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frankie5fingers
02-10-2010, 07:19 PM
Any consensus on some good 5E3 mods? Something specific I can give to a competant tech. Looking for, in order of importance: 1) a mod to take away the fizz when driving the power tubes (at lower and mid gain). 2) A mod to add some chime and sparkle, and 3) a mod to add a little "fatness" to the overall tone. Thanks

mbratch
02-10-2010, 08:28 PM
What kind of speaker do you have in your 5E3 right now? And what else have you tried? I think a speaker change just might positively impact all three of your categories depending upon what you have now.

TweeDLX
02-10-2010, 08:59 PM
The Paul C mod helped reduce the fizzies in mine. Good speaker does make a big diff.

59Vampire
02-10-2010, 09:20 PM
I have a victoria 5e3 with a jensen and use a les paul to boot. I went through extensive tube swaps until I found the righ selection that allowed my lester to play nicely in the sand box.

Then I got this thing called an Ayan Smooth and Slim. Its a passive selective frequency filter of some sort that pretty much removes all flubbiness and and fizz. It works great. It allowed me to go to a more tradidional tube choice for V2. However, it does take away some of the warmth that the tweed delux is known for but after a while the benefits far outweigh the perceived differences I was thinking of trying a celestion blue but im not experienced with speakers o I pretty much left that part alone.

frankie5fingers
02-11-2010, 07:54 AM
I can't find the Paul C mod - the links on the old posts aren't gettin' me there. What is that? Thanks

tommytomcat
02-11-2010, 08:53 AM
The easist thing to try first is putting a 100K resistor/grid stopper on the cathodyne PI grid. i.e. V2A plate > .022uF cap > 100K resistor > V2B grid (pin 7). You can go as high as 1m, I've read.. but a little (100K-220K) goes a long way. I'd try this before doing the Paul C mod.

Also.. if you have a heavy duty ceramic 50-100W w/ 1.5"+ voice coil speaker in your amp, your tone will be stiffled.. especially with humbuckers. Look into a 20-30w speaker with a 1" or 1.25" voice coil. You'll get some chime back. Cheap suggestions: Weber Signature Series 12S ceramic, Mojotone AV12C. More expensive: Weber 12A125A 30W light dope or 12F125A.

Tubes: You've got to have a decent 12AY7 or 5751 in V1. The Tung Sol 12AX7 in v2 would be a good match for a 12AY7 and I like a NOS 12AT7 matched up with the 5751 in V1. Output tubes: the Tung Sol RI 6V6's will give you more sparkle than JJ and Electro Harmonics 6V6's.

Circuit considerations: change the V1 bright channel's coupling cap to a .022uF and lower the shared V1 cathode bypass cap to 10uF/25v. Play your strat/tele's through the normal channel, P90s & humbuckers through the bright channel. I'd also lower the PI coupling caps from .1uF to .047uF. The lower the value of the coupling cap, the less bass frequencies it's going to pass.

go7
02-11-2010, 10:25 AM
An nos 5Y3 rectifier is essential. New production does not meet specs. Notice that most if not all builders offer an nos rectifier stock.
This was discussed on TGP and amp builders agreed new production 5Y3 do not meet specs. The good news is nos 5Y3 are cheap and plentiful. Good luck.

frankie5fingers
02-11-2010, 12:26 PM
Thanks guys. I play it through a cab with 1 - 30 watt Wizard and 1 - 30 watt Blue. Tube-wise I switch between old stuff and new reissues, 12ax and 12at RCA, Amperex, Mullard, and Tungsram, as well as some new stuff - JJs, TS and Mullard reissue. I use mostly the old stuff though, and so far I like the Amperex or Mullard 12AT7 in the PI and either a Tungsram or Mullard AX7 in number 1. It's a beefed up chassis that's cathode bias and uses 5881s (old TS or new reissues) instead of 6V6 - I use an RCA 5UGB rectifier. The tubes have made a big difference, no doubt. It's a closed back cab and I'm not suffering too much with a flabby bass, it's the fizziness at 11:00 to 3:00 I'm trying to defeat, while adding some chime and fatness.

