What to replace these hamer tuners with??

[edwardsforest]

Wondering what options I have in terms of replacing my hamer tuners with some better quality ones. Thing is, really don't want to have to drill any holes anywhere on the headstock. A new screw position would be fine I guess....
What kind of tuners can I use in replacement? I really have no preference, just something that will work better than these junk stock ones....

I know, kind of a dumb question, but bare with me here..!
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/bturner4shortys/IMG_1334.jpg

[gunslinger]

I'm not sure who made those. Maybe Gotoh, maybe Schaller. If they were Schaller I'd say Schaller M6 tuners should fit.

Here's a picture of an '83 Dean with Schaller M6 tuners:

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/%21B28HNHQ%21mk%7E$%28KGrHqV,%21i8E%29sQb%21CtHBMk Y-d7nZg%7E%7E_12.JPG

http://luthierssupplies.com.au/images/Schaller-M6.jpg


Here's the Gotoh:

http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/0903/Gotoh_Large_Schaller-style_Knob_Machines_Detail.jpg

Since the guitar is made in China they're probably not Schaller tuners. You just need to find out the hole size and go from there. They might even be Chinese made tuners.

[walterw]

those die-cast enclosed tuners are perfectly fine. if you're having problems staying in tune, it's not because of those keys.

any tuning problems are far more likely to be coming from the nut.

[GM Reszel]

those die-cast enclosed tuners are perfectly fine. if you're having problems staying in tune, it's not because of those keys.

any tuning problems are far more likely to be coming from the nut.

Ditto! People often use the misnomer 'my tuners are slipping' which by its mechanism is impossible.

There can sometimes be the issue that tuners are not smooth, sloppy, etc but even the cheapest of cheap does not slip. However the makers of locking tuners would like you to think contrary.

[mc5nrg]

Keeping the usual "sight unseen, no hands on experience" disclaimer in mind- the tuners look like they should be serviceable and your problem is elsewhere.

[gunslinger]

I've had a Grover tuner go bad. Maybe the guitar's previous owner didn't take care of it. But tuners can go bad. I've had guitars with Schaller, Grover, and Gotoh tuners. And the Gotoh did not seem as good as the others. To this day I won't buy them.

[Mike9]

If you insist on new tuners the M6 are not the ones you want - if you look at the screw tang they are different. Grovers would be a drop in replacement for those Hamers, but as stated those tuners are just fine and any tuning issues are elsewhere.

[edwardsforest]

I see. I believe I might not have the guitar as accurately set up as it could be....
thanks for the opinions guys!

[walterw]

I've had guitars with Schaller, Grover, and Gotoh tuners. And the Gotoh did not seem as good as the others. To this day I won't buy them.
interesting, as gotohs are some of my favorite keys, and are usually made better than anything from grover these days (japanese vs. korean/chinese). are you sure you weren't encountering pings that just looked like gotohs?

gotoh vintage keys are kinda the industry standard kluson style.

[gunslinger]

interesting, as gotohs are some of my favorite keys, and are usually made better than anything from grover these days (japanese vs. korean/chinese). are you sure you weren't encountering pings that just looked like gotohs?

They were Gotohs on a B.C. Rich I used to own. This was twenty-two years ago. So are Grovers made overseas?

[walterw]

these days I think so, yeah. Japanese-made gotoh is really good hardware all around, bridges as well as keys.

[mc5nrg]

IMHO Grovers haven't been USA manufactured in a couple decades.

[gunslinger]

IMHO Grovers haven't been USA manufactured in a couple decades.
You're right. I just found out.

[Jaredyo!]

Ditto! People often use the misnomer 'my tuners are slipping' which by its mechanism is impossible.

There can sometimes be the issue that tuners are not smooth, sloppy, etc but even the cheapest of cheap does not slip. However the makers of locking tuners would like you to think contrary.

Funny, when was the last time you jumped all over the stage, threw your guitar behind your head / back and other various guitar tricks and it didn't go out of tune?

I have several different guitars i use on stage, but i did update two of them with locking tuners, and it corrected the problem completely. But then again, i'm somewhat of a madman on stage, love to perform. So, it really depends on how much action you guitar is going through. Not all of my guitars have them, but in some cases, i needed to go that route.

[GM Reszel]

Funny, when was the last time you jumped all over the stage, threw your guitar behind your head / back and other various guitar tricks and it didn't go out of tune?


Funny, yeah, the last time was Saturday, with my strat doing the same type of wild activity. I use the bar all night, get very agressive; stock trem, stock klusons. Minor tuning adjustments on break, never any issues during songs. However the fun ended on that one Saturday when I broke a string. I guess it's just what you like to use. To me it's funny that people think they have to have the locking tuners.

Just tell me this: what does a locking tuner lock in place?

[Jaredyo!]

Funny, yeah, the last time was Saturday, with my strat doing the same type of wild activity. I use the bar all night, get very agressive; stock trem, stock klusons. Minor tuning adjustments on break, never any issues during songs. However the fun ended on that one Saturday when I broke a string. I guess it's just what you like to use. To me it's funny that people think they have to have the locking tuners.

