Fender Princeton questions?

[James BCM]

I have a few questions for the Fender crowd out there. Is a Fender Princeton going to do what I need it to do, and will I see huge tone differences in Reverb and non reverb models except for the actual reverb? Not at all interested in reissues, just not my thing.

First requirement is it CAN NOT mush out with PAF Les Pauls when driven pretty hard. I have already been the Kendrick 118 (6V6, 6L6, and KT 66 route), Bad Cat Mini Cat (Jensen 100 watt NEO), and Fender Champ (Weber 8" speaker and NOS tubes), but none of these sounded good at all when driven hard. Sure, I have a 33 year old Strat etc., but PAF's are my thing.

My contacts at Tone Quest Report just ran a review on a Princeton with a bunch of different speakers and so far the Celestion ALNiCo Gold 10" sounded the best with every axe. They reported zero mush on the bottom and this might be what I should try.

This amp will be used for a quick grab and go at home, or for small room practicing when full band can't get together. I'll push it with a KLON I'm sure for that little extra umph, but is needs to sound good at lower volumes not just breakup.

I'm not trying to turn this into something it isn't. As a large boutique dealer, I have a lot of cool amps to run, (see list below on my signature, no need to repeat here), but if i have to, I can continue to run my 65 Amps SoHo and 2 x 12" cab using the Master Voltage system. It works fine, but just sounds a touch sleepy at lower wattages.

Also, no need for a museum piece here, or expensive all original Blackface unless you think that is what I really need. I run my 69' Marshall HARD as it was meant, and this Princeton will be run equally hard as well.

Thanks for your time.

LB
BCM

[62Tele]

There is a noticeable difference between a Princeton Reverb and non-reverb model. The non-reverbs have less oomph, the PR is all around more versatile for my tastes. A PR always had a little bit of a tweed character to my ears. Don't get me wrong, they are not tweed Deluxes, but they are not exactly the blackface tone you hear with the larger Fenders. So, mushing out is a possibility if you are pushing the amp hard and have the wrong speaker and tubes. You can get a little more glass and slightly tighter tone if you have somebody set one up for 6L6's. But there is a point where the small output tranny is going to give it up. It will have a LOT more headroom than the Champ.

The differences between blackface and silverface versions of the smaller Fenders are so trivial it's hard to justify the expense of the blackface. Any competent tech can completely blackface a circuit pretty easily. If you are looking for an amp to USE and not collect, the silvers are a great value.

When you say you are not interested in re-issues, does that include boutique amps? I just picked up a Clark Kanee which is an excellent take on a PR (at about 20 watts), sounds great throughout the volume range and doesn't need any servicing like most vintage amps will. Allen makes the Sweet Spot which has an expanded range given the mid/raw control. I don't dig the Fender re-issues either, but these guys are building repros which are significantly better constructed than the vintage amps and can be tailored to your needs with tube swapping, speaker choices etc. I've never seen a Headstrong amp in person, but they have quite a following on this board as well. You could call any of these guys, tell them what you want and they can get you into the right amp. Just a thought.

[James BCM]

My bad, I should have said no new Princeton reissues, thanks for correcting me.

I'll stick with Fender on this one even though down deep I know I could get a Blankenship at wholesale cost and do more with it. I just want a nice Fender low wattage amp in this size if it will work for what I need. Deluxe's are WAY to powerful for my desires. Been there done that too.

LB
BCM

[62Tele]

Then I would look for a silverface PR. They are still pretty reasonable and pop up periodically. But seriously, after 35 years of using Fenders and doing a ton of restorations, I don't own any vintage amps anymore. These amps are getting old, and they can be very well reproduced to specs above the originals. Just my conclusion for my needs, so take it for whatever it's worth.

I'm currently looking for a different speaker for my Clark and would really like to see what Tone Quest had to say. Is this an article coming out soon?

[soldersucker]

I own both and think you're barking up the wrong tree.The PR will mush driven hard with buckers.The P-non-rev is pretty non-inspiring and barely louder than a champ with the same power section.
Look's too me like you have access to boutique stuff you may be better looking there IMHO.

