Got my powerbook....

[MagnumSSS]

Well, after all my talk, I finally bought my powerbook. It's a 1.5 Ghz, combo drive with 1 gig of RAM. This thing smokes! The only issue so far is that when the laptop wakes up from sleep the mousepad or keyboard sometimes need a minute to wake up later. It's a slight worry, but has never been a serious problem so far.

So, Protools, Logic, or Digital Performer? Just kidding.....;-)

I'm going with Logic Pro 7, but it's gonna take a couple months until I get the $. I'm also pretty sure I'll use the Presonus Firebox for my little audio interface.

I'll give an update once I'm using Logic Pro 7 on my powerbook since this doesn't seem to be a very common setup for people here.

Mag

[T.Wesley]

Interesting - I'd say it's probably not your trackpad or keyboard taking longer to wake up, it's more likely the computer/OS 'waiting' until the hard drive is spun all the way up. All 3 of the G4 towers I use (all OSX.3) do the same thing - after waking, neither the keyboard nor mouse (trackball in my case) will work immediately every time.

In other words, I don't think it's a problem :)

--chiba

[MagnumSSS]

That's good news. I'm glad I'm not alone on that. Your reasoning makes sense, so I'll go with that for now.

[eugewong]

I run Logic Pro 7 on both my G4 tower (very old) and my newer G4 iBook. No problems on either, albeit a little laggy on the tower.

I doubt you'd run into any problems with the Logic.

[BSHARP]

A friend of mine was running a G4 with Logic 7 and BFD. With all the various plug-ins and effects running the G4 was bogging down. He just upgraded to the G5 dual processor.

[MagnumSSS]

Hmmmm.....two different experiences. How many tracks/effects do you guys use? Do you use the Freeze Track function?

Mag

[eugewong]

my tower is G4 400mhz, 512mg Ram. so that's pretty slow

ibook is Gz 1.33ghz, 1.2mb RAM, no problems so far... but i normally work off my tower.

the tower isn't bulletproof...so far the furthest i've pushed it is about 26-27 tracks..roughly an EQ an a comp/limiter on each track and a couple of reverbs. I can overload it, it'll tell me the cpu is too slow or something, so i take a little care not to let that happen.

I just bought a UAD-1 card to take some pressure off the cpu.

And yes...the first chance i get, i'll get a dual G5 too.... but i don't have that kind of coin lying around.

[eugewong]

i failed to mention that i DON'T use Space Designer.

that single plug can overload my processor.

also, that i use a MOTU 828mkII via firewire with both my macs...which might explain why i can still function, i remember reading somewhere that the 828MkII has a dsp chip in it that helps with some of the audio, so some processing is taken off the CPU. I'm not so sure about this, but i'm not complaining...

[MagnumSSS]

Why would one need to run BFD if Logic has a great drum machine built in? why not just get more sampled drums/kits to use with Logic?

[Orren]

Originally posted by MagnumSSS
Why would one need to run BFD if Logic has a great drum machine built in?

Different beasts.

BFD is just a drum sample playback module, but it allows for unprecidented tone shaping, mic placement emulation, and so on. It offers an amazing variety of ways to shape the sample.

UltraBeat in Logic is an amazingly deep and rich drum synthesizer. It allows you to take the output of an oscillator and shape it into an electronic drum sound. It gives you amazing options for modulations, filters, and envelopes to modify your sound. While it is capable of sample playback, it doesn't really offer you any real "sample shaping" other than to run it through it's filters and processing.

So if you want an acoustic drum module, BFD is currently king of the hill. If you want to program electronic drums yourself, UltraBeat is as deep as you can get.

Orren

[MagnumSSS]

Orren, that's good insight. I definitely fall into the acoustic drum world as I want to make real life drum patterns in the styles of jazz/rock/funk/reggae/country/etc. Seems like BFD is better for me then.

Isn't BFD a RAM based application? If I have 1 Gig of RAM, should that suffice?

[MagnumSSS]

I found this on FXPansion's website. It gives tips on optmizing your Mac (pre G5) for using BFD: http://www.fxpansion.com/support-main.php?supopt=supfaq&n=bfd#115

[Denyle_Guitars]

Originally posted by MagnumSSS

Isn't BFD a RAM based application? If I have 1 Gig of RAM, should that suffice?

I was reading about BFD earlier today and notice some users upgraded to 4gb or more to keep the samples from being truncated.

[MagnumSSS]

That's just crazy in my opinion. There must be an easier way to do drum machine work. Ummmm.....Band in a Box maybe? With high quality samples?

