Why did Tom Verlaine hate the Marshall sound?

[dead of night]

Hi. I remember reading an interview with Tom Verlaine in which he referred to the Marshall sound from the seventies as "that sound" that he was trying to avoid at all costs.

Now seeing that this is a pretty revered tone among most guitarists, why do you think Verlaine felt this way?

[sleepingtiger]

Probably because everyone was doing it.

Tony

[timberic]

Probably because everyone was doing it.

Tony

I would agree. His style of playing really wouldn't be complimented by a Marshall IMO.

[Jim Soloway]

Hi. I remember reading an interview with Tom Verlaine in which he referred to the Marshall sound from the seventies as "that sound" that he was trying to avoid at all costs.

Now seeing that this is a pretty revered tone among most guitarists, why do you think Verlaine felt this way?

I disagree that it's "a pretty revered tone among most guitarists". Some like it, some do not. It is a fairly extreme sound and as such it is limited to a certain direction of playing. While it may be ideal for some, I consider it to be absolutely of no use at all for my own playing and pretty much the perfect example of the sound I try to avoid.

[Joe F]

i've seen that name but never listened to him. so thanks for asking.

marshalls are fine if you want that sound. it looks like he did not. and after hearing some songs, I'm glad he was after something else - it's cool.

http://www.thewonder.co.uk/imr.htm

[GarMan]

Tom had his own thing going, and it was nothing like the 70s Gibson plugged into a Marshall Stack rock sound. The guy was playing Jazzmasters and Jaguars that were way out of vogue at the time. He had a unique tone and playing style, and he still does!

[timberic]

i've seen that name but never listened to him. so thanks for asking.

marshalls are fine if you want that sound. it looks like he did not. and after hearing some songs, I'm glad he was after something else - it's cool.

http://www.thewonder.co.uk/imr.htm

If you like what you're hearing, go check out Television's Marquee Moon album. You'll enjoy it for sure.

[Kaji13]

I would agree. His style of playing really wouldn't be complimented by a Marshall IMO.
I agree as well.

[jellyroll]

He wanted beautiful, jangly cleans. Try to get those from a Marshall. Personally I have heard a lot of guitarists get a decent Marshall sound, but for my personal sound they are awful. Any time I have been stuck using one in a backline situation I have been truly miserable. Sounds like playing through a bucket. Just me of course.

[snarkle]

Personally I have heard a lot of guitarists get a decent Marshall sound, but for my personal sound they are awful. Any time I have been stuck using one in a backline situation I have been truly miserable. Sounds like playing through a bucket. Just me of course.

I'm with you on that. Although there are lots of Marshall players I enjoy—does the name James Marshall Hendrix ring a bell?—I've never been able to get any kind of useful tone out of one.


As it happens, Tom Verlaine is one of my favourite musicians, both for his beautiful tone and for his ability to orchestrate multiple guitar parts in the studio. If he tried that using a Marshall, it would just be one big wash...

[Echo Are]

Probably because everyone was doing it.

Tony

I agree also. Plus, it might have been a "punk" thing, y'know we don't wanna use what's massively popular in electric guitardom at the moment. Something like that. I, myself, like both the Marshall and Television's sounds. Tom Verlaine and Richard Lloyd had a cool thing going.

a7L0IYPXKj8&fmt=18

[Furrymonki]

I've owned a Marshall in the (very) distant past and liked it at that time. As my style of playing and sound has changed, a Marshall would not be the go-to amp for me. Back in the 60's and 70's a lot of guitarists used Marshalls but a lot didn't and still don't. Just a matter of personal preference and the sound one is aiming for. Television certainly didn't seem like a Marshall type band to me. They had their own sound.

[Polynitro]

he would sound just as good with marshalls...Im not sure just because he hated marshalls I want to know why. I love marshalls and Fenders, and hiwatts, and ampegs...check out Steve Cropper with a stack of Marshalls he sounds great!

[Tone_Terrific]

Style, in the fashion sense.
Marshalls can be made to work for almost anything.
There is not one Marshall sound, though they have been stereotyped (monotyped?)

[KRosser]

Often I find there's not a big reason WHY you don't or do like something; it just is.

[Baminated]

It is a fairly extreme sound and as such it is limited to a certain direction of playing. While it may be ideal for some, I consider it to be absolutely of no use at all for my own playing and pretty much the perfect example of the sound I try to avoid.

Hmmmmmm . . . . which singular "EXTREME Sound" for the singular "certain direction of playing" ya talkin' about Jim ?

THe killer cleans out of a Superbass Nashville Guys like ?

The deep shimmering semi-cleans Andy Summer from the Police had with his marshalls ?

The round fat lead tone of Zappa ?

Jeff Beck's Tones from the 60's to now ?

Duane Allman's tone ?

Are all of those tones just one singular "sound" and are all of those guys playing in one, sigular, certain direction ?:confused::confused:

[Joe F]

I have to say, I'm with Jim - really don't like the sound of Marshalls. We all have our own tastes. And those players are great, but I don't care for how they sound.

Thanks, I'll check out Marquee Moon!

[Jim Soloway]

I have to say, I'm with Jim - really don't like the sound of Marshalls. We all have our own tastes. And those players are great, but I don't care for how they sound.

Thanks, I'll check out Marquee Moon!

I actually like the way several of them sound. I've just never had any desire to sound like any of them myself. I've played through lots of Marshalls and I was never able to get anything remotely like a sound that pleases me.

[seiko]

Hi. I remember reading an interview with Tom Verlaine in which he referred to the Marshall sound from the seventies as "that sound" that he was trying to avoid at all costs.

Now seeing that this is a pretty revered tone among most guitarists, why do you think Verlaine felt this way?

