Is making a guitar body nothing more than woodwork?

[fernmeister]

On another forum, in response to this question;

"Am I right in assuming a guitar body would not be a very good first woodworking project... "

A new "luthier" responded by saying,

"Actually it's a good project provided you take your time researching and planning accordingly. The only important bits are the neck pocket and bridge position for an accurate scale length and corect intonation. What goes on outside the centre 'plank' is primarily for aesthetics and balance (we're talking solid body electric)."

This new luthier, despite having only built 4-5 guitars and having no training in luthiery, is charging in the range of $2500 to $5000 for guitars. The justification seems to be lots of experience in woodworking.

I'm posting this here, because this seems to be the most knowledgeable forum on small guitar luthiers on the net. To me this new luthier is troublling. I've done setups on guitars for close to 20 years and had a go at some repair work. I've also done quite a bit of woodwork and carpentry. To me, whilst some skills overlap (the ability to use power tools, etc), other skills and knowledge are unique to luthiery.

So it worries me to see someone like this charging so much for guitars. I guess I'm old fashioned enough to worry about this bringing disrepute to the luthiery business. Am I overreacting?

[Scott Peterson]

Well, in reality it really is just about woodworking to *build* a guitar. Don't undercut the amount of skill that actually entails. It is a combination of art/science and access to some pretty exacting skills with your hands. And some nice tools.

The art of luthiery comes from choosing the correct woods and having the end result a greater sum than the parts. Getting the frets done to the level that would justify that kind of money is a tremendous skill; also cutting the nut. The finish is a huge part of it; and the electronics are a whole 'nother part of the receipe. You already noted the setup; no woodworking skills there - that takes some serious knowledge to really nail it.

As for *anyone* paying somebody up to $5000 to make them a guitar that only has "4 or 5" guitars under his belt, well, there is a sucker born every minute. IMHO, it takes more to understand the player's needs to deserve that kind of money.

But every luthier started somewhere. (Though I doubt they could get that kind of money early on!)

[george4908]

Anyone got a link to this guy's stuff?

As for woodworking chops, I can offer the following story. I've done some woodworking on and off since high school. Nothing terribly fancy -- end tables, cradles for my nieces and nephews, that sort of thing. A dovetailed hardwood cabinet for my Deluxe Reverb. Never built a guitar in all that time because I was intimidated by the high degree of precision that would be required to satisfy my own standards of what I wanted in a guitar. I didn't want to go through all that effort to build an unplayable shitplank.

Last year, I hooked up with my friend Norm. He's been a very serious woodworking hobbyist for years, building at a very high level -- ornate carvings and inlays, etc., he built half the furniture in his house and it's to a very high standard. He knew nothing about guitars, never played, but when he got a look at some of mine, and appreciated the craftsmanship, the light went off in our heads at the same time and we decided to each build a guitar together in his shop, starting with Teles. We figured that between my knowledge of guitars and his woodworking skills, we'd be able to pull this off.

My guitar was pretty simple -- slab of alder, no arm or tummy cuts, solid color, dot inlays, etc. Made some mistakes along the way, was able to fix most of them and keep going. Overall, it came out great -- it wouldn't fool anyone that it was CNC perfect, but most important, it sounds and plays well. It's a good guitar, I play it all the time and couldn't be happier. While I realize now that I could have done it by myself, there's no question that without Norm's assistance at a few key points, it wouldn't have come off nearly as well.

Norm's guitar was somewhat more involved -- bookmatched maple cap, tricolor sunburst finish, semi-hollow routs, arm and tummy cuts, plus little details like insetting the jack plate flush to the body. These were things that he had no hesitancy in tackling because he was fully confident in his ability to pull them off, whereas I kept mine as simple as possible so I wouldn't be throwing stumbling blocks in my own path. His guitar came out great, and yes, it was finished to a higher standard than mine. But my role in Norm's guitar was important, too. Woods, hardware, fret choices, etc., were my department. And not being a player, he had no intuitive feel for what a neck should feel like. So he'd carve and whittle a bit, hand it over to me, and I'd tell him where there was too much shoulder, where it needs to be rounder, etc.

I'm going to be starting my next one shortly, and it will be more complicated than my first. Meanwhile, Norm's hooked -- he's already completed six, including a carved top, setneck LP with binding and fancy inlays, and he's now building a guitar to his own design. He's getting deeper into what makes a guitar really good, including learning about tonewoods, electronics, and how to build to achieve a particular sound. (And he's taking guitar lessons!)

