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View Full Version : 50watt head + 50watt cab??


zep41
02-17-2010, 10:19 AM
Is this ok or not?

I have a 50 watt plexi that I wanted to match with a Celestion loaded cab. I was talking to the guy at Avatar cabs and we decided that the Greenbacks were best for what I am looking for -- but a 212 cab with 2 greenbacks is 50 watts. Is my amp head a mis-match because its 50 watts? Meaning shouldnt the cab be greater wattage than the amp?

The guy at Avatar did say that he thinks it will be fine -- he does this for a living so I take his word for it -- but what am I missing here? Can I possibly put too much strain on the speakers and ruin them after one year or something?

JubileeMan 2555
02-17-2010, 10:45 AM
I don't care if he does it for a living. A 50 watt marshall puts out a lot more then just 50watts before it even starts to distort. I'm actually rather upset that he's saying that it would work fine for you.

The general rule is to DOUBLE the cab's wattage for the wattage rating of the amp.

I have a 50watt marshall with an attenuator, and I'd still not trust the 50watt rating. I run a 2x12 with TWO 100watt M75 by scumback for a total of 200watt cab. I'd say go that route. Get an empty cab and get a greenback that can handle the wattage.

ALSO, keep in mind, some like it, but I HATE speaker distortion. Even if the speakers don't blow in that setup, they'll be stressing rather hard and adding lots of strange sounds to your amp's tone. Not good IMO.

(The Marshall clips below are using those speakers btw)

TELECOLLECTOR
02-17-2010, 10:46 AM
I'll defer to the experts, but conventional wisdom says that most amps rated 50 watts RMS are measured before clipping. That occurs (with variance) somewhere around 4-5 on the volume knob on many amps.

Cranked, a 50 watter may actually put out 80-90 watts.

Some speakers are probably very conservatively rated and could handle it.

Others, perhaps not.

michael.e
02-17-2010, 11:47 AM
I blew out a 100 watt Fane Alnico with my '72 JMP 50. 1 OD in front and that was it.

Gnarlly
02-17-2010, 12:08 PM
If you like the general tone of Greenbacks, but need more power-handling in a 2x12 configuration, you might want to look into G12-65 speakers. They were designed to be a higher-powered "greenback," and sound great with Marshalls.

A much less expensive alternative would be Eminence GB12's, which I believe are rated at 50 watts per speaker. I owned a 4x12 with these at one time, and thought they were great speakers with a lot of the Greenback vibe.

blackba
02-17-2010, 12:30 PM
You are really pushing it with that setup. You may be fine if you don't crank the amp, but its still risky. I have heard that people were blowing up greenbacks in a 412 with a 100Watt Marshall, which is why Celestion came out with the G12H30 (not sure how accurate this is).

I run a 50Watt Vox AC50 with a 212 with 2 G12H30's and I have been fine, but I realize it would not be too hard to blow the speakers if I wanted too.

I have never heard of the double wattage of speakers compared to the amp rule, but that sounds like a safe bet. So that would mean you would need 2 50Watt speakers for your 212.

jay42
02-17-2010, 03:03 PM
Is this ok or not?There are a number of pro's who do this on purpose. They love the tone and don't mind blowing speakers and having them reconed. I'm thinking about Robben Ford, EC, Santana, Keith Richards and others. If you can't afford that, look for an alternative. To me, it's a crime that the 1265's are only in the Heritage line...they cost too much.

blackba
02-17-2010, 03:16 PM
There are a number of pro's who do this on purpose. They love the tone and don't mind blowing speakers and having them reconed. I'm thinking about Robben Ford, EC, Santana, Keith Richards and others. If you can't afford that, look for an alternative. To me, it's a crime that the 1265's are only in the Heritage line...they cost too much.

There is always the Warehouse ET-65 or Weber 1265. I am sure they don't sound exactly like a Celestion G12-65, but they both are nice speakers....

zep41
02-17-2010, 03:27 PM
Thanks all for your input.