LowellH
02-11-2010, 03:31 PM
The easist thing to try first is putting a 100K resistor/grid stopper on the cathodyne PI grid. i.e. V2A plate > .022uF cap > 100K resistor > V2B grid (pin 7). You can go as high as 1m, I've read.. but a little (100K-220K) goes a long way. I'd try this before doing the Paul C mod.

I concur.

koen
09-02-2010, 07:24 AM
The easist thing to try first is putting a 100K resistor/grid stopper on the cathodyne PI grid. i.e. V2A plate > .022uF cap > 100K resistor > V2B grid (pin 7). You can go as high as 1m, I've read.. but a little (100K-220K) goes a long way. I'd try this before doing the Paul C mod.

Would this 100k resistor be placed before or after the 1M resistor that goes to the 56k resistor?

Trout
09-02-2010, 07:28 AM
I can't find the Paul C mod - the links on the old posts aren't gettin' me there. What is that? Thanks

This one?

http://www.recproaudio.com/diy_pro_audio/diy_files/tweed_deluxe/5e3_ampeg_mod.jpg

Gris
09-02-2010, 07:29 AM
Quality 12AY7, right speaker, coupling cap value change and above all else JUMPER the channels correctly... output iron makes a diff too

TweeDLX
09-02-2010, 08:46 AM
Would this 100k resistor be placed before or after the 1M resistor that goes to the 56k resistor?
After. You can either run directly to the grid pin from the 1M, or install some sort of bridging device (terminal strip, eyelet hole, turret, etc).

koen
09-02-2010, 08:56 AM
After. You can either run directly to the grid pin from the 1M, or install some sort of bridging device (terminal strip, eyelet hole, turret, etc).

Thanks, I'll probably use a switch to go back and forward. I think the chassis of my Mission already has some holes for that.

TNO
09-03-2010, 11:18 AM
My setup is adapted from some of the old Gibson amps: .02 coupling caps with Sozos or Jupiters, 30-10-10 filters, no bapass cap on the 6V6s cathode resistor, 5751 in V1.

hasserl
09-03-2010, 11:29 AM
V1 cathode bypass cap changed to 4.7uf, coupling caps changed to .022uf. PaulC mod if you want to smooth out the distortion from the PI. If you want to broaden the response curve from the volume controls change the Vol control circuit to the 6G3 brown Deluxe style. Since there is only one Tone control, you can either use a dual pot and add tone control for both channels, but my preference is to leave off the tone controls from the pre amp, add a bright cap for the bright channel (500pf) and add a post PI "cut" control for a tone control.

gtrnstuff
09-03-2010, 04:01 PM
these links worked for me last week re Paul C Mod

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=769604

Be sure to scroll down to the second set

Trout
09-03-2010, 04:35 PM
these links worked for me last week re Paul C Mod

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=769604

Be sure to scroll down to the second set

Its the same mod I posted earlier, just labeled differently as an ampeg mod.

http://www.recproaudio.com/diy_pro_audio/diy_files/tweed_deluxe/5e3_ampeg_mod.jpg

gtrnstuff
09-03-2010, 10:28 PM
It looked familiar, but I wanted to provide the text as well. Paul C does say he referenced an Ampeg schematic, to give credit where credit is due.

TweeDLX
09-05-2010, 12:33 PM
The easist thing to try first is putting a 100K resistor/grid stopper on the cathodyne PI grid. i.e. V2A plate > .022uF cap > 100K resistor > V2B grid (pin 7). You can go as high as 1m, I've read.. but a little (100K-220K) goes a long way. I'd try this before doing the Paul C mod.

