Avatar 2x12 too boomy!

[telewacker]

I mentioned this in the Guytron appreciation thread. At least with this amp the Avatar is too boomy and unbalanced with mid frequencies, no matter what speakers I've tried. Anyone know of a cab that will emphasize mids more and bottom less? I'm guessing something shallower front to back. Hopefully I can find something of a comparable value so I don't have to lose $$. I'm inthe Bay Area and willing to trade with someone if you're interested.

[IPlayHamers]

Originally posted by telewacker
I mentioned this in the Guytron appreciation thread. At least with this amp the Avatar is too boomy and unbalanced with mid frequencies, no matter what speakers I've tried. Anyone know of a cab that will emphasize mids more and bottom less? I'm guessing something shallower front to back. Hopefully I can find something of a comparable value so I don't have to lose $$. I'm inthe Bay Area and willing to trade with someone if you're interested.

I've never had the problem you mentioned with my Avatar cabs, but I'm using very forward sounding amps (Marshall, VHT, etc.) I hear the Guytron cabs sound pretty amazing. I'd also check out Dr. Z ZBest. Blockhead cabs are great for more vintage tones.

BTW, what type(s) of music do you play? Guitars?, Efeects, etc? What sound are you going for?

Hope this helps.

[Sudsysul]

It has little panache and gets scorned here on occasion, but for Marshall type amps, a good old Marshall 1936 will do exactly what you request - control the bottom better vs. the Avatar. It's the particle board, dampens it down very well IMO. Mine is less efficient and grinds quicker than my Avatar with identical speakers, so if your amp's a 100, this could be a plus too.

They're all over the place and cheap.. just pull the 75T's they come with and stick some V30's and or H30's in there.

The Avatar definitely has a lot of bass, but I confess that I've grown to like the sound quite a bit.

[telewacker]

Originally posted by IPlayHamers
I've never had the problem you mentioned with my Avatar cabs, but I'm using very forward sounding amps (Marshall, VHT, etc.) I hear the Guytron cabs sound pretty amazing. I'd also check out Dr. Z ZBest. Blockhead cabs are great for more vintage tones.

BTW, what type(s) of music do you play? Guitars?, Efeects, etc? What sound are you going for?

Hope this helps.

I play a Tele and my style is blues based. The Guytron tone controls are subtle... I expect with most amps you could roll off sufficient bottom to counteract the problem, but there isn't enough sweep in the Gt100s bass control.

I tried the head with a V30 in a 1x12 and had a much better mix of mids (more) and bass (less), but I'd prefer 2- 12s for better headroom.

[Scott Peterson]

Contact Guy at Guytron and get his opinion. guy@guytron.com

[IPlayHamers]

Originally posted by telewacker
I play a Tele and my style is blues based. The Guytron tone controls are subtle... I expect with most amps you could roll off sufficient bottom to counteract the problem, but there isn't enough sweep in the Gt100s bass control.

I tried the head with a V30 in a 1x12 and had a much better mix of mids (more) and bass (less), but I'd prefer 2- 12s for better headroom.

This may sound crazy, but I'd try a Blue and a greenback in your 212. The Blue would take care of the mids and make that Tele sound really creamy, with more chime. The Greenback would handle upper mids. You'd have to watch your voilume though so you don't blow the speakers.

Another alternative would be to go with a Greenback and a Weber Blue Dog if you needed more power handling.

Also, concider trying some Jensens. Since you play blues, they might be the ticket.

[telewacker]

Originally posted by IPlayHamers
This may sound crazy, but I'd try a Blue and a greenback in your 212. The Blue would take care of the mids and make that Tele sound really creamy, with more chime. The Greenback would handle upper mids. You'd have to watch your voilume though so you don't blow the speakers.

Another alternative would be to go with a Greenback and a Weber Blue Dog if you needed more power handling.

Also, concider trying some Jensens. Since you play blues, they might be the ticket.

