Fake Cliff jacks

[Brian Wallace]

Interesting info on fake Cliff jacks being sold in the US.

http://forum.marstran.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=291

[Trout]

Interesting info on fake Cliff jacks being sold in the US.

http://forum.marstran.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=291


In what way are they " Fake "

Both companies are named " Cliff ", just because one was originally used by UK amp companies does not make the other fake, just different.

I know for sure CE/AES has been selling the CliffUSA for a pretty long time and they work and fit just like the UK part.

They(CliffUSA) also carries a full lineup of other amps & gear related items.

Both companies websites are registered in the UK.
Domain name:
cliffuk.co.uk

Registrant:
Cliff Electronic Components Ltd

Registrant type:
UK Limited Company, (Company number: 1332056)

Registrant's address:
76 Holmethorpe Avenue
Redhill
Surrey
RH1 2PF
United KingdomRegistrant:
Andrew Brunt
32 Newton Willows
Groombridge
Kent
TN3 9RP
GB
phone: +44.1892862353
http://source.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=0fd24d3f5d8e4df9a210d8aff3f08de2&face=arial&size=9&color=000000&bgcolor=FFFFFF&face=arial&size=9&color=0000FF&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format[]=underline&format[]=transparent&format[]=transparent (http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?email=0fd24d3f5d8e4df9a210d8aff3f08de2)

Domain Name: cliffusa.com

Administrative Contact:
Stuart Still (NM00001-TR)
Sussex Internet Ltd
Unit 35
Cradle Hill Industrial Estate
Seaford
East Sussex
BN25 3JE
GB
phone: +44.1323898811

[Brian Wallace]

I would read the info on the UK Cliff site about what they consider fake first.

Next, I guess your saying that it would be OK to have a company in any part of the world to start making whatever they please as long as they just call their company by the same name as the part they are copying. Korg can just stop being a distributor now and change their name to Marshall.

[Trout]

Looks like a case of he said she said.

From CliffUSA

http://www.cliffusa.com/about-us.asp

In the lawsuit response it appears that Cliff USA actually owns the name.

Latest News

FAULTY JACK SOCKETS


29/03/2010

FAULTY JACK SOCKETS
A quality issue associated with some 1/4" jack sockets being supplied by a company in the UK with a similar name to ours has recently been brought to our attention.
The problem of which we have been advised, concerns loose metal contacts, causing the jack socket to fail.
Upon inspection, it appears that the problem is due to an assembly defect.
We would like to reassure all of our customers that these faulty jack sockets were not manufactured by us, nor do we have any association with their source.
Please do not hesitate to contact sales@cliffusa should you require further clarification on this matter


Cliff USA counterfeiting dispute with Cliff UK - LATEST


27/12/2009

CLIFF USA versus CLIFF UK ..... It has previously come to our attention that a company known as "Cliff UK" has sent a number of letters to CLIFF USA's customers and suppliers, containing allegations of counterfeiting of goods and designs.
These claims are not only false, they are also defamatory: additionally, they are the subject of on-going legal processes in the USA.
We would like to assure you that everything possible is being done to resolve these issues.
If you would like to read the statement issued by our lawyers earlier in 2009,
please go to the "About Cliff " page, and then "Cliff USA v 'Cliff UK' counterfeiting dispute ... latest news: view and download PDF"

[big mike]

It is NOT he said she said.

I cannot elaborate because Frankly, I do not want to be involved in it.
but suffice to say, Cliff USA jacks are NOT made in UK any longer.
Nothing they distribute is.

Cliff UK owns all the tooling, machinery, etc. from the original Cliff Plastics plant.
And in fact, still produces product, but in Redhill Surrey.

If you're looking for the original S4 Cliff UK jacks, it will SAY CLIFF UK on the bottom.
The others are all Chinese of varying quality depending upon which Cliff entity is producing them.

[Bruce Clement]

Wow, this sucks. I do not like the look of whatever it is that AES/CE is now selling as Cliff UK. The chrome part looks different, not a nice smooth spherical shape, kind of sunken looking. I am looking at other options, but I am going to try to find a source for Cliff UK jacks.

[Ken Moon]

I am going to try to find a source for Cliff UK jacks.

Here's one possibility - they have a $20 handling fee per order, but you will be sure to get the Cliff UK ones.

http://www.newark.com/cliff-electronic-components/s4bnb/socket-1-4-jack-switched-2pole/dp/08WX2606?Ntt=s4/bnb

[Trout]

Wow, this sucks. I do not like the look of whatever it is that AES/CE is now selling as Cliff UK. The chrome part looks different, not a nice smooth spherical shape, kind of sunken looking. I am looking at other options, but I am going to try to find a source for Cliff UK jacks.


I'll try to post side by side 3 view closeup pictures because actually, the nut shape has not changed, still shiny, identical washers, and same thickness and finish on the solder lugs.

The bodies are very slightly different, the Cliffusa ones have a different texture/finish on the underside, but are also thicker in a couple places.
The AES ones are just fine, I have used loads of both.

They have been selling these for at least 4-6 months now, most people never noticed the change.

[big mike]

Sales@cliffinc.com

Bruce should be able to tell you where to get the uk ones.

I am not affiliated.

[big mike]

The Chinese are likely decent but they are not the original or real cliff jacks.

That's all I'm sayin.

[Bruce Clement]

I'll post here what I just posted on the LP Forum (http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167800)

I just talked to Bruce at the US distributor for Cliff UK. What many of you posted above is correct. As I understand it, the previous US distributor for Cliff UK broke away in 2006 or 2008 (it was a complicated story!) and is having knock-offs made in Asia, and using the Cliff name. Cliff UK is sueing that guy. There were never any Cliff USA jacks, only Cliff UK and the knock-offs. CE is currently not buying from Cliff UK, and are selling the knock-offs. They were wrong when they told me they were Cliff UK.

You can buy the Cliff UK jacks from the US distributor (cliffinc.com) in lots of 100.

[Prairie Dawg]

I'll post here what I just posted on the LP Forum (http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167800)

I just talked to Bruce at the US distributor for Cliff UK. What many of you posted above is correct. As I understand it, the previous US distributor for Cliff UK broke away in 2006 or 2008 (it was a complicated story!) and is having knock-offs made in Asia, and using the Cliff name. Cliff UK is sueing that guy. There were never any Cliff USA jacks, only Cliff UK and the knock-offs. CE is currently not buying from Cliff UK, and are selling the knock-offs. They were wrong when they told me they were Cliff UK.

You can buy the Cliff UK jacks from the US distributor (cliffinc.com) in lots of 100.

This entire stinking mess is headed for federal court and not likely to be resolved anytime soon.

What you see in a petition and an answer is the equivalent of TV wrestling. You can't have much faith that there's more than a bunch of allegations intended to scare the other side into confessing judgment.

Here's what we've got so far.