The number one reason in the 70s would likely have have been that some Fender guitars and amps were pretty damn cheap, Television were poor and constantly getting stuff ripped off. He's pretty much stuck with the core Fender into Super Reverb studio sound his whole career, even if he's used lots of other amps live and for part-playing, so I guess he likes it.

[OldSchool]

WTF is Tom Verlaine ?

[sixty2strat]

Style, in the fashion sense.
Marshalls can be made to work for almost anything.
There is not one Marshall sound, though they have been stereotyped (monotyped?)


I don't know how many auditons I went to and brought a marshall and got , the look oh a yngiwe wannbe, no matter the cab size 1x 12 or 8x10 or if a bought a lead bass combo, the 4 hole head gets treated by a lot of folks as if they are JCM900's. Then when I got a wide range of tone out of the thing thier minds were opened. marshall dont = hair metal

[germs]

not gonna lie, i've liked the tones OTHERS have gotten from a Marshall - but i've never personally been able to get something out of one that makes me smile. so i guess i know what that guy is saying...

i also tend to gravitate to more...adventurous...gear. most of my peers are playing through Mesa Dual/Triple Rectos, and using LP/PRS style guitars. as cool as that stuff is, i'm going in a decidedly different direction.

nothing wrong with that. it's how you stand out in the crowd, right?

[A-Bone]

WTF is Tom Verlaine ?

Tom Verlaine is a seminal figure from the New York CBGB's scene of the 70s.

Google is your friend.

[jtm622]

It's obviously just an "image" thing for the guy...
'70's sound??? I've owned Marshalls since the plexi days, and if you wanted to get a '70's sound even out of a plexi, you had to CRANK IT... Otherwise, the general sound of it stayed in "Bassman" territory... You don't wan't a 1970's Marshall Sound??? Then don't CRANK that Marshall - problem solved...

[GarMan]

It's obviously just an "image" thing for the guy...


I really think it was more of an economical thing than anything. Those guys used gear that was insanely cheap, out of fashion, and plentiful in the 70s, Blackface Fender amps and Jazzmasters...

[daddyo]

It's obviously just an "image" thing for the guy...
'70's sound??? I've owned Marshalls since the plexi days, and if you wanted to get a '70's sound even out of a plexi, you had to CRANK IT... Otherwise, the general sound of it stayed in "Bassman" territory... You don't wan't a 1970's Marshall Sound??? Then don't CRANK that Marshall - problem solved...
Yes. It's cool to dis what's popular to establish (and maintain) your counterculture creds. I love Super Reverbs as much as I love Marshalls.

[mbargav]

Otherwise, the general sound of it stayed in "Bassman" territory...

:dunno Verlaine didn't play Bassmans either.

[A-Bone]

I really think it was more of an economical thing than anything. Those guys used gear that was insanely cheap, out of fashion, and plentiful in the 70s, Blackface Fender amps and Jazzmasters...

I think this is really important. So much of the gear that fueled that scene was selected for its economy -- not only because the bands were not making any money, but also because (as others have suggested) their gear was so frequently stolen or trashed.

[seiko]

I really think it was more of an economical thing than anything. Those guys used gear that was insanely cheap, out of fashion, and plentiful in the 70s, Blackface Fender amps and Jazzmasters...

Exactly. The title track of Marquee Moon apparently features Verlaine on a Danelectro Double 12, which must have been a $50 amp at that time. Marshalls and Bassmans aren't going to cut it if you want a reverby sound.

[Polynitro]

so which is it? he hated that 70s sound or he was too broke to buy it?

Either way who cares what he fancied? Greg Ginn hated tube amps..well woopty freakin do... lol

[fredgarvin]

And if you really don't care, you post twice.

[jojo]

WTF is Tom Verlaine ?

Some no name who hates marshalls.

[Chops]

Marquee Moon was a big album in my life.

[coot tone]

TV has said in interviews he was drawn to Jazzmasters for financial reasons, I'm sure the amp choices had similar motives. Besides, buying a blackface Super Reverb in the 70's was getting a hell of an amp for very little dosh. He also has said he envisioned Television's sonic sounds as "amped up surf music".

[A-Bone]

Some no name who hates marshalls.

No. Tom Verlaine is not a "no name." Just because you are unfamiliar with him does not make him a "no name".

[coot tone]

I don't remember TV ever saying he "hated Marshalls", just loved Fenders. I know later in his career he's used Danelectro amps, Ampeg SVTs, and Voxes.

[OldSchool]

Tom Verlaine is a seminal figure from the New York CBGB's scene of the 70s.

Google is your friend.

WTF is CBGB's?

[seiko]

so which is it? he hated that 70s sound or he was too broke to buy it?

Both. Clearly didn't hate all 70s rock sounds because Television ended up using Ampeg V4s live under the influence of the Stones, obviously was sick of other stuff.

[Jim Soloway]

What's with all the anger in this thread? It's just one of the multitude of discussions on this site about the gear that was used by a well known guitar player and why he may have used it.

[GarMan]

What's with all the anger in this thread? It's just one of the multitude of discussions on this site about the gear that was used by a well known guitar player and why he may have used it.

You know you can't say anything negative about brands here before people start getting their panties in a bunch. :boxer

Right Gibby players? ;)

:D

:hide2

[mbargav]

What's with all the anger in this thread? It's just one of the multitude of discussions on this site about the gear that was used by a well known guitar player and why he may have used it.

I think it's sort of unique to Marshalls. Saying "I don't play Marshalls" often means a lot more than "I'm not into the sound of Marshalls" - sure seems to get construed that way.

Notable exceptions (like J. Mascis) aside, saying that you're not into Marshalls is a very indie thing to do (I'm certainly guilty of it myself). I assume that's the root of the debate.

[Jim Soloway]

I think it's sort of unique to Marshalls. Saying "I don't play Marshalls" often means a lot more than "I'm not into the sound of Marshalls" - sure seems to get construed that way.

