 2 cups wake you up.. 3 get you going and 4 or more brings you down and wires you!...

You are over thinking this.... It is NOT based theoretic yes or no, or avoid or any such format for B dorian... first B Dorian fits E Ionian like a glove... there is no need for the mixo... The Bminor is Bminor NOT Bm7... The idea Dorian requires a minor7 to find a home is not applicable... at all....

Don't format this in complex renditions of formula's that are not required, nor apply... This is what I mean by diatonic minded theory and players might benefit from thinking of improvising with form rather than in form... The B dorian fits the E Ionian like their married eh? and it rides through an Emaj7 the same way... how you can change a Bminor to a Bm7 and also claim Emaj7 and Bdorian don't mix is way tooo complex.

As you can hear in the Grateful Dead example.. Eyes Of The World... it WORKS. If you want to think of it in terms of a KEY, or diatonic... by all means do... Yet the beginning is ambiguous... it rides the Emajor7 with a Dmaj7 kick.... and Bdorian loves it.

A fine line with java.....the dosage required to be sufficiently alert is often dangerously close to the dosage that renders me fit to be institutionalized! :omg

About B Dorian fitting E Ionian like a glove....

B Dorian *is* A Ionian - there's the glove. By saying that B Dorian fits E Ionian like a glove, you're also saying that B Dorian fits F# Dorian (F# Dorian *is* E Ionian).....your calculations are off somewhere I'm thinkin'...

russ6100
01-23-2012, 01:43 PM
To put it another way, Emaj7 contains a D# (the major 7th), while B dorian contains a D natural (the minor 3rd) - not the scale of choice to cover both chords....

Seraphine
01-23-2012, 04:44 PM
...About B Dorian fitting E Ionian like a glove....

B Dorian *is* A Ionian - there's the glove. By saying that B Dorian fits E Ionian like a glove, you're also saying that B Dorian fits F# Dorian (F# Dorian *is* E Ionian).....your calculations are off somewhere I'm thinkin'...

To put it another way, Emaj7 contains a D# (the major 7th), while B dorian contains a D natural (the minor 3rd) - not the scale of choice to cover both chords....

You originally asked...

Or take Emaj7 and Dmaj7 Vamp and do B Dorian... it's all relative and as Jerry Garcia said... "All the pieces of the puzzle begin to look the same"
I've never heard of anyone thinking this way....can you explain the thinking behind this one?

Not much thinking involved.. it's more in knowing what I like... and I certainly love it. Thinking about it is one thing.. playing it is another. Playing music rather then formula, often leaves "thinking" chasing Hearing... Or maybe it's just to walk right past the crawling D/D# steps on the spiral staircase... My ears have ZERO issues with it here.

Eyes Of The World is a brilliant tune... It's in Emaj ( thus the Emaj7 ) yet it is also ambiguous. The ( Emaj7 - Bminor - A progression) chords are not found in any key.. In E the B would be B7 and dominant, yet it's a Bminor here... Bm does fit the A key ( among others ) yet NOT the E, which the tune is in...

...thus a setting for a brilliant Modal "Jam". I was only mentioning Bdorian initially... Yet seems the view and examples are expanding. This tune is ripe with "Modal Mixtures".... you'll find many in it.. such as the B dorian/E ionian mix and E ionian/E mixo...

E lydian even works well with the Emaj7 - Dmaj7.

Modal jams and modal mixtures are hand in hand with passing tones / notes eh? chromatic playing also "colours" and mixes/blends ( sounds like a cooking course? ) things well. Thinking of B Dorian as B Dorian and not *A*.... might help. Choosing what is appropriate over a chord or two or weaved through an ambiguous Emaj7-Bm-A progression ( Try D# dorian in this... ) that is "keyless" in a sense, is an example of some of what I meant by thinking in terms of "improvising with the form" and not just within the form.

The sound.. the "music" the consonance and dissonance the playing against a melody or within it... The harmonics chosen.. all such things are what? A mixture of theory '/ rules and outright composition on the other end? Some can no doubt follow a form and make the music fit, or make the music and wait for the theory and "form" to be created to "explain" or try to understand what it is musically.

When a statement like

To put it another way, Emaj7 contains a D# (the major 7th), while B dorian contains a D natural (the minor 3rd) - not the scale of choice to cover both chords....

.. what exactly does it illustrate? So when the Dead Modal Mix B Dorian and E Ionian and use passing tones like D/D# and chromatics... or outright use B dorian it's "not... of choice"? Your choice? according to a "form" you would use in that tune? I'm not referring to meaningless freeform music.. Listen to the tune...

The idea of what exactly is consonance and dissonance might apply here. Why D and D# would prevent someone from "hearing" this... Have you played B dorian over Emaj7/Dmaj7? try Mixing Modes.. B dorian and E ionian... D/D# passing tones? Chromatics? Now the "feel" the sound is fine eh? Using D# dorian in the Emaj7 - Bm - A progression is a sweet sound eh? There's a whole lot in the ambiguous Eyes Of The World...

57tele
01-23-2012, 07:25 PM
Snip...

