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Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 01:16 PM
After being on this board for over a year, I see there's still alot of confusion about what a Celestion "Greenback" is. I'll try to describe all the ones I have myself with pictures, cone #'s, labels, etc. The difference between Pre Rola's, and current "Reissues" from the 80's on forward.

Hopefully, those of you who wish to purchase "Greenbacks" from the old days can use this thread to ID any "Greenbacks" you're thinking of getting, and keep your sellers honest, and you from being taken to the cleaners. I will refer to Michael Doyle's "The History of Marshall" for some reference points, my own experience in buying over 400 of these in the last 5 years, and pictures, OK?

EDIT 9/1/10: Date code charts for pre rola era Greenbacks (both G12M 20, 25w, and G12H 25 & 30w) are below.

1963 - 1967
YEAR CODE MONTH CODE
1963 H January A
1964 J February B
1965 K March C
1966 L April D
1967 M May E
June F
July G
August H
September J
October K
November L
December M
Note the loss of the 'I' from the month codes. The date codes from 1963 to 1967 are written in the form: Day, Month, Year. For example: 19MK = 19th December 1965


Be advised that very few of you will find these early pre rolas. But if you do, the date code and Txxxx code will be on the front of the cork gasket of the speaker. This means you won't see it until you remove the speaker from the cab to look.



--------------------------------


This is the date code chart most pre rola speakers fall into. The Pulsonic cones (75hz 102 003, 102/3, 102 3 and "3" lead cones, 55hz 102 014, 102/14, 102 14 and "4" cones)were discontinued in late 73, early 74. RIC xxx cones (Rola Celestion made, not Pulsonic or Kurt Mueller) from late 73-early 75, Kurt Mueller 1777 (75hz) and 444 (55hz) cones from early 75 to present.

1968 - 1991
YEAR CODE MONTH CODE
1968 A January A
1969 B February B
1970 C March C
1971 D April D
1972 E May E
1973 F June F
1974 G July G
1975 H August H
1976 J September J
1977 K October K
1978 L November L
1979 M December M
1980 N
1981 P
1982 Q
1983 R
1984 S
1985 T
1986 U
1987 V
1988 W
1989 X
1990 Y
1991 Z/A
The date codes from 1968 to 1991 are written in the form: Month, Year, Day.
For example: KH7 = 7th October 1975





Let's discuss G12M "Greenbacks" first.

These originally came out in the mid 60's. Ceramic magnet, 35 oz. magnet weight (referred to as a "M" or medium weight magnet).

T1134 G12M, introduced in November, 1964 with an 1777 lead cone, 75hz bass response, 10-12 ohm rating. This is the forerunner to the T1221 G12M Greenback most of us are familar with (T1221 is a 15 ohm model, 102 003 Pulsonic cone, 35 oz magnet). The T1161 is the same as the T1134 but is a 15 ohm rating. Has no back cover magnet, but a very small Celestion label that's oval, red background with "Celestion" in the middle of the label. This is from a T1417 G12S speaker from 1971.
http://scumbackspeakerss.com/greenbacks/redcelestionmaglabel.jpg


T1221 G12M, May 1966 intro date. These came with "Pre Rola" Celestion labels like this one:
This is a T1511 model (16 ohm bass cone 55hz 014 cone, pretty rare these days)
http://scumbackspeakerss.com/greenbacks/t1511.jpg
This is the T1239 model, which has a 30 watt rating on it's fake/repro label (15 ohm bass cone 55hz 444 cone, even more rare these days than the T1511)
http://scumbackspeakerss.com/greenbacks/t1239.jpg
This is a T1221 (AM17 date code, January 17, 1967) with the "Marshall" script logo, Pulsonic 102 003 lead 75hz cone (this one pictured is a 53-H1777 Celestion reconed model)
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1221m.jpg

This is the G12M Reissue (Vox Label). 6402 cone code, 75hz, bass response, green magnet cover, and a statement on the label that usually says something like the following:
"This speaker is built to the original G12M specifications. Be careful not to exceed the speaker wattage ratings... blah, blah, blah". When you see that, you know it's a newer one. If it has a big long code on the frame, 12 digits in a row, you know it's a reissue, not an old one. The gray speaker tabs, the long code # (not just a Txxxx code) and the "Celestion, Ipswich, England" address are dead giveaways to it's recent production.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/g12mreissue.jpg
Now on to the other Greenbacks, the Celestion G12H30 Pre Rola's. These heavier magnet, 100db (vs. the G12M 97db) versons came out in October, 1966.

T1862 & T1234 G12H30 heavy magnet (50 oz. ceramic magnet), Pulsonic 102 003 75hz lead cone model, 8 ohms (pretty rare in 8 ohms). I've seen a total of 7 of these in 200 plus Pre Rola purchases. As rare as Pre Rola's are, these are amongst the rarest.
The T1862 came out of an open back combo I was told, so I'd have to guess the T1234 did, too. This info can't be confirmed, however.
T1862 G12H30 8 ohm pic:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1862.jpg
T1234 G12H30 8 ohm pic:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1234.jpg

T1534 & T1281 G12H30 (50 oz. heavy ceramic magnet) Pulsonic 102 014 55hz bass cone. The T1534's have a label, usually they're marked as 75hz bass response (lead cone type) but they should have the 55 hz on them if Celestion ever printed enough labels, but they didn't... The T1281's were put into 4x12 BASS and 100 logo'd cabs. I got three of these in a 69 Marshall Basketweave cab I bought last year with original wiring and unbroken solder. Of the four I own, none has a label. Makes me wonder why the T1534 has one, unless it was in a 2x12 combo, or 2x12 cab perhaps? Same basic speaker, though.
T1534 pic:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1534.jpg
T1281 pic:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1281.jpg

The deepest sounding models have the 55 hz bass cones, the brighter sounding models have the 75 hz cones. The "100" logo cabs and the "Bass" logo cabs used the heavy duty G12H30 55hz speakers (for the most part). Here's a pic of my 69 Marshall straight cab (1982 model) with the gold 6" Marshall and 100 logos.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/DSCN4093.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/DSCN4087.jpg

Hopefully this clears up some of the "Pre Rola" vs Rola vs. Reissue issues in a visually descriptive, informative way. Let me know if there's any questions or if you have an update for me. I suspect that one or two labels could have been lost, changed, or just outright forgeries, but at least the Txxxx codes, the date codes, and the cone #'s will authenticate the construction of these old "Greenbacks" when the labels are gone, swapped or false.

Keep in mind, these old speakers go for big bucks. I have paid up to $350 each for some of mine (acually six of them). The lowest price I paid was $100, and it was a mistake, too, because the seller thought it was dead (turned out to be a loose lead wire from speaker tab to cone). If you find a quad of these with matching date codes, be prepared to spend $400 or more each (assuming a tested, no issues original Pulsonic cone). Loose singles go for up to $350, matched date code pairs are usually $800, and I've heard of quads with matching date codes going for $1800-2000.

Good luck in your searches for the old tone! :D

Hipster Dofus
02-04-2005, 03:54 PM
VERY COOL!

Thanks

Hipster Dofus
02-04-2005, 03:59 PM
Can you show the spiders and are the coils all the same size? Can you elaborate on the coils more?

I have seen speakers with all diff size and height of spiders. Are the GB's the same over time?

Laroosco!
02-04-2005, 04:13 PM
I'm beside myself waiting for your G12M clones tto be ready!!

The wait is gonna kill me!!

pluto
02-04-2005, 04:24 PM
Thanks Scumbag. This thread is very informative for me.

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Luke Landis
Can you show the spiders and are the coils all the same size? Can you elaborate on the coils more?

I have seen speakers with all diff size and height of spiders. Are the GB's the same over time? They changed the suspensions all the time at Celestion. That's why you'll see different spiders, and all that good stuff. I can't really elaborate on the coils much. They're a 1.75 inch voice coil. From what I understand, the longer the voice coil, the more power it handles. If you use different voice coil materials (nomex, fiberglass, paper, etc.) the tone changes slightly and the power handling is altered.
The Greenbacks changed over time, both on coils, suspension/spider, and cones. That's why I bought over 400 of these things, had them tested, and when my local authorized Celestion warranty station dubbed a speaker as "perfect" I marked it as that.

What I sent Weber VST to make for me were all dubbed as "perfect" speakers, so that's one reason why the speakers sound as good as they do.

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Shovelhead
I have a question for you: What do you call the 25 watters that came stock in '74 4x12 cabs, with the cream colored (snot green!) backs? Are they greenbacks? Or creambacks? And, are they the same speaker as a greenback?

Thanks!

They're "creambacks" and the magnet cover is insignificant of the tone. They could probably have been "Greenbacks" if the cone had been used a year earlier and they had green magnet covers.

The tone is in the cone.

I have a creamback pair in my personal 2x12 Scumbag combo. It's got the "3" cone, the very last version of the 102 003 cone, from what I understand. I bought two from a guy here in So Cal who charged me $250 for the pair. Then he knocked off $50 because it was missing one magnet cover when I got there. These speakers are very solid, and kick serious booty.. so that was a steal, to say the least.

So, in essence, I've got Pre Rola tone for a very reasonable price. But I have only seen four of those speakers total, as well in all of my travels/purchases. They were available from late 72 to early 74 (based on my personal purchases) and the 444 55hz cone, and the 1777 75hz cone were used almost exclusively after 75.

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Laroosco!
I'm beside myself waiting for your G12M clones tto be ready!!

The wait is gonna kill me!! Patience.

pluto
02-04-2005, 05:46 PM
Scumbag, how much do you think these speakers are worth (They're T1281s, but dated 1976 and 1977 I think):
http://image30.webshots.com/30/7/72/51/230077251yyLHKg_ph.jpg

Thanks (and to the moderators-I'm not selling these speakers, I just want to find out what these things are worth).

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by pluto
Thanks Scumbag. This thread is very informative for me.
Glad I could help. I'm going to sell off all of this stuff you saw in the pics when the next batch of Scumbacks is in. I'm only keeping 12 of the 30 or so I've got here (and that doesn't include all of the speakers, just the oldest ones). That means that ebay and the Gear Emporium will have some classifieds as these are my personal speakers for tone comparisons.

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by pluto
Scumbag, how much do you think these speakers are worth (They're T1281s, but dated 1976 and 1977 I think):
http://image30.webshots.com/30/7/72/51/230077251yyLHKg_ph.jpg

Thanks (and to the moderators-I'm not selling these speakers, I just want to find out what these things are worth).

I'd have to see pics of them, date codes, cone codes, etc. Get some good pics, send them to me, and I'll give you a current market price analysis. Keep in mind, I only would comment on "no issues, no voice coil rub, no recones" speakers.

If it's been reconed, it depends on who did it with what cone. There are alot of variables, and that's another whole can of worms. Send me a pic to the email address I have when you click the "email" button, and I'll see what's up.

Lonely Raven
02-04-2005, 05:58 PM
Very cool Jim!

I hope you have all those photos and whatnot backed up on
CD somewhere. If you're hard drive dies, that's a lot of great
photos lost!

pluto
02-04-2005, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Scumbag
I'd have to see pics of them, date codes, cone codes, etc. Get some good pics, send them to me, and I'll give you a current market price analysis. Keep in mind, I only would comment on "no issues, no voice coil rub, no recones" speakers.

If it's been reconed, it depends on who did it with what cone. There are alot of variables, and that's another whole can of worms. Send me a pic to the email address I have when you click the "email" button, and I'll see what's up.

Thanks. When I get the time to open up my cab again and take pics, I'll send them over to you. The cones are apparently original from what the seller told me. I didn't really question their originality because the cab itself just sounded so awesome with my Marshalls. FWIW-The dates on the frames that is apparent on the picture (two right speakers) say JK27 and LK8 or something like that and then it says T1281 next to it. Anyway, thanks again, and I will send a pic when I get the chance. I appreciate it! Mark

Scumback Speakers
02-04-2005, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by pluto
Thanks. When I get the time to open up my cab again and take pics, I'll send them over to you. The cones are apparently original from what the seller told me. I didn't really question their originality because the cab itself just sounded so awesome with my Marshalls. FWIW-The dates on the frames that is apparent on the picture (two right speakers) say JK27 and LK8 or something like that and then it says T1281 next to it. Anyway, thanks again, and I will send a pic when I get the chance. I appreciate it! Mark
Mark, no problema! You probably have 444 55hz Mueller cones (same ones they'll likely use on the Celeston Heritage speakers when they come out in May). The BlackBack T1281 speakers are very nice. They took them and the G12M's out in 79, so your's are later, but those date codes suggest late 77 models.

Those are still good speakers, and they sell for about $175 - $200 each if original cones are in good shape. More if they're pristine. For what it's worth.

pluto
02-04-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Scumbag
Mark, no problema! You probably have 444 55hz Mueller cones (same ones they'll likely use on the Celeston Heritage speakers when they come out in May). The BlackBack T1281 speakers are very nice. They took them and the G12M's out in 79, so your's are later, but those date codes suggest late 77 models.

Those are still good speakers, and they sell for about $175 - $200 each if original cones are in good shape. More if they're pristine. For what it's worth.

Thanks again Scumbag! I appreciate your help greatly.

ButchR
02-04-2005, 07:30 PM
Thanks for the info, Scumbag!:)

Laroosco!
02-04-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Scumbag
Patience. It took Ted four or five months to dial the first one in. The 55 hz took a few more weeks, but the G12M isn't even on the "cloning board" so to speak yet.

All of you guys getting Scumback recones have kept Ted from getting anywhere on that front! He ran out of speakers for a minute since there was so much work to do.

Give the man a break! He's really good at what he does, but there's only so much time in a day, and I'm not his only customer.

In reality, you're probably looking at May, perhaps June. The one thing I don't try and do is email Ted and say "Ted, how's it coming?" I just let the man do his thing, in the timeframe he does it in. I'm sure he'll get to it. But he is kind of a perfectionist, and he's not going to call me and say "Try this out" if it's not real close.

I'll let you all know when that happens, I've tested them against the ones I have here, and when we think they're ready. You'll have to wait, sorry!

NO problem. I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure it will be worth the wait

Axeplyr
02-05-2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Scumbag

T1234 G12H30 heavy magnet (50 oz. ceramic magnet), Pulsonic 102 003 75hz lead cone model, 8 ohms (pretty rare in 8 ohms). I've seen a total of 7 of these in 200 plus Pre Rola purchases. As rare as Pre Rola's are, these are amongst the rarest.
Good luck in your searches for the old tone! :D

Thanks for an excellent, very informative thread!

BTW, I picked up a pair of the T1234 G12H30 8 ohm speakers on Ebay. I got what I considered a pretty good deal on them (about $200 for the pair). They appear to be original cones and are in great condition other than a small cone tear (size of a thumb) that doesn't affect the sound.

Anybody know what these things are really worth?

MickRonson
02-05-2005, 09:52 AM
excellent!! thank you, scum! you answered a lot of my questions. :AOK

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 09:59 AM
I was on eBay this morning, and found a pristine example of an NOS Celestion "transition" labeled G12M T1221 15 ohm speaker with a Pulsonic 102 3 75hz cone. Those of you who are looking for a "time capsule" model to own should check this out. $350 starting bid, no reserve. Told you these cost a bunch of money, didn't I? Wow!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43375&item=3780681224&rd=1 (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5336713463&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5336713463%26toolid%3D10001%26mpr e%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fws%252FeBa yISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526category%253D43375%252 6item%253D3780681224%2526rd%253D1)

I did swipe some pics for this thread, and here they are:
Celestion "transition" label, only made for a few months in 1971 (as far as I know, AFAIK) Notice the large Celestion name in in reverse like a Pre Rola label, but the new "Rola Celestion LTD" name and address are at the bottom. Very rare label, all "Pre Rola" construction. I've got four of these, one is at Weber VST for the Scumback M75 project. Compare this label to the original Pre Rola label, note the differences.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1221trans.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1511.jpg%20
This is a "Pre Rola" black speaker tab. While you can find the black tab in speakers up to 1973, sometimes they came with the later cone codes (102/14, 102/3, 3, 4). Generally though, this is an indicator of an old Celestion, and likely with Pre Rola Pulsonic cones installed (like this one).
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/prspeakertab.jpg
The sometimes hard to find 102/3 or 102 003 cone code on the back of the Pulsonic speaker cone.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/1023conecode.jpg
The "3" cone code pic of a 1971 T1862 Pre Rola G12H30 8 ohm. Seems Celestion used this cone from 71-74 (approximately).
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/3code.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/3code2.jpg
An unplayed, unmolested, and also unbroken in, 102 3 Pulsonic cone's front side. Notice the doping style, placing and technique (exactly what I instructed Weber to do for the Scumback speakers, by the way). The doping on this is very black, normally the doping ages to a light gray color over time. Not this one, it's been "in the box" no dust, no wear, no nothing!
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-3cone.jpg
Four G12H speakers in a row. This is how you'll find Pre Rola G12H labels on speakers you'll buy, they come all ways.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/fourg12hpr.jpg
Four G12M speakers in a row. This is what you can find for labels on old G12M's. Disregard the "Vox" Reissue G12M, that's there for reference to compare.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/fourg12mpr.jpg
"Greenback" magnet covers. The easiest way to tell a G12M from a G12H? The magnet covers on the G12H are much taller to allow for the larger magnet. The G12H magnet covers are straight sides, the G12M covers are shorter, and have a ridge along the bottom about 1/4" tall, the G12H does not. Notice that the G12H cover comes down much farther on the speaker frame, closer to the frame support spokes. In this pic, the G12H is on the left, the G12M is on the right.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/magnetcovers.jpg

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Axeplyr
Thanks for an excellent, very informative thread!