I am not getting the Greenbacks any more and went with the G12-65 speakers. Complete bummer that they cost more, but I am not going to risk blowing speakers and replacing them. I figured that the reason the pros do it is cause they can afford changing speakers all the time --- normal people like me cannot.

So 2 65 watt speakers will give me enough room, and supposedly, they sound like the greenback anyways. I could have went the route of a 412 cab with greenbacks, but I cant justify lugging a 412 cab around with the rest of my gear if I really dont have to. 212 is good enough.

Anyone with any Plexi + G12-65 speaker experience??

SkydogFan81
02-17-2010, 04:20 PM
65's are darker and smoother. Greg Germino runs his LV55 with 2 greenbacks for years. He told me that 25W is a conservative rating...like a 15W Blue.

jpage
02-17-2010, 10:37 PM
I've run a 50w JMP into a 2x12 w/Greenbacks for a while now and have had no speaker issues. Never dimed everything unattenuated for any amount of time though--can't imagine anywhere I would either...

GCDEF
02-18-2010, 08:41 AM
The general rule is to DOUBLE the cab's wattage for the wattage rating of the amp.


I don't think that's any kind of "rule". If it is, a lot of amp manufacturers break it. Fender's 60 watt Super Sonic has a 60 watt V30 in it as do many 50 watt combos for example. Double speaker wattage, is certainly safer than cutting it close, but you don't need to go that far.

rmconner80
02-18-2010, 08:49 AM
I think you'll be happy with the 65s. If you are worried about blowing speakers, then you should probably use caution and over estimate speaker wattage.

If you aren't worried, it's because you probably don't dime it, generally use an attenuator, and may use boosts but nothing over the top and nothing resembling a square wave (the killer for overheating speakers!). I fit into this latter category, and am in the process of securing two 25 watt greenback style speakers for my JMP50. I'm not worried about it. If it blows I'll post here :)

My Matchless SC30 has been cranked for years. It has a 30 watt speaker in it. It is dissipating probably 48+ watts at the plates. No problems, no worries.

Babaji
02-18-2010, 11:07 AM
...Marshall installed G12-25's and G12H-30's(from the mid 60's) in a number of their 2X12 50w combos. Having said that, and knowing that a cranked 50watter puts out more than 50 watts(60-70-80watts), I haven't seen a lot of blown speakers in those combos(I've bought and sold a lot of them over the years). I do like to err on the side of caution though...G12-65's are a good choice as are G12H-30's. Also, Vintage 30's are another option(brighter, edgier). The G12-65's(I just added some original ones to a 1977 four input 50w combo...a little darker, smoother.) are a good choice!
Bill

joolzriff
02-18-2010, 12:06 PM
different wattage but ive ran a 100W SLO through my 4x12 100w greenback cab for years with no problems,and played loud too!!!!

zep41
02-18-2010, 12:49 PM
different wattage but ive ran a 100W SLO through my 4x12 100w greenback cab for years with no problems,and played loud too!!!!

Over the past few days of doing some research I have found a good handful of guys who play with cabs that match the wattage of the amp exactly, and have had no problems. Even the owner of the cab company I have been talking to (avatar cabs) says he has run his 50 watt head thru a 212 cab with 25 watt greenbacks and he has no problems. But he also said there is a potential for damage if you are running the amp on high volume / overdrive for a while.

Which is the reason I wanted the cab for the first place. The head I want to use onstage -- I only want to have it with me for certain numbers where I want to crank the amp and use no pedals. And going off of what a lot of people have been saying about doubling the wattage of the amp, I figure I'd rather be safe than sorry. I would just hate to blow a speaker - even after one year of use - and have to buy another one, if all I had to do from the beginning was just practice some preventative maintenance ya know.

jchan
02-18-2010, 12:54 PM
I used a Splawn 100 watt head into an Avatar 2x12 with Greenbacks (25 watters) for almost a year of gigging and never had a problem. I did not have the volume up more than 10 or 11 o'clock so its tough to know exactly how much power it was putting out. I knew that I wasn't cranking the amp so I really didn't worry about it.

For the last year or so I have been running a 50 watt plexi into a 2x12 avatar with Greenback+G12H30 and have not any problems. I run both volumes a bit less than noon.

