i feel CHEATED in my 9 years playing.. [Archive]

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szango

03-05-2005, 05:22 AM

lhallam

03-05-2005, 09:26 AM

I'm not a huge advocate of TAB but at the same time, it serves it's purpose. There is nothing wrong with learning it. I don't consider it cheating, it's just another tool.

It's very possible that your current understanding of TAB and then introduction to standard notation has brought you to this breakthrough.

You are at a very good place because now you can use both.

Congratulations on your breakthrough. Gotta love it.

Just an aside, piano and classical gtr standard notation does denote fingering suggestions.

Jon Silberman

03-05-2005, 05:16 PM

From what I understand, tab for lute predated notation. In any event, tab makes much more sense for guitar than piano given how the two instruments are played, e.g., what do you have on the piano that's like a pre-bend and release with vibrato?

That being said, I learned to read first and am glad I can (even though I almost never learn new stuff these days any other way than by ear or tab).

Old Tele man

03-05-2005, 05:42 PM

szango--mull this over: NOTATION is to LATIN as TAB is to CRAYONS...(ie: can you say "classic" versus "colloquial"?)

03-06-2005, 08:33 AM

Don't feel cheated by TAB, you should feel cheated by the teachers who never took the time to help you learn notation, despite your telling them that you wanted to master the guitar.

Glad to hear that you have a teacher who is now doing exactly that.

dkaplowitz

03-06-2005, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by szango
for anyone that cares William Levitts (berklee press) "Reading Studies for Guitar", "Advanced Reading Studies for Guitar" "Modern Method for Guitar" "Melodic Rhythms for Guitar"

I picked up all of them. and they are nessecities to any guitarist that doesnt know how to read yet! they are working MAJIC on me... i hate them, because it takes you back to day one with the guitar... but if you grind it out, they are the BEST thing to ever happen to you! (at least me)
Those are great books. I have all of them and am trying to teach myself to fill in all the blanks in my slack reading skills.

aleclee

03-06-2005, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by szango you dont see piano music with little keys marked off showing you where to press your fingers.. that would be STUPOD! and its JUST AS stupid to do so on guitar!!![/B]IMO, this argument breaks down because that there's only one way to play E5 on a piano where there are 3 places on the fretboard where you can play that same note. As such, I see tab as being quite compelling for use by beginning and even intermediate players. Learning parts is hard enough without puzzling though where on the fretboard to play them.

In my mind, use of notation vs. tab boils down to being a musician vs. being a guitar player. To be honest, at this point in my life I'm more than content being just a guitar player. I have enough goal orientation in my professional life that when I want to play guitar, it's play in the classical sense.

And for the record, I learned to read notation long before I discovered tab or picked up a guitar.

guitguy28

03-06-2005, 02:55 PM

I have to agree with what some of the others have said: tab can be very useful. It's been around a long time, it's not just something invented for metalheads back in the 80s.

The point is, the piano is a very linear instrument, one note can only be played in one place, and you can't bend the pitch of notes or add vibrato. Standard music notation works fine for piano, but-

The guitar, and other instruments like it, have a somewhat non-linear fretboard that is a matrix, with an x- and a y-axis. The same pitch can be played at multiple positions on the fretboard. Sometimes things, like chord patterns, etc. can be hard to figure out exactly without the benefit of something like tab. Tablature is a good way of showing guitar players the most logical way to play something, when you are faced with multiple ways of playing a certain piece. I've learned a lot from tab- basically a cohesive way of looking at the fretboard, and how to get certain sounds for certain styles, which would have been impossible with just standard notation.

Having said that, I'm in the process of learning to read standard notation ( I just have to spend more time memorizing pitches and getting used to rhythms) and it's great for guitarists who want to go beyond simply being a guitarist and become a good all-round musician.

dkaplowitz

03-06-2005, 03:35 PM

I'd never argue about tab being a "bad" thing, however, the point people raise about learning rhythm is a good one, and something that tab has yet to facilitate. When learning to read musical notation a considerable amount of time is (or should be) spent learning all kinds of rhythms well enough that they are memorized and ingrained. Many of these rhythms are ones that the guitar player or lutenist might not otherwise be exposed to if he was relying solely on tab for input. To me, everything in tab looks like 4/4 with straight 8ths or 16ths, but I know there's more going on in some cases. Standard notation clears it up quite well.

