What pedal can give me miles davis' muted/hoarse trumpet quality?

[purestmonk]

Im looking for miles' muted quality. the sound also feels a bit hoarse. not looking for a trumpet sound which I suppose can be achieved by using modellers.

this is the exact type of quality im looking for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlzrltGXezE

Thanks!

[clc12rock]

Check out Paul Trombetta pedals. He does some crazy stuff with pedals, so maybe he has what your looking for. He's on this forum too, hihowyadoin I think.

Here's his MySpace with a buncha videos.

PTD (http://www.myspace.com/paultrombettadesign)

[chervokas]

Unusual question. Miles of course famously used a Hamon mute mostly without the stem and played fairly quietly but very close to a mike to get that breathy timbre. I don't know if the OP is looking to get his guitar literally to sound like a Harmon muted trumpet, which, I would thinking, could only be acheived by midi triggering a syth or sampler. The other thing one could do is consider how the Harmon mute works-- like a filter emphasising the trumpet's higher harmonics while knocking down some of the lower ones and reducing the amplitute of the fundamental. One could try to filter/eq the guitar to match the frequency profile of a close miked harmon muted trumpet, maybe play around with mixing in some signal from a ring modulator to get a bit of a more metallic timbre, but that's really not going to get the guitar to have the envelope characteristics of a muted trumpet. Most like that's just gonna get your an odd sounding guitar. Weird question that I would think only a guy like Adrian Belew could answer.

[Jef Bardsley]

I think you need a guitar with a lot of resonance, and a .015 or .001 tone cap.

[tatter]

Parametric EQ or a cocked Wah pedal?

[scotron]

interesting question!

I find that when I run a gated fuzz into a OD with lots of bass that I get that 'kind' of envelope feel. Of course, its not nearly as laid back as that track that you posted, but I think you could call it both muted and hoarse.

the particular pedals I've been using for this kind of thing have been an Earthquaker Devices dirt transmitter into a zvex distortron.

[hangten]

Check out Paul Trombetta pedals. He does some crazy stuff with pedals, so maybe he has what your looking for. He's on this forum too, hihowyadoin I think.

Here's his MySpace with a buncha videos.

PTD (http://www.myspace.com/paultrombettadesign)
:agree

[purestmonk]

Unusual question. Miles of course famously used a Hamon mute mostly without the stem and played fairly quietly but very close to a mike to get that breathy timbre. I don't know if the OP is looking to get his guitar literally to sound like a Harmon muted trumpet, which, I would thinking, could only be acheived by midi triggering a syth or sampler. The other thing one could do is consider how the Harmon mute works-- like a filter emphasising the trumpet's higher harmonics while knocking down some of the lower ones and reducing the amplitute of the fundamental. One could try to filter/eq the guitar to match the frequency profile of a close miked harmon muted trumpet, maybe play around with mixing in some signal from a ring modulator to get a bit of a more metallic timbre, but that's really not going to get the guitar to have the envelope characteristics of a muted trumpet. Most like that's just gonna get your an odd sounding guitar. Weird question that I would think only a guy like Adrian Belew could answer.

Im trying to get the guitar not to sound like the trumpet but try to have those qualities.

By emphasising on the higher harmonics - do you mean high frequencies? Wouldnt that just be more trebly and sparkly?

Thanks

[purestmonk]

Check out Paul Trombetta pedals. He does some crazy stuff with pedals, so maybe he has what your looking for. He's on this forum too, hihowyadoin I think.

Here's his MySpace with a buncha videos.

PTD (http://www.myspace.com/paultrombettadesign)

thanks I've emailed Paul

[purestmonk]

I think you need a guitar with a lot of resonance, and a .015 or .001 tone cap.

Jef, what do you mean?

[purestmonk]

Parametric EQ or a cocked Wah pedal?

I have a empress para EQ. How do you think the settings should be?

Im actually running my guitar into a henriksen jazz amp and that jazz amp gives a lot of airy quality already, but that hoarseness is out of my imagination

[purestmonk]

interesting question!