I tried the 100K grid stopper on the PI, and it was OK, but when I changed it to a 330K, it really made a difference! The Valve Wizard site says you should "use a big grid stopper" on a cathodyne/split-load PI to smooth it out when overdriven. Pretty cool. Thanks for the info Tommy!:D

Mike

Rod
09-05-2010, 07:16 PM
I had a Victoria 5E3 and the biggest changes for the best were changing the speaker to a hefty Ragin Cagin, and putting in solid state rectifier...The SS rec. tightend up the low end big time, but the amp still had soul....[a great amp BTW]

JimmyR
09-05-2010, 08:24 PM
My home-brew 5E3 is one of my favourite amps. I love the PaulC mod - really helped reduce the fizz. I have a Celestion Gold in mine, but a blue sounds almost as good. The Gold has a bit more low-end and low-end tightness.

I also replaced the 5K resistor between the first two filters with a choke. Love it! Still sounds like a Deluxe but MUCH less mushy, fizzy bass. Sounds amazing with my Les Paul.

koen
09-07-2010, 08:25 AM
I tried the 100K grid stopper on the PI, and it was OK, but when I changed it to a 330K, it really made a difference!

How does it sound different?

TweeDLX
09-07-2010, 09:11 AM
How does it sound different?
No more fizz on top of the notes. I have a G12H30 in it, and the fizz was accentuated by the speaker. Now, just chimey cleans and sweet overdrive. Suits my style of playing to a T. I'm still tweaking the sound, and may up the coupling cap values a tad before I'm done. Of course, you have to realize that in a few months, a year maybe, I'll tear into it again and try something new. I jes' cain't hep myseff! :)

Mike

guiltless
12-01-2010, 10:54 PM
The easist thing to try first is putting a 100K resistor/grid stopper on the cathodyne PI grid. i.e. V2A plate > .022uF cap > 100K resistor > V2B grid (pin 7). You can go as high as 1m, I've read.. but a little (100K-220K) goes a long way. I'd try this before doing the Paul C mod.


Reopening an oldie again. Why do you need the .022uF bypass cap on the Grid Stopper? Wouldn't that just serve to make the PI ultra-linear? Is that necessary for a guitar amps? Or just Hi-Fi's?

And before anyone thinks I know what I am talking about... What I just said is a question based off of statements from other conversations, very little of which I fully comprehend :D

guitarcapo
12-02-2010, 09:49 AM
Nobody mentioned the Mission Amps Volume/Tone mod so I will.
I love what it did for my 5E3 head. Mine has really nice Mojo foil oil caps and a choke also.

That vol/tone mod tamed and smoothed out the overdrive in a really nice way. Still more of a mid hump than a Deluxe Reverb because there's no blackface tone stack...but more refined usable cleans than a tweed deluxe. Basically it sounds like a really nice brownface Deluxe is the closest amp I can compare it to.

Prairie Dawg
12-02-2010, 10:14 AM
Nobody mentioned the Mission Amps Volume/Tone mod so I will.
I love what it did for my 5E3 head. Mine has really nice Mojo foil oil caps and a choke also.

That vol/tone mod tamed and smoothed out the overdrive in a really nice way. Still more of a mid hump than a Deluxe Reverb because there's no blackface tone stack...but more refined usable cleans than a tweed deluxe. Basically it sounds like a really nice brownface Deluxe is the closest amp I can compare it to.

They don't own any more than a diagram and a parts kit.

Anyone can figure this out and git r done with five bucks worth of parts.

guitarcapo
12-02-2010, 10:42 AM
Well it's $28. I really have to question the $5 figure when you consider that there's a dual pot involved. That's $10-$12 right there. I'm willing to toss the guy $10 for the convenience of having all the caps and instructions right in front of me instead of having to track down the exact cap values and instruction with no customer support.
It's not exactly a rip-off. Either way it's a great mod. If you want to save a few bucks feel free to do it the harder way.

phsyconoodler
12-02-2010, 11:01 AM
Hey prairie dog,
What is the mission tone mod about?Never heard of that one.

hasserl
12-02-2010, 11:11 AM
Nobody mentioned the Mission Amps Volume/Tone mod so I will.
I love what it did for my 5E3 head. Mine has really nice Mojo foil oil caps and a choke also.

