What does a voltage regulator do?

[Geek USA]

What's the uses of the expensive Furman P-1800 AR Voltage Regulator, over the cheaper and more common power conditioners?

Voltage Regulator:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Furman-P1800-AR-Voltage-Regulator-Power-Conditioner?sku=476151

Power Conditioner:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Furman-PL8C-Power-Conditioner?sku=500823

Also, what's the major differences between them more expensive power conditioners, such as the one above, compared to ones that can be purchased new around 60 or slightly higher?

[rob2001]

I'm no expert but a regulator keeps power to the rig consistant. Those cheap ones are not much better than a power strip with surge protection you find at Menards, though it might have some ground hum filtering.

[Geek USA]

I'm no expert but a regulator keeps power to the rig consistant. Those cheap ones are not much better than a power strip with surge protection you find at Menards, though it might have some ground hum filtering.
Would it be worth the enormous price to get the voltage regulator to power a small rack, amplifier, and pedal board for a touring musician, or would they be safe using a typical mid or high-priced power conditioner (not the cheap ones)?

[rob2001]

Just my opinion....a regulator is good, but not essential. Everywhere you play is bound to have power fluctuations. And some rigs, mainly tube amps, are finicky about the voltages they are getting, to the point of tonal changes. For those with the cash, it's a good thing.

The cheaper ones offer varying degrees of protection and hum filtering, but a rig could still see fluctuating voltage. Personally i'd be happy with good surge protection. I've never encountered power so bad that my amp sounded awful.


Hopefully someone with better knowledge will chime in. For what it's worth, I do use a pretty cheap power strip ...one for a computer that has good surge protection. I guess in the end it's a matter of how much you can spend.

[zachary vex]

If you can afford it, it will never hurt if you have a great AC regulator in your system. 1800 watts is a lot of power (they make a 2400 too). You could probably tour in Japan with that thing, just plug it into 100VAC and let it regulate it back up to US voltage. Pretty amazing technology. It used to have to be done with giant transformers that used magnetic tricks, but now it's all micro-controllers directing power Mosfets using sine-wave lookup tables.

[chervokas]

In a perfect world both voltage regulation and ground isolation would be a good thing. Wall voltage fluctuates, it's often very high (123-127 volts I've measured in my home), and there can be a lot of noise on the circuit especially in a club where neon, dimmers, air conditioning, refridgerators, and other stuff are all running in substantial quantities.

For a vintage amp--designed for lower voltages than today's voltages--not only is voltage regulation good but an ability to lower the voltage to a stable 117 or 110 volts (or whatever the gear is spec'ed for) with a variac or something like the Amp Perserver is also a good thing (and definitely will give you a warmer, less harsh tone than running your vintage tube amps at 120+ VAC).

But I get by with neither most of time time. I gig once a month so I don't worry about it. But if I were a touring musician making my living playing music and I could afford to haul as much gear as I needed I'd certainly travel with a voltage regulator and/or variac/amp preserver, as well as an isolation transformer, to make sure that every night I had the same consistant clean voltage.

[chervokas]

If you can afford it, it will never hurt if you have a great AC regulator in your system. 1800 watts is a lot of power (they make a 2400 too). You could probably tour in Japan with that thing, just plug it into 100VAC and let it regulate it back up to US voltage. Pretty amazing technology. It used to have to be done with giant transformers that used magnetic tricks, but now it's all micro-controllers directing power Mosfets using sine-wave lookup tables.

That's really cool. Is there any switching noise associated with that method that might be audible as HF harshness? vs. trad transformers?

[chervokas]

BTW, I just looked at the specs on that Furman voltage regultor--+/- 5 volts! So I can have 115 or 125 volts when I set it for 120! Hardly seems much better than just taking your chances with the wall voltage. For nearly a grand I'd need much better accuracy before I'd shell out for such a device.

[byrel]

That's really cool. Is there any switching noise associated with that method that might be audible as HF harshness? vs. trad transformers?

in a quality regulator, there shouldn't be - any noise would be well past the audible range

[chervokas]

in a quality regulator, there shouldn't be - any noise would be well past the audible range

No, I know it's well above the audible range, but vhf ringing from diode switching in power supplies can make HFs sound hashy and hard in critical audio circuits compared w/ tube rectification or Cree silicon carbide Schottkys. It's that kind of "noise" I'm wondering about. Not something you'd hear as hiss or anything like that. More something you'd hear as a unpleasant steely hardness in the HFs

[westom]

Would it be worth the enormous price to get the voltage regulator to power a small rack, amplifier, and pedal board for a touring musician, or would they be safe using a typical mid or high-priced power conditioner (not the cheap ones)?
At what point did anyone first read the numeric specs? The specs for that $180 Furman says it contains the same circuit found in a $7 grocery store protector. But then Furman has a history of being hyped by hearsay.