BTW, I picked up a pair of the T1234 G12H30 8 ohm speakers on Ebay. I got what I considered a pretty good deal on them (about $200 for the pair). They appear to be original cones and are in great condition other than a small cone tear (size of a thumb) that doesn't affect the sound.

Anybody know what these things are really worth?
About $400 each. I sold a matching, no issues, tested, original coned pair in December for $700, and afterwards I felt like I left some $$ on the table! Oh well, the new owner (a TGP member) bought them for his rig because this was all he was missing to complete it, the old Marshall head and his Jeff Swanson/BB I extension cab.

Axeplyr
02-05-2005, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Scumbag


About $400 each. I sold a matching, no issues, tested, original coned pair in December for $700, and afterwards I felt like I left some $$ on the table! Oh well, the new owner (a TGP member) bought them for his rig because this was all he was missing to complete it, the old Marshall head and his Jeff Swanson/BB I extension cab.

:dude

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I didn't realize they were worth so much!!! How should I care for them? I'm not using them right now, so they are sitting on a shelf in my studio. Is this ok? Or are they best occasionally seeing some volume?

Maybe I need to have someone build me a 2x12 cab to put them in!

:cool:

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 10:17 AM
I have mine on shelves, cone down to protect the cones, and I've got some hellacious screws/anchors into the studs to support the weight. What you have are the 2nd rarest Celeston Pre Rola speakers. The rarest (and I've never seen them) are the T1341 G12H30 8 ohm 102 014 cone speakers. These are the rarest, and the only place I've seen them is in the HOM book listings, never seen a real one in person.

As for playing them, that's up to you, or you could lend them to me to test for you. ;)

dm4501
02-05-2005, 10:25 AM
This is a very informative thread. Thank you!:AOK

Axeplyr
02-05-2005, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Scumbag
I have mine on shelves, cone down to protect the cones, and I've got some hellacious screws/anchors into the studs to support the weight. What you have are the 2nd rarest Celeston Pre Rola speakers. The rarest (and I've never seen them) are the T1341 G12H30 8 ohm 102 014 cone speakers. These are the rarest, and the only place I've seen them is in the HOM book listings, never seen a real one in person.

As for playing them, that's up to you, or you could lend them to me to test for you. ;)

I you weren't so far away, I'd take you up on that offer. I'm in the UK, unfortunately (displaced American).

Thanks for the advice - I'll treat them like gold!

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 11:26 AM
With shipping costs coming in around $75 USD per speaker, you're right, you test them! LOL Enjoy that tone!

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 06:31 PM
OK, more pics to illustrate cone codes to watch for on old Celestions.

I'm going to show you pics of the cone codes from 1969 to 1973 for G12H30 55 hz speakers, widely known as the "holy grail" of Celestion speakers. These speakers came with a Pulsonic 55hz bass cone.

Earlier today I picked up a quad of Rola Celestion 1973 G12H30 T1281 55hz speakers (EF 8 date code, May 8th, 1973). The seller swore they were all reconed, no numbers, no nothing. Turns out they had the very rarely seen "4" code on the cone. The "4" code cone is the last in the Pulsonic 102 014 speaker cone line. This cone is the one that so many search for for the ultimate tone. (Hogy uses these speakers for his Komet Amp clips on his site. http://www.kometamps.com/sounds.html)

Here's the 102 014 cone code pic. The one I have loose for pics has a significant cone tear repair. Whoever did it (before I got it) did really well, since this speaker passed OCSR's speaker tests (www.speakerrepair.com (http://www.speakerrepair.com)), and they're a Celestion authorized recone/repair station. I've seen others that had no repairs not pass, so this is an anomaly, for sure. This cone code is underneath the black speaker tab, high up by the voice coil (generally were Celestion put the cone codes when installed at the factory, all three of these are in the same proximity).
1969 G12H30 T1281 102 014 cone pics:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-014code.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-014code2.jpg
Then in late 1970 or so, Pulsonic shortened the cone # code to 102/14, here's a pic of what that looks like. The DD23 date code on the speaker this code pic came from dates it to April 23, 1971.
1971 G12H30 T1281 102/14 cone code pic:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-14code.jpg
Finally the 102/14 morphed into a "4" all by itself, with a line on top of it. It almost doesn't look like a complete number 4 printed on the cone at all, have to admit. The ones I picked up today all looked like this (the fourth was a recone, a 1777 75hz lead cone that was an incorrect Celestion recone kit). These pics came from a 1973 G12H30 T1281 Rola Celestion 55 hz speaker with a date code of EF 8, May 8th, 1973.
1973 G12H30 T1281 "4" cone pics:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/4code.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/4code2.jpg
Here's the label on the 73 Rola.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/rola55label2.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/rola55label.jpg
And here's the comparison of the 102 14 cone and the 4 cone. One is a seasoned rock 'n roll warrior that's been in a cabinet for 30 plus years, the other hasn't seem much dust/duty at all considering how shiny the doping is and free of settled dust (like the one on the right). Make a guess, let's see who can figure it out!
http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/014-4cone2.jpg

Reactionjackson
02-05-2005, 08:50 PM
Scumbag,

Even beyond this thread - the continual sharing of your vast knowledge ceases to amaze me. Thanks for all of the time and effort you put into everything. If your ever on the east coast, I owe you a few cold ones.

;)

Scumback Speakers
02-05-2005, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Reactionjackson
Scumbag,

Even beyond this thread - the continual sharing of your vast knowledge ceases to amaze me.
;)
You meant "never" ceases to amaze me...right? ;)

No worries. I like to help when & wherever I can. I figure I've got the resources to put this together, so.... what the hell, right? Might as well have a little informative speaker history thread!

Glad I could help you out with some of my knowledge, although it's hardly "vast". You're welcome.

Let's just leave it at I've got a little info to share sometimes.

:)

Reactionjackson
02-05-2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Scumbag
You meant "never" ceases to amaze me...right? ;)

No worries. I like to help when & wherever I can. I figure I've got the resources to put this together, so.... what the hell, right? Might as well have a little informative speaker history thread!

Glad I could help you out with some of my knowledge, although it's hardly "vast". You're welcome.

Let's just leave it at I've got a little info to share sometimes.

:)

Man. :smacks forehead: That's what overtime on a Saturday will do to 'ya. At any rate, your 'little info' is much appreciated. :)

Geetarpicker
02-05-2005, 10:52 PM
This is a great thread.

Just a heads up guys...

Speaking of "014" cone G12H speakers...

Tomorrow night I'm thinking I might ;) be putting a VERY near mint original 1968 Marshall (1982A) "100" gold faced logo slant cab on our most famous of online auctions. It is in almost time capsule condition AND it has 4 original coned no sticker "014" 55hz cone G12H 30 watt T1281 Greenbacks.

The speakers are all dated (27HA) the exact same day, in August of 1968. The cab is so clean I don't think the speakers have ever been unsoldered or out of the cab, let alone fully broken in.

I'm still trying to decide if I can part with the cab ;) though I'm thinking I might just be a 25 watt kinda guy...

Thanks Scumbag, AWESOME post and pics!

Lamont
02-05-2005, 11:24 PM
hey JimBag,great pics now heres a man who knows his speakers,way cool!! Thanks for the "whats up" on the g12hs in the Marshall 2061 cab(not the 55hz that i was told)But ya know , the more i play them w/ my 9/15 and pa-20,i'm really starting to dig it.
With guys like you and Weber, and lets not forget what emiminminminmce is doing( great competition) celestion is starting to go ?????And it looks like were all gonna benifit from it .
Again ,great work and sorry we missed ya a the Bakers square eggs and tonefest a cpl of fridays ago.

Geetarpicker
02-06-2005, 06:51 PM
I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this. Still, I hope folks appreciate knowing when one of these comes up for sale.
Near mint basketweave slant, with matching original 014 cone G12H 30s, the Holy Grail!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3781262644

saros141
02-06-2005, 07:14 PM
Scumbag, thank you for continually being a source of great info.

Geetarpicker - beautiful cab, man. Please tell us you have another one (maybe not so clean or with different speakers?) that you like even more, and tell us why... I mean, you've got the 59 Paul and the Express, that's two-thirds of ultimate, from many folks' perspective.

Geetarpicker
02-06-2005, 08:56 PM
Well I miss the '68 slant cabinet I owned from 1990-2004, which had '71 era 25 watters in it. I thought I liked this 30 watt cab better when I got it last year. But in time I guess I missed my old cab too much, too used to it I guess. The 30s are awesome, but my Express is a little bright, and the 25s were a nice mellower match. That said the guy I sold my 25 watter cab will sell it back to me at close to the same price we worked with last summer. SO, off to the bay with this one. I REALLY wish I could afford to keep both a 25 watter cab AND a 30 watter cab. To be honest the cab I put on ebay is probably worth quite a bit more than the cab I'm "backgrading" too since my 25 watter cab has speakers 3 years newer than the '68 cab that it is. I bet my 30 watter cab on ebay will actually mellow with time, as the speakers are hardly broken in. Maybe I don't know what I'll be missing once the 30s are played a while. Alas. All that said, I do actually like the lower efficiency of the 25s even if their bass response is a little sloppier.

Got to give to get.

Scumback Speakers
02-06-2005, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Geetarpicker
I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this. Still, I hope folks appreciate knowing when one of these comes up for sale.
Near mint basketweave slant, with matching original 014 cone G12H 30s, the Holy Grail!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3781262644
Damn thread hijackers. LOL :D Pretty clean there, sir. That 69 straight cab of mine looked pretty similar inside, especially that wiring job.

saros141, thank you, and you're welcome. Glad I could post something of value for the members. There's a few more pics to go in this thread, then perhaps it's time to archive it for posterity, huh? Let's let the moderators decide.

Geetarpicker, if you don't get that other cab back you had back, I have four 1971 G12M 25 watters with 102 3 codes inside a straight cab I refurbished... just a thought, or "Plan B" if plan A fails... good luck with your auction.

Geetarpicker
02-06-2005, 11:42 PM
Scumbag,

The cab you are talking about (w/30s) is the one from Gloucester? I ended up with the other straight from that same guy. A total hodge podge of speakers, black 25, green 25, creme 25, and one '68 014 G12H. Sounds like god though and I ain't touchin' it.

Thanks for plan B on the 03 cone 25 watters. Yep the cab that I use to own (and will probably buy back) has x4 Sept. 71 G12Ms. I'll let you know if I need those other 25s.

I'll probably miss the "014" 30s though, and the next owner will probably get them fully broken in and be one happy camper.

G

Scumback Speakers
02-07-2005, 10:10 AM
Geetarpicker...nope, I'm never selling that 69 straight cab...ever! The one I'm talking about is a stripped cab I recovered a few months back. Here's a picture of it: http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/1960b7.jpg

As this was an empty cab that had no speakers to date it with, I was forced to date it using the seller's thoughts, web resourches, etc. The seller came up with 71-73 era based on the "Marshall" embossed plastic, and the checkerboard cloth it used to have. The Marshall embossed plastic went out previous to 74, from what I can determine from sources, so it's pre 74 at worst. I just got new casters for it (Marshall, of course), and the plywood back is being cut (particle board back originally) for it, and I'll transfer the jack, plate, etc. after I tolex it. Tolex is elephant, however, as that's what I found on it from the factory, and it's the 1982 bass cab, so I got some repro logos (Gold Bass, Gold 6" Marshall) logos to put on it, too.

I have a quad of 71/72 G12M 102 3 cones, a quad of 73 G12H30 102 3 lead cones, and a quad of 73 G12H30 "4" cones to install in it when I'm ready to sell, so the lucky buyer can "name their tone" from that list.

I see your cab already hit reserve a few hours after listing it. Bully for you!

AtomEve
02-07-2005, 10:21 AM
Kick butt Jim!!!

Thanks for sharing!

Scumback Speakers
02-07-2005, 10:32 AM
OK, as I wind up this thread, I thought that you should have some examples of the labels you'll see on "Rola Celestions". Generally, anything after the 1971 Celestion factory move is considered a "Rola Celestion" speaker, and not a "Pre Rola" speaker. However, as can be determined from the date codes, cone codes and labels, there are no absolutes in the 71-74 Celestion speaker era, and there were plenty of 102 003, 102 3, 3, 102 014, 102 /14, 4 cones mixed and matched from Celestion's inventory from mid 1971 on. Even the Pre Rola labels with the "Thames Ditton, Surrey" address on the label were available and used through 1973. If the labels were marked with "Ipswich, Suffolk", they were determined to be "Rola Celestion" and not "Pre Rola", regardless of the actual construction parts used in the speaker's assembly. Quite often, the PR black speaker tabs with the 102 003 cones, etc., went out with Rola Celestion labels. I'm sure they just grabbed what was in the bin, smacked on the label, and away they went out the door!

Of course there were also the "transition" labels, and the Rola Labels. I personally have seen all three different labels used in a 14 month time period from April of 1971 thru June of 1972 (how's THAT for confusing!), and for some time afterwards, too, there were lots of cone # changes to further confuse things... nothing like a bunch of "anomalies" to further dilute the issue, huh?

Here are the "Rola Labels" post 1971.
Greenback label from a G12H30 T1281 55hz speaker with the "4" cone, EF 8 (May 8th, 1973):
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/rolagreenlabel.jpg
Creamback or Grayback label from a G12H30 T1217 75hz speaker with a "3" cone, MF 3 (December 3rd, 1973):
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/rolacreamgraylabel.jpg
Blackback label from a G12H30 55hz T1281 55hz speaker with the "444" cone, EK 10 (May 10th, 1977):
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/rolablacklabel.jpg

Leonardo
02-10-2005, 02:14 PM
Anyone seen this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38075&item=3781648714&rd=1

saros141
02-10-2005, 11:02 PM
Well, the font they chose for the pre-Rola 20/25/30 looks like some kind of recent Eras Medium, which slants a bit (leans italic). The original font was aligned straight up and down. They coulda done better.

And it looks like Jim's T1239, pictured in the first post, has this same style repro label. Which explains why the resonance on the label (75 c/s) doesn't match the cone type (55 c/s).

Jeff West
02-10-2005, 11:26 PM
Also, although it tends to get overlooked, there were actually some '60s "Rola Celestion Ltd. Thames Ditton Surrey" labels on Celestions loaded into Marshalls. So we have the phenomenon of "Rola pre Pre-Rolas".

Jeff

Great of you to put all this together, Jim!

Scumback Speakers
02-11-2005, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by saros141
Well, the font they chose for the pre-Rola 20/25/30 looks like some kind of recent Eras Medium, which slants a bit (leans italic). The original font was aligned straight up and down. They coulda done better.

And it looks like Jim's T1239, pictured in the first post, has this same style repro label. Which explains why the resonance on the label (75 c/s) doesn't match the cone type (55 c/s).
Exactly saros141...fakes, swaps, & factory mistakes abound. Like I mentioned earlier, this is why you need to know your cone #'s and Txxxx #'s. Labels are swapped with magnet covers, which after 30 plus years, fall off easily. Although I have in my possession, and have seen, original Pre Rola Celestions G12H's with G12M labels on deep magnet covers. Only the deep magnet covers came on G12H's, the G12M's had less depth (pictured earlier in the thread). Celestion hadn't made up correct power or magnet type labels as late as February 1969 for the G12H series. I just received a Pre Rola T1217 G12H30 102 003 cone with chassis codes of: FB2/M, T1217 (February 2nd, 1969). So between the repros, the swaps, and the factory mistakes, that History Of Marshall book is quite revealing. Anyone looking to purchase these old speakers should invest in one. It's certainly helped me "weed out" the real and the surreal on these speakers.

