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View Full Version : strange transistors in my fulltone 69


applescruffs
08-04-2010, 11:14 PM
I bought this off ebay and it arrived with these 2SB415 that are made by Toshiba??? What is up with that. I thought these were NKT275 powered fuzzes. Did someone hijack the NKT's and throw these toshiba's in?

The good news it sounds unbelievable. The bad news is I have no comparison to know if NKT is better. It might not be an issue but I would have like to have heard the pedal with the real transistors.

johann
08-04-2010, 11:28 PM
well...if it sounds good...leave it that way (that's what I'd do)

SRVBlue
08-04-2010, 11:39 PM
I have seen alot of 2sb/nkt '69s. Looks like he started mixing and matching them quite alot before they were discontinued. One thing I am glad I learned here is that the NKT275's in the '69 were made for him and not NOS. After alot of research and digging I am pretty sure I know where they came from.

dsl
08-04-2010, 11:59 PM
Mine has 1 NKT-275 & 1 Toshiba 2SB415.

WinterSun
08-05-2010, 12:02 AM
mine has 2 NKT-275's and black knobs

popinvasion
08-05-2010, 12:05 AM
I think the NKT 275 transistors were the same as the dunlops. They are fake NKT transistors. I have no idea if they can sound good or bad or what the specs are on them.

applescruffs
08-05-2010, 12:31 AM
That toshiba was used in a lot of 69 pedals . He also used what looks to be fat body 2n type transistors . These are not what dunlop have used in there red fuzz face and I like the 2sb. These toshiba are really nice ,I am pretty sure Analogman uses these as the basic transistor options and london fuzz's also use Japanese 2sb types alot of times.

They are Japanese and they are nice transistors. They do sound different than old nkt's as used in original Arbiter England fuzz faces though. Some will tell you that it does not matter the letter on the side but I can always tell the 2sb type's just by the way the sound in the low end and fuzziness . London fuzz sounds very similar to these 69's imo. Still cool just not real nkt's even the ones with nkt printed on them . Some might say these 2sb are better .Just my 2 cents.

OK so if I understand
the Toshiba are legit
the 69 was not tampered with
and the Toshibas sound better than NKT's
The london fuzz and analogman sunface use the Toshibas as well.

It does sound absolutely stunning. Huge, big, cleans up like magic. Just unreal.

Good news thanks for the information everyone

SRVBlue
08-05-2010, 01:33 AM
OK so if I understand
the Toshiba are legit
the 69 was not tampered with
and the Toshibas sound better than NKT's
The london fuzz and analogman sunface use the Toshibas as well.

It does sound absolutely stunning. Huge, big, cleans up like magic. Just unreal.

Good news thanks for the information everyone
The toshiba's are definetely legit! About them sounding better than the NKT's, I couldn't say because I have never been lucky enough to play let alone A/B a real NKT Arbiter Fuzz with anything else. Someday... Someday... Good score on the '69!

Telepatio
08-05-2010, 07:47 AM
The '69 I sold had one of each: 1 NKT and 1 Toshiba.

The Sunface I had, had NKT's.

I can't speak to the legitimacy of the NKT's in the '69's or the Sunface's for that matter.

That said, they were pretty different sounding pedals.

David Vee
08-05-2010, 11:00 AM
I bought this off ebay and it arrived with these 2SB415 that are made by Toshiba??? What is up with that. I thought these were NKT275 powered fuzzes. Did someone hijack the NKT's and throw these toshiba's in?

The good news it sounds unbelievable. The bad news is I have no comparison to know if NKT is better. It might not be an issue but I would have like to have heard the pedal with the real transistors.

well...if it sounds good...leave it that way (that's what I'd do)

No wonder we TGP heads gets made fun of...

If I understand the OP... it sounds absolutely "unbelievable"... so then you check under the hood and are bummed by what you find?

I understand the fear that is was tampered with... but if it sounds as great as you say - why even question if it was tampered with?

I could care less what Mike Fuller used/uses/will use. If it works to my ears, I don't need to open the hood and start questioning what's there. Maybe he decided that NKT's don't get it done anymore... or maybe a "tamperer" did you a huge favor since the sound is superior.

That would be like saying you have a stock/mint Corvette that dusts everything it meets... then you open the hood and start complaining about the non-stock engine...

I could go on. My point is simple: if it ain't broke... don't fix it.

If it sounded wrong... then yes, question everything about the build.