Let's say you make power into electronics stable. So what does the power supply do? Make it so unstable as to oscillate 300 volts at radio frequencies. Appreciate anything performed by the Furman is done many times over and better inside every power supply. First the supply makes power massively 'dirtier'. Then rectifies and filters that power all over again. Anything the Furman might do is completely undone in a power supply to create more stable DC voltages.

But it costs more money. Therefore it must be better? It makes claims with long words in it sales brochure - that mean nothing. They are not selling to people who learn before buying. They are marketing to people who know without learn facts - without even viewing those numeric specs. Extremely profitable to sell a $7 protector in an expensive box for $180.

Why do you need stable power? Electronics must work uninterrupted even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often are your lights dimming that much? Then why do you need voltage stabilized?. Normal voltage for electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. But if you learned that, then Furman could not reap obscene profits from you.

[chervokas]

At what point did anyone first read the numeric specs? The specs for that $180 Furman says it contains the same circuit found in a $7 grocery store protector. But then Furman has a history of being hyped by hearsay.

Let's say you make power into electronics stable. So what does the power supply do? Make it so unstable as to oscillate 300 volts at radio frequencies. Appreciate anything performed by the Furman is done many times over and better inside every power supply. First the supply makes power massively 'dirtier'. Then rectifies and filters that power all over again. Anything the Furman might do is completely undone in a power supply to create more stable DC voltages.

But it costs more money. Therefore it must be better? It makes claims with long words in it sales brochure - that mean nothing. They are not selling to people who learn before buying. They are marketing to people who know without learn facts - without even viewing those numeric specs. Extremely profitable to sell a $7 protector in an expensive box for $180.

Why do you need stable power? Electronics must work uninterrupted even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often are your lights dimming that much? Then why do you need voltage stabilized?. Normal voltage for electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. But if you learned that, then Furman could not reap obscene profits from you.

Well, with tube amps over and under voltage conditions can lead to incorrect plate voltages and variations in tone that might make voltage regulation a nice thing to have in terms of making sure you sound the same night after night, venue after venue...and, as I said, w/ vintage gear a variac or step down transformer might also be in order if the vintage amp was designed for 110 or 117 VAC...

But you're right, that Furman device seems like a rip off... I mean, a voltage regulator that has a spec of +/- 5V hardly seems like sufficiently accurate, stable regulation at any price, never mind nearly $1k.

[Geek USA]

So, the voltage regulator fluctuates too much to be worth a damn, and the power conditioners are all overpriced surge protectors?

Then what is suggested that someone use for rack and amp protection?

[westom]

So, the voltage regulator fluctuates too much to be worth a damn, and the power conditioners are all overpriced surge protectors? When incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity, that is ideal power for all electronics - semiconductor and vacuum tube. That is what the power supply does - make line voltage variations irrelevant. How often do your AC mains vary that much? They must not. Voltage variations that large may be harmful to motorized appliances such as refrigerator, air conditioner, and washing machine. Fix the problem. Do not cure symptoms.

A best solution starts with electronics that contain superior supplies. That is where much better protection is obtained for very few dollars.

Any other anomaly that might cause problems means first identifying the anomaly. Eliminating it comes much later. No magic box solves all anomalies. Magic boxes are sold to and promoted by the most naive. Different anomalies are best solved in different locations. Sometimes at the breaker box. Sometimes in how electronics are interconnected and powered. If noise so extreme as to blow through supplies, then consider a series mode filter. To eliminate noise that a supply does not, that series mode filter is larger, as expensive, and heavy. And only for solving one type of anomaly.

Long before solving an electrical anomaly, first identify the anomaly. Those literally told how to think by big brother once recommended power strip protectors or a UPS to solve everything. The new scam is to sell a surge protector as a 'line conditioner'. It sounds like it does more. Therefore it must solve all anomalies. Described in this paragraph are a majority. A majority will simply do and recommend what they are told. Never ask for what always must be provided: the reasons why and numbers. Never ask damning questions. If a recommendation does not come with the whys and tech spec numbers, then the recommendation is more often a lie.

What do you want to protect from? No magic box protects everything. Effective solutions happen after a problem is first defined. Worse are solutions that costs tens or 100 times more money to only cure symptoms. Or claim to do virutally nothing as that line conditioner spec numbers state. All electronics already contain many serious protections. What exactly do you want to protect from?

[Geek USA]

I honestly just don't understand what you're telling me. If conditioners and regulators are both bad, then what is someone supposed to do to protect valuable electronics from fluctuations, surges, and other electric mishaps? There definitely needs to be some sort of protection there.

[fusionbear]

When you gig and you see the lights dim in the hole in wall bar you are playing at and your tube amp starts sounding like poo, then you will appreciate a regulator. IMO it is worth it. I can play in comfort knowing my amp will be within range all night.

