First foray into modeling - Eleven Rack or Axe-FX?

[cplus]

I'm giving a lot of thought to pulling the trigger on a good stand-alone modeler and am hoping for your input.

First off, while I've used some software modeling (Amplitube UNO and GR Combos), this is my first real push into modeling. I've looked at the PODs and some of other modelers in the past and they all left me wanting better tone. More recently, I had a chance to spend time with an 11R at GC; I didn't care for all of the presets, but I liked the core sounds enough that with some tweaking, I could easily derive satisfying clean, edge-of-breakup and crunch tones. I tried some heavier tones, they sounded good but it's not the kind of music I play. Some of the more effects-heavy sounds were cool, too. And, to be honest, it didn't feel bad playing through the 11R and studio monitors. I've never seen an Axe-FX in person, much less played one.

I play at home -- no live gigs, no studio work -- and am looking for a good modeler that I can play through monitors. You know the story - good sounds at sane volume without a dozen amps and pedals cluttering my living room. I don't need 384 amp/cab/pedal models - quality is more important than quantity. The UI and learning curve is also important since time I spend twiddling with the box could be spent actually playing. I've read through many of the posts about the 11R and Axe-FX and the general consensus is the Axe-FX edges out the 11R for both features and sound quality. Fractal also supports its products better (frequent updates, etc) and has a thriving user community, so an Axe-FX could be a better long-term option. Price, sadly, is a consideration.

So, here's my question: Will I outgrow the 11R, or will the Axe-FX be too deep for a modeling novice? Should I get an 11R the next time they're on sale, or spend the extra $600 for an Axe-FX or look for a used one?

[epluribus]

All I can say is Wow! Them's summmm starters Verne.

My first experience with modeling was after a twenty-year hiatus, when I picked up an RP300 for my kid. Couldn't quite believe what the digital revolution had done to guitar gear.

:beer

[02Singlecut]

I have played both......I won't say a bad word one about the AxeFx as it's a really cool piece of equiptment. It acts like a tube amp and as you said is supported very well, here and on the Fractial Forum.

My decision came down to price and ease of use. The Eleven Rack IMHO sounds just as good as the AxeFx for what I want to do. The front panel knobs and edit features are easy to use and I've had mine 3 weeks or so now and have got 4 patches completed for live use. The bonus is that I have been spending a ton more time playing/practicing since I got it than I was before. I'm a very HAPPY camper. OBTW there's an Eleven Rack for sale in the Pro-Audio section that's a pretty good deal!!:munch

[BSHARP]

If you are going for an all in one package with front panel knobs that control drive, tone and volume and has excellent sound and for less than $800 with a foot controller, you might consider a 1101. Of course, if you are looking for the state of the art in modeling and don't want to be haunted by what it would be like to have the best - buy the Axe.

[Scott Peterson]

I have not tried the Eleven Rack so cannot comment on how it sounds.

The Axe-FX is on firmware 9.02 now; it's a mature product and has reached a point where the learning curve is leveling out in a major way. With the editor in mature beta and firmware that now allows you to quickly dial in very accurate amps it is as deep as you want it to be or as simple as you like; really just a preference now.

Compared to the Eleven Rack you will need an audio interface and midi interface with the Axe-FX; the Eleven Rack is an audio interface and doesn't require a midi interface to 'talk' to your computer.

There is a difference in price point, and it's not a minor choice. I've not heard the Eleven Rack, but I can say that I've never been happier in my life with my tone than I have been for some time (since summer 2007) with my Axe-FX.

Honestly, I don't think you can lose either way.

[djd100]

I've got both at the studio and can sum it up like this:

Axe: Sounds better amp model and speaker sim wise (you can roll your own speaker IR's etc), is much more editable, has way more better sounding FX, and it's wide open in terms of routing (series and parallel, 48 point matrix etc). The Axe's editor is buggy and lags behind the firmware, but it works. The Axe's front panel UI is excellent but only uses a single rotary encoder, plus the box is incredibly deep so there is a learning curve if you want to get the most out of it, though of course you can just play the presets and tweak the basic amp controls quite easily.