I find that when I run a gated fuzz into a OD with lots of bass that I get that 'kind' of envelope feel. Of course, its not nearly as laid back as that track that you posted, but I think you could call it both muted and hoarse.

the particular pedals I've been using for this kind of thing have been an Earthquaker Devices dirt transmitter into a zvex distortron.

Im actually looking at clean sounds!

[chervokas]

Yeah, I figured you were looking for something clean. I don't think you're going to get a trumpet-like timbre out of a guitar with a clean sound, certainly you're not easily going to approximate the breathiness of Miles' harmon mute playing with a clean sound, or the brassy, splatty quality of an trumpet. You're just going to have to get to a guitar sound you like that has similar qualities.

I think playing around with a wah as a filter is a good idea as is playing with the tone knob and eq, but like I said, what a stemless harmon mute seems to do to the trumpet is reduce the amplitute of the trumpet's fundamental frequency while effectively boosting upper order harmonics tho, of course, the harmonic content of a trumpet is different from the harmonic content of an electric guitar to begin with. What you need is a synthesizer that can allow you to contour the harmonic content of your signal and the attack to give you the blatty pitch warble of Miles' attack. Unfortunately the guitar synth pedals seem mostly to be designed to create more aggressive sounds than the type of thing you're looking for.

You can experiment with EQing and filtering, or you can just play like Jim Hall and hire a trumpet player ;)

[daddyo]

Funny thing, the wah pedal was developed so a guitar player could sound like a muted trumpet player. Clyde McCoy was a trumpet player and his face was on the bottom of the first wah (and on the recent reissue).

[hading]

Funny thing, the wah pedal was developed so a guitar player could sound like a muted trumpet player. Clyde McCoy was a trumpet player and his face was on the bottom of the first wah (and on the recent reissue).

A different sort of mute, though.

It's hard enough to sound like Miles with a trumpet and a Harmon mute. I'd love to hear how you did it if you manage to get anywhere close on guitar. A nice, clean Clifford Brown sound on guitar would be nice too. As an ex (albeit never very good) trumpet player I find that I often think in a trumpet-y way when playing the guitar. (Come to think of it, maybe that helps explain not being a very good guitar player either :) )

[BluesHarp]

How about a pog before a wah?

[Andre357]

Man what a beautiful youtube clip. Miles sounds wonderful and I love the keys as well...

I'm a huge mile davis fan ( have about every recording he has ever done )....and he really is a brilliant musician.


A lot of that beautiful tone is of course the natural timber of the instrument ( I've always felt the trumpet was the most vocal sounding of all the wind instruments ) but It's also the stunning playing and use of dynamics that miles is known for...

The only way to really get close to that actual horn tone would be with some sort of synth or modeler I would think. Think Pat Metheny when he uses a synth or even Alan Holdsworth during his synth stage ( his CD " sands " will give you an idea what I'm talking about ).

But I think you can capture the essence of miles and that tone with good use of playing and dynamics and a very full bodied sounding guitar and perhaps a cocked wah....

[Jef Bardsley]

Jef, what do you mean?

I think playing around with a wah as a filter is a good idea as is playing with the tone knob and eq, but like I said, what a stemless harmon mute seems to do to the trumpet is reduce the amplitute of the trumpet's fundamental frequency while effectively boosting upper order harmonics tho, of course, the harmonic content of a trumpet is different from the harmonic content of an electric guitar to begin with. What you need is a synthesizer that can allow you to contour the harmonic content of your signal and the attack to give you the blatty pitch warble of Miles' attack. Unfortunately the guitar synth pedals seem mostly to be designed to create more aggressive sounds than the type of thing you're looking for.
In line with what chervokas is saying, if you use a small tone cap and roll back the tone knob to 2 or 3, you'll get a high mid resonance that's much like a cocked wah, but more subtle. By playing with the knob, you can adjust the treble you let through. Not quite like Miles' tone, but perhaps as close as you can get with a guitar.