[chervokas]

So, the voltage regulator fluctuates too much to be worth a damn, and the power conditioners are all overpriced surge protectors?

Then what is suggested that someone use for rack and amp protection?

Well, I don't know if every voltage regulator is as inaccurate as that Furman. Even a cheap Tripp Lite is +/- 3V I think and under $200 instead of over $800--neither is exactly accurate, but if you're paying for inaccurate regulation might as well get it cheaply...Either that or find a more accurate regulator at a higher price.

Surge protectors, while they may limit current delivery to the detriment of the sonics, are an ok failsafe in case of a surge, even if they don't deliver the best sound. I use 'em, I've had equipment damaged by surges so I'd like to limit the chances of that happening again.

[Dr. Jimmy]

I became sold on a Furman AR-117 regulator about 20 years ago playing a club in New Haven (Toads Place), my sound that night was HORRIBLE, anemic and all buzzy. Next time there I brought my DVM and measured the outlet, lo and behold I read 83 volts and again had shit sound. Next time around I borrowed a buddies regulator, measured 117 out of it and my sound was WAY better. Next day I dropped $500 on one and it comes with me to every gig I play ........

[chervokas]

I became sold on a Furman AR-117 regulator about 20 years ago playing a club in New Haven (Toads Place), my sound that night was HORRIBLE, anemic and all buzzy. Next time there I brought my DVM and measured the outlet, lo and behold I read 83 volts and again had shit sound. Next time around I borrowed a buddies regulator, measured 117 out of it and my sound was WAY better. Next day I dropped $500 on one and it comes with me to every gig I play ........

83 volts! I'm surprised your gear worked at all!

[scottl]

I have both the P1800 and the AR1215. Both units keep the voltage in about a 5 volt range. Not +/- 5. Not sure why they advertise that. The step tranny has 5 volt intervals. In the real world, I note a +/- 2.5V range. Usually 117 to 123 or so. Mostly even tighter.

For me, well worth it. My amps sound far better when biased for this range. I have seen 113V to 126V at the wall. This is way better. I notice it.

[westom]

I honestly just don't understand what you're telling me. If conditioners and regulators are both bad, then what is someone supposed to do to protect valuable electronics from fluctuations, surges, and other electric mishaps? There definitely needs to be some sort of protection there.
Nothing says anything is bad IF it has a purpose. But those things hyped as line conditioners often do nothing - and say they do virtually nothing - for $180.

How often are you in a hardware replacing dimmer switches, clock radios and white appliances ... every day. Never? Because all appliances already contain serious protection.

Now, "Long before solving an electrical anomaly, first identify the anomaly." Where do you do that? Fluctuations do what? What fluctuations. How often every hour are your lights dimming to less than 50% intensity? Never? Then where is this fluctuation.

Meanwhile what happens to 120 volt electronics when AC lines are at any voltage from 120 to 0? It is called power off. That 'fluctuation is destructive only when myth purveyors call themselves electrical experts. In fact a 1970 design standard has this expression in the region for all voltages down to zero - in all capital letters - "No Damage Region".

So what (other than myths) do you want to protect from?

Will that magic box adjacent to your electronics stop what three miles of sky could not? That is what plug-in surge protectors claim to do. If you want surge protection (an event that occurs typically once every seven years), then the only effective solution must be where all wires enter the building. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance.

What do plug-in protectors do? Same thing its numeric specs claim. Virtually nothing. Can sometimes make electronics damage easier. A majority only know "surge protector" sound likes "surge protection"; therefore must be same. A majority are educated only by retail advertising. And easily scammed if they routinely ignore numbers. How do hundreds of joules in that power strip protector stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? A question asked by an informed minority.

But again, first define an anomaly to protect from. Anything that "line conditioner" was going to do is already inside all electronics. That existing and superior solution is also less expensive.

So how often do your lights dim to 50% intensity? What fluctuations?

[Dr. Jimmy]

83 volts! I'm surprised your gear worked at all!

Me too, but it sounded like absolute shit.......

[westom]

I read 83 volts and again had shit sound.
If a wall receptacle is only 83 volts, then you called the owner, or fire marshal. Instead you cured symptoms?

If voltage is that low, the building has a major human safety threat. Some worst case results may be, for example, the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire where hundreds died. Why are you curing symptoms? Why were you even going back there? You ignored the threat and cured symptoms?

Electronics work perfectly normal even when lights dim to 50% intensity. If that dimming is occurring, do not cure a symptom. Locate and eliminate a potential human safety threat.

[scottl]

WHile I agree regarding the line conditioners, you are really really off base regarding voltage fluctuations.

Today, my wall read 112V. It is 97 degrees out. My amp is running happily near 120V due to my regulator. It sounds WAY WAY better there. As designed. The output tubes are biased in at 32ma each. At 112V, not only are the preamp tubes running low and clipping sooner (not in the as designed load line range), the output plates are 40V lower. The measured bias was 28ma per tube. Very cold. Amp lost "it" big time.

