Getting tired of folks dissin' the blues!!!

[terrapin]

Anyone else get a bit tired and perplexed by folks essentially dismissing the vital importance and contribution of the blues? Sometimes it is covert, other times ignorantly overt, but it is there. Seems like guitar players can be the worst.

I fully realize it is not the end all of much of the music we treasure, but WHERE would that same music be without the blues as a major component? Would Led Zeppelin have been the Led Zepplin we know and love? This can be expanded to include everyone from the Beatles to Nirvana! Add to that where would Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, John Coltrane... have been without a grounding in the blues tradition? I could go on and on...

As a guitar player I realize and appreciate my grounding in the blues in all its forms....country,folk,rock,jazz.

I certainly don't want to get locked into I,IV,V chord patterns or blues scales, but I do acknowledge and appreciate that the blues are somewhere in everything we play!

OK, I am done ranting..............

[nmiller]

I'm not thrilled by jamming to the same 12 bars for an hour and a half like some folks are, and sometimes I conclude that I just don't care for the blues. Then "She Caught the Katy" comes up on shuffle and I remember otherwise. I'm pretty sure that Taj can convert any non-believer. :phones

[musikluvr2]

Anyone else get a bit tired and perplexed by folks essentially dismissing the vital importance and contribution of the blues? Sometimes it is covert, other times ignorantly overt, but it is there. Seems like guitar players can be the worst.

I fully realize it is not the end all of much of the music we treasure, but WHERE would that same music be without the blues as a major component? Would Led Zeppelin have been the Led Zepplin we know and love? This can be expanded to include everyone from the Beatles to Nirvana! Add to that where would Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, John Coltrane... have been without a grounding in the blues tradition? I could go on and on...

As a guitar player I realize and appreciate my grounding in the blues in all its forms....country,folk,rock,jazz.

I certainly don't want to get locked into I,IV,V chord patterns or blues scales, but I do acknowledge and appreciate that the blues are somewhere in everything we play!

OK, I am done ranting..............

Get off my lawn you damn kids!!! Back when I was a kid we had 3 chord progressions, 1 scale, and we liked it!!!

[chervokas]

Fair enough. If you're not comfortable playing the blues, you ain't gonna be any good playing American vernacular music of any sort--rock, jazz, country, gospel, soul, funk, etc.

I came up as a piano player and my clouds-parting-voice-of-god moment as a musician was hearing Otis Span on an old Vanguard blues anthology I borrowed from the local library when I was about 14 ..."Oh, that's why my mother has been busting my hump with piano lessons!..."

That said, the form has become a bit of a museum piece, and I for one don't love an entire night of playing the blues myself anymore. I still love listening to the greats--from Blind Lemon Jefferson to, say, Jimi Hendrix, who was the last great musician to advance the blues I think. And I'm glad I got to see so many fine blues musicians--John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, Bobby Bland, BB King, Little Brother Montgomery, Otis Rush, to name a couple. And I don't shirk for a moment from blues in my playing or a blues-based tune or three in a set. But much contemporary blues leaves me cold. A bit formal for my tastes.

[V-Type]

Blues bashing is for chumps imo.
Every guitarist uses a blues based pattern,chord,progression,etc...
from time too time in their music.
Blues is in everything from Thrash too Pop and on a daily basis.
Most folks(me included) gripe with the Blues as of late is that the top names are pretty happy where they are and the new biggies are just following the seniors steps.
There are exceptions though.

[CharAznable]

Blues is a double edged sword.

It can be an amazing vehicle for self expression. It can also be a convenient excuse for mediocrity.

It's up to each player to decide which side of the fence to be on.

[terrapin]

Fair enough. If you're not comfortable playing the blues, you ain't gonna be any good playing American vernacular music of any sort--rock, jazz, country, gospel, soul, funk, etc.

I came up as a piano player and my clouds-parting-voice-of-god moment as a musician was hearing Otis Span on an old Vanguard blues anthology I borrowed from the local library when I was about 14 ..."Oh, that's why my mother has been busting my hump with piano lessons!..."

That said, the form has become a bit of a museum piece, and I for one don't love an entire night of playing the blues myself anymore. I still love listening to the greats--from Blind Lemon Jefferson to, say, Jimi Hendrix, who was the last great musician to advance the blues I think. And I'm glad I got to see so many fine blues musicians--John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, Bobby Bland, BB King, Little Brother Montgomery, Otis Rush, to name a couple. And I don't shirk for a moment from blues in my playing or a blues-based tune or three in a set. But much contemporary blues leaves me cold. A bit formal for my tastes.


Yea, maybe it's the majority of the "contemporary blues" that has poisoned the water, but it IS the Rock-Solid foundation of MOST of the music we listen to and love.........Be it American, British, African, Middle Eastern...

Accept it, appreciate it and GROW from it!

[Mule]

I find that most guitarist (or any musicians) that truly dis the blues cant really play them worth a crap. I'll take a BB king 12 bar any day of the week!

[CharAznable]

I find that most guitarist (or any musicians) that truly dis the blues cant really play them worth a crap. I'll take a BB king 12 bar any day of the week!

I find that most guitarists that dis shred metal can't play it worth a crap.

I mean, really, why spend time mastering something you don't like?

[90wreck]

Key of E
get over it x 16
get over it x 16
get over it x 4
get over it x 4

I love me some blues every now and then.
However, I hate figured/traditional blues.

[terrapin]

I find that most guitarists that dis shred metal can't play it worth a crap.

I mean, really, why spend time mastering something you don't like?


DUDE, WAKE UP...............Your "shred metal" is peppered with the blues!!! And, Thank You, but I care NOT to play "shred metal", but you go for it............Just acknowledge the roots! I bet if I heard you play I could find more then a few blues-based licks hidden behind all that distortion.

[Gas-man]

People diss blooz because every 40 year beginner player seems to be a "Blues player".

[CharAznable]

I have an uneasy relationship with the blues.

I did not grow up with it and it's not part of my background. I didn't even have an idea of what it was until I started playing guitar.

Then I got derailed. Why should I work on learning theory and building technique when I can just play pentatonic licks?

It really set back my playing by about 10 years (not the blues but my attitude towards the blues).

So sometimes I question myself. Do I like the blues because I honestly feel a connection? Or do I like the blues because they look easy on guitar?

I suspect many people are on the same boat and don't realize it.

At a point, I started to move beyond the blues and really working on my playing and theory etc. I've grown tremendously as a player since then.

And the payoff is that now I feel that I can be more honest as a player when I play the blues. I've gained a deeper appreciation, and also the realization of how hard it actually is to play blues with originality and authority.

[CharAznable]

DUDE, WAKE UP...............Your "shred metal" is peppered with the blues!!! And, Thank You, but I care NOT to play "shred metal", but you go for it............Just acknowledge the roots! I bet if I heard you play I could find more then a few blues-based licks hidden behind all that distortion.

I'm not a shred metal player. I'm just pointing an inconsistency in thinking.

"Because it's the roots" is not a valid reason to spend your time doing something you don't like. The statement goes both ways.

[terrapin]

I'm not a shred metal player. I'm just pointing an inconsistency in thinking.

"Because it's the roots" is not a valid reason to spend your time doing something you don't like. The statement goes both ways.

Point well appreciated, BUT Shred Metal is IMO a foundation for nothing but guitar masturbation. The Blues (in its true form) is the foundation for most everything. Once again, it is no place to stop, but a DAMN good place to start.

AND, I would say that while you may not realize it, you DID grow up with it if you listened to rock, folk, country, jazz...

[chervokas]

Yea, maybe it's the majority of the "contemporary blues" that has poisoned the water, but it IS the Rock-Solid foundation of MOST of the music we listen to and love.........Be it American, British, African, Middle Eastern...

Accept it, appreciate it and GROW from it!

Well, I listen to an love a lot of kinds of music and you know a lot of it isn't built on the foundation of the blues (not too much blues in the Bach solo violin sonantas and partitas!). Furthermore, I dunno about all this world music being blues-derived. I mean, sure, at this point, in a global media world, the impact of the blues has seeped into popular music of many cultures. But in terms of the history and development of musical styles the blues is very specifically and peculiarly an African American style of music that grew in part out of a a collision of English folk music and deeply embedded West African music modes living side by side in early America and which emerged as a distinct form probably not before the late 19th century and perhaps not until around the turn of the century, making it's emergence--as least in the form we know it today--contemporaneous with the emergence of jazz and clearly an cross influence with a variety of other 20th century American vernacular styles (gospel and country most notably, bluegrass is another thing altogether, actually very closely related not to blues but to older minstrel show music of the mid 19th century).

To the extent that these American folkloric musics further mutated into other music--like soul and funk and rock and roll--and that these mutations went on to influence other world music, blues is a broad influence, sure. But I wouldn't say that the musical traditions of the British Isles or the African content or the Middle East are built on a foundation of the blues. That's just not accurate. If the music of those regions has blues influences today it's a spicy exotic import, kind of like the Beatles playing sitar.

But yeah, if you're dissing blues in a broad brush generic way, you're basically dissing a major cornerstone of the American vernacular tradition.

[CharAznable]

Point well appreciated, BUT Shred Metal is IMO a foundation for nothing but guitar masturbation. The Blues (in its true form) is the foundation for most everything. Once again, it is no place to stop, but a DAMN good place to start.

AND, I would say that while you may not realize it, you DID grow up with it if you listened to rock, folk, country, jazz...

Now you are getting into the world of opinions.

I could turn it around and say that the blues is a root for weekend bluzak and lazy guitar playing, and while rock is rooted in the blues, it outgrew it.

Just playing the devil's advocate, by the way.

Now, you have no idea how or where I was brought up!

[Buddy Boy]

Funny!!! Damn young'uns ain't got no respect. :band:mobGet off my lawn you damn kids!!! Back when I was a kid we had 3 chord progressions, 1 scale, and we liked it!!!

[SteveO]

I'm kicking back with a DVD of Steve Winwood and Eric Clapton right now-great stuff there. HOWEVER, if I never, ever, EVER hear another twelve-bar I-IV-V shuffle in my life I won't complain.

[CharAznable]

Playing the blues with originality and authority is my life quest.

I want to banish 12 bar shuffles, bowling shirts, bad SRV imitations, old tired licks.

I want to play blues because it speaks to me, not because it's easy on guitar.

I probably have a long way to go to achieve this.

[terrapin]

Well, I listen to an love a lot of kinds of music and you know a lot of it isn't built on the foundation of the blues (not too much blues in the Bach solo violin sonantas and partitas!). Furthermore, I dunno about all this world music being blues-derived. I mean, sure, at this point, in a global media world, the impact of the blues has seeped into popular music of many cultures. But in terms of the history and development of musical styles the blues is very specifically and peculiarly an African American style of music that grew in part out of a a collision of English folk music and deeply embedded West African music modes living side by side in early America and which emerged as a distinct form probably not before the late 19th century and perhaps not until around the turn of the century, making it's emergence--as least in the form we know it today--contemporaneous with the emergence of jazz and clearly an cross influence with a variety of other 20th century American vernacular styles (gospel and country most notably, bluegrass is another thing altogether, actually very closely related not to blues but to older minstrel show music of the mid 19th century).

To the extent that these American folkloric musics further mutated into other music--like soul and funk and rock and roll--and that these mutations went on to influence other world music, blues is a broad influence, sure. But I wouldn't say that the musical traditions of the British Isles or the African content or the Middle East are built on a foundation of the blues. That's just not accurate. If the music of those regions has blues influences today it's a spicy exotic import, kind of like the Beatles playing sitar.

But yeah, if you're dissing blues in a broad brush generic way, you're basically dissing a major cornerstone of the American vernacular tradition.

VERY well said......... I would recommend a GREAT book: "guitar-An American Life" by Tim Brookes. It has some great insights into this issue.

The point about Bach violin sonatas not being about the blues is certainly true, but perhaps Robert Johnson at some point heard some Bach and heard the Blues. Lord knows from his life Bach did experience the Blues.

[terrapin]

Playing the blues with originality and authority is my life quest.

Wanna get together and play???

[Buddy Boy]

Both you guys are welcome at my gigs...bring your guitars and sit in.I don't host open jams anymore...more by invitation only.:bandWanna get together and play???

[suckamc]

I'm a huge blues fan, but I get tired of blues guys dissing other stuff. No one objects, "why do you have to make it a competition?" when a blues nazi is doing it. Plus there are more than a couple revered blues guys who have virtually no command of touch and nuance... no phrasing. Tons of "shred" guys have far more command of those things (and every bit as much "soul") than their untouchable, un-critique-able blues counterparts. Blues nazis are the most closed-minded, weiner-measuring, critical-of-others group of musicians I've ever encountered in my life, and they sure as hell listen with their eyes and with their calculators in hand (ready to punish any mathematical offense).

And I LOVE the blues.

[bopplayer]

I'll put this up against any player of any genre:

4PGPhaWCgYY

[Kaji13]

I'm a huge blues fan, but I get tired of blues guys dissing other stuff. No one objects, "why do you have to make it a competition?" when a blues nazi is doing it. Plus there are more than a couple revered blues guys who have virtually no command of touch and nuance... no phrasing. Tons of "shred" guys have far more command of those things (and every bit as much "soul") than their untouchable, un-critique-able blues counterparts. Blues nazis are the most closed-minded, weiner-measuring, critical-of-others group of musicians I've ever encountered in my life, and they sure as hell listen with their eyes and with their calculators in hand (ready to punish any mathematical offense).

And I LOVE the blues.
Blues Nazis and real Nazis have one thing in common, stupidity.

[terrapin]

Obviously I chose to start and follow this thread tonite INSTEAD of playing...SHAME ON ME!!!

But, it has started a discussion just as I envisioned it. A healthy, constructive conversation. THAT is a Beautiful thing!

I bet the Moderators are following this one 'cause it has the potential of going NASTY, but it has not and THAT is way cool!!!

Some GREAT points made without anger or rejection.

I do apologize for possibly dissin' shred metal..........Not my cup of tea, but a valid music form.

Bottom line........If you're having fun and no one is getting hurt then GO FOR IT!!!

[musikluvr2]

Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi, etc, do not have their roots in da blllooozzzz. Many "shredders" are more influenced by classical than blues. I do like the blues, and for several years did the whole blues and jazz thing. I became so disgusted by the attitudes, boring cliches, and just tired of the same licks over and over. About 7 years ago started really getting into Metal again, and now I can hardly listen to blues anymore. 15 years ago I was where most of the nazis are today. Metal shows are actually fun, not a bunch of guys standing around with their arms crossed staring at said blues guy. Life is too short for boring. I did see Johnny Lang recently and had a great time. He and Bonamassa are about as far as I can go with it. Everything does not stem from the blues. Give me a break. Blues came from spirituals (Gospel). It is not a religion it a very limted form of music that has emotion attached to it. I am not some punk kid just learning guitar, I just moved on.

[Buddy Boy]

I just happened to read about Dr. Watts(on youtube) and it was stated that he wrote his unmetered hymns AFTER listening to the field hollers in the 17th century! Ritchie begat Yngvie, Yngvie begat shred. Deep Purple was a direct descendant of the blues.Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi, etc, do not have their roots in da blllooozzzz. Many "shredders" are more influenced by classical than blues. I do like the blues, and for several years did the whole blues and jazz thing. I became so disgusted by the attitudes, boring cliches, and just tired of the same licks over and over. About 7 years ago started really getting into Metal again, and now I can hardly listen to blues anymore. 15 years ago I was where most of the nazis are today. Metal shows are actually fun, not a bunch of guys standing around with their arms crossed staring at said blues guy. Life is too short for boring. I did see Johnny Lang recently and had a great time. He and Bonamassa are about as far as I can go with it. Everything does not stem from the blues. Give me a break. Blues came from spirituals (Gospel). It is not a religion it a very limted form of music that has emotion attached to it. I am not some punk kid just learning guitar, I just moved on.

[Kaji13]

I just happened to read about Dr. Watts(on youtube) and it was stated that he wrote his unmetered hymns AFTER listening to the field hollers in the 17th century! Ritchie begat Yngvie, Yngvie begat shred. Deep Purple was a direct descendant of the blues.
A stretch? I mean, I can trace everything back to cavemen banging on rocks with sticks...doesn't mean ANYONE has reverance for that.