[Cap'nMayhem]

At higher filter settings, the Menatone Mail Bomb has a similar "airy" quality. It would take some dialing in but I think it could be approximated. The trick would be playing with very delicate pick attack to avoid a rapid "ramp up" from your idle tone to the breathy airy tone. Perhaps a good compressor like the J.A.C. in front of the MB would help smooth out the transition in tone. With some practice I think this would be your best bet.

[freaksho]

Parametric EQ or a cocked Wah pedal?

cocked wah was my first thought too. and additional eq'ing would probably help you to dial in more of the quality you're looking for.

and i'll also support the caps/pots experimenting on the guitar, as said above. like maybe removing your tone knob completely to let all the tippy top frequencies through. i suggest this because my tele has a "no-load" tone pot, meaning when it's turned all the way up you feel a little click that indicates it's taken out of the circuit entirely. i might describe it as having an almost breathy quality in this position.

cool question! please keep us posted.

[orogeny]

i sorta remember the roland synth having trumpet. . . . muted trumpet? can't remember!!!!

[hading]

If it's of any interest, here's a link that examines the effects of various types of mutes on a trumpet. You might be able to get something out of it.

http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys199pom/student_reports/fall06/r_greathouse/r_greathouse_p199pom_fa06_final_report.pdf

[thedroid]

I'm gonna do the other way here and say you don't want a "clean" guitar sound. I read somewhere that the fuzz was originally invented to give the guitar some of a horn's thickness and sustain. you don't want all-out fuzz, but you need to have controlled sustain with some hair to cop "hoarseness."

I agree the mute is like a filter. A cocked wah would give you a range of filters to run through until you found the right one.

Another big difference is the attack of the two instruments. You'd want something to give you a more gradual, softer attack.

[Boosted]

+1 to Paul Trombetta. Think he recently came out with a pedal to emulate horn stylings. pretty unique.

[josegundo]

I had a mute horse once, never said a damn thing.

[kludge]

I think the right guitar/amp combo might be a bigger deal than a pedal for this. The trick with Miles is phrasing more than tone, and a lot of that is the expressiveness he could put on a sustained note.

If I were to try to emulate that, I'd probably use a relatively bright Tele neck pickup with the volume and tone rolled off halfwayish, into a treble booster and then some moderate overdrive (either amp gain or a good pedal that has a lot of color and dynamic response). Pick very lightly and use the volume and tone knobs on sustained notes, along with careful right-hand vibrato. The treble boost/overdrive combo is to give you a complex high-end harmonic content rather than distortion, so you want to be VERY light on it. You'd need a really fast pick with a sharp, stiff tip, something like a Jazz III - the goal is zero audible pick attack and zero muffling at pick time, which is really hard!

You might be able to get a similar tonal balance with a graphic or parametric eq, but be careful to avoid AM radio kinds of squawky tones. And the eq won't give you any dynamic response.

The sustained notes and vibrato and pitch slurs will completely kick your ass, btw. I don't care who you are or how well you play, Miles is better than you. Throw on some relatively easy Miles like Kind of Blue and just work on learning a solo or a fragment of a solo note for note, really doing your best to cop the fine details of the notes. Good luck...

[thedroid]

Important thing to remember is that you will NOT get the same tone from your guitar, but you might find an interesting, unique tone in the process of trying.

[rmconner80]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/rmconner80/miles_pedal.jpg

Make sure to use it last in your effects chain...

[Kelsey]

I think a slide guitar would get closer than a standard guitar, but good luck keeping up either way.

[analogmike]

Jeff Beck does that with his FINGERS... he's the best

Check out 40 seconds in!!! Amazing


http://www.youtube.com/user/ericmiller500#p/u/2/zwgugdo-rYk

I need to box his fingers and sell them.

[jaxapi]

Jeff Beck does that with his FINGERS... he's the best ...
... I need to box his fingers and sell them.


good idea ... with an hendrixfingers boost switch !

[brain21]

I would think a ring modulator set to mostly dry (so its really subtle) will get you the growl, and then a cocked wah afterwards would get you really close. I think thats what the PTD Tromboner pedal is doing. Then again, just get the PTD :-) EDIT: now that I listen again, its a ringmod with fuzz in the circuit, eqed similar to a cocked wah.