If you even try and rebut any of this you have zero credibility to me.... I help design amps and have a degree in audio engineering. There is a big night and day difference in tube amp tone between 110V and 125V. Maybe nothing dangerous, but it is extreme in the effects on the feel and tone. And that is a fact. Do you really want to suggest that you have no problem running your amps at 112V or 125V? Or that it is insignificant to the tone or feel?


Nothing says anything is bad IF it has a purpose. But those things hyped as line conditioners often do nothing - and say they do virtually nothing - for $180.

How often are you in a hardware replacing dimmer switches, clock radios and white appliances ... every day. Never? Because all appliances already contain serious protection.

Now, "Long before solving an electrical anomaly, first identify the anomaly." Where do you do that? Fluctuations do what? What fluctuations. How often every hour are your lights dimming to less than 50% intensity? Never? Then where is this fluctuation.

Meanwhile what happens to 120 volt electronics when AC lines are at any voltage from 120 to 0? It is called power off. That 'fluctuation is destructive only when myth purveyors call themselves electrical experts. In fact a 1970 design standard has this expression in the region for all voltages down to zero - in all capital letters - "No Damage Region".

So what (other than myths) do you want to protect from?

Will that magic box adjacent to your electronics stop what three miles of sky could not? That is what plug-in surge protectors claim to do. If you want surge protection (an event that occurs typically once every seven years), then the only effective solution must be where all wires enter the building. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance.

What do plug-in protectors do? Same thing its numeric specs claim. Virtually nothing. Can sometimes make electronics damage easier. A majority only know "surge protector" sound likes "surge protection"; therefore must be same. A majority are educated only by retail advertising. And easily scammed if they routinely ignore numbers. How do hundreds of joules in that power strip protector stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? A question asked by an informed minority.

But again, first define an anomaly to protect from. Anything that "line conditioner" was going to do is already inside all electronics. That existing and superior solution is also less expensive.

So how often do your lights dim to 50% intensity? What fluctuations?

[Moat]

Seems to me like one of these might do the job for fifty bucks or so... surge protector included -

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=LE1200

:dunno

[westom]

If you even try and rebut any of this you have zero credibility to me.... I help design amps and have a degree in audio engineering. There is a big night and day difference in tube amp tone between 110V and 125V. Maybe nothing dangerous, but it is extreme in the effects on the feel and tone. If designing with tubes, then you know 160 VDC or 250 VDC required by tubes is created by a power supply. Supply creates stable DC voltages when AC mains is 95 VAC or 130 VAC. That is what a power supply does. Maintain stable DC voltages as the load changes and as AC mains voltages change.

Your 'reasons why' say you are not a designer. You did not even know what power supply does. You posted what the least electrically informed assume. Somehow changing VAC appears as changing voltages on a tube? Of course not. Power supply creates completely unchanged DC voltages when AC voltage changes appreciably. Anyone with minimal electrical knowledge would have known that.

Any answer without reasons why implies a scam. Reasons why immediately identify those who do not know this stuff. How do changing AC voltages vary DC voltages from the supply? It doesn't when a designer knows electrical basics.

He knows only because he hears a difference. Nonsense - just like DC voltages change when AC voltages vary.

Moat does same with his APC example and claims of protection. That surge protection exists in its sales brochures. Where does it exist in numeric specs? Moat - read those specs. 680 joules means it can absorb 225 joules and never more than 550 joules. How does its hundreds of joules absorb destructive surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. An example of what a majority do. Recommend something by completely ignoring the numbers.

That APC has near-zero surge protection. Which means it can tell Moat that it is 100% surge protection - in a sales brochure.

It claims AVR? APC forgets to provide numbers. When incandescent bulbs are at 50% intensity, that is normal voltage for all electronics. What the APC AVR does is already inside electronics. Explains why APC forgot to include numbers.

Two claims made without 'reasons why'. Once facts and numbers are added, it does not do what he claims. Moat, learn something that most never learn. You had no reason to believe that APC does surge protection. Read its numeric specs - the always required reasons why - before making any recommendations.

[fusionbear]

Look at the specs of the P1800 and judge for yourself...

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=P-1800PFR

[Moat]

Recommend something by completely ignoring the numbers................... It claims AVR? APC forgets to provide numbers.

Umm... you apparently missed the ":dunno" in my post?? No recommendation from me... just wondering is all.

The APC link I posted does indeed include another tabbed link "to provide numbers".

Your rant describing a tube amp's power supply as "creates stable DC voltages when AC mains is 95 VAC or 130 VAC" is nonsense.