I've used a Red fang + G12h30, 2 Weber p12ns, and a V30+G12h30. The last combination sounded the best of the three, but a single V30 in a Deluxe cab sounded the most balanced, that's why I think I need a different 2x12 cab.

The amp already compresses a lot, so the Alnicos didn't work out, although I love them in my vintage Fender amps.

[IPlayHamers]

Perhaps a Guytron 212 with a V30 and a G12H-30 would do the trick?

[johnc]

I'm thinking that you need to get the smallest, narrowest, open-back 2-12 cabinet that you can find to approach the sound of a 1-12 DR. When I say narrow, I mean "not deep" from front to back. I've found the deeper the cabinet the more bass it has.

I think if I were you I'd contact Bob Burt.

[telewacker]

Originally posted by johnc
I'm thinking that you need to get the smallest, narrowest, open-back 2-12 cabinet that you can find to approach the sound of a 1-12 DR. When I say narrow, I mean "not deep" from front to back. I've found the deeper the cabinet the more bass it has.

I think if I were you I'd contact Bob Burt.


Not to suggest that the 1x12 Deluxe cab is the ultimate sound for this amp, just that it was free of the over emphasized low frequencies. But yes, I'm thinking along the lines of a smaller volume cab, or maybe two 1x12s.

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful advice. I think the Avatar, good a cab as it is, just would work better with a different amp.

[HeeHaw]

I thought my 1936 was wayboomy incomparison with the Avatars I own.:confused:

[Sudsysul]

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=599717#post599717

We got into a discussion above about a 1936 vs. the Avatar, and I was surprised at the results. I posted that I found the 1936 "more compressed and more controlled." YMMV of course.:)

[fullerplast]

I heard an Avatar 2x12 cab for the first time at the tonefest this past weekend. It had a pair of Greenbacks and was hooked up to a GDS 18W clone. The match was extremely good IMHO, one of the best 18W's I've heard. No boominess, just well balanced.

One difference was that the owner back mounted the speakers, instead of the normal front mounting that Avatar does stock. I don't know if that would have much of an effect on boominess (actually I doubt it), but you may want to try it.

Your experience is probably just a case of the amp EQ, cabinet EQ, and speaker EQ's all just being too reinforced in the low end, rather than complementary. I suspect you still may be able to find speakers that work for you (you've only scratched the surface of possibilities), but certainly another cabinet could also do the trick. You could also try a closed back on the Avatar to reduce the boominess and tighten it up.

[Matt Gordon]

All 2X12's sound funny in the midrange to me, compared to a 4X12 that is. They're are either boxy, or unclear in the mids. I have to do a huge EQ adjustment from a 4X12 to a 2X12. After the EQing, everything is cool. Might try twisting those knobs a little more! :D

[HeeHaw]

I rear mounted my speakers in my avatar and cannot tell too much of a difference difference. It's an open back cab anyways, so that may have something to do with it.

[gkelm]

Originally posted by telewacker
I mentioned this in the Guytron appreciation thread. At least with this amp the Avatar is too boomy and unbalanced with mid frequencies, no matter what speakers I've tried. Anyone know of a cab that will emphasize mids more and bottom less? I'm guessing something shallower front to back. Hopefully I can find something of a comparable value so I don't have to lose $$. I'm inthe Bay Area and willing to trade with someone if you're interested.

Really like my Avy. Is yours open or closed back? I'd think the open might be boomier, so maybe close it up?
Greg

[cr8z4life]

I honestly think what you are reacting to is the open back, which is what most Avatars are.....I have one open back Avatar and I am going to order a closed back from them.......I like the open back with v12 's for a cleaner chimey tone and the closed back with g12h30 and v30 for classic rock tighter tones

[Tom CT]

Originally posted by telewacker
the Avatar is too boomy and unbalanced with mid frequencies, no matter what speakers I've tried.

Move the cabinet away from the wall. I'm serious - if it's in a "music room", that can be the culprit right there.

[6AM]

I can't believe someone hasn't mentioned it yet, but to make a close backed cab (assuming that's what it is) less boomy the easiest thing to do is to insulate it.

