Is Learning Economy Picking Bad For Me At This Point

[ubermetaldood]

I've been playing and think I've reached a physical limit to how fast I can pick. I've been playing for almost 3 years, practicing strict picking, and can't beat 16th notes at 130 bpm. I cannot do it perfectly any faster than that at this point.

I try bumping up the metronome a couple of clicks, and sometimes it seems like I made progress only to regress to about 124 bpm until I even my picking out again. I have to work to get back to 130 bpm again. Whenever I try playing past that speed my picking slowly falls apart and it's no longer perfect. I start missing a note here and there and next thing you know I've developed some jerkieness in my pick attack and I have to retrain to even out my picking stroke.

Yes I have tried many different picking/right hand styles. I don't use an index/thumb movement like Yngwie or a forearm movement like Kirk Hammet, just a regular style wrist motion with a little bit of knuckle movement in my thumb. I keep the pick at a slight incline so my pick attack is normal.

So to make a long story short I have been considering adopting economy picking or even incorporating hammer-on/pull-offs/legato to get away with fast runs.

I'm not getting any younger and I figure at this pace it will take 20 years to play what I want, that is if it's physically possible. I'm not gifted like those skinny players with long, limber little fingers. I have kind of big hands.

They say that economy picking limits your playing in that you end up having to plan every execution with the right picking sequence. I think basically I'm looking for a way to cheat in order to take my playing to a higher level.

Is this really a bad thing or does everybody do it?

[jbraun002]

"They" might say that about economy picking, but they'd be wrong.

Any picking technique is going to have strengths and weaknesses for various phrases (even, gasp, strict alternate picking!). And when I need to alternate pick part of a particular line (say I'm moving in one direction but only hitting two notes on a string), then I just do it. It's not a big deal. I don't think, "Ah, I better plan this line because it has a hiccup in it."

If you practice economy picking enough, and practice improvising with your scales using it, it'll become automatic. I myself liked Gambale's book on the subject - I thought that was the most helpful. But Jimmy Bruno's book might be worth looking into, especially as he doesn't shy away from mixing regular alt. picking across strings with the economy approach.

[acka_jacka]

If you want to learn economy picking go for it, it won't do harm and will actually open your playing up to licks you'd struggle with otherwise, the same as any technique. But don't learn it as a way of getting around alternate picking, because they're completely different sounds. Economy picking has less bite, especially when crossing strings, and won't substitute alternate picking in a rock or metal song.

Your alternate picking will improve so long as you keep playing and challenging yourself. Metronome exercises can help but in my opinion you shouldn't place too much attention on them or get stressed out by them. Speed will come with time.

[greggorypeccary]

:eek:
Wow, I've been playing for over 25 years and I can't pick anywhere near that fast!!

[Flyin' Brian]

It seems that the best thing to do is to pick in a way that comfortable and that you don't have to consciously think about.

I never jacked a metronome up just to see if I could play ___notes at ___speed, because it never assured me that I could make musical statements at that speed.

I did realize that I do use a combination of economy picking and other types of picking, that it just seems to happen and that's good enough for me. Thinking about it reminds of of the joke; once a centipede found that he had 100 legs, he couldn't walk.

[KRosser]

It's best not to learn anything new....really, it can only end in tears.

[tone4days]

to me, the thing about economy picking, especially the gambale way, is not the physical aspect of learning it, but rather the fretboard knowledge that is required to rearrange the phrases you want to play to fit into the picking paradigm ...

i'd recommend you just take a nibble at economy picking to see if you can get some useful musical ideas coming out ... then you can decide if you want to take the plunge

i agree that picking should not be like bench pressing where you just try to build up to so many 16th notes at increasing BPMs .... its gotta be about the music you can make

good luck
t4d

[Neer]

At the risk of sounding like a wise ass, why not just make the notes you can play count for more? Note choices are even more important than how many you play, even in metal. You have an opportunity to create your own voice--there are already tons of shredders. You have to ask yourself, "where did it get them and is that really where I want to be?"

That said, absolutely try to incorporate economy picking into your playing. Mixing it up between the two styles is a good way to add some interesting sounds and variety into your playing.

[Luke]

At the end of the day, what is the objective?

16th note triplets at 184bpm?

If so, why?