11R: Has a much easier UI with multiple front panel rotary encoders, and it has way less FX and routing options so it's no where near as deep (which translates to ease of use etc). Yes, the presets are horrible, but there are workable tones in there if you build your own. In addition the 11R functions as a Pro Tools dongle/interface so if you need a DAW that's a plus.

So, if you're only interested in home playing and you have no need of the Axe's outstanding FX and routing flexibility then the 11R could work for you IMO, though if you want the best it's the Axe.

I have not tried the Eleven Rack so cannot comment on how it sounds.

Honestly, I don't think you can lose either way.

[germs]

for the novice, i'd suggest something like the POD X3 Pro, or Boss GT Pro, or some such rack-based unit. and that's IF you're bound and determined to venture into a rack-based setup. there are of course other options if you want a simpler floor-based quality machine.

don't know your skill level, but if you aren't already familiar with MIDI switching, power amps, and rack setups in general, well...let's just say it's a whole other ball game. not even the same sport really...

Axe-FX is THE best, there's no doubt - BUT the learning curve is steep (as with any modeler). i'd just generally advise the beginning modeler to shy away until they're sure they want to commit to something like that.

i can't count the threads i've seen from people who purchased one, only to return or sell it (multiple times, even!) because they couldn't get the hang of the dang thing.

i also can't imagine the 11 Rack being much easier.

both of these products are for people at the top of the modelling game who KNOW how to use them. it's almost like placing someone who just got their driver's liscense behind the wheel of a Ferrari. sure, they can keep it on the road, but they're just not driving it like it's supposed to be driven.

again, your budget is your business - not getting into the whole, "you don't deserve this thing!" arguement - but in sheer terms of not-pulling-your-hair-out-to-use-the-damn-thing, i'd look elsewhere.

YMMV, but that's how i see it.

[cplus]

Thanks for all the detailed replies, you've given me much to think about. On the bright side, the resale value for an AFX seems to be *very* high, so I'd only loose a couple hundred $ if I went that route.

Compared to the Eleven Rack you will need an audio interface and midi interface with the Axe-FX; the Eleven Rack is an audio interface and doesn't require a midi interface to 'talk' to your computer.

Scott - I can go from the AFX direct out to powered studio monitors, right? I would only need the midi interface for a computer connection and to record?

for the novice, i'd suggest something like the POD X3 Pro, or Boss GT Pro, or some such rack-based unit. and that's IF you're bound and determined to venture into a rack-based setup. there are of course other options if you want a simpler floor-based quality machine.

don't know your skill level, but if you aren't already familiar with MIDI switching, power amps, and rack setups in general, well...let's just say it's a whole other ball game. not even the same sport really...

Axe-FX is THE best, there's no doubt - BUT the learning curve is steep (as with any modeler). i'd just generally advise the beginning modeler to shy away until they're sure they want to commit to something like that.

i can't count the threads i've seen from people who purchased one, only to return or sell it (multiple times, even!) because they couldn't get the hang of the dang thing.

i also can't imagine the 11 Rack being much easier.

both of these products are for people at the top of the modelling game who KNOW how to use them. it's almost like placing someone who just got their driver's liscense behind the wheel of a Ferrari. sure, they can keep it on the road, but they're just not driving it like it's supposed to be driven.

again, your budget is your business - not getting into the whole, "you don't deserve this thing!" arguement - but in sheer terms of not-pulling-your-hair-out-to-use-the-damn-thing, i'd look elsewhere.

YMMV, but that's how i see it.