That vol/tone mod tamed and smoothed out the overdrive in a really nice way. Still more of a mid hump than a Deluxe Reverb because there's no blackface tone stack...but more refined usable cleans than a tweed deluxe. Basically it sounds like a really nice brownface Deluxe is the closest amp I can compare it to.

I did mention it in my post at the top of this page:

"V1 cathode bypass cap changed to 4.7uf, coupling caps changed to .022uf. PaulC mod if you want to smooth out the distortion from the PI. If you want to broaden the response curve from the volume controls change the Vol control circuit to the 6G3 brown Deluxe style. Since there is only one Tone control, you can either use a dual pot and add tone control for both channels, but my preference is to leave off the tone controls from the pre amp, add a bright cap for the bright channel (500pf) and add a post PI "cut" control for a tone control."


Hey prairie dog,
What is the mission tone mod about?Never heard of that one.

6G3 style Vol / Tone arrangement, using a dual pot for the tone control.

Trout
12-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Well it's $28. I really have to question the $5 figure when you consider that there's a dual pot involved. That's $10-$12 right there. I'm willing to toss the guy $10 for the convenience of having all the caps and instructions right in front of me instead of having to track down the exact cap values and instruction with no customer support.
It's not exactly a rip-off. Either way it's a great mod. If you want to save a few bucks feel free to do it the harder way.

On average, parts to convert the input stage to the 6G3 setup complete with dual pot is $13.85 and that is assuming you did not reuse any of the old tone caps.
Based on AES prices which are not the best.
I just used the Brown Deluxe layout as reference when I did it.

Dual 1 meg pot $2.50
Mica cap $0.50
Mica cap $0.50
Mica cap $0.50 (optional)
(2)220K resistors $0.60
Film Cap $0.95
Film cap $0.95
C-H Knob $1.35

$7.85 parts

Its a good mod,
Upside,
You can set the Bright vs Normal tonal differences with just a couple value changes
Downside,
You give up the huge control interaction on the stock 5E3 volume controls.


Edit
$7.85 parts + $6.00 shipping

Prairie Dawg
12-02-2010, 11:37 AM
Well it's $28. I really have to question the $5 figure when you consider that there's a dual pot involved. That's $10-$12 right there. I'm willing to toss the guy $10 for the convenience of having all the caps and instructions right in front of me instead of having to track down the exact cap values and instruction with no customer support.
It's not exactly a rip-off. Either way it's a great mod. If you want to save a few bucks feel free to do it the harder way.

There's nothing hard about it.

It took me about an hour's worth of work to track it down, including diagrams and pictures. In fact, the two inputs get voiced a little differently as well in the method I used on my Weber Proluxe.

I never said it was a rip off either-just a repackaging job that yields the packager a substantial bonus-that and his willingness to come down on people who try and publish his copyrighted diagram.

That's fine by me too-you gotta make your money where you can.

Trout is right about the nature and quality of the mod. It makes the amp more controllable but takes something away from the magic of the original configuration.

;)

guitarcapo
12-02-2010, 02:05 PM
On average, parts to convert the input stage to the 6G3 setup complete with dual pot is $13.85 and that is assuming you did not reuse any of the old tone caps.
Based on AES prices which are not the best.
I just used the Brown Deluxe layout as reference when I did it.

Dual 1 meg pot $2.50
Mica cap $0.50
Mica cap $0.50
Mica cap $0.50 (optional)
(2)220K resistors $0.60
Film Cap $0.95
Film cap $0.95
C-H Knob $1.35

$7.85 parts

Its a good mod,
Upside,
You can set the Bright vs Normal tonal differences with just a couple value changes
Downside,
You give up the huge control interaction on the stock 5E3 volume controls.


Edit
$7.85 parts + $6.00 shipping

Whatever. I get paid $60 and hour as an optometrist so I might live in a different world than people worrying about saving $15 tracking down individual parts and accurate instructions with that time. I'm happy to toss the guy a few bucks and reward him for his idea. I wish there were more guys like him doing that but maybe they have trouble for that same reason. I wouldn't have heard about the mod if it wasn't for him. As for the "huge control interaction" I wasn't a fan. Good riddance. Leo saw it for the accidental design flaw that it was and rightfully addressed it.

