Brown and Blackface Amp Sudoku...

[GTRJohnny]

Help me solve this amp shopping puzzle, it's fun! :beer

I have pretty much decided that if I'm using pedals for low-volume practicing and playing, I am going with either...

Carr Rambler
Headstrong Verbrovibe
Headstrong Lil' King S


But, if I was going to give up on pedals, and needed the amp for light overdrive, that could change things. If that were the case, I would need a great sounding Brown/BF amp with its own drive. So far, I have the following...

Two-Rock Classic
Rivera
Allen
???

[Jahn]

My solution was to go for the Pro Reverb for cleans and low volume pedal OD. The bigger the power, the more "big" your cleans, plus it makes for a great pedal platform. I can keep the Pro Reverb at 2.5 on the volume and get whatever I need either clean or using a pedalboard. rarely dare cranking the Pro Reverb to 4.5, where the OD lives, since it gets to window busting volumes.

But if you want to use an amp's OD, I'd go smaller and angrier. Used to have a tweed princeton for this, now i have a Vox AC10 Twin. You can totally crank it and still be pals with the neighbors. GREAT recording amps for natural OD. doesn't like pedals tho.

So there you go, the exact opposite of your idea hehe! Big iron for low volume cleans and pedal use, small iron for killer recording amp OD.

[dapa78]

I went with a solution that kind of straddles both sides - I had a vari-watt installed in my Headstrong Lil King (not the S), which allows me to get overdriven, cranked BF tones at basement volumes without any pedals. Skip Menicos did the install for me - same circuit used in Twister Dust Devils. (http://twisteramps.com/VariWatt.html). With the vari-watt dimed, the Headstrong is also a great pedal platform.

[GTRJohnny]

My solution was to go for the Pro Reverb for cleans and low volume pedal OD. The bigger the power, the more "big" your cleans, plus it makes for a great pedal platform. I can keep the Pro Reverb at 2.5 on the volume and get whatever I need either clean or using a pedalboard. rarely dare cranking the Pro Reverb to 4.5, where the OD lives, since it gets to window busting volumes.

But if you want to use an amp's OD, I'd go smaller and angrier. Used to have a tweed princeton for this, now i have a Vox AC10 Twin. You can totally crank it and still be pals with the neighbors. GREAT recording amps for natural OD. doesn't like pedals tho.

So there you go, the exact opposite of your idea hehe! Big iron for low volume cleans and pedal use, small iron for killer recording amp OD.

:beer I do like a bigger amp running low for cleans - difference is that a Verbrovibe is a big amp to me. :D I hardly ever use 40w anymore.

Isn't the BF Pro close to a Brown Vibroverb? I always get confused by which Fender amps were basically the same thing with different speakers.

I also agree on the small amp cranked. I mostly use my Clark Deluxe for that. It makes a great overdriven tone. I also can crank my Budda, but it's LOUD for 18w.

I'm still chasing that slightly broken up BF clean tone. My problem is that amps with two channels tend to go from squeaky cleans on the clean channel to Eddie Van Halen on the overdrive channel. That's cool, but the clean never drives enough and OD drives too much.

So, there I am at a BF amp w/pedals. Unless I have an extra 5k for a Two-Rock. Um... no, unless I want to live outdoors. ;)

[GTRJohnny]

I went with a solution that kind of straddles both sides - I had a vari-watt installed in my Headstrong Lil King (not the S), which allows me to get overdriven, cranked BF tones at basement volumes without any pedals. Skip Menicos did the install for me - same circuit used in Twister Dust Devils. (http://twisteramps.com/VariWatt.html). With the vari-watt dimed, the Headstrong is also a great pedal platform.

Sounds like a cool option. So, basically you can overdrive the preamp section and turn down the power section? Of is the power section overdriving also?

Does the vari-watt mess with the tone much? And, how's the noise level?

Also, is the Lil' King S basically the same as the Lil' King, if you're running 6V6's in it? I would imagine "close", but with a slightly beefier OT and speaker?

[GTRJohnny]

bump...

[62Tele]

Blackface amps are simple - they all have pretty much the same tone, you just pick the wattage you want to get you the breakup you're after at a given volume. PR and DR - breakup at band volume, Vibrolux more headroom, Pro or Super a little more and a Twin Reverb about as much headroom as you can get out of a Fender. Brown amps are pretty much the same idea - Brown Deluxe is kind of a little Marshall sound, Brown Super (2x10) is about perfect as a blues amp at typical bar volumes. Blackface amps will generally have more headroom than their brown counterparts.

Otherwise you need either an attenuator, master volume, or one of the newer designs with a variable power switch.

I you want a nice amp to run with your Tweed Deluxe, a Vibrolux is stellar, but not a great amp for breakup at house volumes. A good workhorse solution that has a master volume, can run various power tubes, has headroom at band volumes and can dial in blackface tones and more is an Allen Accomplice. I actually prefer the Brown Sugar, but for what I think you're describing, the Accomplice might be a little more low volume friendly. The Brown Sugar is really a club amp.