Case Number: 08C 001820

Plaintiff:CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD,,, (http://www.shawneecourt.org/doe/search.jsp?last=CLIFF+ELECTRONIC+COMPONENTS+LTD&first=,&ALL=Y&close=&location=internet) Attorney:ENGEL,CHARLES,T, Defendant:CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC,,, (http://www.shawneecourt.org/doe/search.jsp?last=CLIFF+ELECTRONIC+COMPONENTS+INC&first=&ALL=Y&close=&location=internet) Attorney:RAIMOND,RICHARD,J, Division:07 Next Activity:CMOE on 12/03/2010 at 1:30 PM Nature of Case:PETITION FOR JUDGMENT12/04/2008-Petition filed on 12/04/08 12/05/2008-$156.00 recd from ENGEL & GEIER PA,,, (156.00 CV Docket Fee) 12/05/2008-Summons issued personal service as to CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC issued to special process server. 12/05/2008-Summons issued personal service as to ANDREW BRUNT PRESIDENT issued to special process server. 12/11/2008-Summons returned, residence service, left with Agent/Officer - as to CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC 12/11/08 . Return filed by fax. . 12/30/2008-#1 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO ANSWER OR OTHERWISE PLEAD TO PLAINTIFF'S PETITION (ALSO FOR ANDREW BRUNT) 12/30/2008-ORDER: Case assigned to Div. 7 civil docket for March 6, 2009, 1:30 p.m. for setting or dismissal. FRT 12/31/2008-SET - Hold for assignment on 03/06/09 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 12/31/2008-LETTER FROM JUDGE FRANKLIN R THEIS TO JASON E GEIER DATED 12/30/08. 01/09/2009-Ruling on motion# 1 Sustained. FRT 01/12/2009-PRAECIPE FOR SUMMONS FILED BY JASON E GEIER 01/12/2009-ORDER GRANTING DEFENDANTS'MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO ANSWER OR OTHERWISE PLEAD TO PLAINTIFFS' PETITION FILED. 01/09/09. FRT. 01/12/2009-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE FRANKLIN R THEIS DATED 12/30/08. 01/13/2009-Alias Summons issued personal service as to ANDREW BRUNT PRESIDENT issued to special process server. 01/14/2009-AMENDED PETITION FILED BY JASON E GEIER 01/14/2009-PRAECIPE FOR SUMMONS FILED BY JASON E GEIER 01/14/2009-Amended Alias Summons issued personal service as to ANDREW BRUNT issued to special process server. 01/21/2009-PRAECIPE FOR SUMMONS FILED BY JASON E GEIER 01/22/2009-Amended Alias Summons issued personal service as to CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC issued to special process server. 01/22/2009-Summons returned personal service requested, no service - as to ANDREW BRUNT 01/22/09 . 01/26/2009-Amended Alias Summons returned, personal service - as to ANDREW BRUNT 01/17/09 . Return filed by fax. . 01/26/2009-Amended Alias Summons returned, residence service, left with Agent/Officer - as to CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC 01/23/09 . Return filed by fax. . 01/26/2009-Affidavit of JOSHUA M SOLBERG filed. 01/26/2009-Filed by Fax 02/13/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 02/13/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 02/13/2009-Answer AND COUNTERCLAIMS filed. Answering DEFENDANT CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC. Answering attorney RICHARD J RAIMOND. 02/13/2009-Answer AND COUNTERCLAIM filed. Answering DEFENDANT ANDREW BRUNT. Answering attorney RICHARD J RAIMOND. 03/02/2009-ORDER: Case reset HFA to 5/1/09 at 1:30 p.m. for Plaintiff to respond to counterclaim & file CMO. FRT 03/09/2009-SET - Hold for assignment on 05/01/09 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 03/09/2009-Answer TO COUNTERCLAIMS OF CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS,INC filed. Answering PLAINTIFF CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD. Answering attorney JASON E GEIER. 03/09/2009-Answer TO COUNTERCLAIMS OF DEFENDANT ANDREW BRUNT filed. Answering PLAINTIFF CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD. Answering attorney JASON E GEIER. 03/20/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY REQUESTS FILED BY JASON E GEIER. 03/20/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY REQUESTS FILED BY JASON E GEIER. (DIRECTED TO DEFENDANT CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC) 04/08/2009-ENTRY OF APPEARANCE FILED BY CHARLES T ENGEL ON BEHALF OF CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD. 04/23/2009-#2 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC AGREED MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO CONTINUE PRETRIAL AND DISCOVERY 04/24/2009-WITHDRAWAL OF COUNSEL FILED BY JASON E GEIER. 04/28/2009-Ruling on motion# 2 ORDER: Sustained. FRT 04/28/2009-ORDER: Case reset HFA to 7/10/09 at 1:30 p.m. FRT 04/29/2009-AGREED ORDER CONTINUING PRETRIAL CONFERENCE AND DISCOVERY FILED. 04/28/09 FRT 04/29/2009-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE THEIS DATED 04/23/09. 05/22/2009-DEFENDANT ANDREW BRUNT'S REQUEST FOR STATEMENT OF MONETARY DAMAGES TO PLAINTIFF FILED BY WAYNE T STRATTON. 05/22/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY RESPONSES FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 05/22/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY RESPONSES FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 05/22/2009-DEFENDANT CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC'S REQUEST FOR STATEMENT OF MONETARY DAMAGES TO PLAINTIFF FILED BY WAYNE T STRATTON. 06/03/2009-NOTICE OF INTENT TO ISSUE BUSINESS RECORD SUBPOENA WITH ATTACHED PROPOSED SUBPOENA OF AT&T/BELLSOUTH TELECOMMUNICATIONS INC FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 06/15/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND 06/18/2009-NOTICE OF REQUEST OF BUSINESS RECORDS SUBPOENA FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND AS TO AT&T/BELLSOUTH TELECOMMUNICATIONS INC. 06/19/2009-Subpoena Duces Tecum issued personal service returnable 07/03/09 04:30P.M. as to AT&T/BELLSOUTH TELECOMMUNICATIONS INC issued to special process server. 06/24/2009-LETTER FROM LINDA MCBRIDE TO RICHARD J RAIMOND DATED 06/23/09 FILED. 06/24/2009-NOTICE OF INTENT TO ISSUE BUSINESS RECORD SUBPOENA WITH ATTACHED PROPOSED SUBPOENA OF AT&T/BELLSOUTH TELECOMMUNICATIONS INC FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 06/25/2009-SET - Hold for assignment on 07/10/09 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 07/07/2009-Praecipe for Subpoena/Subpoena Duces Tecum filed by RICHARD J RAIMOND. 07/15/2009-Subpoena - Business Records issued personal service returnable 07/30/09 10:00A.M. as to AT&T CORP issued to special process server. 07/22/2009-Subpoena - Business Records sent return receipt delivery, signee unknown - as to AT&T CORP 07/16/09 . 08/07/2009-#3 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC & ANDREW BRUNT. MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER 08/07/2009-#4 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC & ANDREW BRUNT. MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY AND FOR SANCTIONS. 08/10/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF DISCOVERY RESPONSES FILED BY CHARLES T ENGEL. 08/10/2009-Filed by Fax 08/20/2009-#5 Motion filed and entered by CHARLES T ENGEL for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME FOR PLAINTIFF TO RESPOND TO DEFENDANTS' MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER. 08/20/2009-Filed by Fax 08/21/2009-PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY AND SANCTIONS FILED BY JASON C ROBBINS. 08/21/2009-Filed by Fax 08/21/2009-Ruling on motion# 5 Moot due to filing of response on 8/21/10. FRT 08/25/2009-REPLY TO PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY AND FOR SANCTIONS FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 08/25/2009-OBJECTION TO PLAINTIFF'S MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO RESPOND TO DEFENDANTS' MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER FILED BY RICHARD J RAIMOND. 08/31/2009-#6 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC & ANDREW BRUNT. MOTION TO COMPEL PRODUCTION AND ENFORCE SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM. 09/11/2009-NOTICE OF SERVICE OF SUPPLEMENTAL DISCOVERY RESPONSES FILED BY JASON C ROBBINS. 09/11/2009-Filed by Fax 09/11/2009-Notice to Take Deposition of ROBERT TAYLOR filed by RICHARD J RAIMOND. 09/21/2009-Notice to Take Deposition of ANDREW BRUNT filed by CHARLES T ENGEL. 09/21/2009-Filed by Fax 09/23/2009-SET - Telephone Conference on 09/25/09 at 01:30PM. in division 07. 09/23/2009-Ruling on motion# 6 Sustained. FRT 09/24/2009-ORDER GRANTING DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO COMPEL PRODUCTION AND ENFORCE SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM 09/23/09 FRT 09/24/2009-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE THEIS DATED 09/15/09. 09/25/2009-MOTION: (Hastings) Plaintif by C. Engel. Defendants by W. Stratton & R. Raimond. Ct. finds protective order should be entered. Discovery discussed & resolved. No sanctions warranted. Case reset HFA 11/6/09 at 1:30 p.m. pending CMO. FRT 09/25/2009-SET - Hold for assignment on 11/06/09 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 09/25/2009-PROTECTIVE ORDER FILED. 09/25/09 FRT 09/25/2009-Ruling on motion# 6 Resolved per hearing of 9/25/09. FRT 09/25/2009-Ruling on motion# 4 Resolved per hearing of 9/25/09. FRT 09/25/2009-Ruling on motion# 3 Sustained. FRT 09/25/2009-Ruling on motion# 6 Sustained. FRT 10/05/2009-#7 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC MOTION FOR LEAVE TO AMEND ANSWER AND COUTNERCLAIMS 10/22/2009-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE DATED 10/05/09. 10/22/2009-ORDER PREMITTING DEFENDANT CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC TO FILE AMENDED ANSWER AND COUNTERCLAIMS 102209 FRT 10/22/2009-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE DATED 10/16/09. 10/22/2009-Ruling on motion# 7 Sustained. FRT 10/26/2009-Answer AMENDED filed. Answering DEFT CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS INC. Answering attorney RICHARD J RAIMOND. (AND COUNTERCLAIMS) 10/30/2009-Answer filed. Answering PLTF CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD. Answering attorney CHARLES T ENGEL, to Counterclaims of Cliff Electronic Components Inc Filed by FAX 11/09/2009-ORDER: Case reset HFA to 1/8/10 at 1:30 p.m. for settlement negotiations. FRT 11/13/2009-SET - Hold for assignment on 01/08/10 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 12/21/2009-LETTER FROM WAYNE STRATTON TO JUDGE DATED 12/14/09. 12/21/2009-Order on Defendants' Motion to COmpel and Motion for Protective Order FRT 01/28/2010-ORDR: Case reset HFA to 3/5/10 at 1:30 p.m. for continued settlement negotiations. FRT 02/01/2010-SET - Hold for assignment on 03/05/10 at 01:30Pfor in division 07. 02/08/2010-Motion filed by CHARLES T ENGEL for CLIFF ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS LTD to appoint JOHN C HILTON Pro Hac Vice. 02/08/2010-$100.00 recd from ENGEL,CHARLES,T, (100.00 CV Bar Discipline Fe) 02/11/2010-Ruling on motion# 8 Sustained. FRT 02/11/2010-Order Admitting Attorney (John C Hilton) to Practice Pro Hac Vice 021110 FRT 04/12/2010-Plaintiff's Statement of Damages filed by Charles T Engel 04/12/2010-Filed by Fax 04/13/2010-Notice of Service of Supplemental Discovery Responses filed by Charles T Engel Filed by FAX 04/22/2010-Case Management Order filed FRT 04/22/2010-LETTER FROM RICHARD J RAIMOND TO JUDGE THEIS DATED 04/22/10. 04/22/2010-ORDER: CMO entered. Set CMOE 12/3/10 at 1:30 p.m. FRT 04/27/2010-SET - Case Management Order Entered on 12/03/10 at 01:30PM. in division 07. No appearance necessary 05/24/2010-#8 Motion filed and entered by RICHARD J RAIMOND for ANDREW BRUNT for Summary Judgment With Memorandum in Support