So let's see, where was I? If this guy you know has only built a handful of guitars, it is certainly possible they're great instruments -- as long as knows what makes a great guitar, as opposed to simply knowing how to be a great woodworker. It's not rocket science, but there is an accumulated wisdom that a builder ignores at his own peril. Or his customer's. Whether his guitars are worth the coin he's charging, well, try putting one on the used market and see how it holds up! Someone may be in for a surprise.

[Ian Anderson]

To add to what Scott said,

Woodworking is the easiest and a very small part part of building a guitar.

The internet has allowed these guys who have built a handful of guitars to put up a website and solicit work on the level of professionals. Without having to spend years working on vintage guitars, doing set ups, restorations, repairs, becoming a journeyman finisher, machinist, patternmaker, electronics expert, etc...

There is a maturity in this business as any other that comes from time, experience, and talent.

[BCR Greg]

Yeah, that pesky fretwork is CAKE compared to sanding the edges.

As if.

Building a guitar properly is giving life to a pile of components, enabling musician's to make the world a better place.

Woodworking is making chairs for grandma.

[erksin]

I've built two guitars myself - made both bodies and bought the rest of the parts.

My first was kind of Tele-ish - and the most frightening/difficult part of the project was aligning the neck pocket and determining the proper bridge placement. After measuring 27 times, I finally settled on the proper placement and wound up being too close to the neck by about 1/4". The guitar plays great and intonates fine (god bless adjustable saddles) - and unless you get right up on it you'd never know.

The second one I built was a chambered body 12-string. This time, I got the bridge placement about 1/8" too far from the neck.

I figure I'll get it perfect next time out...

The only thing I farmed out was the nut work, fret dress, and final set-up/intonation.

Go for it - it's really fun, and it's awesome to play an instrument you designed and made yourself.

[angelo]

I guess, unfortunately, that may be right.



If someone has their skills together, everyone would be talking about neck gap and fret work, finish and feel. A few "special" ones (even by luck) and an internet reputation might be made.


In the end, though, we'd like to think it is about finding "good" wood --- vibrant and alive. Crafting sweet instruments. How many great guitars have you played with some sloppy work and how many other "perfect" instruments sounded flat?


Great post and great topic.

In the end, you gotta play 'em.

[dot-dot-dot]

Originally posted by BCR Greg
Yeah, that pesky fretwork is CAKE compared to sanding the edges.

As if.

The quote is specifically about building a body though - I've not seen many guitars with frets on the body.

[Schroeder]

I would disagree with him that:

"What goes on outside the centre 'plank' is primarily for aesthetics and balance (we're talking solid body electric)."

In my experience, wood affects tone. Everythig affects everything right?

I don't think that the issue really BEGINS with new luthiers coming in and deminding too much money for guitars. The market would have corrected that problem and no one would be interested. I think that high prices for custom shop guitars by major manufacturers are creating niche markets for guys who can make similar instruments for less money and in less time.

Bottom line though, if someone is making a cruddy guitar that looks good but sounds bad and is set up poorly, they won't be receiving repeat business. In my opinion, the internet makes this a very small world.

[robmarch]

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
As for *anyone* paying somebody up to $5000 to make them a guitar that only has "4 or 5" guitars under his belt, well, there is a sucker born every minute. IMHO, it takes more to understand the player's needs to deserve that kind of money.

But every luthier started somewhere. (Though I doubt they could get that kind of money early on!)

I've been offered money in the range he mentioned for a fully custom guitar several times after people have checked out my last guitar and my current project. I told the people that I couldn't build them a guitar for that large sum of money in my current situation, and forwarded them on to people who would make great use of their several K. custom luthiers don't get rich building high end guitars.

lots of people view fully custom guitars as pieces of artwork as much as instruments, and are willing to pay for special and unique features. most of these high end custom guitars don't cost appreciably more than a factory gibson. I think they're a steal.

[Rob DiStefano]

Decades ago, I - along with my Dad (who scratch-built acoustics as well) - used to build guitars ... these dayze I assemble'em.

Before the guitar parts industry took off, you had to roll yer own or pay big prices for stock bodies and necks for solid body bolt-on neck gits. It's a huge chore to bandsaw and rout out a body and making a neck from scratch is not for amateurs. Aside from having the proper tooling, you need to have the proper smarts before you start measuring and cutting wood.

The advent of readily available (and cheap!) CNC'd bodies & necks totally eliminates the need for the DIY build-from-scratch method of guitar making. Unless yer going commercial or are nutz enuf to have that large a guitar making ego.

Since those scratch building dayze, I've cut out at least a few solid bodies. And every time I completed one in the raw I questioned my sanity (and ego) for even starting.

Anyhoo, that's my take on solid body guitar building and assembling - as always, YMMV.