At a certain point, it begins to sound like a weed wacker more than music.

Listen to how slow this beat is to make the playing sound fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ghUa97sMU

To me that is music and quite possibly the best shredding I've ever heard.

Here is the atypical neoclassical shred:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7BHEid902Q&feature=related

[rich2k4]

if he wants to build up his picking speed let him. i don't blame him. I'm currently doing it too. i find if i build up my alternate picking using the metronome, it makes it easier to play stuff.

meaning if i build up to 150 bpm 16th notes. then picking at 120 bpm 16th notes would be easy for me, and it would make it easier to make lines at that tempo.

[marcher5877]

If you have only been playing for 3 years, then you are nowhere near how fast you can play. Talk to me in another 7 years.

[Guts]

Improving any aspect of your playing can only limit you as much you allow it to.
Speed-picking is a tool, not a style. Use it to your advantage but don't trap yourself in it.

Besides, you said that you've been playing for 3 years (quoting your first post). Well, you better give yourself more time than that, Django.

[buddastrat]

I always felt it's important to learn good alternate picking and strumming for learning how things feel in rhythm, first before doing the other styles like economy/sweep.
Learning any new techniques is definitely a good thing.

I'd recommend to get the number thing out of your head. It's like trying to lose weight, don't focus on the scale and your lbs. I could make up some incredibly difficult exercises that would be very hard for most anyone to play 16ths at 130 bpm on the guitar.

Most of the players, are playing things they programmed their fingers to do, through repition, and one thing often neglected is the fingering arrangement to suit the picking style no matter if it's alternate or economy. I have a couple examples from the very players you brought up.

It was a revelation for me when I found out that Yngwie "cheats" a lot, I used to try and play his stuff from books when I was young, with alternate picking and really struggled and even developed some injuries. This was before I saw how he did it. First the fingering was usually totally wrong from those books. Then I was so mad I had made it so difficult and literally wasted so many hours/months working at something the wrong way. He was using a mix of techniques and arranging and playing things in the easiest way possible. A big duh for me! And the big part was, he wasn't even picking everything, only giving the illusion of it. I got the speed, almost over night once I found out the right way to execute that.

As for Kirk Hammet, I came across a few Metallica solos, in "authorized transcription" books and for ex. the solo for Master of Puppets, that a student brought in and had been struggling with the solo for some time, I showed him the correct way and he had it, in that very lesson. The fingering arrangement is so critical, not just for the fret hand but the picking hand as well. I've seen many, many times those transcriptions are not correct and leads to much frustrations.

So my point is to try and realize what sound or what you want to accomplish, set goals which are achieveable and work towards them. Lessons can definitely help from someone who play/teaches in the style that can help you acheive what you want, by showing proper technique and proper fingering for those styles.

[rich2k4]

care to explain how yngwie does it? i find that interesting

[Calvin]

Improving any aspect of your playing can only limit you as much you allow it to.
Speed-picking is a tool, not a style. Use it to your advantage but don't trap yourself in it.


+1

I've been playing for a bunch of years, and can't alternate pick as fast as the OP. However, I learned to play using legato techniques and some economy picking along with alternate picking early on in my musical life, so I have a variety of tools in the toolbox. With that variety of tools, I can use whatever happens to spring from my heart to my hands at any given instant.

Economy picking and legato techniques are not "cheating". They are different techniques that allow for different sounds.

But (speaking to the OP now), if you're sure that you're only ever going to play in a very specific style whose practitioners won't tolerate legato or economy-picked phrases, I guess you're stuck with continuing to work on the alternate picking. I doubt you've maxed out after only 3 years, but there's probably not a whole heck of lot of upside remaining - perhaps up to 20% or so, I'd guess.

[ubermetaldood]

You all posted some great and helpful comments, thank you. Let me put it this way. I think playing just because you can play fast is about as useful as bodybuilding. All those big muscle guys look brutal but 99.9% of them can't even take a punch. About the only thing they do for anyone is keep the swimming trunk companies in business.

I don't care about shred. I care about music, but I find it very frustrating when I want to play something and can't achieve the speed and articulation that makes the music I like so interesting.

My main concern is having the ability to express the music in my head without getting stumped practicing it. I don't have an obsession with speed by any means but even the finest music in all it's simplicity eventually becomes dull because you already know all the notes they're playing.