[mike@switchback]

BFD will run on a gig. I have run it with only 768MB of RAM. You may have to compromise a bit though - use 16 bit mode, bounce early and often, etc.

[MagnumSSS]

I feel like contacting Fxpansion, but I'm not sure if I'll get a straight answer about BFD's performance on a Mac.....

So, BFD aside.......I still need a great drum machine for doing NON-electronica stuff. I'm saving up $ for software right now, and am planning on using Logic. Orren, when you say Ultrbeat is focused more toward electronic beats, is this becuase it's primary features are modulation/sonic shaping and lacks the mic placement/kits of BFD?

I guess a better question would be, if one were to NOT go with BFD, what would one recommend for a OS X platform in regards to a software drum Machine? Reason?

[Orren]

Originally posted by splatt
pls note that i LOVE bfd:
but..... over last summer (june-sept '04), i tried to run bfd on a dual 1.x g4 that was loaded w/ram, on panther --- bfd would *not* play nice.

That sounds about right. I got one of the very first review copies of BFD ever shipped to the USA, and I couldn't really get it happening on my G4. When I spoke to Angus at FXPansion about it, his advice was to load it in my PC. "You can run it on a G4," he said, "but you really won't be happy unless you have a G5." (I didn't have my G5 at that point).

i had tech support from the company, a fulltime (extremely savvy) technical assistant on the case, and the tech staff at media ventures/remote control -(hans zimmer's very, very, very able crew)- paying daily attention to bfd's insoluble irregularities.
so, at that time (g4-time, i mean), the consensus was "get it on its own pc, and stream it back into PT/Logic":
it worked like a charm, after much pain and degradation.
just my experience, at that time; hopefully, times have changed for bfd/mac.


That is very solid advice. The current version of BFD (1.0.10.15) is very much more stable and optimized for the Mac than the original version, but this still requires a lot of CPU and RAM to really play nice with others. It plays nice with Logic on my machine...but I have a dual G5/2.0Ghz w/2.5GB RAM.

Orren

[Orren]

Originally posted by Denyle_Guitars
I was reading about BFD earlier today and notice some users upgraded to 4gb or more to keep the samples from being truncated.

Under Mac OS X 10.3 Panther, that's kind of overkill.

In Panther, no application can access more than 2GB RAM. When running BFD as a plug-in inside a host application, it has to access RAM from within that host application's partition--which is maximum 2GB. Now, if you have 4GB in your G5, that means the host gets 2GB, and the Finder/other applications get 2GB. But beyond that, you are not benefiting either the host application, or even the Finder.

I guess if someone wants to run Photoshop, Quark Xpress, and other applications that require very large amounts of RAM at the same time an audio sequencer is running, they might want 2GB for the audio program, 2GB for the Finder, and 2GB for the other applications. But I have a hard time imagining how anyone can be doing both serious audio recording and desktop publishing simultaneously...

Orren

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by splatt
good understatement, O!
love that bfd, for all its greedy cpu-munching.

fwiw, y'all, if ye develop supa-GAS for bfd:
buy a cheap PC, and run bfd's playback engine (via a vst-shell) from it; all yer midi on the mac, and the pc as a secondary playback engine.
methinks the bfd sw is very well-optimised for the pc.
dt / spltrcl
No issues on PC...as a rewire divice with covalution plugs as well! :)

[eugewong]

If money is an issue, Logic has a couple more ways that you can have your drums...

The logic sampler has drums in there, although they aren't VERY good...

Also, with osX and Logic 7, you have access to :-

1) Apple Loops, which are a great tool for writing/practicing, just fooling around, but definitely has it's professional possibilities.
2) Garage Band instruments, which include about 6-7 GBand Drum kits. Some of which are really very useable.

So, i guess i'm trying to say that right off the bat, without much extra software investment, you do already have a bunch of very useable drum sounds at your disposal.

[mike@switchback]

Originally posted by splatt
not meaning to be argumentative, here, and:
pls note that i LOVE bfd:
but..... over last summer (june-sept '04), i tried to run bfd on a dual 1.x g4 that was loaded w/ram, on panther --- bfd would *not* play nice. i had tech support from the company, a fulltime (extremely savvy) technical assistant on the case, and the tech staff at media ventures/remote control -(hans zimmer's very, very, very able crew)- paying daily attention to bfd's insoluble irregularities.
so, at that time (g4-time, i mean), the consensus was "get it on its own pc, and stream it back into PT/Logic":
it worked like a charm, after much pain and degradation.
just my experience, at that time; hopefully, times have changed for bfd/mac.
it SHOULD function cleanly and not require "bounce-outs" or any other limiting workarounds, if its meant to be a working creative tool and not a supa-nifty distraction.
dt / spltrcl