[robmarch]

Originally posted by Fret Tech
The advent of readily available (and cheap!) CNC'd bodies & necks totally eliminates the need for the DIY build-from-scratch method of guitar making. Unless yer going commercial or are nutz enuf to have that large a guitar making ego.

assuming you're a bolt on guy, buying parts is definitely the most cost/labor effective way to go. through body or set neck people still have to roll their own, for the most part.

I'll admit that I was motivated as much (more) by "ego," or at least testing my skills, as I was wanting another guitar. Going through the building process really made me appreciate what goes into a guitar, and gave me a much more critical eye.

[davesee]

i apprentice with a small custom electric builder and i can tell you... it's not easy. although the body is probably the easiest part to create, the number of steps and detail and tools involved in making a basic strat is are enough to boggle the beginner's brain.

[fernmeister]

Interesting responses. I've been thinking a fair bit, since starting this thread. To me my discomfort arises from what I see as the difference between skill and craft.

Let me explain. Woodworking is intially about skill, but when you push to the highest levels of function and design, it rises above that, to the level of craft. For example, I can make a chair with my woodworking skills, but i do not have the craft to choose the right woods and work to the tight tolerances of the original shaker chairs. The differece is not just about looks or finish, but rather, lightness, balance and finally function. It takes a master craftsman to build a chair that is simultaneously so light and so strong.

Returning to guitars, I guess any competent woodworker could make a guitar body that looks good, because from one perspective the skills required are genric; cutting, routing, sanding, finishing. They could probably choose great looking woods and produce something that would look very impressive.

However, the craft is in making a body that performs the functions of a musical instrument, not just those of a decorative object. For example, the curve and carve of a body is not just an aesthetic thing, but also relates to the playability of the instrument. Same holds true for the layout and placement of controls. Moreover, the choice of woods and shape relates directly to both the tone and the balance and playability of an instrument. Finally, it goes without saying that an instruments nees to play in and keep tune.

So to me, guitarmaking is luthiery. You need good woodworking skills to be a luthier, but you also need a craftsman's attention to the act of playing guitar at the highest levels. I just can't see how one can short-cut this, or claim that it is an easy leap from woodwork to luthiery.

[robmarch]

leo fender is a great example.

a skilled woodworker can build a functional guitar, even one that sounds decent.

however, like the difference between the fender factory and the fender custom shop, there are certainly intangibles that can make the difference between a good guitar and a great one, and the pursuit of characterizing these differences is what I'd consider Luthiery, over woodworking.

[george4908]

>>So to me, guitarmaking is luthiery. You need good woodworking skills to be a luthier, but you also need a craftsman's attention to the act of playing guitar at the highest levels. I just can't see how one can short-cut this, or claim that it is an easy leap from woodwork to luthiery.<<

If you're talking about going from hobbyist woodworking to world class luthiery on the level of a Lentz, Benedetto or similar -- of course, you can't make that leap over night, and a lot of people won't ever make that leap no matter how many guitars they build for however many years. I know I won't.

But if you're talking about having decent, but not extroardinary woodworking skills, then going out and scratch building a decent guitar -- decent, not world beating -- yes, it can be done, people do it all the time. Good sounding, playable guitars.

The basics of building a functional instrument is not rocket science, and shouldn't intimidate someone with average woodworking skills. The difference between that and the top guys, well, that is rocket science because they're doing it at a very high level that mere mortals will struggle to attain.

Whether the new luthier who inspired this thread is quite at that level yet, I seriously doubt it, but also it's possible he's making very nice guitars. $7k nice? That's a different question entirely. I sure wouldn't pay it.

[scott]

Its possible to make a guitar with good woodworking skills if you have some knoledge of guitars. When I first saw the tittle of this thread I laughed out loud. You could say its a little more than just woodworking. There are so many little details and skills involved that I could write all night long and still not even scratch the surface. It took me more than 10 years and more than 100 guitars for me to get just where I am. When i look back now its rediculous that I even thought I knew anything after my first 10 guitars. I still feel like i know nothing sometimes. Especially since I got the CNC. I encourage anyone who thinks its easy to try to build one. It will be an eye opener for you no doubt.


www.heatleyguitars.com

[Lex Luthier]

A big can of worms has been opened here, huh? ;)

There is a builder whose guitars are highly revered here on this board who came from a furniture building background. He also has a vast understanding of what made old vintage guitars what they were. His guitars have a strong vintage vibe and are really sweet.

I have a buddy who had zero woodworking skills build a really sweet guitar on his first try. He is a great player and also did a lot of research before he built the guitar.

On the other hand, I recently checked out a $20k guitar from a builder with a fancy website that had a 400 piece inlay on the fingerboard, great workmanship, and it was a total turd as a guitar.