[Brian Wallace]

If you don't need a 100 jacks I have them for sale for $1.50 each plus shipping.

[big mike]

Being as close to the situation as I have been in the past, I'll say believe me,there's something to it.

[Trout]

I'll post here what I just posted on the LP Forum (http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167800)

I just talked to Bruce at the US distributor for Cliff UK. What many of you posted above is correct. As I understand it, the previous US distributor for Cliff UK broke away in 2006 or 2008 (it was a complicated story!) and is having knock-offs made in Asia, and using the Cliff name. Cliff UK is sueing that guy. There were never any Cliff USA jacks, only Cliff UK and the knock-offs. CE is currently not buying from Cliff UK, and are selling the knock-offs. They were wrong when they told me they were Cliff UK.

You can buy the Cliff UK jacks from the US distributor (cliffinc.com) in lots of 100.

What I found funny was I questioned an employee at CE this past week about the Cliff KO's (knock offs) they are selling and he seemed unaware of the situation. In fact, he asked me to mail them photo's.

CE " was " selling Cliff UK at one time, just not for the past several months.

Who else is currently selling/distributing the KO's though?
I know for certain I have bought no less than 50 From CE before I heard about all of this.

[Brian Wallace]

CE knew enough about it to remove the "UK Made" from their site recently. That speaks volumes to me.

[Prairie Dawg]

CE knew enough about it to remove the "UK Made" from their site recently. That speaks volumes to me.

Y'know, if I need a Cliff's jack, and I don't like what CE sends me, I'll find another one. Otherwise, this is a pissing contest between lawyers and it's certainly not anything to *take up sides* on based on the allegations in a petition and an answer. That is merely the gate dropping-the horses have yet to run.

One thing I do believe and that is anyone who doesn't want to display the entire record is being disingenuous. Pleas for sympathy do not interest me.

Professionally speaking, these people will work something out, they'll both walk away from the table with something and as soon as they get back to the office they'll start complaining that the lawyers screwed them again-when it was their own bloodymindedness that's at fault-that and trying to make too much money without working for it. It 's nearly-not completely, but nearly-as bad as a nasty divorce. That really sucks.

That being said, for the most part it is a tempest in a teapot.

[big mike]

Y'know, if I need a Cliff's jack, and I don't like what CE sends me, I'll find another one. Otherwise, this is a pissing contest between lawyers and it's certainly not anything to *take up sides* on based on the allegations in a petition and an answer. That is merely the gate dropping-the horses have yet to run.

Pretty much the case. The chinese cliff jacks imported by Cliff USA are likely decent, they're just not the same as the UK made jacks. To some that's important, to others not. Knowing what I know of materials, I'd prefer a UK made jack. The Phosphor bronze contacts the chinese jacks use are not a resiliant, but I'm sure they pass the insertion/extraction test to a decent degree.



