Warmoth Vs. USA Custom Guitars [Archive]

Gary Ladd

02-19-2005, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by dazco
I had many bad experiences with warmoth as far as wood that just didn't sound good at all. I threw away a lot or money on thier necks especially. I'm not to thrilled with the build it yourself concept anymore due to the imposibility of knowing whether you just bought a dog or not. But if i went that route again (which i wouldn't) i surely wouldn't go the warmoth route. i like the quality but i never got a piece that sounded better than average and most plain sucked tonally. Just my opinion, but thats what i experienced. never tried USCG, tho i wish i would have.

Well, out of the two Warmoths I've received so far, one (an LPS) has excellent tone and resonates great, both have nice playability & build quality, but on the other one (a
VIP2) the tone/resonance is still up in the air...I think I made a mistake trying to mount an IRW neck on a VIP2 with FR Trem...and the tone is WAY too dark, so I'm getting a maple neck for it to see if that brings it out of the darkness and I'll use the IRW for something else.

As far as the AAAAA top I paid thru the nose for, Warmoth really kicked me in the nutz on that one...the quilt between the PUPs is either a bad cut or sanded-out and to add insult to injury there's a 5/32" - 3/16" gap between the fretboard and the top of the body, where the 21st/22nd frets hang-off the neck...:eek:

To tell you the truth, I really regret ever hearing the name Warmoth and wish I'd looked into the new Carvin Cal-Tops - I could have tossed the Carvin crappy PUPs in the trash and still been ahead in $$$ would've had a set neck.

Oh well, live and learn :rolleyes:

BTW, did you see how ol' Gregg popped in with a Warmoth Corp. CYA statement...LOL :moon

He still hasn't had the balls to go public and claim that's a AAAAA quilt top he shipped me...:Spank

Paul Secondino

02-19-2005, 10:28 PM

I'm not an expert on either company but I do trust what I learned from luthiers that I use. TBoth of them favor USA Custom Guitars most of the time. Their main reasons are tht USA Custom Guitars will give you what you want and Warmoth usually will not.

One of the things I'll never forget is that Warmoth does not allow you to get birdseye maple neck with a birdseye fretboard.Also, if yo uwant a 6 string body style that will accomodate a 7 string neck.........you guessed it, they wont do it. They offer two very ugly 7 string bodies.

IN essence, Warmoth is banging out guitar bodies and necks.Generally godo stuff but my two local luthiers are trusting more custom guitars to USA C.G

I have atleast personally met a few guys that got exactly what they wanted from USA Custom Guitars like super light bodies, special routing, and more easily accomodated custom headstock shapes. So my nod goes to USA C.G.

Clorenzo

02-20-2005, 02:27 AM

I'm a very happy Warmoth customer and I've never used USACG. I did have a bad experience with one of the Warmoth reps the first time I contacted them, then switched to another one and never had a problem since. So far I've ordered:

Warmoth #1: Strat body from the Showcase, unfinished
Warmoth #2: Strat body and neck, custom made, finished
Warmoth #3: LP Showcase body, custom made neck, finished
Warmoth #4: Jazz bass body and neck from the Showcase, finished
Warmoth #5: Deluxe 5 bass body and neck from the Showcase, finisned
Warmoth #6: LPS body and Warmoth neck, custom made, finished
Warmoth #7: Tele Showcase body and custom made neck, finished

#6 and #7 haven't arrived yet, so I can't comment on those. As you can see most of the stuff is from the Showcase, which to me is one of the major advantages of Warmoth, the possibility of choosing parts from a huge stock and seeing what you will get in advance. However, with the custom made parts, I've always got what I wanted and more. #2 has a koa body, I asked for a specific shade (more chocolatey / walnut-like, not so orangeish as it usually is) and they gave me a gorgeous one exactly like that, plus a rosewood fingerboard that matches it colourwise almost perfectly, which I didn't request but was very nice to have. The fit and finish quality has always been flawless and their fretwork is very good.

As for the acoustic quality of the woods, no complaints either: so far all have given me the tone I wanted and sometimes better. The Jazz bass in particular, which to be honest I bought because I couldn't resist the drop dead gorgeous figured walnut laminate, is one of the very best I have ever played (I'm mainly a bassit), you can play chords on it with no mud at all and the harmonic richness is piano-like. And that's without even plugging it in. The price of the hardware and pickups they offer is competitive (this is important when ordering from abroad, you want to get as much as possible in a single order to save on shipping costs) and they have always delivered on schedule or earlier. I wish they included a truss-rod wrench with each neck but that's about my major complaint about Warmoth.

Gary Ladd

02-20-2005, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Clorenzo
I'm a very happy Warmoth customer and I've never used USACG. I did have a bad experience with one of the Warmoth reps the first time I contacted them, then switched to another one and never had a problem since. So far I've ordered:

Warmoth #1: Strat body from the Showcase, unfinished
Warmoth #2: Strat body and neck, custom made, finished
Warmoth #3: LP Showcase body, custom made neck, finished
Warmoth #4: Jazz bass body and neck from the Showcase, finished
Warmoth #5: Deluxe 5 bass body and neck from the Showcase, finisned
Warmoth #6: LPS body and Warmoth neck, custom made, finished
Warmoth #7: Tele Showcase body and custom made neck, finished

#6 and #7 haven't arrived yet, so I can't comment on those. As you can see most of the stuff is from the Showcase, which to me is one of the major advantages of Warmoth, the possibility of choosing parts from a huge stock and seeing what you will get in advance. However, with the custom made parts, I've always got what I wanted and more. #2 has a koa body, I asked for a specific shade (more chocolatey / walnut-like, not so orangeish as it usually is) and they gave me a gorgeous one exactly like that, plus a rosewood fingerboard that matches it colourwise almost perfectly, which I didn't request but was very nice to have. The fit and finish quality has always been flawless and their fretwork is very good.

As for the acoustic quality of the woods, no complaints either: so far all have given me the tone I wanted and sometimes better. The Jazz bass in particular, which to be honest I bought because I couldn't resist the drop dead gorgeous figured walnut laminate, is one of the very best I have ever played (I'm mainly a bassit), you can play chords on it with no mud at all and the harmonic richness is piano-like. And that's without even plugging it in. The price of the hardware and pickups they offer is competitive (this is important when ordering from abroad, you want to get as much as possible in a single order to save on shipping costs) and they have always delivered on schedule or earlier. I wish they included a truss-rod wrench with each neck but that's about my major complaint about Warmoth.

Just curious, how much gap was there on the LP between the top of the body and the fretboard overhang?

BTW, a Warmoth employee told me that they've been going thru a lot of luthiery employees lately and things have been not as good as in years past...and as far as picking woods, ol' man Warmoth doesn't believe in it...no tapping, no comparisons, nada.

USACG checks ALL wood for tone and the neck luthier is the former ace from Fender's Custom shop. ;)

Moreover, their skilled painter left a few years ago (he paints for USACG now) and that they've been having problems with getting good finishes consistently, even one of the Warmoth sons gave it a shot and washed-out.

BTW, most of the "showcase" stuff is botched paint/tops and customer returns. :cool:

Clorenzo

02-20-2005, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Just curious, how much gap was there on the LP between the top of the body and the fretboard overhang?

BTW, a Warmoth employee told me that they've been going thru a lot of luthiery employees lately and things have been not as good as in years past...and as far as picking woods, ol' man Warmoth doesn't believe in it...no tapping, no comparisons, nada.

USACG checks ALL wood for tone and the neck luthier is the former ace from Fender's Custom shop.

Moreover, their skilled painter left a few years ago (he paints for USACG now) and that they've been having problems with getting good finishes consistently, even one of the Warmoth sons gave it a shot and washed-out.

BTW, most of the "showcase" stuff is botched paint/tops and customer returns. :cool: The gap is about 0.02" on the LP. On the Jazz bass it's about 3/32". It doesn't bother me at all. For those who haven't had a look at the Seymour Duncan forum thread, someone posted there pictures of Anderson, Suhr, Fender and USA Charvel guitars with such gaps. I think it's normal when the fretboard extends beyond the neck heel.