Another option if you're worried is to get Scumback M75's rated at 65 watts. The G12-65's are great speakers also.

zep41
02-18-2010, 12:58 PM
I used a Splawn 100 watt head into an Avatar 2x12 with Greenbacks (25 watters) for almost a year of gigging and never had a problem. I did not have the volume up more than 10 or 11 o'clock so its tough to know exactly how much power it was putting out. I knew that I wasn't cranking the amp so I really didn't worry about it.

For the last year or so I have been running a 50 watt plexi into a 2x12 avatar with Greenback+G12H30 and have not any problems. I run both volumes a bit less than noon.

Another option if you're worried is to get Scumback M75's rated at 65 watts. The G12-65's are great speakers also.

yep - thats what I went with, the G12 65s. Sucks that they cost more, but from what I understand, that is the speaker I am looking for. I am a little weary of how everyone says it is a very dark speaker, and I play with a good amount of treble - but I will just control that with the presence and treble on the amp. If that is sufficient to cut thru a full band while I play a solo, then I am good.

pappafox
02-18-2010, 03:42 PM
Hey Zep...Would you mind posting your thoughts when you get your G1265's? I'm thinking along those same lines.

neville5000
02-18-2010, 05:12 PM
You'll prollly be all right. I run a 15 watt blue in my 1x12, 18 watt 65 London and I keep the volume around 7, which is breaking up pretty good. I've never had a problem; doesn't mean I won't, but I've been rocking this set-up for 2 years.

jonny toetags
02-18-2010, 05:38 PM
It's fine.
I've used 50W Marshalls over the years into a Greenie loaded 2x12....I've never had a problem.
My plexis were on 7 on the master most of the time

michael.e
02-18-2010, 05:53 PM
Thanks all for your input.

I am not getting the Greenbacks any more and went with the G12-65 speakers. Complete bummer that they cost more, but I am not going to risk blowing speakers and replacing them. I figured that the reason the pros do it is cause they can afford changing speakers all the time --- normal people like me cannot.

So 2 65 watt speakers will give me enough room, and supposedly, they sound like the greenback anyways. I could have went the route of a 412 cab with greenbacks, but I cant justify lugging a 412 cab around with the rest of my gear if I really dont have to. 212 is good enough.

Anyone with any Plexi + G12-65 speaker experience??

I ran a pair of original G12-65's for a while and was totally underwhelmed. Dead flat sounding speakers, blah... I look for sweetness. I would go with a Gold and ASW or a pair of ASW's.

michael.e
02-18-2010, 05:58 PM
Over the past few days of doing some research I have found a good handful of guys who play with cabs that match the wattage of the amp exactly, and have had no problems. Even the owner of the cab company I have been talking to (avatar cabs) says he has run his 50 watt head thru a 212 cab with 25 watt greenbacks and he has no problems. But he also said there is a potential for damage if you are running the amp on high volume / overdrive for a while.

Which is the reason I wanted the cab for the first place. The head I want to use onstage -- I only want to have it with me for certain numbers where I want to crank the amp and use no pedals. And going off of what a lot of people have been saying about doubling the wattage of the amp, I figure I'd rather be safe than sorry. I would just hate to blow a speaker - even after one year of use - and have to buy another one, if all I had to do from the beginning was just practice some preventative maintenance ya know.

I use a 100 watt Superlead from '74. I have a '72 cab with a pair of original Greenies and a pair of Blackbacks which are 55hz. I dug the tones but I finally got to a point where I did not want to throw money down the drain if one of my vintage speakers takes a dump. I ended up buying a Marshall HW 4-12B with a quad of the Heritage H30's. I now feel like I can go nuts with my amp and not have a cow if I have to replace a speaker. I actually like the tone/feel of the H30's a bit more than the Greenies. I am happy to keep the old A cab as I now have a full stack :eeks

phoenix 7
02-18-2010, 06:30 PM
65's are darker and smoother. Greg Germino runs his LV55 with 2 greenbacks for years. He told me that 25W is a conservative rating...like a 15W Blue.