[Buddy Boy]

Listen to the intro to "Lazy" live and tell me what you hear.A stretch? I mean, I can trace everything back to cavemen banging on rocks with sticks...doesn't mean ANYONE has reverance for that.

[airwarrior]

When people bash blues, they are more often than not simply expressing how absolutely tired of the cliche it has become. I love listening to Robert Johnson. I love listening to John Lee Hooker. I love listening to Muddy Waters.


I do not love listening to the average wanker who thinks he is the next Eric Clapton. I am simply tired of the blues wankery and tired feeling most contemporary "blues" just reeks of. It's just not enjoyable to listen to.

[Buddy Boy]

Have to agree, local jams are full of pseudo-blues rockers, don't usually go out if I'm not gigging. When people bash blues, they are more often than not simply expressing how absolutely tired of the cliche it has become. I love listening to Robert Johnson. I love listening to John Lee Hooker. I love listening to Muddy Waters.


I do not love listening to the average wanker who thinks he is the next Eric Clapton. I am simply tired of the blues wankery and tired feeling most contemporary "blues" just reeks of. It's just not enjoyable to listen to.

[musikluvr2]

I just happened to read about Dr. Watts(on youtube) and it was stated that he wrote his unmetered hymns AFTER listening to the field hollers in the 17th century! Ritchie begat Yngvie, Yngvie begat shred. Deep Purple was a direct descendant of the blues.

You sir, clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Oh yea it is YNGWIE. Your statement makes the least sense I have seen in quite sometime. European music, classical from ALL eras is not rooted in or has anything to do with any form of blues. That is from the 20th century. Yngwie did not start "shred". Paganini maybe? It is primarily an American form of music. Like religious people who bend certain things to their personal preference instead of doing just a tiny bit of research coupled with a small measure of common sense.

[musikluvr2]

Listen to the intro to "Lazy" live and tell me what you hear.

Again, makes no sense. Yes Blackmore plays bluesy licks, SO WHAT. You think he is shred? This may be worse than I thought.

[Buddy Boy]

Frankly SIR, I find your tone a bit brash and your manner insulting. Actually, I don't find much sense in this post! What's religion have to do with this subject. In fact, you're not supposed to talk about it. I'm just saying that Blackmore was playing fast(and improvising, not playing scales) in the '60's, was a big influence on YngWie and those who followed. Shredders of today have these pioneers of the ELECTRiC guitar to thank for their form of music as they know it. This illustrates what I posted earlier...no respect for what came before or the people who paved the way for them.You sir, clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Oh yea it is YNGWIE. Your statement makes the least sense I have seen in quite sometime. European music, classical from ALL eras is not rooted in or has anything to do with any form of blues. That is from the 20th century. Yngwie did not start "shred". Paganini maybe? It is primarily an American form of music. Like religious people who bend certain things to their personal preference instead of doing just a tiny bit of research coupled with a small measure of common sense.

[musikluvr2]

Frankly SIR, I find your tone a bit brash and your manner insulting. Actually, I don't find much sense in this post! What's religion have to do with this subject. In fact, you're not supposed to talk about it. I'm just saying that Blackmore was playing fast(and improvising, not playing scales) in the '60's, was a big influence on YngWie and those who followed. Shredders of today have these pioneers of the ELECTRiC guitar to thank for their form of music as they know it. This illustrates what I posted earlier...no respect for what came before or the people who paved the way for them.

Maybe your fishing expedition in this thread is the offensive one. Playing fast, and improvising has nothing to do with shred. Most "shred", is based around classical based music. Not playing scales? Really? Yngwie mostly plays Paganini. Just look up Yngwie trying to play the blues, not pretty. I guess just stick to the pseudo blues, and not comment on music you are not really familiar with.

[BigViolin]

Is it possible to "bold" a facepalm?

[Buddy Boy]

I thought I was agreeing with you in your first post about the kids on the lawn...maybe you're just one of the kids on the lawn. Your earlier comment about doing the blues for a while says a lot. Stick with the blues for 40+ years like I have and you will be able to play them. Frankly, I thought the '80's sucked...I just kept looking back to where I came from(with respect)! Now I'm 58 and am right at home still playing blues. Break out your spandex and look in the mirror! And,trust me, sweetheart, there's nothing "pseudo" about my blues. Maybe your fishing expedition in this thread is the offensive one. Playing fast, and improvising has nothing to do with shred. Most "shred", is based around classical based music. Not playing scales? Really? Yngwie mostly plays Paganini. Just look up Yngwie trying to play the blues, not pretty. I guess just stick to the pseudo blues, and not comment on music you are not really familiar with.

[musikluvr2]

I thought I was agreeing with you in your first post about the kids on the lawn...maybe you're just one of the kids on the lawn. Your earlier comment about doing the blues for a while says a lot. Stick with the blues for 40+ years like I have and you will be able to play them. Frankly, I thought the '80's sucked...I just kept looking back to where I came from(with respect)! Now I'm 58 and am right at home still playing blues. Break out your spandex and look in the mirror!

Spandex? I don't play 80's hair music, never have. You really seem to have an uninformed point of view on non-blues based music. Some people don't like technical guitar driven music, I get it. Some people like the blues, some people don't. I can still play the blues, just weary of it. Burn out happens when you play it everyday for years on end. Stormy Monday makes sick to my stomach now. No longer inspired me. Jazz, Gypsy Jazz, and Flamenco are what I enjoy, when not playing modern metal. Carry on with da bllluuuuuzaaakkkk fest.

[Buddy Boy]

Well, I based the spandex "crack" on your thread I found with a bunch of '80's stuff. Perhaps, if the insults are over, it would interest you to know that I like Benny Goodman w/Charley C., Henry Mancini, and Jim Webb, as well as my guitar heroes. :bandBIin4MnkVRcSpandex? I don't play 80's hair music, never have. You really seem to have an uninformed point of view on non-blues based music. Some people don't like technical guitar driven music, I get it. Some people like the blues, some people don't. I can still play the blues, just weary of it. Burn out happens when you play it everyday for years on end. Stormy Monday makes sick to my stomach now. No longer inspired me. Jazz, Gypsy Jazz, and Flamenco are what I enjoy, when not playing modern metal. Carry on with da bllluuuuuzaaakkkk fest.

[The Last Rebel]

Well, I based the spandex "crack" on your thread I found with a bunch of '80's stuff. Perhaps, if the insults are over, it would interest you to know that I like Benny Goodman w/Charley C., Henry Mancini, and Jim Webb, as well as my guitar heroes. :band
I'm going to jump in here really fast. That thread was about 80s thrash metal, AKA real metal. As in, not that shit made my guys who raided their moms make-up cabinet, wore spandex, and used an amount of Aquanet that could be considered a fire hazard.

[Scott Miller]

Plenty of really good jazz players can't play blues, and will freely state that themselves. Dizzy Gillespie was one of them.

I think that a more realistic view of music history suggests that blues, jazz, and various Caribbean music genres all share Africanisms, but most likely did not share a lineage. That is, jazz did not evolve out of blues, it simply had very similar musical influences.

[Texas Jeff]

http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af240/TexasJeff58/three_stooges_moe.jpg
Someone's dissin' the blues? Why I ought'a...

[musikluvr2]

I'm going to jump in here really fast. That thread was about 80s thrash metal, AKA real metal. As in, not that shit made my guys who raided their moms make-up cabinet, wore spandex, and used an amount of Aquanet that could be considered a fire hazard.

I started that thread.

[Buddy Boy]

That's where I got the spandex thing. I still would hold to my position that those band had their roots in the late '60's...Beck, Page, Hendrix and Ritchie. Personally I respect the musicianship of bands like Slayer and,later,Tool...can't stand the lyrics, i.e. "satan crap". I started that thread.

[StompBoxBlues]

I'm not thrilled by jamming to the same 12 bars for an hour and a half like some folks are, and sometimes I conclude that I just don't care for the blues. Then "She Caught the Katy" comes up on shuffle and I remember otherwise. I'm pretty sure that Taj can convert any non-believer. :phones

To me the trick with blues is to take it and make it shiny and new and interesting. Less is more, a good deal of the time (i.e. many overplay).

And because blues is "easy" to learn the very basics, MANY folk that can't really play a shuffle right even, think they can do "blues"...it's easy to play, but amazingly hard to master and do something "new" with.

Add to that, the original blues...definitely tons of musicianship BUT was more vocal centered...the guitar added spice, added dimension, complemented the vocals and also could go on a journey, but not ten minutes each song of pure guitar playing. At least not historically.

The blues was about making the show, about a performers charisma and storytelling, and presence. Guitar was always there in one style of it, and masters like BB King brought the guitar up equal to the vocals (as one example) but not OVER them...that is a recent thing.

There also isn't just one blues scale. There are at least two, for any key, and when you add in BENDS which put notes in there (when done right) that aren't true notes, you get even more possibilities. But it is the whole thing, the guitar, vocals, band, arranging.

But how many folks do we meet that play nothing but "The blues" yet do about 4 different styles when they play (shuffle, slow blues, fast blues, etc.) and every song in each is about the same?

On the other hand, IF you get a SOUND.... listen to the "Best of Elmore James" sometimes (any compliation) and you hear the "Dust my Broom" opening in about 8 of 10 songs, but it kills in each, but again his voice, his singing style, and guitar just sounded so GOOD...

But that wouldn't fly today. Someone just playing pretty much the same song over and over, with different lyrics and slightly diff melody.

And yeah...a guy like Taj Mahal, when he's cooking, makes it all shiny and new! There are a number of folks that do that, but Taj comes to mind to me in modern times first...he's not burning up the fretboard, but has this timing that is just knockout-killer.
And of course, he is the storyteller, great play with his voice, great arranging and the whole package.
I also love Allman Brothers, etc. but they do a different spin on blues, still they did a fresh thing with blues.

[circusinthesky]

Anyone else get a bit tired and perplexed by folks essentially dismissing the vital importance and contribution of the blues?

Oh, you mean the vital contribution of the blues back in the 30's, influencing white British and American rock musicians in the 60's? That was the high point. Beyond and after that, it has pretty much stagnated into a parody of itself. Sure. Pentatonic, blues scale, etc. Fine. Just, let's agree to use that in something besides white-guy-in-a-suit, bar-band atrocities, or Eric Clapton neutering Cream songs for middle aged guys at outdoor festivals.

Let's move on, or at least take it somewhere other than Gary (Still Got the Dulls) Moore carbon copies.

Too much?

[Buddy Boy]

Oh, you mean the vital contribution of the blues back in the 30's, influencing white British and American rock musicians in the 60's? That was the high point. Beyond and after that, it has pretty much stagnated into a parody of itself. Sure. Pentatonic, blues scale, etc. Fine. Just, let's agree to use that in something besides white-guy-in-a-suit, bar-band atrocities, or Eric Clapton neutering Cream songs for middle aged guys at outdoor festivals.

Let's move on, or at least take it somewhere other than Gary (Still Got the Dulls) Moore carbon copies.

Too much?:mob:horse:band

[musikluvr2]

That's where I got the spandex thing. I still would hold to my position that those band had their roots in the late '60's...Beck, Page, Hendrix and Ritchie. Personally I respect the musicianship of bands like Slayer and,later,Tool...can't stand the lyrics, i.e. "satan crap".

It is obvious your familiarity of the subject is minimal, so I understand. Thrash metal, extreme metal guys never dressed or participated in that style of music. Satan Crap? Page and Blackmore are both Crowleyites, and Luciferians. Page lived in Crowleys house for a period of time. Both are known occultists. Hendrix was into bizarre new age stuff, and was hardly a model citizen. The guys you named were rock players influenced by the blues, not blues players. I am about as burned out and sick of classic rock as I am the blues. I lived in Dallas all through my 20's and most of my 30's. Played with LOTS of blues, blues/rock bands. This thread is now about as boring. It's obvious you only see a small part of the whole picture, so I will leave it there. Good day.

[Buddy Boy]

Again w/the insults:nono.....at least the lyrics to Deep Purple songs were about cars about girls and stuff. Like you said,they were influenced by the blues and those that followed were influenced by them. The OP said he was tired of people dissin the blues and all you and your cohorts have done is continue to do so...I didn't jump into your metal thread and piss on it. Total lack of respect for your elders...you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.....Jesus, I sound like my Grandma... now I'm finally getting a laugh...even if it's at my own expense. :drool:band It is obvious your familiarity of the subject is minimal, so I understand. Thrash metal, extreme metal guys never dressed or participated in that style of music. Satan Crap? Page and Blackmore are both Crowleyites, and Luciferians. Page lived in Crowleys house for a period of time. Both are known occultists. Hendrix was into bizarre new age stuff, and was hardly a model citizen. The guys you named were rock players influenced by the blues, not blues players. I am about as burned out and sick of classic rock as I am the blues. I lived in Dallas all through my 20's and most of my 30's. Played with LOTS of blues, blues/rock bands. This thread is now about as boring. It's obvious you only see a small part of the whole picture, so I will leave it there. Good day.

[Brian D]

I'll put this up against any player of any genre:

4PGPhaWCgYYMan, that's some purdy playin' there.

[Buddy Boy]

No kiddin'! Think he listened to Albert King...just a little?Man, that's some purdy playin' there.

[bluffalo]

My take:

It's just plain boring. It's been done to death.

The whole attitude that older guitar players seem to think it's "essential" and it's the roots of blah blah blah. Have some imagination. Try something different.

Claims of "feel" and "soul" are just opinions. I hate the way blues players dismiss someones playing or songs because in their opinion it's lacking soul.... what a completely baseless comment. How do you define soul?


Oh and I hate rests in guitar solos too. Tied notes are interesting. Rests are boring, inevitably followed by a pentatonic run. boring. done before.


edit: and it's gotta be the snobbiest genre............................ (well maybe prog is pretty close)..

[Buddy Boy]

Why don't you guys just go start an "I hate the blues thread"? Add another to the list of disrespectful youngsters. My take:

It's just plain boring. It's been done to death.

The whole attitude that older guitar players seem to think it's "essential" and it's the roots of blah blah blah. Have some imagination. Try something different.

Claims of "feel" and "soul" are just opinions. I hate the way blues players dismiss someones playing or songs because in their opinion it's lacking soul.... what a completely baseless comment. How do you define soul?


Oh and I hate rests in guitar solos too. Tied notes are interesting. Rests are boring, inevitably followed by a pentatonic run. boring. done before.


edit: and it's gotta be the snobbiest genre............................ (well maybe prog is pretty close)..

[bluffalo]

Why don't you guys just go start an "I hate the blues thread"? Add another to the list of disrespectful youngsters.
How do you know if I'm a "youngster"?


but I do acknowledge and appreciate that the blues are somewhere in everything we play!

Simply.... No it's not.

[Buddy Boy]

"Shot in the dark'?How do you know if I'm a "youngster"?




Simply.... No it's not.

[jenkka]

My take:

It's just plain boring. It's been done to death.



I have to agree. And I love the bluuz.

[Buddy Boy]

I'd rather hear one note with great tone and inflection than anything else. Too many notes in a row and you're not "sayin" anything. The guitar is a very "vocal" form of self expression. Haven't you had occasions where someone wouldn't stop talking long enough for you to think about what they just said?

[musicofanatic5]

Well, I listen to an love a lot of kinds of music and you know a lot of it isn't built on the foundation of the blues (not too much blues in the Bach solo violin sonantas and partitas!). Furthermore, I dunno about all this world music being blues-derived. I mean, sure, at this point, in a global media world, the impact of the blues has seeped into popular music of many cultures. But in terms of the history and development of musical styles the blues is very specifically and peculiarly an African American style of music that grew in part out of a a collision of English folk music and deeply embedded West African music modes living side by side in early America and which emerged as a distinct form probably not before the late 19th century and perhaps not until around the turn of the century, making it's emergence--as least in the form we know it today--contemporaneous with the emergence of jazz and clearly an cross influence with a variety of other 20th century American vernacular styles (gospel and country most notably, bluegrass is another thing altogether, actually very closely related not to blues but to older minstrel show music of the mid 19th century).

To the extent that these American folkloric musics further mutated into other music--like soul and funk and rock and roll--and that these mutations went on to influence other world music, blues is a broad influence, sure. But I wouldn't say that the musical traditions of the British Isles or the African content or the Middle East are built on a foundation of the blues. That's just not accurate. If the music of those regions has blues influences today it's a spicy exotic import, kind of like the Beatles playing sitar.