As I said, I've only received very good wood and perfect paint jobs so far. I must be very lucky. And good for USAGC that they have the best luthiers, wood pickers and painters in the world, but of my 7 projects above, given my choices of woods and body shapes, only the Tele would have been possible with USAGC, and that's if you're ok with that ugly flat contour at the output jack spot and a non-Fender headstock shape.

*Most* of the Showcase is botched paint/tops and returns? It really *really* doesn't look like it.

I think you're angry at Warmoth for that AAAAA top and I have to say I agree with you, I don't think that's acceptable, but you should have checked it when you received it and returned it if you didn't like it. If most of the Showcase is returns, I guess it must be an easy thing to do, right? It seems to me that you wanted this to become a Warmoth bashing thread (it's actually a good idea, Gibson bashing is getting old) and I spoiled the fun with my positive comments, but you said "share your experiences" without specifying that they should be bad ones. Sorry.

telest

02-20-2005, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Paul Secondino
One of the things I'll never forget is that Warmoth does not allow you to get birdseye maple neck with a birdseye fretboard.

I just bought a Birdseye Maple neck w/BM fretboard off their Showcase. Maybe they changed their policy?
I've built a lot of Warmoth stuff and have been very satisfied for the most part. I did buy a USA Tele body once that was very good as well. Tommy at USA is a great guy, and I would much rather deal with him, but Warmoth has a larger selection with their Showcase etc...so I usually end up there. I do think Warmoth's policy of not allowing you to add to an order after it's been place in the system is idiotic.
As someone else said in another post about parts guitars, it's kind of a crap shoot as far as how the finished product will turn out.

Steve

mattmccloskey

02-20-2005, 10:40 AM

I have had good luck with warmoth. I ordered a swamp ash xtra lite strat body at one point and recieved a perfectly finished body with matching so well it looked one peice, and it was 3 lbs 4 oz. Super light and wonderful grain. I have a birdseye neck with rosewood board that is beautiful. I do notice that some of the showcase stuff may have really small paint imperfections, like a little rub-off at the edge of the neck pocket for example. But you get a massive discount on that stuff. I have a fiesta red alder body that has a tiny spot on the edge of the bottem of the neck pocket where the finish is a little funny.BUT it cost only 235 bucks, and is perfect otherwise.
The USA stuff looks to be great quality, but it costs so much more. To get it finished costs more than what I paid for my last body. I just think at that price with adding great hardware you might as well get a suhr or anderson,etc.
I just have had pretty good luck with warmoth and find them quick, inexpensive, and the wood is nicer than I see on production guitars, so it works for me.

Gary Ladd

02-20-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Clorenzo
The gap is about 0.02" on the LP. On the Jazz bass it's about 3/32". It doesn't bother me at all. For those who haven't had a look at the Seymour Duncan forum thread, someone posted there pictures of Anderson, Suhr, Fender and USA Charvel guitars with such gaps. I think it's normal when the fretboard extends beyond the neck heel.

As I said, I've only received very good wood and perfect paint jobs so far. I must be very lucky. And good for USAGC that they have the best luthiers, wood pickers and painters in the world, but of my 7 projects above, given my choices of woods and body shapes, only the Tele would have been possible with USAGC, and that's if you're ok with that ugly flat contour at the output jack spot and a non-Fender headstock shape.

*Most* of the Showcase is botched paint/tops and returns? It really *really* doesn't look like it.

I think you're angry at Warmoth for that AAAAA top and I have to say I agree with you, I don't think that's acceptable, but you should have checked it when you received it and returned it if you didn't like it. If most of the Showcase is returns, I guess it must be an easy thing to do, right? It seems to me that you wanted this to become a Warmoth bashing thread (it's actually a good idea, Gibson bashing is getting old) and I spoiled the fun with my positive comments, but you said "share your experiences" without specifying that they should be bad ones. Sorry.

Yeppers, I'm not too happy with Warmoth...and I would have returned that "AAAAA" B$ body if I could've...didn't notice it was a dog until it got back from my luthier.

BTW, it seems like the people that bash Warmoth the most are their employees, except for Gregg who must be getting BIG bucks to kiss butt like he does...LOL

:moon

BadgerDave

02-20-2005, 01:33 PM

I've purchased about a dozen necks and bodies from Warmoth and have been exteremely pleased with the quality of both parts and service. Here's a photo of the latest, a flame koa over mahogany thinline body. It was purchased from the showcase and I can assure you that it has no flaws.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3695802/1108982637145_Tele_007.jpg

I had one problem with a Warmoth product. I received a fatback Strat neck that wouldn't completly flatten out before the truss rod ran out of adjustment room. Warmoth took it back and gave me full credit on a replacement even though it was past the 10 day return period and I had drilled and mounted the neck.

Gary, I think you have only yourself to blame for your complaints.

Warmoth would have given you a replacement or refunded your money had you objected to the quilt body you received. All you had to do was ask. You didn't bother to check, sent it off to have it finished, and are now unhappy with the results. How do you know the guy who did the sunburst on that body didn't sand out the grain?

As to the gap between the fretboard extension and the body, it's not a defect. Obviously, the fretboard extension is the same height as the fretboard. The fretboard height can't be lowered without lowering the bridge as well. Otherwise, you end up with the strings too high over the fretboard. Strat bridges have a limited adjustment range. As has been pointed out to you, every builder who employs a fretboard extension over the body on a Strat type guitar has a similar gap. It's unavoidable unless you redesign the bridge and deepen the neck pocket. Even if you do both, you're likely to have problems with the strings being too low over the pickups and pickguard. At best, this setup will be nothing like a regular Strat setup. At worst, it will be unplayable. If you don't like the look of the gap, get a 21 fret neck.

John Bell

02-20-2005, 04:28 PM

Whoever is bitching about his quilt top got what he ordered.That clearly looks like 5A too me.The finish makes it look average.Usually the custom makers do a double stain technique to bring out the figure more.It appears Warmoth didn't do that.

I've always been happy with any Warmoth stuff I've owned.I tried to order from USACG twice.Noticed I said "tried"

The guy I talked to twice sounded as if he had been doing bong hits all morning.I left several messages for Tommy to get back to me on specs.He still hasn't called.

Cheebatone

02-20-2005, 08:08 PM

I'm suprised to hear Warmoth supply bad sounding wood. I could swear that I read a story not so long ago that said Warmoth supplied bodies to one or two of the more respected guitar companies like Suhr, Tyler, Anderson or someone. Perhaps it was USACG that supplied the bodies.

Anybody like to confirm or correct me on this?

John Bell

02-20-2005, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Cheebatone
I'm suprised to hear Warmoth supply bad sounding wood. I could swear that I read a story not so long ago that said Warmoth supplied bodies to one or two of the more respected guitar companies like Suhr, Tyler, Anderson or someone. Perhaps it was USACG that supplied the bodies.

Anybody like to confirm or correct me on this?

Warmoth has supplied some of them in the past,but from what I understand B Hefner Co. now supplies the bodies and necks for many.Was told this buy someone in the business.

mattmccloskey

02-20-2005, 08:30 PM

I know for sure Anderson and Suhr do and always did make their own bodies, necks, pickguards.
I have heard on a number of occasions that warmoth cut bodies for fender custom shop stuff. This makes more sense to me because many custom shop models are outsourced and not done at the main factory.
I think warmoth makes nice stuff, and if someone had a bad experience with a particular rep or whatever, that is a drag; but on the whole they seem to really do good work and have good service and prices.

Scott_F

02-20-2005, 09:33 PM

The thing I'm still confused about, and I'll reiterate it here for those that don't want to wade through 5 pages on teh SD Forum is that you clearly state that when you got it, it wasn't considered a big enough deal to warrant sending it back, or sending them an email or calling them to complain. It's an outstanding top.

For some reason, you've got an axe to grind now. I just don't get it.

If it wsan't a big enough deal to mention it when the guitar arrived, why is it a big deal now? I guess I'm still confused. :confused:

Gary Ladd

02-20-2005, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Scott_F
The thing I'm still confused about, and I'll reiterate it here for those that don't want to wade through 5 pages on teh SD Forum is that you clearly state that when you got it, it wasn't considered a big enough deal to warrant sending it back, or sending them an email or calling them to complain. It's an outstanding top.