T.Wesley

03-08-2005, 08:54 AM

Tablature pre-dates the modern guitar. If it was good enough for the ancients, it's good enough for me.

That said, learning to read music is an excellent skill!

--chiba

Mark C

03-08-2005, 09:47 AM

Tab can be a decent tool, but you're right - it's no substitute for truly learning your way around the instrument. I wish I had understood ear training at a much younger age. I meet lots of musicians who only learn by tab, hence, they can't learn certain songs if there is no tab for them and they can't jam. All the greats learned by ear, even if they knew how to read.

Tim Bowen

03-09-2005, 01:19 AM

As eloquently noted by the other posters, teaching guitar is not at all similar to teaching piano. The piano is an excellent reference point for being able to "see" harmony and theory as it lays out in a linear fashion. The guitar is mostly "not", and many of the things that sound "cool" to us about the guitar are very much "guitaristic" in nature, and are quite dependent on where in fact the multiple choices of any said note can be found, as relating to the overall "sound".

In my teaching, I'd say that I most often utilize standard musical notation. However, tablature (or more pertinently, where exactly the fingers should be placed) is paramount to teaching this particular instrument. I need and depend on both of these approaches as tools.

Mr.Hanky

03-09-2005, 05:23 AM

Sorry, to me this is the product of a bad teacher.

I have been teaching on and off for a long time and have studied quite a bit over the years. There is a delicate balance that has to be achieved when teaching a student, I give you some you give me some. I was never the type of guy that could simply show someone songs every week and a few pentatonic scales, I just could NOT do it.

You have to take some responsibility to make sure your guys , in the long run, will walk away with a fair amount of literacy, instead of the run of the mill musical parrot.
Forcing (and usually this is the case) a student to stuble through Mel Bay book one is not asking a whole lot. If that would have happened in szango's case this thread would not exist.

Tim Bowen

03-10-2005, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Hanky
Sorry, to me this is the product of a bad teacher.

I have been teaching on and off for a long time and have studied quite a bit over the years. There is a delicate balance that has to be achieved when teaching a student, I give you some you give me some. I was never the type of guy that could simply show someone songs every week and a few pentatonic scales, I just could NOT do it.

You have to take some responsibility to make sure your guys , in the long run, will walk away with a fair amount of literacy, instead of the run of the mill musical parrot.
Forcing (and usually this is the case) a student to stuble through Mel Bay book one is not asking a whole lot. If that would have happened in szango's case this thread would not exist.

Good post, and I agree with you 100%, at least in principle. Since I earn my living as a player/teacher, I'm not always at liberty to turn away preferred learning methods of students, as the bills do have to be paid.

I 've broken it down like this:

For youngsters under the age of 14, I explain to the parent or guardian in advance that I will not take on the student unless they are willing to learn standard musical notation.

For older teenagers and young adults, I strongly suggest that they learn to read, but will not beat them over the head with it if they are unwilling - "You can lead a horse to water, but..."

I give adults the most leeway here, but again, push the reading thing pretty hard. "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime." For the guy who just wants to learn a bunch of songs, I tell them early on that our relationship will not be long term - basically, I prepare them to deal with the jungle of tablature out there, try to nip bad habits in the bud, and upon reaching that point, tell them that they need to make a decision as to whether they would care to continue their studies with me. I have one guy that has been with me for a couple of years, and he's an interesting case. He has said to me that he wants to better understand the fretboard, but has balked at the prospect of learning the names of all the notes on the board, as well as diving into the CAGED method. When he brings the subject up, I tell him that I'll be happy to help, but on my terms only. I think I finally have this guy coming around... he also happens to be a former NFL star, and I asked him if he trusted his coaches when he was in the league. When he said "yes", I told him that he would need to trust my approach, and that if progress was truly desired, my terms and choice of approach were non-negotiable. He seems to be cool with that, finally.

I try to mix reading, ear training and interval recognition, styles, harmony and theory, technique, and oh yeah, FUN, into my teaching, and I put a lot of thought and work into it. Students often fidget and squirm when hit with the "math", but that's cool, they're gonna get it anyway, and I explain that they can thank me later, when they're a rock star. And while it may not be the best professional decision in the world, I do tend to get close to my more dedicated students. Music is so personal and vulnerable that I don't think it can be taught properly without getting to know one's students.