The idea of what exactly is consonance and dissonance might apply here. Why D and D# would prevent someone from "hearing" this... Have you played B dorian over Emaj7/Dmaj7? try Mixing Modes.. B dorian and E ionian... D/D# passing tones? Chromatics? Now the "feel" the sound is fine eh? Using D# dorian in the Emaj7 - Bm - A progression is a sweet sound eh? There's a whole lot in the ambiguous Eyes Of The World...

I suppose in broad principal, I agree with with you about chromaticism, etc, but are you saying that Garcia, for example, hung on a D# over that b minor? Or hung on the D natural over the Emaj7? I'm not comprehensively well-versed in Garcia's work, but have heard a fair bit of his playing and can't say I've ever heard an instance of this. Are there examples out there where he does?

russ6100
01-23-2012, 07:56 PM
Passing tones have nothing to do with this.

Say I want to hit a D#, the major 7th of Emaj7 - this is a chord tone, a strong sound, which is not contained within B Dorian.

JG sure wasn't thinking B Dorian. He was playing more vertically and addressing each chord - playing passing tones but not getting them from a mode (who does that?)....

Find me one more person on this globe that would suggest thinking B Dorian over an Emaj7.

Maybe it's a highly personal thing with you and you like it - I'm cool with that. :D

lhallam
01-23-2012, 08:01 PM
Unrelated observation:

G# minor pentatonic over Eyes has an interesting sound, be careful of that D# though.

Seraphine
01-23-2012, 08:50 PM
Unrelated observation:

G# minor pentatonic over Eyes has an interesting sound, be careful of that D# though. Yea G#minor is often used in one or the other of Eyes jams...

D# dorian is used as well.. it works quite well.... with the Emaj7-Bm-A progression.

I also suspect some are confused by Modal Mixtures... Using B dorian and E ionian seems to bewilder some. I wonder E Ionian and E Mixo bewilders as well... the ol' D/D# stumps some.. as in NO DON'T PLAY THAT! IT'S NOT DONE! yet...

Seraphine
01-23-2012, 09:09 PM
Passing tones have nothing to do with this.

Say I want to hit a D#, the major 7th of Emaj7 - this is a chord tone, a strong sound, which is not contained within B Dorian.

JG sure wasn't thinking B Dorian. He was playing more vertically and addressing each chord - playing passing tones but not getting them from a mode (who does that?)....

Find me one more person on this globe that would suggest thinking B Dorian over an Emaj7.

Maybe it's a highly personal thing with you and you like it - I'm cool with that. :D

Jerry Garcia wasn't thinking B dorian? Is this why Eyes Of The World is known for it's B Dorian Jam?...and it's Emaj7-Dmaj7

I won't argue about what other people hear lol... or can't hear.

Why someone would claim Jerry wasn't using B dorian is beyond me... modal mixtures was Jerry 101.... I already showed an example of b dorian and Emaj7-Dmaj7.

russ6100
01-23-2012, 09:56 PM
Jerry Garcia wasn't thinking B dorian? Is this why Eyes Of The World is known for it's B Dorian Jam?...and it's Emaj7-Dmaj7

I won't argue about what other people hear lol... or can't hear.

Why someone would claim Jerry wasn't using B dorian is beyond me... modal mixtures was Jerry 101.... I already showed an example of b dorian and Emaj7-Dmaj7.

During the "jam" part, I'm hearing Emaj7 to Bm7. B Dorian is fine for the Bm7 but not for the Emaj7. Listen to Jerry - he's approaching the Emaj7 chord from all sorts of angles. Jerry's big on chord tones connected by passing tones, among other things. G# minor pent is great on the Emaj7, a common device.

I'm just saying that if you lay on the D natural at all over the Emaj7 chord, it sounds like dooky - and with so many other approaches available, I'm just kinda puzzled why it would be anybody's "go to" scale prescription.

But if you can get it to work for you, that's what counts! :aok

57tele
01-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Yea G#minor is often used in one or the other of Eyes jams...

D# dorian is used as well.. it works quite well.... with the Emaj7-Bm-A progression.

I also suspect some are confused by Modal Mixtures... Using B dorian and E ionian seems to bewilder some. I wonder E Ionian and E Mixo bewilders as well... the ol' D/D# stumps some.. as in NO DON'T PLAY THAT! IT'S NOT DONE! yet...

I can assure you I'm not confused. I'm simply asking you to show me an example of Garcia emphasizing a d# offer the b minor or a d natural over the emaj7.

People aren't hearing a b Dorian over the emaj 7 part because he isn't using a b dorian over the emaj7 part. I have no idea why anybody would call it a "b Dorian jam." It's just not.

Seraphine
01-23-2012, 11:35 PM
Who said anything about D natural over Emaj7? The D and D# are mere tones between the E ionian and the B dorian... see? The Modal Mixture of b dorian and e ionian used in the beginning ambiguous Emaj7-Dmaj7...

This is what I meant by b dorian fitting so well with E major as in "scales" modes... Eyes plays with b dorian in the beginning.. the best way to figure this is to listen to the beginning and run the E ionian and B dorian above the 12th fret... As Jerry does.... and of course in more places as it progresses...