For some reason, you've got an axe to grind now. I just don't get it.

If it wasn't a big enough deal to mention it when the guitar arrived, why is it a big deal now? I guess I'm still confused. :confused:

Actually, when I got it I took it to my Luthier and when I saw it there it was in bad lighting...my first impression was it was a so-so quilt, definately not AAAAA, but as a beater axe I'd live with it.

Then when my luthier sent me an inprocess pic and I saw that a BIG part of the quilt between the PUPs was totally obliterated, I got pissed.

I've seen a LOT of 5A quilts, and this one wasn't close...that Warmoth shipped it tells me volumes about their level of "quality".

BTW, this is a 5A quilt:

http://photos.imageevent.com/loozer/vansgit/large/FF.jpg

Gary Ladd

02-20-2005, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by BadgerDave
I've purchased about a dozen necks and bodies from Warmoth and have been exteremely pleased with the quality of both parts and service. Here's a photo of the latest, a flame koa over mahogany thinline body. It was purchased from the showcase and I can assure you that it has no flaws.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3695802/1108982637145_Tele_007.jpg

I'm glad you have such low expectations for your hard-earned money...BTW, did you pay extra for that AAAAA top? LOL

alderbody

02-21-2005, 03:59 AM

my "total vintage" warmoth strat is really good (tone and appearence-wise) and it gets better as the time goes by and the wood starts behaving more like a guitar than like a tree it used to be... (this quote belongs to someone else in this forum but i adopted it cause it's true...) :)

had some problems in the neck's building process but they were eliminated instantly.
They sent me a much more expensive and way much better quality neck because the one i had ordered was damaged while building and the project went out of its time-schedule.

I wouldn't complain for their woods and most of their parts-hardware.

El Kabong

02-21-2005, 04:49 AM

Warmoth makes very nice modern feeling products, far better than Fender's stadard fare. Nice, but not *it*.

USA Custom Guitars makes the finest vintage feeling necks I have ever played. With a nitro finish, they are as good as the big boutique names in the business that go after a vintage feel.

I have sold my Warmoth products and would only buy from USA Custom. The only downside is if you are the impatient type. It took 6 weeks to get my USACG neck, but it was more than woth the wait.

Larry Wallwart

02-21-2005, 08:28 AM

No experience with Warmoth, but USACG does excellent work. I ordered a neck from them after a guitar I bought on eBay arrived with a cracked neck.

They actually went out of their way to help me resolve my claim with FedEx.

Outstanding customer service.

fullerplast

02-21-2005, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Scott_F
The thing I'm still confused about, and I'll reiterate it here for those that don't want to wade through 5 pages on teh SD Forum is that you clearly state that when you got it, it wasn't considered a big enough deal to warrant sending it back, or sending them an email or calling them to complain. It's an outstanding top.

For some reason, you've got an axe to grind now. I just don't get it.

If it wsan't a big enough deal to mention it when the guitar arrived, why is it a big deal now? I guess I'm still confused. :confused:

+1

I don't get it either. You inspect the body with the lights off and you are giving Warmoth a hard time after you have the guitar done and you finally turn on the lights? :rolleyes: BTW, that is a stunning top by just about any standards. Far better than many PRS 10 tops. Grading tops is a very subjective thing. If you were that concerned about the top, you should have really looked at it with the lights on and contacted Warmoth to express your concern instead of making it your mission to slam Warmoth at every opportunity on the web.

There was another guy on that SD thread who was doing the same thing...dumping in every possible way on Warmoth because he couldn't exchange a $15 precut nut a year after he bought it.

You guys really need to take a little bit of personal responsibility with this stuff IMHO.

BadgerDave

02-21-2005, 10:10 AM

"I'm glad you have such low expectations for your hard-earned money...BTW, did you pay extra for that AAAAA top? LOL"

Nice. :rolleyes:

Gary, I suggest you spend more time learning about guitar construction and less time bashing Warmoth and those who don't buy into your "poor me" victim routine.

As I pointed out, the fretboard extension gap that you complain about is a standard and necessary feature of any 22 fret neck made to Fender specs. Anyone who has built a few of these guitars would know that.

The (Carvin?) guitar that you refer to as a superior example of AAAAA quilt has been heavily double stained. The quilt on your body would look just as prominent if it had been finished using the same technique. The wide tubular quilt figuring on your body is far more rare than the tight quilt on the (Carvin?). That type of quilt figuring merits an elevated grade even if it contains imperfections.

From the photo you posted, it's hard to tell if the figuring between the pickups on your guitar is natural or the result of some poor sanding. However, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, you could have returned the body for a replacement or refund. You chose not to do so and sent the body off for finishing. From the looks of that sunburst, I question the competence of whoever did the work and wouldn't be surprised if the "flaw" originated there.

telest

02-21-2005, 10:47 AM

I'll put in another $.02 for Warmoth here. Check this pic of my new unfinished, AA, "bottom grade" everyday laminate top Tele. Pretty good grain for their lowest priced material, it will explode when I wipe on the dye. I had this made since they didn't have a Mahogany 2xhum body in their showcase. The neck has some good Birdseye in it too and it's a run of the mill grade as well.

Steve

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/telest/bodyraw.jpg

robmarch

02-21-2005, 11:31 AM

I think it's a great wide tube quilt top. as for the number of "A's", different tops blow people away in different ways. even neglecting the potential weak figure area (which occurs in the absolute best possible place on the guitar, luckily), the top has great figure.

As someone who has bought a small amount of figured maple, but done a ton of research on the topic, it's always a crap shoot. sometimes, you buy a piece that's loaded with figure all the way through, resaw it, and find a dead spot. that's nature (and why prs is now using a 90% rule for their 10 tops). Also, the flame tops you mention as examples of 5A tops are far, far easier to come by, and far, far less expensive than 5A tube quilt.

As for the grain enhanced carvin you posted as an example of a 5A top, no arguments there. carvin is putting great wood out there.

As for your comment that prs would never deliver a 10 top with dead spots, I've seen several. And, their figure on 10 tops is generally not very dramatic now, certainly not as dramatic as the carvin or your warmoth top. the carvin top would be a private stock top, probably, and the warmoth top would be at least an artist grade. not busting on prs, as they still make great looking, well made guitars.

Clorenzo

02-21-2005, 11:37 AM

A couple of reasons why I love figured walnut. Both are Warmoth Showcase items finished by them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Clorenzog/bajo.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Clorenzog/bajo2.jpg

The reddish edge on this one is because the back is alder and I had it finished in brown.

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by BadgerDave
Gary, I suggest you spend more time learning about guitar construction and less time bashing Warmoth and those who don't buy into your "poor me" victim routine.

As I pointed out, the fretboard extension gap that you complain about is a standard and necessary feature of any 22 fret neck made to Fender specs. Anyone who has built a few of these guitars would know that.

The (Carvin?) guitar that you refer to as a superior example of AAAAA quilt has been heavily double stained. The quilt on your body would look just as prominent if it had been finished using the same technique. The wide tubular quilt figuring on your body is far more rare than the tight quilt on the (Carvin?). That type of quilt figuring merits an elevated grade even if it contains imperfections.

From the photo you posted, it's hard to tell if the figuring between the pickups on your guitar is natural or the result of some poor sanding. However, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, you could have returned the body for a replacement or refund. You chose not to do so and sent the body off for finishing. From the looks of that sunburst, I question the competence of whoever did the work and wouldn't be surprised if the "flaw" originated there.

Actually there is a whole section of quilt between the PUPs that has either been sawn or sanded through....perhaps you couldn't tell that by the pic. I know a bit about guitar construction BTW, and I think I could have hired and trained a dayworker of the street to do a better job than that...LOL :rolleyes:

The whole purpose of this thread (as well as the original on SD forums) was to compare USACG to Warmoth...I think it's hilarious that people claim that my "AAAAA" VIP is stunning, but no one has tried to claim that it actually lived-up to the $$$$$ I paid EXTRA for and that it is REALLY "AAAAA"...Gregg wouldn't even make the jump on that when I asked him point blank.