I will say that I'm a bit perplexed by what I've encountered from students who have come from systems such as Suzuki... while it might just be a fluke, many of these people can read well, but have not been taught to distinguish a 3rd from a 7th, and have no idea
how to construct a chord or harmonize the major scale. This to me is extremely disheartening and causes me to seriously question the mindsets of music education systems at large.

Mr.Hanky

03-10-2005, 04:18 AM

I think we are on the same page Tim, and I fully understand about making a living doing it, I have been there.

It is like making a soufle', you have to have a delicate balance or the whole thing can go south.

Your coach analogy is right on, I never understood the "i wanna learn this this and this" mentality. If you have ever studied martial arts then you know that you do not walk in and say "I want to learn how to punch, no kicking for me thanks", same difference. I started studying (guitar) again a year ago and I alway go in with an open mind, let the teacher teach. You have to respect the experience, it is that simple, and that is what you are paying for after all.

Tim Bowen

03-10-2005, 10:15 PM

Well said, Mr. Hanky.

Tomo

03-10-2005, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by dkaplowitz
Those are great books. I have all of them and am trying to teach myself to fill in all the blanks in my slack reading skills.

Yes, they are. When I was a student.... of course I hated to
practice reading. But i only wanted to do music, so
after I graduated from Berklee, I started to study Bill's
book again... I just wanted to be able to read those
books anytime. I recommed to practice less than 1/3
hour everyday. Because if you practice too much..
you will skip .... so little by little and to continue is
key..I think. Tab is no all bad if you read music and
use tab for checking specific place..... one note many places.

For rhythm, I recommend to study Louice Bellson's
Modern reading text in 4/4. great book!

Tomo

jcground

03-14-2005, 03:16 PM

Great thread.

For me, tab and sheet music are both good for different things. A serious musician would be well advised to learn both. (And, in my experience, the best gigging session musicians can sightread both, as well as comp from chart.)

I learned to read standard notation when I took piano lessons as a kid. I picked up the guitar in high school without taking lessons. For that reason, it's still easy to tell which instrument I have more formal training on, though I like to tell people that I play both keys and guitar equally badly.

For me, though, playing has always been more about having fun, so theory (reading, scales, modes, the circle of 5ths, being able to analyze a symphony) quickly gets boring to me. I wish it didn't, because I'd be a lot better player if I had the fortitude to stick with the theory.

Sorry you had teachers to encouraged you to "cheat," but happy you've found a teacher who's a better match for your goals.

Jim

amstaf

03-18-2005, 08:35 AM

I can read music, I'm not terribly fast. I wish that I had a teacher at an early age that taught me to read. Since I didn't, I wish that Tab was available when I started playing back in 78.

harryjmic

03-18-2005, 02:30 PM

Both are valid but to me reading music is so much more valuable and if tab didn't exist I'm sure not many people would miss it. Tab is good when you want to know how some artist voiced a chord or where they played something on the neck. Other then that I find it of little use. I will admit it's better for reading chords though, I hate trying to figure out stacks of notes common with normal written material.

I had a teacher shortly after I first started playing who said to me, "If you want guitar lessons from me you will learn how to read music, if don't want to read music then go see someone else". I am so glad I went through the endless Berklee Melodic Rhythm routine. It went like this: 1st time, learning the exercise, 2nd time playing it on a different part of the guitar, 3rd time transposing the written key to whatever arbitrary key the teacher suggested for the week. I went through the first 35 exercises 3 times.

Do the transposition, for example take any jazz standard and play the tune in a different key then written. Play the tune changing every note on the fly, what a way to really learn. It would be similar to inviting a guest vocalist up on stage and then having them request something you have played forever in a key you never played it in before.

Once you can read music you can use almost any instrument to learn from, violin, bass, horns etc...there is so much written music you'll never run out.

darial

03-18-2005, 03:09 PM

Unfortunatly most teachers don't make their students learn to read because it turns away slacker students and as a result decreases their teachinbg income. I understand the teacher's perspective, but I will never understand students who want to be musically illiterate.