No, that's totally cool - just sharing experiences. I am by no means a BFD apologist either, I'm just sharing my experiences and trying to be realistic about it. I have a very modest machine - 1.33Ghz 12" Powerbook, 768MB RAM. BFD WILL run on it (talking about current version, I have no experience with it other than very recent) and you can make drum tracks. Like I said you just have to compromise a bit....IMO, it's not to much to ask to have to bounce tracks occasionally. Especially if you're working on a laptop, like the original poster, then you'd better get used to compromising, I think. What's the alternative? What if you're working with a real drummer and change the drum part? You're either going to be doing some very tricky editing, or recording another take, right?

Other options that maybe haven't been mentioned yet:

- Battery with a good set of acoustic drum samples
- Drumcore
- Drums on Demand
- a free soundfont player with the nskit soundfont
- Apple loops
- toontrack has a new DFH set coming out that is acoustic/vintage

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by splatt
in that kinda situation, 'almost works' does NOT work for me, ya know?

I'm not in that situation (not that I would mind), but "almost works" software drives me insane even without anyone breathing down my neck. My time is worth something, ya know? I hate wrestling with sh*t that's supposed to make my life easier.

I'm going to look into what the top demo studios in Nashville do. They turn out some damned nice near-master quality demos without live drummers, and they do it very fast. Granted, the drum parts are very run-of-the-mill, but they sound terrific. Often the best-sounding part of the demos from an audio standpoint.

Looking into that may require some undercover work. Splatt, if I die, you can have my Elvin Jones drumsticks.

[mike@switchback]

Originally posted by splatt

in that kinda situation, 'almost works' does NOT work for me, ya know?
dt / spltrcl

I'll have to take your word on that, as would most of us who will never get the chance to work in such a situation!! :)

The original poster just bought a Powerbook, is saving up for Logic, and is using an entry-level interface. Maybe your requirements, valid as they may be for you, are a bit overkill for him? :)

Beating a dead horse here, but I never said it "almost works" - I said it works, as long as you are willing to compromise. And by compromise, I mean work within the limitations of your hardware. But that's true of all software. BFD has never crashed on me. Am I really pushing it? Hell no, but neither will the original poster, judging by his posts so far.

What really stinks is that, because of the nature of the beast (multi-gigabyte libraries) - BFD, DFHS, et al, aren't available in demo versions.

[MagnumSSS]

ratter,

thanks for the attention. I was starting to think that maybe I should just stick with Garageband, get some more Apple loops and master that first. Yeah, I just want to start getting songs down that I've been working on, and it will be less expensive, although not as powerful. Maybe by the time I really bursting out for the big leap, the drum machine software will be more advanced and easier to use.

MichaelK,

I am interested in hearing what you find out about how those Nashville Studios do it. That's exactly the road I'm heading down.

Mag

[mike@switchback]

Originally posted by MagnumSSS
ratter,

thanks for the attention. I was starting to think that maybe I should just stick with Garageband, get some more Apple loops and master that first. Yeah, I just want to start getting songs down that I've been working on, and it will be less expensive, although not as powerful. Maybe by the time I really bursting out for the big leap, the drum machine software will be more advanced and easier to use.

MichaelK,

I am interested in hearing what you find out about how those Nashville Studios do it. That's exactly the road I'm heading down.

Mag

There's lots of fun to be had with GB and the apple loops. Especially with GB2. You should definitely check it out!

[mike@switchback]

Originally posted by splatt
yeah, i unerstand, but..... one might note that i didn't 'get the chance'; i made that chance available, after many, many yrs of slogging in order to..... work!
*-)

Duly noted! Poor choice of words on my part. :)

[mike@switchback]

Ooh...Battery actually is available as a demo.

http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?battery_us

Link is on the left-hand side of the page. Great software, and unlike BFD, you can use any damn drum samples that you want with it!

[MichaelK]

>> I am interested in hearing what you find out about how those Nashville Studios do it. That's exactly the road I'm heading down.

I suspect they just have a bunch of proprietary audio loops, as the beats are so "standard" that no creative programming seems necessary. But I'll try to find out and let you know. They don't like to spill too much about exactly how they do what they do, what with so many people making their own demos these days.

splatt, check your email. :)

[Bassomatic]

Splatt-

While on a side street of 'almost working' software - im wondering if you've experienced any flakiness with Phatmatik? Not crashes, but things not always working quite like they're supposed to? It's been a month or so since i've run the program, but it seems i was having some flakiness around transposition and loop behavior.

Maybe just PC related?