Notable exceptions (like J. Mascis) aside, saying that you're not into Marshalls is a very indie thing to do (I'm certainly guilty of it myself). I assume that's the root of the debate.

I would think that there should be some sort of understanding that not all music is for all people and not all gear is for all players. It's really not all that complicated.

[jtm622]

What's with all the anger in this thread? It's just one of the multitude of discussions on this site about the gear that was used by a well known guitar player and why he may have used it.

The negativity was started by that Tom Verlaine guy... He HATED Marshalls because he didn't like that '70's sound??? WTF???
What sound he liked was up to him, of course, but throwing rocks at a CLASSIC guitar tone (70's Marshall) in favor of another CLASSIC guitar tone (60's surf music) does not make me angry - it just makes me question why the guy felt compelled to dis that '70's sound when he could have EASILY simply stated that he LOVED that '60's guitar sound (without even referencing that '70's sound; which was so distasteful to him)... :)

[Jahn]

I guess it was for the same reason that Kurt Cobain rejected that "Hair Metal" JCM800 and superstrat sound and opted for that grungy business instead, with Jags and Stangs and:

Mark Snyder seems to recall Kurt using Marshall heads as a power amp, using the Boogie preamp and the Marshall's returns (58). Earnie Bailey's response to this:

"Regarding the Marshalls, Kurt really disliked Marshall amps. Partly, due to the whole hair metal stigma happening in the 80's, and he didn't like the sound of them. I think it was too generic for him. If you recall on his 4x12 cabs, he had his Marshall logos taped over, not removed (which is a simple task), as a statement towards the status associated with owning Marshall gear. Marshall 4x12's are easy to find whether you are buying or renting overseas. This is a likely reason why he used them considering how often they had to be replaced. Kurt using a Marshall head for a power amp is pretty out there, think about it, a Marshall's output stage is rather dirty and would be even more so at the volumes Nirvana played at. I brought an old plexi 100 to the Reciprocal session in 1993(?). It had 6550's in it and had the gain lowered to sound like a Dual Showman. It took a long time to get him to even try it. Kurt wound up recording with Endino's Twin again, and Krist used the plexi for bass" (59).

--

Guys like Verlaine and Cobain were not very pro-mainstream, and Marshalls were seen as mainstream at those respective times. Yes, they could have been more positive and said they just liked the cleaner stuff, but let's not fool ourselves - part of the reasoning was indeed because they were consciously attempting to move away from the mainstream scene. And thus, Marshall.

[coot tone]

Uhh, once again, the OP just stated that Verlaine had said he didn't want "that sound", not that he "hated them". I've read lots of Verlaine interviews and don't ever remember him saying he hated Marshalls or anything else, just had tonal preferences, like we all do.

I don't want "that sound" either, but it doesn't mean I hate Marshalls. It means I dont like "that sound". It doesn't work with my setup and touch. It's not for everyone, just like the Fender sound, Vox sound, Orange sound, or Hiwatt sound is not for everyone.

Man, why DID this turn into a hate fest? Tom Verlaine is one of the most laid back dudes around. Let's all crucify him because he likes Super Reverbs.

[mbargav]

I would think that there should be some sort of understanding that not all music is for all people and not all gear is for all players. It's really not all that complicated.

I agree entirely with this sentiment. Unfortunately it still happens though.

[jtm622]

...Guys like Verlaine and Cobain were not very pro-mainstream, and Marshalls were seen as mainstream at those respective times. Yes, they could have been more positive and said they just liked the cleaner stuff, but let's not fool ourselves - part of the reasoning was indeed because they were consciously attempting to move away from the mainstream scene. And thus, Marshall.


So... We agree that it was "an image thing"???

[mbargav]

The negativity was started by that Tom Verlaine guy... He HATED Marshalls because he didn't like that '70's sound??? WTF???
What sound he liked was up to him, of course, but throwing rocks at a CLASSIC guitar tone (70's Marshall) in favor of another CLASSIC guitar tone (60's surf music) does not make me angry - it just makes me question why the guy felt compelled to dis that '70's sound when he could have EASILY simply stated that he LOVED that '60's guitar sound (without even referencing that '70's sound; which was so distasteful to him)... :)

And so what if he just really didn't like the sound of an amplifier? Must all right thinking people according to you love Marshalls .... don't answer that, I probably know what you'll say :)

[reddgeetarzan]

The funny thing about this thread is that I can think of several Marshalls that get the exact sound that's on the Television records.

An early tube rectified JTM45 can get just about any tone you might want to conjur that's not exactly "Marshall" typified tones- especially if you decided to mix things up and use an EV, Jensen or JBL open back cab???

Listen to his stuff- sounds like anything a Marshall has or could reproduce in the past......

[mbargav]

An early tube rectified JTM45 can get just about any tone you might want to conjur that's not exactly "Marshall" typified tones- especially if you decided to mix things up and use an EV, Jensen or JBL open back cab???


There is absolutely no way Verlaine could've afforded an amp like this much less speaker changes.

[Jahn]

So... We agree that it was "an image thing"???

Well that quote also said it was the sound, but the sound was too "generic" for Kurt, which could also be tied to thinking that hair metal was what was generic at the time, and around the pole we go again.

[reddgeetarzan]

There is absolutely no way Verlaine could've afforded an amp like this much less speaker changes.

Back in the 70's people were GIVING that stuff away!!! :bonk

[mbargav]

So... We agree that it was "an image thing"???

It's part of it. I'm in my late 20s, and nearly every musician I know my age can conceivably save up to buy a Silverface Twin, a terrific amp at a very affordable price. This was the same even when I was in my early 20s. The coin you need to drop before you get Marshalls that do more than cheezy gain and rawk is MUCH more serious. If your only experience of Marshalls is the lower end of current production, it's very easy to conclude that the Marshall sound is not for you.