I like having a certain amount of complexity and layers of musical ideas so that I get something new out if it every time I listen to it. An exception to the rule is probably David Gilmour, but most of the time I do enjoy faster players because they tend to layer musical shapes in different interesting ways, not to mention I also like the aggressive and powerful sound of fast paced music.

Your comments were very helpful and I've made my decision to stop trying so hard and just do what comes naturally. If it involves some economy picking or cheating with a hammer-on/pull-off here and there then so be it. The faster I can play Michael Schenker and Marty Friedman the happier I'll be.

[buddastrat]

care to explain how yngwie does it? i find that interesting


There's a lot to it. It's all about minimal movement and maintaining a specific picking approach. For ex. he'll use economy ascending That's pretty straight forward, but descending he'll appear to use alternate but only when it allows for downstrokes on string changes, so he sets those runs up, so to speak. There are exceptions but that's the biggie right there. Often times, there will be four notes on one string, instead of how the typical shredder does it with 3 notes/string. He does that to avoid an awkward inside pick. When he's doing three notes on a string, since it's not even group on each string, he'll stick one odd ball pull off in there at specific points during descending so he can maintain his speed and avoid a big hand movement, in the midst of it at speed it will sound like everything was picked if done correctly, sort've sleight of hand.

The thing I really like that he does is, the typical shredder will play "descending fours" and continue that sequence throughout. It's predictable and gets boring fast. Yngwie does it and it's fours for a bit then it's a five note sequence or a seven. Very difficult for strict alternate picker, and requires a lot of working out before hand and practice because of those weird grouping thrown in there randomly. What I noticed is those odd groups always happened at a string changing point for Yngwie. That was a clue to me way back, that something was different. Plus I noticed his hand barely needed to move when he picked. Plus makes it less predictable sounding by sticking some 5's or 7's in there. Eric Johnson does a similar thing. Fast Gypsy picking has some similarities in some of his approach too.

There's a bunch of licks where he does certain things to simplify things the text book shredder would do. He's got his 20 or so pet licks that he uses in most solos. I'd love to write a book showing those and demonstrating the pick moves. But I don't know how that works with copyrights because I'd want to use examples of his songs and show how the exact licks keep reappearing album after album. I love his playing and it's genius in it's simplicity, and makes those runs a ton easier. Stuff like this you don't get from the books I seen, and then someone (like me) struggles for a long time not getting anywhere, 'till you see the real deal.

[rich2k4]

There's a lot to it. It's all about minimal movement and maintaining a specific picking approach. For ex. he'll use economy ascending That's pretty straight forward, but descending he'll appear to use alternate but only when it allows for downstrokes on string changes, so he sets those runs up, so to speak. There are exceptions but that's the biggie right there. Often times, there will be four notes on one string, instead of how the typical shredder does it with 3 notes/string. He does that to avoid an awkward inside pick. When he's doing three notes on a string, since it's not even group on each string, he'll stick one odd ball pull off in there at specific points during descending so he can maintain his speed and avoid a big hand movement, in the midst of it at speed it will sound like everything was picked if done correctly, sort've sleight of hand.

The thing I really like that he does is, the typical shredder will play "descending fours" and continue that sequence throughout. It's predictable and gets boring fast. Yngwie does it and it's fours for a bit then it's a five note sequence or a seven. Very difficult for strict alternate picker, and requires a lot of working out before hand and practice because of those weird grouping thrown in there randomly. What I noticed is those odd groups always happened at a string changing point for Yngwie. That was a clue to me way back, that something was different. Plus I noticed his hand barely needed to move when he picked. Plus makes it less predictable sounding by sticking some 5's or 7's in there. Eric Johnson does a similar thing. Fast Gypsy picking has some similarities in some of his approach too.