[westom]

Look at the specs of the P1800 and judge for yourself...
Had you read those specs, then the Furman is eclectically equivalent to a $7 power strip protector sold in grocery stores. Show me spec numbers that says it does more? I only see numbers that imply a 600 joule power strip protector. Did you read numbers under the tab entitled "Specifications"? Apparently not.

How much is this power strip protector? $100? $180? And still you recommended it? Why did you not cite relevant numbers? You ether never read the specs. Or you routinely make recommendations without first learning simplest electrical concepts. Either way, ineffective and high profit scams get promoted.

[westom]

The APC link I posted does indeed include another tabbed link "to provide numbers".

Your rant describing a tube amp's power supply as "creates stable DC voltages when AC mains is 95 VAC or 130 VAC" is nonsense.
Moat, if you knew something, then you quoted each relevent number rather than post subjective insults. You quoted no numbers because you do not know which numbers are relevant. You are setting yourself up to be a trophy example of every scammed consumer.

Design standards even for appliances before 1970 had to meet and exceed those 95 and 130 volt numbers. If you knew that was not true, an honest Moat posted what those limit numbes are. You are in denial rather than in "posting useful facts' mode. What scammed consumers routinely do.

Standard test for my every design was to operate at even greater extremes - because that was required for any minimally acceptable electronics. What were extremes that your designs had to meet? Again, a question you can only answer with numbers. Or do you have no design experience?

While doing standard testing, a peer discovered a TV that well exceeded standard design requirements. "Motheboard Problem? posted on 7 Sept 2001 by Tom MacIntyre
> We operate everything on an isolated variac, which means that I can control the voltage
> going into the unit I am working on from about 150 volts down to zero. This enables us to
> verify power regulation for over and under-voltage situations. ...
> Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever seen), on the
> other hand, are different. Although it's hard on the primary section due to the current and
> duty cycle of the switching, they can and will regulate with very low voltages on the AC
> line in; the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac down to
> 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture on that set.

Why did he discover the TV worked even at 37 VAC? Because he was confirming that it worked normally at above 85 VAC and below 150 VAC. Numbers you would know if you had read those APC specs before recommending it. You didn't.

You still post no numbers with every denial. You cannot post what you do not understand. Only resposible and informed posters identify and post specific numbers. Ie 90 to 130 VAC. You do not know which numbers are relevant. And you don't want to be nakedly exposed as uninformed. So you do classic Rush Limbaugh style denials.

If you have knowledge, your every post specifically writes out the relevant numbers from each spec. You cannot. No such numbers exist in your APC recommenation. You are an example of a majority who know only what big brother ordered them to believe - without any numbers. What were the tolerance numbers that your every design had to meet? An answer that requires you to post numbers - or do more denials.

[Moat]

Have fun with your TV's, westom! :wave

[Jon C]

I have both the P1800 and the AR1215. Both units keep the voltage in about a 5 volt range. Not +/- 5. Not sure why they advertise that. The step tranny has 5 volt intervals. In the real world, I note a +/- 2.5V range. Usually 117 to 123 or so. Mostly even tighter.

For me, well worth it. My amps sound far better when biased for this range. I have seen 113V to 126V at the wall. This is way better. I notice it.

yep ... my 1215 is a huge step in having consistent tone from night to night in diff. places IMO...

[scottl]

You are smoking crack Westom. ;)

The power supply DC output changes in proportion with the AC mains. The amps B+ rail fluctuates in real time with the AC main.

What amp creates a stable DC voltage as the AC mains change? Not many use regulated DC. And the ones that do, I do not care for.... And the ones that do, usually only regulate the preamp, not the output stage.

Now back to the question, were you aware the amp B+ changes with the AC mains?

I find it funny that you are here trying to shoot down my comment and knowledge of amp circuits when I have quoted your obvious ignorance when discussing lowely guitar amps.... We are not talking regulated circuits. Capiche?

Btw, I was recommending regulators and not conditioners..... Keep the rebuttle on point please.


If designing with tubes, then you know 160 VDC or 250 VDC required by tubes is created by a power supply. Supply creates stable DC voltages when AC mains is 95 VAC or 130 VAC. That is what a power supply does. Maintain stable DC voltages as the load changes and as AC mains voltages change.

Your 'reasons why' say you are not a designer. You did not even know what power supply does. You posted what the least electrically informed assume. Somehow changing VAC appears as changing voltages on a tube? Of course not. Power supply creates completely unchanged DC voltages when AC voltage changes appreciably. Anyone with minimal electrical knowledge would have known that.

Any answer without reasons why implies a scam. Reasons why immediately identify those who do not know this stuff. How do changing AC voltages vary DC voltages from the supply? It doesn't when a designer knows electrical basics.

He knows only because he hears a difference. Nonsense - just like DC voltages change when AC voltages vary.

