Chord question - EbMaj7 and F7 over Cm

[bluesman]

In Robben Ford's Art of Rhythm Blues DVD, Robben goes through Oasis in detail. He says he often plays EbMaj7 and F7 over that Cm4 (Cm11) chord. I get why the EbMaj7 works because Cm7 is the vii chord of the Eb harmonized scale. But, in the Eb harmonized scale the F7 would be Fmin7, no? Then why does it sound so good?

[medrawt]

I'm not familiar with the DVD or the song, but I think you're looking at it backwards. Eb over Cm doesn't work because Cm is the vi of Eb, it works because Eb is the III of Cm. Which I'm pointing out because while a traditional C minor scale like you'd learn when starting has an Ab in it, common practice in pop music (and jazz) is to play a natural sixth instead of a flat sixth over many, many, many instances of a minor chord. Especially in situations where you're emphasizing that sound and sitting on it rather than just using it as a passing tone or in an appoggiatura.

That's more of a "because common practice says it does!" answer to "why does it sound so good," but i think "because common practice says it does" is usually more valuable to the end-user improvising musician than trying to get into justifying it.

[Jasco]

In Robben Ford's Art of Rhythm Blues DVD, Robben goes through Oasis in detail. He says he often plays EbMaj7 and F7 over that Cm4 (Cm11) chord. I get why the EbMaj7 works because Cm7 is the vii chord of the Eb harmonized scale. But, in the Eb harmonized scale the F7 would be Fmin7, no? Then why does it sound so good?


F7 over Cm gives you a dorian sound. Or in other words similar to C minor pentatonic with 6 instead of b7.

[SteveStevens]

Ebmaj7 simply outlines the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th of Cmin. F7 outlines the 4th (or 11th) 6th (13) Root and b7 of Cmin.

Break down the substitutions and look at the notes and how they can be justified. He's just thinking about chord tones. Or at least he was when he worked out the subs.:)

You can get a lot out of this approach by playing those same arps in their inversions to find new melodic contours.

Steve

[JonR]

Yep, the whole thing is C dorian mode, and Ebmaj7 and F7 are simply a couple of harmonisations from that scale (same notes as Bb major).
Other chords from the same scale might also work as arps over the Cm - such as Gm7 and Bb.
Remember with dorian mode there are no "avoid notes", so any note can be used as a chord extension - which basically means you can play in arpeggios of any chord you like, it will all fit. (Obviously some will sound better than others: Ebmaj7 and F7 are more inside than some, as chords you could constantly alternate or refer to. In this context Ebmaj7 is simply a rootless Cm9, while F7 is a kind of extended Cm6.)

[frdagaa]

...
Remember with dorian mode there are no "avoid notes"...

Is that true? I thought all major scale harmony had the "avoid note" issue ... and that the beauty of melodic minor harmony was the lack of avoid notes. But I can see it in that all dorian chord tones are of course ok, then there are the 9th, 11th, and 13th (6th), all of which are also ok.

What are the avoid notes? I'd guess that in ionian the 4th is an avoid as it is in mixolydian.

[JonR]

Is that true? I thought all major scale harmony had the "avoid note" issue ... and that the beauty of melodic minor harmony was the lack of avoid notes. But I can see it in that all dorian chord tones are of course ok, then there are the 9th, 11th, and 13th (6th), all of which are also ok. In practice, in functional sequences, the 6/13 of dorian chords tends to be avoided because it's an important note on the following chord. Eg, in Dm7-G7, the B note is perhaps the most important difference between the chords, which can share just about every other note. So a 13 would be left out of the Dm7 for that reason: so that the C can lead down to B on the G7.
If you see a "m6" chord in jazz charts, it generally indicates a melodic minor chord, not a dorian chord.

What are the avoid notes? I'd guess that in ionian the 4th is an avoid as it is in mixolydian.An "avoid note" means a note that disrupts the chord function when added as an extension, usually by making an awkward dissonance with other chord tones.
They are not notes to be avoided altogether (eg when soloing) - just treated with care and used judiciously (if at all).

All modes (tertian chord scales) of the major scale have at least one avoid note, apart from dorian and lydian.


Mode Avoid notes Bad interval with:
Ionian perfect 11th 3rd and maj7
Phrygian b9 and b13 root and 5th
Mixolydian perfect 11th 3rd
Aeolian b13 5th
Locrian b9 root

Notice all the "bad" intervals are minor 9ths, except for the tritone the 11th makes with the maj7 in Ionian. The tritone is not a bad interval in itself of course, only in context over a tonic maj7.

And minor 9ths are not necessarily always bad. You get one in a 7b9 chord, the normal V chord in a minor key.

And the above is only referring to functional harmony anyway. In modal harmony, dissonances which are nasty in key-based harmony may be OK.

BTW, some modes of melodic minor also have avoid notes - eg mode V, mixolydian b6: both 11 and b13 are avoid notes. And mode II, phrygian natural 6, in which the b9 is an avoid note.