Lucidology

08-13-2007, 05:43 AM

Interesting indeed

dkaplowitz

08-13-2007, 05:59 AM

Interesting indeed
King of the ancient thread dredgers! ;)

Lucidology

08-13-2007, 06:15 AM

King of the ancient thread dredgers! ;)

In the archives, lies threads of value which much proceed
the worth of many posted in the present ... thus resurrection is in order... ;)

dkaplowitz

08-13-2007, 06:16 AM

In the archives, lies threads of value which much proceed
the worth of many posted in the present ... thus resurrection is in order... ;)
Indeed!

You're up late. Get a good batch of coffee? :cool:

Clifford-D

08-13-2007, 10:41 AM

whats the deal with TAB! its absolutly CRAP! after all these years of playing it feels like im totally starting over trying to learn how to read music! I dont think i could be any more pissed about it... im disgusted with all of my past teachers!

If they would have said.. STEP ONE.. learn to read.. i would have taken them VERY seriously. I always expressed the fact that i dont just want to learn songs.. or learn how to cheat my way on the guitar.. (which is what ive been doing).. I made it very clear i want to master guitar in the long term (lifetime).. i have only been reading for a month or so, and SO MUCH jumps out at me!! I cant belive i JUST NOW found a teacher that knows how to teach the instrument!

you dont see piano music with little keys marked off showing you where to press your fingers.. that would be STUPOD! and its JUST AS stupid to do so on guitar!!! im just as annoyed with myself.. i can only IMAGINE how much better i would be today had i just STARTED with the basics, rather then going back to it now... EVERYTHING makes so much more sense.. now that i can see what im playing on a staff in my head.. the way scales work (super basic) to the way i mixing modes with different scales to make my solos sound better... i would have never "seen" how they work together had i not attempted this!

just blowing steam... you have no idea how upset i really am (at myself especially) for not learning this stuff when i SHOULD have... and my teachers only encouraged me to FAKE IT and cHEAT!!! whats that all about!!!

for anyone that cares William Levitts (berklee press) "Reading Studies for Guitar", "Advanced Reading Studies for Guitar" "Modern Method for Guitar" "Melodic Rhythms for Guitar"

I picked up all of them. and they are nessecities to any guitarist that doesnt know how to read yet! they are working MAJIC on me... i hate them, because it takes you back to day one with the guitar... but if you grind it out, they are the BEST thing to ever happen to you! (at least me)
The purpose of TAB and notation is to put the data in your head.

Why be pissed off because you understand TAB better than notation?
Hopefully TAB has helped you understand note location.

Use that to your advantage.
Whether you like TAB or not, it can help you in reading.

I would say the glass is half full.

btw, I don't think reading for guitar is perfect. Reading guitar has many flaws.
Locations for one. There are multiple ways to play one note on our geetar.
That alone makes it more difficult than a more linear instrument
like piano or flute.
Guitar is a bit like have six pianos.

Notation was developed so different instruments can communicate
with each other by way of paper. It's not the perfect system for all instruments.
Just the the agreed upon common language.

Now the teacher thing you mentioned pisses me off. They don't sound like real teachers.
Many guitar "teachers" will skirt the issue of reading because they can't do it themselves.
They should be honest and and admit it so you can decide if they are the proper teacher.
But anyone can hang a shingle and say they are a teacher just because they can pick fast.
It happens far too much.

And that is a real shame.

I notice the same thing with Chiropracters. Many quacks and only a few true healers.
I needed a Chiropracter after an accident. It just blew my mind how many would greet you
saying they are the best in the area for my problem. And then they would hurt me because
my problem couldn't be fixed by a Chiropracter. I had a herniated disc.
Then they would almost kick me out... After they got my $$$
One day I went to a good Chiropracter that said he could not help me because he assumed it was a disc.
That was the beginning of my healing. I went to a Doctor and got surgery.

Guitar teachers will mislead you as well. Easy money.

A teacher I know will always direct his students into what he is comfortable with. Reggae or DooWop
Regardless what the student requests.

I'm glad that I don't do that, I'll get you on the path you seek.

Check out the teacher that gave lessons to Bill Frisell.

Most important, take responsibility for your learning.