There's a bunch of licks where he does certain things to simplify things the text book shredder would do. He's got his 20 or so pet licks that he uses in most solos. I'd love to write a book showing those and demonstrating the pick moves. But I don't know how that works with copyrights because I'd want to use examples of his songs and show how the exact licks keep reappearing album after album. I love his playing and it's genius in it's simplicity, and makes those runs a ton easier. Stuff like this you don't get from the books I seen, and then someone (like me) struggles for a long time not getting anywhere, 'till you see the real deal.

it would be cool if you could make a youtube series demonstrating all of this. You could use small 20 second samples of his music in the videos i guess. I'd love to see it

[Echoes]

just dont play like this....please...for the sake of all humanity... :jo

hb5QaCfm7bg

[jmcerlain]

I economy pick much of the time because I found it made a lot of sense to me as a player. The main impetus was the first Eric Johnson video, watching him play I realized he was economy picking many of the fast pentatonic stuff. I like many of us bought the Gambale book but as Tone4Days (hey man!) said, his approach requires relearning many fingerings and often adding in chromatic notes to allow for the technique. No thanks! That works great for him and he is a monster! So basically I just incorporated the technique about 75% of the time. I found it really helped my playing a great deal, not just to play faster but smoother. I also like the sound of it!

It takes time to get it together but I love it. It can be difficult because a benefit of alternate picking is that it helps keep time for you. 1e&a = DUDU where in economy it could be a number of ways depending on the number of notes per string. Here is a good look up close.

T8P8WwzDeCI

[guitarjazz]

It’s good to have a thorough understanding of various techniques for the sake of being able to find the best way to phrase something musically. If you like to display your talent at Guitar Center you will impress me far more by playing something really slowly, in time, and with good feel. This is far more rare a commodity than fast playing. In fact, don’t think I’ve ever heard someone do this at a store.

[chronowarp]

I don't think it's helpful to try and act like you do one or the other. I'm still young, but I got technique down pretty well.

The thing I noticed when I started studying Jazz and transcribing solos is that pure alt. picking just falls apart when you're doing fast bop lines 1-2 notes on each string. Now, that isn't to say that I switched to economy picking. Rather, I started taking those licks and playing them in the only way I could, and after that it started to happen naturally in playing. No premeditation. More or less like, when I crossed strings, many times, I would simply rest stroke into the next string ala economy picking.

I don't give any conscious thought to what I'm doing - one or the other. That may be helpful starting out, in order to get a feel for it, and build the chops to do it. But once you step outside of a practice it should never be in the forefront of your mind - just like anything else.

My advice: Yes, look into it. Practice a lot of licks with it. See what feels good, see what kind of lines it loosens up for you. Practice it like you practice alt picking, but when you take a solo...just play.

[stevel]

I've been playing and think I've reached a physical limit to how fast I can pick. I've been playing for almost 3 years, practicing strict picking, and can't beat 16th notes at 130 bpm. I cannot do it perfectly any faster than that at this point.Well, the first thing I'd do is set the metronome up and pick just a single pitch in 16th note with the picking hand only (could just be an open string) and see if the problem is really your picking hand.

I just turned on a computer metronome (accurate?) and could play 16th notes at 160.

Now, I'm no shredder, or speed demon, and while I've practiced scales, I've never really spent more than a couple weeks (when I had the initiative) here or there trying to play fast. At 160, I'd say that's about the top end of my scales. But another little pattern I could play at that tempo all day long. Then another pattern I tried I couldn't even do.

So it also depends on what type of thing you're playing - some patterns will be easier for you than others.

I've played for, er. let's see, add 5, carry the 1, yes, roughly 29 years. And I bet I was faster back in the 80s metal days (trying to cop Yngwie, but never getting anywhere near that good) than I am now.

So you will "lose it" if you don't use it.


Yes I have tried many different picking/right hand styles. I don't use an index/thumb movement like Yngwie or a forearm movement like Kirk Hammet, just a regular style wrist motion with a little bit of knuckle movement in my thumb. I keep the pick at a slight incline so my pick attack is normal."incline" could be a problem - my problems usually come (when the problem is with the picking hand) when my pick "catches" on a string - usually from going to deep, or having an angle on the pick that pulls my hand in to the guitar - getting "trapped" so to speak.

So to make a long story short I have been considering adopting economy picking or even incorporating hammer-on/pull-offs/legato to get away with fast runs.
Nothing wrong with that. You'd be in good company. I tend to play HO/PO more because it fits more styles, is easier, and I can do it faster. No shame for me.