One thing I do believe and that is anyone who doesn't want to display the entire record is being disingenuous. Pleas for sympathy do not interest me.



I don't see where you are coming from on this. Who's not displaying the entire record, and who's making a plea for sympathy??



Professionally speaking, these people will work something out, they'll both walk away from the table with something and as soon as they get back to the office they'll start complaining that the lawyers screwed them again-when it was their own bloodymindedness that's at fault-that and trying to make too much money without working for it. It 's nearly-not completely, but nearly-as bad as a nasty divorce. That really sucks.

That being said, for the most part it is a tempest in a teapot.

Personally knowing both parties involved, I'm sure there will eventually be SOME sort of resolution, but I also know the determination of both parties of how 'right' they are.

It's pretty simple to me. Cliff USA does not supply an original UK made cliff Jack. For the end user, for the MOST part, it's a non issue really. Hobbyists and small business that go through 20-100 jacks a year don't make much of an impact at all. This is about the major entities, companies such as Marshall, or american companies like Boogie, Ampeg, Peavey, etc.

[Prairie Dawg]

I think I posted a summary of the litigation thus far from the 3rd district court in Kansas. There's a lot of activity, the balance of which is written and transcribed

Professionally speaking, posting a copy of the answer to a petition without any reference to the mountain of other information necessary to an understanding of matters thus far is not posting the whole record. It leaves the impression that someone's hiding something. It's selective filtering of facts, and litigants and defendants do this all the time.

Things will be better if we let the market sort this out. It is the best judge of what's a good product at a good price and what isn't.

Don't think the people who buy thousands of these products-Marshall, Fender, Line 6 and everyone else are being fooled, either.

It's about price. Only about price.

A little diversion. You may see the connection.

http://cornponepapers.blogspot.com/2007/07/broken-promises-in-heartland-adams.html

[big mike]

It's about price. Only about price.


Always has been.

[Brian Wallace]

Marshall had just ordered another 10K units from Cliff UK when I spoke with Bruce. For the record by the way, Cliff US (Kansas) never replied to me while Cliff UK and Cliff UK USA both replied to my inquire about this situation.

I think I posted a summary of the litigation thus far from the 3rd district court in Kansas.

This just happens to be where Cliff US is located by the way. I feel the end result will be that Cliff US will still sell jacks but without the Cliff name and this will leave CE with a Cliffless jack.

[big mike]

Marshall had just ordered another 10K units from Cliff UK when I spoke with Bruce. For the record by the way, Cliff US (Kansas) never replied to me while Cliff UK and Cliff UK USA both replied to my inquire about this situation.



This just happens to be where Cliff US is located by the way. I feel the end result will be that Cliff US will still sell jacks but without the Cliff name and this will leave CE with a Cliffless jack.

I doubt you'll get an answer.

[Brian Wallace]

I'm not holding my breath. ;)

[Prairie Dawg]

Marshall had just ordered another 10K units from Cliff UK when I spoke with Bruce. For the record by the way, Cliff US (Kansas) never replied to me while Cliff UK and Cliff UK USA both replied to my inquire about this situation.



This just happens to be where Cliff US is located by the way. I feel the end result will be that Cliff US will still sell jacks but without the Cliff name and this will leave CE with a Cliffless jack.

It's quite likely that the reason they ordered from the UK people was just in time delivery to the Marshall plant. They're local. However, reading between the lines, are they an exclusive supplier? Or do those Korean/Indian Marshalls have stuff that's made in their own neighborhood?

Of course. That's where jurisdiction is. It is an extensive, hard fought pissing contest being billed against both clients at $300 per hour. Picture an associate riding in an elevator thinking "I wonder what's up with Cliff's today. Maybe beat it for another hour or two while nobody's looking."

What eventually brings the parties to the table is being bled white by the civil attorneys-not the relative merits of the situation.

Here's what I think would happen if it went all the way to trial and judgment, and there was no truth at all in anything the people in Kansas have alleged (which, of course, we do not know anything about until someone pays to put the record up on a site somewhere).

Nothing much. No victory parade that I can see. As you say, the jacks might stop saying Cliffs but they'll still be sold at a price, and in the end the result will be not much different.

A lot of money will have been spent for nothing.

All of which explains in some measure why I'd rather fix amps than the other thing.

[Cusack Effects]

I've been dealing with this issue for 2 years probably. It'staken me a long time to figure out who's who. At this point, here's where I stand:

I want an original "Cliff UK" Jack. I don't care about price, and don't care about lawsuits. I've been using the Cliff UK jack from day one, because when I repaired amps, the Cliff Jack was the jack I replaced the least. The only issue I ever had with them is the switch, which only is an issue with effects loops, etc. I don't remember ever replacing one because they failed to make contact in in Input or Output jack position.

I received samples of the china jack, and while they seem OK, it's not worth it for me to take a chance on unknown plating.

There are so many sides to this, it's confusing. But I don't care who owns the name, I care who owns the injection mold, and plating process. And I want a jack made in the UK. It's not worth a few pennies savings if I have quality problems. Even at 10K/yr, a penny a jack is only a savings of $100 a year.

Jon Cusack

[Trout]

I dunno,

I have been using the so called " Fakes " for 2-3 months, and I have not had any issues with them. I still feel they are a good step up over Neutrik Jacks.
I had plenty of problems with those falling apart.

I do remember having a few problems about 6 months ago with the Cliff UKs not locking onto the plug properly, but that seemed like it was isolated to a single batch I had gotten.

I like to one stop shop whenever possible so I just grab whats in stock a good bit of the time.

[big mike]

Okay so
say I used to work for chevrolet
They hired me and funded me to have Chevrolet Guam
selling their products
I decide to make a copy of it in Taiwan and still label it Chevrolet
As Long as it's cheaper and decent you think that's acceptable?

Just sayin

[Bruce Clement]

...For the end user, for the MOST part, it's a non issue really. Hobbyists and small business that go through 20-100 jacks a year don't make much of an impact at all. This is about the major entities, companies such as Marshall, or american companies like Boogie, Ampeg, Peavey, etc.

Well put me in the same category as the "big boys" because it is an issue to me, for two reasons: I must have high quality parts, and the knock-offs just don't look right.

Regarding the law suit, it's a shame that it takes so much effort and time to stop someone from ripping you off... I pray this never happens to me, or any of us.

[VacuumVoodoo]

You can buy from Cliff UK directly. Their MOQs are very reasonable and they are very customer oriented. Never had a problem ordering direct.

[Trout]

Well put me in the same category as the "big boys" because it is an issue to me, for two reasons: I must have high quality parts, and the knock-offs just don't look right.

Regarding the law suit, it's a shame that it takes so much effort and time to stop someone from ripping you off... I pray this never happens to me, or any of us.

How do they not " Look Right " I have both here and the physical differences other than the name on the bottom are nill. I look at the actual plastic molded parts and they are equal or better.

Now as for the metal parts, I do not have a way to determine the actual metallurgy of the finish or base material. But from a functionality standpoint its a draw in my book.

If they end up changing their name to Clifford, Cjacks or BillyBobJack it makes no difference to me, a good jack is a good jack.
If they are more available Bonus.
If I was doing a vintage restoration I would hold out for the UK version, but otherwise it matters not.