But yeah, if you're dissing blues in a broad brush generic way, you're basically dissing a major cornerstone of the American vernacular tradition.

I hear dom7's and diminished in Bach! sounds like ther blues to me!

Sure way to attract "blues dissers": start a thread about "I'm tired of blues dissers"...

Gawd, I'm glad everyone doesn't play blues gtr!!

[stevieboy]

I heard papa tell mama, Let that boy boogie woogie.
It's in him, and it's got to come out.

(For all you mamas out there.:crazyguy)

[chervokas]

I just happened to read about Dr. Watts(on youtube) and it was stated that he wrote his unmetered hymns AFTER listening to the field hollers in the 17th century! Ritchie begat Yngvie, Yngvie begat shred. Deep Purple was a direct descendant of the blues.

Just an historical note, field hollers and other kinds of slave musical practices (corn husking songs, early African American religious music) are precursors to and influencers of the blues, and they share a lot of elements in common with the blues (bent 3rds and 7ths, certain kinds of melissmas, and antiphonal strucutre that probably influenced the repeated line lyrical structure of the blues etc), but they're not the blues per se as a form. For a pretty good survey of African American music practices in the colonial and early American era Dena Epstein's Sinful Tunes and Spirituals is just about the best book.

It should also be noted that even in the early colonial era slave musicians were often called upon to play for white dances and other ocassions so they became familiar with a lot of European styles. We often talk about how African American musica practices influences European American music, but the influence cut both ways from the very start.

[Funky54]

you just can't get or appreciate the Muscle car cause you don't like the Horse and Buggy." "You know, if it wasn’t for the horse and buggy there wouldn't be the muscle car"

I am vocals more than anything. I have been in many three pieces, and prefer to play with a lead player. If I do two maybe three nice leads in a set, I'm pretty happy. Try being a rhythm player and play the blues....ah...it’s the same three chords maybe four or five.. it doesn’t do anything. You play something like Cowboy Song or Walk Away Renee. There are worked out parts. Turn arounds, lots of changes. It’s interesting. There are stacked harmonies. More Than A Feeling..same thing. That aint blues.

It’s like go to a blues concert and all the music played is big band..You're like WHAT?? and everybody around saying "oh, this is the blues..don’t you get it? There wouldn't be blues if it wasn’t for this" You respond, but I wanted to hear blues.. They get mad and say "You won’t get the blues until you understand this"

People love to say well Page ...blah blah blah.. Like I said before, Page made it worth listening to. He took something and made it his own. It became SOMETHING ELSE. It became Rock. It became interesting to me.

I don't hate all blues. I hate the mind set of musicians who don't know songs anymore. I hate the mind set of one long song going on all night. I hate the lack of structured parts. I hate the imposition of everyone forcing it on me. I hate buying a ticket and want to hear Rock and having to leave cause its all Blues.

I'm angry right now, frustrated cause in the town I live, Its all blues or Death Metal. I want straight up Rock. All the musicians have sold out to give the retired masses what they want. Blues. But most of all I'm tired of every saying "there is no room for you. We want our three chord nonstop song that lasts for three four sets." We don't know that song....how about this version of Aint no Sunshine...it will be like what we played the first two sets only we change the tempo a 1/4 beat.

[chervokas]

Plenty of really good jazz players can't play blues, and will freely state that themselves. Dizzy Gillespie was one of them.

I think that a more realistic view of music history suggests that blues, jazz, and various Caribbean music genres all share Africanisms, but most likely did not share a lineage. That is, jazz did not evolve out of blues, it simply had very similar musical influences.

That's true and well put. James Brown also didn't like to sing blues and didn't do it particularly well.

As I posted earlier jazz and blues as we know it today appear to have emerged roughly contemporaneously around the turn of the 20th century. And while one didn't directly grow out of the other (if anything jazz grew out of St. Louis ragtime and New Orleans second line Afro-carribbean influences; blues out of field hollers, ring shouts and other more functional African American musics), they clearly cross influenced one another deeply from the very start.

That said, I think it remains true as a general rule (and of course general rules have exceptions), that to play American vernacular music well (jazz, country, rock and roll, gospel) one is best off with an understanding of and feel for the blues. Without that there's a big hole in your game right at the core. It's a little bit like being an auto mechanic and understanding everything about a car except the transmission.

I don't get the shredders vs. blues players wars that always break out on TGP. What kind of musician only plays or listens to a single narrow genre of music, or pits one style against the other? Show me a musician who only shreds and only listens to speed metal, or one who only plays the blues and only listens to blues and I'll show you a boring, limited, musician with an unimaginative mind.

[Funky54]

That's true and well put. James Brown also didn't like to sing blues and didn't do it particularly well.

As I posted earlier jazz and blues as we know it today appear to have emerged roughly contemporaneously around the turn of the 20th century. And while one didn't directly grow out of the other (if anything jazz grew out of St. Louis ragtime and New Orleans second line Afro-carribbean influences; blues out of field hollers, ring shouts and other more functional African American musics), they clearly cross influenced one another deeply from the very start.

That said, I think it remains true as a general rule (and of course general rules have exceptions), that to play American vernacular music well (jazz, country, rock and roll, gospel) one is best off with an understanding of and feel for the blues. Without that there's a big hole in your game right at the core. It's a little bit like being an auto mechanic and understanding everything about a car except the transmission.

I don't get the shredders vs. blues players wars that always break out on TGP. What kind of musician only plays or listens to a single narrow genre of music, or pits one style against the other? Show me a musician who only shreds and only listens to speed metal, or one who only plays the blues and only listens to blues and I'll show you a boring, limited, musician with an unimaginative mind.
Clipity clop, clipity clop, clipity clop....VROOM VROOM VROOM..I aint got time to slow down my muscle car to ride beside the horse and buggy. I get what you're saying. I appreciate what the early blues guys got going and developed. I get many rock legends listened to those early recordings and were inspired to use it. To switch it up, the way they wanted it to be. To what they heard in their head. They applied what they had learned into a new format...but thats just it. A NEW FORMAT. The bues guys have to get over it. Its something else now. Let me enjoy what it is now. Stop cramming the "ROOTS" down my throat. You keep the bowling shirts, songs about steam trains and raising corn. I just don't relate to it. I also want songs that put me in a good mood. I like to feel up. I want a party. Some great blues songs do that. But When you go out among your local musicians and say Blues..they start to play these sad overplayed songs that have nothing to do with life today. AND please, please play somthing with stacked harmonies and more than I IV V.

[germs]

i'm not ashamed to admit my style is very typical heavy rock/blues stuff, especially when it comes to solos. i'm trying to break out of that...

BUT what i really like to bash on are the guys out there impersonating other players. i mean, if you wanna play some covers - go ahead. but let's call a duck a duck and move on. don't stand there sweating with your hands outstretched after every song with a pained look on your face expecting critical acclaim from the audience...sheesh.

what ALSO gets me is when i go to look or listen to a local release and it's a covers album. okay...fine. then i get to listening, and it's recorded exactly the same way! there's no "fresh spin" or anything. it's just this guy singing and playing that guy.

but overall, i try to avoid the "Rolex Rider" "blooze lawyer" bashing mentality that's prevalent here. mainly because i have a funny feeling i'm gonna end up there one day.

[andybaylor]

I say, Hey, Hey, the Blues is alright!

[Rob Sharer]

Anyone else get a bit tired and perplexed by folks essentially dismissing the vital importance and contribution of the blues? Sometimes it is covert, other times ignorantly overt, but it is there. Seems like guitar players can be the worst.


In my opinion, dismissing blues is like dismissing water. It's just a fundamental part of what we are!

However.....


Devotees of "the blues" have a lot to answer for. Music is not automatically great just because it's pentatonic. There is plenty of (my opinion) repetitive, boring, uninspired stuff in the blues field that is just begging to be punctured by critics.

I reserve the right to love some of the blues, actively despise some of it, and ignore the rest.

Rob

[mannish]

I could careless if they diss the blues

[JohnnyGtar]

I love the blues. It's the blues police I can't stand.

[mannish]

I been accused of being a 'purist' more times than not but why I should I care if someone thinks I am a 'purist'. Why should you care if the blues police don't agree with you or your music. People need to be who they are and let others do the same.



I love the blues. It's the blues police I can't stand.

[andrekp]

I'd rather hear a beginning guitarist of ANY age, playing blues, than having them not play at all.

It's music, and it's as valid as any other type of music. Maybe it's in or out of fashion with one faction of players or another, but overall: Who cares? The fact that it inspires people to pick up the guitar and play - which is largely a personal experience anyway - should be all that matters to any of us as musicians.

[lhallam]

Just an historical note, field hollers and other kinds of slave musical practices (corn husking songs, early African American religious music) are precursors to and influencers of the blues, and they share a lot of elements in common with the blues (bent 3rds and 7ths, certain kinds of melissmas, and antiphonal strucutre that probably influenced the repeated line lyrical structure of the blues etc), but they're not the blues per se as a form. For a pretty good survey of African American music practices in the colonial and early American era Dena Epstein's Sinful Tunes and Spirituals is just about the best book.

It should also be noted that even in the early colonial era slave musicians were often called upon to play for white dances and other ocassions so they became familiar with a lot of European styles. We often talk about how African American musica practices influences European American music, but the influence cut both ways from the very start.

This is correct. We are a melting pot. Folk music has also been an influence. There are other factors as well, for example the gtr came from Spain not from Africa.

Jazz is a great example. Creoles were trained in European classical music, they melded in the blues, added syncopation and gave us jazz. (paraphrasing).

Some genres of music have transformed to the extent that it's as far away from the blues as the cavemen clacking rocks together. As mentioned earlier. Wheat beer and cake both have yeast and wheat but classing them together is a real stretch.

[hudpucker]

In my opinion, dismissing blues is like dismissing water. It's just a fundamental part of what we are!

However.....


Devotees of "the blues" have a lot to answer for. Music is not automatically great just because it's pentatonic. There is plenty of (my opinion) repetitive, boring, uninspired stuff in the blues field that is just begging to be punctured by critics.

I reserve the right to love some of the blues, actively despise some of it, and ignore the rest.

Rob


Good post.


Oh yeah.....blues nazis suck.

[bluesbreaker59]

I consider playing the blues to be a discipline. There are many different forms of "acceptable" blues playing to the blues nazi types too. For example: early Texas blues and also the Fabulous Thunderbirds, 50's and 60's Chicago blues, west coast jump blues, some New Orleans blues, Delta blues, electric Delta blues, Hill country blues, boogie, and early Memphis blues.

There IS a difference between how Muddy Waters songs go and how even his contemporaries like Howlin Wolf play. There is a HUGE difference between these two and how 2nd generation Chicago guys like Otis Rush, Magic Sam and Buddy Guy played. Then with a guy like Freddy King he brought in some country and surf influences to his blues instrumentals. Then check out some of the West Coast guys like Junior Watson, Charlie Baty, Hollywood Fats, etc; they were really doing something different while at the same time paying respect to guys like T-Bone, Gatemouth Brown, BB King, and Pee Wee Crayton.

I agree watching a bunch of tired, fat, white guys stand around and play 48 bar guitar solos all night to a I, IV, V gets really old. However a band that tries to lay down a really authentic groove and stay close to original arrangements and providing an authentic sound without resorting to instrumental wankery is great in my book.

[chervokas]

There are other factors as well, for example the gtr came from Spain not from Africa.

Yeah, well, the guitar really doesn't show up as a major component of American music until the early 20th century. Banjo, which is very conspicuously African derived, was a much more important instrument and even European instruments like mando and violin were more important in all these American vernacular styles than guitar until probably WWI. And, frankly, the Panama-Pacific Exposition of 1915, which introduced Hawaiian slack key playing to the mainland, probably had more to do with the introduction of slide guitar--and probably guitar in general--into the American vernacular than anything again until the arrival of The Beatles. It set off a guitar mania similar to the Beatles inspired guitar mania.

[Jay Mitchell]

I agree watching a bunch of tired, fat, white guys stand around and play 48 bar guitar solos all night to a I, IV, V gets really old.+1. And, on top of that they ain't playin' no blues. If you don't feel the blues, you cain' play the blues. IF you do feel the blues, everyone who hears you will know.

However a band that tries to lay down a really authentic grooveSo far, so good. Without the right groove, you're sunk.

and stay close to original arrangementsNot necessary at all. What's necessary is to have a feel for where those original guys were coming from - emotionally, as well as musically - and to learn to tell your personal story in that style. Once you can do that, you can make up your own arrangements, licks, etc., and they'll still be true to the form. Hell, you can write your own songs for that matter.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Meh.
For every good blues tune I've heard, there's fifty uninspiring ones at any given time. YMMV.

Ritchie Blackmore absolutely detested his original solo in "Lazy." On the 25th Anniversary release of Machine Head, he mentions he wanted to redo it, he hated it so much. That's still one of my favorite blues solos of all time. And he loves Trevor Rabin's playing on "Owner Of A Lonely Heart." That's one of my most detested solos of all time - it sounds like robotic skronk.

So do I like the guitarist, or do I like what his fingers played even more than their owner actually did?

Jimmy Page wrote the famous riff to "Whole Lotta Love" based on John Bonham's drum patterns. And I heard Jeff Beck playing Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" on the Live At Ronnie Scott's dvd (and Plant was conveniently in the audience) and was amazed how much I didn't really care for the original version. So in essence, Page took a song that was decades old and made it into something that literally changed the world -

- and all because of a drummer's skill.

Can drummers play the blues?

[mannish]

I think staying too close to the original arrangements is not always great, makes you a cover band. I believe in keeping the original intent of the tune intact but I am big on self expression so copying someone else's 'arrangement' can prohibit that self expression. In regards to instrumental wank-offs I have also heard VERY, VERY few players pro, amateur doesn't matter than can do extended solos without running out of something to say. However WE are musicians and unfortunately usually the average audience member loves those instrumental wank offs

IMHO if is YOUR groove then it is authentic, if you are coppin' Muddy's groove it's not authentic. My music is just as authentic as Muddy or Son House cause it is MINE and honest. I don't mean completely obliterating a tune but take The Stones Love in Vain or Stop Breaking Down for example they stayed true to themselves but kept the intent/meaning of the song.

Just MHO and nothing more

I love Hollywood Fats, Jr Watson, Charly Baty & those guys. I wish I have more Fats recordings.

However a band that tries to lay down a really authentic groove and stay close to original arrangements and providing an authentic sound without resorting to instrumental wankery is great in my book.

[jlott]

Nazi? Here we go again. Another I didn't follow the herd so I am a nazi, or hater or whatever other B.S. term. I think most blues I have heard is boring. Does that make it any less important to people who love it? I mean after all I am a nobody. Just because I do not like the exact same thing as some one else does not make me a nazi. It just means I personally do not like the blues. I never have. It is not for me. End of story. You should just like what you like and quit worrying why everyone is not into what you are!

[chervokas]

I agree watching a bunch of tired, fat, white guys stand around and play 48 bar guitar solos all night to a I, IV, V gets really old. However a band that tries to lay down a really authentic groove and stay close to original arrangements and providing an authentic sound without resorting to instrumental wankery is great in my book.

As I've said before, I love blues music and I got to see a lot of blues greats perform: BB King, Muddy Waters, Bobby Bland, John Lee Hooker, Otis Rush, etc....

To me watching either of these things--a group of guys (of any race) playing long solos over I-IV-V's (and btw, this includes Eric Clapton) or a bunch of guys doing a repertory show trying to sound "authentic" (whatever that means) and sticking close to original arrangements--sounds like a yawn to me.

I'm not really a White Stripes fan. But what they do with modern blues-derived rock, while not exactly fresh, holds my interest a little more than either of the aforementioned scenarios.

This is the biggest problem with blues in the contemporary context--in modern practice it's more of an historical style and formal exercise than a living art form. It's like baroque fuges. You can listen to a Bach fuge today and be moved by it. You can listen to Blind Lemon Jefferson and be moved by it. But write a baroque fuge today and you're knowingly writing in an archaic, highly structured form and that very fact will be a big component of your artistic statement. But of course you could take elements of a fuge and compose something more contemporary but which harkens back. Same thing with blues.

But one of the great things about living today is that we can listen to new music of any genre and we can listen to Son House recordings and enjoy all of it.