I understand there are people that wanna defend Warmoth, but putting the blame on me (the customer) is faulty critical analysis and an obvious attempt to cover-up.

As far as having two frets hangin midair 3/16" from the fretboard, well if that is standard fair for ALL bolt-ons (which is B$ IMHO) than I'll stick to set-necks from now on. :cool:

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by telest
I'll put in another $.02 for Warmoth here. Check this pic of my new unfinished, AA, "bottom grade" everyday laminate top Tele. Pretty good grain for their lowest priced material, it will explode when I wipe on the dye. I had this made since they didn't have a Mahogany 2xhum body in their showcase. The neck has some good Birdseye in it too and it's a run of the mill grade as well.

Steve

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/telest/bodyraw.jpg

Well lucky you, seems like you got "AAAAA" for the price of "AA"...heck, I would have liked to have gotten "AAA" for the price of "AAAAA", but I guess that's the toss of the dice with Warmoth...at least with Tommy @ USACG you get what you want with no surprises. ;)

Seems like Warmoth's QC is all over the place IMHO...

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by robmarch
As for your comment that prs would never deliver a 10 top with dead spots, I've seen several. And, their figure on 10 tops is generally not very dramatic now, certainly not as dramatic as the carvin or your warmoth top. the carvin top would be a private stock top, probably, and the warmoth top would be at least an artist grade. not busting on prs, as they still make great looking, well made guitars.

So you've seen 10 tops with the quilt completely obliterated, with finishing marks still uder the finish on a PRS? LOL

Show me one picture & I'll believe you, because having seen thousands of PRS 10 tops from coast to coast I think you were halucinating. :p

telest

02-21-2005, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Seems like Warmoth's QC is all over the place IMHO...

That could very well be the case. Usually I buy from the Showcase so I have a decent idea of what I'm getting. They did actually make a mistake on this body, it was suppose to be drilled for a 1/2" flush style jack , but they drilled it for 7/8". They offered to make another before they shipped it, but it didn't really matter to me. Glad I kept this one. :dude

Steve

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Clorenzo
A couple of reasons why I love figured walnut. Both are Warmoth Showcase items finished by them.

I wish there had been the exact item I was looking for finished on the Warmoth showcase, but all I saw was dogs like this one:

http://www.warmoth.com/showcase/bodies/large/VIPP40a.jpg

If that was my company I would have thrown that one in the trash or re-painted it a solid color...LOL :NUTS

fullerplast

02-21-2005, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
The whole purpose of this thread (as well as the original on SD forums) was to compare USACG to Warmoth...

I think it's pretty clear what the whole purpose of your thread was.....:rolleyes:

Warning, warning.....Buyer beware!....some people may think your AAAAA top is really only AAAA.:eek:

The horror of it all.

cmatthes

02-21-2005, 12:37 PM

Sorry, Gary. I've seen several PRS "10" tops in the last few years of production that had dead spots in the figure. The standards for a "10" top aren't what they used to be, and I've been through the factory enough times to know that things have changed. What is considered an "Artist Grade" top now is roughly equivalent to the "10" tops from 10-15 years ago. Disagree all you like, this is not my opinion, this is a fact (and I am a fan of PRS, BTW).

I DO know quite a bit about the woods used in guitar construction and also about this part of the industry. You have to remember that top grading is subjective by a number of factors: -- Manufacturer/Distributor grading scale
- Type of figure (flame v. quilt)
- Variation of quilt ("tight", "bubble", "Wide", "Tube", "Sausage", etc.)
Finishing also accentuates/de-emphasizes figure - double-staining brings it out, but the flame won't "move" if that is done.

Wood figuring is a random, natural phenomenon. It is not too realistic to expect your perception of a "5A" top to match the seller's grading if you didn't offer any input as to what you really had in mind. If you wanted a specific look (I'm assuming you didn't purchase off of the website photo?), you should have described the look and/or sent a sample photo - whenever I order something as random as a guitar top, I do that - you probably would have been more pleased by the result.

For what it's worth, I have never purchased anything from Warmoth nor USCG. I've heard good things about both, and what I've seen of BOTH, has been very high quality. You don't come across as very rational in your posts when you focus on bashing that company over something that you had every opportunity to correct but chose to avoid. Your argumentative stance makes it seem more like you are suffering from buyer's remorse for not addressing this when you had the chance than there being a problem with the product. If it was that bad to begin with, that was YOUR responsibility to seek resolution at that time, not to blame the poor lighting after the thing is finished and you see it for what it is. Not flaming you, just pointing out the way it appears to an objective observer.

dannymusic

02-21-2005, 12:46 PM

correct cmatthis, Gary sounds like a troll to me too...

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by cmatthes
If it was that bad to begin with, that was YOUR responsibility to seek resolution at that time, not to blame the poor lighting after the thing is finished and you see it for what it is. Not flaming you, just pointing out the way it appears to an objective observer.

You're right, I should have taken more time to assess the over-all condition of the Warmoth project when I received it...I had a bad feeling about this VIP from the beginning, I guess I should have argued it out with Warmoth, even if they disagreed and wouldn't replace the body (no refunds on custom orders).

With that said, I've moved-on and as soon as I get a better neck for this guitar from USACG I'm putting it up for sale, although I don't expect to get half of what I've gotten into it...live & learn I guess.

From now on if I want a custom guitar I'm going to some first-rate outfit like Driskill, Thorn or USACG...the old adage You get what you pay for seems to be appropro in this situation...

G Mello

02-21-2005, 12:58 PM

correct.. nothing but senseless bashing in this post. :rolleyes:

My main guitar is a warmoth, and it's an excellent instrument.

robmarch

02-21-2005, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
So you've seen 10 tops with the quilt completely obliterated, with finishing marks still uder the finish on a PRS? LOL

Show me one picture & I'll believe you, because having seen thousands of PRS 10 tops from coast to coast I think you were halucinating. :p

did you buy it finished, or did your luthier finish it? I assumed your luthier finished it. if you bought it finished from warmoth, and sent it directly to your luthier to assemble it, without inspecting it, you're trusting your luthier to decide if there's a problem with it. If he finished it, it's between you and him, especially "finishing marks".

and, to answer your question, I've seen several prs guitars where the owners were whining and crying about their priceless, precious "10 top" upgrade having dead spots. it's understandable, since they pay such a premium for them. In fact, I've seen it from nearly every manufacturer's upgrade tops. It's nature. dead spots happen. Not to mention, sometimes the camera doesn't capture directional figure.

I think it's hilarious that people claim that my "AAAAA" VIP is stunning, but no one has tried to claim that it actually lived-up to the $$$$$ I paid EXTRA for and that it is REALLY "AAAAA"...Gregg wouldn't even make the jump on that when I asked him point blank.

how much extra did you pay to upgrade to a 5A top, versus a standard figured top? I'll tell you if I think it was worth it, straight up. Without knowing how much you paid for the upgrade, it's impossible to make such a judgement.

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by dannymusic
correct cmatthis, Gary sounds like a troll to me too...

Hmmm...no one ever called me a troll before, even when I had long-hair and a beard! :p

Then again, I have smashed a couple of geeks that have gotten in my way from time to time...LOL

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by robmarch
did you buy it finished, or did your luthier finish it? I assumed your luthier finished it. if you bought it finished from warmoth, and sent it directly to your luthier to assemble it, without inspecting it, you're trusting your luthier to decide if there's a problem with it. If he finished it, it's between you and him, especially "finishing marks".

and, to answer your question, I've seen several prs guitars where the owners were whining and crying about their priceless, precious "10 top" upgrade having dead spots. it's understandable, since they pay such a premium for them. In fact, I've seen it from nearly every manufacturer's upgrade tops. It's nature. dead spots happen. Not to mention, sometimes the camera doesn't capture directional figure.

how much extra did you pay to upgrade to a 5A top, versus a standard figured top? I'll tell you if I think it was worth it, straight up. Without knowing how much you paid for the upgrade, it's impossible to make such a judgement.

Warmoth finished it, and the marks are under the finish...not a scratch on the gloss coast yet...

Secondly, I've seen non-10 tops with voids in the grain (the 10 tops were all perfect BTW), but none yet with quilts completely sawn/sanded-off yet...I'd be surprised to see PRS let something like that get out the door.

