Do "hotter" pickups tend to get muddy when pushed?

[jimmyohio75]

I have been researching humbucker pickups lately and many people describe hotter pickups as tending to be "muddy" under high gain. Do hotter pu's get muddier than say a more PAF vintage PU that's not as hot? I am looking to buy some new buckers to put in my new Fender Blacktop Telecaster. I am looking at the following:
Rio Grande BBQ
WCR Darkburst/Godwood
Wolfetone Marshallhead
Seymour Duncan Custom 5
SD Distortion
SD JB

Any suggestions of which would sound good in a tele body? We play hard rock ala ZZ Top meets Black Sabbath.

[RocksOff]

What amp you using. If you're using a high gain amp, I'd go with a lower wind. Something in a PAF flavor. If your amp isn't high gain, I'd go for a hotter wind.

[torquil]

This depends a lot on your amp, so I don't think a single answer is possible. It depends on both the frequency spectrum of the pickup output signal, but also on the strngth of the signal.

The signal from your pickups is the same regardless of the amount of distortion generated by your amp. The question is, can your amp make a create nice distortion from your pickup signal. And that would depend a lot on the amp gain structure/circuit.

E.g., with a weak pickup you might not get much distortion from the second gain stage even with the amp gain maximized. On the other hand, hot pickups could lead to more distortion in the second stage. If your second gain stage creates ugly distortion (e.g. due to its biasing/cathode cap choice/allows too much bass etc) then hot pickups would be less desireable (or you could probably just turn down your amp gain...).

So the answer depends on your amp. I.e. you have to experiment. And lastly, even if you mention the name of your amp, I wouldn't know the answer... :-)

[jimmyohio75]

What amp you using. If you're using a high gain amp, I'd go with a lower wind. Something in a PAF flavor. If your amp isn't high gain, I'd go for a hotter wind.
I have two amps and they are both fairly high gain. We aren't talking Peavey 6550 or Soldano SLO high gain but pretty close. They are both Twister amps. I have the 22 watt Devil '88 and a brand new Park Layne 50. The Park Layne has more gain than the Devil '88.
So you are saying I should stay away from something really hot because my amps already have the capability to get distorted without help from the pickups? My buddy suggested SD Antiquities for the same reasons that you are describing. I guess the Antiquities must be more vintage flavored?

[Tone_Terrific]

Hi-ouput pups tend towards more mids, which is good for distortion tone as too much high end can cause harshness.
OTOH, too much midrange can sound honky or muddy, so, (see Torquil) you have to consider the whole chain, and the end goal, if you start to get fussy about this sort of thing.

[Buckeyedog]

I would go vintage hot at most. Have you considered Wade at motorcity?? I'd say his 2nd degree black belts, or Detroiters maybe. But if you e-mail him, he will recommend something for you.

[carbz]

I think a general rule is when trying to achieve really high amounts of gain the likely more mush no matter where the output comes from. That being said the only thing that matters is the amount of gain your talking about. If your planning on using a high output pickup you'll likely want to send it to a cleaner signal to keep any kind of clarity. I can pretty much guarantee a high output pickup into a high-gain amp will = at least a decent amount of mush.

[RocksOff]

I have two amps and they are both fairly high gain. We aren't talking Peavey 6550 or Soldano SLO high gain but pretty close. They are both Twister amps. I have the 22 watt Devil '88 and a brand new Park Layne 50. The Park Layne has more gain than the Devil '88.
So you are saying I should stay away from something really hot because my amps already have the capability to get distorted without help from the pickups? My buddy suggested SD Antiquities for the same reasons that you are describing. I guess the Antiquities must be more vintage flavored?

Yeah. I think that's pretty much the gist of it. I'm not sure what circuits those amps are based off of. If you can get high gain out of them, then let your pickups provide the clarity via lower output. If they are medium gain, however, get some hotter pups to saturate it a bit more. There is a lot more to it than that, but I doubt you are concerned with the theory of it and just want the results. Can you name a reference tone that you're aiming for, and give us an idea about the circuit designs of the amps?