[mbargav]

Back in the 70's people were GIVING that stuff away!!! :bonk

Really? Tube rectified JTM-45s were that cheap in '77 (in comparison to the Fenders Verlaine played) when Marquee Moon came out?

[jtm622]

And so what if he just really didn't like the sound of an amplifier? Must all right thinking people according to you love Marshalls .... don't answer that, I probably know what you'll say :)

If he didn't like the '70s' Marshall sound, that's totally fine with me, as that was HIS choice... (PLUS: that means more '70's Marshalls left for the rest of us...)
BUT - I was responding to a post about "so much anger in this thread",
and NOT whether he was "right thinking" on his opinion of "the '70's Marshall sound".
Whether he (or anyone else) "liked it" is of absolutely no consequence to the overwhelming majority of folks currently living on this planet - and that's the group of folks that I fit into... :)

[reddgeetarzan]

Really? Tube rectified JTM-45s were that cheap in '77 when Marquee Moon came out?

If you were so inclined, I'm sure it could have been found for a reasonable sum.....not that he would have even made the attempt. They weren't that plentiful, I'm sure, but they also weren't that far off in price than a BF Super, at least at that point in time. So I guess he also hated them because he couldn't afford them?? ;)

[seiko]

This is a strange and amusing thread.

Someone vaguely recollects that Tom Verlaine once said he dislikes the Marshall sound in an interview once, without attribution, and a bunch of people get irked without apparently ever heard a Tom Verlaine or Television record. Listen to anything from "Marquee Moon" onwards and it's pretty obvious he found a sound he liked and basically stuck with it -- with some twists -- through the years.

BTW, it's easy to find a Verlaine quote or two where he references chosing gear because it was cheap and plentiful, which is obviously what Fender stuff would have been in NYC in 1976-7.

Like so from Guitarist magazine in 1992:

And what of his championing of the unfashionable Jazzmaster? Was it a conscious attempts to set himself apart or was the association purely accidental?

“I think it was financial!” laughs Verlaine. “In the seventies, when guitars were still cheap, nobody wanted a Jazzmaster because they weren’t loud and didn’t stay in tune. In ’73,’74 you could buy a Jazzmaster for $150 easily. So that’s why I started playing it, because we didn’t have a lot of money and they were cheap. And then I really got used to it, plus the vibrato arm on it is very nice. I use really heavy strings on it – like a 14 to a 58 or something similar – and that’s another part of the sound, I think. Live, I still use a Jazzmaster always.”

Source: http://www.thewonder.co.uk/artics.htm

To me, how he got such a great sound on record (and live) with fairly minimal gear is way more interesting than whether he did or didn't like Marshalls. I mean Pete Townsend and David Gilmour clearly had much more access to Marshall than Verlaine ever did and they chose not to use them. I doubt that means they hated Marshalls, they just found something worked better for them.

[JTM100]

So some guy in a NYC 70's punk band didnt care for the Marshall sound.....why is this an issue??? Sounds to me like it was combination of being of limited financial means and trying to get his own sound. I can certainly understand wanting to be different and do your own thing. I can also understand being on a tight budget. Even if he did say that he outright hated them, what difference does it make??....it is just his opinion , which he has a right to. It doesnt mean that every one who likes and plays Marshall's now has to sell them and get a Fender Super Reverb. Marshall's are great but they , like anything else, are not for everybody. The Beatles didnt use Marshall's either. Does that make thier music or musicianship any less valid?

[snarkle]

Curious thread...so why am I back?

Maybe to say that people who think Verlaine is some ’70s punk dude might want to actually listen to some of his post-Television solo output: although his singing is a matter of taste, there's no denying that he's one of the best guitar orchestrators in rock.

He's also just about the only person other than Al Caiola who actually knows how to use the switches on an Epiphone Al Caiola. Although he's famous for using Jazzmasters, the Epi is his secret weapon in the studio.

The other Marshall-related factor is perhaps that in Television he was playing with another very fine guitarist in the form of vintage-Strat-user Richard Lloyd. With all due respect to the early Allman Brothers (who, after all, were playing fairly big halls), two Marshalls in a small club would have been way too much. Fashion and economics undoubtedly played a part, but I think sound was likely Verlaine's first consideration.

[Jahn]

Richard Lloyd used Super Reverbs during his Television years too, but later in life he rocked out with Matthew Sweet:

Q: I love the sound you got on tour with Matthew Sweet around the time of "Altered Beast". What kind of set-up did you use (besides turning it all the way up)?


A: For Matthew Sweet live tours, I played either an old Stratocaster or Jazzmaster. If I brought my own amps, I used a Vox AC30 and a Marshall 50 watt half stack, both on at the same time (we would run into the AC30, and out the second channel to the Marshall). Matthew likes to play LOUD!!! A lot of the time I could barely hear myself for his "slab" of rhythm sound (and he sometimes would claim that all he could hear was me! -- go figure). I would run a group of floor pedals. I used an Ibenez tube screamer TS808, a Roland distortion pedal (the SD1), both on at the same time (for leads-boy is that noisy)! Or only one on for parts. Then it was run into a tube Echoplex and into the amps. Now you too can sound just like me! I also used a couple of other things for a few songs, like a Phaser for "Dinosaur Act" and a Mutron III for "The Ugly Truth." Oh, and lest I forget, throw a Dynacomp in front of everything sometimes, and use an old Vox Tone Bender, Wah Wah pedal, Small Stone, or any old piece of junk fuzz box every once in a while to keep em guessing.

[jellyroll]

It hasn't been mentioned, but size may have a part to play as well. Spent much time in NYC? NOBODY lugs big amps around there. In fact most folks take the subway to a gig. Try that with a full or half stack. Hell, try that with a twin!