What makes a great guitar?

Let's look at a vintage Les Paul sunburst. Some of the workmanship on them would be roasted by guys here on this board if they were build by a boutique builder, but yet a lot of them sound like the voice of God when plugged in thru an amp. Same thing with a lot of vintage guitars. I wonder how much the guys building those guitars really knew about building them? They were probably assigned one or two tasks and did that all day long. You had housewives winding pickups. Look at Ted McCarty, the guy couldn't even play guitar, but yet he designed some really cool things like the ABR1, 335, and the korina guitars. The same with Leo Fender.

Something to think about...

[AJ Love]

I think that the level of custom guitar making has skyrocketed over the last decade or so...we are seeing better and better made guitars and the bar has been raised

when you see the level of guitars made by folks like Suhr, Lentz, John English and others it really boggles the mind...the same is true in the bass building world with builders like Sadowsky and Fodera

it takes years and years (decades really) to be able to make instruments with the playability and tone that these builders make....to me, thats what its all about: playability and tone. Looks are icing

[PlexiBreath]

The most important thing about being a world class luthier is playing skills.

After that it's woodworking skills.

A versitle, top knotch player with a very developed, highly trained ear, who is an expert wood worker, will make the best luthier because he/she will be able to adjust the design to perfection to meet his/her demanding playing skills, as well as have the ability to decern the best tone woods.

John Kelley Brown

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by PlexiBreath
The most important thing about being a world class luthier is playing skills.

After that it's woodworking skills.

A versitle, top knotch player with a very developed, highly trained ear, who is an expert wood worker, will make the best luthier because he/she will be able to adjust the design to perfection to meet his/her demanding playing skills, as well as have the ability to decern the best tone woods.

John Kelley Brown

I completely disagree.

Building "world class" guitars (or amps, for that matter) has nothing at all to do with guitar playing skills - it's all about understanding the materials to be used, and how to process them into works of sonic and visual art.

The better luthiers excel in craftsmanship, material knowledge and an understanding of precisely *what* is being built, and why, and for whom - it has nothing at all to do with the craftsperson's ability to actually play the instrument very to extremely well. It does help to be a guitarist that's at least beyond rudimentary playing skills, but even that's not necessary.

[PlexiBreath]

Well, then we'll agree to dissagree. I've played too many guitars that were beautifully crafted that were just dogs to play because the craftsman didn't know the demands of playing. Knobs and switches in weird places, nut slots so shallow the string pops out when bending whole steps from the first fret, the list could go on, but it's all down to the luthier know knowing the needs of the player. The best guitars I've played were made by luthiers who were great players in their own right.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by PlexiBreath
Well, then we'll agree to dissagree. I've played too many guitars that were beautifully crafted that were just dogs to play because the craftsman didn't know the demands of playing. Knobs and switches in weird places, nut slots so shallow the string pops out when bending whole steps from the first fret, the list could go on, but it's all down to the luthier know knowing the needs of the player. The best guitars I've played were made by luthiers who were great players in their own right.

No disagreement there - a luthier MUST undestand the basics of a guitar and the mechanics of playing ... he/she just doesn't need to be a virtuoso. Which is the essence of what I'd typed two post windows above.

I've owned at least several superb guitars (solid and acoustic) that were crafted by no-virtuoso players who were quintessential Master Luthiers in every sense of those two words. YMMV.

[Denyle_Guitars]

The simple answer is Yes, it's mostly just woodworking. But...

Even good woodworkers know that a project is 90% planning. And the rest is good tools. And in the case of guitars, specialty tools. You don't just start cutting wood and make it up as you go. Just like you don't apply a finish without first testing it. The project needs to be completely built in you're head and hopefully on paper before any wood is cut.

Then, there's wood selection and drying and all the other things already mentioned.

And Yes, you're first guitar can be a great one. No need to build a hundred before you get one right. If that were true, no one would ever do it.

And as for those master builders, I have the utmost respect for those guys and don't want to down play what they do, but much of the woodwork is done by CNC. That's the only way to be competitive and offer a consistent product. But then we're talking about two different things.

As for that guy with almost no experience charging $5k for a custom. Hey, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay.