Just tell me this: what does a locking tuner lock in place?

i don't really know, nor i care. It worked on those guitars, i got them at a fair price. So what? i already stated i don't use them on all of my gear. i tried those, and liked them for the two i put them on. It's not for everybody i guess. I'm not saying they are better than non locking. It just worked in that case.

Actually, on both occasions i got them i was watching different sets of tuners on ebay, and in those two instances they were the cheapest. I would have settled just fine without lockers, but hey, i like to save $ and i won those. haha.

[NoahL]

Okay, this thread threw me for a totally unexpected loop. You guys are saying that when a guitar slips out of tune too quickly, it's always the nut? I assume you mean that it's binding upon tune-up and then slipping out during the stress of playing? But this brings up questions: When you tune a string, you can certainly feel that the tuner us under a lot of tension. So what exactly prevents it from slipping? It's not locked like a fishing rod -- to me it feels like it's in a kind of balance, between the pressure it exerts one way and the pressure the strings exert another. Also, isn't a bad nut usually revealed by "pinging" as you tune? I've had plenty of guitars that slipped out of tune after a song or two that didn't "ping" on tune-up. And finally, if tuners can't slip, then why do we spend more than $20 on them? Why even argue about Grovers, Schallers, Sperzels and just buy the cheapest Stewmac has to offer?

I'm being rhetorical, sort of. But this brings up another question: if tuners don't slip, do we tune up every day because the strings have stretched overnight? I always figured it was a combination of strings stretching AND tuners slipping.

Thanks, guys!

[Ronsonic]

Lots of good questions in there. I can answer some.

Tuners don't "slip" because it is a worm gear mechanism. The nature of worm gears is that they only work one way. The worm can turn the pinion, but the pinion cannot turn the worm. Where tuners can go bad is having various forms of slop in them. The meshing of the gears is not perfect which is why it is important to tune upwards to pitch to take up that slack. Really crappy tuners have gears made of soft mushy brass that deforms with only little use. These develop tight and loose spots in their rotation. Crappy tuners can also do a poor job of holding the gears together in their proper relationship. The extra money for Schallers, Sperzels, et al. gets you better materials, machining and design. THey just feel better and smoother and tune up easier.

Nuts can hang up while tuning they can also grab a string when you bend. Sometimes they release it suddenly with a ping sometimes they sneak the string back down without telling you. Strings can also hang up at the string tree and at the bridge.

Another problem can be the string stack on the post of the tuner. As you wind a string onto the post and tune it up the first time the end wraps are tighter than the ones you started with and it takes a bit for this to settle and the stack to tighten up. This is one of the reasons we stretch strings after installing them.

If you've gotten all of this nailed down you won't be tuning up daily. A tuned guitar put on the rack should stay tuned for days.

[gunslinger]

Okay, this thread threw me for a totally unexpected loop. You guys are saying that when a guitar slips out of tune too quickly, it's always the nut? I assume you mean that it's binding upon tune-up and then slipping out during the stress of playing? But this brings up questions: When you tune a string, you can certainly feel that the tuner us under a lot of tension. So what exactly prevents it from slipping? It's not locked like a fishing rod -- to me it feels like it's in a kind of balance, between the pressure it exerts one way and the pressure the strings exert another. Also, isn't a bad nut usually revealed by "pinging" as you tune? I've had plenty of guitars that slipped out of tune after a song or two that didn't "ping" on tune-up. And finally, if tuners can't slip, then why do we spend more than $20 on them? Why even argue about Grovers, Schallers, Sperzels and just buy the cheapest Stewmac has to offer?

I'm being rhetorical, sort of. But this brings up another question: if tuners don't slip, do we tune up every day because the strings have stretched overnight? I always figured it was a combination of strings stretching AND tuners slipping.

Thanks, guys!I believe some tuners can slip and or are defective. I've had three go bad. Two were Grovers (on used guitars) and one was a brand new Gotoh. Yeah strings can go flat or sharp overnight because of fluctuations in humidity. But the tuners may be a problem too. Sometimes they can wear out and won't grip. Sperzels look like good tuners. I haven't tried them yet though.

[Jaredyo!]

I believe some tuners can slip and or are defective. I've had three go bad. Two were Grovers (on used guitars) and one was a brand new Gotoh. Yeah strings can go flat or sharp overnight because of fluctuations in humidity. But the tuners may be a problem too. Sometimes they can wear out and won't grip. Sperzels look like good tuners. I haven't tried them yet though.

I have some sperzels. love em. And the do hold tune better than the stock ones did.

That's not always the case, but that time it was.

[Jaredyo!]

they*

[GM Reszel]

Tuners don't "slip" because it is a worm gear mechanism. The nature of worm gears is that they only work one way. The worm can turn the pinion, but the pinion cannot turn the worm. Where tuners can go bad is having various forms of slop in them.

Nuts can hang up while tuning they can also grab a string when you bend. Sometimes they release it suddenly with a ping sometimes they sneak the string back down without telling you. Strings can also hang up at the string tree and at the bridge.

Another problem can be the string stack on the post of the tuner. As you wind a string onto the post and tune it up the first time the end wraps are tighter than the ones you started with and it takes a bit for this to settle and the stack to tighten up. This is one of the reasons we stretch strings after installing them.

Excellent explanation!