As far as the upcharge it was $175, probably not that much all in all, I guess my expectations got a little too high. ;)

robmarch

02-21-2005, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Warmoth finished it, and the marks are under the finish...not a scratch on the gloss coast yet...

Secondly, I've seen non-10 tops with voids in the grain (the 10 tops were all perfect BTW), but none yet with quilts completely sawn/sanded-off yet...I'd be surprised to see PRS let something like that get out the door.

As far as the upcharge it was $175, probably not that much all in all, I guess my expectations got a little too high. ;)

That wide tube quilt is very rare, and desirable. going from 3A quilt to 5A quilt could easily have cost warmoth $125 in material cost alone. And, that's buying sight unseen. Add a hand selection fee, or a "reserve" type of fee, and I'd say the upgrade charge is reasonable. Especially when considering what an upgraded top costs on a PRS, Gibson, or even a boutique shop.

10 tops your guitar compares favorably with, in my opinion
http://www.musicstop.com/prs/mccarty_teal.jpg
http://www.fredsmusic.com/images/.prs/prscu22sbbd10_tb_1090.jpg
http://www.fredsmusic.com/images/.prs/prssinglecut_3937.jpg (dead spots)
http://www.fredsmusic.com/images/.prs/prscustom22_4148.jpg (dead spots)
http://www.aplusguitars.com/single10va1.jpg (dead spot)
http://www.aplusguitars.com/cu24Purple1.jpg (maybe this one doesn't photo well?)
http://www.aplusguitars.com/cu22soaptri1.jpg (this entire top appears to be a dead spot, from several angles)

just a quick search. And, for the record, other than the last one and maybe the 2nd one, I think all are deserving of a 10 top designation.

and, for good measure, a 5A flame top that blows your quilt top away: the "11-top"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/robmarch/elephant%20guitar/sideshot.jpg

(j/k :) )

MattB

02-21-2005, 02:35 PM

Tops schmops, just play the damn thing!:D

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by MattB
Tops schmops, just play the damn thing!:D

Exactly what I've been starting to think, this whole debate has taken WAY too much effort, better to put it into working on my chops and writing some tunez! :D

In any case, the original thread on the Seymour forums got deleted (had to destroy the evidence, cross-product promotional stuff and all LOL) so that's that.

I guess after 7 pages and 3000+ views it got a little too HOT for someone in corporate. :p

Stike

02-21-2005, 03:32 PM

I keep reading about the bare spot on Gary's top is there because it was sanded out or cut off. The only person to really blame for that spot is mother nature. Sometime you split a billet and the figure is not exactly what it looks like on the outside and it probablly looked that way at the time it was split. With the amount of sanding that probablly happened between splittig, glueing, and carving I seriouslly doubt that there was enough sanding(especially in the highest part of the top) done to expose a huge change in the figuring.

As far as the grading of figure argument, what's the point? Everybody's version of 5A( remember when it was jus AAA?), tentop, etc. is slightly different. I look at maple billets and split tops everyday and thought that was a fine looking top, I think most folks would be more than happy with that top. I don't know how much extra you paid but that's a good looking top that probablly is better than "beater axe" status. A third pickup would cure that spot.

Now as far as Warmoth vs. USACG, USACG has a section on their site where you can select bookmatched tops for you body before you order. This would have saved you your trouble except USACG doesn't offer a body like that.

Scott_F

02-21-2005, 03:38 PM

I deleted it because you had turned it into a personal vendetta. End of discussion.

Yes, our forum is building a Tele to present to Seymour and yes, Warmoth, without even being asked, donated the neck and the body. We are appreciative of it.

But, enough is enough. As an admin of a message board, you sometimes have to do such things. Feel free to bash them on every other board in the known universe if that's your wish. Recreate the picture of your beautiful guitar and show it off here. It's all good.

I'm just tired of it. I should have left it up there as it kinda makes you look pretty silly in that no matter what they sent you, you did not inspect it in full light. It is entirely your fault, yet you wish to continue to bash them.

Your guitar is really gorgeous. You are wrong in what you are doing in my opinion. On the duncan board, I have the right to delete threads that are becoming a bash of other companies. I do not believe it is justified. And, at the end of the day, it's a benevolent dictatorship, not a democracy.

So, I nuked it. Feel free to tilt at windmills everywhere else on the net if you wish. None of my business. Thanks and God bless.

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Stike
I keep reading about the bare spot on Gary's top is there because it was sanded out or cut off. The only person to really blame for that spot is mother nature. Sometime you split a billet and the figure is not exactly what it looks like on the outside and it probablly looked that way at the time it was split. With the amount of sanding that probablly happened between splittig, glueing, and carving I seriouslly doubt that there was enough sanding(especially in the highest part of the top) done to expose a huge change in the figuring.

As far as the grading of figure argument, what's the point? Everybody's version of 5A( remember when it was jus AAA?), tentop, etc. is slightly different. I look at maple billets and split tops everyday and thought that was a fine looking top, I think most folks would be more than happy with that top. I don't know how much extra you paid but that's a good looking top that probablly is better than "beater axe" status. A third pickup would cure that spot.

Now as far as Warmoth vs. USACG, USACG has a section on their site where you can select bookmatched tops for you body before you order. This would have saved you your trouble except USACG doesn't offer a body like that.

Since SD & Warmoth removed the other thread, here's the pic of the VIP for anyone that's remotely interested:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gary/shred2.jpg

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Scott_F
I deleted it because you had turned it into a personal vendetta. End of discussion.

Yes, our forum is building a Tele to present to Seymour and yes, Warmoth, without even being asked, donated the neck and the body. We are appreciative of it.

But, enough is enough. As an admin of a message board, you sometimes have to do such things. Feel free to bash them on every other board in the known universe if that's your wish. Recreate the picture of your beautiful guitar and show it off here. It's all good.

I'm just tired of it. I should have left it up there as it kinda makes you look pretty silly in that no matter what they sent you, you did not inspect it in full light. It is entirely your fault, yet you wish to continue to bash them.

Your guitar is really gorgeous. You are wrong in what you are doing in my opinion. On the duncan board, I have the right to delete threads that are becoming a bash of other companies. I do not believe it is justified. And, at the end of the day, it's a benevolent dictatorship, not a democracy.

So, I nuked it. Feel free to tilt at windmills everywhere else on the net if you wish. None of my business. Thanks and God bless.

LOL...I hadn't posted on that thread since like Saturday...you among others were the ones that kept bumping it to the top, I was done with it, as I am this one.

I realize you want to interpret my appearance on the SD thread as some sort of "personal vendetta", but I was just posting the facts as I see them concerning the topic "Warmoth Vs. USA Custom Guitars"...after that it was either just answering questions or debunking IMO dis-info meant to cover for Warmoth.

When I said I moved on, I had...so let's let this thread die.

Hopefully it will remain in the archives for anyone searching for Warmoth info that isn't only from their fanboys...

BTW, this is the only other thread I'm aware of and have participated in except the one you "nuked" on the SD forums, though someone on that thread said they read about it somewhere else.

Sounds like you're the one that's exagerating now...

Legend

02-21-2005, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Since SD & Warmoth removed the other thread, here's the pic of the VIP for anyone that's remotely interested:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gary/shred2.jpg

The fact that you are complaining about that top is rediculous to me. Absolutely rediculous. That's a great looking top. Huge, wide quilt like that is hard to come across and expensive. That's a far better looking top then the Carvin? you posted earlier. I don't see your problem.

edgarallanpoe

02-21-2005, 03:58 PM

DUDE...you are bitching about *that*?????

ROTFLMAO!!!!

edgarallanpoe

02-21-2005, 04:00 PM

The fact that you are complaining about that top is rediculous to me. Absolutely rediculous. That's a great looking top. Huge, wide quilt like that is hard to come across and expensive. That's a far better looking top then the Carvin? you posted earlier. I don't see your problem.

Not to mention that it is also a *fantastic* job of bookmatching....

robmarch

02-21-2005, 05:25 PM

and as wide as that quilt is, I'm not sure that's even a dead spot.

it's a bargain for the upcharge, in my lowly opinion. I'd be delighted to receive that quilt top. everyone has different preferences, though.