The D# in the Emajor7-Bm-A progression requires trying it as well to best see it... or rather hear it. .. as in D#dorian.... sweet as.

and sorry 57tele... I didn't mean to imply you were confused at all.. just that some people really seem to be.. This medium isn't the best for relaying what we could in 5 minutes if we were jammin' together in a room...


There's no doubt Jerry comes at this from all kinds of angles lol... I play the same way... Thinking Jerry "big" on "chord tones" connected by passing notes... means what? lol... something about Jerry Jammin' a B dorian / E ionian mixture? Jerry was BIG on Modal jammin' and Modal Mixing.....

russ6100
01-24-2012, 12:05 AM
Who said anything about D natural over Emaj7?

You did. Especially by implication.

Now try and follow this and maybe try addressing specifically what I'm illustrating here, please.

You are holding up B Dorian to use over Emaj7.

B Dorian = A Major.

So really, you're saying you'd rather use A major over Emaj7 than E Major. (In the context of this Emaj7 - Bm7 jam).

What is the difference?

*One* note.

You're getting the D natural in A major.

That D natural is the *only* difference - otherwise, the E major scale is all the same notes.

So, it would seem that you are intending on using that D natural, otherwise, why wouldn't you just use E major instead of A Major?

dmczern
01-24-2012, 10:32 AM
Bumping this thread because I am beginning to work with this book. If someone would like to simplify "modal vamps"for me I would greatly appreciate it. I realize that some very smart/outstanding players have kind of done this already but I'm still unclear. Thanks to all of you, you guys are great.

Dave

Hi guys, sorry to bother you. But I am quoting myself in order to learn this approach from Mick Goodrick's book. I want to get started with my looper and would love a simple explanation and examples as I have not quite caught on to this idea. Pardon my ignorance, seriously.

Thanks

JonR
01-24-2012, 10:57 AM
Hi guys, sorry to bother you. But I am quoting myself in order to learn this approach from Mick Goodrick's book. I want to get started with my looper and would love a simple explanation and examples as I have not quite caught on to this idea. Pardon my ignorance, seriously.

ThanksThere should be plenty of help in the earlier posts in this thread, but as simply as I can put it:

A "vamp" is a short loop of 2, 3 or 4 chords, probably no more than 2 bars in length, cycling round and round as long as you want. It could even be just one chord. The idea of "vamp" essentially refers to its unfixed duration: it repeats for as long as you want.

A "modal vamp" means a vamp that produces a modal sound (as opposed to a major or minor key sound), or at least allows a scale to used on it which produces a modal sound.

Examples:

Vamp in A dorian: Am7-D7 - 2 or 4 beats each.
An Am7 chord alone would do, but would not imply dorian on its own; aeolian and phrygian would also fit.

Vamp in E mixolydian: E-E-D-A. The E must last longer than either the D or A (otherwise it might sound like key of A major). You could use E and D alone (again making E longer), or just an E7 chord. (or E9, E13, E7sus4.)

Vamp in C lydian: C-C-C-D/C. Again, the C chord needs to dominate. The "lydian" effect comes from using a secondary chord containing F# (such as D). Keeping a C bass is not essential, but helps underline the keynote (because lydian is one of the weaker modes).
For a single chord, Cmaj7#11 would do.

Vamp in E phrygian: Em-Em-Em-F.

Vamp in A aeolian: Am-(G)-F. (as in All Along the Watchtower).

With all these, the understanding is that the first chord would also be the final chord when you eventually stop the vamp.

In modal jazz, they would tend to use just a single chord, usually built in 4ths. And not always one which dictated the mode on its own.
Eg, Dm11 for a D dorian piece; or D7sus4 for a D mixolydian piece. (Even though either chord would accommodate at least 3 different scales.)

Generally speaking, with any modal vamp, it's a good idea to avoid the tonic chord of the relative major - unless you use it as merely a quick passing chord (as with the A in E mixolydian). Eg, try adding a G at any point in that Am7-D7 vamp: immediately the "A dorian" effect disappears, and it becomes merely a ii-V in G major.

dmczern
01-24-2012, 11:04 AM
JonR, thank you so much for taking the time to write this out for me. I am perfectly clear now! Have a fantastic day, thanks again.

Dave

JonR
01-24-2012, 11:53 AM
JonR, thank you so much for taking the time to write this out for me. I am perfectly clear now! Have a fantastic day, thanks again.

DaveNo problem. In case you want examples of vamps from famous recordings, try these:

A DORIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NsJ84YV1oA - the whole piece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iSXrZYhJt4 - from 1:13 only. Am-Bm, rather than Am-D.

G MIXOLYDIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8x9_WEl1g
- up to 0:21. The tune continues in G mixolydian for a while but goes somewhere different at 0:32 (G dorian, to be precise).

E MIXOLYDIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGufQk9QOdM
- up to 0:32. [In a fascinating coincidence, it goes to E dorian there - the exact same change at the exact same time as All Blues. And both tunes are in triple time. We can wonder if Lennon was channelling Miles at that time...]

C LYDIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SINl5JY7LhI
- from 0:14 to 0:44 only (the tune continues in C lydian for a while, but goes to some other lydian chords after that).

C AEOLIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bng3agUOYiI

RLD
01-24-2012, 12:27 PM
Would you guys agree with the following explanation of "modal vamping", which Mick Goodrick mentions in the Advancing Guitarist?

Thanks


In simpler terms, pick a mode.


C Dorian

To create a mode vamp, what is the Parent Scale of C Dorian, the answer is B flat major.

what are the Major Triads built off B flat, answer is E flat and F.

So take those two modes, and place a C in the bass note over them moving between E Flat and F chords to create a fundamentally Dorian sounding system.

Then improvise over the Eb/C F/C progression using C Dorian.

Just an example of how to create them... try E Lydian

the Parent scale of E lydian is B.

The IV and V B major is E and F#

Use a chord progression of F#/E to E and improvise an E lydian scale over this vamp.

Hey DM,
This is also the way Frank Gambale describes creating modal progressions for practice.
I run through these every practice session.
Works great.

dmczern
01-24-2012, 12:40 PM
Hey DM,
This is also the way Frank Gambale describes creating modal progressions for practice.
I run through these every practice session.
Works great.

Thanks RLD!

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 02:05 PM
You did. Especially by implication.

Now try and follow this and maybe try addressing specifically what I'm illustrating here, please.

You are holding up B Dorian to use over Emaj7.

B Dorian = A Major.

I've been warned that Modes are often misunderstood and I'm beginning to find it interesting. B Dorian does NOT=A. Now if you want to "think" of b dorian as a "relative mode" of A and not as a MODE itself.... We have two different paths to decide on.


So really, you're saying you'd rather use A major over Emaj7 than E Major. (In the context of this Emaj7 - Bm7 jam).I never mentioned using A ionian. B dorian is NOT A ionian.... and I said Emaj7-Dmaj7 vamp... NO Bm7.

What is the difference?Do you see and hear the difference between A ionian and b dorian?



*One* note.

You're getting the D natural in A major.

That D natural is the *only* difference - otherwise, the E major scale is all the same notes.

So, it would seem that you are intending on using that D natural, otherwise, why wouldn't you just use E major instead of A Major?OK I see what you guys are on about.. so YES for D as a note... it certainly is tossed in... yet why question it?

Music doesn't need adhere to a theoretic form-ula.. often it flys way past analytical understanding and theory is left trying to "interpret" it... Any breakdown of a good Grateful Dead Jam will provide examples of that happening.. This Bdorian in Eyes is an example and Eyes is also an example of Modal Mixtures.

What theory is used with the Grateful Dead might be a concern eh? George Russell had a Brilliant approach to music in my book.. Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis were outright enlightened with it... as well as many many others.... He was a Major enfluence and one of the"founding fathers" of Modal jammin' in Jazz.

Why not work this out on gtr, get used to B dorian in this context ( Emaj7-Dmaj7) and Vamp? Then play E ionian... now practice Mixing modes... the issue here.. or half of the issue I wonder, is thinking bdorian = A ionian... You asked my thinking behind this, in the way I play.... B dorian is NOT A ionian. If the D-D# is a gnat is the Bm in the tune ( or in any Emaj key ) a camel?

Have you tried playing bdorian over this emaj7-Dmaj7 number? have you tried mixing the modes ( b dorian / e ionian )? You can use chromatic's to blend till the ears are pleased... If a D in the vamp sounds "dooky".. does Jerry sound dooky using one?

The Dmaj7 already gives D some prominence and there is nothing wrong with ( essentially ) a syncopated D with any Emaj7 in here is there?

As Jerry said.. "If you don't like where it's going, turn on a dime"... and I will add... be intrepid and don't fear trying to go somewhere...

russ6100
01-24-2012, 02:56 PM
B dorian is NOT A ionian.... and I said Emaj7-Dmaj7 vamp... NO Bm7.



Then I'm afraid we're at an impasse - B Dorian contains the exact same note pool as A Ionian. And the "Eyes" jam is Emaj7 - Bm7, at least it is in the YouTube clip you posted.

Perhaps the conspicuous absence of posting by the other "usual suspects" here indicates that I'm on Candid Camera.....?

JonR
01-24-2012, 04:00 PM
Then I'm afraid we're at an impasse - B Dorian contains the exact same note pool as A Ionian.I suspect Seraphine - if I can be so bold as to attempt an interpretation of his posts - is saying B dorian has a different keynote from A ionian.
Ie, B dorian is a minor mode and A ionian is major.
Which of course we all know, and is quite irrelevant in this context anyhow.

Perhaps the conspicuous absence of posting by the other "usual suspects" here indicates that I'm on Candid Camera.....?Well, I'm here. Trying to think of a way of scoring against Seraphine without him moving the goalposts... (and wondering if it's worth it anyway)
:(

What the hell, let's give it a go, I got nothing better to do for the next 15 minutes or so...

russ6100
01-24-2012, 04:19 PM
I fear the integrity of the goalposts has been rendered into a state of dodgy-ness for having been moved a number of times which far exceeds the manufacturer's warranty.....

JonR
01-24-2012, 04:29 PM
I've been warned that Modes are often misunderstood and I'm beginning to find it interesting. B Dorian does NOT=A. True. Except as a pitch collection (IOW relative), which is what counts here.