[mcknigs]

Tastes change, gear goes in and out of vogue. Much of the music of the '70s used Gibsons through Marshall stacks played by guys in flashy jumpsuits and puffy shirts. Around the end of the '70s and early '80s there was a sort of revolution that gave us punk, new-wave, pub rock and skinny ties. I remember when Gibson-playing friends of mine couldn't get a Strat fast enough. Around that time I stopped playing my SG and got a Strat. I suspect Verlaine's gear choices reflect what was going on in the bigger picture around this time.

-Scott

[kludge]

I can see at least three things at play here.

First, and probably foremost, was the sound. Tom Verlaine's style is inseparable from his spiky, snappy (not twangy) tone. Marshalls tend to have too much sustain and not enough attack for that sort of thing, and a layer of fizz over the top - even old-school Marshalls do that when you crank them. Moreover, Verlaine's approach really needs some spring reverb, something that wasn't common in Marshalls back then. This is the same sort of reason I can't get on with Marshalls, either... I like it when other people play them, but they're way too soft and fizzy for me. I found my own sound with vintage Boogies, which aren't a far cry from old Fenders.

Second, there was the budget issue. Verlaine was poor and used cheap, unfashionable gear. But once his sound developed, he didn't switch to Marshalls, even when he got to the point where he could afford them.

And third, there was a matter of coolness. Verlaine's playing was a rejection of just about all fashion of the time. It was a hostile reaction to the bloat and excess of Marshall-fueled stadium rock, sure. But it was also musically rich and complex in a way that strongly contrasted the mindless simplicity of punk (another brainy-punk band, the Police, did rather well).

[OldSchool]

You know you can't say anything negative about brands here before people start getting their panties in a bunch. :boxer

Right Gibby players? ;)

:D

:hide2


WTF is a Gibby?

[Jahn]

WTF is a Gibby?

Urban Dictionary: gibby (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gibby)
gibby - 20 definitions - Slang. An incredibly awesome person. Someone who tends to be far cooler than anyone else in his surroundings.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gibby - Cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7zKYA2o7u2UJ:www.urbandictionary.co m/define.php%3Fterm%3Dgibby+gibby&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) - Similar (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=related:www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3Fterm%3Dgibby+gibby&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=_rQfTPK3F4r48Qbg6rzPCw&ved=0CB8QHzAB)

[mbargav]

WTF is Tom Verlaine ?

WTF is CBGB's?

WTF is a Gibby?

WTF is a troll? I'm thinking you know the answer to this one.

[GarMan]

Urban Dictionary: gibby (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gibby)
gibby - 20 definitions - Slang. An incredibly awesome person. Someone who tends to be far cooler than anyone else in his surroundings.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gibby - Cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7zKYA2o7u2UJ:www.urbandictionary.co m/define.php%3Fterm%3Dgibby+gibby&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) - Similar (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=related:www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3Fterm%3Dgibby+gibby&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=_rQfTPK3F4r48Qbg6rzPCw&ved=0CB8QHzAB)

Wrong definition. :rotflmao

[BobbyFudge]

WTF is a troll? I'm thinking you know the answer to this one.

Nah...OldSchool isn't a troll...he's just not very openminded. That's his shtick. He's harmless.:Devil

[SkippyD]

Andy Johns engineered the Marquee Moon record...I remember him saying something like this "Before the guys showed up I set up the studio for my basic tracking session, setting up to get those big drums and guitar sounds that I was known for. When they guys came in and heard how everything was set they made me start all over from scatch and stay away for my comfort zone."

[Dubious]

There's an old Bootleg - portable electricity - live at the waldorf in san fran on the adventure tour. I think this was eventually reissued by Rhino for a very short period of time.

anyhow if you can find it GET IT. Probably one of the greatest live boots I've ever heard of ANY BAND PERIOD. The guitars are RAGING.. and hte interplay of hte entire band is AWE inspiring.

The tones are SEARINGLY HOT.

[hasserl]

I disagree that it's "a pretty revered tone among most guitarists". Some like it, some do not. It is a fairly extreme sound and as such it is limited to a certain direction of playing. While it may be ideal for some, I consider it to be absolutely of no use at all for my own playing and pretty much the perfect example of the sound I try to avoid.

I just checked your youtube site an listened to this: http://www.youtube.com/user/solowayguitars

If you played that on a plexi set clean it would sound incredible, IMO better than what your using. A clean Marshall is one of the most beautiful tones of all.

[Jim Soloway]

I just checked your youtube site an listened to this: http://www.youtube.com/user/solowayguitars

If you played that on a plexi set clean it would sound incredible, IMO better than what your using. A clean Marshall is one of the most beautiful tones of all.

EDIT: In rethinking my priorities, I think I'll just say I'm sure you're right and move on to other things.

[jiml]

No joke, he had a Dumble OD 1x12" combo, I played through it when it was in a store in Manhattan. I didn't like it, but I was playing a strat.

[snarkle]

EDIT: In rethinking my priorities, I think I'll just say I'm sure you're right and move on to other things.

So when you get the 1/2 stack, you'll be selling me the Lil' King at a discount price, right?

[CDaughtry]

I like the "70's Marshall sound" and the tone that Jim Soloway gets on EVERY recording I've ever heard by him.
Am I to be be doubly vilified in this thread?:bonk

[jtm622]

No joke, he had a Dumble OD 1x12" combo, I played through it when it was in a store in Manhattan. I didn't like it, but I was playing a strat.

WHO had a Dumble???

[Kaji13]

WHO had a Dumble???
Tom I guess. I bet he set it on fire because he's that cool.

[germs]

WHO had a Dumble???

Tom I guess. I bet he set it on fire because he's that cool.

no, he set it on fire because it's punk as f*ck. then he poured his cheap bar-brand draft beer into the top of a Super Lead set to 10, unplugged the speaker cables from the head, and banged your mother.