Always let your ears decide if anything is wrong... not your eyes. The quest for tone comes from the ears, not the spec sheet.

Just my two cents... your mileage may vary.

StompBoxBlues
08-05-2010, 11:34 AM
No wonder we TGP heads gets made fun of...

If I understand the OP... it sounds absolutely "unbelievable"... so then you check under the hood and are bummed by what you find?



While I agree with all you wrote, I do understand the OP also.

I mean, if I wanted a Klon (I did, and I got one but that is beside the point) because of all I heard about it, etc. and I bought one that was sold as a Klon but I found out it wasn't one...but it sounded great, I'd still probably wonder if the "real" Klon sounded EVEN better...

It's why I didn't buy a clone.

But yeah...if it sounds great, it sounds great.

David Vee
08-05-2010, 11:52 AM
While I agree with all you wrote, I do understand the OP also.

I too, understand the OP... but I asked myself, "why?"

... found out it wasn't one...but it sounded great, I'd still probably wonder if the "real" Klon sounded EVEN better...


That, my friend, is the never-ending quest for "perfect" tone. (whatever that is)

Do I need to start checking all of my pedals for clones/mods/abnormalities?

That was my point. (perhaps a little more tongue-in-cheek than it needed to be)

Apologies to the OP, if needed...

As always, your mileage may vary.

Polynitro
08-05-2010, 01:14 PM
No wonder we TGP heads gets made fun of...

If I understand the OP... it sounds absolutely "unbelievable"... so then you check under the hood and are bummed by what you find?

.

It could in theory, sound unbelievabler.

I have these trannys in one of my fuzzes and it sounds unbelievablest.

meterman
08-05-2010, 01:20 PM
I had an early (1999) '69 fuzz with trannies both labeled NKT 275. My understanding at that point was that they were not NOS but Fuller was having them made for him by somebody. Honestly that fuzz never sounded great to me, kind of papery and raspy sounding, I connected with the London I that I've got now and with several other FF clones, more than I did with the '69. YMMV of course...

Mapleneck
08-05-2010, 02:28 PM
No wonder we TGP heads gets made fun of...

If I understand the OP... it sounds absolutely "unbelievable"... so then you check under the hood and are bummed by what you find?

I understand the fear that is was tampered with... but if it sounds as great as you say - why even question if it was tampered with?

I could care less what Mike Fuller used/uses/will use. If it works to my ears, I don't need to open the hood and start questioning what's there. Maybe he decided that NKT's don't get it done anymore... or maybe a "tamperer" did you a huge favor since the sound is superior.

That would be like saying you have a stock/mint Corvette that dusts everything it meets... then you open the hood and start complaining about the non-stock engine...

I could go on. My point is simple: if it ain't broke... don't fix it.

If it sounded wrong... then yes, question everything about the build.

Always let your ears decide if anything is wrong... not your eyes. The quest for tone comes from the ears, not the spec sheet.

Just my two cents... your mileage may vary.

Agreed, except...69's used to go for $110 used all day long when they were being made. Now you are paying more than twice that routinely. If I paid that kind of premium, and found out I didn't really have a stock Fulltone, I would be miffed. Even if it sounded good. Good sounding fuzzfaces are all over hell's half acre for MUCH less than the 69 cost. That premium price was paid to have a discontinued ORIGINAL Fulltone 69 that I could turn around and resell for the same money if I didn't like it. If it had been tampered with, you just paid $250 for, at most, a $100 pedal.

As for the trannies, they sound like the originals that Mike started using, I think because the NKT supply started to dry up. By all accounts they sound great. As noted the NKT's Fulltone used were not NOS. Analogman and Addrock, amoung others, use real NOS NKT's. You can always compare to those if concerned. But, no one should have just one fuzzface. You should have several and all of them with different trannies. They aren't better or worse, just different. Horses for courses.

applescruffs
08-05-2010, 04:55 PM
No wonder we TGP heads gets made fun of...

If I understand the OP... it sounds absolutely "unbelievable"... so then you check under the hood and are bummed by what you find?

I understand the fear that is was tampered with... but if it sounds as great as you say - why even question if it was tampered with?

I could care less what Mike Fuller used/uses/will use. If it works to my ears, I don't need to open the hood and start questioning what's there. Maybe he decided that NKT's don't get it done anymore... or maybe a "tamperer" did you a huge favor since the sound is superior.

That would be like saying you have a stock/mint Corvette that dusts everything it meets... then you open the hood and start complaining about the non-stock engine...