Hmmm... based on my current abilities, I'd be better off with a Blues Jr.. That doesn't stop me from wanting to learn, grow, be a better guitar player and explore new sonic territory. I was pretty comfortable with the 11R after about an hour of twiddling, so having some learning curve wasn't my concern. I wanted to determine if the AFX was so deep that I wouldn't be able to get usable sounds out of it without spending days pouring over the manual. It seems there's enough just below the surface to get me started, but the depth would better keep me satisfied over the long haul.

Interesting analogy about the Ferrari... I bought a 750cc sportbike over 20 years ago with exactly ZERO experience riding on the street. I didn't kill myself (luckly!) and went on to enjoy riding for over two decades. Now I'm spending more time on improving my playing and gear, including starting building an LP-style guitar from scratch. I guess that's just my personality -- I delight in the challenge of learning and doing something new rather than saying I can't... :)

[Shiny McShine]

Axe-Fx. Reasons: the top of line for modelers, constant updates, huge community of users including forum, US business.

[Scott Peterson]

Scott - I can go from the AFX direct out to powered studio monitors, right? I would only need the midi interface for a computer connection and to record?

Yes.

[rmpacheco]

I would have gone with the Axe FX myself except I was on a tight budget. I wanted something that would be good for recording and live use, so I chose the 11R, which I got at a slight discount for around $750, half the price of an Axe FX standard. I am pretty pleased with the basic amp tones I can get with it. I'd like to see more effects and amp/cab models, and I am still GASing for an Axe FX just because I want the depth of options it provides, but I just cannot justify its cost at the moment, so for the time being, the 11R will do just fine! :)

[soundbee]

Scott - I can go from the AFX direct out to powered studio monitors, right? I would only need the midi interface for a computer connection and to record?


Some clarification on this: the midi interface for an Axe will only allow you to send patch info (like with the editor) and/or program changes. It is not used for recording. The 11R can be used as an audio interface as well.

I tried both and - sound wise felt the 11R was equally as good as the Axe when comparing similar sounds. As far as tweak-ability and number of available fx the Axe is the clear winner. However, in actual usage in a studio and live situation, I found the 11R to come out firmly on top. It has exactly what I need and live tweaking of sounds is much more intuitive with the knobs on the front panel.

Also for me, being able to run a laptop out of the unit playing samples and backing tracks in a live situation is awesome.

[cplus]

...Also for me, being able to run a laptop out of the unit playing samples and backing tracks in a live situation is awesome.

Good point, I was thinking about that too but will probably use my trusty looper in the FX loop to play backing tracks; I think both the 11R and AFX can handle that.

[rmpacheco]

The 11R also has headphone out, which the AxeFX doesn't (to my knowledge...please correct me if I'm wrong). To be honest, I think it sounds a lot better through my powered monitor than it does via headphones (LOTS better), but for times when the kiddos are asleep and I can't rock out as loud as I'd like, the headphone out comes in handy.

[streuth]

I just got the 11R and really like it. It responds to touch and the amp/speaker sims (so far) see really top notch to me. I've played through tube amps for a long time and this is the first modeling I've tried that sounds and reacts like an amp. It's just fun to play. I also play mostly blues/rock so I'm looking for clean/overdriven but not super high gain. The high gain sounds kind of buzzy to me but then I haven't really played with them much either.

Haven't tried the Axe-Fx although it's obviously a great piece of gear and way more effects/amps etc. I'd love to try one, anyone in Santa Cruz have one :) we could compare them.

I don't like many of presets on the 11R either but it's pretty easy to dial in stuff I like (it's probably partly because I play a tele which is pretty bright and I doubt many of the presets were done with a tele in mind). Sounds great through a PA too. It easy to use the unit stand alone, the front panel controls/screen are pretty well thought out for a hardware box. The editor is ok but you have to fire up protools to use it, hopefully they will have a stand alone one in the future.

The effects on the 11R are a very basic set, which doesn't matter too much for me but even so hopefully they will add more over time.

[Matt Jones]

It's also worth mentioning that at least in my experience there's very little tweaking required anymore to get a really good basic sound out of the Axe.