[Dumo]

I guess it was for the same reason that Kurt Cobain rejected that "Hair Metal" JCM800 and superstrat sound and opted for that grungy business instead, with Jags and Stangs and:

Mark Snyder seems to recall Kurt using Marshall heads as a power amp, using the Boogie preamp and the Marshall's returns (58). Earnie Bailey's response to this:

"Regarding the Marshalls, Kurt really disliked Marshall amps. Partly, due to the whole hair metal stigma happening in the 80's, and he didn't like the sound of them. I think it was too generic for him. If you recall on his 4x12 cabs, he had his Marshall logos taped over, not removed (which is a simple task), as a statement towards the status associated with owning Marshall gear. Marshall 4x12's are easy to find whether you are buying or renting overseas. This is a likely reason why he used them considering how often they had to be replaced. Kurt using a Marshall head for a power amp is pretty out there, think about it, a Marshall's output stage is rather dirty and would be even more so at the volumes Nirvana played at. I brought an old plexi 100 to the Reciprocal session in 1993(?). It had 6550's in it and had the gain lowered to sound like a Dual Showman. It took a long time to get him to even try it. Kurt wound up recording with Endino's Twin again, and Krist used the plexi for bass" (59).

--

Guys like Verlaine and Cobain were not very pro-mainstream, and Marshalls were seen as mainstream at those respective times. Yes, they could have been more positive and said they just liked the cleaner stuff, but let's not fool ourselves - part of the reasoning was indeed because they were consciously attempting to move away from the mainstream scene. And thus, Marshall.

This pretty much sums it up nicely. I love Marshalls and Tom Verlaine. Marshalls were just part of the formula that guys like Verlaine associated with elitist arena rock of the time.

[Kaji13]

How did you know!?

[jtm622]

Tom I guess. I bet he set it on fire because he's that cool.

If it was Tom, then I guess we can sure kiss that "poor-boy too broke to buy decent equipment" schtick good-bye...

Heh-heh-heh... :)

[Kaji13]

If it was Tom, then I guess we can sure kiss that "poor-boy too broke to buy decent equipment" schtick good-bye...

Heh-heh-heh... :)
Who said he bought it ;)

[muddy]

for years, i used to get likened to verlaine, which annoyed me to NO end because we played NOTHING alike (i was never a big fan of tv). what strikes me as funny is that I used to tell everyone how much i hated marshalls in the late 70's & early 80's, & in fact tube amps in general (yes, young, dumb, & full of cum), so much so that i exclusively played ss amps. it becomes even funnier when you factor in that i played in a band with billy ficca in that same period...


ml

[Jahn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Ficca

Yep, that would do it!

[OldSchool]

Nah...OldSchool isn't a troll...he's just not very openminded. That's his shtick. He's harmless.:Devil

Thank You Bobby!! errrr..........I think.............:huh

[Roadeye]

I have always prefered a Fender sound but some guys (including some TGPers) I have seen get a killer tone from an old Marshall.

[hasserl]

EDIT: In rethinking my priorities, I think I'll just say I'm sure you're right and move on to other things.

Dude, it's just an opinion, it is subjective and there is no right or wrong. I'm not sure what priorities you had to rethink, but I hope it wasn't taken as a personal attack or challenge to argue. Sorry you felt the need to edit whatever your initial reply was.

[dmb70]

I don't have a link, but I seem to recall Keith Richard's saying he wasn't a big fan of Marshalls either, to much mid range as I recall.

I seem to recall interviews with Mick Taylor saying that he wasn't a huge fan of the Ampeg's the Stones used, but he had to because thats what Kieth wanted.

Just going from memory here, but hey different stroked for different folks right?

[BobbyFudge]

Thank You Bobby!! errrr..........I think.............:huh

Hey man...you are who are....at least you're honest about it.;)

Cheers

[NashSG]

Jazzmasters pretty much were the guitar to get if you wanted an older one you could afford, which is why J. Mascis and Sonic Youth got into them.

Esoteric guitar choices were all around early punk/new wave and it is partially why some of those models are kind of cherished now, as their instruments of choice were kind of iconic in a way. Johnny Ramone used a Mosrite (with usually Marshall amps). Billy Zoom was big into Gretsch guitars. Johnny Thunders used a Les Paul Junior. Greg Ginn used a Dan Armstrong a bunch. Elvis Costello of couse used a Jazzmaster. Steve Jones and Mick Jones both played Les Pauls with Steve Jones even using a Marshall (allegedly knicked) . D. Boon and Joe Strummer used Telecasters most of the time. Richard Lloyd of Television is known for playing Strats. Bob Mould usually played an Ibanez Flying V copy. All over the place, really, just use what you can get and make work.

[Polynitro]

what I dont get is when exactly were jazzmasters not popular? They came out in 58 and in 59 The Ventures were using them as well as a bunch of surf bands throughout the 60s, Hendrix played one a few years later, then a few years later the punk dudes showed up so that takes care of the 70s and 80s, then a few years later The Kurtz comes along and they are cool again from the 90s till now. But wait, when were they uncool? From what 1983-87?

[mcknigs]

Esoteric guitar choices were all around early punk/new wave and it is partially why some of those models are kind of cherished now, as their instruments of choice were kind of iconic in a way.

Then there's Kurt Cobain and Univox Hi-Flyer -- a $300 guitar that sells for $500 due to the Kurt connection.

Scott

[GarMan]

Then there's Kurt Cobain and Univox Hi-Flyer -- a $300 guitar that sells for $500 due to the Kurt connection.

Scott

Same with Jack White and the damn $50 plastic guitar from Sears that is going for like a grand now? As well as his $100 Sears amp that is going for 6 to 7 times that now...

[Roadeye]

Why? The same reason he hates lobster. Personal taste.

[jiml]

WHO had a Dumble???