I could go on. My point is simple: if it ain't broke... don't fix it.

If it sounded wrong... then yes, question everything about the build.

Always let your ears decide if anything is wrong... not your eyes. The quest for tone comes from the ears, not the spec sheet.

Just my two cents... your mileage may vary.

And only on TGP would people criticize someone for double checking that they didn't get ripped. I mean seriously what if you bought a ferarri that looked great, drove great and you loved it. One day while getting your oil changed the jiffy lube guy says "hey by the way the whole engine was replaced by a ford mustang engine did you know that?"

Would you just say to yourself " well it drives great and I love the car so F it I am not going to worry about whats under the hood"

No you would be pissed.

My concern and reason for posting was verification, which I obtained.

Shame on someone for caring about the value of their money and value of their purchases.

David Vee
08-05-2010, 06:40 PM
And only on TGP would people criticize someone for double checking that they didn't get ripped. I mean seriously what if you bought a ferarri that looked great, drove great and you loved it. One day while getting your oil changed the jiffy lube guy says "hey by the way the whole engine was replaced by a ford mustang engine did you know that?"

Would you just say to yourself " well it drives great and I love the car so F it I am not going to worry about whats under the hood"

No you would be pissed.

My concern and reason for posting was verification, which I obtained.

Shame on someone for caring about the value of their money and value of their purchases.

Your point is well taken.

(Not the first time I opened my mouth... er, typed my words, without really thinking it thru... probably won't be the last.) :hide2

zombiwoof
08-07-2010, 10:41 PM
What people don't understand is that a Fuzz Face can be made to sound great with many different types of transistors. I have a 2SB176 and an AC128K in my modded Dunlop, and it sounds like a Fuzz Face is supposed to. There are no "magic" transistors. Just because AC128's and NKT275's were used in the originals doesn't mean they are the only transistors that will work fine in there. Pedal makers try to put those trannies in the pedals because people misguidedly think that's what has to be in them to have a good FF sound, but people are wrong. So don't worry that it doesn't have NKT 275's in it, worry about how it sounds.

Al

applescruffs
08-08-2010, 12:07 AM
What people don't understand is that a Fuzz Face can be made to sound great with many different types of transistors. I have a 2SB176 and an AC128K in my modded Dunlop, and it sounds like a Fuzz Face is supposed to. There are no "magic" transistors. Just because AC128's and NKT275's were used in the originals doesn't mean they are the only transistors that will work fine in there. Pedal makers try to put those trannies in the pedals because people misguidedly think that's what has to be in them to have a good FF sound, but people are wrong. So don't worry that it doesn't have NKT 275's in it, worry about how it sounds.

Al

sounds like you missed the point of the thread.. no big deal. Your point is not disputed.

applescruffs
08-08-2010, 12:08 AM
Your point is well taken.

(Not the first time I opened my mouth... er, typed my words, without really thinking it thru... probably won't be the last.) :hide2

no biggie

Hwoltage
08-08-2010, 12:21 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that those transistors were chosen by the designer and builder of the pedal... I think you can trust his decisions. Maybe there are things I don't know about Mike Fuller, but he most likely makes sound decisions about his component choices.

zombiwoof
08-08-2010, 01:52 AM
sounds like you missed the point of the thread.. no big deal. Your point is not disputed.

I don't know what point I missed, the OP expected to see a certain type of transistor in the '69 and found something different. It's well known the Fuller used different transistors in those pedals at different points in time, and probably changed them due to availability of the ones he was using. What point did I miss?.

Al

analogmike
08-08-2010, 07:09 PM
What people don't understand is that a Fuzz Face can be made to sound great with many different types of transistors. I have a 2SB176 and an AC128K in my modded Dunlop, and it sounds like a Fuzz Face is supposed to. There are no "magic" transistors. Just because AC128's and NKT275's were used in the originals doesn't mean they are the only transistors that will work fine in there.
Al

I don't think AC128 were used before the 1990s grey Arbiter reissues, and those were terrible.

Not all transistors can be made to sound good in a Fuzz Face but many of the old Japanes 2SB transistors are fabulous, one of my favorites.

Have fun!

applescruffs
08-08-2010, 08:26 PM
I don't think AC128 were used before the 1990s grey Arbiter reissues, and those were terrible.

Not all transistors can be made to sound good in a Fuzz Face but many of the old Japanes 2SB transistors are fabulous, one of my favorites.