:)

Rock Johnson

08-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Let's think about something...

Why does musical notation exist at all?

Simple - because the ancients didn't have tape recorders. Musical notation (of any variety) was created to 'record' music so that others could play a piece.

Tablature is, frankly, far better suited to guitar than musical notation is. A piano only has one fingering for any given chord, where a guitar has dozens. Tab helps sort that out.

Traditional notation is better for learning other instruments. It just depends on what you want to do.

dkaplowitz

08-13-2007, 02:30 PM

Traditional notation is better for learning other instruments. It just depends on what you want to do.
So what about the composer who wants to write parts for guitar, should he learn tab?

Who was the guitar player who was quoted about all the dates he's worked where not one of them was in tab?

Just sayin', tab's fine if that's how guitarists want to communicate with one another, but the rest of the world shouldn't be buggered to learn how to tab things out if they want to communicate with us. Plus there's that whole, annoying rhythm notation thing that most tab lacks.

Lucidology

08-13-2007, 04:46 PM

Indeed!

You're up late. Get a good batch of coffee? :cool:

Oh How funny (I didn't see this..) Just woke up at 2:35 PM

Yeah, I had two gigs Sunday.. the first one out of town...
after the second one was over I was so buzzed from the coffee
(which I love) & guarana herb ... sleep only hit me right when the sun was coming up ...
----------------------------------------------------------

Do studio work up & down the coast one to three times a week..
& never has anyone written a guitar part in Tab ...

DonW

08-13-2007, 05:54 PM

On a basic note (pun intended) tab was always cheaper than sheet music at the shop I worked at. It's another reason it's helpful.

Bussman

08-13-2007, 06:08 PM

So what about the composer who wants to write parts for guitar, should he learn tab?

...

...but the rest of the world shouldn't be buggered to learn how to tab things out if they want to communicate with us. Plus there's that whole, annoying rhythm notation thing that most tab lacks.

I worked with a bass player recently who can't read standard notation, so he asked me to provide TAB. I never used TAB much, but Lilypond has added that feature so I decided to humour him. I like Lilypond's implementation of it, it solves the rhythm dilemma quite nicely. I don't know how other notation software handle TAB and like I said, I'm not very familiar with TAB to begin with, this may be common knowledge but I found the experience interesting.

Sample Lilypond output:
http://www.dfp.ca/fileadmin/misc/LilypondSample_1.png

dkaplowitz

08-13-2007, 06:17 PM

I worked with a bass player recently who can't read standard notation, so he asked me to provide TAB. I never used TAB much, but Lilypond has added that feature so I decided to humour him. I like Lilypond's implementation of it, it solves the rhythm dilemma quite nicely. I don't know how other notation software handle TAB and like I said, I'm not very familiar with TAB to begin with, this may be common knowledge but I found the experience interesting.

Sample Lilypond output:
http://www.dfp.ca/fileadmin/misc/LilypondSample_1.png
Well cool, except you have the values of a measure of 3/4 inside a measure of 4/4 (common time), so you're missing a quarter note in each measure. (Well, it's confusing b/c you have a tied note into a measure on its own --- is that a whole note?) So in a way you've kinda' highlighted my gripe about rhythm being an afterthought in the tab world. ;)

But I feel you, I did say that "much" tab doesn't have rhythm notation. That some does have rhythm is a step in the right direction (still I'd just say get the pain of learning standard notation out of the way -- I really think it's easier to read than tab, but YMMV).

Bussman

08-13-2007, 06:58 PM

...still I'd just say get the pain of learning standard notation out of the way -- I really think it's easier to read than tab, but YMMV).

We're on the same page on that.

The shortcomings in the sample are certainly all my own and my unfamiliarity with TAB and it's implementation in Lilypond. I have revised this chart since that last printout, I'll post a snippet when I re-render. Everything has to be coded/rendered in Lilypond so I'm still learning.

<edit>I got the standard notation version of the chart under my eyes now. These bars haven't changed. The values are correct. The last note of bars 1 and 3 are half notes. Confusing indeed, I assume with TAB a little guess work is always needed. Still much better than the ASCII type TAB I'd been exposed to before. Like I said, a fun experiment.</edit>

Mike T

08-14-2007, 11:25 AM

whats the deal with TAB! its absolutly CRAP! after all these years of playing it feels like im totally starting over trying to learn how to read music! I dont think i could be any more pissed about it... im disgusted with all of my past teachers!