Gadowguitars

02-21-2005, 06:50 PM

Its a shame when someone is that "spoiled" and can get bent out of shape over a great top as that.......we get excited when we get a wood shipment in and there is some jems like that in the pile. Theres no doubt in my mind that its a 5A top....and i spend days grading wood.:confused:

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Gadowguitars
Its a shame when someone is that "spoiled" and can get bent out of shape over a great top as that.......we get excited when we get a wood shipment in and there is some jems like that in the pile. Theres no doubt in my mind that its a 5A top....and i spend days grading wood.:confused:

Alrighty, so it's 5A quilt material...how would that area between the PUPs where the quilt is gone and tool marks are left in it's place (about 2" X 2") affect that grading?

Perhaps I need to take a straight over-head shot of the area so you can see how pronounced it is?

El Kabong

02-21-2005, 08:03 PM

If that spot bothered you so much, why wasn't it returned upon first inpection? It could have been rectified then, could it not? You assembled the guitar, so it can't be that bad. If it is killing you to look at that spot, add a third p-up. But then, what would you do if the guitar got a scratch or a dent?

sosomething

02-21-2005, 08:37 PM

Anyone who owns and operates a small business learns eventually that they have to create what I call "asshole policies."

Some people will go out of their way to be dissatisfied, no matter how good the quality of the product or service they receive may be, or how much special attention they are given. For some, literally nothing is good enough. This is why you see company policies like "No orders may be added to or changed after they are placed" or "No returns after 10 days." It's the only way a small business can protect itself from problem customers who never seem to run out of ways to create problems or complaints and won't hesitate to take them to the wall. Luckily only a small percentage of consumes behave that way, but there are definitely some that do.

The unfortunate side of this is that normal, realistic customers have to deal with these policies also. As a partner in a small home theater business, I completely understand, even if it results in a little inconvenience on my end.

telest

02-21-2005, 08:47 PM

Hey Adam, I use to live in Indy. Back to the show...:D

Steve

Gary Ladd

02-21-2005, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by sosomething
Anyone who owns and operates a small business learns eventually that they have to create what I call "asshole policies."

Some people will go out of their way to be dissatisfied, no matter how good the quality of the product or service they receive may be, or how much special attention they are given. For some, literally nothing is good enough. This is why you see company policies like "No orders may be added to or changed after they are placed" or "No returns after 10 days." It's the only way a small business can protect itself from problem customers who never seem to run out of ways to create problems or complaints and won't hesitate to take them to the wall. Luckily only a small percentage of consumes behave that way, but there are definitely some that do.

The unfortunate side of this is that normal, realistic customers have to deal with these policies also. As a partner in a small home theater business, I completely understand, even if it results in a little inconvenience on my end.

Even MF does it better than that:

Musician's Friend Double Guarantee

45-Day Best Price Guarantee
Buy with confidence. If you find a lower advertised price from any authorized U.S. dealer on an in-stock product, call or email us. We'll match any verifiable advertised price before or after the sale. If you've already purchased from us and find a lower advertised price within 45 days of your purchase, contact us via phone or email and we'll refund the difference after verification.

45-Day 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
If you are not completely satisfied with any product, return it for a full refund of the product purchase price, full credit, or exchange of your choice. We give you 45 days from the shipping date. That's the best guarantee in the music industry.

Go figure...

BTW, my wife & I own a small business & if I didn't treat my customers right, I wouldn't have profited beyond our wildest dreams. ;)

sosomething

02-21-2005, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Even MF does it better than that:

blah blah

Go figure...

BTW, my wife & I own a small business & if I didn't treat my customers right, I wouldn't have profited beyond our wildest dreams. ;)

Musician's Friend, owned by Guitar Center, does business at such a large volume that they can afford to cater to the occasional...um...complainant.

I think it's all your wild dreaming that's got you so wound up over your dealings with Warmoth. People build things up in their heads so much that there's no way reality can compete with the fantasy. Methinks the hard part is telling the difference.

59model

02-21-2005, 11:21 PM

I don`t think that imperfection will even show when you put some strings on and your playing, unless you leave them off and play air guitar....hehehe. Just a joke to lighten things up.

:D

robmarch

02-22-2005, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Alrighty, so it's 5A quilt material...how would that area between the PUPs where the quilt is gone and tool marks are left in it's place (about 2" X 2") affect that grading?

Perhaps I need to take a straight over-head shot of the area so you can see how pronounced it is?

that might help. it looks figured in that area to me, from the picture you posted. and I don't see any tool marks from that picture/angle.

Balance

02-22-2005, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
Since SD & Warmoth removed the other thread, here's the pic of the VIP for anyone that's remotely interested:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gary/shred2.jpg

Gary, I think that's a really good looking guitar. I understand your desire for it to be 100% perfect, but I doubt that your guitar is going to garner anything but compliments.

G Mello

02-22-2005, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by 59model
I don`t think that imperfection will even show when you put some strings on and your playing, unless you leave them off and play air guitar....hehehe. Just a joke to lighten things up.

:D

LOL.!!!

this is a great looking guitar. Thanks for posting the picture. A picture is better than a 1,000 words.. you pretty much killed your own thread when you posted the pic. The guitar looks awesome.

Scott_F

02-22-2005, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Balance
Gary, I think that's a really good looking guitar. I understand your desire for it to be 100% perfect, but I doubt that your guitar is going to garner anything but compliments.

Thank goodness nature isn't perfect or none of our maple would look cool! Is it me or essentially isn't all this quilting and such a result of nature's imperfection? Man I love big old fat quilted maple! Beautiful stuff.

http://toneninja.net/ble6.jpg

Balance

02-22-2005, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Scott_F
Thank goodness nature isn't perfect or none of our maple would look cool! Is it me or essentially isn't all this quilting and such a result of nature's imperfection? Man I love big old fat quilted maple! Beautiful stuff.

http://toneninja.net/ble6.jpg

When talking about perfections/imperfections, I was referring more to the tool marks Gary referenced earlier. I agree with you 100% on quilted maple and natural imperfections.

telest

02-22-2005, 06:54 PM

Reeek

02-22-2005, 06:58 PM

Hi, Bill :)

JoeB63

02-22-2005, 07:45 PM

I don't know how you could complain about that so-called "dead spot" on a guitar with that butt-ugly black Floyd Rose! :eek:

G Mello

02-23-2005, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Reeek
Hi, Bill :)

Hi Rick :)

Cheebatone

02-23-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by JoeB63
I don't know how you could complain about that so-called "dead spot" on a guitar with that butt-ugly black Floyd Rose! :eek:

LMAO!

+1 :AOK

MattB

02-23-2005, 01:15 PM

LMAO!

AH I missed that one!! AHAHAHHA!

TaZMaNiO

02-23-2005, 02:22 PM

Another typical mob-mentality dogpile thread...how typical. :rolleyes:

The guy puts out his take on a Warmoth v. USACG thread based on his personal experience and because it doesn't line-up with majority opinion he is attacked like a bee that landed on an anthill.

I understand where Gary is coming from, after getting ripped-off several times when I was still a wet behind the ears musician, I too have developed a zero tolerance for crap from instrument companies. ESPECIALLY on a CUSTOM order! :Spank

I don't know why he didn't send it right back to Warmoth (maybe he hates to argue with telemarketers on the phone? LMAO), but if it was me I wouldn't have put up with that defect for a minute, which is really a damn shame cause it ruined what appears to be an excellent top.

All I can say is I hope it sounds and plays great perhaps that'll make up for the defect.

:MMM

TaZMaNiO

02-23-2005, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Scott_F
I deleted it because you had turned it into a personal vendetta. End of discussion.

Yes, our forum is building a Tele to present to Seymour and yes, Warmoth, without even being asked, donated the neck and the body. We are appreciative of it.

But, enough is enough. As an admin of a message board, you sometimes have to do such things. Feel free to bash them on every other board in the known universe if that's your wish. Recreate the picture of your beautiful guitar and show it off here. It's all good.

I'm just tired of it. I should have left it up there as it kinda makes you look pretty silly in that no matter what they sent you, you did not inspect it in full light. It is entirely your fault, yet you wish to continue to bash them.