Get a piece of insulation or cotton batting and glue it to the back (and if you’re still not happy, the sides).

[telewacker]

There ain't no more knob to twist! The bass is rolled all the way down. As I mentioned the tone controls on this amp have a very small range of amplitude compared to any other amp I'm familiar with.

I believe it is a combination of the voicing of the amp's eq and the resonant peak of the cab. There's a huge peak at low C on the neck pup.

Interesting comment about 2x12 relative to 4x12....too bad a 4x12 won't fit in my trunk, LOL!

I know I've just scratched the surface with drivers, but I play for a living and buying equipment is expensive! I can't afford to spend any more $$ right now. The amp does sound really good with a single V30, so if need be I'll just parlay the Avatar into a couple of 1x12s.

I just got an offer to swap the Celes for a pair of Emi Stonehenges. Anyone know what these speaker's characteristics are?

[telewacker]

It's an open back, it's not against the wall. I tried stuffing it with an old comforter just to see if that would help. It didn't. I'll try closing it up and then adding dampening material. Wish I had another V30 to throw in there . I just sold one two weeks ago:rolleyes:

Anyone in the Bay Area want to trade one + $30 for a new Red Fang?

[johnny5]

Originally posted by telewacker
It's an open back, it's not against the wall. I tried stuffing it with an old comforter just to see if that would help. It didn't. I'll try closing it up and then adding dampening material. Wish I had another V30 to throw in there . I just sold one two weeks ago:rolleyes:

Anyone in the Bay Area want to trade one + $30 for a new Red Fang?

i live in oakland and think i could part with one of my V30's for the Red fang trade.

pm me and we will work something out.

[roknfnrol]

Aren't avatar cabinets plywood? :confused:

[HeeHaw]

Originally posted by ringmod
Aren't avatar cabinets plywood? :confused: Most cabs are plywood. Be it Baltic birch or otherwise. High end cabs can be made of pine and maybe exotic woods.

[telewacker]

Problem solved. I sold the Avatar and got a JDesign open back 2x12 made out of PINE and 2.5" shallower, 1" less in height. Way more balanced!! Like night and day. I put a Mullard CV4004 in the first stage of Channel a in the GT100 and I'm getting a spectacular clean tone with the Tele...the best country twang I've ever got, including my BF, SF Fenders and even my 59 tweed Bassman I sold 10 years ago like an idiot. I ordered a NOS GE JAN 5751 to try in the EL84 phase splitter position. We'll see how it works. Still not sure about the Channel B tube yet...the Mullard didn't work in that position. Any ideas on what to try?

[bob p]

I ran into the same problem with the Avatar 2x12 "fender style" closed-back cabinet being WAY TOO BOOMY with a pair of Greenbacks. Its funny that some people notice it as being a real problem while others don't. Some of it may be attributable to the design of your amp.

I hate to paint with a wide brush by making generalized statements, but one reason that this cab combo may sound better with a Marshall type amp than with a Fender is because the amps are voiced differently. Most of the Marshall type amps have tonestacks that are voiced for a closed back cab, and the inherent sonic effects that it brings to the table. Fenders, in contrast, are typically voiced for open-backed cabs. As a result, when you hook a Marshall head up to an Avatar cab, the results might be exactly what you're looking for, while with a Fender amp you'll wish that you had a bass control that went lower than zero.

I'm currently wrestling with this problem with a new pair of Greenbacks in an Avatar closed-back 2x12. The GB speaker has an Fs of 75 Hz, and the box also appears to have a resonant frequency in the 150 Hz range. Superimposing these on one another, the bass is way to boomy with all of my Fender style amps, including my Mesa Mk IV.

I've found that I can compensate for the exaggerated bass response in the closed-back cabinet configuration with the Mk IV's 80 Hz EQ slider. Unfortunately, not all of my amps have EQ, so my hand often ends up being forced into throwing an EQ stopbox into the signal chain -- a less than optimal solution.