[Jay Mitchell]

One more thing: there's a huge difference between blues and lame-ass, incompetent minor pentatonic wankery that some guys try to pass off as "blues." Blues did not begin or end with minor pent lines. Listen to Robert Johnson. Listen to Bessie Smith. Listen to Muddy Waters. Listen to Gatemouth (who admittedly went well beyond blues). There's a huge portion of those repertoires you can't begin to cover if you limit yourself to minor pentatonic ideas.

A lot of folks who say they don't like blues are, in reality, expressing an adverse reaction to the incompetents who claim to play blues when they really don't (and can't). I'm not a blues "Nazi" - I love (and play) many styles, including blues - but I got to hear something real, regardless of the style.

[chervokas]

Jimmy Page wrote the famous riff to "Whole Lotta Love" based on John Bonham's drum patterns. And I heard Jeff Beck playing Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" on the Live At Ronnie Scott's dvd (and Plant was conveniently in the audience) and was amazed how much I didn't really care for the original version. So in essence, Page took a song that was decades old and made it into something that literally changed the world

Well, I dunno if he changed the world. But as a point of historical accuracy, "You Need Love" was only about 6 years old when Page knocked it off without giving Dixon credit. Great song, but pretty poor sportsmanship.

And while Muddy's original recording is built more on a "Baby Please Don't Go" kind of riff, the songs are way more similar than they are different

pM8_HuQ0b34

[Funky54]

+1. And, on top of that they ain't playin' no blues. If you don't feel the blues, you cain' play the blues. IF you do feel the blues, everyone who hears you will know.
What's necessary is to have a feel for where those original guys were coming from - emotionally, as well as musically .

Yo, Oprah, What? I hear this every day around the locals. "Feel" Dude come on. Yeah there is that spot, that you just know and it’s beautiful. It's a high you get when everybody gets what’s going on around you, and everybody plays their part. Its magic....ah it aint exclusive to the Blues.
It’s called timing and knowing the right dynamics in sound and what fits with a song. "everyone who hears you will know" ooooh mysterious....ah the "blues" guys around here just are limited to 12 bars, I-IV- V and play the same songs over and over cause they are too lazy to learn more sophisticated songs. Or maybe it’s just to structured for them..they just regurgitate the same lead pattern over and over and over and over and over and over and over...STOP..and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Oh and a couple more thousand “and over and overs”

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

This is the biggest problem with blues in the contemporary context--in modern practice it's more of an historical style and formal exercise than a living art form. It's like baroque fuges. You can listen to a Bach fuge today and be moved by it. You can listen to Blind Lemon Jefferson and be moved by it. But write a baroque fuge today and you're knowingly writing in an archaic, highly structured form and that very fact will be a big component of your artistic statement. But of course you could take elements of a fuge and compose something more contemporary but which harkens back. Same thing with blues.

The Fugees???

Just funnin' with ya, Man. It's fugue.

[chervokas]

The Fugees???

Just funnin' with ya, Man. It's fugue.

Yeah, well, spelling, typing, proofreading...never been what I'm known for...funny actually since I spent most of my career writing for a living...used to drive some of my editor's nuts...its and it's, I'll use any construction of that at any time....thank god for spell check in formal docs!

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Well, I dunno if he changed the world. But as a point of historical accuracy, "You Need Love" was only about 6 years old when Page knocked it off without giving Dixon credit. Great song, but pretty poor sportsmanship.

And while Muddy's original recording is built more on a "Baby Please Don't Go" kind of riff, the songs are way more similar than they are different.

Ooops. My bad. I guess I just figured it was decades old, like the poison in poor Robert Johnson's body! And Zeppelin was doing it again several albums later, to Memphis Minnie...

"The Hell with my lemons, Woman! Squeeze that poison outta me!"

[SHM]

It's a matter of personal taste. If you like shedding and don't like the Blues, fine. But don't knock any musical genre, please. There's enough anti friendly talk in the world today.

Music is music. Take what you like and move on.

[Polynitro]

it is what it is

[suckamc]

I'm a huge blues fan, but I get tired of blues guys dissing other stuff. No one objects, "why do you have to make it a competition?" when a blues nazi is doing it. Plus there are more than a couple revered blues guys who have virtually no command of touch and nuance... no phrasing. Tons of "shred" guys have far more command of those things (and every bit as much "soul") than their untouchable, un-critique-able blues counterparts. Blues nazis are the most closed-minded, weiner-measuring, critical-of-others group of musicians I've ever encountered in my life, and they sure as hell listen with their eyes and with their calculators in hand (ready to punish any mathematical offense).

And I LOVE the blues.

Without apology, quoting myself. Surely blues fans would be hypocritical to accuse me of redundancy.

[Jay Mitchell]

Yo, Oprah, What? I hear this every day around the locals. "Feel" Dude come on.If you don't feel the music - blues, funk, jazz, metal, whatever - that you're trying to play, you're not making music. It's that simple. If you don't get it, well, you don't get it.

ah the "blues" guys around here just are limited to 12 bars, I-IV- V and play the same songs over and overThey're not playing blues....

[suckamc]

:facepalm

[roknfnrol]

Louisville style:

pQvetLF2wDQ

[musikluvr2]

If you don't feel the music - blues, funk, jazz, metal, whatever - that you're trying to play, you're not making music. It's that simple. If you don't get it, well, you don't get it.

They're not playing blues....

This. There is crappy music in every genre. Play it, play it well.

[mad dog]

It's a matter of personal taste. If you like shedding and don't like the Blues, fine. But don't knock any musical genre, please. There's enough anti friendly talk in the world today.

Music is music. Take what you like and move on.

Ah yes. That's it right there.
MD

[Buddy Boy]

Yes,this is truth. :stirThis. There is crappy music in every genre. Play it, play it well.

[Funky54]

If you don't feel the music - blues, funk, jazz, metal, whatever - that you're trying to play, you're not making music. It's that simple. If you don't get it, well, you don't get it.

They're not playing blues....
We agree. That's the point I was making, It's in all music, not just the blues. That's why I described it as special. A lock with everyone around you. Dynamics, timing, everything hitting on all cylinders, an extra sense of knowing where everyone else is going with it. More importantly, it's not selfish. It's all the musicians playing their part harmonising with everyone else. It's not an exclusive thing.

You have to get tired of it being described as a "feeling" You have to get tired of someone trying to take the high ground and say "If you don't agree with me...Well you just don't get this mysterious feeling. This magic that I get. To bad you're not on my plane....." That's about when I tune out the Blah Blah blah...

I like a lot of different kinds of music. And I dislike very little music. I really dislike selfish ,center stage guys...To bad the vehicle of the Blues, is the transportation of this type around my neck of the woods. They want the mindless repetitive chord progression and lack luster vocals, to be background for their never ending lead pattern of boring dreer.

[Deacon]

Louis Armstrong said that there are only two kinds of music .... good music and bad music.

I've found both in every genre. Blues just happens to be one of the genres that speaks to me most powerfully.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Weird how you can just walk by a bar that is blasting out some tedious blues wank, and you know in those few seconds, that you're not going in.

[Funky54]

Problem is if you walk by the bowlling shirts playing SRV, or the College kid bands playing Son House...In my neck of the woods, you've walked by all the music there is. I wanna Rock! Everyone else is either trying to buy a bowling shirt or they are to busy calling everyone else a sell out and saying you can't appreciate music cause you don't play 4 setts of harp and slide.

At this point I think i would actually settle to hear Brown Eye'd Girl again. If only the FOO would return.

[Jay Mitchell]

You have to get tired of it being described as a "feeling"Music - indeed all art - is about expressing emotional, spiritual, and intellectual verities that can't effectively be verbalized. As inadequate as a word like "feeling" is to express the concept, words are all that are available in an online forum.

You have to get tired of someone trying to take the high ground and say "If you don't agree with me...Well you just don't get this mysterious feeling.Again, in the absence of the types of content denoted by the word "feeling," there simply is no music. There's no way to put it other than you either get it or you don't.

I like a lot of different kinds of music. And I dislike very little music. I really dislike selfish ,center stage guys...Can't stand those types myself either.

To bad the vehicle of the Blues, is the transportation of this type around my neck of the woods.I won't listen to the guys who do that crap, regardless of the type of music they claim to be playing.

They want the mindless repetitive chord progression"Repetition" does not equal "mindless." All forms of popular music involve repetitive harmony. Any cyclical progression - not just a 12-bar blues - can be played in a "mindless" fashion, as well as in a musical, interesting fashion.

As a musical form, blues is simple. The mistake the wankers make is equating "simple" with "easy."

[terrapin]

WOW!!!!!!!! As the OP of this thread I remarked last night before I checked out that it was WAY COOL that we were having a good discussion and no one was getting upset or being rude!!! My how things have changed.

I would only remark that dissin' each other over our differing opinions is WAY more offensive then dissin' the blues!!!

As Thumper said so well in Bambi, "If you can't say something nice the don't say nothin' at all!!!"

It's ALL GOOD guys.................................

[Buddy Boy]

I "got into it" a little bit last night with MusikLvr2(no real offense intended/taken) and, after thinking about it, plan to get with a Shredder friend of mine to explore the history of shred. I'm not a know-it-all and am going to "make some lemonade" from last nights lemons. WOW!!!!!!!! As the OP of this thread I remarked last night before I checked out that it was WAY COOL that we were having a good discussion and no one was getting upset or being rude!!! My how things have changed.

I would only remark that dissin' each other over our differing opinions is WAY more offensive then dissin' the blues!!!

As Thumper said so well in Bambi, "If you can't say something nice the don't say nothin' at all!!!"

It's ALL GOOD guys.................................

[jlott]

Weird how you can just walk by a bar that is blasting out some tedious blues wank, and you know in those few seconds, that you're not going in.Nazi! Just kidding. That is funny and very true. Maybe I am unaware of the "great blues" or the "super creative blues", but to my ears it sounds like the same old thing over and over and over and... You get the picture.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Nazi! Just kidding. That is funny and very true. Maybe I am unaware of the "great blues" or the "super creative blues", but to my ears it sounds like the same old thing over and over and over and... You get the picture.

I guess that's why I avoid those places like the plague. But like any guitar style that isn't really your favorite - you can only take so much. Maybe someone should start a club that has blues and shred SIMULTANEOUSLY playing on one stage? :D

If more blues had the ungodly emotion that Jeff Beck poured into "Cause We've Ended As Lovers" from Blow By Blow, then I would listen to a LOT more blues. Perhaps I haven't found it, yet.

Your suggestions?

[zombywoof]

What most folks are "dissin'" is not the blues but the blues we have made in our own image - infusing it with what it takes to meet our born of rock and roll tastes.

[musikluvr2]

I "got into it" a little bit last night with MusikLvr2(no real offense intended/taken) and, after thinking about it, plan to get with a Shredder friend of mine to explore the history of shred. I'm not a know-it-all and am going to "make some lemonade" from last nights lemons.

:)....It's all good.

[Derek Q]

I'm pretty sure that Taj can convert any non-believer. :phones

I'm with you there. I've said it before: I'm far more excited when a new Taj release comes out than the now-standard "blues" fare. YMMV.

A lot of folks who say they don't like blues are, in reality, expressing an adverse reaction to the incompetents who claim to play blues when they really don't (and can't). I'm not a blues "Nazi" - I love (and play) many styles, including blues - but I got to hear something real, regardless of the style.
:agree

I've been accused of being a shredder because I've cut-up on people who philosophise that "5 notes are more inherently soulful than 12", or that "slow is more soulful than fast." Most mammals defecate fairly slowly, but it's still a turd. If by "soulful" one means some vague, allegorical allusion to African-American culture and colloquialisms, then maybe a Paganini-inspired run isn't very "soulful." If by "soulful" one means a heartfelt expression of oneself, then I don't think that can be qualified by B.P.M. or note quantity. Nazis be damned.

Weird how you can just walk by a bar that is blasting out some tedious blues wank, and you know in those few seconds, that you're not going in.

I LOVE blues, but this made me :rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao

[Scott Miller]

I would be curious to hear some case histories of when the blues police have actually engaged in your life. For example, did they leap on stage and unplug your amplifier? Or was it something more subtle, a sneer as you ended your solo? Or have your encounters been solely on the Internet, for example, someone told you that, despite your protestations, Captain and Tennille do not play blues?

[sanhozay]

I'd be delighted to just play blues...all night & every night. But I have a far reaching definition of the genre.

[Derek Q]

Playing the blues with originality and authority is my life quest.

I want to banish 12 bar shuffles, bowling shirts, bad SRV imitations, old tired licks.

I want to play blues because it speaks to me, not because it's easy on guitar.

I probably have a long way to go to achieve this.

I'd be delighted to just play blues...all night & every night. But I have a far reaching definition of the genre.

You guys wanna start a band? :rockin:rockin:rockin:band

[Probos]

If someone wants to diss the blues or any other kind of music,....that's their prerogative. Doesn't bother me,....and I take no offense.

I like what I like and don't give a **** what anyone else thinks.

[sanhozay]

You guys wanna start a band? :rockin:rockin:rockin:band

Sure! But I like 12 bars and {most} bowling shirts. And when I don't have any thing to play that makes sense I use that old tired lick to make me feel good. :)

My feeling for the blues is the less I sound like somebody else the more I realize I hate the sound of my own voice. I just want to be a blues vessel :)

[Jay Mitchell]

I'd be delighted to just play blues...all night & every night. But I have a far reaching definition of the genre.Ditto. Mose Allison, Billie Holiday, Ray Charles, Kenny Burrell, Muddy Waters, Big Joe Turner, Howlin' Wolf, Wes Montgomery, Duke Ellington, George and Ira Gershwin, Dr. John, etc., etc., all wrote and played blues. After 40+ years playing guitar, I still work every day at doing justice to all that. I hope to be able to do so before I die....

[sanhozay]

Ditto. Mose Allison, Billie Holiday, Ray Charles, Kenny Burrell, Muddy Waters, Big Joe Turner, Howlin' Wolf, Wes Montgomery, Duke Ellington, George and Ira Gershwin, Dr. John, etc., etc., all wrote and played blues. After 40+ years playing guitar, I still work every day at doing justice to all that. I hope to be able to do so before I die....

Good posting! Quoted so I could read it two times in a row.

[Derek Q]

Sure! But I like 12 bars and {most} bowling shirts. And when I don't have any thing to play that makes sense I use that old tired lick to make me feel good. :)

My feeling for the blues is the less I sound like somebody else the more I realize I hate the sound of my own voice. I just want to be a blues vessel :)

Cool, man. You wear a bowling shirt, I'll wear a dashiki, and CharAznable can put on a polo shirt. We'll call the band The Blues Vessels. I was thinking of Blues Hammer, but the name was already taken.:D

[musicofanatic5]

What is this, an IQ test?

[musicofanatic5]

"College kid bands playing Son House..."

Where does this occur? On this planet?

[soapbladder]

but overall, i try to avoid the "Rolex Rider" "blooze lawyer" bashing mentality that's prevalent here. mainly because i have a funny feeling i'm gonna end up there one day.

Sad truth. :BluesBros

Before I was a lawyer, I didn't play the blooz. I played Dead Milkmen, japanese punk, and slayer.

But when I got my juris doctor certificate they also handed me a strat set to neck position.

Now I got the infinite debt and numbing litigation blooze.

As the days go by.....

SB

[S.W.Erdnase]

How can people characterize blues players as Nazis and limited in their tastes when so many in this forum (and in this thread) hold up guys like Page as the pinnacle of their musical tastes? Talk about limited. Some guy here stated that Page extended music and created rock. What a joke. By all means, criticize the blues, but try and get a grasp of reality - and the actual historical significance of your personal poster boy - before you have the balls to take a dump on the people who made your musical genre a reality.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

:facepalm

[notnac]

Why don't you write a song-

I've got the I'm tired of people dissin' the blues blues.

[bluffalo]

Why don't you write a song-

I've got the I'm tired of people dissin' the blues blues.

I wonder what it would possibly sound like...

[hudpucker]

How can people characterize blues players as Nazis and limited in their tastes when so many in this forum (and in this thread) hold up guys like Page as the pinnacle of their musical tastes? Talk about limited. Some guy here stated that Page extended music and created rock. What a joke. By all means, criticize the blues, but try and get a grasp of reality - and the actual historical significance of your personal poster boy - before you have the balls to take a dump on the people who made your musical genre a reality.