I see that one of them has a single KT88 output tube. I would imagine that you could get pretty good saturation from the amp alone if you turn it up. I think I'd go for a "typical" PAF, though there really isn't such a thing. PAFs were all over the map. There are a lot of guys who do a 'slightly hotter PAF' thing. I really like the Bare Knuckle Riff Raffs for that sort of thing. PAFs with some extra oomph.

[jimmyohio75]

Yeah. I think that's pretty much the gist of it. I'm not sure what circuits those amps are based off of. If you can get high gain out of them, then let your pickups provide the clarity via lower output. If they are medium gain, however, get some hotter pups to saturate it a bit more. There is a lot more to it than that, but I doubt you are concerned with the theory of it and just want the results. Can you name a reference tone that you're aiming for, and give us an idea about the circuit designs of the amps?

I see that one of them has a single KT88 output tube. I would imagine that you could get pretty good saturation from the amp alone if you turn it up. I think I'd go for a "typical" PAF, though there really isn't such a thing. PAFs were all over the map. There are a lot of guys who do a 'slightly hotter PAF' thing. I really like the Bare Knuckle Riff Raffs for that sort of thing. PAFs with some extra oomph.
I heard good things about Wolfetone Marshallheads. Might check them out.

[Guitarworks]

Hotter pups have more winds, which means inherently less treble. This would help get them muddy faster than lower output pups when driven hard. You can dial in a little more treble & mids or less bass on the amp to compensate. Just my 2 cents.

[Rod]

I heard good things about Wolfetone Marshallheads. Might check them out.
I have a pair 4 sale if you're interested,,Double creme..9.2K and 8.1....

[GuitarsFromMars]

Marshallheads are a little to the hotter side of PAF tone. I have been a WCR DB/GW guy since 2004, there are several winders who do a superb version of PAF.

Jim is a great winder. He is a very accessible guy by phone or mail.

[bynt]

I would go vintage hot at most. Have you considered Wade at motorcity?? I'd say his 2nd degree black belts, or Detroiters maybe. But if you e-mail him, he will recommend something for you.

That's what I was going to say. There are so many good pickups being made right now by small builders that are accessible and are quick to help out with this sort of thing. I've gotten quick responses from Tom Short (my next pickups) Bill Lawrence (fairly quick) Lindy Fralin (phone) and Lollar (though not straight from Jason, a really quick response nonetheless). Shoot 'em an email with your rig and what you're trying to accomplish and I'm betting you'll find your pickups soon!

[kaseri]

Go with the WCR pups.

[NashSG]

I had an SG Special that had Duncan Distortion pickups. Those pickups retain quite a bit of clarity even with heaps of gain. They sound good for an 80s thrash or metal sound. They might sound a bit thin in the low end or cold in a tele body, depending on the wood or bridge.

I've got a Custom 5 in my SG and like it quite well. It is a bit more scooped in the mids. Nice thing about that pickup is it sounds quite good if you roll the volume down. You can dial it in well. It's not as hot as the Duncan Distortion.

I've only used a Custom 5 in an SG and LP, but i know some guitars have the Custom 5 in a Super Strat setup, so it might work in a Tele body. You will see the Custom Custom more in a Strat setup with an alder body, as it is the same pickup with an alnico II magnet and is usually thought to be a bit warmer sounding pickup.

Never owned a guitar with a JB, but they are hit and miss. I've played with a guitarist that had one in a Les Paul that sounded aces and I have tried out some guitars in shops that have it stock and that mid hump sounds pretty ganky. They do seem to be a popular pickup in alder super strats and are pretty easy to find used if you wanted to try one.

I've heard a couple of guitars with WCR pickups, but haven't had any in mine.

[buddastrat]

Hotter pups have more winds, which means inherently less treble. This would help get them muddy faster than lower output pups when driven hard. You can dial in a little more treble & mids or less bass on the amp to compensate. Just my 2 cents.

Yes. They can end up sounding congested, and compressed. Most amp's have more than enough gain or drive for most anything. I love low output pickups when you crank the amp and really dig in. More individual style comes through, imo.

The one hot humbucker which seemed to break that trend is the Wolfgang pickups. Those are hot, but so bright and clear. I dunno how EVH/Peavey did it. Cool pickups.