Your guitar is really gorgeous. You are wrong in what you are doing in my opinion. On the duncan board, I have the right to delete threads that are becoming a bash of other companies. I do not believe it is justified. And, at the end of the day, it's a benevolent dictatorship, not a democracy.

So, I nuked it. Feel free to tilt at windmills everywhere else on the net if you wish. None of my business. Thanks and God bless.

What a cowardly act...I wonder what was really on that thread??

As far as I can tell Gary seems to be very level-headed about the situation, it appears it was you that let your emotions get the best of you dood :p

Or was it really because of some corporate bigwigs trying to stifle discussion because of product promotions?

:bird

BadgerDave

02-23-2005, 04:33 PM

Calling BS on Gary:

1. Who buys a custom AAAAA body and doesn't look at it when it arrives. NOBODY! Every one of us would rip into that package and be ogling, drooling and inspecting that piece like it was Tara Banks and we were 13.

2. How many "luthiers" work in dimly lit rooms? Gary expects us to believe that this "obvious flaw" lay dormant and undiscovered until it burst forth in a in-process photo. He claims that it's a major flaw (“a BIG part of the quilt between the PUPs was totally obliterated”), yet he didn't notice it because of poor lighting? Right.

3. Gary calls the space beneath the fingerboard extension a defect, is proven wrong, yet continues to whine about it, claiming that, in his opinion, the gap is BS. This is like calling a bolt-on neck on a Stratocaster a defect because it's not glued in like a Les Paul.

4. Most importantly, Gary never once voiced his complaint to Warmoth, assuming that they would not be responsive. Instead, he rants on internet boards, complaining about how Warmoth "kicked him in the nutz".

5. Gary makes unrelated and unfounded statements about the company, attributing some of them to a mysterious “former employee” i.e.:

•they've been going thru a lot of luthiery employees lately and things have been not as good as in years past...and as far as picking woods, ol' man Warmoth doesn't believe in it...no tapping, no comparisons, nada.

Let’s hear from the builders on the board. How many of you “tap” solid guitar bodies? Gary, do you even know what tap-tuning is?

•their skilled painter left a few years ago (he paints for USACG now) and that they've been having problems with getting good finishes consistently, even one of the Warmoth sons gave it a shot and washed-out.

I’ve been a Warmoth customer for over 10 years. The quality and variety of finishes has steadily improved and is currently the best it’s ever been. Just look at the bodies in the showcase for confirmation.

•most of the "showcase" stuff is botched paint/tops and customer returns

If this is true I’ve been remarkably lucky. I’ve bought over a dozen pieces from the thrift shop (now showcase) and received only one defective neck. BTW, Warmoth exchanged it for full credit even though I brought it to their attention well after the return period and after I had drilled and mounted the neck.

•the people that bash Warmoth the most are their employees

This is based on what, a conversation with one employee who now works for a competitor?

I'm not a Warmoth employee and I have no particular reason to defend the company. Warmoth has, however, provided me with excellent products and great customer service since I bought my first body from them in 1992. My comments are not part of a "dogpile". They are my reaction to someone who has made uninformed (the gap issue) and irresponsible criticisms in a public forum. It's BS and I'm calling him on it.

mattmccloskey

02-23-2005, 09:04 PM

Tazmanio- are you serious? Level headed means bashing a company for one's own mistakes? This has nothing to do with "mob-mentality" as you put it. The guy bought a nice body, decided much later that he thought it wasn't perfect, then starts slamming a company with rumor, slandor, and just plain uneducated opinions. If many people are criticizing him for it, it is because of how ludricrous his statements are, not because we all decided to do a group pile-on. It is quite possible that many reasonable people can come to the same conclusion about something without acting as a group.
One more thing in general- why is the term 'corporate' coming up? This message board is not a corporation, nor are any forums I know of. In fact warmoth is a small business as well, so they hardly fit the notion of corporate-in fact the guy who deleted the original thread does not work for warmoth or run a corporation that sells guitar parts, so where is the 'corporate' in any of this? That is just a weak attempt at hyperbole.

MattB

02-23-2005, 09:56 PM

The guy bought a nice body, decided much later that he thought it wasn't perfect, then starts slamming a company with rumor, slandor, and just plain uneducated opinions. If many people are criticizing him for it, it is because of how ludricrous his statements are, not because we all decided to do a group pile-on. It is quite possible that many reasonable people can come to the same conclusion about something without acting as a group.

Here here!

Gary Ladd

02-23-2005, 10:26 PM

LOL...you guys still stiring the pot? :angel

All I have to say is:

:moon :moon :moon :moon

aquadog

02-24-2005, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Clorenzo
A couple of reasons why I love figured walnut. Both are Warmoth Showcase items finished by them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Clorenzog/bajo.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Clorenzog/bajo2.jpg

The reddish edge on this one is because the back is alder and I had it finished in brown.

That is Beautiful:eek: I'll be in the market soon for a partocaster, which will most likely fall into warmoth's hands, and I think I'll have to look into that. As for warmoth QC, so far everything I have seen or played has been excellent, although i can't vouch for USACG.

sosomething

02-24-2005, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Gary Ladd
LOL...you guys still stiring the pot? :angel

All I have to say is:

:moon :moon :moon :moon

Thanks for that, man. I can stop checking this thread now.

fiftywatt

02-24-2005, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Paul Secondino
I have atleast personally met a few guys that got exactly what they wanted from USA Custom Guitars like super light bodies, special routing, and more easily accomodated custom headstock shapes. So my nod goes to USA C.G.

++1 for USACG. I have bought around 4 Warmoth necks and bodies and have no real complaints, but the Warmoth compound radius always felt a little weird to me. So far, I've gotten 4 USACG necks from Tommy. They are the nicest Strat style necks I've played bar none, and of much higher quality than any of the Warmoth necks I've had over time.

Praline

11-29-2005, 08:48 PM

Is it possible to see the picture of the guitar? It's not showing up for some reason.

This is pretty interesting stuff.

axpro

11-29-2005, 09:53 PM

I'd have to say I am a happy warmoth customer too... I have a VIP clone i built, and although it is a little bright, I love it. I also have a warlock body (swamp ash) that I added a nice pointy neck to. THeir warlock shape is kind of off, looks more like the bass guitar shape (a little stubby) but it's cool. Also ordered necks from them (for customers) and built a few strats from their parts for a buddy of mine, they have always been top notch.

Dave Mc

buddastrat

11-29-2005, 11:50 PM

I just didn't dig the three USA necks I had. Quality was great but they all had a sharp tone on any of the guitars I put them on. I tried a Fender vintage type neck on one of the same bodies and it sounded good. It was warmer and didn't have that sharp "ping" to the tone. A warmer, woody tone with the Fender neck on. I later read on the USA site that they use different rods that give a bright tone. I wish they'd offer vintage construction.

But the quality was great. Best fretwork I've seen. Anyone know if they can do regular truss rods? I didn't think it could make that much difference but what else could it have been?

deluxemeat

07-27-2006, 11:33 PM

while i like usa's customer service compared to warmoth, the turtle has got the options!
the only thing that usa's got over the turtle for me is the u shaped neck and 6000 frets.
but that's it.

Hardtail

07-28-2006, 06:19 AM

I've had both - my overall complaint with USAG is that they don't have an in house paint shop - you have to make arrangements with them to have a body finished (they use a guy in their area that does good work). In addition, their necks are not fender licensed, thus the headstocks are not exactly fender-like. They are a much smaller company, and easier to deal with for truly custom work. Warmoth - I like their necks, except my last glossed out tele neck ('59 roundback profile) , but it had about 1/16" of poly sprayed all over teh fretboard, INCLUDING THE FRETS !! Friggen nightmare to try to get all that varnish off without ruining the appearance of the fretboard.

HT

johnmfer

07-28-2006, 12:23 PM

HT - Roxy Finishing moved into USACG for "in house" finishing last year, but a quick trip to their website to confirm this only leads to a page which says they're now "re-vamping finishing services". I've been following USACG for a few years, and they've always been affiliated with Roxy, but in that time Roxy went from being a local finisher, to doing finishing work in Wisconsin or some such place, then back to Washington and working at USACG, and now, who knows?