Taking a 'dump' on the progenitors is far, far different than calling out a self-anointed, and intolerant blues nazi. Blooze nazis feel somehow gallingly empowered to specify what "is' and what ain't blues, frequently using their own bullshit criteria as 'proof.'

Which, of course, is the root of the problem. Most of 'em are uninterested in a dialogue---only their own monologue.

[CharAznable]

It's the blues nazis who are killing the blues, not the rockers or the shredders.

[zztomato]

As to why people dis the blues;

it's boring
it has gone nowhere new in the last three decades
it is laden with tired riffs and cliché
the artists who are the purveyors of the blues today are mostly posers

People are tired of the blues!!!!! get over it.

[zombywoof]

Ahhh, just give 'em a good dose of Bukka White and have them call you in the morning.

[greggorypeccary]

As to why people dis the blues;

it's boring
it has gone nowhere new in the last three decades
it is laden with tired riffs and cliché
the artists who are the purveyors of the blues today are mostly posers

People are tired of the blues!!!!! get over it.

None of that is a problem with the genre itself. :wave

[zztomato]

None of that is a problem with the genre itself. :wave

No, that's true. I have no problem with blues as a genre. It has had it's time and has a well deserved place in history. It's influence will be felt for years to come.

I'm just saying that people dis it because..... read my post agin. All valid points.

[Nielsnielsniels]

This thread reminds me of ...
-ZVIEaKV4cI

[S.W.Erdnase]

But who the hell are these blues Nazis? Or as Scott said:

I would be curious to hear some case histories of when the blues police have actually engaged in your life. For example, did they leap on stage and unplug your amplifier? Or was it something more subtle, a sneer as you ended your solo? Or have your encounters been solely on the Internet, for example, someone told you that, despite your protestations, Captain and Tennille do not play blues?

I think the whole blues Nazi thing is a straw man. But I just don't know what it is that driving people who don't dig the blues to invent this notion that there are a group of people out there trying to stop them playing their music.

[greggorypeccary]

No, that's true. I have no problem with blues as a genre. It has had it's time and has a well deserved place in history. It's influence will be felt for years to come.

I'm just saying that people dis it because..... read my post agin. All valid points.

I got your points the first time I read them and they are valid with respect to the typical local blues jams/bar bands. Doesn't mean that the whole genre is dead - there are folks out there playing it well (and I don't mean the typical TGP-approved blues-rockers).

[S.W.Erdnase]

As to why people dis the blues;

it's boring
it has gone nowhere new in the last three decades
it is laden with tired riffs and cliché
the artists who are the purveyors of the blues today are mostly posers

People are tired of the blues!!!!! get over it.

Your post is a just a great big pink neon sign with an arrow pointed at your noggin' that reads, "Doesn't know jack about the blues genre of the past three decades".

Or "Has issues: file under blues".

[zztomato]

Another point. I feel that blues has had too much influence on music today. I can't quite remember the quote but Miles Davis said after 'Kind of Blue' was finished but it was something like he was going to 'leave blues to the white folks now'- or words to that effect. The influence that blues has had on rock music is more than ample IMO. As a guitarist, I've spent a lot of time just trying to get blues OUT of my playing.
Blues these days is largely a guitarists music. Therein lies the problem. Guitars are popular instruments. Blues is an easy thing to learn on guitar and is usually one of the first things taught. So people learn it, have fun playing it and sometimes never learn anything else. It also seems to be some kind of unspoken litmus test for your prowess as a guitar player.
Blues is over-emphasized, over-stated, over-played and I wish at this point in time, it would be overlooked. Not overlooked in its historical significance of course.

[zztomato]

Your post is a just a great big pink neon sign with an arrow pointed at your noggin' that reads, "Doesn't know jack about the blues genre of the past three decades".

Or "Has issues: file under blues".

Give me a break. You don't know jack about me.
Honestly, point to something over the last three decades that has been a major leap forward wrt the genre? BTW it better be over and above what Hendrix, Clapton, Page and Beck did with it.

[hudpucker]

But who the hell are these blues Nazis? Or as Scott said:



I think the whole blues Nazi thing is a straw man. But I just don't know what it is that driving people who don't dig the blues to invent this notion that there are a group of people out there trying to stop them playing their music.


The point is that blues nazis will diss any blues music or perveyors that they feel isn't 'authentic.' To someone playing 'inauthentic' blues, this is both insulting and ridiculous.

Just another lame-ass variant of "I'm holier than thou." IMO.




I don't know that I personally can agree that these tools have any influence on the choice of material for others though.

[RedTiger]

Dissing the blues? Here?

lol wut

No, I'm pretty sure blues is perfectly safe on this forum.

[S.W.Erdnase]

Give me a break. You don't know jack about me.
Honestly, point to something over the last three decades that has been a major leap forward wrt the genre? BTW it better be over and above what Hendrix, Clapton, Page and Beck did with it.

See your problem, right there? You included Page with Hendrix. Now Hendrix did stuff with the genre. Page didn't. Page just ripped off other folks tunes and played 'em rock style. Where's the major leap? And Cream were doing power rock stuff before Zep hit their stride, so again, FTW?

As for people who have been taking the blues genre forward: Paul de Lay, Robert Cray and Kim Wilson. The latter suggestion may be technically too obscure for you, but you'll have to take my word for it as someone who is seriously in to the blues that his 3rd position harp playing is a leap ahead.

But let's step back a bit. What is your criteria for listening to music? That it constantly evolves? Well, Led Zeppelin didn't and I bet you're still listening to them and all their derivatives year in and year out. And I don't have a problem with that at all.

So, who are these blues Nazi shadows you're jumping at again?

[S.W.Erdnase]

The point is that blues nazis will diss any blues music or perveyors that they feel isn't 'authentic.' To someone playing 'inauthentic' blues, this is both insulting and ridiculous.

Just another lame-ass variant of "I'm holier than thou." IMO.




I don't know that I personally can agree that these tools have any influence on the choice of material for others though.

So your whole moan is about some guy who says, "I don't dig SRV because he's too rocky?" Or "Page isn't a blues guitarist because, uh... he isn't".

Man, this is a guitar forum. Harden up. If they banned comments like that then they'd have to ban all the comments about Van Halen being washed up, John Mayer being too pop and not devastating enough, Robben Ford sounding like elevator music for John Scofield fans, Dumble amps sounding like "the cutting edge in tube-driven solid state emulation", and the only thing truly magnificent about Yngwie being his Lion King hair extensions.

Akuna matada, dude.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

:facepalm

[RedTiger]

By the way...how many pages did it take until someone proved Godwin's Law?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[hudpucker]

So your whole moan is about some guy who says, "I don't dig SRV because he's too rocky?" Or "Page isn't a blues guitarist because, uh... he isn't".

Man, this is a guitar forum. Harden up. If they banned comments like that then they'd have to ban all the comments about Van Halen being washed up, John Mayer being too pop and not devastating enough, Robben Ford sounding like elevator music for John Scofield fans, Dumble amps sounding like "the cutting edge in tube-driven solid state emulation", and the only thing truly magnificent about Yngwie being his Lion King hair extensions.

Akuna matada, dude.


Harden up?

Please. YOU are the one begging for people to come forth with their stories of blues nazis (since you seem to be dubious about their very existence). They exist in large numbers here, just like the shredders, anti-shredders, blues musos and anti-blooze types.


Didn't like the answer?

Don't ask the question.

Just wait 'til I tell Kim's best friend you were talking about him! (I'm not kidding either).

[S.W.Erdnase]

:facepalm

I think I managed to tick all the boxes, Bill. If there's anyone whose chain I forgot to yank, let me know.

As for Godwin's law, I think people started mentioning "blues Nazis" many pages ago.

[S.W.Erdnase]

Harden up?

Please. YOU are the one begging for people to come forth with their stories of blues nazis (since you seem to be dubious about their very existence). They exist in large numbers here, just like the shredders, anti-shredders, blues musos and anti-blooze types.


Didn't like the answer?

Don't ask the question..

What answer?

Just wait 'til I tell Kim's best friend you were talking about him! (I'm not kidding either).

Wait. You're threatening to tell Kim Wilson I said his 3rd position playing is an advance? No, please, don't do it. He'll be furious.

[hudpucker]

BTW, the Kim Wilson remark was a tacit 'see, we have something in common musically after all' comment (and I do know his best pal, too).

[S.W.Erdnase]

Well, I misread that. Apologies - but the internet is an imperfect mode of communication.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

:facepalm

[hudpucker]

Well, I misread that. Apologies - but the internet is an imperfect mode of communication.



So true---no worries.

The irony of it all is that if we were all at a jam....we'd likely wind up playing blues at some point.


Yes, I know....there are some incontestible reasons for that. :D

[S.W.Erdnase]

The irony of it all is that if we were all at a jam....we'd likely wind up playing blues at some point.

Okay, but it's got to be a 24 bar with a slow change in the style of Yngwie's delta period [from his CD "I am zee blooz"], or we'll all be frauds and I'll have to sit it out in a huff.

[hudpucker]

"Yngwie's delta period"


:roll


:aok

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

So true---no worries.

The irony of it all is that if we were all at a jam....we'd likely wind up playing blues at some point.

Nah - Progressive! :wave

[Jay Mitchell]

Blues these days is largely a guitarists music.No. The fact that there are a lot of incompetent guitarists trying to play blues does not make blues "guitaristic." Blues can be and is played on a huge variety of instruments.

Guitars are popular instruments.Agreed.

Blues is an easy thing to learn on guitarNo. Blues is simple relative to some other forms of music. "Simple" /= "easy." That's a huge, albeit, very common, mistake.

It also seems to be some kind of unspoken litmus test for your prowess as a guitar player.I'd say that a guitar player who can't play blues is going to be very limited in his(her) ability to play rock 'n' roll, funk, R&B, C&W, and jazz. Given that those genres cover most of what interests me as a guitar player (I love classical music, but I have no aspirations to perform it on guitar), I'd say that the ability to play blues is an excellent litmus test. It's not sufficient, but it is damn sure necessary.

Blues is over-emphasized, over-stated, over-playedIn Your Opinion. In MY Opinion, too many players think they know how to play blues but don't, leading to a lot of really lame attempts to perform blues. IOW, blues isn't "over-played," it's "over-attempted." I'd love to hear an overall higher level of competence (and a lower level of volume), along with a better grasp of the width and breadth of the form. However, that would take years of serious shedding on the part of a lot of players who are presently fooling themselves, and i don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Were it to occur, I don't believe blues could possibly be "overplayed."

[zztomato]

See your problem, right there? You included Page with Hendrix. Now Hendrix did stuff with the genre. Page didn't. Page just ripped off other folks tunes and played 'em rock style. Where's the major leap? And Cream were doing power rock stuff before Zep hit their stride, so again, FTW?

As for people who have been taking the blues genre forward: Paul de Lay, Robert Cray and Kim Wilson. The latter suggestion may be technically too obscure for you, but you'll have to take my word for it as someone who is seriously in to the blues that his 3rd position harp playing is a leap ahead.

But let's step back a bit. What is your criteria for listening to music? That it constantly evolves? Well, Led Zeppelin didn't and I bet you're still listening to them and all their derivatives year in and year out. And I don't have a problem with that at all.

So, who are these blues Nazi shadows you're jumping at again?

Jesus man, you are taking this far too personally. All I did was answer the post.
You ask what I listen to? The list would be pretty long and it includes many different genres from all over the world. I haven't listened to Zepplin and the like for a long time because, yes, I find it boring. The closest thing to a blues vibe that I might listen to these days would be from Mali.
And yes, one of my criteria for music, and art in general, is that it evolves.

[StompBoxBlues]

In Your Opinion. In MY Opinion, too many players think they know how to play blues but don't, leading to a lot of really lame attempts to perform blues. IOW, blues isn't "over-played," it's "over-attempted." I'd love to hear an overall higher level of competence (and a lower level of volume), along with a better grasp of the width and breadth of the form. However, that would take years of serious shedding on the part of a lot of players who are presently fooling themselves, and i don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Were it to occur, I don't believe blues could possibly be "overplayed."

I didn't catch the whole context of the person you were answering, but as I agree with all you wrote there (and have said much similar also) it seems like you guys aren't really in disagreement at least on that last point.

The difference is, the person you are answering seems to be blaming "the blues" for it, while we know it is too many mediocre folk (and maybe more importantly, people that seem to not have any real love or respect for the blues as it has been played/performed) thinking they can play blues, "blues is easy" and the lack of true blues that gets presented as "blues" nowdays.

It also cuts the other way. In the past, good blues guitarists also were very often good at other more mainstream music. Our myths about the roots of blues are, I think, very distorted by what people WANT it to be, and what we chose to hear of the past.

[zztomato]

No. The fact that there are a lot of incompetent guitarists trying to play blues does not make blues "guitaristic." Blues can be and is played on a huge variety of instruments.

Agreed.

No. Blues is simple relative to some other forms of music. "Simple" /= "easy." That's a huge, albeit, very common, mistake.

I'd say that a guitar player who can't play blues is going to be very limited in his(her) ability to play rock 'n' roll, funk, R&B, C&W, and jazz. Given that those genres cover most of what interests me as a guitar player (I love classical music, but I have no aspirations to perform it on guitar), I'd say that the ability to play blues is an excellent litmus test. It's not sufficient, but it is damn sure necessary.

In Your Opinion. In MY Opinion, too many players think they know how to play blues but don't, leading to a lot of really lame attempts to perform blues. IOW, blues isn't "over-played," it's "over-attempted." I'd love to hear an overall higher level of competence (and a lower level of volume), along with a better grasp of the width and breadth of the form. However, that would take years of serious shedding on the part of a lot of players who are presently fooling themselves, and i don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Were it to occur, I don't believe blues could possibly be "overplayed."

Blues, as a popular music today, owes most of its success to the guitar slingers who have played it. Obviously it can be played on other instruments.
Blues IS an easy thing to learn in it's simple 12 bar form. Like anything, mastery takes years. My point there is that, because it is one of the first things people learn, many just stay with it to the detriment of the benefit of letting other music influence them.
I'd say that someone who can't play blues but who is an accomplished player none the less would be someone I'd like to listen to. To me, it's strange how much importance we place on the blues.
I agree largely with your last comment but stick to my assertion that it is over-emphasized.

[sanhozay]

Cool, man. You wear a bowling shirt, I'll wear a dashiki, and CharAznable can put on a polo shirt. We'll call the band The Blues Vessels. I was thinking of Blues Hammer, but the name was already taken.:D

I'm in! How about My Feeling For The Blues Hammer? Or maybe Dust My Blues Hammer? Nah, you're right - just Blues Hammer. :drink

Can I use boss pedals?

[sanhozay]

Blues is over-emphasized, over-stated, over-played and I wish at this point in time, it would be overlooked.


Please, stop hating on the blues and find a little love in your heart that extends beyond the end of your pedal board.
:aok

[zztomato]

I didn't catch the whole context of the person you were answering, but as I agree with all you wrote there (and have said much similar also) it seems like you guys aren't really in disagreement at least on that last point.

The difference is, the person you are answering seems to be blaming "the blues" for it, while we know it is too many mediocre folk (and maybe more importantly, people that seem to not have any real love or respect for the blues as it has been played/performed) thinking they can play blues, "blues is easy" and the lack of true blues that gets presented as "blues" nowdays.

It also cuts the other way. In the past, good blues guitarists also were very often good at other more mainstream music. Our myths about the roots of blues are, I think, very distorted by what people WANT it to be, and what we chose to hear of the past.

Just to be clear. I do not "blame the blues". I just find that it has been over-emphasized and dumbed down mostly by guitar players. The genre itself I believe has suffered because of this.

[sanhozay]

Make my dumbness a double:

http://www.kgnu.org/africanroots/afpics/ali_bonnie.jpg

[sanhozay]

God Bless the simple minds:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/talkovich/_DSC0026_1.jpg

[zztomato]

Please, stop hating on the blues and find a little love in your heart that extends beyond the end of your pedal board.
:aok
Ok, what's with the personal attack? I've never in any of my posts said that I hate the blues- in my first I state that I love playing it. I'm just not the kind of guy that blindly accepts what our culture offers up as art. I look at the current state of blues in music and my conclusion is that maybe less of it would be beneficial. I posted my reasons for this conclusion. If you don't agree that's fine but I see no need to be rude and insulting in your disagreement.