BTW I read somewhere that it's cheaper to buy groceries than to go to a restaurant. Who would have guessed?

Prairie Dawg
12-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Whatever. I get paid $60 and hour as an optometrist so I might live in a different world than people worrying about saving $15 tracking down individual parts and accurate instructions with that time. I'm happy to toss the guy a few bucks instead of stealing his idea. I wouldn't have heard about the mod if it wasn't for him. As for the "huge control interaction" I wasn't a fan. Good riddance. Leo saw it for the accidental design flaw that it was and rightfully addressed it.

BTW I read somewhere that it's cheaper to buy groceries than to go to a restaurant. Who would have guessed?

Nobody stole the guy's idea, because he didn't have one in the first place, unless you think he's the first person that ever thought of this since the first guy lugged his TV front Deluxe to a radio repair shop in 1950 and asked the guy behind the counter to do something about the volume and tone.






:facepalm

Trout
12-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Whatever. I get paid $60 and hour as an optometrist so I might live in a different world than people worrying about saving $15 tracking down individual parts and accurate instructions with that time.
It is not about the money, though you could always pick a lucky customer and offer him/her the savings as an exam discount.

I'm happy to toss the guy a few bucks and reward him for his idea.Shouldn't that say reward the guy for his kit/parts service? It had been done long before someone decided to put it in a kit.


BTW I read somewhere that it's cheaper to buy groceries than to go to a restaurant. Who would have guessed?BTW, a buying a condom is cheaper than paying for a college fund as well.

We offer this info " freely" to guys who do care about saving a few bucks and EXPANDING their own knowledge base. If people learn more about how to address simple mods, more often than not the pride/satisfaction factor is worth more than the coin involved.
28.00 kit + 65.00 tech bill to install it, or 15.00 DIY'er that is proud of what he/she learned.

phsyconoodler
12-02-2010, 04:26 PM
Quote:"BTW, a buying a condom is cheaper than paying for a college fund as well."

But seeing a child grow up to be a good person and pursue an education in college is priceless.
What you gonna do with all that extra money anyway?Languish away in the sun with a drink with an umbrella in it?

guiltless
12-02-2010, 04:39 PM
Reopening an oldie again. Why do you need the .022uF bypass cap on the Grid Stopper? Wouldn't that just serve to make the PI ultra-linear? Is that necessary for a guitar amps? Or just Hi-Fi's?

And before anyone thinks I know what I am talking about... What I just said is a question based off of statements from other conversations, very little of which I fully comprehend :D

Aaaaaaaaand back to the question I reopened this with... :D

I have been doing some research and some are saying the grid stopper should go in line with pin 7 and the wire attaching to pin 7 rather than pin 7 and the grid on the other side.

Any help?

Trout
12-02-2010, 05:08 PM
Aaaaaaaaand back to the question I reopened this with... :D

I have been doing some research and some are saying the grid stopper should go in line with pin 7 and the wire attaching to pin 7 rather than pin 7 and the grid on the other side.

Any help?

I have installed that resistor , several values up to 470K and honestly? I really did not feel it was worth the effort. More can be gained elsewhere in the circuit and through speaker & tube choices.

But seeing a child grow up to be a good person and pursue an education in college is priceless.
What you gonna do with all that extra money anyway?Languish away in the sun with a drink with an umbrella in it?
Well seeing as I do not drink, more than likely I would just buy a bimmer & will the rest to the girls :D
BTW, all three of our girls have Masters, so I know the costs LOL

Prairie Dawg
12-02-2010, 05:23 PM
The tone-volume mod has met with mixed reviews. I sold my first Weber Proluxe to a friend who, having worked his way through a lot of high end gear, became entranced with it. When I got the second one and did the mod I asked him to road test it. He did and said "The magic's gone. Not my cup of tea."