[GTRJohnny]

Blackface amps are simple - they all have pretty much the same tone, you just pick the wattage you want to get you the breakup you're after at a given volume. PR and DR - breakup at band volume, Vibrolux more headroom, Pro or Super a little more and a Twin Reverb about as much headroom as you can get out of a Fender. Brown amps are pretty much the same idea - Brown Deluxe is kind of a little Marshall sound, Brown Super (2x10) is about perfect as a blues amp at typical bar volumes. Blackface amps will generally have more headroom than their brown counterparts.

Otherwise you need either an attenuator, master volume, or one of the newer designs with a variable power switch.

I you want a nice amp to run with your Tweed Deluxe, a Vibrolux is stellar, but not a great amp for breakup at house volumes. A good workhorse solution that has a master volume, can run various power tubes, has headroom at band volumes and can dial in blackface tones and more is an Allen Accomplice. I actually prefer the Brown Sugar, but for what I think you're describing, the Accomplice might be a little more low volume friendly. The Brown Sugar is really a club amp.

I like a little velvet around the edges of my high notes. I think that puts me more into mid-sized transformers. I think the small stuff will be too mushy and the big stuff too "stiff" sounding. I was thinking the Verbrovibe or Rambler would both work. I'd love to be able to try the VV first, but no such luck. I know I like the Rambler, so that might win. I dig the cathode-biased sound. The Brown Sugar would be a cool option for just gigging, but I'd like to be able to scale it down. I will take another look at the Accomplice... :)

[mcinku]

Ceriatone just released a new amp which based on a BF Princetone.
http://www.ceriatone.com/productSubPages/PrinzeTone/PrinzeToneMain.htm
...and if 16W is not enough you could ask Nik to install bigger trannies, so you could run 6L6 tubes.

[GTRJohnny]

Looking at the Brown Sugar again... so bump! :)

[62Tele]

Dude, really. Get a Brown Sugar. It can be a 6V6, 6L6 or El34 amp. It can sound blackface, brown or tweed. Put the bigger OT on it and it can give any Bassman I've ever played a serious talking to. If you're still on the Brown/Blackface fence it gets no better. Or at least I haven't found it. If David would make an 80 watt version I'd buy one of those too. I tried to get him to make a 20 watt version but he said it can't happen for technical reasons.

Since you started this thread I picked up a Clark Kanee. Not as many tonal options as the Brown Sugar, comes in around 20 watts. Great little amp, really well built. Just one more to think about!

[GTRJohnny]

I picked up a Clark Kanee. Not as many tonal options as the Brown Sugar, comes in around 20 watts. Great little amp, really well built. Just one more to think about!

Okay, no adding to my list! ;) I have had this stalker thing going with the Brown Sugar for a while. I think it's down to that, a Beaufort Reverb, or a Rambler for me. I have to decide how important onboard trem is to me...

[gstan]

Help me solve this amp shopping puzzle, it's fun! :beer

I have pretty much decided that if I'm using pedals for low-volume practicing and playing, I am going with either...

Carr Rambler
Headstrong Verbrovibe
Headstrong Lil' King S


But, if I was going to give up on pedals, and needed the amp for light overdrive, that could change things. If that were the case, I would need a great sounding Brown/BF amp with its own drive. So far, I have the following...

Two-Rock Classic
Rivera
Allen
???


Red Plate BlackVerb, go to the site, listen to the site clips, then go to some of the YouTube vids. Resistance is futile. If this amp doesn't hit it out of the park for you then you got a problem. Neither Rivera nor Allen make anything that can touch it IMHO. My most recent quest that led me to order a BlackVerb was a result of my wanting to be able to go back to pedal-less for some gigs and to run a killer dual set up with my Fargen BlackBird for other gigs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu9LVuGl8ho
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58406191
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58397440
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58553562http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=57792292

As to your first list, the Rambler and Verbrovibe aren't exactly what I would put in the low volume category, both are capable of getting quite loud.

[GTRJohnny]

Red Plate BlackVerb, go to the site, listen to the site clips, then go to some of the YouTube vids. Resistance is futile. If this amp doesn't hit it out of the park for you then you got a problem. Neither Rivera nor Allen make anything that can touch it IMHO. My most recent quest that led me to order a BlackVerb was a result of my wanting to be able to go back to pedal-less for some gigs and to run a killer dual set up with my Fargen BlackBird for other gigs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu9LVuGl8ho
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58406191
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58397440
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58553562http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=57792292

As to your first list, the Rambler and Verbrovibe aren't exactly what I would put in the low volume category, both are capable of getting quite loud.


Cool! I will check it out. I have to say that you are not the first to suggest that amp. I was originally turned off by the look (some models look a little wild to me) but the tones seem really good, from what I've heard.

I didn't mean to put the Rambler and VV into a low volume category. I meant they were amps that I would have to use pedals with to get overdrive, if using them at lower volumes. The others had their own overdrive channel for practice levels.