Have fun!



Thanks for this. I actually got to do a mini shootout of several fuzz faces including another 69 with NKT's and another fuzzface with NKT's and this pedal. This 69 with the toshibas sounded the best. That explains a lot. Thank you Amike

To those who missed the point, I get the transistors are only part of the equation albeit a huge one. The point of this thread was verification, I believed I was ripped off as all the literature for 69 pedals says explicitly NKT275 including my pedals brochure.

octafish
08-09-2010, 12:34 PM
I've got a 69' with both NKTs and can't believe that if they the fake dunlop ones, they sound this good. I prefer it, at least with humbuckers, to my red dot sunface and both are head and shoulders above the MJM London fuzz and thats better than any ac128 fuzz I've ever tried...

The weird thing is the 69 sounds better with the sunface infront of it turned off, even though its true bypass, must be a capacitance thing?

zombiwoof
08-09-2010, 02:34 PM
Could not agree with you more on this. Hey Mike how do those ti cv7003(crap cant remember if that is right) transistors you use in the beano sound in a fuzz face? Those grey arbiter's from 90's where all messed up sometimes.

I have no idea why on the net people think they used ac128 in old fuzz face's. Who knows maybe the ran out of parts one day and a few fuzz's got out the door with those but I doubt it. In 69 Dallas made a few I have seen with a different bc number type but not too many of those out their. Still never saw a original 128 Arbiter original one.

Well, it was reported that AC128 were used in some, and that's what Roger Mayer uses in the Classic Fuzz, so I'm sure there were some. My point was that you can get a good sounding FF using many different transistors, not just the ones that were used in the originals. Guys are building good Fuzz Faces today with Japanese, Chinese, and Russian transistors. It's the gain of the trannies that is most important to get a good sounding FF. I'm not saying that ANY transistor will sound good, just that many will. Mike Fuller and Analog Man know which ones will work well, but most people are not going to buy a FF clone with Chinese or Russian transistors because they believe that only the original transistors that were used will sound right. This is incorrect, but that's the way people are.

Al

zombiwoof
08-09-2010, 02:40 PM
The fake NKT's that I've seen, like the ones in the Dunlop FF's, are the small can ones with the lip on the bottom. They look like the modern AC128's, with the small can. They are just relabeled transistors of a different type, and may be the small AC128's, or more likely are NTE transistors of a similar type. NTE's are replacement transistors that can be very unreliable, and possibly seconds, so I would never use them myself. I have one of those MXR-sized Jimi Hendrix Fuzz Faces that Dunlop made, and it came with NTE transistors. The transistors are the wrong gains, and it sounds like crap. I'm going to mod it with good trannies in the near future. The real NKT's were the ones with the large can, not the slim ones, but even those have been faked these days. But I would say anything in an Analog Man or Fulltone pedal is the real deal, those guys would not use fake transistors.

Al

zombiwoof
08-09-2010, 02:59 PM
I have been collecting buying and selling old fuzz face for a minute. I have never seen one yet with 128 and either have any of my friends so I dont know. Either way it is down to your ears and how it feels to play/responds to you as you play. I will say that I have been through a decent amount and I love the old nkts and they definitly have something to them if find a nice ff with em.

I have had lots of clones with different transistors and they dont sound quite the same(not a bad thing). The original nkt's have a little lower gain than a lot of majic numbers floating around on the net for the transistors. I guess it is like tubes ,just because two brands test the same does not mean they will sound alot alike. Or this could be with all parts used in circuit.

Either way I am not a transistor snob but a musician who loves fuzz faces. Bottom line in how does sound with you and your rig. Lots of choices out their and enjoy having fun using them.

I don't really care if any original FF's had AC128's, and don't want to debate about that. The thing you have to keep in mind is that many of the original Fuzz Faces, with the "magic" transistors in them, sounded like crap. You might pay $1000 for a vintage one and get one of those dogs. They didn't do a good job of measuring the gains of the transistors on the old Fuzz Faces, that's why Jimi used to go through piles of FF's to find a couple that sounded good. Not every one sounded good!. But the good ones sound incredible. I tried a few different transistor combos in my modded Dunlop FF, until I found two transistors that sounded the way I wanted it to. In my case it was one 2SB176 and one AC128K (AC128 in a rectangular heat sink housing, that is not as temperature-sensitive as a regular AC128). I can't afford $500-1000 for an original, but I was able to mod a RI to sound pretty good.

Al