The other option is to convert the cabinet into an open-backed configuration, but that's not a particularly good solution for speakers like Greenbacks, which tend to mush out at higher volume levels in an open-backed cab.

One other approach that I had been considering is adding batting to 3 adjacent walls of the cabinet to shift the box's resonant frequency downward. If all else fails I have considered converting the cabinet to a Thiele-Small array -- that would allow precise control of the tuning of the cabinet -- unfortunately, Celestion refuses to give out T-S parameters for their speakers, and this makes an intellectual approach to the problem difficult.

[muddeone]

are we talking OPEN or CLOSED back here?

[bob p]

that would depend on whose post you're reading. :jo

[Lou Brush]

I can't believe someone hasn't mentioned it yet, but to make a close backed cab (assuming that's what it is) less boomy the easiest thing to do is to insulate it.

Get a piece of insulation or cotton batting and glue it to the back (and if you’re still not happy, the sides).

That's exactly what I did with my 2x12 Avatar closed-back cab w/ V30s. I just insulated the inside back of my cab. Without the insulation, the sound tended to bounce around in the cab too much resulting in a boomy tone. I'm surprised more peeps don't do this simple mod to their Avatar cabs. I got the idea from my '64 Bandmaster cab... go figure.

[pepperco]

Side note......

Get the cab up off the floor for less boom and rumble.

My Avatar 2 by 12 lives on a movers dolly....YMMV.

[bob p]

That's exactly what I did with my 2x12 Avatar closed-back cab w/ V30s. I just insulated the inside back of my cab. Without the insulation, the sound tended to bounce around in the cab too much resulting in a boomy tone. I'm surprised more peeps don't do this simple mod to their Avatar cabs. I got the idea from my '64 Bandmaster cab... go figure.
Can you tell me how much batting you had to add to take care of the problem? I've got a closedback Avatar 2x12 with Greenbacks and the boom is driving me batty. I guess I'm going to have to make a trip to the fabric store to buy some batting and stuff the box. Did you end up filling the box, adding batting to 3 sides, how thick did you make it, etc. Thanks!

[guitarobert]

Can you tell me how much batting you had to add to take care of the problem? I've got a closedback Avatar 2x12 with Greenbacks and the boom is driving me batty. I guess I'm going to have to make a trip to the fabric store to buy some batting and stuff the box. Did you end up filling the box, adding batting to 3 sides, how thick did you make it, etc. Thanks!

I've been experimenting with this as well with an Avatar 2x12 closed back cab. I bought 1" thick poly-fill type foam (for use in a mattress) from a local craft store. I glued it to the entire back of the cab, both sides, and the bottom.

The difference is night and day! I can peg the bass to max on all settings (amp, EQ, and using neck pickup) and the cabinet can handle it without becoming boomy. Only problem is, it has lost a bit of resonance.

I'm now considering removing the foam on one of the sides, so I would only have it on the back, bottom, and one side. If you're interested I'll report back on how that sounds.

[CitizenCain]

Get an adapter and stick a 10" in one of the speaker positions.

[prsnstrat]

Really like my Avy. Is yours open or closed back? I'd think the open might be boomier, so maybe close it up?
Greg

I've found that closed back cabs sound boomier. Different strokes...

[Mr. Brady]

I've found that closed back cabs sound boomier. Different strokes...

I've got one of the Avatar 2x12 specials with V30 and g12h30 combo. I have an close back and an open back panel for the cab. I like the open back better.

The closed back on that cab just sounds too boomy and my frequency was interfering with the bass frequency from my bassists bass cabs. I went back to open back and this cleared it up. I also like the clean tones much more with an open back. The cleans are warmer, and fuller with the open back configuration.

[Jamie]

I have an Avatar 2x12 and I've never had a boom issue. Don't be afraid to really kill the bass knob. If it doesn't work, you could try switching to open back. If that doesn't work..... maybe a 410? I have a boogie open back 4x10. certainly no boom issue in there.