Scumback Speakers
02-11-2005, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Jeff West
Also, although it tends to get overlooked, there were actually some '60s "Rola Celestion Ltd. Thames Ditton Surrey" labels on Celestions loaded into Marshalls. So we have the phenomenon of "Rola pre Pre-Rolas".

Jeff

Great of you to put all this together, Jim!
You're welcome, Jeff. I'm sure you could help with whatever I've missed or forgotten, too. It's not like you're unlearned in the subject. ;)

Defoldman
05-27-2005, 07:15 AM
Great info "Scumbag" very interesting and well researched.
Do you have any pictures of the T1174 and T1134 speakers??
It would be good to get a feel for the transition period from Alnico to ceramic.
Hope you can oblige.
Cheers,
DOM

Scumback Speakers
05-27-2005, 08:25 AM
The only T1134 I ever saw was in pictures. A guy out here in Southern California had one. Went to buy it, he pulled it out of storage and the cone was torn or punctured.

It had the very small oval red Celestion label on the magnet, no green cover on that one, and it was an early model. According to the HOM book, it was the predecessor to the G12H. Judging by the magnet size I saw in pictures, that would be likely.

Never saw the other T1174, sorry.

Defoldman
05-27-2005, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Scumbag
The only T1134 I ever saw was in pictures. A guy out here in Southern California had one. Went to buy it, he pulled it out of storage and the cone was torn or punctured.

It had the very small oval red Celestion label on the magnet, no green cover on that one, and it was an early model. According to the HOM book, it was the predecessor to the G12H. Judging by the magnet size I saw in pictures, that would be likely.

Never saw the other T1174, sorry.

Thanks for the reply

So we are looking at the G12H pre-dating the G12M then?
I know the G12H definitely presents a very "Alnico" feel in it's efficiency and that is what Celestion were after. But what about early G12M's with out the Green-back cover?

Scumback Speakers
05-27-2005, 10:26 AM
No, the G12 T1134 was first, somewhere around the November, 64 timeframe, according to the HOM. However, they didn't make any weight distinctions on the magnets at that time. It seems it was just the "ceramic" G12 (no H or M designation). According to the HOM, the T1221 G12M Greenback was introduced in May 66, and the T1217 G12H30 75 hz lead cone (successor to the T1134) came out at the same time.

Keep in mind, when these speakers were "entered" or "introduced" could be months ahead of when anyone had them in amps that were sold to the public, so it could be six months after Celestion's introduction before Vox/Marshall/etc. could have actually installed them for production.

To further confound the issue, speakers are easily changed, so there's lots of room for variables.

Jeff West
05-27-2005, 10:38 AM
I've got a 2/66 T1217 greenback, which is the earliest I've seen although I've heard of one from 12/65. These are G12H25s not G12H30, though of course with the 50oz. magnet, no G12H30 from '66 that I'm aware of. Can't recall offhand when the earliest T1221 I might have seen was from.

BTW, Defoldman, '66 G12H25 w/1777 cone is the closest sonically of the greenbacks to the alnico G12 in many ways, IMO, more so than later H models, although still a little "cleaner" maybe. They're really loud!

Jeff

Scumback Speakers
05-27-2005, 02:11 PM
Hey Jeff, I'd love to borrow that speaker if at all possible. I'll pay for shipping and all that, of course, let me know if that's a possibility.

I've got an early 68 (01CA) 20 watt G12M 003 cone coming in from the UK in the next week or so. I think I'll have my G12H30 55hz Heritage speakers by then as well. I'm getting (Sam Ash honored the $119 each price including shipping! Whoa!), one 16, one 8 ohm model.

I'll probably see about getting LeonC and Moods together for a recording session of everything, make mp3 clips, and post them for all to listen to, if I can arrange it. Afterwards, I'll put up a list of what mp3 was created by what speaker/amp/guitar combination.

That should make it easy on everyone to determine what they like, or don't. It will be a good 10 days before I'm ready to do this, however, as the PR 20 watter is only getting boxed up today, and then shipped to me, so it will be a bit before I'm ready to proceed.

fakeox
05-27-2005, 02:16 PM
Sounds like some good taste testing!

fakeox
05-28-2005, 12:49 AM
For myself, would Love to hear a MP3 postmortem of this gettogether. To me, it seems like the speaker world has finally blossomed aftter 50 Years of Rock n Roll. The Guys in sunny CA doing this have got a chance to to lead countless pickers to that illusive sound in their head. The more sample speakers, configurations, brands, guitars, heads, text we have to wade through the better. We have the time.

Andy H.
05-28-2005, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Scumbag
... nothing like a bunch of "anomalies" to further dilute the issue, huh? I guess I have a couple.

A Vox labelled Greenback:
FC26R (June 1970)
15 ohms T1252
cone: 23 102 003

Sent the details to Dr Decibel at Celestion, who commented:
"T1252 is noted in our records as a Lightweight
speaker for Vox and is actually a G12L rather than a G12M which makes it much rarer."
Certainly I have found very little info of these (?20watter) G12Ls.


The other is a Blackback G12H:
16 ohm,
55 Hz
GJ23 (July 1976)
1886X
cone: 1105
Dr Decibels comment:
"T1886 is a 15ohm G12H special for Marshall"

Found DunxB, (formerly of Celestion and once Dr Decibel himself), commenting over on the Plexi Palace forum:
"I think I remember finding a box of 1105's in stock, and they were a low resonance guitar cone very similar to the 0444, but not quite the same (I can't remember what the difference was). I think it was done as a special for a customer, and was later used in a G12H-100 for Marshall."

I'd really appreciate any further info on either of these G12s.

Many thanks,

Andy.

GeetarGoul
05-29-2005, 11:35 AM
Hey Scumbag! Long time no talk! How you doin'?

What date of manufacture would these numbers signify?

G12M
25 watts
16 ohms
75c/s

cones 3 102 003

numbers on the frames:
T1221
Z17DB (a little blury)

and
T1221
Z15DB (a little blury)


Also: what's the correct glue to reattach a greenback plastic cover to the magnet? one of mine came off. I don't want to melt the plastic by using the wrong stuff.

908SSP
05-29-2005, 12:47 PM
Looks like april 1957 or april 1993 :confused:

GeetarGoul
05-29-2005, 01:33 PM
Too bad my camera is shot but my speakers look exactly like this one:
http://scumbagamps.com/greenbacks/t1511.jpg


Maybe the Z doesn't mean anything. i just found this page: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html

So wouldn't

17DB be 17th of April (4th month) 1969 (B)? and
15DB be 15th of April 1969?

The speaker above shows some king "Z" where mine does.

Scumback Speakers
06-02-2005, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by GeetarGoul
Maybe the Z doesn't mean anything. i just found this page: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html

So wouldn't

17DB be 17th of April (4th month) 1969 (B)? and
15DB be 15th of April 1969?

The speaker above shows some king "Z" where mine does. [/B]
You've got the dates right now, Chuck. Actually, the first two digits are the day of the month. So 17DB is April 17, 1969, and 15DB is April 15, 1969. Forget the Z, or any other number in front, I've never been able to match this up to anything in the Celestion date charts. I use the one from abrown.com (Tone Tubby speaker developers) since it covers speakers up to the 90's...

http://www.abrown.com/datecode.htm

Regarding cover glue. OCSR, www.speakerrepair.com, sells some brown glue like the stuff Celestion uses. Pretty cheap, as I remember, under $5. It gets brittle after 30 years, and you may have to glue it down again at that time. If you still have the speakers working, of course!

Scumback Speakers
06-02-2005, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Andy H.
I guess I have a couple.

A Vox labelled Greenback:
FC26R (June 1970)
15 ohms T1252
cone: 23 102 003

Sent the details to Dr Decibel at Celestion, who commented:
"T1252 is noted in our records as a Lightweight
speaker for Vox and is actually a G12L rather than a G12M which makes it much rarer."
Certainly I have found very little info of these (?20watter) G12Ls.


The other is a Blackback G12H:
16 ohm,
55 Hz
GJ23 (July 1976)
1886X
cone: 1105
Dr Decibels comment:
"T1886 is a 15ohm G12H special for Marshall"

Found DunxB, (formerly of Celestion and once Dr Decibel himself), commenting over on the Plexi Palace forum:
"I think I remember finding a box of 1105's in stock, and they were a low resonance guitar cone very similar to the 0444, but not quite the same (I can't remember what the difference was). I think it was done as a special for a customer, and was later used in a G12H-100 for Marshall."

I'd really appreciate any further info on either of these G12s.

Many thanks,

Andy. I've got the T1886 speaker here with an 1105 cone. This was a special low resonance 55hz cone made for a special order (DunxB and I are friends, and I think he was responding to a post I made on the Plexi Palace, IIRC). It sounds like a good G12H30 55hz. No worries on that one.

I've got Pre Rola G12S speakers that look exactly like G12M's, magnets are smaller, don't know the exact weight. G12L's I don't own, so I can't comment on those. Typically they do have smaller magnets, and it's noticable.
A T1252 I don't have. A T1417, a G12S, I do have. The magnet looks like a G12M in size, but it's supposed to be lighter. Go figure. No speaker cover, so I can't tell you if it's a 20 or 25 watt.

Andy H.
06-02-2005, 11:16 AM
G12L's I don't own, so I can't comment on those. Typically they do have smaller magnets, and it's noticable. Thanks for the reply. Yes, it does have a noticeably smaller magnet - only 20 Oz allegedly, from what I have found info wise. Don't know how I didn't notice before in fact. It was only when Dr dB replied that I had another look - THEN it was obvious...!

It sounds like a good G12H30 55hz. No worries on that one. It does to me too. :)

Cheers, and good luck with those plexi Recordings. :cool:

Andy.

Scumback Speakers
06-02-2005, 12:28 PM
Well, between the 65 Amps London, the KT-66 Plexi clone I just purchased, and the 68 50 watt Marshall Plexi (unmodified), the bases are definitely covered, I think. I already know how great these type speakers sound with my 6V6 based amps, so I'm not going to bring mine (or anyone elses) as I figure most folks are using the above amps for their main gigging rigs (now that might be wrong, so don't flame me! LOL), so that's why they were selected. Also because they're probably more familiar with these style amps than single ended Class A amps.

Sure, I run my dual 6V6 amp head thru a 2x12 and a 4x12, but I realize I just like the "big sound" that amount of speakers and size of cabinet provide.

Jeff West
06-03-2005, 04:47 PM
"Hey Jeff, I'd love to borrow that speaker if at all possible. I'll pay for shipping and all that, of course, let me know if that's a possibility."

Jim- I'm just back from outta town in Florida for awhile, away from e-mail . . .

Did you receive that '68 G12M-20 yet?

You can borrow any speaker I've got, but unfortunately the 2/24/66 G12H25 went open coil a couple years ago, Ted W. tried to save the cone since it looked absolutely virginal, but in the end couldn't get a new VC on w/o shimming and some other stuff that added too much mass, so he subseqhently reconed it. That's the G12H25 with the white VC former I told you I've seen taken apart. Sounds pretty close now, and just about as good, but maybe distorts a little sooner and definitely isn't original.

I've got another '66 T1217 w/1777 but it's been on loan for months to a friend in Alabama, and he recently left for Europe. I'll try to get it back for you, but not immediately I'm afraid.

I think you're covered on most other stuff. I don't have a Heritage. I have the T1901 greenbacks which are 8 ohm G12M25 55hz w/bass spiders and 102/14 cones, I've got a pair from '72 I think and I've never seen nor heard of another T1901 despite asking for years now and then on these boards. I've still got the specific T1221 greenback w/102/3 that Ted ran plots on, although I know you have some of those. Do you want to throw the McGourty 20W Alien in the ring, or are you sticking to Celestions?

If you want to borrow any of those I'll overpack 'em up and send Priority Mail this weekend.

Jeff W.

GeetarGoul
06-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Regarding these older speakers, do you think the tone is more in the magnet or in the cones? I've thoroughly enjoyed all the re-coned vintage speakers I've owned or tried. I personally think the old magnets have more to do with the tone than the cones.

Scumback Speakers
06-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Jeff, to be fair to everyone, send the Alien, I'm good with that, too! I've got about 8 of the G12M 102/003, or 102 3 cones, so those I don't need. The 68 G12M-20-003 should be here the middle of next week. Email me and I'll give you my Fedex acct. #, I don't want you to pay for the shipping.

GeetarGoul... I used to believe there was something to the magnet theory...right up until Ted made the Scumbacks sound like the originals I sent him to recreate. Obviously, if Ted used parts that were new, and then tweaked them, the magnet theory is out, as I'm willing to bet Ted isn't sourcing 35 year old magnets for me (not that I asked, but I seriously doubt it).

GeetarGoul
06-03-2005, 06:06 PM
Until you and Weber came along, old speakers were the only way to go. ;) :dude

RGB
10-25-2005, 08:44 AM
I recently bought a 1980 2104 with Rola Creambacks...which I don't have in front of me, so I can't offer more info now, other than it says Rola Celestion on the label and these things are tan in color without a hint of green and are 75hz models. They say G12H30 on them as well.

I've gigged them a couple of times and they sound great, but after finding this thread, I'm wondering if I should pull them until I can figure out their value.

The guy who sold me the amp says he paid $700 for the pair, shipped from the UK and that they were built in the 70's.

I took that info with a grain of salt, but now I'm wondering if they really are rare, since I didn't see a single pic of one in this thread.....either that or they're so common that they didn't rate a mention. I can offer more info tonight if needed.

What do I have here?

Scumback Speakers
10-25-2005, 11:36 AM
RGB, you should email drdecibel@celestion.com with your Txxxx (2104, is that the cab model #?) info and date codes from the side of your speaker frame. The pics in this thread will tell you where to look for the cone codes, so you can trace that down now, too, and send that along with your email to DrD. I took a look in the HOM and your speaker cab model, 2104, doesn't come up. Speaker frame #s stop at the 1990, so 2104 was out of that range to be identified as well.

Good luck. Send me some pics if you'd like and I'll try to help figure it out for you.

RGB
10-25-2005, 11:47 AM
Thanks SB! The 2104 is a JMP 2-12 50 watt MV combo...the combo version of the 2204....sorry for the confusion....and thanks for the suggestion! I'll email the info when I get home. I'll take some pix too. Might be easier if you can see em huh?

Thanks again!

Rick

murkat
11-26-2005, 10:58 AM
Hey scmbag, could you update/ refresh the pics in this thread? seams that they wont appear for me and would like to see the examples, I am getting alot of requests for cone codes on my old t1221's and having hard time locating without examples~
Thanx~ Jay

munceyboyjoe
11-30-2005, 05:12 PM
Greeting everyone. I've recently got hold of some Celestions I thought would be worth adding to this thread, 4 G12S's. Two bear the date code ME 28V, model code T1417, and two bear the date code HA2X, model number T1416. Both pairs look pretty much identical.
Using the link earlier in the thread, I thought this would date them to '72 and '68 respectively. However, the stickers on them both say Rola Celestion, so I guess they aren't that kind of vintage.
In any case, I'm still interested to find out about them if anybody knows much about them, I didn't pay a huge price for them and intend to use them so any comments are welcome...heres a pic of one of the HA2X ones;

http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/4844/speaker4gs.jpg

Gotta wire them up in a 4 x 12 now which I'm slightly nervous about, everything around me has a habit of breaking.

rastaman
11-30-2005, 05:39 PM
Scumbag, do you sell any 10" speakers that are similar to a Greenback? I have a Marshall 4/10 I'm considering replacing the speakers with the Celestion G10 Vintage. I know they say the're like a V30 but there is not much offered in the 10" that I know of.

Scumback Speakers
11-30-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by murkat
Hey scmbag, could you update/ refresh the pics in this thread? seams that they wont appear for me and would like to see the examples, I am getting alot of requests for cone codes on my old t1221's and having hard time locating without examples~
Thanx~ Jay
Reloaded the pics for you...

murkat
11-30-2005, 08:04 PM
thank you muchly. The pics really help out alot :)
~ Jay

Scumback Speakers
11-30-2005, 08:49 PM
murkat, my new webdesigner will be taking this down any day now, so download all the pics and the thread to keep, OK? I thought this was in the archives of the TGP, but I could be wrong. I'll have to check.

murkat
11-30-2005, 09:02 PM
Thanks scumbag. All is good :) i aplaud your efforts and heads up.