The Axe-fx wiki has some great tips and guides to get some really good sounds dialed in quickly.

[AndrewSimon]

AXE-FX!
The frequent updates are priceless.
I own it for almost 3 years and it's like Christmas every month.

:agree

[Gasp100]

I'm going to the Eleven Rack from the AxeFX (for the second time). For me, it's all about budget, ease of use, time management and "compromise". Any time I want to get new gear in the house (the Yin-Yang between very expensive guitar/mid priced modeler or the opposite, very expensive modeler/mid priced guitar) I have to move something out to finance the new gear.
The Eleven Rack is a very, very cool unit and with some work you can get some very nice tones out of it. I use FX very sparingly (even on recordings) so the few that they have in the box are ok (just ok.... I definitely believe they will be providing more in the future). I also track dry a lot and use plugins for verb/delay/chorus after the fact. The thing that I really dig about Eleven Rack is that it is a USB audio/midi interface as well. The pre is decent quality, it has line in's, spdif, etc... so you can grow as you add on more recording gear (if need be). Technically it removes the need to pay for any type of recording software (if you are cool using Pro Tools LE as your recording software) and it has a ton of useful plugin's within the bundle of software as well. I really dig the all-in-one solution for home recording / home playing guitarists. It's clean and tidy, 2 rack spaces with a lot of potential, looks awesome and sounds really good. I also believe they will provide updates in the future (don't know the quality or cost...) I think with some outside help (possibly an outboard paraEQ, maybe a high quality pedal or two, etc...) virtually anything is possible with the Eleven Rack, clearly more than enough for my purposes.

The AxeFX to me is a serious commitment to modeling -- mainly from a budgetary, gear acquisition and tweak time standpoint. I personally think you can get it sounding great quickly - it doesn't have to be a time suck to get great tones. There is a TON of features in the box, constantly being updated, etc... and the quality is second to none. I have not owned the two units side by side, but I have owned them one right after the other and I'm confident in saying the AxeFX is the clear winner for amp sims, cab sims (including 3rd party), FX, routing, etc... no question in my mind.
BUT - I realized all I need (or want) is guitar -> amp -> some delay or verb in 99% of my patches. I'm confident I can get that with the Eleven Rack. I was able to recoup my AxeFX costs VERY quickly (my AxeFX sold in less than 2 hours on ebay and I actually net'd about $25 after all fees and such). I was also able to sell my audio / midi interface (lost that $25 lol!) and I was able to buy a mint condition Eleven Rack all within about 24 hours of making the decision. I also was able to finish financing final payment for my Rocketfire Strat and I have a few hundred left over for something... maybe a real amp? Who knows ;)
Right now, the used market for both the AxeFX AND the Eleven Rack is very good. I think if you get a new one on a Musicians Friend sale ~$750 or a used one around the same price you are going to be fine if you decide to flip it. Selling the AxeFX is easy as pie... trust me, I've done it too many times ;)
I'm committed to using the Eleven Rack as my audio / midi interface and that's the real selling point for me; I can even sell my firewire PCI card to drum up a couple more bucks as my Music PC has several USB 2.0 connections built in. If Digidesign commits to releasing updates to the Eleven Rack it's a win-win-win for most users. Another thing to consider is that if you want to get into FRFR monitoring for modelers (imho this is the best way to have a full rig vs. power amp -> guitar cab) the price tag can be steep (The QSC, FBT and Atomic FR all hover around $650-850). I'm considering grabbing a QSC powered monitor and using it with the Eleven Rack. Even if I eventually go back to (or more than likely ADD) the AxeFX again down the line the FRFR is a great solution for either/any modeler.
Finally, don't discount some of the other options like the Digitech RP1000 (very cool form factor, some nice amp sims, cab sims are a little blah, very good "pedal FX") or the GSP1101 and a few other things out there as well.
Have fun!