Tom I guess. I bet he set it on fire because he's that cool.

no, he set it on fire because it's punk as f*ck. then he poured his cheap bar-brand draft beer into the top of a Super Lead set to 10, unplugged the speaker cables from the head, and banged your mother.

It was Tom's. At Chelsea Guitars, Danny was "watching" it for him. It was fizzy.

[Jahn]

It was Tom's. At Chelsea Guitars, Danny was "watching" it for him. It was fizzy.

this one?

http://www.gbase.com/stores/dans-chelsea-guitars/inventory?search=gs=y&pageindex=1&pagesize=25&sf0=5&sd0=0&sf1=12&sd1=1&sf2=7&sd2=0&keyword=dumble&grp=5

[Kaji13]

this one?

http://www.gbase.com/stores/dans-chelsea-guitars/inventory?search=gs=y&pageindex=1&pagesize=25&sf0=5&sd0=0&sf1=12&sd1=1&sf2=7&sd2=0&keyword=dumble&grp=5
No, like I said, he set the other one on fire...that's just a cosmetically accurate clone.

[jgyn]

Also, I think the stereotyped 'Marshall' sound is that of a stack, and TV's ilk (and influences) relied on the Fender guitar= straight into a- combo amp sound of yore.

[JB Eckl]

Funny thread.

Every genre and sound needs someone to come around and take the piss out of it, when it's starting to get stale. For every Whitesnake/Great White/White Lion, there must be a Cobain to straighten things out. It is the way of things.

That said, I think it's generally cool to discuss this stuff without devolving into Beavis & Butthead mode. Sigh. Forums.

[jcs]

My 71 Marshall Smallbox 50 can get seriously great sparkly tones if set right, it involves dialing out some mids and cranking the amp to 10 and adjusting the guitar volume way down,,,,,,by comparison, i own lots of Fender amps so i know what Fender cleans are.

Many Marshalls sound thin and bright unless cranked fairly high.

[dharmafool]

I don't have a link, but I seem to recall Keith Richards saying he wasn't a big fan of Marshalls either, to much mid range as I recall.




Keith wrote an intro to the large-format 60th anniversary Fender amp book by Tom Wheeler, "The Soul of Tone."

[fredgarvin]

What did he think about afro's, medallions and man-blouses? That's what i want to know.

[dead of night]

I think many are missing the point. To Tom Verlaine, the sound of a single coil Fender into a clean Fender amp was the sound of the intellectual. It was the emblem of a new age of literary rock stars, poets, clean living ascetics.

To Tom Verlaine, the rock and roll scene had become dumb. The traditional Marshall sound now symbolized all that was wrong with rock at this point. It was thick, cliched, mindless, the antithesis of Baudelaire, Sassoon, Yeats, Wilfred Owen.

[LZ_69]

what I dont get is when exactly were jazzmasters not popular? They came out in 58 and in 59 The Ventures were using them as well as a bunch of surf bands throughout the 60s, Hendrix played one a few years later, then a few years later the punk dudes showed up so that takes care of the 70s and 80s, then a few years later The Kurtz comes along and they are cool again from the 90s till now. But wait, when were they uncool? From what 1983-87?



When were they unpopular? Probably the late 70's when fender stopped making them... They have plinky hollowed out sound, limited sustain because of the break angle over the bridge; They don't really suit someone looking for the overdriven Les Paul into Marshall sounds the average guy in the 70's may have been looking for.

As for the original comments about not liking Marshall's... I wouldn't use one either if I was playing early 60's inspired surf/instrumental music like Tom was playing. Also I find the clean sound of a Marshall fairly generic and they don't have a ton of volume before they start getting gritty.

[mcknigs]

I know the reason I've chosen not to use Marshall amps is that I find them extremely anti-Yeatsian. ;)

[dead of night]

I know the reason I've chosen not to use Marshall amps is that I find them extremely anti-Yeatsian. ;)
Everybody knows Yeats would never use a Marshall.

[jtm622]

I think many are missing the point. To Tom Verlaine, the sound of a single coil Fender into a clean Fender amp was the sound of the intellectual. It was the emblem of a new age of literary rock stars, poets, clean living ascetics.

To Tom Verlaine, the rock and roll scene had become dumb. The traditional Marshall sound now symbolized all that was wrong with rock at this point. It was thick, cliched, mindless, the antithesis of Baudelaire, Sassoon, Yeats, Wilfred Owen.

...Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout...


:)

[snarkle]

The traditional Marshall sound now symbolized all that was wrong with rock at this point. It was thick, cliched, mindless, the antithesis of Baudelaire, Sassoon, Yeats, Wilfred Owen.

I'd have to take partial exception to this: in the right hands—Hendrix, Sharrock, Bjorkenheim—a Marshall stack set on "stun" can very effectively produce the kind of "derangement of the senses" that Baudelaire was looking for through his experiments with absinthe, opium, sexual excess, etc.


That said, I'll still take a Hiwatt...or a blackface Super Reverb.

[reddgeetarzan]

So some guy in a NYC 70's punk band didnt care for the Marshall sound.....why is this an issue??? Sounds to me like it was combination of being of limited financial means and trying to get his own sound. I can certainly understand wanting to be different and do your own thing. I can also understand being on a tight budget. Even if he did say that he outright hated them, what difference does it make??....it is just his opinion , which he has a right to. It doesnt mean that every one who likes and plays Marshall's now has to sell them and get a Fender Super Reverb. Marshall's are great but they , like anything else, are not for everybody. The Beatles didnt use Marshall's either. Does that make thier music or musicianship any less valid?

To me the point is......why don't ya just shut your mouth and play?? Why do you have to go completely out of your way to make a point of saying you "hate" this brand or that? Its the same thing as you are stating, just on the other end of the spectrum.