Mine look just like~http://scumbagamps.com/greenbacks/102-3cone.jpg

with some road warrior dust on the top two being a slant cab. But... codes are not tobe found :( , but, they look original. may have to send them off for authentication, if there recones, and they never have been in the last 25 years I have had, then it was a great job since the ohm loads are no more than 14.4 (one is 13.7) ... interesting. Thanks again.

Timster
11-30-2005, 10:15 PM
Awesome info Scumbag.

LarryN
12-14-2005, 06:11 PM
I just bought a G 12 M greenback from ebay. The label looks exactly like the second pic with the 16 ohm, 75 c/s label. Is it possible it's actually a 55hz cone? Is it true that the label means little? I guess I won't really know until it arrives. I'll check back when it does.

LarryN
12-17-2005, 02:03 PM
It's awful quiet in here.

Andy H.
12-17-2005, 02:40 PM
It's awful quiet in here.
Just waiting for the post to arrive... ;)

Andy.

LarryN
01-01-2006, 06:47 PM
Turns out to be a 102 003 cone. Sounds great. I used it at a New Year's show with a G12-65. Thanks for checking in, Andy H.

murkat
01-01-2006, 07:02 PM
Well, I did offer mine up for sale at one time, no takers. So I re~installed them back into the old cab, plugged in my budda twinmaster.... wowzygoosh ;) I'm keeping :)

LarryN
01-02-2006, 02:22 AM
Well, I did offer mine up for sale at one time, no takers. So I re~installed them back into the old cab, plugged in my budda twinmaster.... wowzygoosh ;) I'm keeping :)

That's amazing, considering how much value is placed on these speakers. I paid $76 for mine. I have a '71 102/3 with a serious tear that I'll repair and team up with the 003. They just sizzle with tone! I just looked at Dr. Decibel and if I'm dating this right, my ebay 102/003 is from Jan. 16, 1963. It's coded 16HA and T1221. I'm not sure if i'm dating it right, though. Just like the first greenback pic in this thread, it says "Thames Ditton Surrey" and no "Rola".

Scumback Speakers
01-02-2006, 09:37 AM
That's amazing, considering how much value is placed on these speakers. I paid $76 for mine. I have a '71 102/3 with a serious tear that I'll repair and team up with the 003. They just sizzle with tone! I just looked at Dr. Decibel and if I'm dating this right, my ebay 102/003 is from Jan. 16, 1963. It's coded 16HA and T1221. I'm not sure if i'm dating it right, though. Just like the first greenback pic in this thread, it says "Thames Ditton Surrey" and no "Rola".
The speaker you have is made in 1968, as they didn't make T1221 G12M's until the mid 60's. However, August 16, 1968 is still a very good year. Here's a date code chart for you to reference.

http://www.abrown.com/datecode.htm

Babaji
01-02-2006, 10:22 AM
Thanks for posting this!
"T1862 & T1234 G12H30 heavy magnet (50 oz. ceramic magnet), Pulsonic 102 003 75hz lead cone model, 8 ohms (pretty rare in 8 ohms). I've seen a total of 7 of these in 200 plus Pre Rola purchases. As rare as Pre Rola's are, these are amongst the rarest.
The T1862 came out of an open back combo I was told, so I'd have to guess the T1234 did, too. This info can't be confirmed, however.
T1862 G12H30 8 ohm pic:
This particular speaker was used in the steel chassis, EL34 50 watt trem combos (Bluesbreakers)that were exported to the US in the 67-68 period. The one that I own has them. Your photo is the first that I have seen of these particular speakers outside of my amp! I had an early Park stripe-front cab in the early 1990's that had the early silver(like vox blues) version in it. Sadly, it was sold to keep the ball rolling! I still have a pair of 68 topcabs, one with the original G12 25's, the other with four silver bulldogs.
Bill

LarryN
01-02-2006, 05:08 PM
The speaker you have is made in 1968, as they didn't make T1221 G12M's until the mid 60's. However, August 16, 1968 is still a very good year. Here's a date code chart for you to reference.

http://www.abrown.com/datecode.htm

Thanks for clarifying that. I get a little off course with those charts sometimes. They were a little sloppy with the edge-doping on this one, (production quality relaxation?) but it doesn't hurt the sound. By the way, Scumbag, what you are doing is phenomenol! I get together with John at Brown Soun occasionally to test speaker voicing. One of my old music buddies, Steve Kimock, was involved with the development of the paper-cone Tone Tubby and helped with the hempcone to some extent. The greenback revival trend is very exciting and you appear to be at the epicenter. Keep up the great direction. Eventually I will try one of yours.

LarryN
01-04-2006, 11:24 AM
The speaker you have is made in 1968, as they didn't make T1221 G12M's until the mid 60's. However, August 16, 1968 is still a very good year. Here's a date code chart for you to reference.

http://www.abrown.com/datecode.htm

Are you sure about the year? Both code charts say that the date number came first until 1967.

Scumback Speakers
01-04-2006, 11:51 AM
Are you sure about the year? Both code charts say that the date number came first until 1967.
Pretty sure. If you look in the HOM (History of Marshall book by Doyle) they have a pretty long chapter on Txxxx #'s and when they were introduced. According to the HOM on page 137, the T1221 Greenback was introduced on May 6, 1966 so that kind of rules out the earlier date, plus they only had alnico magnet speakers before then (if the HOM is right) so putting the ceramic magnet construction into the equation along with the date code, and the HOM, that would mean it's not a 63...sorry!

But don't despair, that's still a very desirable speaker, and should be worth at least $250 anywhere on the planet, probably more.

keith_t4e
01-04-2006, 03:54 PM
what can you tell me about the black back which says marshall rola celestion T2876

Scumback Speakers
01-04-2006, 04:25 PM
what can you tell me about the black back which says marshall rola celestion T2876
That should be a G12-80 speaker. 50 oz "H" magnet, 444 55hz cone, although I have seen it with a 1777 75 hz cone as well when reconed improperly. I have two original T2876 speakers here, both with 444 cones (same as used in a Vintage 30 and later model G12H30 55hz speakers from the mid to late 70's). One I've owned since day one, as it came new in my Randall RG-80 I bought new in 1982. The other is a BN21 date code, meaning it was made on February 21, 1980.

Hope that helps...

LarryN
01-07-2006, 01:49 PM
Pretty sure. If you look in the HOM (History of Marshall book by Doyle) they have a pretty long chapter on Txxxx #'s and when they were introduced. According to the HOM on page 137, the T1221 Greenback was introduced on May 6, 1966 so that kind of rules out the earlier date, plus they only had alnico magnet speakers before then (if the HOM is right) so putting the ceramic magnet construction into the equation along with the date code, and the HOM, that would mean it's not a 63...sorry!

But don't despair, that's still a very desirable speaker, and should be worth at least $250 anywhere on the planet, probably more.


Thanks again Scumbag. I'm not too worried about the value of it; more having a chart that I can decipher!
:jo

Scumback Speakers
01-08-2006, 06:44 AM
After alot of "cut & paste" this morning, the Greenback pics are reloaded at my new site, www.scumbackspeakers.com (http://www.southbayampworks.com) So I figured I'd better bump this so that everyone knows I'll be reloading the tolex, grillcloth and piping tutorials as well. Have a good day!

murkat
01-11-2006, 09:22 PM
Here's one for kiks and giggles, I have two 2104's (Marshall 50 wt combos)
one has its original T3120's ( AN29) marshall labeled celestions, while the other has one T3120 ( LM14), and a odd ball celestion T3054 ( CN19 )
probably replaced, sounds great NLT, what can you tell me? Thanks man.

Scumback Speakers
01-11-2006, 09:50 PM
T3120's are Celestion G12-65 speakers, so are T3054's.

eddiemax
01-14-2006, 02:44 PM
Hi there. ive got 4 G12H speakers in 2 cabs. ive only removed 2 from one cab so far to see if i could find a cone number. but definitly cannot see one! Is this normal?

Codes on the chassis are both T1234 FH26X. There doesnt appear to be any re-coning goings on present.

Only other info ive got :- 75C/s, 8 ohm 'Pre Rola' Label on back.

Do i have to have a white number on the cone for them to be original?
Any ideas much appreciated! :)
Ive taken some pics, but no idea how to post them! lol

Edd

Scumback Speakers
01-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Edd, if you can email me the pics, I can take a look and let you know...usually they're under the speaker tabs and are hard to see without a good light, flashlight or the right angle...but that's "typically" where they are. Here's where to look...
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-14code.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/1023conecode.jpg
later in the 70's they were placed all over the cone from top to bottom and could also be in black ink, as well as white. Here's a G12H30 T1281 55hz 444 cone that's in black ink.
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/444code2.jpg

mentoneman
01-25-2006, 11:19 AM
Hi-

I have a question,

here is a speaker I recently purchased for $76:

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/creamback%20gh30.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/rola%20sticker.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/celestion%20code.jpg

it is a recone, and it is currently blown---it rubs when the cone is gently pushed in and out---the seller said he didn't realize it was blown. i can return for a refund. but is it worth it to recone it and keep it?

i'm receiving a pair of reissue greenbacks, and one reissue gh30 to overhaul my bogner uberkab with, and this was going to complete the cab, but now i'm unsure what to do---is this 55hz gh30 killer as a recone and compatable with a new scumback or heritage?

laurencer83
01-27-2006, 12:11 AM
will you guys check this auction out. are these legit speakers? i haven't seen these before(heavy magnet/25 watts).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Celestion-Greenback-G12H-pre-rola-Plexi-era-1967_W0QQitemZ7385659511QQcategoryZ38075QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

is the bent speaker repairable w/o a recone?

Jeff West
01-27-2006, 07:45 AM
Yes, those are rare these days but definitely look real. Mid July '67.

The G12H with the 50 oz magnet like on later G12H30s appeared by the beginning of 1966 (although the very earliet ones from the first half of '66 I've seen have all been 75 c/s T1217s). For about the first two years that they were appearing in Marshalls Celestion rated them all (G12Hs) at 25W, not 30; during this same time frame all the G12M models like T1221 were rated 20W. By mid '68 they were switching to 25 and 30 on the labels consistently (sometimes earlier, and sometimes by applying new little stickers over old labels).

Original cones (like these) on the earliest ones were marked "1777" on the 75 c/s versions and "SP 444" on the 55 hz. The "xx 102 003" and "xx 102 014" "Pulsonic" cones were slightly later, although they were coming in by late 1967 as well. I agree with the seller that the earliest ones tend to sound a little different, although my first-hand experience with a couple of 9/67 T1281s with "sp444" is limited, compared to some Lead models that I've had for years. He's right too that the greenback color tends to be a little different olive on the real early ones, and there were a few other distinctive features related to the VC former, doping (on both sides of the surround, usually), and terminal boards that can distinguish them from all subsequent versions. Also, the magnet polarity was often -but not always- reversed on the real early ones as they came from the factory, compared to most Celestions, don't ask me why! I just lost an original T1217 from 2/66 with "1777" cone in Katrina- had loaned to a friend whose house flooded.

I notice from the photo that these have labels that say "75 c/s" not 55, but that's actually authentic for many or most T1281 from pre-'68. But I'd consider these low resonance models - excellent!

Hard to say about the rubbing one without checking it out, although if I had it I'd definitely try to bring it back to operation before reconing.

Regards-
Jeff W.

Scumback Speakers
01-27-2006, 09:23 AM
Hi-

I have a question,

here is a speaker I recently purchased for $76:

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/creamback%20gh30.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/rola%20sticker.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/.Pictures/celestion%20code.jpg

it is a recone, and it is currently blown---it rubs when the cone is gently pushed in and out---the seller said he didn't realize it was blown. i can return for a refund. but is it worth it to recone it and keep it?

i'm receiving a pair of reissue greenbacks, and one reissue gh30 to overhaul my bogner uberkab with, and this was going to complete the cab, but now i'm unsure what to do---is this 55hz gh30 killer as a recone and compatable with a new scumback or heritage?
There are a couple of options for your blown speaker...
1) Send it back for a refund, as a blown speaker is never worth more than $25 to me (come on, the tone is in the cone/suspension, not the metal frame, label OR the magnet) as a "hulk".
2) Get a partial refund (whatever your comfortable with, but I'd ask for $50) then get it reconed.

Recone options:
1) Original Celestion kit from OCSR (http://speakerrepair.com) $95, and it will be the V30 recone kit...so upper mid peak is present, and basically you'll turn your vintage T1281 into a V30. Shipping back and forth probably $25-30 within the lower 48 states to Orange County, Ca (SoCal).

2) Generic recone kit from OCSR, $65, plus shipping, etc. 444 55hz cone kit, which sounds as good or better than the Celestion V30 kit.

3) Scumback H55 recone $95 plus shipping, so you're still in the $120-$130 range after shipping, etc.

It's up to you to decide what makes the most $$$ sense here...since it's not an original cone anymore, the speaker isn't collectible. If it's just to make your cab configuration complete, figure out the cost options and weigh in your mind what you think it's worth.

Personally, and this is my advice to you, I'd just send it back for a refund, and buy a new speaker to match your other Celestion RI you have coming in, so they're all the same age, cone styles (at least matching pairs), and efficiency.

Good luck!

Scumback Speakers
01-27-2006, 09:29 AM
will you guys check this auction out. are these legit speakers? i haven't seen these before(heavy magnet/25 watts).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Celestion-Greenback-G12H-pre-rola-Plexi-era-1967_W0QQitemZ7385659511QQcategoryZ38075QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

is the bent speaker repairable w/o a recone?
As Jeff West posted, these are real looking, although very early models. The bent frame speaker may or may not be repairable. It depends on how badly it's rubbing, frame damage, etc. Weber might be able to a voice coil repair on it, if you send it to him, but it might be too far gone, too, so keep that in mind.

The opening bid might be a little too high (to me at least) considering one speaker is rubbing, and only three are good. However, I've spent up to $350 each on three good ones, so as long as you know that you should only count on three speakers, plus the cost of whatever it takes to repair/recone the fourth, you should just bid as you see fit.

Good luck!

Jeff West
01-27-2006, 10:35 AM
Hi Jim- Assuming that Weber is still not doing recones for the general public on non-VSTs, what's the procedure for getting a Scumback recone? And are all configs available (G12M 75 and 55, G12H 75 and 55, etc.)?

Also, should one assume there's no limitation to an actual M25 or H30 among blown Celestions, e.g., could redo a dead G12H-100 as an H30 Scumback, etc.?

Jeff

Scumback Speakers
01-27-2006, 10:43 AM
Hey Jeff! Hope you're doing well! Sent you an email, too.

The recone thing is limited to G12M, G12H, Alnico Blue/Gold type frames. Basically I will recone most 35 oz, 40 oz and 50 oz magnet weight frames, as long as they have 1.75" (1 3/4") voice coils. G12M-70's have 1.5" voice coils, so those I won't rebuild/recone.

T1221, T1511 G12M types are compatible
and T1281, T1217, T1534 G12H30 models are, too.

Here's the recone page for those who want to get their old Celestion frames rebuilt as Scumbacks.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/recones.html

Jeff West
01-27-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey Jim- Thanks. Actually, the G12H-100 was just for an example, I've got one but it's working fine, they're hard to damage! They do have G12H30 frame and magnet, though. I do have a couple of blown oddball T#s that use G12M25 frames, I might get around to sending those.

I'll get on your e-mail to catch up on a few things . . .

I noticed the '67 Bass G12H25s went quick for BIN. Did you get 'em, laurencer83?

Jeff

beej
02-06-2006, 01:26 PM
First off, thanks for all the info in this thread- it's really invaluable!

I picked up a Type 1982 Bass Lead cab the other day for CDN$100. Inside I've got 4 speakers, all G12Ms. Need some advice on two of 'em.