[Rob DiStefano]

There is little if no art anymore in scratch replicating a Tele or Strat or u-name-it. A CNC'd body is extemely cost effective, and it's usually no big deal to modify one slightly to add a personal touch. Mucho dittos for the complimenting neck. There is no other reason to scratch build other than vanity, or ego, or simply to have the right to charge $3+K for a final product that, besides its wonderful intrinsic beauty and parentage, isn't gonna be *that* different from a guitar costing 5-10x less. I've been there, I've done that, that's just the bare reality of solid body guitars in the new millennium. We're amidst the Golden Age of Guitars thanx to the Pacific Rim - anyone who's in the solid body business (or for that matter, even lam semi and hollow body guitars, too) - y'all know that all too well. Yes, there are still wonderful *real* luthiers in the US and within the rest of the global village that can create a wonderful jazz box or flat top, but that's not what sells to the populace, or even what I'm talking about. YMMV.

[Ian Anderson]

Seems every builder preaches his method as the best whether he has built 10 guitars or thousands, whether he uses cnc machines, or bandsaws to a pencil line!

The truth is it's the person behind the tools, not the tools or methodology that matter in the end.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Ian Anderson
... The truth is it's the person behind the tools, not the tools or methodology that matter in the end.

Precisely.

[robmarch]

Originally posted by Denyle_Guitars
As for that guy with almost no experience charging $5k for a custom. Hey, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay.

that's true. and people are going to charge what they think their time is worth. even the small builders can put CNC or templates, etc., to work to reduce the cost of their building. Talk to them about a new neck and headstock shape on a new body shape where they can't use any of their specialized time saving tools, and the price will certainly go up.

there's no doubt that hand made or small builder guitars aren't compelling from purely a cost perspective. there are lots of pretty good guitars available for nearly nothing out there. sometimes the top of the scale seems ridiculous, because we're used to seeing it applied to essentially limited edition factory made guitars (gibson, fender, etc.) or for a limited edition finish or a signature model, or something.

people who buy hand made or small builder guitars are looking for something other than the best compromise between price and performance. and some people enjoy subsidizing a builder's gallery as one of their first pieces, just for bragging rights or just to support the art. and some just want something radically different, and are willing to pay someone to do it.

I'll stand by my statement that small builders aren't getting rich selling guitars, even the ones that seem to be selling them for large amounts of money.

I've experienced enough of the building process to begin to know my limitations, but the experts will be chasing their ultimate guitar forever as they narrow their focus on more minute details of construction.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by robmarch
...

I'll stand by my statement that small builders aren't getting rich selling guitars, even the ones that seem to be selling them for large amounts of money.

...

Yes, I agree - to "make it" as a viable luthier (who can pay the bills, and then some) you need equal amounts of craftsmanship, materials resoruces, marketing savvy, and - Luck. And even then, the buck$ ain't gonna be rolling in at yer feet, except in rare cases.

[tray999]

If you have basic woodworking skills you can make a good basic guitar. I know as I have done it a few times. If you want one of the best looking "built it yourself guitar kits" for the money then look here:

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/H/H6083.jpg

The Grizzly Tools Heirloom Guitar Kit is a great looking. But without some woodworking skills you are going to have a hard time getting a playable finished product.

I have recently ordered one of their kits, so I will let the board know when I have a finished product.

Jim

Grizzly Tools Link:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=H6083

[Saul Koll]

Is making a guitar body nothing more than woodwork?
I suppose.
In the same way that Michaelangelo's David is nothing more than stone work and the mono Lisa is nothing more than paintwork! That was my first thought when I read the caption. But then I paused and thought about it.

There are so many levels to it. On the most fundamental level, a good carpenter can make a good working guitar body. Someone who can work to a certain tolerance with woodworking tools and has a good plan can probably make something functional. It might even look good if he has finishing experience. With guidance even someone who is not a carpenter can do it. I have mentored highschool seniors with no previous woodworking experience and damn if they didn't make killer guitars! Of course there are things that could have been better all over their instruments, but what a fun thing to do! What a joy to start with raw materials and after a certain amount of time, you get to play it and show it off.
Those of us lucky enough to make a living doing this stuff should remember how we started.
Today we are in an incredibly rich time for guitar making. There are all kinds of supply houses, books, guitarmaker guilds, Luthiery schools, videos, websites, etc. that just were not around twenty or even ten years ago. Also there has been a shift from the "shroud of secrecy" that existed before- to almost too much information.
If someone wanted to get a start in guitar making, it is diffucult to figure out where to begin to look! There is just so much.
It is also getting better. The level of craftsmanship is incredibly high. The expectations of the players are even higher. Everything changes all the time. The competition is ferocious, and at the same time incredibly friendly. From one book (Sloan's, maybe Kamimoto's too) twenty five or so years ago, to today where there are a half dozen major suppliers of luthier parts and supplies, and in one catalog alone, five full pages of books and videos on or about guitar stuff. It is amazing. We didn't even use cyanoacrylate glues back then! CAD?CNC?graphite composites? compound radius? cryogenics?(!)buzzy Feiten? uvcure? Plek?stainless frets?holy phug!
It is late and I am rambling.