[Cusack Effects]

The problem is using them for a few months without issues is not enough. Plating is something that effects the life of the part. It's not something that has a few month fallout. What COULD happen is in several years you find that all the products you built with that jack start to have contact issues. If you are Crate, Fender, Marshall, then fine, it's past the warranty period. If you are like me, and build a product to last forever, then there is no "good enough". I want to use good parts that I KNOW will still have good plating on them ten years from now.

Of course you could do accelerated life testing on the plating, and see how it holds up, but that takes time and money. Much more money than what I would saving buying the Chinese parts.

Also, we are already handing our jobs to China everyday. For a few pennies, we can keep those jobs in the UK. I know we need to buy things from China, there is no way around it, but we don't have to buy EVERYTHING from china, because it saves us a few hundred dollars a year.

If you knew for sure that the Chinese jacks would fail in ten years, and the Cliffs would not, and you saved .05 per jack (.10 savings on a guitar pedal), would you do it? Would it be worth it? I don't care if I built 10K pedals a year. In 10 years I would have saved $10K total. Great, but what about all the customers who have to have thier jakcs replaced? Now do the same math at the lower boutique level, how much money can you really save?

As for the Neutrik, we switched our "vintage" style over to those over a year ago, when neither could even get me parts, because of this whole ordeal. I have been VERY happy with those. The only issue I have had is that they just changed the tooling on the nut, and the male thread is slightly larger than it used to be. As a result, we had to re-drill over 1000 holes last month. Anybody else see this issue?

[Trout]

The problem is using them for a few months without issues is not enough. Plating is something that effects the life of the part. It's not something that has a few month fallout. What COULD happen is in several years you find that all the products you built with that jack start to have contact issues. If you are Crate, Fender, Marshall, then fine, it's past the warranty period. If you are like me, and build a product to last forever, then there is no "good enough". I want to use good parts that I KNOW will still have good plating on them ten years from now.

Of course you could do accelerated life testing on the plating, and see how it holds up, but that takes time and money. Much more money than what I would saving buying the Chinese parts.

Also, we are already handing our jobs to China everyday. For a few pennies, we can keep those jobs in the UK. I know we need to buy things from China, there is no way around it, but we don't have to buy EVERYTHING from china, because it saves us a few hundred dollars a year.

If you knew for sure that the Chinese jacks would fail in ten years, and the Cliffs would not, and you saved .05 per jack (.10 savings on a guitar pedal), would you do it? Would it be worth it? I don't care if I built 10K pedals a year. In 10 years I would have saved $10K total. Great, but what about all the customers who have to have thier jakcs replaced? Now do the same math at the lower boutique level, how much money can you really save?

As for the Neutrik, we switched our "vintage" style over to those over a year ago, when neither could even get me parts, because of this whole ordeal. I have been VERY happy with those. The only issue I have had is that they just changed the tooling on the nut, and the male thread is slightly larger than it used to be. As a result, we had to re-drill over 1000 holes last month. Anybody else see this issue?


The problem I had with the Neutrik's was the actual plastic body was especially vulnerable to heat from soldering. I had used loads of Cliff UK's without issue, Bought Neutriks (because of a supplier issue) and the contact parts would get really loose in the plastic body from soldering. No, not from excessive heat either, The Cliff UK's never gave me that problem, nor the Cliff USA China Jacks.
Rean Jacks were about the worst I have ever seen, They felt like rubber haha

Edit,
on imported parts, I do not feel like I am giving away American jobs. Cliff UK being an import, it is really not an issue to me, If they are available at a vendor I already use GREAT, if not Oh well.
As far as longevity, if three-five years down the road I see those jacks fail, I would send replacements no matter what source I had used (UK, USA,China, Japan). I have had all of the above jacks fail or have issues at one point or another.

[big mike]

No I'm sure the chinese Cliff jacks are fine.
But they are NOT the same as UK.

Only point I was making, what you chose to use is up to you.
I'm just stating that for someone that wants a real UK Cliff Jack,Cliff USA does not supply them. I know this for a fact.

[Trout]

Just a heads up on the CLIFF UK Jacks,
AES (http://www.tubesandmore.com/) & CE are now carrying the Genuine Cliff UK Jacks in 3 styles again,
Part Numbers;

S-H901 Mono Input, Metal Nut, Cliff UK, 4 Solder Lug
S-H901-PC Mono Input, Metal Nut, Cliff UK, 4 PC Mount
S-H902 Mono Input, Black Plastic Nut, Cliff UK

They still sell the cheaper chinese import version, but for those looking for the real deal, they are in stock and are indeed the real deal. I just bought a few for a rebuild and they match the ones I had.

[zzmoore]

I, for one, appreciate the up-date.
Thanks Fish.......

[big mike]

The fake ones should start bearing their own name soon.
Provided they can stay in business.

[Chrome Dinette]

I believe MCM is also selling the real ones.

[zzmoore]

I believe MCM is also selling the real ones.
You are correct.....or at least they were a few months ago.....if you can trust the word of a Moderator AND a Raider Fan......:aok

[Chrome Dinette]

You are correct.....or at least they were a few months ago.....if you can trust the word of a Moderator AND a Raider Fan......:aok

The ones I got from them recently were definitely sturdier than the fake ones i have seen.

[justicetones]

I felt like I would chime in since I have some knowledge on the Cliff situation.

The very short version as I understand it from legal statements in my possession is that the China factory was setup jointly by Cliff USA and Cliff Plastic Products ( now Cliff Group LTD) . Cliff Group LTD. consists of Derek Souch as a majority shareholder and others.

Cliff Plastic products was started in 1964 with Derek Souch and Albert Montague in East Sussex, England. In 1977 Cliff Electronic Components (Cliff UK) was appointed and financed by them to be run by R.W.Taylor as the distributor.

Cliff USA which is headed by Andy Brunt and Cliff Electronics Australia which is headed by Paul Montague (co-founder's son), and CLiff Ltd (Hong Kong) were all distributors.

The Cliff China factory was setup to handle additional production duties and the original Cliff designs were used to manufacture as I understand it.

So The products are not "fake". They are however made in China. The debate between USA, UK, or China made is irrelevant when it comes to the jacks authenticity. All of the parties involved knew about and were involved in the China factory from what I understand.

We have had Zero issues to speak of with either jack. For us the UK jacks were not available in a reliable timeframe. Also the production of the UK jacks did come to a halt in Bankruptcy.

[justicetones]

Here is one of the press releases copied and pasted.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Cliff Group Ltd. United Kingdom has gone BUST!

EAST SUSSEX, UNITED KINGDOM, - APRIL 18th, 2009 - CliffGroup Ltd., manufacturing Cliff Jacks since 1964 is now out of business. The company went into receivership and all resources have been liquidated. CliffGroup previously known as Cliff Plastics was the manufacturing facility that supplied Cliff UK exclusively for the past 30 years, also supplying our former US distributor Cliff Kansas for over 3 year now using tooling owned by Cliff UK.