[Derek Q]

I'm in! How about My Feeling For The Blues Hammer? Or maybe Dust My Blues Hammer? Nah, you're right - just Blues Hammer. :drink

Can I use boss pedals?

:)

Absolutely. Heck, bring a looper too! If you bring a tube screamer, we may have to call a band meeting though! :p

Originally Posted by Jay Mitchell http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=8483037#post8483037)
In MY Opinion, too many players think they know how to play blues but don't, leading to a lot of really lame attempts to perform blues. IOW, blues isn't "over-played," it's "over-attempted." I'd love to hear an overall higher level of competence (and a lower level of volume), along with a better grasp of the width and breadth of the form. However, that would take years of serious shedding on the part of a lot of players who are presently fooling themselves, and i don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Were it to occur, I don't believe blues could possibly be "overplayed."



:agree (again)

Man, if you cats were to come out to the jams en masse, I might start going again.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

The idea that someone has to be able to play the blues to be a good guitarist in other styles, is ridiculous. One thing you DO need to have is a life full of different experiences - from which to draw from, and play about.

That's what makes young blues guitarists that much more incredible - that they have that ability to tap into and play an "adult" musical form when they are mere younguns...

I would agree you have to get some soul into your playing to be more expressive, but playing blues just never was my road in to expressive playing. In fact, it occurred through other types of music, much later.

[Derek Q]

Just to be clear. I do not "blame the blues". I just find that it has been over-emphasized and dumbed down mostly by guitar players. The genre itself I believe has suffered because of this.

I agree with this too. Man, we're actually all in the same band!
:rockin:rockin:rockin:rockin

[sanhozay]

I look at the current state of blues in music and my conclusion is that maybe less of it would be beneficial. I posted my reasons for this conclusion. If you don't agree that's fine but I see no need to be rude and insulting in your disagreement.

Jeepers, I was just discussing it at the same level of crassness that you are, I think my gentleman cap is still on, but sorry if you feel slighted by my comments. :wave

Having said that, there's a large level of irony by your commentary on a thread titled, 'Getting tired of folks dissin' the blue', especially since the way you're dumping on blues music with sweeping generalizations of it's existing state {which I think is in fine condition}. My bad for being minutely offended, I must not quite understand your posting style, because I was under the assumption you were being measuredly critical to generate my kind of response. Sorry for the confusion.

[Derek Q]

Make my dumbness a double:

http://www.kgnu.org/africanroots/afpics/ali_bonnie.jpg

Ali Farka Toure and Bonnie???????

Ya killin' me San.... ya killin' me! :aok

[HiddenCharms]

I love blues music and have played and listened to it for years. It doesn't bother me when someone tells me they don't enjoy blues music. We all have different tastes. Preferrably their opinion is based on some actual time spent listening to the music. I say that only because, if they haven't actually listened, they may be depriving themselves of something they might in fact like. I know that I have been pleasantly surprised when I've given something a legitimate shot only to find out that it appeals to me more than I ever thought it would.
I find myself annoyed when people dismiss the blues as a simple form of music that anyone can play. The abundance of mediocre blues players should dispell that theory. As I get older, this attitude bothers me less and less. I've come to realize that many people are prone to form and share uneducated opinions. I'm guilty of doing the same thing. I do this less as I mature. I have found, throughout the years, that when I investigate almost anything (including different genres of music), I find that there is so much more depth, to whatever it is, than I initially expected.
Lastly, my experiences in both the visual and performing arts, has led me to the belief that there are brilliant artists and performers in all genres of music and art, as well those who are not. There are no (or few) bad forms of music; just inadequate practioners. And those individuals may just grow to be amazing (or not).

[zztomato]

Jeepers, I was just discussing it at the same level of crassness that you are, I think my gentleman cap is still on, but sorry if you feel slighted by my comments. :wave

Having said that, there's a large level of irony by your commentary on a thread titled, 'Getting tired of folks dissin' the blue', especially since the way you're dumping on blues music with sweeping generalizations of it's existing state {which I think is in fine condition}. My bad for being minutely offended, I must not quite understand your posting style, because I was under the assumption you were being measuredly critical to generate my kind of response. Sorry for the confusion.

You told me to "find a little love in your heart that extends beyond the end of your pedal board". That's a personal comment of a negative nature that is completely unfounded by any opinion I expressed in this thread.
What exactly are you saying there?
None of my posts are crass. I was certainly not being measuredly critical in order to generate your kind of response - (insults)- disagreement, sure.
Also, when discussing things in general terms as I have been, sweeping generalizations are inevitable.

[StompBoxBlues]

I love blues music and have played and listened to it for years. It doesn't bother me when someone tells me they don't enjoy blues music. We all have different tastes. Preferrably their opinion is based on some actual time spent listening to the music. I say that only because, if they haven't actually listened, they may be depriving themselves of something they might in fact like. I know that I have been pleasantly surprised when I've given something a legitimate shot only to find out that it appeals to me more than I ever thought it would.
I find myself annoyed when people dismiss the blues as a simple form of music that anyone can play. The abundance of mediocre blues players should dispell that theory. As I get older, this attitude bothers me less and less. I've come to realize that many people are prone to form and share uneducated opinions. I'm guilty of doing the same thing. I do this less as I mature. I have found, throughout the years, that when I investigate almost anything (including different genres of music), I find that there is so much more depth, to whatever it is, than I initially expected.
Lastly, my experiences in both the visual and performing arts, has led me to the belief that there are brilliant artists and performers in all genres of music and art, as well those who are not. There are no (or few) bad forms of music; just inadequate practioners. And those individuals may just grow to be amazing (or not).

Great post!

I just wanted to add...in my experience the "blues" almost always has a HUMOR in it that has been somewhat lost. In some cases obvious and in other less obvious but always there.

BB King singin many of his songs "I gave you seven children....and now you want to give 'em back!", or "it's in him, and it's gotta come out", or "got my Mojo Working!", etc., etc.

Rarely was it meant totally seriously. It was parody of bad times, or defanging bad times. It was joyous mostly. It was celebrating "you can't keep me down as much as you think". It was bravado. It was irony.

But nowdays it is "reverent" and that is DEATH to humor, spitting in the face of adversity, and innovation.

It's also kind of the "making a big deal out of something"...taking something that is wonderful for exactly what it is, but trying to make it "more" than it is...more important, more meaningful. The real blues to me is the story, and the guitar (or in Dixieland versions, more humor and horns). In even making a big deal about "the blues" we lose a LOT of what it really is.

We ruin everything when we take it all too seriously.

[zztomato]

Great post!

I just wanted to add...in my experience the "blues" almost always has a HUMOR in it that has been somewhat lost. In some cases obvious and in other less obvious but always there.

BB King singin many of his songs "I gave you seven children....and now you want to give 'em back!", or "it's in him, and it's gotta come out", or "got my Mojo Working!", etc., etc.

Rarely was it meant totally seriously. It was parody of bad times, or defanging bad times. It was joyous mostly. It was celebrating "you can't keep me down as much as you think". It was bravado. It was irony.

But nowdays it is "reverent" and that is DEATH to humor, spitting in the face of adversity, and innovation.

It's also kind of the "making a big deal out of something"...taking something that is wonderful for exactly what it is, but trying to make it "more" than it is...more important, more meaningful. The real blues to me is the story, and the guitar (or in Dixieland versions, more humor and horns). In even making a big deal about "the blues" we lose a LOT of what it really is.

We ruin everything when we take it all too seriously.

well put

[sanhozay]

We ruin everything when we take it all too seriously.


:drink

[Scott Miller]

The idea that someone has to be able to play the blues to be a good guitarist in other styles, is ridiculous.

Yep. I've heard some awesome jazz players who can't play blues, and they know it. It doesn't bother them in the least, they know that blues is different from jazz. Oh sure, they can play the notes, and they can play what jazz players call "a blues," but it's not blues. Most jazz players know enough to know the difference.

In my limited experience of when I have seen disgruntled guitar players complaining about the blues police, it's because someone has told them they can't play blues very well. And yet, they are fabulous musicians; they can play all sorts of awesome things. And someone is telling them they can't play blues? The nerve! Instead of looking at themselves, and figuring out what is wrong with their blues playing, they assume something is wrong with the listener, hence the "blues police" moniker.

[hitchcockblonde]

A few good points here and there among the trolling and name-calling. I'll toss out a few points that may or may not be relevant...

To say things that imply someone who can't play and understand blues isn't a real musician is ethnocentrism in one of its silliest forms. I present two points. First my wife sings in my band, plays cello, loves music, and knows jack s**t about the blues. She is from Sweden, not a real hotbed of the genre. I'm glad she's singing in our band, too. Second, I can name a lot of players I admire who probably are not very adept or even appreciative of the ol' I-IV-V. Off the top of my head, I think the Edge is a really distinctive, imaginative, competent guitarist whose work owes very little to blues playing.

My problem with blues is that people at once want to preserve it in amber, untouched by time, but imitate this virgin condition endlessly, like countless art students all copying Van Gogh's sunflowers until the end of time. The popular music world has changed and is always changing, so my ears have changed. I can't un-hear hip hop, noise music, prog, indie, shoegaze, downtempo, free jazz, crunk... they have colored my tastes and perceptions so hearing people try to keep writing and performing new blues but in the exact styles of thirty or fifty years ago is boring.

I can respect and enjoy older blues for its historic impact and a sense of grittiness, urgency, and freshness that I think comes through in those recordings. I can respect and enjoy even more people taking it into new directions, like Marc Ribot at times, and in particular the Black Keys, who fuse postmodern mashup techniques with old blues and fuzz guitar and weird recording technologies.

The guys with grey ponytails doing this vaguely Chicago style blues, endlessly recycling Buddy Guy licks and doing their gruff ol' Delta voices, then packing their boo-teek gear into the back of the minivan seem kind of silly and I rarely hear anything interesting.

[sanhozay]

A few good points here and there among the trolling and name-calling.


The guys with grey ponytails doing this vaguely Chicago style blues, endlessly recycling Buddy Guy licks and doing their gruff ol' Delta voices, then packing their boo-teek gear into the back of the minivan seem kind of silly...

:roll

Not name calling by name but calling out and, ultimately labeling = CLASSIC :Devil

I am skeptical of the alleged musicians whom have strong opinions about the genres they don't participate in. I muzzle when it's not my bag, and I embrace, regardless, of whose holding the bag.

[hitchcockblonde]

No, now :D That was gentle fun... it IS a little silly ya have to admit!

[sanhozay]

No, now :D That was gentle fun... it IS a little silly ya have to admit!

I'll admit... The goatee & ponytail are not a middle aged man's best friend. Now, the soul patch! Chicks love those soul patches :love:

[musicofanatic5]

I have allowed myself to get sucked into this seven-year-old spitballing in the past because of my love for and involvement in blues music (as ONE of the types of music I love and play). Every time I read crap like this I just think about all the great contributors to/creators in blues music I get to play with (I am so f*cking fortunate!! I don't need to brag, but check my myspace bio if you wish to know) and I am fully satisfied that the detractors don't have any idea (read: nof*ckingideawhatsof*ckingever) what they are talking about.

By the way, to the utterly confused: blues music is about singing, not gtr playing. If there is not a bonefide vocal deliverer of the song, all the gtr wanking in the world doesn't amount to spit.

Additionally: I happens that I have both a ponytail and a goatee. And whatever musical credibility to necessary to make it a total non-issue!

Hudpucker-tell Johnny Holmes Jon Ross says hi!

[StompBoxBlues]

First my wife sings in my band, plays cello, loves music, and knows jack s**t about the blues. She is from Sweden, not a real hotbed of the genre.

You made some great points, I really enjoyed your post, but this little part of it...I just had to say.

I grew up in a suburb of Chicago (I was born in the mid 50's) and heard blues all my life pretty much. I hitchhiked out to California in the 80's and lived there for over a decade, THEN moved to Norway. ALSO not a "hotbed" of the genre.

The funniest things to me were...
1) when I went into the blues "miljø" (environment) both at jams and a blues band I played with for several years, NOBODY...not ONE person gave me any more cred on the blues than they themselves had. Sure I was asked a few questions, but mainly they were to try and "catch me" and prove that I didn't know as much as that person about the blues.

2) probably, what they did was totally right..even though I grew up with the blues, I didn' OWN them..but..

3) Even though many sang "the blues" with fairy heavy norwegian accents and I actually can sing blues, there was never any deferment to me like "well..you actually ARE american, so maybe you should sing this song".

The only acknowledgement I got was when they asked me to give them feedback on their pronounciation and getting the right accent. It didn't take me long to realize they really just wanted me to "approve" them..they weren't actually that interested in "getting it right" but more in SEEMING more authentic.

Granted, I could have (as I have seen others from the US do here in Norway) played up my roots, that I was somehow more "authentic" with the blues, but we from the US know...I was just a white kid from the suburbs that loved the blues ever since I heard B.B. King, and had no more "insight" than I would have had had I been born in Austria or China.

I've seen folk come from the US that were total "pretenders" but they get a huge leg up because they are "from the US" and they get cred that I as an american see as bull...they aren't that good...I didn't play that. I don't have that killer instinct...

Still, it was funny as hell that when I suggested some songs, they would tell me "no...that isn't REAL blues! We only want to do REAL blues!" when I KNOW that "bluesmen" did that exact song, or that a song could be done as blues. But no...they were totally strict.

It's what I am trying to say we are also doing in the US...romanticising the blues. Making it something it never was but that we wish it was.

It's all bull. When I hear Blind Willie Johnson, or Muddy, or Taj Mahal, or BB King, or Robert Johnson, or T-Bone Walker, or Leadbelly, or Howlin Wolf, or etc. etc. I hear what THEY thought was the blues, or just what they cam with. Sure, some of them marketed themselves as the "real" blues, but it is a total con.

The REAL blues moves you. it rocks your world. It surprises you even though it is limited in a lot of ways. The real blues is like a contest to see who can do the best version of about three or four different songs.

But I did get a kick out of my norwegian buddies being all sanctimonious over what was REAL..

To me, and I hate when my group now comes up with "why don't we do one of their songs?", the "blues" I can't stand even though I can admire their musicianship is like Gary Moore, Joe Bonnamassa (the BIG deal here now),etc. For me, I hate when a band member sends me a song by someone doing a slick version of a song I know already as a real blues song. I HATE that...I keep wanting to say "listen to the original, and lets see if WE can make something new out of it"...

[Hovercraftpilot]

I hear dom7's and diminished in Bach! sounds like ther blues to me!

Sure way to attract "blues dissers": start a thread about "I'm tired of blues dissers"...

Gawd, I'm glad everyone doesn't play blues gtr!!

I am not a classical aficionado by all means. I don't agree with aforementioned quote above. What a burning hunk of p••p.


I would be a better player if payed more attention to the blues. There are many bands I like and a lot of blues is running through it: Bad Religion, Nofx etc.
You can't escape it!

Hell what do I know of music. I am a 30+ year old man trying to get punk rock out of a Strat copy.:roll

But here is a clip I found funny:hide2

watch?v=ZaM6lTmhnak&feature=related

(hope the link worked)

[Hovercraftpilot]

Oops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaM6lTmhnak&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaM6lTmhnak

[Jay Mitchell]

Yep. I've heard some awesome jazz players who can't play blues, and they know it.Who might those players be? Just curious.

[Funky54]

"College kid bands playing Son House..."

Where does this occur? On this planet?

Dude! I live in Central Florida, Every Musician under 30 plays nothing but stripped down, Harp & Slide on every song. They are all stripped to nothing, same uninteresting simple songs..worst, they are smug and think everyone, and I do mean everyone else, is a sell out if you don't play the same. They lecture you and say "You arent a real musician if you play the sell out music" (rock) They give you, like a broken record, this crap, of how it has no soul, you don't get the feeling if you dont play what we play. The smug attitude and lectures are what I hate the most. They all play the stuff you guys act like, is barried treasure. Try every local bar every set hearing the same stuff over and over again. I have come to a point where I cringe just hearing a harp. I use to admire and respect slide. Tried learning some for some songs...Now I hope I never hear it again. Well at least for a good while.

Its not the music as much as the lecture and BS. Rock is rock!!! Quit telling me its theft and acting superior. I'm sick of the stripped down songs and the lack luster boring dreer. I'm tired of songs about the devil and steam trains. Its enough to make Foreigner sound profound.