The top two are great: T1221's w/ 102 003 cones in perfect shape. Date codes (DB11S, DB814S) put them both at April 1969. Though, there seems to be an extra digit at the end of the codes that confuses me.

http://www.bigue.com/images/g12m-1221-rear-med.jpg
http://www.bigue.com/images/g12ms-1221-rear-med.jpg

There's also a G12M T1511 (DD21=Apr '71) with a cone that says "101 014" (not 102 014 as I'd expect). This cone looks to have been been ripped and glued at some past date:

http://www.bigue.com/images/g12m-1551-side-2-med.jpg
http://www.bigue.com/images/g12m-1551-front-med.jpg

Lastly, there's a T2168 (FF188=Jun '73) with a "3" cone that's missing a dust cap. It's the only one with a Rola label on it:

http://www.bigue.com/images/g12m-2168-rear-1-med.jpg
http://www.bigue.com/images/g12m-2168-front-med.jpg

So- questions for the experts:

1) The extra digit in the date codes ... normal?
2) The 1511 - any thoughts on the glue job? Should I leave this as is or think about a recone/replacement?
3) The missing dust cap ... can/should I get this replaced?

Or should I just try and get two of something (e.g. 1221's) to match the two good ones I have and make a complete set?

Thanks!

beej
02-07-2006, 01:54 PM
Bumpin' this up for you speaker experts :D

Scumback Speakers
02-07-2006, 10:37 PM
beej, OK, a couple of things to note. The T1511 speaker uses a 102 014 cone, 55hz bass response, known as the bass cone. From the pic you've posted it looks to me like the cone code # is just smudged. I've seen that before, so I'd say your 101 014 is actually a 102 014. The 3 cone is a 75 hz lead cone, dating from the early to mid 70's. Your T1511 looks to be, well, pretty thrashed. Not sure how that one is going to sound, but if you can have it tested at a local speaker reconer, do it, just so you know if its good or not. If it's got voice coil rub, you should have it reconed.

Past that, the dust cap should be put back on the other G12M so that you don't collect any debris in the voice coil gap. That can be trouble.

Mixing speakers can do wonders to fatten up your sound. I do it all the time. Popular mixes are a 75 hz lead cone G12H type, and the two different G12M types, 75 and 55 hz.

Do a search and you'll get lots of opinions on the tones available.

beej
02-08-2006, 09:13 AM
Much appreciated. I'll get those two tested and see whether it's worth fixing/reconing them.

Odds are I'll buy two new speakers (prob'ly Scumbacks from all the great things I've heard) to put into the cab. As you say, I'll mix it up - maybe two 55 Hz cones to go with the 75 Hz T1221s.

Thanks!

Scumback Speakers
02-08-2006, 09:16 AM
beej, you're quite welcome, good luck! I hope that T1511 passes tests. I actually have an old H30/55hz 102 014 that looks just like that after being fixed...looks like hell, sounds fine, and passes the local Celestion reconer's tests, too.

Just looks fugly as hell, though...:D

keith_t4e
02-09-2006, 08:28 PM
mine have MM11 T2876 on them. They are black back celestions in a slant cabinet. I've heard they are 80 watt spks. Are they worth anything other than just selling it as an old used cab?

steve10358
02-09-2006, 08:48 PM
Can anyone describe the difference in tone of a pre-rola, my grey-back rola and the black backs? I had never seen the silver until I got my cab. i just thought there was green, creme and black.

Also, does anyone know where I can get oldstyle brass casterplates like what is on my '73?

And how can I tighten up the rivets on the one handle. When were the metal handles introduced?

S.

Scumback Speakers
02-09-2006, 08:49 PM
T2876 Celestions are G12-80 speakers. They're pretty decent speakers, I have three myself. Great for high powered combos, or if you have a 2x12 cab with them you can run a 100 watt head no problem. They're not made anymore, but they're good speakers (about the last I liked besides the G12-65). Going prices for them are around $100-125 each.

keith_t4e
02-09-2006, 09:20 PM
Thanks a lot guy. Are they anything like the 80 watt speakers out today. I see one 80 and one lower wattage speaker a lot. Doesn't the lower wattage spkr still make the cab vulnerable when using a high wattage head?

Scumback Speakers
02-10-2006, 10:32 AM
Can anyone describe the difference in tone of a pre-rola, my grey-back rola and the black backs? I had never seen the silver until I got my cab. i just thought there was green, creme and black.

Also, does anyone know where I can get oldstyle brass casterplates like what is on my '73?

And how can I tighten up the rivets on the one handle. When were the metal handles introduced?

S.
steve10358, the difference in tone between the Pre Rola's and Rola's is that the PR's just sound a little bit more toneful/juicier/more vibrant. It's something you have to hear in person, trying to describe it in words will be tough. But you know it when you hear it.

Brass casterplates are also tough to find. Check eBay, but they won't be cheap, and it's likely there will be some "issues" with the casters, as they're usually sold as sets, from what I've seen.

You can't tighten up the rivets on your handles (that I know of, at least), as they're "punched in" via a pressure fit. Once they come loose, they're pretty much toast. I always replace them with 10/32 machine screws (1" long) and 10/32 T-nuts. Metal handles were used from approximately 66 to late 71/early 72.

Scumback Speakers
02-10-2006, 10:35 AM
Thanks a lot guy. Are they anything like the 80 watt speakers out today. I see one 80 and one lower wattage speaker a lot. Doesn't the lower wattage spkr still make the cab vulnerable when using a high wattage head?
The G12-80's sound different (better) than Classic Lead 80's, the 70/80 speaker currently made. The lower wattage speaker does make the cab vulnerable when using a high wattage head. And you're welcome for the info. Happy I could help you out.

LarryN
02-13-2006, 05:06 PM
Does anyone sell an exact replacement dustcap for the Greenback?

gpecoulas
02-13-2006, 09:43 PM
steve10358, the difference in tone between the Pre Rola's and Rola's is that the PR's just sound a little bit more toneful/juicier/more vibrant. It's something you have to hear in person, trying to describe it in words will be tough. But you know it when you hear it.

Brass casterplates are also tough to find. Check eBay, but they won't be cheap, and it's likely there will be some "issues" with the casters, as they're usually sold as sets, from what I've seen.

You can't tighten up the rivets on your handles (that I know of, at least), as they're "punched in" via a pressure fit. Once they come loose, they're pretty much toast. I always replace them with 10/32 machine screws (1" long) and 10/32 T-nuts. Metal handles were used from approximately 66 to late 71/early 72.

SouthBay, what makes the Pre Rolas sound so much better than post Rola Celestions, apart from the aging? Is it the cone material and construction? Is it the voice coil? Or something else? Can a reconed Pre Rola ever sound as good as the original ? Finally, who manufactures your speakers and what makes them better than
the speakers made by the companies that they are designed to emulate?

Scumback Speakers
02-13-2006, 10:44 PM
SouthBay, what makes the Pre Rolas sound so much better than post Rola Celestions, apart from the aging? Is it the cone material and construction? Is it the voice coil? Or something else? Can a reconed Pre Rola ever sound as good as the original ? Finally, who manufactures your speakers and what makes them better than
the speakers made by the companies that they are designed to emulate?
You can read all about it at my site, either at the speaker page, or the History page. I'd write more, but I wrote a rather detailed reply and then my browser crashed, so while that's happening I'll make this short, so it doesn't happen again. Click the speaker sale link at the bottom, that will take you to my site with a detailed explanation for most of what you're asking.

Feel free to email me offline for anything I've missed, OK? Thanks for your interest.

LarryN
02-14-2006, 01:54 PM
Does anyone sell an exact replacement dustcap for the Greenback?

LarryN
02-14-2006, 02:02 PM
SouthBay, what makes the Pre Rolas sound so much better than post Rola Celestions, apart from the aging? Is it the cone material and construction? Is it the voice coil? Or something else? Can a reconed Pre Rola ever sound as good as the original ? Finally, who manufactures your speakers and what makes them better than
the speakers made by the companies that they are designed to emulate?
I've purchased over 25 Celestions from ebay, all UK era, and have concluded that it's the cone paper. The later cones are darker colored, thicker(?) and more stiff which seems to make the tone harsher. That's my .02.

swknuck
02-19-2006, 07:16 PM
Hello. A friend of mine is offering a pre-rola greenback 20watt without any date-codes. Does anybody know what year they stoped making 20watt model? And what should I pay for it? It is in good condition.

Cheers

Scumback Speakers
02-19-2006, 07:40 PM
Hello. A friend of mine is offering a pre-rola greenback 20watt without any date-codes. Does anybody know what year they stoped making 20watt model? And what should I pay for it? It is in good condition.

Cheers
If it's a 20 watter without date codes on the frame, then they should be on the cork gasket on the front. Check the cone #'s to see if they say XX 102 003, you'll find them under the frame on the cone itself, usually under the speaker wire terminal block (which should be a black fiber board with the hooks to attach your speaker wires). Pics of this are back on page 1 if you'd like a pic to see what you're looking for.

Good luck. If it's an original 20 watter, all straight, no issues, you could pay anywhere from 200-350 depending on condition from eBay or more from a reputable seller/vintage shop, etc.. I'm not certain when the 20 watter you refer to was discontinued, but if it's a G12M T1221 20 watter, I think 68 was the last year (at least I have two from 68, two from 67). Never saw any past 68, although others may have.

swknuck
02-19-2006, 08:06 PM
Thank you very much for your quick answer and for all the great information that you have written previosly.
I havent seen the speaker yet but he wrote in an e-mail that:
The code on the cone is 102 003 and the sticker say 20W-15ohm-75hz Celestion LTD - Thames Ditton Surrey.

Thanks a lot

LarryN
02-25-2006, 10:31 PM
I just bought a recone kit for my greenback from ebay. It has Celestion tape on the package and is marked T1221R. The cone is stamped "6402", although the "02" is a bit uncertain. Southbay, do you know the origin of this?

Scumback Speakers
02-26-2006, 03:25 AM
I just bought a recone kit for my greenback from ebay. It has Celestion tape on the package and is marked T1221R. The cone is stamped "6402", although the "02" is a bit uncertain. Southbay, do you know the origin of this?
The recone kit you got is consistent with a kit Celestion used in the early to mid 90's (from what I've seen). The cone itself is one that was stock in the speakers of the Bluesbreaker reissue combos from that time. It's a fine cone if you break it in well. I can't tell you how long that is, I've never gotten one new, and this recone kit was discontinued awhile back. I have a few in G12M and G12H frames, and IMO, it's the best one Celestion made, short of an original Pulsonic factory cone kit.

Hope that helps... Jim

LarryN
02-26-2006, 06:11 AM
Thanks Jim. It is very helpful. I was a little worried it might be a present day non-UK something. The paper looks good to my limited perception. It's about the same thickness, texture and color as my old one, minus a few thousand miles of use and age. It'll be great to get this speaker back up and running. It's good to see you have reconing available, also.

muziekkamer
10-24-2006, 03:53 PM
I was trying te get some infos about dating my G12m's and found on my way this great thread!
I just bought a Kustom 4X12 with Blackbacks Rola celestion in it and would like to know how old this guys are.
They are : G12M, 25 watts, 8 ohms, 75hz made in Ipswich.
Code on it says: fort two of them CK9(should be March '77 i guess?), T2114, paper cone 1777
Others two: CK11, T2114, paper cone 1777.
I think i'm pretty right when i say 9th and 11th March 1977 but i can't find anything about this "T" and paper codes!!!
Can somebody please help me out there?

Gr. from Amsterdam!

Eric

Scumback Speakers
10-25-2006, 06:40 AM
Try Dr. Decibel at Celestion for that T2114 code. Sounds like from the label that it's a later model G12M, though. drdecibel@celestion.com

muziekkamer
10-25-2006, 04:14 PM
Ok, thank you, i'm gonna try it by the Dr...
I will let you know(if you care haha!)

adelphi710
10-26-2006, 04:24 PM
do they make a g12h15?

Scumback Speakers
10-26-2006, 08:47 PM
do they make a g12h15?
Negative. I've had some requests for a really low power H75...with a 15 watt voice coil.

You'd have to be really careful with it, though. With that type of low power handling, I would imagine a good OD pedal and a single EL 84 or 6V6 amp might make it squeal in a bad way, or just fry it.

murkat
01-08-2007, 08:24 PM
Hey Jim... score alert...... 1976 straight 4x12 bass cab.
T1511's
GJ29 (x2), GJ30 (x2)

cone stamp~ 0444


;)

Scumback Speakers
01-08-2007, 09:33 PM
Hey Jim... score alert...... 1976 straight 4x12 bass cab.
T1511's
GJ29 (x2), GJ30 (x2)

cone stamp~ 0444


;)

Pics?

murkat
01-08-2007, 09:47 PM
pics tommorrow. Cab is thrashed but in okay condition, logo is intact! as well the very darkened stained grill weve cloth.... speakers are missing the covers, harness, cliff jack, serial #, model plate all there. no casters thou, I'll stop at the caster shop and see if they have any tha will match, thread up :)

murkat
01-08-2007, 10:01 PM
naah, too excited.... here ya go ;)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/murkat/cab002-1.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/murkat/cab001-1.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/murkat/cab003-1.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/murkat/cab004-1.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/murkat/cab007.jpg

Scumback Speakers
01-09-2007, 04:51 PM
A quite good score if the speakers are all solid and original, especially for a cab with piping, too :AOK

murkat
01-09-2007, 05:14 PM
speakers~ solid and original, to bad less the caps thou... but not hinder tone ;) . wire harness leads need to be resolder'd on a driver or two, no problem. Need to score on some casters thou. All is good. but the coin price paid is to dye 4 :)

Scumback Speakers
01-09-2007, 05:45 PM
I just won a 1960 Slant JCM 800 cab with original speakers on eBay. The seller didn't want to ship it, local pickup only. I thought the winning bid of $152.50 was a fair deal, too. :D Maybe even to die for...:roll

murkat
01-09-2007, 06:01 PM
I just won a 1960 Slant JCM 800 cab with original speakers on eBay. The seller didn't want to ship it, local pickup only. I thought the winning bid of $152.50 was a fair deal, too. :D Maybe even to die for...:roll

Damn! now thats a deal!!!!

Scumback Speakers
01-09-2007, 11:28 PM
You get tired of looking for them, believe me. But every once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut. It's going to need to be retolexed, and I'll probably do the whole route to it, but still, I couldn't have a 4x12 made for anywhere near that, so it's hard to bitch about recovering it...and the speakers are a bonus...(depending on what they are & how they sound that is...)

bonker
01-16-2007, 06:14 PM
Hi!

I just found that G12H30 in a used MESA(???)-Cabinet (with rest vintage 30s) and dont know what to think about it:

The T-number and date code are nearly not readable anymore, but the date code seems to say 24KA (on the pictures its harder to guess...)

Here some pics:http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/celestion009.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/celestion001.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/celestion012.jpg

My questions: How old is this speaker? What is it worth ( its working perfectly)?

Thank you, Ren

Scumback Speakers
01-16-2007, 07:31 PM
24KA would translate to October 24th, 1968. The speaker is a Pre Rola Celestion G12H30 with the 102 003 75hz bass response cone. It's worth about $400-450 by itself, if there are no issues.

bonker
01-17-2007, 04:31 AM
24KA would translate to October 24th, 1968. The speaker is a Pre Rola Celestion G12H30 with the 102 003 75hz bass response cone. It's worth about $400-450 by itself, if there are no issues.

Wow! But why is the date code 24KA and not KA24? I searched the net but didnt found a G12H30 that had the code THAT way.....

Greets

Scumback Speakers
01-17-2007, 05:04 AM
Celestion flip flopped them by accident a lot. Here's a date code chart link. http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html

As it states on that link:

The date codes from 1963 to 1967 are written in the form:
Day, Month, Year.

For example: 19MK = 19th December 1965

The date codes from 1968 to 1991 are written in the form:
Month, Year, Day.

For example: KH7 = 7th October 1975

I think because the employees were used to the pre 68 numbering scheme that they occasionally (or accidentally) fell back into it, and reversed them. I've seen them stamped both ways, all the way up till 72.

humbucking
01-17-2007, 06:09 AM
Hey Jim, this is the first time I have looked at this thread & noticed the 3rd speaker down on the very first post(the first 30 watter), has a reproduction sticker on it. I read about 3 pages of posts & didnt see anyone catch it. but i havent read all the posts in this thread. :messedup I have seen a bunch os these lately! My friend who owns a guitar shop, took delivery of 4 quads of "pre-rola" greenbacks, only to find 3/4 of them had these stickers on the back & some even had their grey tabs painted black or replaced all together with black ones!(you could tell by the rivets being monkey'd with!)

grinder965
01-17-2007, 08:40 AM
hb,

How can you tell it's a repro sticker?

humbucking
01-17-2007, 09:08 AM
hb,

How can you tell it's a repro sticker?

the font & angle of the letters. also if you have one in hand to compare with the real deal, the way it is printed on is aparent. i am in the office right now, but when i get home I will tell you which one had raised printing(I am pretty sure its the fake lables?)