They say that economy picking limits your playing in that you end up having to plan every execution with the right picking sequence.Once you do it, it'll come natural. You're overthinking it [edit: yes, shredder patterns may require re-patterning, but the basic ideas of economy picking can be used in all kinds of applications where it can become very natural]

I think basically I'm looking for a way to cheat in order to take my playing to a higher level.One: If there were cheats, people would have figured them out already.

Two: You might consider redefining "higher level". Speed is but one aspect of playing. Try playing music WELL, instead of FAST :-)

Is this really a bad thing or does everybody do it?Again, I would consider a player who can pick multiple ways, and use the most effective method for a given musical situation to be of a "higher level" than someone who plays "drill bit speed".

As for everybody, I don't know. I use it - not a lot, but I do use it in patterns I've learned and that "fall under my hands" better with economy picking.

HTH,
Steve

[meganutt7]

I've been playing and think I've reached a physical limit to how fast I can pick. I've been playing for almost 3 years, practicing strict picking, and can't beat 16th notes at 130 bpm. I cannot do it perfectly any faster than that at this point.

I try bumping up the metronome a couple of clicks, and sometimes it seems like I made progress only to regress to about 124 bpm until I even my picking out again. I have to work to get back to 130 bpm again. Whenever I try playing past that speed my picking slowly falls apart and it's no longer perfect. I start missing a note here and there and next thing you know I've developed some jerkieness in my pick attack and I have to retrain to even out my picking stroke.

Yes I have tried many different picking/right hand styles. I don't use an index/thumb movement like Yngwie or a forearm movement like Kirk Hammet, just a regular style wrist motion with a little bit of knuckle movement in my thumb. I keep the pick at a slight incline so my pick attack is normal.

So to make a long story short I have been considering adopting economy picking or even incorporating hammer-on/pull-offs/legato to get away with fast runs.

I'm not getting any younger and I figure at this pace it will take 20 years to play what I want, that is if it's physically possible. I'm not gifted like those skinny players with long, limber little fingers. I have kind of big hands.

They say that economy picking limits your playing in that you end up having to plan every execution with the right picking sequence. I think basically I'm looking for a way to cheat in order to take my playing to a higher level.

Is this really a bad thing or does everybody do it?

Two answers to your question. First off, learning ANYTHING is never a bad idea. But, thinking that learning that one thing will solve all your problems is pretty unrealistic, as well.

As far as your claim that you have "reached a physical limit to how fast I can pick", well, it isn't a physical limit if you think you can do better with an alternate technique, is it?? You would be surprised what you can do PHYSICALLY with the right MENTAL framework and true dedication to analysis of WHY you're not able to get to where you want to go.

more often than not, picking prowess comes from accuracy and confidence in what you are going to play. For instance, if you have practiced playing a scale in a particular fingering for a long time and you have a good level of confidence about pulling it off, you will most likely be able to do that much faster than, say, a sweep picking lick that you just learned from a book 5 minutes ago. It's not internalized. Then, even when it IS internalized, it takes a little time for you to feel like you OWN it, like you can just whip it out of your bag of tricks at any time.

Economy picking is not as simple as you may think, particularly when it comes to playing in a rhythmically precise way. Also accents get a little messed up (potentially) with this technique.

I happen to use a lot of economy picking and, again, I think it's a wonderful technique, but do I think I play faster with it than alternate?? depends on the lick/idea, I suppose. The point is, as a guitarist/musician, you owe it to yourself to explore ALL the options available and then YOU CHOOSE the ones that make you feel content.

I, for instance, don't do alot of the "hammer on from nowhere/string skipping/tapping" lines that guys like Michael Romeo or Greg Howe might do. I have devised different techniques to achieve the same sound, approximately. I still use that technique (the string skip/tap wit hthe hammers from nowhere) but sparsely. It never became my thing.

I do, for instance, use a lot of hybrid picking and fingerstyle. Those elements work for me and I find their sound and possibilities appealing.

I try EVERY new technique I see, hear or read about. I try to be at least adequate at it and then decidce if I want to go hardcore and be amazing at it or determine I don't really care about it and leave it alone.

Explore, bro.

That is what the music is there for.

Forget about BPM's and getting to a certain speed using a certain technique.

Just try to realize the sound you hear in your head and use WHATEVER MEANS YOU NEED TO to make it a reality.