I actually am thinking my wife and I are gonna move I hate it so much. I wanna move where people want to hear VH, FOO, and maybe some Thin Lizzy. I am at a point I would rather never hear a blues song again. I use to like some of it, and appreciated the hard work and ability of the songs I didn't like. Now Cause the attitude and the "scene" I hate it. If a band wants to play stuff thats cool, but don't come crapping on my door saying I'm a sell out, and put down good music. Jerk off told me "All Right Now" was cheesy???? So I tried playing a couple of Cars tunes, He rolled his eyes and couldn't get it to save his life...so next I tried Foo's Ever Long. He actually told me that, that music is "souless" I never wanna be around any of those Jack wholes again. Why call it a jam night if you can't jam? I play for an hour this three chord crap, an he cant play one rock song? Another place I played a weezer song and this guy with a goofey hat comes out with a loud mic over powering everyone with a harp...now I might be narrow minded but a Harp and the Sweater song don't fit to good..Idiot even bragged how cool it was. Tried to convince me It was like choice stuff...I hate it now. You can keep it and the bowling shirts.

[hudpucker]

Sounds like quite the coven of blues nazis 'round your area.


The real disservice is that these poseurs ruin it for the bluesmen who want to advance and/or hybridize the genre and who aren't content simply playing 'tribute' music; they get unfairly painted as being just another 'boring' blues player due to the lack of creativity and talent in the aping pool.

[chervokas]

But I did get a kick out of my norwegian buddies being all sanctimonious over what was REAL.....

Well, you know, this mythical notion of "authenticity," keeping it real, haunts a lot of art and a lot of culture, particularly American culture where, as a polyglot nation of immigrants we don't really have a central, shared, tribal identity but instead a mass-constructed identity. (In part the process of that construction has taken place in the contested space of public entertainment. There's always been a dialectic process at work in American popular performance in which an identity is presented in characature on the stage or screen, from the Kentucky Frontiersman of the colonial stage to Woody Allen's nebish, and the notion of authenticity--more accurately stated as the most authentic fake--is conferred by concesus of the audience, becoming in the process part of the broader American identity. But in fact there is no real authenticity in performance.)

(And btw, European fans of American music have often been even more fetishitic about "authenticity" than American fans.)

Claims of authenticity, accusations that one or another artist is not keeping it real, are ubiquitous and cut across genres (Hank Williams is real country, Kenny Chesney isn't....Jay-Z is real hardcore, Puffy isn't...Green Day is fake punk, etc....), but these claims become a particularly loaded in a discussion regarding blues music because of the racial component and America's twisted history of race-based slavery, racial discrimination, commerical exploitation of African American artists early in the music's history, co-optation via cover records, etc.....

When people start talking about "authenticity" in the context of blues performance that word is packed with so many meanings beyond the musical that it derails the whole conversation in terms of whatever flaws or merits the music has.

Furthermore, for my money, it's sheer bullshit. It's my opinion that a performance of any sort is inherently inauthentic (though not inherently unemotional, or historically accurate or inaccurate, if that's a valid measure). When someone starts talking about X blues performer as authentic and Y as inauthentic, I think the whole conversation has gone off the rails and becomes a coded exposition of the participants' attitudes towards race mostly.

[Gas-man]

Well, you know, this mythical notion of "authenticity," keeping it real, haunts a lot of art and a lot of culture, particularly American culture where, as a polyglot nation of immigrants we don't really have a central, shared, tribal identity but instead a mass-constructed identity. (In part the process of that construction has taken place in the contested space of public entertainment. There's always been a dialectic process at work in American popular performance in which an identity is presented in characature on the stage or screen, from the Kentucky Frontiersman of the colonial stage to Woody Allen's nebish, and the notion of authenticity--more accurately stated as the most authentic fake--is conferred by concesus of the audience, becoming in the process part of the broader American identity. But in fact there is no real authenticity in performance.)

(And btw, European fans of American music have often been even more fetishitic about "authenticity" than American fans.)

Claims of authenticity, accusations that one or another artist is not keeping it real, are ubiquitous and cut across genres (Hank Williams is real country, Kenny Chesney isn't....Jay-Z is real hardcore, Puffy isn't...Green Day is fake punk, etc....), but these claims become a particularly loaded in a discussion regarding blues music because of the racial component and America's twisted history of race-based slavery, racial discrimination, commerical exploitation of African American artists early in the music's history, co-optation via cover records, etc.....

When people start talking about "authenticity" in the context of blues performance that word is packed with so many meanings beyond the musical that it derails the whole conversation in terms of whatever flaws or merits the music has.

Furthermore, for my money, it's sheer bullshit. It's my opinion that a performance of any sort is inherently inauthentic (though not inherently unemotional, or historically accurate or inaccurate, if that's a valid measure). When someone starts talking about X blues performer as authentic and Y as inauthentic, I think the whole conversation has gone off the rails and becomes a coded exposition of the participants' attitudes towards race mostly.


Grad student?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4MC2k4qWiXw/R-PTizv9rtI/AAAAAAAAABw/BgZb6z6eWKw/S220/pompous+me+lomo.jpg

[chervokas]

Grad student?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4MC2k4qWiXw/R-PTizv9rtI/AAAAAAAAABw/BgZb6z6eWKw/S220/pompous+me+lomo.jpg


Not me--though I did get an advanced degree in journalism more years ago than I care to admit, but that was more of a trade school program than an academic one even though it was a big name univeristy.......just a thoughtful person who enjoys this board when its an exchange of ideas and experiences, not when it's a middle school playground battle on the order of "Shredding sucks!" "No, blues sucks!"

[zztomato]

Grad student?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4MC2k4qWiXw/R-PTizv9rtI/AAAAAAAAABw/BgZb6z6eWKw/S220/pompous+me+lomo.jpg
nice asscot!

:roll

[HiddenCharms]

Please forgive me Funky54, but you've got a blues song there.

I want to move now Baby. I got to leave this Florida town.
I want to move now Baby. I got to leave this Florida town.
Don't want no Jack Whole blues guys trying to tell me how to get down.

[NashSG]

I think the success of the guitar in rock and roll has kind of altered perceptions of what blues music really was as many of the artists that were really popular in their day are not really held as high now, as their music is filed closer to jazz now.

The blues had been a popular style of music for 30 years really before the classic 50s electric blues happened, but that stuff and the old acoustic guitar stuff is the in the most light, as it is directly tied to rock and roll and the use of the guitar in the music.

[Funky54]

Please forgive me Funky54, but you've got a blues song there.

I want to move now Baby. I got to leave this Florida town.
I want to move now Baby. I got to leave this Florida town.
Don't want no Jack Whole blues guys trying to tell me how to get down.
You have to be white, under 30 and have a 1950's dress hat on to talk like that to me. And make sure in your lecture to me that you tell me this is the music you relate to..that speaks to you. The music that is from deep inside your soul...cause your 20 something white and in a college band..so you relate to corn fields steam trains and such. Explain to me how my listening to Blondie is really just the blues only I dont get it and it was obviously a rip off of some dude in the corn field singing about his oppressions. Make all that fit into the lecture and finish the song for the college kids who watched Jack Black and the little boy out in the middle of nowhere. Next I'm sure they are gonna take bottles and a board and play that on stage for hours too. Bet it sounds the same as in It May Get Loud, aweful.

Lock em all up in a room with Quit Riot playing through some earthquake cabinets for like ten hours.

[B_of_H]

people on here seem to like fake blues more than real blues IMO.

[Funky54]

people on here seem to like fake blues more than real blues IMO.

Give me 5 Blues songs or albums for me to consider for myself, that you consider "real" I'll listen and be polite. I'm not looking for something to bash. I will listen with an open mind. I want to understand the appeal. Don't list more than 5... I might overload. It just might not be my thing and never will. But I'd like to hear something I like, that others could consider Blues. out of thousands of CD's I have one Cd I consider blues. And the pure guys will cringe..Johnny lang. I liked the album and song writting. I wasn't overpleased with the guitar, but it was good.

[HiddenCharms]

Funky54,
I hope you realize my "blues song" was just an attempt at a light-hearted teasing, even though I can tell this issue is frustrating for you. I'm well past twenty and don't wear a blues approved uniform or hair style. While blues is my favorite music, I appreciate many styles of music. I don't know if I would be moved by the same music that you are, but I can tell you that I believe that "feeling", soulfulness, and authenticity are not limited to one style (which I believe reflects your viewpoint as well). I would try not to take it to heart too much what others say. People can be very narrow minded. Listen to what others have to offer and weigh it's validity. If you you believe their opinion has some merit, take what you need or want from it. If you disagree, don't sweat it. Stick to your convictions. There are certainly others who will agree with you.

[greggorypeccary]

Give me 5 Blues songs or albums for me to consider for myself, that you consider "real" I'll listen and be polite. I'm not looking for something to bash. I will listen with an open mind. I want to understand the appeal. Don't list more than 5... I might overload. It just might not be my thing and never will. But I'd like to hear something I like, that others could consider Blues. out of thousands of CD's I have one Cd I consider blues. And the pure guys will cringe..Johnny lang. I liked the album and song writting. I wasn't overpleased with the guitar, but it was good.

Here's a random list of five from my collection (but I'm not the blues police, I listen to stuff like Yes and Al DiMeola too):

B.B. King - Live at the Regal
Albert Collins - Cold Snap
Albert King - Born Under A Bad Sign
Joe Louis Walker - Great Guitars
Luther Allison - Live In Montreux

I left out old, acoustic stuff because I guess you hear enough of that as it is. But I don't listen to much of that stuff myself, more into electric music, though the first Hot Tuna record is the shit.
But you might not like any of this and that's cool, we get it, you like RAWK!! NTTAWWT :dude
But the CDs listed are all great blues records.
:beer

[chervokas]

Here's a random list of five from my collection (but I'm not the blues police, I listen to stuff like Yes and Al DiMeola too):

B.B. King - Live at the Regal
Albert Collins - Cold Snap
Albert King - Born Under A Bad Sign
Joe Louis Walker - Great Guitars
Luther Allison - Live In Montreux

I left out old, acoustic stuff because I guess you hear enough of that as it is. But I don't listen to much of that stuff myself, more into electric music, though the first Hot Tuna record is the shit.
But you might not like any of this and that's cool, we get it, you like RAWK!! NTTAWWT :dude
But the CDs listed are all great blues records.
:beer

Good records but a pretty narrow slice of the genre. Personally I listen to way more pre war acoustic stuff--Blind Lemon Jefferson, Son House (not a lot of pre War recordings there, more 60 folk revival stuff), Charley Patton, Skip James, Robert Johnson that stuff... I favor early 50s BB King over 60s and 70s stuff. But even among electric blues you're offering a pretty narrow slice: no 50s Chess Chicago stuff--Muddy, Howlin' Wolf, Little Walter? If you're just focusing on guitar players none of the great jump band style players? No T-Bone Walker? No Lonnie Johnson? No 1920s Black vaudeville singers? They, after all introduced the blues as a commercial genre--Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith. No John Lee Hooker?

For me one of the problems I have when rock fans and rock guitarists talk about the blues is that sometimes I think their conception of the blues is limited to 60s "lead guitar" blues as played by a handful of guitarists--Buddy Guy, BB King, Albert King, Freddy King, Albert Collins--something that sounds kinda like rock and kinda like contempory blues. I dunno, that stuff isn't bad at all. And Buddy Guy and BB in particular I think are great players. But IMHO the world of blues contains much more interesting and varied music than that.

I think, first and foremost, blues is a singer's music. There's not that much going on harmonically, often a single chord and a single vamp--like all those great Howlin' Wolf records. It's really about how expressively the singer can deliver the appropriate emotion.

[chervokas]

Well, "real" blues I dunno? It's all real blues, but great blues that can satisfy my jones for great blues singing and great blues guitar is BB King's original mid-1950s recording of "Sweet Little Angel"

http://video.baamboo.com/watch/5/video/333677

I assume everyone who has choosen sides in the blues debate is familiar with this one. But had to post the link anyway...it's too good a performance not to.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

A few good points here and there among the trolling and name-calling. I'll toss out a few points that may or may not be relevant...

To say things that imply someone who can't play and understand blues isn't a real musician is ethnocentrism in one of its silliest forms. I present two points. First my wife sings in my band, plays cello, loves music, and knows jack s**t about the blues. She is from Sweden, not a real hotbed of the genre. I'm glad she's singing in our band, too. Second, I can name a lot of players I admire who probably are not very adept or even appreciative of the ol' I-IV-V. Off the top of my head, I think the Edge is a really distinctive, imaginative, competent guitarist whose work owes very little to blues playing.

My problem with blues is that people at once want to preserve it in amber, untouched by time, but imitate this virgin condition endlessly, like countless art students all copying Van Gogh's sunflowers until the end of time. The popular music world has changed and is always changing, so my ears have changed. I can't un-hear hip hop, noise music, prog, indie, shoegaze, downtempo, free jazz, crunk... they have colored my tastes and perceptions so hearing people try to keep writing and performing new blues but in the exact styles of thirty or fifty years ago is boring.

I can respect and enjoy older blues for its historic impact and a sense of grittiness, urgency, and freshness that I think comes through in those recordings. I can respect and enjoy even more people taking it into new directions, like Marc Ribot at times, and in particular the Black Keys, who fuse postmodern mashup techniques with old blues and fuzz guitar and weird recording technologies.

The guys with grey ponytails doing this vaguely Chicago style blues, endlessly recycling Buddy Guy licks and doing their gruff ol' Delta voices, then packing their boo-teek gear into the back of the minivan seem kind of silly and I rarely hear anything interesting.

Just like Esteban - I'll just bet he wears tie-dye t-shirts when he isn't making an appearance, and is really trying to look all dark and serious...

[JTM100]

Dude! I live in Central Florida, Every Musician under 30 plays nothing but stripped down, Harp & Slide on every song. They are all stripped to nothing, same uninteresting simple songs..worst, they are smug and think everyone, and I do mean everyone else, is a sell out if you don't play the same. They lecture you and say "You arent a real musician if you play the sell out music" (rock) They give you, like a broken record, this crap, of how it has no soul, you don't get the feeling if you dont play what we play. The smug attitude and lectures are what I hate the most. They all play the stuff you guys act like, is barried treasure. Try every local bar every set hearing the same stuff over and over again. I have come to a point where I cringe just hearing a harp. I use to admire and respect slide. Tried learning some for some songs...Now I hope I never hear it again. Well at least for a good while.

Its not the music as much as the lecture and BS. Rock is rock!!! Quit telling me its theft and acting superior. I'm sick of the stripped down songs and the lack luster boring dreer. I'm tired of songs about the devil and steam trains. Its enough to make Foreigner sound profound.

I actually am thinking my wife and I are gonna move I hate it so much. I wanna move where people want to hear VH, FOO, and maybe some Thin Lizzy. I am at a point I would rather never hear a blues song again. I use to like some of it, and appreciated the hard work and ability of the songs I didn't like. Now Cause the attitude and the "scene" I hate it. If a band wants to play stuff thats cool, but don't come crapping on my door saying I'm a sell out, and put down good music. Jerk off told me "All Right Now" was cheesy???? So I tried playing a couple of Cars tunes, He rolled his eyes and couldn't get it to save his life...so next I tried Foo's Ever Long. He actually told me that, that music is "souless" I never wanna be around any of those Jack wholes again. Why call it a jam night if you can't jam? I play for an hour this three chord crap, an he cant play one rock song? Another place I played a weezer song and this guy with a goofey hat comes out with a loud mic over powering everyone with a harp...now I might be narrow minded but a Harp and the Sweater song don't fit to good..Idiot even bragged how cool it was. Tried to convince me It was like choice stuff...I hate it now. You can keep it and the bowling shirts.


Yes, you're in Central , FL alright!!!

[S.W.Erdnase]

You made some great points, I really enjoyed your post, but this little part of it...I just had to say.

I grew up in a suburb of Chicago (I was born in the mid 50's) and heard blues all my life pretty much. I hitchhiked out to California in the 80's and lived there for over a decade, THEN moved to Norway. ALSO not a "hotbed" of the genre.

The funniest things to me were...
1) when I went into the blues "miljø" (environment) both at jams and a blues band I played with for several years, NOBODY...not ONE person gave me any more cred on the blues than they themselves had. Sure I was asked a few questions, but mainly they were to try and "catch me" and prove that I didn't know as much as that person about the blues.