Scumback Speakers
01-17-2007, 10:08 AM
Hey Jim, this is the first time I have looked at this thread & noticed the 3rd speaker down on the very first post(the first 30 watter), has a reproduction sticker on it. I read about 3 pages of posts & didnt see anyone catch it. but i havent read all the posts in this thread. :messedup I have seen a bunch os these lately! My friend who owns a guitar shop, took delivery of 4 quads of "pre-rola" greenbacks, only to find 3/4 of them had these stickers on the back & some even had their grey tabs painted black or replaced all together with black ones!(you could tell by the rivets being monkey'd with!)
Actually I noted it in a later post. Whoever sold it to me put that sticker on there. I have since bought the repro labels in all versions to have as reference. The Pre Rola ones have a different typeface/font and are slightly angled/italic in look.

The later Rola Celestion repro labels are pretty much dead on, except for the G12M 30 watt designation that were put on some! G12M's only came in 20 & 25 watt models (at least noted on real Celestion stickers).

I've seen lots of people try stuff on selling speakers. They usually decline selling to me after I tell them I have about 40 originals to compare to theirs so if it's not real, they'll be refunding all of my money and paying the shipping back.

Music Ground (UK dealer) was one of those who declined to sell me any of theirs, by the way.

grinder965
01-17-2007, 11:02 AM
Hi Jim,

Just e-mailed a photo of a matched quad of pre-rolas greenbacks that I recently acquired. Would you please take a look and let me know if they are original or repro labels. Note....one label is crooked and was not centered on the speakers like the others....thanks....Mike

humbucking
01-17-2007, 11:14 AM
Actually I noted it in a later post. Whoever sold it to me put that sticker on there. I have since bought the repro labels in all versions to have as reference. The Pre Rola ones have a different typeface/font and are slightly angled/italic in look.

The later Rola Celestion repro labels are pretty much dead on, except for the G12M 30 watt designation that were put on some! G12M's only came in 20 & 25 watt models (at least noted on real Celestion stickers).

I've seen lots of people try stuff on selling speakers. They usually decline selling to me after I tell them I have about 40 originals to compare to theirs so if it's not real, they'll be refunding all of my money and paying the shipping back.

Music Ground (UK dealer) was one of those who declined to sell me any of theirs, by the way.

I have plenty of MG stories! thankfully I have never bought from them, but I have seen plenty of stuff come into my friend's shop that was fugazi!

Scumback Speakers
01-23-2007, 07:44 PM
I have plenty of MG stories! thankfully I have never bought from them, but I have seen plenty of stuff come into my friend's shop that was fugazi!
I've (luckily) only had to live vicariously through other people's issues, although I had to write a summary of what was wrong with one TGP member's speakers he got from them for his credit card company.

He got a large refund out of the deal, by the way, so he was happy he emailed me. I was glad I could help him.

I urge anyone who is looking at old Greenbacks to buy for big bucks to contact me first if you have any questions. I've got lots of pics, and stuff to share if this thread isn't enough.

grinder965
01-24-2007, 01:36 AM
Jim,

Your a real credit to the GP, its members and guitar players in general. Always willing to share your knowledge and assist others when you can with no hidden agendas or ulterior motives......Mike

Scumback Speakers
01-24-2007, 08:54 AM
Jim,

Your a real credit to the GP, its members and guitar players in general. Always willing to share your knowledge and assist others when you can with no hidden agendas or ulterior motives......Mike

Thanks very much, but I do have an ulterior motive, Mike. I was ripped off more than once by folks in the purchases of all of my old Celestions (a rather expensive lesson in some cases), so I just don't want it to happen to anyone else.

dewman
01-31-2007, 11:09 PM
Jim- One last set of questions- I'm thinking of buying a friends nice looking pair of G12H T1281 EK10 blackbacks that I am thinking of populating a 2x12 with. He said he couldn't make out the cone code, he's probably being slack and doesnt want to dig them out again. I think in this thread you dated them, but what I wanted to know is if they are 444 cones versus pulsonics, what is the tone difference I should expect? Are these worth $150 a piece if they are the 444 cones? Which cones would be best to replicate an 'original' G12H such as found in the old bass 4x12 cabs (a la Hendrix)? I just don't want to be taken to the bank if these speakers suck and are late 70s/early 80s hair metal fodder (excess highs). Mucho gracias in advance!

gitman
03-07-2007, 06:22 PM
wow, long read and so much inside info ! what a great place this is ....

now to my issue : i found a somewhat tattered basketweave cab with a quad of original greenbacks ( only one actually still has it's green plastic cap, missing label ) and i am considering selling the speakers and keeping the cab, to be reloaded with newer speakers. the chassis codes read
T 1281 , date codes read LB4V - cone codes read 42 102 014, on all 4 speakers. according to the supplied date-code lists they were made in november of 1969, if i'm not mistaken. they work beautifully, no scratching , no rips or tears. before putting the set on ebay i would want a realistic estimate on their value on the US market - since i live in europe it's a bit difficult to investigate and shipping them will be easy and relatively cheap compared to shipping a loaded cab ...
any advice is much appreciated !

Scumback Speakers
03-07-2007, 06:55 PM
Depending on condition, those T1281's with 014 cones will bring $1400-2000 per quad. Take detailed pics, make sure you test them for voice coil rub, and play them to make sure there are no vibrational noises under a load, and you're good to go.

gitman
03-07-2007, 07:19 PM
that was fast, thanks ! i will scrutinize them, most definitely !

rockstrongo
03-08-2007, 03:41 PM
What about this speaker? Its a Rola Celestion with a November of '71 date code, but they have black solder tabs, which I thought were discontinued at that point.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/rockstrongo/Old%20Marshall%20Cabinet%20Pics/SSPX0127.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/rockstrongo/SSPX0121.jpg

Scumback Speakers
03-08-2007, 03:55 PM
Transition label that's part Pre Rola, part Rola Celestion. I've got pics of that in the beginning of the thread @ post # 22. Here's a pic of it.

http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/t1221trans.jpg

This label was used for a short time between 1971 and 1972 as near as I can tell. Earliest ones I have were from April 71, the latest from July 72.

Basically the same as a Pre Rola Celestion, just with a different label. The black speaker tab, 102 003, 102 /3 and 3 cones were all used in this timeframe.

You've got a valuable quad if the cones are original.

rockstrongo
03-08-2007, 04:23 PM
Transition label that's part Pre Rola, part Rola Celestion. I've got pics of that in the beginning of the thread @ post # 22. Here's a pic of it.

http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/t1221trans.jpg

This label was used for a short time between 1971 and 1972 as near as I can tell. Earliest ones I have were from April 71, the latest from July 72.

Basically the same as a Pre Rola Celestion, just with a different label. The black speaker tab, 102 003, 102 /3 and 3 cones were all used in this timeframe.

You've got a valuable quad if the cones are original.


The cones are original, as the speaker codes are 102 3, printed on the cones underneath the black tabs. Thanks!

Scumback Speakers
03-08-2007, 10:42 PM
The cones are original, as the speaker codes are 102 3, printed on the cones underneath the black tabs. Thanks!

You're welcome. Killer score you made, by the way (lucky bastid!)... :cool:

RS120
03-22-2007, 10:09 PM
I have a Marshall tall red cabinet that I bought used in the mid 70s that I am trying to find out info on. It still looks brand new and sounds amazing. It has 4 12" Celestions with the green magnet cover, the codes on the speaker frame are T1511 and the date code is 24KA. Acording to the Celestion date guide these speakers were made in Nov 24, 1956. I don't think that's right (they look like they were made yesterday). Any help would be appreciated. I'll try to insert some pictures here.
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-spkr1.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-spkr2.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-back-sm.jpg

bonker
04-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Ive got 4 of these speakers in an old Sound City cabinet. They have the T1534 number, an "insp." stamp, a weird paper number "WF-1009" and the old thames ditton label, but NO findable date code!!!
Whats up with that speakers and how much are they worth?
Thanks for helping,

ren

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/g12h1.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/g12h2.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/g12h3.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/g12h4.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/renelipps/g12h5.jpg

z3
04-07-2007, 06:58 PM
great thread. TGP is very cool. i just found out more about the greenbacks in 1/2 and hour that what i would have had i searched the net for two hours.
kudos.
are Ur G15M 55 Hz 'clones' out yet after two years?

*edit* yes, i see that they are.
bastid!

Scumback Speakers
04-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I have a Marshall tall red cabinet that I bought used in the mid 70s that I am trying to find out info on. It still looks brand new and sounds amazing. It has 4 12" Celestions with the green magnet cover, the codes on the speaker frame are T1511 and the date code is 24KA. Acording to the Celestion date guide these speakers were made in Nov 24, 1956. I don't think that's right (they look like they were made yesterday). Any help would be appreciated. I'll try to insert some pictures here.


24KA date code translates to September 24, 1968. Your speakers are the 55hz bass cone from Pulsonic, which should have 102 014 in white on the cones underneath the black speaker tab.

Scumback Speakers
04-07-2007, 07:06 PM
great thread. TGP is very cool. i just found out more about the greenbacks in 1/2 and hour that what i would have had i searched the net for two hours.
kudos.
are Ur G15M 55 Hz 'clones' out yet after two years?

Thanks. Yes, the M55's have been available for almost two years now. You can find them on my site under the Speakers tab. http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/m_series.html

z3
04-07-2007, 07:25 PM
Thanks. Yes, the M55's have been available for almost two years now. You can find them on my site under the Speakers tab. http://www.southbayampworks.com/speakers.html

yup. i just saw that.
i have a 35th anniversary, white levant, metal handle, full ply, period correct greenback equipped marshall cab. oddly enough it's a pretty nice sounding cab. i also have one of greg germino's celestion heritage G12M 4-12 cabs that is also very nice, but maybe a bit nicer that the stock driver equipped marshall cab. certainly a bit different. also had a chance to play a basket weave greenback equipped cab recently that was very warm and had lovely 'push'.

so, removing Ur gear pimp hat for a second...
would i be correct that a set of Ur 55 Hz greenback clones would be an 'improvement' to the stock greenbacks in the 35th anniversary marshall cab? again, i like the cab the way it is, but that basketweave cab i played really had me thinking about better drivers. a brief search at TGP led me here.
imagine that...

RS120
04-07-2007, 09:57 PM
24KA date code translates to September 24, 1968. Your speakers are the 55hz bass cone from Pulsonic, which should have 102 014 in white on the cones underneath the black speaker tab.
Thanks a ton for your help. Any idea as to the value of the cabinet that they are in? Its totally original. I've never seen another cabinet like this in person. Its looks like an 8 x 10 but with 4 x 12's in it.. The cab still looks like new (like the day I bought it back in the 70's, and it was used then). I still have the original cover it came with. Here are some more pics (the head is a 50w MkII Lead made in 1975 that I bought in 1976). I'll take the back off again and check the code on the speaker cones.
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-sn.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-front.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-logo.jpg

Scumback Speakers
04-07-2007, 10:23 PM
yup. i just saw that.
so, removing Ur gear pimp hat for a second...
would i be correct that a set of Ur 55 Hz greenback clones would be an 'improvement' to the stock greenbacks in the 35th anniversary marshall cab? again, i like the cab the way it is, but that basketweave cab i played really had me thinking about better drivers. a brief search at TGP led me here.
imagine that...
Yep. But I think all 55's in a cab are pretty dark. I usually mix two 55's with two 75's so it isn't quite so heavy sounding. Ideally, sending me your rig specs, and answering my 7 question speaker recommendation list would be the best way to buy Scumbacks. Here's the link to it: http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/recommend.html

Scumback Speakers
04-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Thanks a ton for your help. Any idea as to the value of the cabinet that they are in? Its totally original. I've never seen another cabinet like this in person. Its looks like an 8 x 10 but with 4 x 12's in it.. The cab still looks like new (like the day I bought it back in the 70's, and it was used then). I still have the original cover it came with. Here are some more pics (the head is a 50w MkII Lead made in 1975 that I bought in 1976). I'll take the back off again and check the code on the speaker cones.
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-sn.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-front.jpg
http://www.broadscopemedia.com/pics/mi/cab-logo.jpg

Need some more pics to help with that. It looks like an 8x10 cab with a different baffle board, fitted for 4 12's, though, from what you're describing. Better to do this offline, though. Shoot me an email, OK? Thanks...oh, and you're welcome for the help. :D

stratlover
07-01-2007, 11:49 PM
i just posted a thread then found this
can anyone help me identify these speakers ive got a generic 4x12 cab with celestions of which i am told 2 are greenbacks can anyone help me identify these speakers and tell me if their any good. the two that i was told are greenbacks have no label but here are the codes.

chassis:t1221

date:cc23x?

cone 1777

also there are 2 celestions with a label which read

G12-30 15 ohms rola celestion LTD ditton works foxhall rd ipswich suffolk england

codes

chassis:t3319

date BN5

cone 2712

any help would be excellent are they any good? can post pics if needed

Free
07-02-2007, 12:26 AM
Nice job on this thread, Jim! Absolutely great info...

-Mike

Scumback Speakers
07-02-2007, 10:06 AM
i just posted a thread then found this
can anyone help me identify these speakers ive got a generic 4x12 cab with celestions of which i am told 2 are greenbacks can anyone help me identify these speakers and tell me if their any good. the two that i was told are greenbacks have no label but here are the codes.

chassis:t1221

date:cc23x?

cone 1777

also there are 2 celestions with a label which read

G12-30 15 ohms rola celestion LTD ditton works foxhall rd ipswich suffolk england

codes

chassis:t3319

date BN5

cone 2712

any help would be excellent are they any good? can post pics if needed
The T1221 speakers are March 23, 1970 Greenback G12M's with a 75 hz bass response lead cone (1777 is the later cone type, likely a recone). This speaker should have come with a 102 003 Pulsonic cone originally, but yours are the later Kurt Mueller 1777 cones.

The G12-30 (not G12H30, right?) would be a later model Celestion I'm not familiar with, but from what I've seen online, it has a smaller magent, should be less efficient/loud, and the cone is a later type used in the 80's, if I'm not mistaken (going from memory on that one).

Scumback Speakers
07-02-2007, 10:08 AM
Nice job on this thread, Jim! Absolutely great info...

-Mike

Glad you liked it, and could glean some info from it.

stratlover
07-03-2007, 01:53 AM
The T1221 speakers are March 23, 1970 Greenback G12M's with a 75 hz bass response lead cone (1777 is the later cone type, likely a recone). This speaker should have come with a 102 003 Pulsonic cone originally, but yours are the later Kurt Mueller 1777 cones.

The G12-30 (not G12H30, right?) would be a later model Celestion I'm not familiar with, but from what I've seen online, it has a smaller magent, should be less efficient/loud, and the cone is a later type used in the 80's, if I'm not mistaken (going from memory on that one). __________________thanks for the info one last question are these considered good sounding speakers even with the 1777 recone. i was going to make a 2x12 box is it worth it and an estimate on what thier worth ok that was 3 questions :) thanks for the quick reply

Scumback Speakers
07-03-2007, 10:05 AM
thanks for the info one last question are these considered good sounding speakers even with the 1777 recone. i was going to make a 2x12 box is it worth it and an estimate on what thier worth ok that was 3 questions :) thanks for the quick reply

RE: the 1777 cone. It depends when the speaker was reconed. The 1777 cone is the later model Kurt Mueller 75 hz lead cone. It is not as collectible, nor has the "holy grail" tone that the Pulsonic 102 003 cone provided when that speaker was originally made in 1970.

That said, it depends on what timeframe it was reconed, too. The 1777 cone, with variations to it's treatment, is still used in the Alnico Blue, G12M reissue, G12H30 Anniversary, G12-65 Heritage, and probably some others as well. They were also used in the mid to late 70's BlackBacks which were not considered to be Celestions's best efforts, so it all depends on what you like for your tone needs.

Their value with the 1777 cone is far short of the original Pulsonic cone. The most these would sell for is probably around $150-200 IF they were an old recone from the 70's. If they had the Pulsonic cones (and were in good shape with no issues) you could expect them to be worth $300-500 each, which is quite a difference in value (and tone).

If you can send me pics I can make an estimate of when they were reconed, but you'll need to provide front and back pics of the cone, around the dust cap, & pics of the cone # on the backside.