[LR1400]

As Tag would say they are all dominant sounds and can sub for one another. You could also use Am7b5 as a sub for any of those as well. All "dominant" sounds.

I know everyone harps on Tag but what he is describing but it is easier to do, remember and use on the fly than many of the other descriptions in this thread and others.

[Tomo]

In Robben Ford's Art of Rhythm Blues DVD, Robben goes through Oasis in detail. He says he often plays EbMaj7 and F7 over that Cm4 (Cm11) chord. I get why the EbMaj7 works because Cm7 is the vii chord of the Eb harmonized scale. But, in the Eb harmonized scale the F7 would be Fmin7, no? Then why does it sound so good?

Eb Major 7th Rt M3 5th M7
Over F7 then F is root now. Same notes become..b7, 9th, 4th(11), M6(13) so Mixo sound? Over C-7 .. very nice sound.... same note become... b3, 5th, b7, 9th.. very popular approach? I found these sounds from coping Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Chet Baker...etc.

Enjoy!

Tomo

[JonR]

As Tag would say they are all dominant sounds and can sub for one another.
You could also use Am7b5 as a sub for any of those as well. All "dominant" sounds.
Maybe Tag ought to speak for himself... ;)

What you're saying is a little confusing in this context. It's C dorian mode. As such, any harmonisation (various chord types) from the scale can work as superimposed chords or arpeggios over the C tonal centre (some a little more "inside" than others as I said).

But none of them are "dominant sounds" in this context. Am7b5 and F7 (alone) have a dominant function in Bb major - but this is in C dorian.
It's technically true that Gm is the dominant chord of C dorian - but that archaic usage may confuse people more than it helps.;)

[bluesman]

To add just a bit more context for those that may be unfamiliar with the tune, which is only three chords, here they are:

Cm4(11)
x3334x

Ebm11
x66676

Bb7#9
6566xx

What he's focusing on in the part I'm talking about is options for playing over the Cm4 chord. The song stays on that chord (same goes for the Ebm11) for an extended period of time compared to the Bb7#9. So he's saying over that Cm4 he often gets a groove going by playing EbMaj7 and F7 back and forth.

[russ6100]

To add just a bit more context for those that may be unfamiliar with the tune, which is only three chords, here they are:

Cm4(11)
x3334x

Ebm11
x66676

Bb7#9
6566xx

What he's focusing on in the part I'm talking about is options for playing over the Cm4 chord. The song stays on that chord (same goes for the Ebm11) for an extended period of time compared to the Bb7#9. So he's saying over that Cm4 he often gets a groove going by playing EbMaj7 and F7 back and forth.

Well the Ebmaj7 and F7 work over Cm11 because all the notes from both of them are either chord tones or natural extensions (9, 11 and 13) of Cm7. Nothing mysterious or complicated.

[gennation]

If I'm strictly over Cm I would use more Ebmaj7 and Bbm9. The F7 would seem to hint at the V7 of a IIm-V7 in the Bb. As the Cm7, Emaj7, and Bbm9 would give him the harmonizing chords ot Cm based on the R, m3, and 5.

I'm not familiar with the song but maybe he's implying the IIm-V7? I'll try and track down the tune on myspace and post a link here.

[guitarjazz]

"Phrygian b9 and b13"
The b9 is the defining note of the Phrygian mode. Why would you want to avoid it?

[Swain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3EPaF3Mtz4



:cool:

[Lucidology]

What is actually mis-leading in a sense... is naming them as specific chords...
When they are actually just note combinations extending from a key center ...
In other words... just part of C- (or C Dorian)

[Old Tele man]

...chord fragments...

[JonR]

"Phrygian b9 and b13"
The b9 is the defining note of the Phrygian mode. Why would you want to avoid it?In phrygian mode itself, you wouldn't. That's because dissonance has a different meaning (or rather no meaning) in modal harmony.
The classic jazz phrygian chord (at least according to Mark Levine ;)) is a "susb9" - 7sus4b9 in full.

However, on a iii chord in a major key (which some people refer to as "phrygian") a b9 and/or b13 are disruptive to the function. We hear the dissonance in a context in which we expect any dissonance to be functional - to be awaiting resolution somewhere. The b9 interval has no natural resolution (AFAIK) - so it just sounds "wrong"; it doesn't "belong".

Of course, the picture is a little fuzzy, because we can argue that (say) an Em7 with a C on top (b13) is an inversion of Cmaj9 - and the iii chord is well known as a substitute for the tonic.
It's muddier in the case of an F on top - the nearest comparison (in note content) is a G13 chord - which has a different function.

[JonR]

What is actually mis-leading in a sense... is naming them as specific chords...
When they are actually just note combinations extending from a key center ...
In other words... just part of C- (or C Dorian)Exactly.
Except that certain note combinations - voiced in 3rds - will have a functional sound that might upset the modal feel. (Eg the "F7" voicing for the reason mike suggests.)