Hardtail

07-31-2006, 08:52 AM

Gary Ladd

07-31-2006, 04:58 PM

Ben F.

08-11-2006, 07:36 PM

Hate to resurrect an old (and controversial) thread here, but this struck me as a particularly odd statement:

I later read on the USA site that they use different rods that give a bright tone. I wish they'd offer vintage construction.

Where did you read this? The only thing differing about the truss rods is the welding, which makes them less likely to break. If anything, USACG prides itself on "vintage construction." They don't use any of the modern double-expanding rods or other metal reinforcement bars. If asked, they will use graphite, but only grudgingly...

Not to knock your experience in any way. Sometimes particular parts just don't work out. It may be that you're used to some amount of damping in the high end. Best of luck in the future!

-Ben

EL 34 X2

08-12-2006, 01:23 AM

In the past, Warmoth refused to even custom order a 21 fret Fender style neck with anything other than the standard 7.25" radius. They offered the other radii on their 22 fret necks only...never would say why.

I don't know whether that's part of the license agreement with Fender or something they decided on their own. But, after getting several nice necks from them, I switched over to USACG and have been very pleased with what I got. USACG sent what I asked (and paid) for, and were very accurate in their descriptions.

daddyo

08-12-2006, 11:38 AM

I did my first project with USA Custom and I can't say enough good things about them.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/daddyopapa/michellecaster006.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/daddyopapa/michellecaster008.jpg

Ken Zaprick

06-24-2007, 12:13 AM

Gary Ladd

06-30-2007, 03:53 PM

I used to work for Warmoth and have owned instruments from both companies. The USA Custom instruments are by far and away superior...

Sounds about right to me :AOK

fullerplast

06-30-2007, 04:56 PM

I used to work for Warmoth and have owned instruments from both companies. The USA Custom instruments are by far and away superior. Warmoth's feel and sound clunky for the most part. The double truss rod system also makes the neck weight comperable to that of a boat anchor. Having also witnessed some of the internal workings I can say that I would not put any money in their pocket. Their view on customer service is truely awful.
The USA Custom's I've had (and still own) play, feel, and sound amazing. Tommy and the boys are one of the most down to earth and helpful groups I have ever encountered. I ordered for a body last year with custom pickup routing and I received it via UPS the next week. At Warmoth you're usually looking at at least 4 weeks.
Of coarse this is my own opinion and experiences. It would be wrong for me to tell people what they should like. Enought wars have come from that point of view.

Have a great day!

Welcome to TGP Ken. I notice that your first and only activity on the forum is to criticize a former employer on a thread that was started over two years ago......:confused: You wouldn't be bitter would you?

So when you say Warmoth products sound and feel clunky, are you basically saying that all the bodies and all the necks of all the various constructions and all the various woods sound and feel clunky? What would you attribute this characteristic to, specifically? Is it that they just can't get the good wood that everyone else gets? Are their CNC machines not as good as everyone elses?

While you were working there, did they tell you that the double truss rod is only one of several truss rod options and that a single vintage style rod was available as well? Maybe you weren't working in the neck dept...

USACG takes a week to deliver, Warmoth 4 weeks or more....hmmm doesn't sound like the reports that have circulated on just about every forum I've seen but maybe they were the exceptions.

I agree it would be wrong for you to tell people what to like. Thank you for your sincere objectivity. Have a great day!

EunosFD

06-30-2007, 05:23 PM

And I don't think it's ironic that his username is "Ken Zaprick" either. :nono

The Pup

07-08-2007, 10:47 AM

Last year I ordered an "exceptional-quality" Warmoth one-piece swamp ash strat body with a black-brown-yellow burst finish.

Now I knew to expect a wild swamp ash grain, but I was somewhat surprised to find two "knots" on the top near the top neck pocket and behind the bridge.

I immediately contacted Warmoth and they said it met their quality criteria. I stated I would return the body through registered mail even without an RA# and file a formal dispute with my credit card company. After a second more forceful call I spoke with a floor manager who said ship it back and we'll credit your account. Three weeks later my credit card account was reimbursed in-full for $420.00.

All things being rather subjective...I would still buy from them if I had to.

EADGBE

07-08-2007, 01:10 PM

USACG checks ALL wood for tone...

How can a person check wood for tone without first assembling the guitar? And isn't tone subjective?

TimBascom

07-08-2007, 01:45 PM

markom89

07-08-2007, 01:52 PM

I was told 8 weeks for my USACG neck, and I was told the next week it was done! I still don't have it though cause' I was hoping it would be 8 weeks so I can save up, but Tommy has been kind enough to hold it for me. It's AAA birdseye w/ brazilian rosewood...

PlexiBreath

07-08-2007, 01:52 PM

How can a person check wood for tone without first assembling the guitar? And isn't tone subjective?
You won't know exactly what it will end up sounding like, but you will be able to tell by tapping it if it's a resonant piece of wood or dull and dead sounding.
The body I got from USACG for my Tele (the "Kelleycaster") was selected for tone and indeed it has a very vibrant and resonant, it's huge tone.

EADGBE

07-08-2007, 02:00 PM

I did my first project with USA Custom and I can't say enough good things about them.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/daddyopapa/michellecaster008.jpg
What kind of wood is that?

EADGBE

07-08-2007, 02:07 PM

You won't know exactly what it will end up sounding like, but you will be able to tell by tapping it if it's a resonant piece of wood or dull and dead sounding.
I don't really believe you can tell how wood will sound by just tapping it. There's too many varibles. Including what scale will be used, the neck wood, the fretboard wood, what type of bridge, what type of pickups, and on and on. About the only wood that can be ruled out simply by tapping it wood be plywood.

Curly

07-08-2007, 02:54 PM

I have paid good money to make the following statement:

I prefer USACG's parts.

-------------

In regard to tonetapping, it's an old, tried and true method of tuning wood parts, mostly used for acoustic instruments, but valid for electric parts in the hands of an experienced builder.

Jon Silberman

07-08-2007, 03:11 PM

I'm so tired of this thread but as long as I foolishly clicked on it yet again I might as well say hi.

rick13

07-08-2007, 07:22 PM

uvacom

07-08-2007, 07:48 PM

What kind of wood is that?

Looks like swamp ash.

Ben F.

07-08-2007, 10:10 PM

Hi, Jon. :) I'm apparently a glutton for punishment too.

daddyo's guitar is swamp ash with a lovely spruce lam top. There are some other pics here in the archives. I'd like to know more about the guitar, like whether it's chambered like a thinline on the treble side, etc. It doesn't have f-holes.

I've had a couple of negative experiences with Warmoth, but I haven't bought dozens of parts from either maker. My negative experiences won't keep me from going back to Warmoth because they are the only ones who provide some of what they do, and they perform well most of the time. I prefer USACG necks based on my limited purchases. From what I know of others purchases, they are seldom early with deliveries. It is hard to be the one who bears the burden of a mistake, but it is also an error to assume that one's experience is universal.

I'm curious, Rick, did you end up having the frets leveled and polished or not?

-Ben

michael.e

07-08-2007, 10:11 PM

I'm glad you have such low expectations for your hard-earned money...BTW, did you pay extra for that AAAAA top? LOL

Holy cow Gary, I think you owe him an apology.

Emmee

Jon Silberman

07-09-2007, 07:06 AM

I just finished putting together a Warmoth strat ,that was chambered from a solid blank of AAAAA flame maple with a conversion Bubinga neck and Pau Ferro fretboard. The finish work was absolutely perfect. When I brought it to Phil Jacoby @Philtone to check it on a Plek machine......the neck proved to be dead on. Phil is one picky guy for those of you that know his work. I am absolutely thrilled with everything about this guitar.....so chalk this up as a positive experience with Warmoth.
Rick
Same result when Phil worked on my Warmoth neck.
I don't believe Warmoth can't win on a board of this nature because it seems to me, from years of participation here, that a significant number of the people who like to tinker harbor a bias favoring smaller over larger when it comes to parts suppliers (it feels like smaller generally feels more quality conscious and caring than larger to some as a given).

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/682310/8450308/128109226.jpg