I wouldn't use more than a JTM 45/clone (33-35 watts clean, around 45-50 dimed) with these speakers. A healthy 50 watt will put out 60 watts clean and 85-95 dimed and would damage the speakers if used for a length of time, overheating the voice coils, which would warp them, and produce cone cry, voice coil rub or any number of other issues.

Benji2203
07-30-2007, 04:17 PM
What can someone tell me about these greenback's I have. I believe they're from April of '71. Are these the transitional Rolas? How much might they be worth now? Any info would be great.http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1353/oldgreenbackga8.jpg

Thanks!

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1353/oldgreenbackga8.jpg%22

Scumback Speakers
07-31-2007, 09:01 AM
Assuming they have the original cones, 102 003 or 102/3, have no issues (voice coil rub, vibrations, etc) they should be worth around $250-350 each.

If they've been reconed with 1777 cones, then figure $100-150 depending on condition and the age of the 1777 recones, and who installed them.

BurnoutBright
08-11-2007, 10:49 PM
Hi Jim,

Can you help authenticate these celestion greenback? The seller claims they are 1972 Celestion Greenback. I followed the thread here, and the date code does not have the day number, which is making me suspicious. Can you tell if these are originals and would you know how much they are worth? Thanks for any help.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/jonnyblast/CelestionSpeaker.jpg

Here is the date and model number

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/jonnyblast/CelestionSpeakerDateCode.jpg

Scumback Speakers
08-12-2007, 02:22 PM
Looks like EF xx for a date code which would be May of 73. As for the speakers, you'd need pics of the cone #'s and the front of the cones for me to attempt to authenticate them.

Here's what could be in there...
102 014 code 55hz bass response known as bass cones

http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/014-4cone2.jpg
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-014code2.jpg

102/14 code, same as above, just a shorter code # version:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-14code.jpg (http://sscumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/102-14code.jpg)

4 code, same as above, but the last Pulsonic 55hz cone # version for the bass cone:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/4code.jpg

If they've been reconed to the proper specs, you'll see these:
http://scumbackspeakers.com/greenbacks/444code.jpg

Good luck, email me some pics.

frankpaush
08-29-2007, 10:39 AM
## Marshall 1960B serial A 11145 (1970)
## speakers:
## 4x Celestion greenbacks, G 12 M. 25watt, 16ohm, bass resonance: 75 c/s
## lower left: JC 15 R T1511, Insp. 79 , conecode 17 102 014
## upper left: GC 1 K T1511, Insp. 58 R.G.
## upper right: O 1 L T1221, Insp. 44
## lower right: GC 1 R T1511, Insp. ??

two questions:

what does the letter following the day mean?
what kind of code is that one found on the T1221 ??

would be nice to get some statements.

Scumback Speakers
09-06-2007, 06:21 PM
What answers I can provide are in bold.
## Marshall 1960B serial A 11145 (1970)
## speakers:
## 4x Celestion greenbacks, G 12 M. 25watt, 16ohm, bass resonance: 75 c/s
## lower left: JC 15 R T1511, Insp. 79 , conecode 17 102 014 November 15, 1970 manufacture date, 55hz Pulsonic "bass" cone
## upper left: GC 1 K T1511, Insp. 58 R.G. August 1, 1970
## upper right: O 1 L T1221, Insp. 44 Have to see a picture of this one.
## lower right: GC 1 R T1511, Insp. ?? August 1, 1970

two questions:

what does the letter following the day mean?
There's much speculation on those, I've never had a concise answer. Dr. Decibel told me it could be a batch code, or specific run marking (told to me 8 years ago) for a client's order.
what kind of code is that one found on the T1221 ??
The frame inspector's # of the speaker at Celestion, according to Dr. D.
would be nice to get some statements.

You should email me with any further questions since I'll need pics and to ask you some questions to help you out further.

dewman
09-06-2007, 06:45 PM
This should be a permanetly archived thread!

pit_s_xroad
09-08-2007, 02:06 PM
Hi...

very interested I have cruised this thread afterwards... I checked the two Greenbacks of my AC30 and found these codes...

The first one says Model T1871 and the code is AL19... am I right that it was made January 19th 1978...?

http://www.pit-schmidt.de/uploads/IM008137_small.jpg



the second one shows the same model-no.... but the code is a bit harder to identify on the first letter... but in person close it looks like something like an "8"... but since numbers weren't used at the beginning of the other one I assume it's a "B"... so it would BL9... this would stand for February 9th 1978, wouldn't it?

http://www.pit-schmidt.de/uploads/IM008136_small.jpg


would be lovely if one of the experts just could confirm whether I did that right...

What do you think when was the AC30 built itself when the speakers are from 1978... 1979 probably?

Thanks so much in advance,
Greetings

PIT...

Scumback Speakers
09-10-2007, 04:26 AM
pit_s_xroad, you dated them correctly.

pit_s_xroad
09-10-2007, 06:54 AM
thanks... :)

BobbyFudge
09-12-2007, 12:00 PM
Just found this thread...Can you help me ID these:

T2270, small red sticker in center, 8ohm.

Thanks

Scumback Speakers
09-12-2007, 12:11 PM
Just found this thread...Can you help me ID these:

T2270, small red sticker in center, 8ohm.

Thanks

Sorry, never heard of them. Better email drdecibel@celestion.com and send him some pics of the cone front, cone code #'s (under the frame/speaker tabs) from the back of the cone, and a pic of the magnet cover/label area.

BobbyFudge
09-12-2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the quick response!I'll email him.

Cheers.

Scumback Speakers
09-12-2007, 01:27 PM
Hey everyone! While I don't mind helping you identify what you've got for old Celestions, please make it easier on me by providing the following pics or info when you ask me, OK? Here's what I need... :

1) Picture or description of the cone code on the back of the speaker, usually located here:
http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/1023conecode.jpg

2) Txxxx and date code info:
http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/3code.jpg

3) The back label and front of the cone, too, as sometimes the date code is on the cork gasket if it's a pre 1968 model.

http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/102-3cone.jpg

http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/rola55label.jpg

Then I can usually tell you what you need to know in one post, instead of multiples and we won't burn up extra bandwidth on the TGP's server. Thanks!

BobbyFudge
09-13-2007, 10:30 AM
Here's the e-mail response from DrDecibel:

According to our records T2770 is a G10M like the classic G12M Greenback
but a 10" version without the green magnet cover. It was issued in
October 1977 and date code LK23 suggests yours were made on the 23rd
November, 1977 so it's likely yours are from the first production run.
Like its 12" version this should have a power handling of 25W.
Regards
The Doctor

Family Guy
09-14-2007, 09:36 AM
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1509.jpg

This is my cab that I've been renovating, but I'm starting to find a stack too loud so alas she must go. This isn't an underhand sale by the way, admins!
I just guess these speakers may be rare, and I really don't want to get ripped off. So please could you give me an idea how much the cab with speakers may be worth.
Thanks

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1502.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1503.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1507.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1506.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1505.jpg

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd319/jimandjana/14-09-07_1504.jpg

Scumback Speakers
09-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Family Guy...I'll need the cone #'s on the speakers to be specific on a value.

But generally an untolexed cab is worth about $3-500 of that era. The metal handles make up half of it's worth. If it were professionally tolexed/restored, you could sell it for $700-1000, unloaded.

The speakers you have are the G12M T1511 55 hz bass cone models that handle 25 watts. They are not the more desirable T1221 75 hz lead cones, although they're still valued by many.

Realistically, figure $1000-1200 for that quad of T1511 speakers. In it's present shape, based on what I see of it, you could probably sell that cab for around $1500-1800 including the speakers.

If the grill cloth is painted (which I'm not sure from your pics), that will lower the value by another 30-40% off the amounts I mentioned above.

Family Guy
09-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Hi there
The one cone I can read says 21? 102 014
The grill cloth I replaced as it was covered with thick black paint.

Scumback Speakers
09-14-2007, 01:56 PM
Hi there
The one cone I can read says 21? 102 014
The grill cloth I replaced as it was covered with thick black paint.
Those are the right era cones, and as long as they have no issues (voice coil rub, vibration, cone cry, etc.) they're worth what I wrote about them. The replaced cloth will be an issue to a collector, so you'll lose some value on that. In it's present condition, without you doing anything more to it, figure around $14-1700 for the cab with the speakers.

LarryN
09-21-2007, 05:04 PM
Scumback Jim -This is slightly off topic, but could you tell me what a 53H1117 cone is? Thanks in advance if you can help. Having asked that, as of yesterday, I learned how to recone by having a pro friend help me recone my April 1972 (DE) Greenback. I also have an original cone August 1968 (HA), so I now have a pair! I'm looking forward to trying them with my Two-Rock/Fender. Thank you for advising me on the kit I got from ebay. It has what looks like"6402" stamped on the cone. The stamp is a little obscured. At some point I want to try Scumbacks. Among Two Rock owners, they seem to be highly respected. And we are a picky lot!

Scumback Speakers
09-21-2007, 06:48 PM
Scumback Jim -This is slightly off topic, but could you tell me what a 53H1117 cone is? Thanks in advance if you can help. Having asked that, as of yesterday, I learned how to recone by having a pro friend help me recone my April 1972 (DE) Greenback. I also have an original cone August 1968 (HA), so I now have a pair! I'm looking forward to trying them with my Two-Rock/Fender. Thank you for advising me on the kit I got from ebay. It has what looks like"6402" stamped on the cone. The stamp is a little obscured. At some point I want to try Scumbacks. Among Two Rock owners, they seem to be highly respected. And we are a picky lot!
The 53H1117 cone you refer to is probably the 53H1777 cone with a smeared 7. This cone has been used in the Cele Blue, G12H30 Anniversary and G12M Reissue for many years. I've seen them with the 53H in front of the 1777 or just the 1777 by itself.

The 6402 cone is the Kurt-Mueller attempt to recreate the Pulsonic 102 003 cone without the wear on the cone stamping tool. They were short lived, somewhere in the late 80's to early 90's before being discontinued, although recone kits are floating around to buy.

LarryN
09-21-2007, 07:05 PM
Thank you Jim. As usual, you're experience shows, in being able to identify the unusual without a breaking a sweat! We're very lucky to have you as a resource.

Scumback Speakers
09-21-2007, 09:42 PM
You're making me blush now.

LarryN
09-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Sorry, Jim. I'll roll back the compliments a little. If you'd be so kind, I have one more question. I purchased eight G12-65 Rola-Celestions, all 1777 cones. Five of them have smaller magnets than the other three. Is there anything you could say about the different sizes and their effect?

Scumback Speakers
09-23-2007, 05:49 AM
Sorry, Jim. I'll roll back the compliments a little. If you'd be so kind, I have one more question. I purchased eight G12-65 Rola-Celestions, all 1777 cones. Five of them have smaller magnets than the other three. Is there anything you could say about the different sizes and their effect?
Regarding the G12-65's...I'll need the Txxxx and date code #'s, plus measurements of the magnet (width, depth). Any pics you can provide would help as well. Email them to me.

They should all have the same size magnet, though, unless you bought new Heritage models and old ones, too. But even then I doubt Celestion would change the magnet size.

Mystery abounds. :cool:

LarryN
10-07-2007, 08:14 PM
I'm back! Family colds, etc. I tried to download some pics, but I don't see any controls for that. I tried to do it but my computer went a little bonkers. Any tips? Here are a sampling of the speaker specs - small magnet G12-65: T3053 GM12, 5 3/16" diam. magnet; large magnet G12-65: T3054 LN10, 5 11/16" magnet. The T3053 on the small magnet model may be the key. I have had five small magnet models and four large; one 15 ohm small, four 8 0hm small and four 15 ohm large. This is not a mis-perception in size. Weird, huh?

All the magnets are 17mm thick. (easier to measure metric)

Scumback Speakers
10-08-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm back! Family colds, etc. I tried to download some pics, but I don't see any controls for that. I tried to do it but my computer went a little bonkers. Any tips? Here are a sampling of the speaker specs - small magnet G12-65: T3053 GM12, 5 3/16" diam. magnet; large magnet G12-65: T3054 LN10, 5 11/16" magnet. The T3053 on the small magnet model may be the key. I have had five small magnet models and four large; one 15 ohm small, four 8 0hm small and four 15 ohm large. This is not a mis-perception in size. Weird, huh?

All the magnets are 17mm thick. (easier to measure metric)

Chances are good that either the magnet was swapped with a larger one, or that the spec changed on the speaker itself during production. According to a former Celestion speaker designer, he counted 40 different versions of the G12-65 in two years.

You need to email the dimensions of the magnet, along with the Txxxx (3053, 3054, etc.) along with the alphanumeric date code (it's the four digit code next to the Txxxx) to: drdecibel@celestion.com

He may be able to give you some more info that I don't have.

LarryN
10-08-2007, 01:38 PM
Thanks Jim for looking at my oddities. 40 versions in two years! They must have been real interested in that speaker, but only for a short time. I wonder what happened in the guitar world to change that. I sure like them. They have a great balance of all qualities. My most satisfying solo to date was on a slower blues with a Two Rock and a pair of 15 ohm G12-65's. I'm still highly interested in your speakers, though. I will probably gather all the info and send it to Dr. Decibel. Thanks for the tip!

Echoes
10-09-2007, 01:51 PM
I did swipe some pics for this thread, and here they are:
Celestion "transition" label, only made for a few months in 1971 (as far as I know, AFAIK) Notice the large Celestion name in in reverse like a Pre Rola label, but the new "Rola Celestion LTD" name and address are at the bottom. Very rare label, all "Pre Rola" construction. I've got four of these, one is at Weber VST for the G12M cloning project. Compare this label to the original Pre Rola label, note the differences.
http://southbayampworks.com/greenbacks/t1221trans.jpg


hey Jim,

I just bought an old 71' Marshall checkerboard cab with 4 of these late 71' 'transition' speakers in it! It sounds AMAZING! How much are these speakers worth in original cone/excellent condition?

Scumback Speakers
10-09-2007, 02:18 PM
hey Jim,

I just bought an old 71' Marshall checkerboard cab with 4 of these late 71' 'transition' speakers in it! It sounds AMAZING! How much are these speakers worth in original cone/excellent condition?
Around $300-400 each, since they're the 102 3 or 102 003 cones. If they're not those cones, and have 1777 or WF1009 cones, then you've lost the vintage value (and the tone) and they're basically the same as G12M Reissues... and Avatar sells them for $80 shipped or something like that.

So you better check the cone # codes for what they are.

Iceman8.6
10-09-2007, 02:43 PM
OK I know this thread is about greenbacks but I thought I'd ask this question here anyway. I've got 4 V30's I bought in Oct. 1996. How would I know if they are English or Chinese made? Thanks and cool thread. Lots of good info!

Scumback Speakers
10-09-2007, 03:07 PM
OK I know this thread is about greenbacks but I thought I'd ask this question here anyway. I've got 4 V30's I bought in Oct. 1996. How would I know if they are English or Chinese made? Thanks and cool thread. Lots of good info!

Email drdecibel@celestion.com

I have no info on Vintage 30's for manufacturing dates, although the 80's models were made in England, the V30's went to China well before the rest of the product line, but I don't know when that was.

Echoes
10-09-2007, 08:36 PM
Around $300-400 each, since they're the 102 3 or 102 003 cones. If they're not those cones, and have 1777 or WF1009 cones, then you've lost the vintage value (and the tone) and they're basically the same as G12M Reissues... and Avatar sells them for $80 shipped or something like that.

So you better check the cone # codes for what they are.


the cab is a strange one as it has the checkerboard grill, no plastic on the corners and yet PLASTIC handles...it is the earliest version of a Marshall cab with plastic handles I've encountered..it is a bottom/straight cab serial# A 05232.

the speakers are:

2 of them are: T 122 1.....KD X with 102 3 cones (I believe KD is November of 1971 right?)

and

2 of them are: T 122 1....LD5 T with 102 3 cones (December 1971)

all 4 of them have the transition sticker on the greenback and all 4 of them have black tabs.

Scumback Speakers
10-09-2007, 10:30 PM
Your date codes are right, and the transition labels are the rarest. However, the biggest money goes to the earlier block Celestion labels without "Rola Celestion" at the bottom.

As far as tone and construction, though, they're identical to the earlier speakers, except for the fricking label. If you're selling to a collector, or museum curator, then they won't pay you top dollar for them. But if you're selling to a tone guy, then it's different. Few people look inside the back of a 4x12 after it's fired up and sounding good.

I know I don't. And most of the old Celestions came with NO labels, just cuz they were in a 4x12. There were very few (less than 1/3rd) that came with labels, which by the way, were frequently wrong and described all speakers as 75 hz, even if they were the 55 hz T1281 G12H's or the T1511 G12M's.