Moat does same with his APC example and claims of protection. That surge protection exists in its sales brochures. Where does it exist in numeric specs? Moat - read those specs. 680 joules means it can absorb 225 joules and never more than 550 joules. How does its hundreds of joules absorb destructive surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. An example of what a majority do. Recommend something by completely ignoring the numbers.

That APC has near-zero surge protection. Which means it can tell Moat that it is 100% surge protection - in a sales brochure.

It claims AVR? APC forgets to provide numbers. When incandescent bulbs are at 50% intensity, that is normal voltage for all electronics. What the APC AVR does is already inside electronics. Explains why APC forgot to include numbers.

Two claims made without 'reasons why'. Once facts and numbers are added, it does not do what he claims. Moat, learn something that most never learn. You had no reason to believe that APC does surge protection. Read its numeric specs - the always required reasons why - before making any recommendations.

[Geek USA]

I really know absolutely nothing about electronics or amp design, I'm just looking for someone to translate all this in common tongue, so I would know whether or not it's worth the money to put into a voltage regulator, or if a good power conditioner would do. Just assume that money isn't a problem if it's going to be quality.

It could be some kind of language barrier, or maybe I'm dumb as a brick, but I can barely understand what Westom has been saying. It sounds like he's saying all surge protectors, power conditioners, and voltage regulators are lies and that plugging directly into the wall is the only option... which even someone like me, with no professional electronics knowledge knows is silly. There are minor surges and power fluctuations all the time, and similar products have provided household protection for years. Why should it be any different in a rack for a guitar rig?

I'm more confused than when I started this thread.

Voltage Regulator... good or bad?

[chervokas]

I really know absolutely nothing about electronics or amp design, I'm just looking for someone to translate all this in common tongue, so I would know whether or not it's worth the money to put into a voltage regulator, or if a good power conditioner would do. Just assume that money isn't a problem if it's going to be quality.

It could be some kind of language barrier, or maybe I'm dumb as a brick, but I can barely understand what Westom has been saying. It sounds like he's saying all surge protectors, power conditioners, and voltage regulators are lies and that plugging directly into the wall is the only option... which even someone like me, with no professional electronics knowledge knows is silly. There are minor surges and power fluctuations all the time, and similar products have provided household protection for years. Why should it be any different in a rack for a guitar rig?

I'm more confused than when I started this thread.

Voltage Regulator... good or bad?

Well, to go back to my original thought on this. Voltage regulation is good, especially with tube amps where, yes, the B+ voltage fluctuates with wall voltage effecting plate voltages (most tube amp power supplies, especially vintage ones or vintage style ones, are lightly regulated if they're regulated at all). It may or may not be essential depending upon the conditions under which you play: if you're only playing at home or in situations where you have decent stable wall voltage it may not be essential. If you're gigging a lot in a variety of environments of questionable electrical quality it can be extremely useful. But it seems like there's a wide range of relatively low-end voltage regulators out there and the ones marketed to musicians (and computer users) don't seem to be particularly accurate, but would be useful in extreme circumstances nevertheless. I for one would be careful about overpaying for an expensive regulator that doesn't regulate any better than a cheaper regulator. I also continue to wonder about the sonic attributes of a mosfet based regulator vs. a transformer based one.

[westom]

I really know absolutely nothing about electronics or amp design, I'm just looking for someone to translate all this in common tongue, so I would know whether or not it's worth the money to put into a voltage regulator, or if a good power conditioner would do. Just assume that money isn't a problem if it's going to be quality.
As repeated often, an honest poster also provides reasons why and numbers. Any reply that does not do that is probably a lie. We were all supposed to learn that, even from history and Saddam's WMDs. Two others do not know anything - never provide numbers in their posts. They reply only with insults - without any supporting facts and numbers. That is a first reason to ignore them. They post no facts and numbers - only mockery and insults.

What does a power supply do? Another responsible source contradicts scottl. From Wikipedia:
Conversion of one form of electrical power to another desired form and voltage, typically involving converting AC line voltage to a well-regulated lower-voltage DC for electronic devices. ... A regulated power supply or stabilized power supply is one that includes circuitry to tightly control the output voltage and/or current to a specific value. The specific value is closely maintained despite variations in the load presented to the power supply's output, or any reasonable voltage variation at the power supply's input.

Well regulated DC voltage means the power supply does AVR. This even existed in 1950 television sets. And yes, I even worked with them. Why must electronics work even when light bulbs are at 50% intensity? Because all electronics already contain that AVR function.

These concepts are completely new. Something new must always be reread as least three times. For example, two completely different devices are called protectors. Those that actually do effective protection and costs about $1 per protected appliance. Verses plug-in protectors that are nothing but profit centers. Do not even claim in their numeric specs to be effective. That cost $25 or $150 per appliance. But again, sources and numbers are cited. Read those specs yourself. Ineffective protectors do not list protection from each type of surge in numeric specs. Did anyone ask you to confirm by reading the source? Most without any electrical knowledge with recommend profit center protectors anyway; due to hearsay and popular myths. An effective solution costs only $1 per protected appliance. Do you need it?