Cliff Electronic Components Ltd. UK also known as Cliff UK was able to recover all tooling after providing proof of ownership. Cliff UK also purchased the remaining tooling, injection mold machines and materials. Cliff UK has now moved it to there factory located at the Cliff HQ Factory Facility in Redhill, England. Production has now begun with only 3 weeks lost in down time. Quality standards will be greatly improved as all assembly is now supervised by Cliff Engineering Staff. CliffGroup used homeworkers without any supervision. You can no longer get Genuine Cliff British Made Jacks or Binding posts from our former distributor in Kansas. Please contact us for more information or if you would like to check stock and availability.

Our UK and Far Eastern production plants are certified to ISO 9001 2000 and employ design, engineering, technical, marketing and sales personnel. Quality has always been of prime importance and the majority of CLIFF products are covered by approvals from organizations such as UL, CSA and VDE.

UK, North America, Europe and world-wide sales are either direct to OEM’s or through a network of distributors. Our business partners carry an extensive stock of components and provide a high level of technical and sales support. Three of our distributors are CLIFF companies. For list of all worldwide authorized distributors follow this link: Cliff Distributors

About Your Company
CLIFF Electronic Components Limited was founded in 1977 to supply the music industry with connectors. We have greatly expanded our products and services to become a high quality manufacturer and supplier to most professional and industrial markets. To further compliment our range, we provide expertise in moulding and metalwork to provide a design, engineering and manufacturing service for the production of customized components and assemblies. Our plastics expertise includes injection-moulding, blow-moulding, extrusion, sonic-welding and printing. Metalwork includes stamping, machining, aluminum-extrusion, finishing and printing. We also have the facility to enable assembly, inspection and testing.

For more information on this issue or the latest news on Counterfeit Cliff Parts, please click links below:
Bruce Yeremian
CLIFF INC., NORTH AMERICA
77 Solano Square #175
Benicia, Ca 94510 USA
TEL: +1 (707)746-8090 EXT:210
FAX: +1 (707)746-8092
Email Bruce@CliffInc
www.cliffuk.com
Counterfeit Update Cliff Kansas

Cliff Inc. in Benicia, California is the One and Only North American Division for Cliff Electronic Components Ltd., a company registered in United Kingdom. Company Number 1332056 Registered Office: 76 Holmethorpe Avenue, Holmethorpe Industrial Estate, Redhill, Surrey, RH1 2PF. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.

[big mike]

Not quite but close.
That's the legalese of it. But the counterfeit were made by chk/cliff USA in hong kong
S4 style (Marshall style) jacks were never made in the cliff china facility.

Uk are the only correctly trademarked cliff s4 And s2 style (again Marshall style) jacks
Anything for the last few years supplied by cliff USA was a jack not made with permission from the name and trademark holder.

[justicetones]

Not quite but close.
That's the legalese of it. But the counterfeit were made by chk/cliff USA in hong kong
S4 style (Marshall style) jacks were never made in the cliff china facility.

Uk are the only correctly trademarked cliff s4 And s2 style (again Marshall style) jacks
Anything for the last few years supplied by cliff USA was a jack not made with permission from the name and trademark holder.


Not counterfeit. That is misleading. You should be careful about using that term. They were made in China with Cliff Electronics Products knowledge and cooperation. Not behind their back.

Cliff UK was obviously pissed about that since they could not compete in price I imagine.

[big mike]

I disagree.

At one point in time I was closer to the situation than I want to get into but the issue is the trademark and jacks brought in by cliff USA (now chk).

[Husky]

Well dont know what your source is but we have talked extensively to both sides to try and find out the real deal and it sure gets confusing.

Of course there is a lot of he said she said. Bottom line is we haven't had any failures from either source and have used multiple thousands over long periods.

[justicetones]

Letter from Derek Souch pasted in:

Established 1964
Friday, 20 March 2009
To our Valued Customers
Mr. D. Souch CLIFFGROUP Ltd
16 Cliffe Industrial Estate Lewes, East Sussex, BN8 6JL England, U.K.

My name is Derek Souch and I am the co-founder and the majority shareholder of Cliff Group Ltd, formerly Cliff Plastic Products Ltd., located at 16 Cliffe Industrial Estate, South Street, Lewes, East Sussex, BN8 6JL, England, U.K.

It has come to my attention that there is some confusion as to who is the originator of the CLIFF brand of products, and the source of genuine CLIFF products, so I am writing this letter to set the record straight.
I started Cliff Plastic Products Ltd. in 1964 with my partner Albert'Monty' Montague and we set-up a factory in Telscombe Cliffs in East Sussex, England to manufacture a range of
jack plugs, jack sockets, terminals and knobs, the 'Quicktest' plus other trade moldings.

In September 1977, we appointed and financed Cliff Electronic Components, Ltd. (Cliff UK), based in Redhill, England, and headed by R. W. Taylor, to be our distributor. Cliff UK was appointed by us as our distributor, but they did not originate the Cliff brand of products.
Cliff UK's recent claims that they are the originator of the Cliff brand of products are entirely untrue.

Prior to appointing Cliff UK as our distributor, for 13 years we sold our products through distribution and direct to our customers in the UK and Europe, and through a distributor in the USA, Guest International, Inc. More recently we have continued to sell our products through Cliff UK, and also through Cliff Electronic Components, Inc. in the USA headed by Andy Brunt, Cliff Electronics in Australia, headed by Paul Montague, the son of my former business partner, and through Cliff (Hong Kong) Ltd.

I would sincerely like to apologise for any confusion that has been caused. Yours faithfully,
Mr. D. Souch


[big mike]

Never said one was better than the other Jon, Ive not said one word about quality.

[big mike]

All of that stopped when cliff plastics went under and cliff uk. Took I've their (owned) tooling

[Husky]

Never said one was better than the other Jon, Ive not said one word about quality.

Well there was a good period when we only had one option with that look as did many others.
Really none of my business as long as I'm buying product and it works, it is about availability and function to me. Again I have seen more failures on Switchcraft 12A jacks than either of these. Didn't say YOU said there was a quality difference but it is inferred by others.

PS it is John ;)

[zzmoore]

Well there was a good period when we only had one option with that look as did many others.
Really none of my business as long as I'm buying product and it works, it is about availability and function to me. Again I have seen more failures on Switchcraft 12A jacks than either of these. Didn't say YOU said there was a quality difference but it is inferred by others.

PS it is John ;)
Can you expand on your experience with Switchcraft "failure".?
One reason I ask is because I had a bad experience with them. I bought 2 batches of 10 Switchcraft Jacks from CE about 2-3 years ago. 9 of the 20 did not read "short" from the Switch to the Tip. I did not notice this at first. When I rebuilt a 1969 Super Reverb, I had a problem at the Lo Input on the Trem Channel. I did some measuring and found the switch was not shorting, with no plug installed. This was on a NEW jack. So I replaced it with another NEW Switchcraft jack, only to find the same problem. When I checked the 20 I had ordered, I found 9 of them had this problem.
Most of my amp repair experience is with BF/SF Fenders. I have also found this to be a "fairly" common problem with Fenders from the 1960's and 1970's......granted that would involve amps that are 40-50 years old, but I have no way of knowing WHEN the jacks failed.
Anyway.....I used Cliff jacks on the afore mentioned Fender SR because of this......I have been partial to Cliff jacks for the last couple of years now. The Switching appears to ME to be of a much better application.
Thank You

[diagrammatiks]

so the guy that's running cliff UK right now:

-was not the person who originally created the cliff brand
-was a distributor for the other guys at one point

and cliffUSA

-was first
-then went out of business

and then cliffUK bought the original machines
while some other investors bought out the original company and the intellectual property?

so confusing.

also I noticed something about neutriks in a post above.

there are neutriks with metal casings. however, try as I might I can't find a regular consumer level source for a TS/switching version of that jack.

debbie downer.