I never mentioned using A ionian. B dorian is NOT A ionian.... and I said Emaj7-Dmaj7 vamp... NO Bm7.Well, Dmaj7 and Bm7 are interchangeable as far as the pitch collection goes. Doesn't really matter whether we call it B dorian, A major or D lydian.

Do you see and hear the difference between A ionian and b dorian?Of course. What does that have to do with this track?

OK I see what you guys are on about.. so YES for D as a note... it certainly is tossed in... yet why question it? Because it doesn't belong on the Emaj7 chord.

Music doesn't need adhere to a theoretic form-ula.. Yes it does. Not always a simple one, admittedly.

often it flys way past analytical understanding and theory is left trying to "interpret" it... Sometimes, maybe, but not in this case.

Any breakdown of a good Grateful Dead Jam will provide examples of that happening.. I doubt it.

This Bdorian in Eyes is an example and Eyes is also an example of Modal Mixtures. It is? How so?

What theory is used with the Grateful Dead might be a concern eh?Yes. What theory do you think that would be?

George Russell had a Brilliant approach to music in my book.. Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis were outright enlightened with it... as well as many many others.... He was a Major enfluence and one of the"founding fathers" of Modal jammin' in Jazz.What does that have to do with the Grateful Dead? Or with this track in particular?


Why not work this out on gtr, get used to B dorian in this context ( Emaj7-Dmaj7) and Vamp? OK, but I don't like the D note on the Emaj7. Why should I get used to something that sounds wrong?

Then play E ionian... What, on both chords? Now we get a D# over the Dmaj7, that's even worse than D natural on Emaj7.

Now, if you mean E ionian on Emaj7 and B dorian on the Dmaj7, I'm with you (and I think we all would be, pretty much). If so, why don't you say so? Or if not, why don't you be more clear that you mean the same pitch collection on both chords - and then explain how the "wrong notes" can be made to work.

now practice Mixing modes... the issue here.. or half of the issue I wonder, is thinking bdorian = A ionian... You asked my thinking behind this, in the way I play.... B dorian is NOT A ionian.In one sense, agreed. But also irrelevant here.

If the D-D# is a gnat is the Bm in the tune ( or in any Emaj key ) a camel?I don't understand that analogy, and I don't suppose you do either.

Have you tried playing bdorian over this emaj7-Dmaj7 number?I have - just for the sake or argument - and like I said, I think the D natural is wrong on the Emaj7. Do you think it sounds OK?

have you tried mixing the modes ( b dorian / e ionian )? You mean one on one chord and one on the other? Or each one on both chords, indiscriminately?
Obviously E ionian is good on Emaj7 and "B dorian" on Dmaj7 (although it would be better called D lydian or A major - there's no sensible reason to call it "B dorian" if the chord is not Bm7).
Any other combination of those scales simply doesn't fit the chords so well.

You can use chromatic's to blend till the ears are pleased... If a D in the vamp sounds "dooky".. does Jerry sound dooky using one? But does he use one on the Emaj7?? If so, give us a time reference with a link.
If he does, I suspect it would be a chromatic passing note, as you might be implying. IOW, between C# and D#, in either direction. Naturally, that's got nothing to with B dorian mode.

The Dmaj7 already gives D some prominence and there is nothing wrong with ( essentially ) a syncopated D with any Emaj7 in here is there?Not as a chromatic approach to D#, no. But that isn't what you were arguing earlier.

As Jerry said.. "If you don't like where it's going, turn on a dime"... and I will add... be intrepid and don't fear trying to go somewhere...Sure. Miles Davis said "do not fear wrong notes; there are none."
What he meant was what you NOW seem to be implying, which is that a chromaticism can always be resolved, or be made to work as an alteration in some situations. I'm not sure that's relevant here.
I don't know if Miles ever hung on a b7 on a maj7 chord, without resolving it. He might have. I'm more interested in where Jerry Garcia did.

But I think you're moving the goalposts, like I said. You started off saying - or seeming to - that B dorian is fine on both chords. Then you (finally) admit that the D is chromatic on the Emaj7.
And it still isn't clear where that leaves us - because you don't quite go on to say exactly how the D is "OK" on Emaj7. Chromatics need proper handling to not sound like a "wrong note". Do you disagree? How would you handle it?

I haven't listened to Garcia's solo on the track in question. I take it you have. I also take it that you know every note in it, or at least all the times he used a D on the Emaj7 chord. (Otherwise what's the basis of your argument?) So let's have the data.

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Meanwhile Eyes Of The World is famous for it's B dorian ( NOT A ionian ) jam... The Modal mixing or B dorian and E ionian is classic Garcia. Russ you asked who else "thinks" this way.... Jerry used these two modes mixed and a D note through the Emaj7-Dmaj7 vamp beginning the tune.... so... what exactly is your query concerning that?

russ6100
01-24-2012, 05:00 PM
Meanwhile Eyes Of The World is famous for it's B dorian ( NOT A ionian ) jam... The Modal mixing or B dorian and E ionian is classic Garcia. Russ you asked who else "thinks" this way.... Jerry used these two modes mixed and a D note through the Emaj7-Dmaj7 vamp beginning the tune.... so... what exactly is your query concerning that?