I have kinda given up on needing the amp to produce its own low-vol drive. I am more interested in great response and feel-based overdrive at louder levels.

My current list is:

- Carr Rambler
- Allen Brown Sugar
- Clark BF Beaufort Reverb
- Headstrong Verbrovibe

The idea of the Rambler with a Neo speaker is really starting to appeal to me. I find the Rambler a little stiff in response, but am not sure how much of that is the standard speaker (Wizard). I also see the Rambler as having no wasted features - I would use everything it has. The only disadvantage is a lack of an external speaker jack. But, I never use the one on my Clark, so no big whoop.

The Brown Sugar is cool, but I haven't had a chance to play it. The sound files are an interesting mix of Brown, BF, and Tweed. Size is good, weight is "okay". Not sure how much I'd use the Raw control. And, big disadvantage for me would be the lack of a Brown Trem.

The Clark I know will be well made. I'm not sure it's enough vol for what I need. The other question is flexability - with the lack of a Mid control. I'm sure it's a bluesy sounding amp, but BF designs are sometimes too scooped for me, and there wouldn't be anything I could do about that besides swapping speakers and tubes.

The Headstrong sounds like a really cool option. The only thing would be weight and cost. I have heard sound files and really nail what I am looking for tone-wise. It's a very cool option, with enough punch. There is also a shortage of info on these, so it's more of a risk to dive in at that price.

I took the Two-Rock and Carol-Ann off the list for price. I am also shooting for a more "Fender" vibe. Both of these amps are brilliant, but both have some attributes that make them less of a good match.

[GTRJohnny]

Red Plate BlackVerb... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu9LVuGl8ho
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58406191
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58397440
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58553562http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=57792292


I'll have to listen to these again on my studio headphones. First listen online the amp has a lot of cut in the mids (like a half-cocked wah). I can see that working live, but not sure how that would gel with me for practicing, long-term. I think I'd be reaching to tone that down pretty quickly.

It sounds like they might be going a bit "fusiony" with their EQ. I absolutely hate the clip on their Models page by Matt McCloskey with a Black Verb. It is exactly what I would never want any amp I own to sound like. Sorry to be harsh, but that mid-focused tone is totally not me. I'm not sure how much of that is the player, rig, or amp, so I can't judge. But, it's not a good introduction to their amps for me. I hear a bit of that character in most of the clips you listed. I'm also not hearing any warm bottom-end, but I'll check it out later on some better speakers...

[gstan]

He's definitely going for a bit of "D" in the drive. Do listen on a good set of phones or better speakers, I'm hearing plenty of bottom, my reference for bottom is my Fargen BlackBird 40 which has a huge low end.
If you're not a fan of Carlton, Ford or Beck I can see how some of the clips would turn you off. But like you said, that probably has a lot to do with the way the player dialed in the tone and the recording technique.

One thing we don't know is whether these versions had the "raw" control on the Bass pot, essentially a switch that takes the bass pot out lets more mids and upper mids thru.

Also note that all the guitar parts were played thru the amp identified for the clip, not just the leads with drive.

[GTRJohnny]

If you're not a fan of Carlton, Ford or Beck I can see how some of the clips would turn you off. But like you said, that probably has a lot to do with the way the player dialed in the tone and the recording technique.

One thing we don't know is whether these versions had the "raw" control on the Bass pot, essentially a switch that takes the bass pot out lets more mids and upper mids thru.

Also note that all the guitar parts were played thru the amp identified for the clip, not just the leads with drive.

Yeah, sometimes I'm at the other end of the spectrum from how some players setup their mids. I wouldn't fully discount the amp, until having a chance to kick it around for a while.

I've noticed that a lot of higher-end amps favor the Calton/Ford sort of thing. For those of us that are not digging it, it's often hard to tune it out of a given amp. It's gotten to the point where when I hear even a bit of it, I start running the other way, which isn't fair to the designer or the amp. But, it sometimes saves a lot of time explaining why I don't like something that they find incredibly cool...

[gstan]

One correction to my last post, the switch on the bass pot takes the entire tone stack out of the circuit.

Yep, the Dumble-esque theme runs deep in certain sectors of the high end amp community. The BlackVerb is designed to be a great BF amp first and formost but it also traces its lineage to the cleaner D subspecies.

As to the mids, I suspect that the tone stack is active enough to let you scoop the mids in a big way. With my Fargen I usually run the mid knob 80% CCW to fully CCW to scoop the mids as much as possible and I expect to do the same with the BlackVerb. Henry told me that the Blackverb tonestack is voiced such that he recommends you start with all the pots at noon when you are first working with it with each style of guitar, and to not assume that the tonestack is going to behave like other BF tonestacks where controls have a narrow or limited ability to affect their assigned frequencies.

Of course the other thing is that if you decide to get a Redplate Henry is going to want to know about your guitars, styles of music you play, and what you are looking for in the amp and he will suggest tweaks to get the voicing right for you.