All appliances contain serious protection. Or do you truck to hardware stores every day to replace dimmer switches, bathroom GFCIs, clock radios, and dishwashers? Of course not. Daily anomalies cause no damage. All appliances contain protection that makes all but the most destructive surges and fluctuations completely irrelevant. Your concern is a rare and destructive anomaly that occurs typically once every seven years.

No language barrier. This is completely new to you. Anything new must be reread multiple times before it makes any sense. In those rereads, the same question was asked and still not answered. What do you want to protect from? The electrically informed cannot recommend anything until you define that.

What was discussed above? 1) Wikipedia quoted contradicting another's hearsay about harmful fluctuations - a popular urban myth. 2) Two different types of protectors were discussed - an effective and the profit center types. 3) And finally the same still unanswered question. What do you want to protect from? Nobody can honestly answer until you define what you want to accomplish.

You don't need an AVR - the so called voltage regulator. You must first define what you want to solve. But fluctuations and other daily anomalies are already made completely irrelevant by what is already inside every appliance.

[scottl]

There you go again. I did provide numbers. I have several nice multimeters. I provided B+ changes based on wall voltage. Did you?

You clearly have no experience inside guitar amps.

Let me see if you can read this.

The amps B+ changes in proportion to AC fluctuations at the wall.

What would you like to wager? I have three amps open on my bench. I have been building and designing for about 7 years now. Everyday in my spare time. You on the other hand have zero clue and no idea.

The below is referring to "well regulated power supplies". Here is a tidbit for you, GUITAR AMPS DO NOT USE WELL REGULATED POWER SUPPLIES. THEY USE UNREGULATED POWER SUPPLIES. With the obvious caveat regarding several manufacturers who regulate the preamp B+.

Please do a little more research before you come on here arguing with experts.....

If I seem a bit obnoxious in my replies, it is because you are really stubborn and really wrong. Apologies in advance for my tone.

Lastly, I am not concerned about harmful drift or line noise. My concern is keeping my output plates around 450V DC and my preamps tubes around 200V DC. My bias at the spot I like, around 32ma per tube. (preceding values referencing the amp I am working on now) When the AC goes to 125 or 115, these values move in a direct response and the amp tone does change considerably. Please note, I am only referring to tube amps with unregulated power supplies. Which happens to be 99% of them.

Two others do not know anything - never provide numbers in their posts. They reply only with insults - without any supporting facts and numbers. That is a first reason to ignore them. They post no facts and numbers - only mockery and insults.

What does a power supply do? Another responsible source contradicts scottl. From Wikipedia:


Well regulated DC voltage means the power supply does AVR. This even existed in 1950 television sets. And yes, I even worked with them. Why must electronics work even when light bulbs are at 50% intensity? Because all electronics already contain that AVR function.

These concepts are completely new. Something new must always be reread as least three times. For example, two completely different devices are called protectors. Those that actually do effective protection and costs about $1 per protected appliance. Verses plug-in protectors that are nothing but profit centers. Do not even claim in their numeric specs to be effective. That cost $25 or $150 per appliance. But again, sources and numbers are cited. Read those specs yourself. Ineffective protectors do not list protection from each type of surge in numeric specs. Did anyone ask you to confirm by reading the source? Most without any electrical knowledge with recommend profit center protectors anyway; due to hearsay and popular myths. An effective solution costs only $1 per protected appliance. Do you need it?

All appliances contain serious protection. Or do you truck to hardware stores every day to replace dimmer switches, bathroom GFCIs, clock radios, and dishwashers? Of course not. Daily anomalies cause no damage. All appliances contain protection that makes all but the most destructive surges and fluctuations completely irrelevant. Your concern is a rare and destructive anomaly that occurs typically once every seven years.

No language barrier. This is completely new to you. Anything new must be reread multiple times before it makes any sense. In those rereads, the same question was asked and still not answered. What do you want to protect from? The electrically informed cannot recommend anything until you define that.

What was discussed above? 1) Wikipedia quoted contradicting another's hearsay about harmful fluctuations - a popular urban myth. 2) Two different types of protectors were discussed - an effective and the profit center types. 3) And finally the same still unanswered question. What do you want to protect from? Nobody can honestly answer until you define what you want to accomplish.

You don't need an AVR - the so called voltage regulator. You must first define what you want to solve. But fluctuations and other daily anomalies are already made completely irrelevant by what is already inside every appliance.

[chervokas]

Lastly, I am not concerned about harmful drift or line noise. My concern is keeping my output plates around 450V DC and my preamps tubes around 200V DC. My bias at the spot I like, around 32ma per tube. (preceding values referencing the amp I am working on now) When the AC goes to 125 or 115, these values move in a direct response and the amp tone does change considerably. Please note, I am only referring to tube amps with unregulated power supplies. Which happens to be 99% of them.