[GuitarsFromMars]

I really like my 1965 Princeton NR. Little to no distortion with single coils all the way up. Humbuckers still clean mostly. Not a loud amp, but great for tracking (Robbie Blunt on 'Big Log' by Robert Plant is a good NR example). Not a loud rig(12 watts, class AB), with slightly scooped mids. I like using Hermida Audio products with this amp.

[Blue Strat]

PR's WILL mush out with humbuckers with the volume at 5 or higher (sometimes even lower). Princetons, as already mentioned, don't provide much volume and stay clean because they don't.

Even Deluxe Reverbs will mush out, but at higher volumes.

As always, try as many as possible. 1000 opinions won't necessarily equal your own opinion.

[Blindspot]

Unless you are desirous of a vintage Fender BFPR specifically because it is a vintage Fender BFPR, I don't see why you would spend the extra money when you have access to boutique amps at wholesale - and I'm a vintage Fender guy many times over.

Also, as noted above, vintage amps require an amp tech (unless you do your own work) to at least go through them and sort out the aging details - all of mine BF amps have been professionally sorted by my pro to the tune of $200+ per amp. Factor that in to your purchase.

[Robert Parker]

I use my princeton with a tele and would not use it with a les paul. There are two reasons for this: (1) not enough clean headroom with buckers and (2) it's a waste of the glassy, fendery goodness the princeton can give you with single coils. Just my opinion, obviously.

[direwolf]

Fender Princeton Reverb II Amplifier, Rivera Era.
Sells for 800 used.

[SuperSonic]

Would you consider a Princeton clone? There are some very good builders out there. Marsh and Headstrong come to mind.

[James BCM]

Thanks guys, this pretty much sums up what I thought might occur when driving a Les Paul pretty good. Your input has been very much appreciated.

My Champ was nice with single coils, but above 3 it was pure mush with a LP. Getting 2 more units of clean headroom on a PR won't do it for me.

Yea, I guess I'll take a look at some other newer boutique amps that I have access to at a wholesale price.

Thanks,

LB
BCM

[mds]

I've worked a lot in the studio with a big name guitarist/film composer (we've done a few hundred million dollars worth of movies together). He owns a ridiculous pile of vintage marshall's, fenders, voxes, etc. as well as lots of boutique amps. I've worked on 3 or 4 movie scores with him and a few records over the past few years. His 65 Princeton Reverb is used 99% of the time. It just sounds fantastic. Clean, driven hard, Teles, Pauls, whatever. We've gotten sounds out of it that sound like a Marshall stack. Love that amp....

I bought a 72 Princeton Reverb because of this experience, and I honestly believe its the best amp I've ever owned in 20 years of guitar playing (10+ as a professional studio and live musician in LA). I can't say enough good things about the Princeton, and I strongly believe in the reverb as well. NRs are okay, but the verb often makes the tone.

That said, I did swap speakers in mine. The original sounded good, but I was using it in live settings and couldn't keep in clean enough in some situations. I swapped it with a weber and now the amp is quite loud and clean do to the increase in sensitivity.

I can't recommend these amps enough!! haha

Good luck!

Mike

[voojo]

I've worked a lot in the studio with a big name guitarist/film composer (we've done a few hundred million dollars worth of movies together). He owns a ridiculous pile of vintage marshall's, fenders, voxes, etc. as well as lots of boutique amps. I've worked on 3 or 4 movie scores with him and a few records over the past few years. His 65 Princeton Reverb is used 99% of the time. It just sounds fantastic. Clean, driven hard, Teles, Pauls, whatever. We've gotten sounds out of it that sound like a Marshall stack. Love that amp....

I bought a 72 Princeton Reverb because of this experience, and I honestly believe its the best amp I've ever owned in 20 years of guitar playing (10+ as a professional studio and live musician in LA). I can't say enough good things about the Princeton, and I strongly believe in the reverb as well. NRs are okay, but the verb often makes the tone.

That said, I did swap speakers in mine. The original sounded good, but I was using it in live settings and couldn't keep in clean enough in some situations. I swapped it with a weber and now the amp is quite loud and clean do to the increase in sensitivity.

