Diminished Scale/Chord help

[Tone]

I was reading a lesson in GuitarONE mag about Diminished scales. I was wondering when can you actually apply these? Do they only work over diminished chords? How far from the V7 chord should it generally be played? Half step, whole step, other?

Also, say you are playing in something like Am Pentatonic, and you end your lick on Ab and slide into A. Does this type of thing always work?

I posted this elsewhere, but I got back so many different views on it, that it was getting really confusing.

Thanks!

:dude

[lhallam]

I use it all the time over all kinds of chords. I don't follow the rules quite often and sometimes it's a trainwreck, but more people stop to look at a trainwreck than one on it's tracks anyway.

Both renditions work over a dominant 7th.

The whole step 1/2 step works better over a min 7th because it doesn't introduce a major 3rd. Fripp has been known to play a M3 over a minor chord so take what I say with a grain of salt.

These aren't hard fast rules, but simply what I do sometimes.

Just try it out and find you're own voice.

[bobbymack]

The diminished scale is nice for connecting the I and IV chords in the blues, among other things.

[Tim Bowen]

As for practical application, a common usage is in bar (measure) #6 of a twelve bar blues. Typically, bars #5 and #6 contain the IV chord; a diminished application a half step above the root of the IV in bar #6 lends nice tension before resolving back to the I in bar #7 (regardless of whether underlying harmony actually contains a diminished or half-diminished chord). In the less common eight bar blues format (such as "Key to the Highway"), this IV-I move would occur in bar #4.

I use diminished sounds (as well as augmented sounds) all the time over static dominant 7th chords, but it's a matter of taste (or in my case, lack thereof), as to what tweaks the ear in a pleasing way. Personally, I don't care as much for diminished "scales", and prefer the more angular sound of diminished "arpeggios" (as applied sparingly, with bending, nuance, and chicken grease).

It probably goes without saying, but diminished tonalities basically repeat themselves in increments of minor thirds, while augmented sounds cycle in major thirds.

[Tone]

Thanks, Tim!
So are you saying that if the chords are C, F, G. You would play a F#diminished chord in place of the F7 in bars 5-6?

[Tim Bowen]

Hi Tone,

For the application we're talking, I would treat bar #5 as "F7" (for example, F mixolydian), and bar #6 as F# diminished, with stong resolution back to the I (C) in bar #7 (in Western harmony, the third [E, for the key of C] is always the srongest chord tone resolution).

That said, I don't always approach bar #6 as ----> "look out, time for diminished up a half step!" - you get what I'm saying. It's merely a harmonic device that presents itself as a possibility to the ears. I think it's a good idea to try this stuff out academically when practicing at home, but for life on the bandstand, it's best to assimilate these ideas over time, and let them fall naturally within your playing, in a less contrived and mechanical manner. Hope that helps.

[bobbymack]

Well said Tim!

As a point of simplification, given that the diminished tones repeat in minor thirds, couldn't one think of the I or root chord's diminished scale for bar #6 rather than the sharp IV's?

For simple fretboard illustration, let's play blues in G. The IV chord here would be C7 on fret 8, and the sharped IV would be C# on fret 9, six frets up from the I chord on fret 3. If the scale is movable every three frets, basically the same diminished scale is on fret 3 as on fret 9, yes? So you can play Gdim (or C#dim) runs in bar #6, resolving strongly as you suggest to root chord tones in bar #7?

[meterman]

Tone, I just picked up that magazine too for the first time mainly for that article, and I am pleasantly surprised! Anyway, everytime I hear someone play diminished and augmented stuff I'm like "that's it! What was that?", it just sounds so fresh and interesting weaving in and out of tension and release...I'm very excited about learning to incorporate some of these moves into my improv as I feel like that's somewhere I've been wanting to go for a long time but have never been quite sure how to get there....

A somewhat humorous story, regarding when and where to try new stuff....about 12 years ago I got a chance to play 3-piece with a well known local drummer who's successful blues band (The Urban Shakedancers) had just broken up. Me & the bass player had come from another blues/rock band who had always been about 3 steps behind the drummer's old band in terms of ability, "authenticity", success, etc so we kinda had something to prove. Well, I had just read a GP article by Robben Ford about incorporating diminished stuff into blues and was all hot to try some of it. I thought we were just jamming, but it turns out the drummer was looking at it more like an audition, and didn't appreciate my clumsy efforts to use diminished runs over the changes on a slow blues!! That, plus the tone of my 130w Music Man stack on 1 at living room volume :rolleyes: and it was all over....