Exactly...consistent tone by virtue of maintaining plate voltages and bias is more the concern than equipment damage, though I suppose with extreme fluctuations and surges damage is a concern. I'm not sure there's as much of in the way of tonal concern with contemporary solid state equipment with regulated power supplies. Line noise, of course, is a concern either way but I'm not sure that this regulators are going to be much help in that regard and some of 'em my be noise producers of their own sort.

[HurricaneJesus]

OK did I miss where you told us what the $1 per appliance effective solution actually is?

[scottl]

Westom,

Have you researched the issue more in depth yet?? Please let us know when you have.

Sound familiar? This is indeed the power supply used in hundreds of thousands of Fenders, Marshalls, Peaveys, etc etc

Unregulated power supply

An AC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current) powered unregulated power supply usually uses a transformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer) to convert the voltage from the wall outlet (mains) to a different, usually a lower voltage. If it is used to produce DC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current), a rectifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier) is used. A capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor) is used to smooth the pulsating current from the rectifier. Some small periodic deviations from smooth direct current will remain, which is known as ripple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(electrical)). These pulsations occur at a frequency related to the AC power frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency) (for example, a multiple of 50 or 60 Hz).

Thanks!!

[Moat]

I'm not sure there's as much of in the way of tonal concern with contemporary solid state equipment with regulated power supplies.

Not quite contemporary, but I had a Peavey ProFex digital processor back in the day... it would regularly freeze up and show Chinese-ish characters on it's display when the band got loud. An external regulator may have been useful, in that scenario.

I recall a few other digital effects boxes I've had to be similarly sensitive to wall voltage fluctuations.

[scottl]

Bump for Westom.....

Just admit your error and eat some crow.... ;)

(Just some friendly ribbing)

[Geek USA]

I've officially got voltage regulator GAS. Thanks, Scottl, and everybody else.

Now, what cheaper alternatives to the one I've posted are there? I would like to keep it rackable, with around 8 outputs.

[silverrocket2006]

I can say with GREAT certainty, that SLIGHT variations in wall voltages results in large differences in plate voltages, therefore differences in tone. If there is a way to keep the voltages relatively consistent coming into the amp, then you're doing yourself a favor, and will get a more consistent tone. This is undeniable, and anyone saying otherwise hasn't played a tube amp for any length of time, and suffered through different tone day in and day out...I have, and bought a used Furman, and now, no longer do I have an amp with different sensitivities, tone, and break up. Always consistent. This is fact.

[Tweeker]

I really know absolutely nothing about electronics or amp design, I'm just looking for someone to translate all this in common tongue, so I would know whether or not it's worth the money to put into a voltage regulator, or if a good power conditioner would do. Just assume that money isn't a problem if it's going to be quality.

It could be some kind of language barrier, or maybe I'm dumb as a brick, but I can barely understand what Westom has been saying. It sounds like he's saying all surge protectors, power conditioners, and voltage regulators are lies and that plugging directly into the wall is the only option... which even someone like me, with no professional electronics knowledge knows is silly. There are minor surges and power fluctuations all the time, and similar products have provided household protection for years. Why should it be any different in a rack for a guitar rig?

I'm more confused than when I started this thread.

Voltage Regulator... good or bad?
I also know nothing about electronics or amp design, but can tell you about my voltage regulator use in the past 20+ years of gigging. I purchased a basic 10 amp, 4 outlet TrippLite line stabilizer regulator to use with my one-man-band MIDI act in the late 80's. Dozens of times, when playing with less than perfect power, it saved my ass. I presume this was just because the sensitive digital boxes need constant voltage, and this little unit was able keep the equipment from going bonkers.
Just yesterday I performed solo using a generator. My wireless unit and AdrenalinnIII were making terrible noises. Luckily I brought the old regulator, put it in line and placed the rest of the gig noise free.
I believe that this is the current version of what I've used since 1988: http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=838&txtModelID=208

[tnt365]

Stay away from Musical Instrument stores for voltage regulation is my advice. Units that actually regulate voltage and provide a battery back-up often cost over $1,000 on those sites. I use this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111012. If you shop around you can find them for cheaper. Voltage regulation and UPS battery back-up for under $125. I feel bad for people who buy those $1,000 power strips from online music stores, it should be illegal and prosecuted as false advertising.

[J D Miley]

I run a Tripp Lite out of the wall. Which gives me a solid 120 volts with in a range of 94 to 143. then I still have a Furman in my rack that has isolated outlets. I'm getting pretty clean power with very little line noise with this set up. I never leave the house with out the Tripp Lite conditioner. This thing works very well and is 1/2 the price of a Furman.

[tapehead]

Regulates voltage.:bonk