I can't recommend these amps enough!! haha

Good luck!

Mike

So what you're saying is Princetons rock! I agree!!

[62Tele]

I've worked a lot in the studio with a big name guitarist/film composer (we've done a few hundred million dollars worth of movies together). He owns a ridiculous pile of vintage marshall's, fenders, voxes, etc. as well as lots of boutique amps. I've worked on 3 or 4 movie scores with him and a few records over the past few years. His 65 Princeton Reverb is used 99% of the time. It just sounds fantastic. Clean, driven hard, Teles, Pauls, whatever. We've gotten sounds out of it that sound like a Marshall stack. Love that amp....

I bought a 72 Princeton Reverb because of this experience, and I honestly believe its the best amp I've ever owned in 20 years of guitar playing (10+ as a professional studio and live musician in LA). I can't say enough good things about the Princeton, and I strongly believe in the reverb as well. NRs are okay, but the verb often makes the tone.

That said, I did swap speakers in mine. The original sounded good, but I was using it in live settings and couldn't keep in clean enough in some situations. I swapped it with a weber and now the amp is quite loud and clean do to the increase in sensitivity.

I can't recommend these amps enough!! haha

Good luck!

Mike

So which Weber did you put in?

[Shane Sanders]

So which Weber did you put in?

I'm curious about this, too.

[Dumb Bell]

PR's WILL mush out with humbuckers with the volume at 5 or higher (sometimes even lower). Princetons, as already mentioned, don't provide much volume and stay clean because they don't.

Even Deluxe Reverbs will mush out, but at higher volumes.

As always, try as many as possible. 1000 opinions won't necessarily equal your own opinion.
I must own a strange Princeton then. It's a 64 non reverb model, with the white knobs, and it rips turned up.

[DJ_61]

I have a Vintage Sound 112P which is in essence a Princeton Reverb clone with a 12 inch speaker. I bought it as a backup amp for home playing but I ended up playing it every where all the time. Best amp I have ever heard or played. It will stay clean till 5 with singles. I have no experience with paf's though. Rick from Vintage Sound can also build you a more powerful version, something like the Headstrong Lil' King S.

[Jeffj]

I must own a strange Princeton then. It's a 64 non reverb model, with the white knobs, and it rips turned up.

It's not strange, just a different amp than the black knob Princeton. You have a brown Princeton in black cosmetics....which is a great amp

[smolder]

I fixed the PR humbucker much out problem with a scumback H75 speaker based on other's here sharing that tip.

[Jeffj]

I am a die hard Princeton guy...both reverb & non reverb models. They are different tone wise & I use each for different gigs. For straight up country gigs, I use the NR with my tele. I HAVE to use a clean boost with it to be able to get the stage volume I need. The non reverb is a very quite & clean amp. Not much louder than a Champ, but cleaner & fuller. The reverb model I use for gigs that need a humbucker guitar (PRS McCarty), but it sounds killer with my tele as well. I use it for more alt-country\Americana type stuff. They are different amps tone wise...even if the names are similiar. With your needs\wants, a NR will get you there with an overdrive pedal. Not even close without one.....

[SuperSonic]

I have a Marsh Princeton hand wired. It has a Weber 12 inch in it and it is amazing. You talking about spank, it has it. about 300 more than a Fender reissue. Point to point wired.

[mds]

So which Weber did you put in?

10F150-T 8 ohm 50 watt. A LOT louder and much more clean volume. Also added some bass, which keeps my bass knob around 0-2. In many situations I find guitar sits in a live mix better without much bass.

[62Tele]

Thanks - I have the 125 in my Kanee and want a little more headroom (not a fan of speaker distortion). The bass thing is typical Fender formula aint it? - the louder you play, the more you turn the bass down.

[MT Buckaroo]

I have a 10F150-25 watt version, in my '75 SFPR. Great marriage. I'm also running a 5R4 rectifier to keep the plate voltage down a bit, and reissue Tung-Sol 6V6GTs.

Dumb Bell, you have a 6G2 circuit Princeton. Decidedly different animal, but a classic in its own right.