Now you say the mix of B Dorian and E Ionian is classic Garcia....the goal posts are on their own set of wheels!

RE: The vamp at the begining - it's all Emaj7 - the vamp has *NO* Dmaj7.

If you hear a D natural during this, it's a approach note to the chord tone D#, the major 7th of E maj7.

Who is going to leverage another mode and say they used it strictly as source material for a passing tone? :huh

:dunno

:facepalm

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 05:42 PM
Well, Dmaj7 and Bm7 are interchangeable as far as the pitch collection goes.

|--EM7-|--E6-or Dmaj7-|-EM7--|
|--9---|--5-------7---|--4---|
|--8---|--6-------6---|--4---|
|--9---|--6-------7---|--6---|
|--7---|--7-----------|--7---|
|------|--------------|------|
Here is a basic layout for the Vamp. If you like this tune and I suspect you'll love it Jon, you can find many renditions of it from either archive.org collections of recorded shows or even utube.

You'll find The Grateful Dead played tunes various ways and with various forms at different times.. I also didn't watch the video I posted, as I know this tune well...

Initially I stated ...
Or take Emaj7 and Dmaj7 Vamp and do B Dorian... it's all relative and as Jerry Garcia said... "All the pieces of the puzzle begin to look the same"

...as you noted Jon, you are copesetic with a D falling on any Dmaj7... even considering that tact.. B Dorian could well be used in such a Vamp... providing you're happy with where you place a D note~* :)

One goal-post I seem to have introduced was using Eyes Of The World as an example for Russ... This moved on to Modal Mixtures... as in B dorian / E ionian... granted this brought out chromatic and also "passing tones" in working the mix....

I've looked for a decent transcription of this tune for those interested. I've played this tune for so many decades that looking at someones work like this is fun... I hope it helps with working with at least some renditions of this lovely tune...

Jdark also mentions the ambiguity in the tune and Dominant B usually in the key of E, so it gives a brilliant view.. a job well done actually.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FclsHh8A9DkJ:www.jdarks.com/files/Eyes_of_the_World.pdf+eyes+of+the+world+dead+key+o f&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a

*******
What confused me was questioning my initial statement... If someone can't do ONLY a B dorian through any Emaj7-Dmaj7 Vamp... Then I can't help them, except to suggest a Modal Mixture like Eyes... Even then the D note might be a thorn for some who I can only imagine hasn't figured what to DO WITH IT... at this point I say as you... keep that D off the Emaj7, I wouldn't want someone to burn the ears off their head lol.

Writing out what I do ( being it's from all kinds of angles at different times or moods ) with this tune would be very tedious and I do sincerely wish we were all in a room jammin'... something could be done in 5 seconds rather than 5 bloody hours!

Trying to pull a D note thorn out of a Mode on Vamp thread might be a matter of "language or even theory" used or goal-posts... but it can be handled in a new york minute in person.... or on stage....

So I guess I'll try to help clarify assumptions, confusions and the audacity some people have to play what is and what should never be.... Like a simple note... D

57tele
01-24-2012, 05:53 PM
And yet you apparently cannot supply us with a single instance of Garcia actually playing that D natural over the Emaj7.

JonR
01-24-2012, 06:19 PM
OK - I've now gone to the trouble of transcribing Garcia's solo in that video Seraphine posted back in post #28; the one that starts at 2:33.

I can report that he does indeed use the occasional D natural on the E chord, and the occasional D# on the Bm7 (the bass moves around a fair amount, but it seems to be more Bm7 than Dmaj7). Firstly, the vamp is 2 bars per chord, so plenty of time for a modal sound on each chord, if indeed that's the idea.
Now to be precise about each occasion of those "wrong notes".

Bar 3. D# note on Bm7 chord. Chromatic approach to E. Beat 3 is 4 16ths, running F#-D#-E-F# - in fact it's more like a slide up from the D# to F#)
That's followed immediately by a loud low G natural on beat 4, a clear wrong note: he's just let the open string ring by mistake. (Just listen out at 2:39: <twang> ouch!)
Arguably - regarding the D# - he was deliberately applying E major scale on the Bm7. Who knows? But it's on a weak beat and directly before the E so my money's on approach note. Or (given the clumsy G) a simple mistake.

Bar 8. D# on Bm7 again. Much more clearly a simple passing note in this case, in the middle of a run, C#-D-D#-E (16ths on beat 3).

Bar 12. Another D# on Bm7. This one is more interesting as it lands right on beat 4, following a C#, and pulling off via D natural back to C#. So it seems to be a clear choice to play it as an accent, not an approach.
The possible explanation (the way he might have been thinking) is it's an anticipation of the following Emaj7. A whole beat early is quite a lot, but I think he gets away with it. (It's right on 2:59 if you want to listen for it - it slips by quite innocently.)
In fact...

Bar 13. ...that phrase leads into a repeated D#-D-C#-B set of 16ths on beat 1 of the Emaj7. (See, a D natural as a passing note there.)

Bar 17 finds another D# as a passing note on the Bm7 (E-D#-D).

That's as far as I cared to go.