As far as what Beck is doing (and you could employ this as well if you have a trem equipped guitar) at 0:40 in is rest your hand on the trem bridge and "flutter" it with your hand by rapidly applying pressure on the bridge (he's not using the trem bar). Of course the bridge has to be set to be floating for that to work. Also, finger picking for a softer attack or using those rubber wedgie picks would help too.

[brain21]

Does PTD have a real webpage? That Myspace page is a mess (as most myspace pages are).

[trisonic]

Jeff Beck does that with his FINGERS... he's the best

Check out 40 seconds in!!! Amazing


http://www.youtube.com/user/ericmiller500#p/u/2/zwgugdo-rYk

I need to box his fingers and sell them.

Check out the first note from Jeff here:EbhngojbrzQ

[Lublin]

Parametric EQ or a cocked Wah pedal?
I'd imagine that would come close.

[stark]

When I get some time I want to try this wacky idea of mine. Get a Heil talkbox hook up the output tube, that would normally go to your mouth, to the mouth end of a bugle/trumpet that has a Harmon mute. Mic the mute and you are good to go.

[BluesHarp]

Ive always wanted to try this with a shure green bullet mic...

[Z-Rider]

Listen -if you can find it- to Bo Ramsey's "Stranger Blues" guitar solo. I get there, more or less, with a Reverend Slingshot, both pickups on, tonepot down (cocked wha!) into a Zendrive. Sounds like a muted horn to me. Like said before, using a slide can be of great help.
IMHO you need a narrow(er) frequency band and you don't want a clean sound. Horns (or saxophones, or violins for that matter) don't have a clean sound. YMMV.

Z.

[p.j.]

Im looking for miles' muted quality. the sound also feels a bit hoarse. not looking for a trumpet sound which I suppose can be achieved by using modellers.

this is the exact type of quality im looking for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlzrltGXezE

Thanks!

The slow filter on the Line6 Filter Modeler has a pretty horn like attack. You might also try some kind of warm fuzz/distortion into a vol. pedal and delay. Volume swells definitely have a hornlike quality to them.

PJ

[analogmike]

When I get some time I want to try this wacky idea of mine. Get a Heil talkbox hook up the output tube, that would normally go to your mouth, to the mouth end of a bugle/trumpet that has a Harmon mute. Mic the mute and you are good to go.


Great idea but Wurlitzer beat you to it by 30 years! I was outbid on this one.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170417764761

[stark]

Great idea but Wurlitzer beat you to it by 30 years! I was outbid on this one.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170417764761

Wow!! I must have one!

[ptdesign]

Check out the first note from Jeff here:EbhngojbrzQ

Master

Tal is distracting:drool

[TubeStack]

Mellowtone Trumpet Fuzz? (http://www.gearalley.com/shop/product.php?id_product=175)

"Named for it's brassy sound when played staccato at low gain, the Trumpet Fuzz is a harsh, nasty octave up fuzz in classic form. The Attack control alters the amount of gain and sustain. Max out the Attack and get a great sustaining octavia type sound with an octave up that comes through even on a bridge pickup (best results achieved with a neck pickup of course.) Turn the Attack control down for a broken guitar sound or play it staccato high up the neck for some trumpet-like tones."

[Gumby]

Id try hollow bodied electric with a neck p-90 >into a half cocked McCoy wah set to the peak high freq of the miles' partially- muted trumpet sound > into a moog LP filter (or any other that allows:) an expression pedal adjusting the envelope- manipulate this pedal as you would the trumpet mute engaging the filter to pass only the lows - set to the freq of the fully muted trumpet. Id run this >into a clean mid-strong amp and >into a 15" alnico speaker in a pine cab. I might even try an octave generator with a slight DE-TUNED & slight boost to 1 up and 1 down with original octave not detuned (and experiment with placement but id start with in front of the wah.) Blend a little fuzz for the hoarse-ness.

*This is strictly out my ass theoreticizing, though*