Moral of the story: don't try to play "out", until you've already shown that you can play "in" :D

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by bobbymack
Well said Tim!

As a point of simplification, given that the diminished tones repeat in minor thirds, couldn't one think of the I or root chord's diminished scale for bar #6 rather than the sharp IV's?

For simple fretboard illustration, let's play blues in G. The IV chord here would be C7 on fret 8, and the sharped IV would be C# on fret 9, six frets up from the I chord on fret 3. If the scale is movable every three frets, basically the same diminished scale is on fret 3 as on fret 9, yes? So you can play Gdim (or C#dim) runs in bar #6, resolving strongly as you suggest to root chord tones in bar #7?
Shouldn't that be identified as a "G# diminished scale" (whole-half diminished) or a "G dominant diminished scale" (half-whole diminished)? Of course, it's the same scale, beginning on different roots, but it gets confusing unless you use the correct nomenclature.

littlemoon

[Tone]

What's the difference between Diminished and Dominant Diminished scales? Is one just half/whole, and the other whole/half? Thanks for all the help, guys! It's been a lot easier learning from this thread, than searching for Diminished theory lessons. I have'nt come across a good diminished lesson site yet.:dude

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by Tone
What's the difference between Diminished and Dominant Diminished scales? Is one just half/whole, and the other whole/half? Thanks for all the help, guys! It's been a lot easier learning from this thread, than searching for Diminished theory lessons. I have'nt come across a good diminished lesson site yet.:dude
Yes. The "dominant-diminished" is the half-whole scale that begins on the root of the dominant chord over which it is played. The diminished scale is the whole-half scale that begins on the root of the diminished chord over which it is played - usually 1/2 step above the dominant chord being substituted by the diminished chord. Note the close relation between a dominant chord and the diminished 7th chord 1/2 step above it - i.e., G#dim7 is essentially a G7(b9).

Some people find that it helps to think of the scale as a "dominant-diminished" in the same key as the dominant chord over which it is played, rather than "thinking changes" by substituting the dominant chord with a diminished 7th chord 1/2 step above the dominant and then playing the "diminished scale" over that substitution.

littlemoon

[littlemoon]

By the way, you might want to check out Don Mock's "Symmetrical Scales Revealed" for a concise yet illuminating study on the diminished and whole tone scales, sequences, and arpeggios and their use over static and functioning dominant chords and in various 2-5 progressions.

littlemoon

[EricT]

I use the half/whole diminished scale all the time to get outside over one chord vamps, or 7th chords in general. This is something I've picked up from John Scofield, he uses this scale a lot.

[fusion58]

The dominant diminished (half/whole) scale is a good scale to use over a dominant chord with an altered ninth and a natural 13th (6th.)

Why?

Here are the intervals of the diminished half/whole scale:

1, b2(b9), b3(#9), 3, #4(#11), 5, 6(13), b7

Here is the dim half/whole scale starting on E:

E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B, C#, D

(Note: there is no one correct enharmonic spelling for this scale. In other words, it's OK to use either sharps or flats.)

As you can see, all the notes used to build the following altered dominant chords are present in the dim h/w scale:

E7(b9) = E, G#(Ab), B, D, F

E7(#9) = E, G#, B, D, G

E13(b9) = E, G#, B, C#, D, F

E13(#9) = E, G#, B, C#, D, G

...etc., etc.

So, whenever I see one of these chords in a piece of music, I automatically think dominant diminished (which isn't to say dominant diminished is the only scale choice...but that's for another discussion.)

How to get started using this scale?

1) Learn the fingering patterns for the scale - familiarize your ear with the sound of the scale (and with the sound of the scale against the aforementioned chord types.)

2) Learn melodic lines and phrases built from the scale (whereupon you will begin to make music with the scale as opposed to merely running up and down the scale.)

I'll bet there are some people on this forum who are willing to share cool diminished lines they know. ;)

Good luck!

:cool:

[jeffh]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
As for practical application, a common usage is in bar (measure) #6 of a twelve bar blues.

I just gave that a try... very cool. The band I play in hosts an open stage night. We get lots of 12 bar stuff and I get tired of hearing myself play :) Thanks for something new !!

[bobbymack]

Originally posted by littlemoon
Shouldn't that be identified as a "G# diminished scale" (whole-half diminished) or a "G dominant diminished scale" (half-whole diminished)? Of course, it's the same scale, beginning on different roots, but it gets confusing unless you use the correct nomenclature.

littlemoon
Yep, my bad. Right idea, wrong words....

Thanks for clarifying.