But aside from the above there are a whole lot of other chromaticisms going on; and all of them are passing notes. Eg phrases like D#-E-F-F# on Emaj7. (In fact the whole solo begins with a chromatic pull-off phrase: F#-F-E-D#.) Or F#-G#-A-A#-B on the Bm7. Or G#-G-F# as a connection between beat 4 of Emaj7 and beat 1 of Bm7. This is not "modal mixture"; it's plain ordinary chromaticism.

So, to interpret this solo modally, we have to say: E ionian on the Emaj7 and B dorian (A major) on the Bm7. Or, if we regard the whole tune (reasonably) as in the key of E, then it's E mixolydian on the Bm7, which is the minor v chord of the key.
The important point is that that doesn't exclude chromatic passing notes. Ie, the use of a D on the Emaj7 chord doesn't mean he's thinking "E mixolydian" there (still less "B dorian"); because - the only time it occurs in all those 20 bars I listened to - it's clearly between D# and C#.

Most of what he plays is runs of 16ths, and many notes are underplayed (inaudible) but it's possible to discern some aiming at chord tones. Particularly the maj7 and 3rd on the E (the main notes that distinguish that chord from the Bm7). Not so much on the Bm7, where he roams around a little more; the 3rd, 5th and 7th often occur on beats, but not enough (IMO) to say he was clearly thinking in chord tones.
IOW, if we're guessing what he's thinking, from this evidenced, it's 50/50 modes and 50/50 chord tones; can't tell really. Call it how you see it.
But pretty obviously, he's not applying modes where they don't belong (eg B dorian on Emaj7). He knows the basic correct scales, and is using those, but adding occasional chromatic embellishments.

JonR
01-24-2012, 06:27 PM
If you like this tune and I suspect you'll love it Jon, you can find many renditions of it from either archive.org collections of recorded shows or even utube.See above post ;).
I do like his playing, btw. Nothing very exciting, just clean and nicely-toned. Very much the way I'd aim to play myself on something like this, which is probably why I don't find it remarkable.

You'll find The Grateful Dead played tunes various ways and with various forms at different times.. I also didn't watch the video I posted, as I know this tune well...Ah-ha...


Initially I stated ...


...as you noted Jon, you are copesetic with a D falling on any Dmaj7... even considering that tact.. B Dorian could well be used in such a Vamp... providing you're happy with where you place a D note~* :)Misuse of terms. If the chord is Dmaj7, the mode is not B dorian; it's D lydian. In fact it seems the chord is more like Bm7, so B dorian would be correct.

One goal-post I seem to have introduced was using Eyes Of The World as an example for Russ... This moved on to Modal Mixtures... as in B dorian / E ionian... granted this brought out chromatic and also "passing tones" in working the mix....OK, see above again. You are vindicated to some extent. (I suspect it's just your way of expressing yourself which is frequently ambiguous.)

What confused me was questioning my initial statement... If someone can't do ONLY a B dorian through any Emaj7-Dmaj7 Vamp... Then I can't help them, except to suggest a Modal Mixture like Eyes... Even then the D note might be a thorn for some who I can only imagine hasn't figured what to DO WITH IT... at this point I say as you... keep that D off the Emaj7, I wouldn't want someone to burn the ears off their head lol.Well, OK. You seem to be agreeing with russ now; I don't think he was saying anything other than that.

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 06:43 PM
And yet you apparently cannot supply us with a single instance of Garcia actually playing that D natural over the Emaj7.
-14----------------|-------------------------------------------------------|
----17p16p15p14----|-14-15-16-16-------------------------------------------|
----------------16-|----------------13-14-14/16-16p14-14-14p13-------13----|
-------------------|-------------------------------------------16p14----14-|
-------------------|-------------------------------------------------------|
-------------------|-Emaj7-------------------------------------------------
Granted this is a transcription, yet Jerry playing a D over Emaj7 is no big deal.. Notice a D in this? Chromatic lines and passing notes alas Jerry? Please don't ask me to find other examples lol.. I love LISTENING to The Grateful Dead... outright Master Muso's eh?

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 06:57 PM
Well, OK. You seem to be agreeing with russ now; I don't think he was saying anything other than that.

lol nice one... for Russ ( or anyone hesitant ) I would agree stay away from the D!!!

...but not for me man... I don't fear it and use it on a Emaj7 like casting a charm on virgin ears.... and it sounds just fine.. as in This is how you do it... this is how it's done...

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 07:02 PM
See above post ;).
I do like his playing, btw. Nothing very exciting, just clean and nicely-toned. Very much the way I'd aim to play myself on something like this, which is probably why I don't find it remarkable.

This is good.. I can weave those spells and play Jerry out the Yin Yang... I have my own style of course, but have long loved Jerry's playing and approach.... Now... Let's listen to Bob Weir! as his playing is phenomenal too...

As for the "Bass" being all over the place lol... All I can do is laugh at that one man!.. and smile smile smile

russ6100
01-24-2012, 07:07 PM
OK - I think I get it.

You would choose B Dorian to play over Emaj7, not F#Dorian*, which contains all "right" notes, precisely because B Dorian contains the D natural, which you wield as sort of a secret weapon as it were.....

Well played sir! :bow

:D



* You seem to like Dorian, so....