By the way, we are practically neighbors, O Fishy One. I am in central Ioway.

Trout
12-02-2010, 06:56 PM
The tone-volume mod has met with mixed reviews. I sold my first Weber Proluxe to a friend who, having worked his way through a lot of high end gear, became entranced with it. When I got the second one and did the mod I asked him to road test it. He did and said "The magic's gone. Not my cup of tea."

By the way, we are practically neighbors, O Fishy One. I am in central Ioway.

I agree, that mod is a mixed bag, I think the guys that dislike or never learned the full potential of the interacting controls will love it. Others, like you say, The Magics gone.

Based on the popularity of the Creme of Wheat, I suspect guys tend to like it overall, and based on photo's, it looks to be the same basic topology.

I'm far west near Dekalb, maybe 30 minutes from the border as the ole crow flies. I get out that way several times a year though, we do a couple weekends every summer hitting auctions treasure hunting near and around Dubuque sometimes out as far as Waterloo & Cedar Falls.
Were not to far from Rte 20 so its a nice scenic drive.

TweeDLX
12-02-2010, 09:52 PM
When I got the second one and did the mod I asked him to road test it. He did and said "The magic's gone. Not my cup of tea."

I purchased and installed the Vol/tone mod from Bruce for my Mission 5E3 (he didn't invent that either, by the way, but does provide remarkable support for the kits he sells) long before I ever discovered the Gear Page. I was hoping for more headroom (got it) but wound up missing my 5E3. I really liked that interaction between the volume knobs.

hasserl
12-02-2010, 10:15 PM
One of the benefits of the mod, as I posted earlier, is the enhanced sweep of the volume control. With the stock arrangement, with the wiper of the pot serving as the input, the action or sweep of the control is very abrupt, it's more like an On/Off switch. By 3 the amp is already into breakup mode. The mod allows you to get a little more control over the start of breakup characteristics of the amp. I like it, though I also like the stock arrangement too, they both have value to them and it just depends on the user and what he prefers. It can be a useful mod.

It's the same thing with the phase inverter fixed bias mod; it does smooth out the distortion of the PI, but some guys like the stock distortion characteristic, and this mod tends to smooth it out too much for them. It's all subjective, some like it, some don't, either way is cool.

rcboals
11-05-2012, 09:09 AM
You can mod the amp and get more clean headroom, volume number control, less mid hump, etc. etc. but, once you muck with it, it ain't gonna be a 5E3. If you want some more "control" over the numbers and more clean headroom and basically some other tone besides a 5E3 you should just get a Brown or Black face. You will not have the awesome distinctive raw 5E3 tone anymore with any volume/tone mods. Luckily they are simple easy mods to reverse if you don't like what it does.

Chas
11-05-2012, 09:20 AM
I like the Fizz the Op speaks of but IMO NOS tubes are what bring out the best of the 5e3. I have a NOS GE in the rectifier. NOS GE's for the 2 6v6's and Ratheon 12ax7, and 12ay7. The 12ay7 in v1 is a must. I have yet to find a tube change that has that much od an effect on the sound.

jcs
11-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Even though 5E3 are cathode bias, there is a tone/response difference between 50% and say 70% total dissipation.

There are 100's of variations of NOS 6V6 tubes built since the 1940's and they don't all sound the same, especially when you consider different bias points.

Some 6V6 are much more soft and compressed while others harder and brighter and then you take into account the way power tubes interact with a speaker in a 5E3, it adds up to distinct differences in tone and response.

I much prefer a single P10R or P10Q style speaker in the 5E3 (as well as my 5A3).

guitarcapo
11-05-2012, 09:01 PM
People keep talking about some sort of "magic" of the 5E3 circuit being lost. I wish they'd be more specific about what that means. What does magic sound like anyway? Personally I like the brownface design better for what I do. Less raw and more headroom. I think it's the perfect mix of blackface and tweed characteristics. But yea...it does change the amp away from the 5E3 sound.