I agree and personally have no use for tab. It cheapens guitar music. Brings it down to the lowest common denominator level. Like McDonalds or the WalMart version of music study. Only there is literally no music involved. Like tom Hanks said at the end of "A League Of Their Own"... "It's supposed to be hard...if it was easy then everyone would do it" Well, now everyone thinks they're doing it.....

Bryan T

08-14-2007, 12:00 PM

I've never understood the either/or distinction between tab and standard notation. I like and use both, as well as chord diagrams, chord charts, numeric descriptions of scales, figured bass, and other types of notation. No one method is perfect for all situations.

Bryan

trisonic

08-14-2007, 12:05 PM

Well, since the OP has now been playing for 11 years instead of 9 maybe he learned to read music in the interim.
This thread is over two years old.......

Best, Pete.

Bryan T

08-14-2007, 12:06 PM

Well, since the OP has now been playing for 11 years instead of 9 maybe he learned to read music in the interim.
This thread is over two years old.......

Best, Pete.

Yet the discussion carries on . . . :)

Bryan

Clifford-D

08-16-2007, 11:35 AM

Guitar Josh

08-16-2007, 11:45 AM

You will always be cheated unless you use your own ear to figure out songs for yourself. In doing so, you will become a much better player and gain a better understanding of how songs work.

Clifford-D

08-16-2007, 12:59 PM

I agree and personally have no use for tab. It cheapens guitar music. Brings it down to the lowest common denominator level. Like McDonalds or the WalMart version of music study. Only there is literally no music involved. Like tom Hanks said at the end of "A League Of Their Own"... "It's supposed to be hard...if it was easy then everyone would do it" Well, now everyone thinks they're doing it.....
I just don't know if I can agree with you on

"music is suposed to be hard".

I know for a fact that some people learn

pretty darn easyly.

Take Julian Lage, played since he was 5, worked his tail off, but,,,
it all made sence to him and he could apply that in a free way to his playing.
He's been called a prodogy.
From my point of view it was not
hard for him, compared to me.

Me, on the other hand , I do find music hard.

What I know I own. All that's left for me to learn is the real advanced stuff.

I've come to the conclusion that I will never be a great reader.
No Tommy Tedesco here.
Reading chord notation is always a struggle. Can't do it in real time.
So I study it and get it down and then return to the performance.

If the same material was in tab with the rhythms attached, I would be able to read it in real time.

Sometimes I'll work out fingerings with tab.
I can hear in my mind what Tab sounds like. I don't have to play the guitar.
I can't do that with notation as well.

I'm just glad so much data is out there.

jcmusic

08-16-2007, 01:19 PM

Funny thing but I once met an orchestra player who said she didn't understand how a guitarist could just "jam" and that she couldn't play if she didn't have sheet music in front of her.

Anyway, plenty of great players who don't read.

Mike T

08-16-2007, 03:36 PM

I just don't know if I can agree with you on

"music is suposed to be hard".

I know for a fact that some people learn

pretty darn easyly.

Yes, some people do learn easily. But it is the same for almost everything. Quantum physics may be tricky but if you have knack for it it is that much easier. But to be a renowned and respected player, there is a maintenance factor of your sanity involved. Dealing with people and all that goes along with it. Somehow, some facet of the whole enchilada is going to be hard. You may learn easily and quickly, look at Emily Remler, but then dealing with all that goes along with it is another story. So yes, music may not be "meant" to be hard in the respect of the physical aspects of the actual mechanics of playing, but to carry the responsibility that goes along with it, well, I stand by "If it was meant to be easy then everyone would be doing it".

IanS

08-16-2007, 11:00 PM

... i have only been reading for a month or so, and SO MUCH jumps out at me!!

.. i can only IMAGINE how much better i would be today had i just STARTED with the basics, rather then going back to it now... EVERYTHING makes so much more sense.. now that i can see what im playing on a staff in my head.. the way scales work (super basic) to the way i mixing modes with different scales to make my solos sound better... i would have never "seen" how they work together had i not attempted this!

...