[Husky]

Can you expand on your experience with Switchcraft "failure".?
One reason I ask is because I had a bad experience with them. I bought 2 batches of 10 Switchcraft Jacks from CE about 2-3 years ago. 9 of the 20 did not read "short" from the Switch to the Tip. I did not notice this at first. When I rebuilt a 1969 Super Reverb, I had a problem at the Lo Input on the Trem Channel. I did some measuring and found the switch was not shorting, with no plug installed. This was on a NEW jack. So I replaced it with another NEW Switchcraft jack, only to find the same problem. When I checked the 20 I had ordered, I found 9 of them had this problem.
Most of my amp repair experience is with BF/SF Fenders. I have also found this to be a "fairly" common problem with Fenders from the 1960's and 1970's......granted that would involve amps that are 40-50 years old, but I have no way of knowing WHEN the jacks failed.
Anyway.....I used Cliff jacks on the afore mentioned Fender SR because of this......I have been partial to Cliff jacks for the last couple of years now. The Switching appears to ME to be of a much better application.
Thank You

Yeah I'm trying to talk Jim Kelley in to the Cliff style for the Kelley amp line we are making. My problems date back to all the Custom Audio product including the 3+ preamp where primarily the normalizing would be intermittent. Also the center ground sleeve is crimped and many times comes loose. Sometimes the parts would just loose their spring and deform. Some non switchcraft guitar plugs dont fit well or secure. Having the metal parts be a thicker gauge is not always a good thing even though it looks industrial. The fix for the normalizing is to let it close on a folded over strip piece of sandpaper like 600 grit and pull the sandpaper out. I think they have a coating on the parts during forming and seems like they have a tough time getting it off. Sometimes the normalizing just didnt have enough spring. Anyway I always had shitty luck with 12A jacks. Plus for isolation you need to deal with isolation washers. I have never had any of these problems with Cliff style jacks unless you get them too hot and melt them.

[zzmoore]

Wow.....more problems than I realized. Just goes to show how things can change (+ or -) when you deal in big enough numbers. And yeah......iso is another issue that is self healed with Cliff Jacks. I am sure there are A Lot of guys that will say they have NO problems.....and that is fine. But I am finished paying 6 dollars a piece for the Military Grade Switchcraft Jacks......Cliff just seems a better design if space is not a problem on a smaller/retro-fitted chassis.
Anyway.......10-4.
Thank You Mr Suhr

[Chrome Dinette]

I suspect the cheap plastic jacks I tried and didn't like were not from either Cliff, but were a third party knockoff.

[Chrome Dinette]

Some non switchcraft guitar plugs dont fit well or secure.


This doesn't surprise me, though I haven't personally seen it with 11 or 12 connectors. It's a problem with the 151, which I hate anyway(currently having the one in my Teuffel Tesla replaced with a normal jack on an oval plate).

[Science Amps]

I only use the Cliff UK jacks now after having many field failures with the tip-shunt becoming intermittent on the new Switchcrafts. I shared my experience with the US distributor of Cliff who told me both 65 Amps and Two-Rock had warranty issues due to the Switchcrafts as well. Hopefully they'll get the picture soon...

[Husky]

I only use the Cliff UK jacks now after having many field failures with the tip-shunt becoming intermittent on the new Switchcrafts. I shared my experience with the US distributor of Cliff who told me both 65 Amps and Two-Rock had warranty issues due to the Switchcrafts as well. Hopefully they'll get the picture soon...

The problems I have experienced with the switchcraft 12A's goes back to 91' and we complained many times so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Merry Xmas all!

[Bruce Clement]

FWIW, I use only Cliff UK jacks. I buy them by the 100-count box from Cliff UK. Below is copied from the signature of my US contact at Cliff UK. Contact him and he'll sell you a box for a very reasonable price.

Bruce Yeremian
North American Sales Manager
CLIFF INC - North America
a division of Cliff Electronic Components, Ltd. UK
77 Solano Square Ste. #175
Benicia, Ca 94510 USA
Tel: +1 (707)746-8090 ext:210
Toll Free: +1 (866)216-8835 ext:210
Fax:+1 (707)746-8092
bruce@cliffinc.com - www.cliffinc.com (http://www.cliffinc.com)

I don't fully understand the legal issues. I do know that the Chinese jacks don't look or feel right, nor do similar offerings from Neutrik and Re-An. If it doesn't say CLIFF UK on the bottom, it doesn't go in my amps.

[Science Amps]

The problems I have experienced with the switchcraft 12A's goes back to 91' and we complained many times so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Merry Xmas all!

Oh wow, I thought it was a more recent issue, and here you've been complaining since I was in the 1st grade!!!

[Jim Kelley]

Yeah I'm trying to talk Jim Kelley in to the Cliff style for the Kelley amp line we are making. My problems date back to all the Custom Audio product including the 3+ preamp where primarily the normalizing would be intermittent. Also the center ground sleeve is crimped and many times comes loose. Sometimes the parts would just loose their spring and deform. Some non switchcraft guitar plugs dont fit well or secure. Having the metal parts be a thicker gauge is not always a good thing even though it looks industrial. The fix for the normalizing is to let it close on a folded over strip piece of sandpaper like 600 grit and pull the sandpaper out. I think they have a coating on the parts during forming and seems like they have a tough time getting it off. Sometimes the normalizing just didnt have enough spring. Anyway I always had shitty luck with 12A jacks. Plus for isolation you need to deal with isolation washers. I have never had any of these problems with Cliff style jacks unless you get them too hot and melt them.

Well, the plastic bushing and coarse threads are a minus in my opinion. They can break when somebody steps on your guitar cord, whereas you can usually just bend a Switchcraft back in place. (And I'm not particularly anxious to have anything on the amps looking like a Marshall.) But if the quality is no longer there with the Switchcraft parts, then it's something that will need to be reconsidered.

jk

[big mike]

I'm not sure whose distributing them anymore but look into an Italian
Open jack manufacturer called ST professional stellar quality stuff.
Falleroni pierofrancesco was the director I believe
Traynor and I believe Taylor was using their endpoint jacks
Black instead of the brownish insulator

Hbe and a few other pedal builders used them as well.

[Husky]

Well, the plastic bushing and coarse threads are a minus in my opinion. They can break when somebody steps on your guitar cord, whereas you can usually just bend a Switchcraft back in place. (And I'm not particularly anxious to have anything on the amps looking like a Marshall.) But if the quality is no longer there with the Switchcraft parts, then it's something that will need to be reconsidered.

jk

We will do some tests but I never remember any breaking issues. Something about the way the jack is held captive and designed makes them much stronger than you would think. The plastic nut version is a different story though.
However I'm not as worried with your amp since we dont rely on the normalizing which is where the switchcraft really have issues. I do understand trying to a avoid the Marshall look.