Nobody would even give a rats ass what the guy used if he didn't bring it to light to begin with.....:huh

[reddgeetarzan]

I think many are missing the point. To Tom Verlaine, the sound of a single coil Fender into a clean Fender amp was the sound of the intellectual. It was the emblem of a new age of literary rock stars, poets, clean living ascetics.

To Tom Verlaine, the rock and roll scene had become dumb. The traditional Marshall sound now symbolized all that was wrong with rock at this point. It was thick, cliched, mindless, the antithesis of Baudelaire, Sassoon, Yeats, Wilfred Owen.

That's ironic though- most of the 60's rockers that used Marshalls did the same thing to get away from the "low brow" surf tone- a Fender amp and a JAZZMASTER......go figure....

To quote a famous MARSHALL user....

"Although your world wonders me,
With your majestic and superior cackling hen
Your people I do not understand,
So to you I shall put an end
And you'll
Never hear
Surf music again"

For the record- I love 'em both- they can co-exist in peace.......can't we all just get along?!?!?!? :huh :hiP ;)

[medrawt]

To me the point is......why don't ya just shut your mouth and play?? Why do you have to go completely out of your way to make a point of saying you "hate" this brand or that? Its the same thing as you are stating, just on the other end of the spectrum.

Nobody would even give a rats ass what the guy used if he didn't bring it to light to begin with.....:huh

To me the point is that it's remarkable people can get angry at Tom Verlaine for something he might have said in an interview the original poster can't recall very clearly.

Of course, beyond that, OBVIOUSLY someone cared what the guy was using, because someone asked him about it, in whatever interview was the inspiration for this thread, and he's been asked it other times, because for some reason (I'm sure nobody in TGP feels this way, of course!) people care what gear their favorite players used, and lots of people dig Verlaine.

[JTM100]

To me the point is......why don't ya just shut your mouth and play?? Why do you have to go completely out of your way to make a point of saying you "hate" this brand or that? Its the same thing as you are stating, just on the other end of the spectrum.

Nobody would even give a rats ass what the guy used if he didn't bring it to light to begin with.....:huh


True, however, how many times have we read interviews where the artist was ASKED what he used or didnt use and why? I totally agree with the Zappa mentality of "shut up and play your guitar" but I dont think that the guy had billboards and t-shirts made up that said " I HATE MARSHALL"S" ...(although John Lydon did have one that said "I hate Pink Floyd")......my guess is that Verlaine was probably asked in an interview about what he used and why...and he just answered. Personally, I am suprised that more people arent bothered by Cobain covering up the logo's on his Marshall cabinets in order to make a statement.

[Nashville Slim]

And I believe Mike Bloomfield hated them too. I recall a Guitar Player interview from the late-70s or so where he calls them "all wrong" hahaha.

They ain't for everybody. No big deal.

[reddgeetarzan]

True, however, how many times have we read interviews where the artist was ASKED what he used or didnt use and why? I totally agree with the Zappa mentality of "shut up and play your guitar" but I dont think that the guy had billboards and t-shirts made up that said " I HATE MARSHALL"S" ...(although John Lydon did have one that said "I hate Pink Floyd")......my guess is that Verlaine was probably asked in an interview about what he used and why...and he just answered. Personally, I am suprised that more people arent bothered by Cobain covering up the logo's on his Marshall cabinets in order to make a statement.


I guess I feel he was good enough to just bypass the topic entirely. The true "punk" thing would have been to not talk about it in any regard, but I understand that maybe he was cornered or words taken completely out of context and it snowballs from there.

Personally, I don't care what the guy played thru or didn't- I dig his playing, especially on the Marquee Moon album- the gear don't make the music as much as the man does.

[reddgeetarzan]

To me the point is that it's remarkable people can get angry at Tom Verlaine for something he might have said in an interview the original poster can't recall very clearly.

Of course, beyond that, OBVIOUSLY someone cared what the guy was using, because someone asked him about it, in whatever interview was the inspiration for this thread, and he's been asked it other times, because for some reason (I'm sure nobody in TGP feels this way, of course!) people care what gear their favorite players used, and lots of people dig Verlaine.

Yup....I would agree- I hope my comments weren't taken as "angry", as I'm certainly not in any regard- I really could care less- he's made a fine contribution to the art of music....

[KRosser]

If he said he hated tapioca pudding would this be a big deal as well?

[jtm622]

If he said he hated tapioca pudding would this be a big deal as well?

If that topic was being "fleshed out" on a forum devoted to "KRAFT FOODS"...
then SH#T YES it would...


:)

[snarkle]

If he said he hated tapioca pudding would this be a big deal as well?

Tapioca pudding sucks, man.

[medrawt]

Yup....I would agree- I hope my comments weren't taken as "angry", as I'm certainly not in any regard- I really could care less- he's made a fine contribution to the art of music....

I didn't really think you sounded angry, but this is (at the moment I type) an EIGHT PAGE THREAD in which some people appear to have strongly held opinions about a possible quote nobody's actually identified as the source for this conversation. Even by TGP standards, I think the way this thread has gone is weird.

UPDATE and of course I made it a nine page thread. Jeez.

[seiko]

this one?

http://www.gbase.com/stores/dans-chelsea-guitars/inventory?search=gs=y&pageindex=1&pagesize=25&sf0=5&sd0=0&sf1=12&sd1=1&sf2=7&sd2=0&keyword=dumble&grp=5

Wow

THis thread has everything: Marshalls, tapioca, even a Dumble sighting. So if that's a 1989 Dumble and Danny at Chelsea guitars has "had it almost 20 years" can we also presume that Mr. Verlaine didn't dig that amp much either? ;)

[Polynitro]

did he hate Vox too? Surf guys like vox, just ask Hank Marvin!

[muddy]

oy, i love tapioca pudding! anyway, they had who playing on 1st?


ml

[snarkle]

Vox question answered here:

72GLZ-8zQEo

-MREaw1hb6Y