JonR
01-24-2012, 07:45 PM
-14----------------|-------------------------------------------------------|
----17p16p15p14----|-14-15-16-16-------------------------------------------|
----------------16-|----------------13-14-14/16-16p14-14-14p13-------13----|
-------------------|-------------------------------------------16p14----14-|
-------------------|-------------------------------------------------------|
-------------------|-Emaj7-------------------------------------------------
Granted this is a transcription, yet Jerry playing a D over Emaj7 is no big deal.. Notice a D in this? Chromatic lines and passing notes alas Jerry? Uh-huh, chromatic passing notes. Both Ds there are between C# and D#. Normal stuff. The D is not an "avoid note" in those circumstances.
This is not the kind of use of D russ and I were saying would be "wrong". This is not B dorian mode (or any other mode of A major). It's the E major scale with a passing b7.

Seraphine
01-24-2012, 09:01 PM
Uh-huh, chromatic passing notes. Both Ds there are between C# and D#. Normal stuff. The D is not an "avoid note" in those circumstances.
This is not the kind of use of D russ and I were saying would be "wrong". This is not B dorian mode (or any other mode of A major). It's the E major scale with a passing b7.

So true Jon..... After listening to Jerry playing for over 40 years, I'm never caught by surprise with anything he has played. I've loved his style and playing for a very long time. As I stated before.. ah... somewhere... a D (dedicated or not ) over an Emaj7 is no big deal for Jerry and at times you'll find it, and much more if you listen to him a lot....

For some reason I hear Steve Harley singing in me 'ead.... Come Up And See Me... Make Me Smile.................. which is pretty much how I'm beginning to feel about all this.

qpJ0cyXbMbI

JonR
01-25-2012, 04:00 AM
As I stated before.. ah... somewhere... a D (dedicated or not ) over an Emaj7 is no big deal for Jerry and at times you'll find it, and much more if you listen to him a lot....See, that's the trouble with your posts. Vague. Easy to misunderstand. Contentious implications (maybe accidental).

We're in the context of a theory thread seeking information about modes (vamps in particular). Not idle banter about how cool Jerry Garcia is, between two musicians who can read between the lines of what we're each saying (so I might be able to guess how he used a D on Emaj7).
Here, the whole point about how the D is used is fundamental. You can't just say "a D (dedicated or not ) over an Emaj7 is no big deal for Jerry and at times you'll find it", and not expect replies that contain at least an element of :huh.

(a) I don't know what you mean by "dedicated"
(b) aside from that, I'm sure the statement is true, but it tells us nothing of any use. As it stands, it's a waste of time and space. Mainly, we know that D doesn't fit Emaj7, so we need to know how Jerry makes such a wrong note sound right. Yes? (Just saying it's "no big deal" is no help at all, and is rather irritating in fact.) You're not interested in telling us how he does it, which is frustrating. We have to guess. We have to go to the track itself (like I did) to try and find out. (In fact you did, belatedly, post some useful tab, which illustrates how he used D - on one occasion anyway - but you still don't explain it.)

And - whaddya know! - it's a plain old chromaticism, a passing note between 2 diatonic notes. Nothing to do with modes. Nothing to do with "B dorian", an irrelevant and misleading implication (admittedly probably down to carelessness on your part rather than ignorance). We've been led down your garden path through post after post, and find ourselves back where we started. That's an hour or two of my life I'll never get back. (And OK, that has to be my fault as much as yours :rolleyes:)

There IS a relevance to this thread, in that it can be argued Garcia was thinking modally. But the D on the Emaj7 is irrelevant to that. It would have been very easy to clarify the issue the first time you stated it, but you chose not to, preferring to ramble on with unsupported and contentions assertions about modes. Aargh!
(OK that's off my chest now...:) no offence intended.)

huw
01-25-2012, 04:18 AM
...http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FclsHh8A9DkJ:www.jdarks.com/files/Eyes_of_the_World.pdf+eyes+of+the+world+dead+key+o f&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FclsHh8A9DkJ:www.jdarks.com/files/Eyes_of_the_World.pdf+eyes+of+the+world+dead+key+o f&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a)...

Interesting link about the song. It ends with this remark about the mode choice:

...To navigate this chord change, we can use a modal approach. During the two-bar vamp over Emaj7, play EIonian, otherwise known as an E major scale. In the third and fourth bar of each four-bar phrase, you can playE Mixolydian or A major over the Bm/A change...

Seems clear enough - the modes are separated. :)

JonR
01-25-2012, 05:35 AM
Interesting link about the song. It ends with this remark about the mode choice:


Seems clear enough - the modes are separated. :)Thanks, huw. I didn't spot that link earlier.

russ6100
01-25-2012, 05:40 AM
lol nice one... for Russ ( or anyone hesitant ) I would agree stay away from the D!!!

...but not for me man... I don't fear it and use it on a Emaj7 like casting a charm on virgin ears.... and it sounds just fine.. as in This is how you do it... this is how it's done...

Oh brother. Why the condescension? So I'm "hesitant" because I don't feel the need to convolute things by commandeering yet another unrelated mode to get my D natural?

Maybe post some clips and then we'll all see how it's done....