Back to the question. Is it nothing more than woodwork?
It can be a lot more of course, but it can also be just that. Yeah, and that is the beauty of it.

[Neil Morgan]

Hi I'm new here and thought it would be a good idea to browse through previous threads to get up to speed. You can imagine my surprise to find myself being subject of a thread - yes I am the person being quoted at the beginning.

Whilst I understand Frenmeisters concerns the quote is a little out of context. The original poster had stated in previous questions that they were going to buy a neck off eBay and build themselves a body, they admitted to having very little in the way of woodworking skills and just wanted to 'have a go', probably by tracing around an existing guitar. Perhaps I could have worded it better but my point to them was that it didn't matter if they were a little off in reproducing the outline of the body, the part where they had to precise was the neck pocket/bridge position. We see so many designs that are derivatives of old classics with just a nip or tuck to make them a little different or so they don't infringe copyrights, how could it hurt if they were a 1/4" short on the upper horn or the body was a little more 'waisted' than the original he copied.

As for me, well it's true I've only built an handful of guitars but I have been a prolific woodworker for 25 years, owned my own motorcycle racing engineering shop (with a full machine shop), Custom painted Hot Rods and Racing cars/Bikes/Helmets and work in the aviation industry. I didn't just go into the shed and start banging out guitars, I spent several years researching on line, reading books and talking to as many top luthiers as I could. I also spent many months setting up my small shop, practicing techniques, building jigs and acquiring the relevant materials. I also begged, borrowed and stole (well bought) as many top flight guitars as I could. I disassembled them, measured them and scrutinized every square millimeter.

My original intention was to build myself a few guitars and leave it at that but I had such a positive response and several enquires that I thought maybe there could be more to this. However they had to be right so I took the originals to as many local pro level players as I could to get as much feedback as I could so they didn't just look the part , they sounded and felt right. I do play and have done setups for years but I am nowhere near Pro level as a player so when they were happy I thought it safe to proceed.

This was my first guitar btw.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/xlr8shun/Tele/f6a666ce.jpg

One piece Brazilian Mahogany body with (Western) Curly Maple cap and rippled ivoroid binding.

Birdseye Maple neck with Gabon Ebony fingerboard, Abalone dots and GraphTech nut.

Gotoh tuners and roller string tree, Bigsby, Bareknuckle pickups (neck HB has a curly maple ring). The neck plate and control plate are flush with the body.


I have never claimed that there is "an easy leap from woodwork to luthiery" and everyday I strive to learn and improve. There will always be more to learn or to improve on, no product is ever perfect but I am doing my damnedest to be the best I can.

As for the prices, the exchange rate flatters to deceive. My guitars are significantly cheaper (as you'd expect) by some $1500 - $2000 than a basic (is there such a thing?) Tyler, Anderson, Suhr etc. here in the UK .

I finished my first guitar in March this year, since then I've sold six - all to customers who've been to the workshop and played the guitars at length. They have been updated with their guitars progress and all were offered a full money back guarantee if the guitar did not meet or exceed their expectations.

Sorry to go on, especially for a first post, but I did feel frustrated when I read this topic.

Regards,

Neil

[scott]

After reading Sauls post I remembered FINISHING!!
Oh my Gawd..........the endless batttle of finishing!!
I swear to god I have bald spots on my head from this. Just when you think the project is done you have to start staining and spraying. It took me YEARS to perfect the gloss finish. There are books that can help but only expierience will give you the skills to consistently pull off good finishes. Ive stripped and refinished more guitars than I am willing to tell about. An embarasing amount actually. Some guitars more than once. Then if you are lucky enough to pull of the spray work there is wet sanding and buffing. And dont think I havent buffed thru a burst or two in my time. If that happens......foget about it...start over. Arggggg. Man I wish guitar building was nothing more than woodworking. In my dreams


www.heatleyguitars.com

[sanhozay]

If you got the goods then punch your weight - that's what I say.

These people who build instruments for food and water and, perhaps, a paragraph of notoriety, have my deepest respects.

I'm in awe of the whole fricken process! Hell, it took me ten years before I had the balls to do my own truss rod adjustments. {...That sounded kinda dirty...}

[r9player]

Hey XLR8 Nice looking guitar.
I like the touch on the maple pick up ring.
The flush bridge is neat but I wonder about that since the idea in a tele bridge ... as much and as good of a possible contact with the body. Putting it flush introduces an extra complexity to achieving that?
In the end is that just cosmetic or do you think it improved the sound?