Which is why I did this thread in the first place. I went :crazy for a few years on this, that's for sure. LOL

Echoes
10-10-2007, 01:27 PM
Thanks man! What should I use to brush or wipe the dust off of the front of the cones...they are filthy...or should I just leave the dirt and not mess with the nice TONE

humbucking
10-10-2007, 08:42 PM
jim, what was the cone used on original blues? you said in another post that the 1777 cone was used in the reissues, but I have seen that on originals also?

Scumback Speakers
10-10-2007, 09:02 PM
Thanks man! What should I use to brush or wipe the dust off of the front of the cones...they are filthy...or should I just leave the dirt and not mess with the nice TONE

An old toothbrush or similar for the crusted on dust. Keep in mind that this will not affect the tone (the dust that's on there), and you may expose cracks in the doping that may affect your perceived value of the speaker.

If it were me, I'd use an old whisk broom, or toothbrush. Brush lightly, do not push in on the paper, so you don't run the risk of cracking it.

Just be careful whatever you do, OK? I don't want to get an email from you in a couple of days asking me if there's anyone who has an original Pulsonic cone kit to fix your speaker you brushed the dust off of. :horse

:)

Scumback Speakers
10-10-2007, 09:05 PM
jim, what was the cone used on original blues? you said in another post that the 1777 cone was used in the reissues, but I have seen that on originals also?
That's correct. The original Blues I've seen had 1777 cones from way back in the early 60's. They could have different #'s in front of the 1777 but typically it was 53H, or something similar.

When the Pulsonic cones came into popularity, the 1777's went out. This was probably around the 65/66 timeframe, from what I've seen. I know my original Vox Silver Alnico from 1969 or 70 has the Pulsonic 102 003 cone in it, not the 1777.

Just bear in mind, the 1777 cone of 40 years ago is not like the 1777 cone of today. The paper changed, the voice coil changed, the construction changed. You can't compare a modern Blue to an old one, except in color of the frame, and the label. They are different.

humbucking
10-11-2007, 05:03 AM
thanks Jim!

Scumback Speakers
10-11-2007, 05:13 AM
de nada, humbucking!

JonB
10-13-2007, 07:56 PM
Hi all - first post here!

Just wanted to find out more about the set of 4 matching Greenbacks that I have and hope the info is of use to others

G12H
30w
16ohm
55hz

All chassis are JE7 T1534
All cones are 102- 14 (they are printed using a - not a / between the numbers

2 have some small repaired tears but the other 2 are in the cab for my 1962 AC30 head and sounding great

Any comments welcomed

Thanks

Jon B

Scumback Speakers
10-14-2007, 10:32 AM
JE 7 is the date code of September 7, 1972

102-14 is the 55hz Pulsonic bass cone

These were basically the same speaker as the T1281 G12H30 55 hz from previous years in the 60's. Great speakers, as you already know. Worth about $350-450 each in perfect condition, less if there are repairs.

JonB
11-03-2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the info

Jon

RedUK
11-05-2007, 11:27 AM
Hi chaps,

I'm not that well informed about these things so any info very welcome indeed !

I just picked these up today (plan is to put them in my '77 JMP 50w combo) - one seems to be straightforward enough - a 1971 G12H with a date code that matches the info I found online and "1777" on the cone.

the second one LOOKS to have a dual concentric cone and a date code that doesn't match the date code info, and it says it is 40Hz bass resonance.

2 questions:
1. Any info or opinions at all on these ?
2. Are they going to be a good match for my JMP ?

Thanks,

Tim

Pics:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1025.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1026.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1031.jpg


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1027.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1028.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/guitars/DSCF1030.jpg

Scumback Speakers
11-05-2007, 08:15 PM
The T1234X with DJ15 for the date code is a BlackBack Celestion G12H30 8 ohm lead cone style speaker. The 1777 75hz cone was stock in these, yours was made April 15, 1976, not in 1971 (date code chart here: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html ) and could be a nice sounding speaker.

The other one, T2328 frame code, was made October 13, 1975 and you'll probably have to email drdecibel@celestion.com to get info on that one. Basically it is a G12H30 with a low bass response cone, but not one of the sought after models. The dual cone with the "whizzer" cone was (I think) used in PA and organ cabs. Definitely not the known sought after type of Celestion, though, although it may sound just fine for your amp/tone needs.

I'd wire them up in series for 16 ohms, plug them into a 30-50 watt amp and carefully turn up the volume to check them out.

chris_d
11-05-2007, 08:50 PM
Thanks man! What should I use to brush or wipe the dust off of the front of the cones...they are filthy...or should I just leave the dirt and not mess with the nice TONE

Sometimes a dry paintbrush will do a nice low impact job on delicate surfaces like that. Less stiff than a toothbrush or whatever, but still good enough to get most dust off. I have dozens of these cheepo 2" staining/glue brushes all over the place for cleaning stuff like that, they also work nicely for PCBs, keyboards, etc.

-chris

RedUK
11-06-2007, 02:57 AM
The T1234X with DJ15 for the date code is a BlackBack Celestion G12H30 8 ohm lead cone style speaker. The 1777 75hz cone was stock in these, yours was made April 15, 1976, not in 1971 (date code chart here: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html ) and could be a nice sounding speaker.

The other one, T2328 frame code, was made October 13, 1975 and you'll probably have to email drdecibel@celestion.com to get info on that one. Basically it is a G12H30 with a low bass response cone, but not one of the sought after models. The dual cone with the "whizzer" cone was (I think) used in PA and organ cabs. Definitely not the known sought after type of Celestion, though, although it may sound just fine for your amp/tone needs.

I'd wire them up in series for 16 ohms, plug them into a 30-50 watt amp and carefully turn up the volume to check them out.

Thank you very much, that's great

Scumback Speakers
11-06-2007, 08:36 AM
Glad I could help you out a bit. :D

RedUK
11-10-2007, 09:02 AM
The T1234X with DJ15 for the date code is a BlackBack Celestion G12H30 8 ohm lead cone style speaker. The 1777 75hz cone was stock in these, yours was made April 15, 1976, not in 1971 (date code chart here: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html ) and could be a nice sounding speaker.

The other one, T2328 frame code, was made October 13, 1975 and you'll probably have to email drdecibel@celestion.com to get info on that one. Basically it is a G12H30 with a low bass response cone, but not one of the sought after models. The dual cone with the "whizzer" cone was (I think) used in PA and organ cabs. Definitely not the known sought after type of Celestion, though, although it may sound just fine for your amp/tone needs.

I'd wire them up in series for 16 ohms, plug them into a 30-50 watt amp and carefully turn up the volume to check them out.

do you suppose the concentric one could be reconed for guitar combo use ?

And out of interest what's a ballpark price for 12" reconing ?

Thanks,

Tim

Scumback Speakers
11-11-2007, 06:20 AM
Try it and find out. Reconing a 12" speaker is around $75-105 depending on who's recone kit you want.

solitaire
11-17-2007, 10:53 PM
Hey guys! I ran into this auction over at fleebay. Never seen a basket like this one, and certainly not on a Celestion, though the label says it's a G12M. Seems the label was retrofited of some reason.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Celestion-Fane-12-guitar-speaker_W0QQitemZ190173456665QQihZ009QQcategoryZ12 1165QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Scumback Speakers
11-19-2007, 07:47 AM
That's no G12M or G12H I've ever seen.

haslar
12-03-2007, 02:54 AM
I jave the opportunity to buy a pair of Celestions - the stickers are long gone.
Chassis codes: T1384 & JE25V
paper code: 102 3

What speakers are these?

Scumback Speakers
12-03-2007, 07:18 AM
HOM book says the T1384 is a G12L, golden sand colored.

haslar
12-03-2007, 09:35 AM
I've never heard about G12Ls before.
Are these interesting speakers?

RedUK
12-03-2007, 03:04 PM
Hi there - still trying to track down some suitable replacements for my old Marshall.

Seen this, any ideas as to accurate ID ?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/misc%20images/g12_1.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/t1mmyo/misc%20images/g12_2.jpg

Is being reported as T1217 from '76 with "J777" cone code - might this be a misinterpretation of 1777 or is J a valid code ?

G12H 30 ?

Scumback Speakers
12-03-2007, 07:56 PM
Nah, that's a 1777 code, it's probably just smeared ink, which is common. The T1217 is a 30 watt G12H30 75 hz bass response speaker. The 1777 is the same cone they've been using since 75. Yours are typical of the BlackBack cover era from 75-79.

The alpha numeric code under your T1217 is the date code of the speaker. Here's the date code chart to use: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html

1968 - 1991

YEAR CODE MONTH CODE

1968 A January A

1969 B February B

1970 C March C

1971 D April D

1972 E May E

1973 F June F

1974 G July G

1975 H August H

1976 J September J

1977 K October K

1978 L November L

1979 M December M

1980 N

1981 P

1982 Q

1983 R

1984 S

1985 T

1986 U

1987 V

1988 W

1989 X

1990 Y

1991 Z/A

The date codes from 1968 to 1991 are written in the form: Month, Year, Day.

For example: KH7 = 7th October 1975

RedUK
12-04-2007, 03:27 AM
Great reply as ever - many thanks.

What should I expect to pay for something like that in decent condition ?

Scumback Speakers
12-04-2007, 11:47 AM
Great reply as ever - many thanks.

What should I expect to pay for something like that in decent condition ?

You're welcome. Depends on condition, tone, etc. I'd expect to pay somewhere in the $150-250 range MAX.

*genni*
12-21-2007, 04:57 PM
hi everybody!

i heard fane used some cones that were also used for celestion speakers? if thats correct, what celestion speaker came with a "010 003" cone and whats the difference to the "102 003" cone?

i got one fane speaker from 1979 with this kinda cone and an aluminum dustcap. speaker sounds quite good with punchy lows and warm mids but unfortunately the dustcap seems to add some nasty peak in the upper mids that made my ears ring when testing the speaker today (:

greetings
carsten

Benou
12-23-2007, 05:10 PM
Hi everyone

A friend of mine gave me an old cab that belonged to his father and inside there were two beautiful Greenbacks in mint condition!!

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7416/p1010403yx7.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010403yx7.jpg)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6726/p1010406xf0.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010406xf0.jpg)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1387/p1010407ai9.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010407ai9.jpg)

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1281/p1010408dj1.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010408dj1.jpg)

They are T1217, and both cones have 102 003 stamped on them. The serials are 6BB and 21BB. They seem to have been mislabeled since according to the date codes they should be from February 1957. I guess they should read as BB6 and BB21: February 1969.

I'm more of a metal head and they are of absolutely no use for me so I'd like to know how much they're worth.

Thanks for the help!

jezzzz2003
12-23-2007, 06:27 PM
EVH was a bit of a metalhead, worked pretty well for him..

Scumback Speakers
12-23-2007, 09:19 PM
Benou, those speakers, if they have no issues, should be worth around $300-450 each. This would assume they've been tested and passed for voice coil rub, vibrational noises, scratchy tone, etc.

genni, never seen or heard of an 010 003 cone, so I can't tell you how it compares to a 102 003 cone. Time to email Celestion or Fane, I guess. Good luck.

stratovarius
12-23-2007, 10:08 PM
I suppose I'm getting a little off topic here, but I have a 4x12 cab loaded with speakers designed for the PRS Harmonic Generator. Does anyone know anything about these?

Scumback Speakers
12-23-2007, 10:17 PM
I suppose I'm getting a little off topic here, but I have a 4x12 cab loaded with speakers designed for the PRS Harmonic Generator. Does anyone know anything about these?

Possibly. Shoot me a pic of the cab, and the speakers inside (more important than the cab, actually)...PRS had Celestion make them some type of G12M style frame with a 1777 cone, if I remember right, but I'd have to have pics, and cone #'s to tell you for sure.

stratovarius
12-23-2007, 10:54 PM
Cool, I'll do that after the holidays.

Benou
12-24-2007, 02:34 AM
Thanks for the info!

EVH was a bit of a metalhead, worked pretty well for him..

I mean I don't want to do them harm with my randall RM100 playing brutal hardcore tuned in B :BEER

Jeff West
12-24-2007, 06:55 AM
stratovarius- The PRS Celestion model was T4143. They are 16 ohm, have plain metal frames, 35 oz M magnet, "1777" cones w/doping, standard lead-type spiders, small dust cap like a greenback. Rated at 50W.

All the ones I've seen were made late in 1990, i.e., with "Y" year codes. After the RI greenbacks had first appeared.

According to DunxB they were a unique design combination that was pretty good, but never went anywhere commercially (or the PRS amp/cab didn't), Celestion ended up w/o much to show for the special effort.

They were used in PRS cabs, then Steve at Angela bought remaining ~200 and sold them for under $50 apiece new in the early '90s. I got a quad of those then. I've seen a couple with Angela decals on them, most are bare. Some turn up on e-bay every now and then.

I've read repeatedly that Warren Haynes used or uses some of these, but can't confirm that.

They have treated tan paper voice coils like a greenback, but with a "special lining on the coil former to increase power handling to 50 watts". No one I know including Steve or Duncan was sure what this was, but I did dissect a blown one a couple years ago and it's definitely not aluminum, it's a light colored flexible but very tough, smooth non-metallic coating tenaciously gripping the inside surface of the VC. I would say it looked and felt like teflon!

These definitely have a distinctive tone, quite tight, not scooped, not piercing, lots of mids and upper lows, can get a good raunchy and solid Celestion tone that's old style not heavy metal, but not a G12M25. The extra power handling is handy, although I did unintentionally blow one up with a 50W Marshall that wasn't dimed (hence the post-mortem). Later it was reborn as a 25W Scumback.

Are yours like the above? I think that's the only "PRS Celestion" model, but you never know . . .

Happy Holidays-

Jeff

stratovarius
12-24-2007, 10:38 AM
Thanks, Jeff! I'll be pasting your response to my archives.

As far as I can tell everything is as you have described including the tone. Mine are completely naked with no covers or stickers. One pair is stamped 'FY17 03T4143' and the other pair is 'FY20 03T4143'. The only markings I found on the cones weren't completely legible - '6402??'.

Jeff West
12-24-2007, 11:18 AM
Yes, T4143, June 17 and 20, 1990.

Very interesting, "6402" cones. I guess that's around when they had started to use those- or are they reconed? They are essentially the same nominal specs as the 75hz "1777" cones, but the word goes that the tool for shaping the latter had worn over the years and the "6402" was an attempt to recapture the original geometry more exactly, i.e., like an earlier '60s cone. They have a good rep, hadn't heard of them on the PRS pieces, though. Like I said, ya never know . . I think the "6402" subsequently more or less became the "53 H1777" used on the RI blue.

Do you like those PRS growlers?

Jeff

stratovarius
12-24-2007, 12:35 PM
Do you like those PRS growlers?


Yes, I do like them. They're quite smooth. I have them installed in a Marshall VS412, so I guess that's pretty similar to the smaller PRS HG cab. The only issue is that the whole setup is too much for my bedroom-legend needs. I think I'll hang onto them for when I become a super star!

Thanks for the info!

Benou
01-23-2008, 04:08 PM
hi everyone,
concerning my pair of T1217 from 1969, I'd like to know the impedance but can't find any info anywhere. Could you help me?
Thanks!
:AOK

stratovarius
01-23-2008, 04:20 PM
hi everyone,
concerning my pair of T1217 from 1969, I'd like to know the impedance but can't find any info anywhere. Could you help me?
Thanks!
:AOK

For the non-technical among us impedance sounds pretty esoteric, but if you can get your hands on a meter simply measure for ohms just like you would a resistor.

Scumback Speakers
01-23-2008, 05:14 PM
hi everyone,
concerning my pair of T1217 from 1969, I'd like to know the impedance but can't find any info anywhere. Could you help me?
Thanks!
:AOK

They should be marked as 16 ohms, and measure between 12.6 and 14.0 with an ohm meter, or multi-meter.

kush06
02-02-2008, 07:37 AM
Hi, I just picked up a 74 check cab with what I suppose are greenbacks, all 4 are stamped T1221 and dated BG22, Feb 74. Only 1 magnet cover but it's either a creamback or faded greenie. Looks like they've been reconed, can anyone provide info on these cone codes? 2 are W1009, are those similar to the Waldom WF1009 mentioned in an earlier thread? The other 2 have codes of R1C1T1V and what looks like 1C15G. Any help is greatly appreciated. These things are worth squat, right? :jo