I don't really understand how learning to read standard notation has such a profound impact? I can understand if I was trying to earn a living as a session musician, as it is a tool of the trade. But I do not understand how reading can help general musicianship (except to vastly expand the universe of available instructional works).

I've been trying to decide where to put my time and effort (at my age, it must be rationed). I have come to the realization that ear training, and trying to hear changes is paramount. I am also learning as much basic theory as I can to help me in this process: knowing where all the notes are on the fretboard, how to find all the intervals from a root, knowing which note (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th etc..) is on the high string. I've also been trying to learn two different 3 and 4 note chords rooted on each string, using frets above the root, and below. I also spend some time working scales, flowing up and down the fretboard.

I also spend time reading rhythms and doing rhythm studies. 'Modern Reading Text in 4/4: For All Instruments' by Bellson, along with Tomo's studies are great for this. I really enjoy this part of my practice. So I can understand how reading rhythm is critical. Most of the instructional books I use have both notations, and I have always used the standard notation for reading the rhythm. But I really do not understand what more would 'open up' to me if I invested the time in learning to read notes in standard notation? What am I missing out on?

Thanks.

dkaplowitz

08-17-2007, 05:19 AM

I also spend time reading rhythms and doing rhythm studies. 'Modern Reading Text in 4/4: For All Instruments' by Bellson, along with Tomo's studies are great for this. I really enjoy this part of my practice. So I can understand how reading rhythm is critical. Most of the instructional books I use have both notations, and I have always used the standard notation for reading the rhythm. But I really do not understand what more would 'open up' to me if I invested the time in learning to read notes in standard notation? What am I missing out on?
If you're already reading out of Bellson's book (and enjoying it) I think spending up to 20 minutes (no more than that really) a day learning the notes will be a blast for you.

What you're missing out on is a lot of the theory that you learn while learning this stuff, being able to rapidly pick up information from a piece of paper, being able to make music from a piece of paper (whether it was written for the guitar or for the oboe), the independence you get while reading a piece of music and following the musical directions/cues for stuff like switching from song section to song section, dynamics, fingering suggestions (in some cases), picking directions (in some cases), etc. etc. ---all while trying to remember it's about making music while you follow all these visual cues, etc. What I've really enjoyed about it is taking a looping pedal and playing duets while I practice. You can play some pretty cool stuff even at a beginner/intermediate level of reading.

Anyway, you can be a great musician without reading, but reading really makes learning all kinds of music so much easier. The better I get at reading (and I still suck at it) the more I see what a shortcut it is to learning stuff, and something that solidifies my ability to communicate with other (non-guitar playing) musicians.

yZe

08-17-2007, 06:37 AM

Excellent OP !!

I will be reading that verbatim to all my students next week

Mike T

08-17-2007, 08:17 AM

I don't really understand how learning to read standard notation has such a profound impact? .

For one thing it opens you up to all other non-guitar music. I don't know what it it is you would like to be able to play, but regardless, exposure to for example saxaphone exercises will give you another whole way of seeing lines and hearing phrasing. Trying to voice chords written for piano on guitar will open you up. There are many books written for all instruments and these are notated in standard notation. There is much music written beyond guitar music. I will guarantee you that any great player has studied much, much more than just music for guitar. Even if they don't read, they listened to and transcribed at least by ear non-guitar music. You can do that I guess. But it is much more efficient to be able to read music. I can't sight read complex lines, but I can play three times as many tunes that I am familiar with if have a lead sheet in front of me. If you wish to compose, then it is an invaluable tool. If you wish to use sofware like "Band In A Box", then standard notation is the language you need to know. If you are in any way serious about understanding and playjng music, I just can't see any way around having at least a basic knowledge of standard notation.

JDandCoke

08-18-2007, 05:07 PM

i have to use both in the ideal world.

i use the TAB mostly for the notes/techniques (bends etc) and its also handy so if you get yourself in a tangle in some higher postions just to glance down at tab and you can correct yourself.

but i need the notation for rhythms, i think thats the biggest downfall from TAB.

i dont think id be able to accurately sight read anything that used one or the other.

i am working on sight reading with notation though.
(fwiw i can read notation fine through conducting orchestras and the like! i just havnt interpreted it to guitar)