[stan p]

Here is a hint for using dim chords:

Take a C7 chord in III position as a base. Starting from 5th to 1st string, the notes in the chord will be C, G, F, E, G.

To make C#dim out of it - move your finger on the fith string from C to C#. Keep other fingers in the same position.

Try a classic II-V-I turnarround in C. This will give you the following chords - Dm7, G7, Cmaj7. Then try inserting a C#dim between Cmaj7 and Dm7.

Try playing A7 instead of C#dim.

Another hint ... PLay A7 in Vth position on 1st four strings (G, C#, E, A). Now move The finger on A to A#. This will give you another dim chord. Try moving it back and forth ...

I hope this helps...

Stan P.

[Tone]

Thanks for the tips, Stan!
So by moving just the root note a half step up, you can get a diminished chord?

[stan p]

Originally posted by Tone
Thanks for the tips, Stan!
So by moving just the root note a half step up, you can get a diminished chord?

YES. By moving root of any 7th chord get a dim 1 semitone above.

A7 -> A#dim.

Diminished chords have one interesting property that generate many rules of chord use and substitution. They are made of equal intervals, - three minor thirds!

Take any dim chord and try moving any note of it 1 semitone down - what r you gonna get?

[Tone]

The Dominant 7th chord of the note you flatted by a semitone!?:dude

[mtfingers]

The Dominant 7th chord of the note you flatted by a semitone!

That's exactly it. This implies some very cool things:

1.) The note you are flatting is the b9 of the chord whose root is one note down. No matter what note you are flatting, so you can really look at any given diminished chord as three 7-9 chords. For instance an Ab dim would be a G7-9, but it would also be Bb7-9, Db7-9 or E7-9. Of course, its the same thing every three frets up! Now you have inversions (??) out the wazoo.

2.) Keeping that in mind, notice that a diminished seventh chord, is the 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale. So, for instance in a basic progression like this: |Cmaj7 | C#dim | Dm7 | G7 | , you can play a D har. min. scale over that C#dim. This becomes immediately apparent if you see the C#dim chord as an A7-9.

3.) BUT...isn't a C#dim 3 other 7-9 chords? Yeah man, they are, and what this implies is that you can play ALL 4 harmonic minor scales over that C#dim, and it will sound cool!!! Basically moving the scale patterns up in minor thirds, just like the diminished scale itself is all you have to do, so that C#dim chord will breed: D har. min. F har. min. Ab har. min, and Bhar. min. Now THAT'S cool.

4.) This is all diatonic, but not really diatonic, if you know what I mean. That C#dim is supposed to substitute for an A7b9 about 99% of the time, and this would be the sound you would want to go for. Still, nobody is going to shoot you if you play the other scales.

[Dajbro]

Here are a couple of links that you may or may not find helpful.

http://www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com/articles/article3.html

http://www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com/articles/article4.html

David

[stan p]

Very interesting articles.

[beavis]

Great thread guys, very interesting stuff. I'm a complete noob to this and don't mean to hijack the thread, but, is what you guys are talking about similar to the sound of playing melodic minor a half-step above the root of the dominant chord? It looks kinda' close to me...???

Also, I was recently shown the diminished arp. (I think) which was just all minor 3rds...i.e. if you start on A:

A, C, Eb, Gb

I am new to this but have sorta' been trying it in "turn around" type places and it definitely can create tension (maybe too much) but what specific chord types would it make sense over?

Thanks!

[Tim Bowen]

Hey Beavis,

Whole tone, diminished, and augmented sounds sorta play together after a point.

Regarding use of the melodic minor mode, up a half step from the root of a dominant seventh chord, it's, as related to the root:

b2/b9 - b3 - 3 - #4/#11/b5 - b6/b13 - b7

For what it's worth, and to put it into a 'real world' context, I use this approach (and similar sounds) over an altered V7 chord, but never over a I7, IV7, or static I7 (plenty of FusionMeisters do so, however, and they're welcome to it; it depends on how much your ears [and never forget the ears of your audience] enjoy being tweaked).

Over a I7, IV7, or static I7, I'd personally be more inclined to choose melodic minor up a fifth from the root, which is merely a mixolydian mode with a raised 4/11. Listen to Wynton Kelley's piano ride on "Freddie the Freeloader" from Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.

About the only time I use harmonic minor scales anymore is up a 4th from a (non-altered) dominant chord.

Listen to the sounds of minor7b5 arps, up a major 3rd, as well as up a major 6th, from the root of a (non-altered) dominant 7th chord.