2) probably, what they did was totally right..even though I grew up with the blues, I didn' OWN them..but..

3) Even though many sang "the blues" with fairy heavy norwegian accents and I actually can sing blues, there was never any deferment to me like "well..you actually ARE american, so maybe you should sing this song".

The only acknowledgement I got was when they asked me to give them feedback on their pronounciation and getting the right accent. It didn't take me long to realize they really just wanted me to "approve" them..they weren't actually that interested in "getting it right" but more in SEEMING more authentic.

Granted, I could have (as I have seen others from the US do here in Norway) played up my roots, that I was somehow more "authentic" with the blues, but we from the US know...I was just a white kid from the suburbs that loved the blues ever since I heard B.B. King, and had no more "insight" than I would have had had I been born in Austria or China.

I've seen folk come from the US that were total "pretenders" but they get a huge leg up because they are "from the US" and they get cred that I as an american see as bull...they aren't that good...I didn't play that. I don't have that killer instinct...

Still, it was funny as hell that when I suggested some songs, they would tell me "no...that isn't REAL blues! We only want to do REAL blues!" when I KNOW that "bluesmen" did that exact song, or that a song could be done as blues. But no...they were totally strict.

It's what I am trying to say we are also doing in the US...romanticising the blues. Making it something it never was but that we wish it was.

It's all bull. When I hear Blind Willie Johnson, or Muddy, or Taj Mahal, or BB King, or Robert Johnson, or T-Bone Walker, or Leadbelly, or Howlin Wolf, or etc. etc. I hear what THEY thought was the blues, or just what they cam with. Sure, some of them marketed themselves as the "real" blues, but it is a total con.

The REAL blues moves you. it rocks your world. It surprises you even though it is limited in a lot of ways. The real blues is like a contest to see who can do the best version of about three or four different songs.

But I did get a kick out of my norwegian buddies being all sanctimonious over what was REAL..

To me, and I hate when my group now comes up with "why don't we do one of their songs?", the "blues" I can't stand even though I can admire their musicianship is like Gary Moore, Joe Bonnamassa (the BIG deal here now),etc. For me, I hate when a band member sends me a song by someone doing a slick version of a song I know already as a real blues song. I HATE that...I keep wanting to say "listen to the original, and lets see if WE can make something new out of it"...

Great, thoughtful post.

[S.W.Erdnase]

My problem with blues is that people at once want to preserve it in amber, untouched by time, but imitate this virgin condition endlessly, like countless art students all copying Van Gogh's sunflowers until the end of time. The popular music world has changed and is always changing, so my ears have changed. I can't un-hear hip hop, noise music, prog, indie, shoegaze, downtempo, free jazz, crunk... they have colored my tastes and perceptions so hearing people try to keep writing and performing new blues but in the exact styles of thirty or fifty years ago is boring.

People do that with EVERY genre - including the ones you held up as impacting on your ability to enjoy older blues. How come you don't get so fired up at all the tribute bands doing rock covers, or the jazz, prog, indie and country guys who are trying to nail their heroes material?

This isn't a binary issue. It's not blues or nothing when it comes to emulating predecessors.

But in all genres, if you want to hear people who are keeping it fresh (as opposed to innovating - I don't think there's anything new in music anymore, in any genre), you can find them. The onus is on you to look harder and also to avoid blues jams or corner bars. Why keep hitting your head against a brick wall?

[S.W.Erdnase]

I'm sick of the stripped down songs and the lack luster boring dreer. I'm tired of songs about the devil and steam trains. Its enough to make Foreigner sound profound.

The devil? Steam trains? Exaggerate much?

I actually am thinking my wife and I are gonna move I hate it so much. I wanna move where people want to hear VH, FOO, and maybe some Thin Lizzy.

Yeah. Move back to the 70s and early 80s! I wish the whole world was playing nothing but VH and Lizzie! There ought to be a law to force everyone to play them!

Okay, I better choo-choo-ch-boogie outta here, as it musta been the devil that turned my baby down.

:aok

[stevieboy]

Me too, I'm gonna catch the first thing smokin'.

[DC1]

I try to stay out of blues threads. But this one made me realize something.

Some art forms quickly make asses out of those who try to talk about them too much.

When someone plays blues, you know if they have something going on pretty damn quick. It doesn't need all this analysis. It doesn't matter if some dood thinks it's boring, it doesn't matter how many guys in bowling shirts try to play it, it's all jibba jabba...

I have never seen a blues thread that made a coherent point and did not end up with a bunch of pissed off people spluttering nonsense...

And that's all I'm going to say. Play your guit, we'll know if you got something or not.


dc

[Buddy Boy]

"Son, you're playin' pretty good, but can you do something about that tone?":wave

[DC1]

"Son, you're playin' pretty good, but can you do something about that tone?":wave

I got yer tone, right over here!



:roll




dc

[hitchcockblonde]

People do that with EVERY genre - including the ones you held up as impacting on your ability to enjoy older blues. How come you don't get so fired up at all the tribute bands doing rock covers, or the jazz, prog, indie and country guys who are trying to nail their heroes material?

Because the title of this thread is not "Ever get tired of people dissin' classic rock?" I'll avoid a bar with a band plowing through a re-hash of "Whiter Shade of Pale" or "Walk This Way" just as quickly as if they were playing "The Thrill is Gone." I don't even really want to hear Vivaldi's Four Seasons that often even though it's a miraculous piece of music. I want to hear something fresh.

Popular music, the stuff you and I play, is fun to write and play and listen to but I don't think it's so important that it deserves to be canonized, stuck on an altar, slavishly repeated. I find it more interesting to hear a band of Tibeten monks play Summertime Blues on glass harmonica and singing saw in 7/8 time than to hear another blues growler play it the way I've already heard it a hundred times.

[Paul Conway]

I'm an appalling 'blues' player in the trad sense - I never learned the licks, and I find 99% of it deathly dull. But it's not the fault of the genre. I much appreciate the fact that as a framework, it enables players off all abilities - even if they don't speak the same verbal language - to play together.

The phrasing and touch of someone like BB King totally kills me. I mean, wow. 'Blues is King'......pitched against that, you've got a plethora of guys who play blues like it's bad hard rock or something.

I think that - like any genre - whether I like it or not is entirely due to the player. Then again I'm not the kind of person who will read any book if it's a thriller, or something: James Ellroy - yes, in the main; Dan Brown - err..no thanks.

[greggorypeccary]

Good records but a pretty narrow slice of the genre. Blah, Blah, Blah....

Why am I not surprised that my reply to Funky54 with five random recordings that he might dig was criticized? Sorry if my choices aren't "blues enough". :nono

I could have listed Billie Holiday, any of the Chess stuff, Bessie Smith, JLH, whatever, but I just looked at my CDs and picked five that a guy who admits to just wanting to ROCK might check out and dig. So some are more contemporary or modern, what's wrong with that? :dunno

Maybe if everyone else here actually listed some recordings for him to check out, instead of trying to define what is, and isn't, "real blues" he might find some stuff he likes. :phones

BTW chervokas, I like and listen to most of the players/singers you listed (except the pre-war stuff, never really got into that) and they all are great. :wave

And just because this hasn't been posted in this thread yet:
zfu8Dx0N6uY

[mannish]

I am a total blues nerd from top to bottom and real surprised/pleased his thread has continued. I have had these same discussions for 20+ years which is pretty amazing.

[chervokas]

Why am I not surprised that my reply to Funky54 with five random recordings that he might dig was criticized? Sorry if my choices aren't "blues enough". :nono

I could have listed Billie Holiday, any of the Chess stuff, Bessie Smith, JLH, whatever, but I just looked at my CDs and picked five that a guy who admits to just wanting to ROCK might check out and dig. So some are more contemporary or modern, what's wrong with that? :dunno

Maybe if everyone else here actually listed some recordings for him to check out, instead of trying to define what is, and isn't, "real blues" he might find some stuff he likes. :phones

BTW chervokas, I like and listen to most of the players/singers you listed (except the pre-war stuff, never really got into that) and they all are great. :wave

And just because this hasn't been posted in this thread yet:
zfu8Dx0N6uY

Not trying to give you a hard time really...sorry if it came off that way. I just wanted to note that there's so much more to the genre than the 60s blues guitar classics that I fear for many around here are the beginning and ending of their idea of "real blues."

I actually thought about listing some records. But then I though the poster just didn't seem like a guy who would be converted by Howlin' Wolf singing "I Asked for Water" with it's single chord vamp, out of tune recording. I think it's about as great as a blues record gets but I just didn't think it would work. He may or may not ever become a blues fan. But blues that's kinda like rock to me never converts are rock fan. You either dig the genre or your don't.

Yeah, some rock fans only like that kid of stuff. I have a friend, good ears. Listens to rock and some classical and a very narrow slice of jazz. Loves that 60s electric guitar blues. Won't listen to anything else in the genre really.

I did post a link to BB King's first recording (from the mid 1950s) of Little Sweet Angel as a compromise--great singing, great guitar, pre-rock so it doesn't sound like a compromise with rock which is sometimes what I hear in those 60s records.

[mrkenny]

I'm always surfing around looking for Blues guitar guy's. A while back I found these guys. Igor is from Brazil and Anders is from Sweden. Igor sometimes posts on the West Coast Blues Forum on the Gear Page.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjGBZdwp5Rk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dJwtzcb-dY&feature=related

[S.W.Erdnase]

Because the title of this thread is not "Ever get tired of people dissin' classic rock?" I'll avoid a bar with a band plowing through a re-hash of "Whiter Shade of Pale" or "Walk This Way" just as quickly as if they were playing "The Thrill is Gone."

Well there ya go. Problem solved.

I find it more interesting to hear a band of Tibeten monks play Summertime Blues on glass harmonica and singing saw in 7/8 time than to hear another blues growler play it the way I've already heard it a hundred times.

Frankly, I'll pass on both interpretations. There are only two kinds of music, as Ellington said, and I think the two examples you cited fall into the "bad" category. I don't want tired cliches, but equally I don't want Emperor's New Clothes pretentiousness.

[Paul Conway]

A while back, people around here were talking about a European guy...maybe Scandinavian....wish I could remember his name, as he had a really nice feel and quite a novel, harmonically sophisticated (but not overly so) take on it.

(Wracks brain.....)

[Scott Miller]

a European guy...maybe Scandinavian....

Django Rienhart?

Just kidding. Maybe:
Kid Andersen
Vidar Busk
Anders Llewynn (spelling most likely wrong)
The Italian guy who SMOKES... Enrico Cava... something
Mike Sanchez is from England, I think

Where did I put my memory pills?

[Nielsnielsniels]

I'm always surfing around looking for Blues guitar guy's. A while back I found these guys. Igor is from Brazil and Anders is from Sweden. Igor sometimes posts on the West Coast Blues Forum on the Gear Page.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjGBZdwp5Rk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dJwtzcb-dY&feature=related

What style of blues is that Brazillian guy playing?

[Scott Miller]

Hey, I thought of an example of where I am the Blues Police. Let's say I'm on a gig, and I'm ready to invite someone to sit in, and I have my choice of:

1. An average guitar player who understands the blues feel.

2. An awesome guitar player who can play almost as good as me :cool: but plays everything like blues rock.

I would choose the average guy because, whereas he might not inspire the audience to lofty heights of bluesossity, as I do, :cool: at least he wouldn't kill the groove, like the awesome guy would. That would, of course, make the awesome guy think that he's being shunned because I'm a purist, blues nazi, blah blah blah. No, it's just that he would make the music sound not so good.

Now, let's pretend that the awesome guy approaches me after the show, buys all 12 of my CDs (I'm kind of padding reality here) and asks why I let the average guy sit in, and not him, the awesome guy. What kind of answer am I to give? Obviously "Because he plays better" is sort of beside the point. "Because he knows what blues is" would be a more accurate answer, but the awesome guys knows what blues is too, so that would just get me a Blues Police badge. How about "Because our styles are more compatible." Yeah, that might work, but it's kind of weasely. I think "Because I'm banging his sister" is the best answer.

[S.W.Erdnase]

Excellent!

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Everything we guitarists do comes right down to "banging," in one way or another.

[Buddy Boy]

My buddy always says "well, you did the best you could,":phonesI got yer tone, right over here!



:roll




dc

[Paul Conway]

Django Rienhart?

Just kidding. Maybe:
Kid Andersen
Vidar Busk
Anders Llewynn (spelling most likely wrong)
The Italian guy who SMOKES... Enrico Cava... something
Mike Sanchez is from England, I think

Where did I put my memory pills?

Vidar...rings a bell.

I have your pills. I took them all. And they didn't help.......:(

[mrkenny]

Django Rienhart?

Just kidding. Maybe:
Kid Andersen
Vidar Busk
Anders Llewynn (spelling most likely wrong)
The Italian guy who SMOKES... Enrico Cava... something
Mike Sanchez is from England, I think

Where did I put my memory pills?


Enrico Crivellaro, Italian guy I believe. Here he is with with his some times partner Raphael Wressnig. Laid back organ /guitar combo, groovalicious stuff. Jimmy McGriff/Hank Crawford feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=470dNSeXuaI&feature=related


Kid Andersen, not sure about his roots but here he is throwin' down. I like him, he seems to have big fun with Rick and the Nightcats


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA7sh7q5Eh0&feature=related

[musicofanatic5]

Vidar...rings a bell.

I have your pills. I took them all. And they didn't help.......:(


I have played with Vidar Busk. Blues po-lice sez: Not blues! Exciting player, tho...

Took a sauna in Sweden with Enrico and Rapheal once. Imagine what you will...!

Glad to know you would (hypothetically) have me sit in at your gig, Scott!

[Scott Miller]

The last I heard, Vidar Busk was having an excellent time making ring tones.

TGP thread 2110: "Getting tired of folks dissin' the ring tones!!!"

[RocksOff]

I get just as tired of people dissing blues influences as I get tired of blues guys dissing everything that isn't the blues.

[bluesjuke]

(not too much blues in the Bach solo violin sonantas and partitas!).


Well R&B goes back to his time;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X20woQAh-c4

[Paul Conway]

The last I heard, Vidar Busk was having an excellent time making ring tones.

TGP thread 2110: "Getting tired of folks dissin' the ring tones!!!"

Well, if that's the case, can I have the opening solo of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDoaBtn8cwI)for mine?

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

When was the last time you heard someone say the word "dissin'," anyway?

I mean, really?

[kurtsstuff]

Umm....most self proclaimed blues players...aren't. Around these parts anyways..

[Polynitro]

When was the last time you heard someone say the word "dissin'," anyway?

I mean, really?

I saw a guy with a denim jacket that said, "Dont Diss Me". This was back in 1988.

I'm tired off all the 'Serious Bluesmen' with thier porkpie hats and frilly shirts. I saw BB King half a dozen times and he was always smiling and put on a great show.

Blues is about having a good time. :cool:

Not crying in your beer-thats what Country is for!

[agradywills]

Blues is TIRED. Why can't we give the Blues a rest?

[RobRowland]

I'm going to try to save this thread with a bit of Guthrie, it's worth a shot -


6t9jtxjH6RI

Not particularily relevant to the discussion, but brilliant notheless.

[S.W.Erdnase]

Umm....most self proclaimed blues players...aren't. Around these parts anyways..

Look, man. If people want to play Jimmy Page and Gary Moore stuff and say it's blues... where's the harm in it? As long as they keep it between consenting adults, I'm okay with it.

[Funky54]

The devil? Steam trains? Exaggerate much?



Yeah. Move back to the 70s and early 80s! I wish the whole world was playing nothing but VH and Lizzie! There ought to be a law to force everyone to play them!

Okay, I better choo-choo-ch-boogie outta here, as it musta been the devil that turned my baby down.

:aok
Yeah your right...and I guess you can time portal back to 1920-30's to the corn field so every body can play Son House.

Sorry you didn't mention Foo? What up? Mr. Pee body is gonna have to work over time going back and forth for me, I like a lot of music from lots of decades. If I ever travel back far enough to visit you, I'll say hi. Might be fun. I'm sure your heros will be sitting on porches, listening to the radio, digging Glen Miller, trying to bend their guitar strings to sound like horns while other folk tell them their sound is a ripp off of the great horn players.