Ditto. I heard the same thing -- though I'm not 100% sure if it was directly from Greg or not. I run a 2x12 with Greenbacks with a Club 40 (about 50 watts). The speakers are rated very conservatively.

panhead5
02-18-2010, 08:52 PM
Plug it in and try it.This is EXACTLY what's wrong with internet forums .A huge percentage of classic rock albums that were recorded with technically underated speakers. The speaker breakup up is as much of the sound as the guitar,amps,and effects !!!

On second thought --to follow suit here ,:sarcasm this is very dangerous .

jkr
02-18-2010, 09:26 PM
I've run 50 watt Marshall plexi type amps cranked into 2x12 with ri greenbacks (and heritage greenbacks also) and never had a p roblem.

RyanJBurke
02-18-2010, 09:31 PM
ive run my DSL 100 into a 1960AX which has 4 greenbacks for about a year now with no problems. i have a sound proof basement so i never slack on the volume.

michael.e
02-18-2010, 11:21 PM
Plug it in and try it.This is EXACTLY what's wrong with internet forums .A huge percentage of classic rock albums that were recorded with technically underated speakers. The speaker breakup up is as much of the sound as the guitar,amps,and effects !!!

On second thought --to follow suit here ,:sarcasm this is very dangerous .


Very nice panhead, glad to see that our experiences are exactly what is wrong with internet forums.
I think beligerance is a bigger problem.

Foxtrot
02-18-2010, 11:45 PM
FWIW, I blew a GB in my old Legacy 412 (100W cab), & that amp (Legacy 100W head) never got above 6-7.

A minimum 2:1 ratio of cab handling:amp power is what I now go by.

cisspcism
02-19-2010, 05:40 AM
I hear people say use double the wattage for a cab sso 50 watt head should use a 100 watt cab......but I see amp makers like dr z or bogner put 30 wat speakers in with 30 watt amps...so I dont know who to believe. Should i avoid that DR Z stangray cause it has two blues and is a 30 watt amp?

zep41
02-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Hey Zep...Would you mind posting your thoughts when you get your G1265's? I'm thinking along those same lines.

no problem -- I'll post my review in this thread. I should have the cabinet mid-next week.

TDavis
02-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Is this ok or not

The guy at Avatar did say that <he thinks> it will be fine -- he does this for a living so I take his word for it -- but what am I missing here? Can I possibly put too much strain on the speakers and ruin them after one year or something?

I wouldn't risk it..there's alot of misconception about amp wattage ratings vs speaker handling, so I tend to go higher on my speaker ratings.

panhead5
02-19-2010, 09:06 AM
Hey Michael use your spell checker ! Now that's being belligerent .

But hey - if you don't want to try different speaker combinations because you're afraid of blowing something up so be it .Might miss out on some good tones.Personally ,I'm sure glad the classics rockers weren't so cautious.

zep41
02-25-2010, 12:34 PM
Hey Zep...Would you mind posting your thoughts when you get your G1265's? I'm thinking along those same lines.


OK I got the speaker cab yesterday with 2 G12 65s and here are my opinions.

I think it is a very good speaker. Not great, but very good. VERY smooth to play, but also very dark from what I can tell. This could be a good or bad thing, depending on your tastes.

The speakers can certainly be manipulated to sound bright by your amp -- but even when I turn the presence and treble all the way up, I still feel like there is a "blanket" over the speakers. Maybe its because I am used to a lot of "chime". These speakers really do not have chime.

But still very very smooth sounding with a ton of midrange sound. For what they are supposed to do, I dont doubt they are the best around (I have read this from a lot of reviews). I think these speakers would be perfect for a rythm guitarist.

pappafox
02-25-2010, 09:02 PM
Cool review, thanks zep. I recall reading that those speakers need a lot of "break in time"?

rmconner80
02-26-2010, 08:38 AM
I think they will open up quite a bit over time. The highs are relatively attenuated compared to other speakers, but they shouldn't sound like a blanket. Give them a month before you decide to move on...

zep41
02-26-2010, 09:10 AM
Good advice -- I think I am going to give them some time to break in......