[big mike]

Perhaps the amphenol version with the inserted metal crush sleeve.
Different looking enough than the normal cl1220 Plastic nosed cliff jack.

Or I recall throwing a metal nut the Plastic nose jacks.

[Science Amps]

I've seen these Switchcrafts used too in audio equipment, but never tried them myself.

http://www.onlinecomponents.com/switchcraft_113.html?p=12318403

[am-audio]

I'm not sure whose distributing them anymore but look into an Italian
Open jack manufacturer called ST professional stellar quality stuff.
Falleroni pierofrancesco was the director I believe
Traynor and I believe Taylor was using their endpoint jacks
Black instead of the brownish insulator

Hbe and a few other pedal builders used them as well.

A quick google search shows no other than Cliff USA as their distributor. Some kind of twisted irony. I can't find them for sale anywhere on the web though.

[big mike]

No that's who I thought might have them. People reading me as saying the Cliff USA stuff was bad is mistaken, I'm just saying the UK jacks are BETTER and they own the trademark on it. That's all. Most chinese jacks have phospher bronze contacts with a tin plating. The longevity is not going to be as good, nor is insertion/extraction strenght, as a nickel silver contact. Only reason to tin plate anything on a nickel silver contact, is for normally open or 'make' contacts, or FX loops.

The ST open jacks are awesome. And they also have REALLY good pushbutton switches. The guys from ST are really good people, and they care much about their product.

They even have a PCB mount 4PDT switch with self cleaning contacts.

[am-audio]

No that's who I thought might have them. People reading me as saying the Cliff USA stuff was bad is mistaken, I'm just saying the UK jacks are BETTER and they own the trademark on it. That's all. Most chinese jacks have phospher bronze contacts with a tin plating. The longevity is not going to be as good, nor is insertion/extraction strenght, as a nickel silver contact. Only reason to tin plate anything on a nickel silver contact, is for normally open or 'make' contacts, or FX loops.

The ST open jacks are awesome. And they also have REALLY good pushbutton switches. The guys from ST are really good people, and they care much about their product.

They even have a PCB mount 4PDT switch with self cleaning contacts.

Just to be clear I agree with you. I just had a Cliff USA jack act up and quit shorting after maybe 20 cycles of being plugged into. I was trying to use up the ones I had in stock on my own toys rather than put them in customers amps so I used them in a plexi style build I did for my own jollies. The bass channel started humming like crazy with nothing plugged in the other day, I thought I had a bad triode on the input tube but it was the jack not shorting. I'm actually more pissed at CE on this whole thing, I think they were somewhat deceptive in their product description. That's how I ended up with them.

[big mike]

Unfortunately CE took Cliff USA's side in the issue.

Example all the 'white' jacks out there now. Those are all not true cliff jacks. New tooling, Chinese, phospher contacts. But they look 'park' . So they sell.

Shame.

[zzmoore]

Unfortunately CE took Cliff USA's side in the issue.

Example all the 'white' jacks out there now. Those are all not true cliff jacks. New tooling, Chinese, phospher contacts. But they look 'park' . So they sell.

Shame.
Has there been any definitive "tests".....or just some long term experience.....from yourself, or others that you trust.....that lean one way or the other as far as quality between the UK and USA jacks.?
Just for example.....any issues after a high number of insertion and extraction of a plug into and out of the jacks......that is to say.....does one maker seen to hold up better than another In Your Experience.?
Thanks Mike

[big mike]

Has there been any definitive "tests".....or just some long term experience.....from yourself, or others that you trust.....that lean one way or the other as far as quality between the UK and USA jacks.?
Just for example.....any issues after a high number of insertion and extraction of a plug into and out of the jacks......that is to say.....does one maker seen to hold up better than another In Your Experience.?
Thanks Mike

Yeah the UK were life tested to 10000 (as I recall) insertion / extractions. I believe the chinese ones were as well, but just from my time in the industry, we had less issues with failures on the UK jacks of that style.

Not that the chinese were bad, the UK were more consistant.

Also the UK jacks are a virgin nylon not a reground as the chinese. THis makes some difference to some, none to others. if I were loading something like an Adat and wave soldering tons of stack jacks, I'd stick with the chinese. For the guitar amp inputs, marshall style, etc, The Cliff UK had a longer life rate on the contacts.

Again from memory, i've been out of that industry for 5 years plus.

[zzmoore]

10-4.....Thanks

[big mike]

Like I said:

http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/news/news20111222.htm


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CLIFF UK WINS Court Case over Counterfeit Parts,
Read what Legal Impact this may have on Your Company and it's Products
TOPEKA, KANSAS - January 06, 2011 - Court Rules in favour of Cliff UK against Cliff Electronic Components Inc (CLIFF USA) and Andrew Brunt. The court in Topeka, Kansas, has issued its order in the long-running dispute between Cliff UK and its EX-distributor, Now located in Topeka, Kansas now trading as CHK Electronics and Andrew Brunt.
The court ruled that Cliff USA (DBA CHK Electronics)

Had infringed on Cliff UK’s American Trademark “CLIFF”
Engaged in unfair competition with Cliff UK
Falsely designated the origin of its counterfeit goods marketed to American Consumers & OEM’s
Owes Cliff UK an unspecified money judgment and infringement penalties yet to be determined
It also ruled that Cliff UK is entitled to an injunction prohibiting Cliff USA and Andrew Brunt from engaging in further use of the Cliff trademark or name. The court denied the counterclaims of Cliff USA and Andrew Brunt and found the latter personally liable.
The ruling confirms that only Cliff UK, its USA subsidiary Cliff Inc. or Cliff authorized resellers are entitled to sell products in the USA under the Cliff brand name. Counterfeit products must not be marked with the Cliff name nor sold as genuine Cliff products.
OEM who specifies Cliff parts to be used in their products should be aware that genuine parts are only sold by Cliff UK, Cliff Inc. or an authorized reseller. Names of authorized resellers can be obtained from Cliff Inc.
A number of components which infringe Cliff UK’s patents such as Stackjacks™ and some Terminals are being sold by unauthorized sellers, and used by USA manufacturers. These parts have been marked with the Cliff trademark in the past, but have recently appeared with no markings. Some manufacturers who are known to have purchased these parts, whilst awaiting the outcome of this lawsuit, have been advised that they infringe Cliff UK’s US patents by using patent infringing clones. These manufacturers should now desist from using parts which infringe our patents.
Bob Taylor (President), Melvyn French (European Sales Director) and Bruce Yeremian (VP Cliff North America) will be available at Namm booth 5785 to answer any questions or concerns you may have about the judgment and how this may affect the parts you currently are buying from our previous US distributor.
A copy of the court documents can be found on our web site: www.cliffuk.co.uk/lawsuit/CourtOrder20111114.pdf (http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/lawsuit/CourtOrder20111114.pdf)

[Bruce Clement]

Good for them! And shame on the counterfeiters and those who knowingly sold the fake jacks.

[trdlasvegas]

Gotta love this but both companies, Cliff UK and Cliff Hong Kong will be at NAMM next week. Good thing they are in different Halls.


Booth 5785 Hall B - Cliff UK

Booth 4196 Hall C - Cliff Hong Kong



-Tony

[big mike]

has been that way every year since the 'split'.