Keep in mind that I've not done mainstream jazz gigs in at least ten years, and I generally abhor the sounds of "fusion". What I'm talking about here is (my) practical application over pop, swing, blues, rockabilly, country, for what it's worth.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen

As for practical application, a common usage is in bar (measure) #6 of a twelve bar blues.

Originally posted by jeffh

I just gave that a try... very cool. The band I play in hosts an open stage night. We get lots of 12 bar stuff and I get tired of hearing myself play :) Thanks for something new !!

Coolness, happy to have made myself useful for a change!

[bbarnard]

Originally posted by fusion58
How to get started using this scale?

1) Learn the fingering patterns for the scale - familiarize your ear with the sound of the scale (and with the sound of the scale against the aforementioned chord types.)

2) Learn melodic lines and phrases built from the scale (whereupon you will begin to make music with the scale as opposed to merely running up and down the scale.)

Ah, there's the rub for me. I can typically get through #1 but don't have a clue where to go for #2. Thus anything I'm likely to trot out in real "playing" either 1) sounds like a scale run or 2) sounds like an arp played from root to whereever. I'd like clues on how to get to #2.

[Tone]

Hey Tim,
What's a static I7?

[Tim Bowen]

Tone,

"Static" in this sense simply means that there are no chord changes. Players often choose a dominant 7th foundation as an improvisational vehicle (as opposed to minor or major tonalities), due to the fact that dominant tonalities yield or coax the wider array of harmonic possibility.

The most common scenario for the static I7 is probably a good ol' greasy funk groove. While the band was not particularly noted for improvisation, think any number of James Brown tunes that skank hard on a garden variety 9th chord voicing. "Acid Jazz" music is largely built upon this premise, although there are often interesting extensions and chord substitutions superimposed over the basic tonalities. For that matter, some examples of Rap and Electronica music would more or less fall in, although not so frequently depending on the dominant 7 backdrop. There are certainly examples of I chord vamps in other styles of music as well. One that comes to mind in the Blues genre is the Nighthawks' cover of Howlin' Wolf's "How Many More Years". Among classic Rock tunes, Creedence Clearwater Revival's "Born on the Bayou" springs to mind.

[Tone]

Thanks a lot, Tim!

So static and vamp, are the same thing? I knew what vamp was, but never really heard static chord before.

Thanks!

[bbarnard]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen


The most common scenario for the static I7 is probably a good ol' greasy funk groove. While the band was not particularly noted for improvisation, think any number of James Brown tunes that skank hard on a garden variety 9th chord voicing.

Which brings to mind the James Brown interview of a potential new guitar player for his band:

JB: Can you play a 9th chord?

NGP: Sure!

JB: All night long?:D

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by Tone
Thanks a lot, Tim!

So static and vamp, are the same thing? I knew what vamp was, but never really heard static chord before.

Thanks!

My pleasure.

A "vamp" does not necessarily contain only one chord, but is usually quite simple in structure. Vamps are often utilized within tunes that contain more sophisticated chord changes, as vehicles for instrumental breaks, or as outro fades (endings).

A fairly common two chord vamp is the I-7 to IV7 move. A good example would be that of George Benson's cover of Leon Russell's chart, "This Masquerade". "Stormy" and "Spooky" by Dennis Yost and the Classics IV, as well as Steely Dan's "Josie" also contain this move. As best I recall, all of Benson's solos on the aforementioned recording were played over such a vamp, while the pianist took a ride over the changes that support the head (melody). I think Benson's vamp on the track was Fminor7 to Bb7 (voicing of which could contain extensions such as 9 or 13). "Vamps" are usually designed such that not a lot of cerebral forethought is required - the whole point is to set up a vehicle that is musically natural. There are of course exceptions.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by bbarnard
Which brings to mind the James Brown interview of a potential new guitar player for his band:

JB: Can you play a 9th chord?

NGP: Sure!

JB: All night long?:D


heh... a bandmate and I do this routine all the time - I suppose we're easily amused, we never seem to tire of it! I've often wondered if this was an actual conversation that took place, or if it was just a cute little story that was passed around for our amusement...

The dialogue that I'm familiar with is as follows:

JB: Can ya play an E9 chord?

GP: Yes.

JB: Can ya play it all night long?

GP: Yes.

JB: Let's go!




Either way, dat's some funny chit.

[art420guitar]

the best book for this subject: http://www.guitaraxis.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProdID=927

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by art420guitar
the best book for this subject: http://www.guitaraxis.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProdID=927 +1. Don's Melodic Minor Secrets Revealed is also quite good.

littlemoon