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by scott
After reading Sauls post I remembered FINISHING!!
Oh my Gawd..........the endless batttle of finishing!!
I swear to god I have bald spots on my head from this. Just when you think the project is done you have to start staining and spraying. It took me YEARS to perfect the gloss finish. There are books that can help but only expierience will give you the skills to consistently pull off good finishes. Ive stripped and refinished more guitars than I am willing to tell about. An embarasing amount actually. Some guitars more than once. Then if you are lucky enough to pull of the spray work there is wet sanding and buffing. And dont think I havent buffed thru a burst or two in my time. If that happens......foget about it...start over. Arggggg. Man I wish guitar building was nothing more than woodworking. In my dreams


www.heatleyguitars.com

Holy $h!t can I relate! This is what I mean when I say the woodworking is the easy part. It's a lifetime quest to be a good finisher. Thats why alot of guys outsource finishing!

[Neil Morgan]

Originally posted by r9player
Hey XLR8 Nice looking guitar.
I like the touch on the maple pick up ring.
The flush bridge is neat but I wonder about that since the idea in a tele bridge ... as much and as good of a possible contact with the body. Putting it flush introduces an extra complexity to achieving that?
In the end is that just cosmetic or do you think it improved the sound?

Hi Pai,


The bridge isn't flush just the neck attachment plate and the control plate, the neck plate because it affects the feel and playability of the guitar and the control plate because, to me, it looks nicer on a non scratch plate guitar.


Neil

[r9player]

Sorry misread that! my bad.

[Terry McInturff]

There are many good comments to be found in this thread. Because of time constraints, I cannot comment as much as I would like to do.

But I would like to mention that I know that I will NEVER know everything that there is to know about guitars, even a simple solidbody electric. In my past, Ive been a CF Martin repair center, authorised Gibson, Fender, etc ad nauseum.

I have had the honor of restoring innumerable vintage pieces, including my favorites, original Lloyd Loar era members of the mandolin family. In preparation for an NPR interview I was asked to estimate how many stringed instruments I have worked on. My estimate is that the number is slightly over 30,000.

Ive probably installed around 100,000 strings or so. Why do I still screw that up on occassion? :) Duhh...

I also have a few thousand guitars out there with my name on them.

So...I guess that I do know my share about guitars. But heaven forbid that I ever start to think that I have learned anywhere close to everything. The guitars that I have made in the past 14 months are, demonstrably, the best guitars that I have ever made. If I am so lucky, I hope that the guitars that I make next year will "best" my current best.

But there is SO much to learn, and even to pioneer, that I am sure that I will never be bored with my career.

I suppose that one thing that I measure my progress by is the consistency at which I can "hear" a guitar in my "musical imagination", choose the materials and set to work...and to hear that exact sound emanate from the speakers. Until I was able to do that with regularity (and we are talking new designs) I was not really able to rest much at all.

The beat goes on.

[Terry McInturff]

I couldn't resist plugging back in here to say that I dig Sauls' post above.

Saul, you sound like a "fellow traveler"! :) Been at it since the 70's, eh?

Long may you run, my friend. Congratulations on your career. You are a survivor and I really, really respect that.

How about those Don Teeter books, Saul? Were they the $#@#@ or what? What a clever man. Sure, the art has come a long way since, but I really respect those like Don who helped to point the way for guys like me and Saul who were full-time back in the 70's.

If it had not been for Don's book "The Acoustic Guitar-Maintainence and Repair" Vols 1 and 2 (1974), I may not have been hipped to dial calipers for goodness-knows how long. As recently as 10 years ago this important, now basic tool was not a common sight in a guitar shop!

Saul mentions the use of cyano. I still remember the guilt that I felt when I started to use it (after harmless experimentation) on "the real thing" ie, customer's guitars and my own early TCM fretwork.

I remember thinking "it works, but it is called 'Crazy Glue' or 'Super Glue' and that has no class. There is a real 'K-Tel' vibe about this stuff..but it works....for a couple of things."

Of course, the early cyano glues had a long way to go. There were no practical accelerators for it at first...and they did not work on wood very well. I remember that Krazy Glue marketed a sort of accelerator...it was like a stick of chalk....that you were supposed to rub on the wooden surfaces prior to gluing. It was baking soda in stick form, and lowered the ph of the bonding surfaces.

I would not trade those 70's days for ANYTHING. It was a period during which "modern" luthierie was just coming into being.

I think that I'll start a new thread about that. I hope that Saul will contribute!

Terry McInturff

[DamianP]

My background is similar to neils(xlr8).

I have been through a similar learning process and my first effort looks like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/mouldynudger/probettguitars/Img_0065.jpg

My intention was to make a guitar which had particular specs ergonomically and certain tonal responses that I desired. I ended up imagining a sort of Roy Buchannan / Dickey Betts hybrid.

I set to work and came up with a design that I thought would achieve what I wanted then got out the old penknife and butchered a few old logs and came up with a result that is exactly what I wanted.
It is also the best guitar I have ever played, (although possibly not the best guitar you have ever played).

So while there is a lot more to making a guitar than just rough carpentry, I would say that with the right skillset and a willingness to research and learn, then it is entirely possible to make a very good guitar indeed without any `experience`. Although without a doubt the more you make the better they`d become.

My second guitar is in progress now. This time it`s a Bill Kirchen / Brian Setzer hybrid. ( I find having a tonal goal to aim for to be particularly usefull although at this stage my aim is more of a partially educated potshot than a guaranteed bullseye):)

,Damian.

[DamianP]

Hi Neil (xlr8)
Nice guitar, well done.

I mentioned above that we have similar backgrounds.

I ran my own tuning and dyno shop for 5 years till 2000 and spent a while mechanicing for various also ran racers (one or two good ones too)

Also spent a couple of years with British Aerospace in Weybridge.

You?

,Damian.

[Terry McInturff]

Damien and Neil,

Rock on. Those guitars look great. Keep the faith.
Great work!!
Terry McInturff

[DamianP]

Thank you Terry.
Encouragement is always welcome, especially from someone like yourself.

I harbour a small dream of making guitars for a living, although I am aware of being only at the beginning of a long and potentially rocky road.

Till then I`m having fun learning.

[Saul Koll]

Thanks Terry. I started a little later, in the early 80's at least professionally. (the gray hair is from my daughters.) I remember those weird accelerator sticks! Horrible! I forgot about Teeter! Now there was some fancy frettin'!
I just thought of more. Do you remember Brosnac's books? Now there is some crude stuff! but the beauty of it was that it did not look that different than what I was doing in my garage. It made me think that if this is what the professionals do, then I'm in there! (I guess There were others too. Overholtzer, David Russel Young, Wade, etc. The first I checked out were Sloan's.)
I remember visiting the Nashville Gibson plant in about '87 and was amazed again at how similar it all was. At least in technique. (Scale obviously was incomparable.) Their tools were the same I used, but just more heavy duty.
I did not come through any kind of real apprentice system where I got to see "how it was done", so these kinds of discoveries made me feel like I was on the right track.
Ulitmately it boils down to design/wood/glue/ and skill. (And as Scott said, finish!)

mouldy nudger's quote: "Till then I`m having fun learning." is key.

I'm still learning and having fun.

[george4908]

mouldynudger wrote:
>>I have been through a similar learning process and my first effort looks like this: [pic snipped]

Beautiful guitar. Must be something about goldtop Teles that appeals to the first time builder. Here's mine:

http://community.webshots.com/album/215430617MNzcSd

[Neil Morgan]

Damien and Terry, thanks for the kind words. As Damien said having fun is what it's all about, and I love every minute although my wife thinks I've become some sort of obsessive compulsive as I eat, sleep and breathe this obsession.


Cracking looking guitar you have there Damien, Gold just screams 'vintage'. I'm currently with BA at Heathrow btw. I see you're in Surrey not to far from me in Wokingham, Berkshire.


Neil

[arriba]

Originally posted by Ian Anderson
To add to what Scott said,

Woodworking is the easiest and a very small part part of building a guitar.

The internet has allowed these guys who have built a handful of guitars to put up a website and solicit work on the level of professionals. Without having to spend years working on vintage guitars, doing set ups, restorations, repairs, becoming a journeyman finisher, machinist, patternmaker, electronics expert, etc...

There is a maturity in this business as any other that comes from time, experience, and talent.

Ian, you are absolutely right!!!

[Vendelcrow]

Hi Saul / Terry,

I'm new to this forum, but I also started out with guitars in the late 70:s. I still have the Donald Brosnac book stashed in the basement somewhere, together with Guitar Players magazine from the mid 70:s to mid 80:s.

I was down in the basement a couple of days ago to look through all the guitar related litterature, and found catalogs from Luthiers Mercantile from the early-mid 80:s (I dig those prices), and Touchstone Tonewoods in UK.

I stopped building guitars in 86 due to sickness, but now I'm back again in a small scale (a lot of catching up to do, and this forum is a real gold-mine).

What really started it for me in the 80:s was a serie of articles by Stephen Delft in the UK music magazine "International Musician", where he was building an electric guitar from start to finish (and it was heads and shoulders above the Donald B book).
Does any of this forums UK members remember it.

Peace
Vendelcrow