A thought - Axe Fx sounds TOO perfect?!

[Earl Mobile]

i own my axe fx for nearly a year now and i am amazed by it every day.

but i am somehow missing something. i play a lot of stoner rock with my friends and if you are familiar with the genre, you know that there ist a lot of "dirt" in the sounds.

by "dirt" i mean that raw sound of an miced amp and the air between it.

when i record my axe into my (fireface 400) interface, it soundw great - great like a perfectly produced guitar track on an CD. and thats the point.

its hard to describe, i am missing the analog dirt, or call it "air" in the sound. i bet if i get me an atomic FRFR and mic it properly, i can achive that sounds i want, but i can´t because i am living in a small apartment with neigbours.

i hope you understand what i mean. do you have some ideas to get this sound just with direct to my interface? are the maybe some VSTs which can put some dirt or air in the sound afterwards?

cheers,
dan

[marshall2553]

Have you tried any of the Redwire farfield IRs for some added air?

[robertkoa]

All you have to do is Mic one of your studio monitors near the woofer and mix it in on another track.

It can even be recorded at low volume and by moving the Mic you'll get various amounts of time smearing and phase shifting and other "artifacts" that when mixed in to the "original" direct track will provide some or much of what you seek.

You can even mute all your tracks and play back just the guitar track you want and mic it ( even temporarily changing playback EQ if you want to "print" the re-recorded guitar track and mix it in .

It can also be done while you're recording the guitar track to create low volume feedback and resonance effects with the guitar real close to the speaker while it's being mic'ed while it's recorded direct on another track.

Disclaimer: I don't own an Axe Fx ( at least , yet ) but have definitely used the above techniques to add realism , and or beef up tracks recorded direct and/ or at low volume, add resonance and low volume feedback etc.

[Ben R]

its hard to describe, i am missing the analog dirt, or call it "air" in the sound. i bet if i get me an atomic FRFR and mic it properly, i can achive that sounds i want, but i can´t because i am living in a small apartment with neigbours.

Be careful (or think about it) when doing this. Any FRFR speaker system (including the atomics) has a tweeter, which is usually in a separate area of the speaker cabinet from the woofer. So, where do you put the mic? If you put it in front of the woofer, you miss the sound that the tweeter puts out and will lose your high end. If you put it in front of the tweeter, you miss the sound that the woofer puts out, which pretty much means losing everything except for your high end. Your only option is to figure out where each one is and then try to place it somewhere in between where the mic can hear both. And, the only way to accomplish this is to pull the microphone back away from the cabinet. This, of course will introduce all kinds of room noise and possible feedback into the equation. Personally, I would try to do things to your patches to make them sound more raw. A microphone is only going to hear what your speaker is already putting out, anyway. I'm not sure that the concept of mic'ing your FRFR speaker will accomplish what you want in the first place.

[GuitarTone]

"A thought - Axe Fx sounds TOO perfect?"

Interesting observation...

Don't worry, no one will understand what you're talking about.

[Ben R]

^^^^^ And, what's that supposed to mean?

[GuitarTone]

^^^^^ And, what's that supposed to mean?

It means everyone will now attempt to tell Earl Mobile how to fix something that cannot be fixed...it's that missing 10%, the difference between a mic'd tube amp and a modeller.

But it's not the end of the world, it's only 10%.

[burningyen]

Can you post an example from youtube or something that shows what this dirt or air sounds like?

[GuitarTone]

Can you post an example from youtube or something that shows what this dirt or air sounds like?

Watch your "Pulse" DVD, you'll hear what it sounds like. :)
Or, listen to the solo on "Dogs" at 5:40.

[Earl Mobile]

Can you post an example from youtube or something that shows what this dirt or air sounds like?

try mogwai - I Love You, I'm Going To Blow Up Your School

http://fliiby.com/file/256311/kz2jd41bgg.html

especially the end where it gets distorted.

[Scott Peterson]

It is what you make it. Nothing more, nothing less. The Axe_FX will not hold you back or cloud what you want to create with it, and I back that up with 3 years using it. You want it perfect? It does it. You have to make it do that though.

Guitartone has a bug on his butt about the Axe-FX and has for years, yet he's still never once used one. So his opinion on it and all things related to the Axe-FX are limited to third hand opinions. Don't let him rile anyone up.

[GuitarTone]

Guitartone has a bug on his butt about the Axe-FX and has for years, yet he's still never once used one. So his opinion on it and all things related to the Axe-FX are limited to third hand opinions. Don't let him rile anyone up.

Let them make up their own minds, no need for you to control/influence their thoughts about me.
You're not on some higher level than I am, Scott, you think you are, but you're not.

[burningyen]

try mogwai - I Love You, I'm Going To Blow Up Your School

http://fliiby.com/file/256311/kz2jd41bgg.html

especially the end where it gets distorted.
Wow, great song and great production! I don't hear anything in the guitars that you couldn't get very close to with a modeler and careful tweaking. I think the "air" you're hearing is mostly well-chosen reverb and the "dirt" is some kind of wah/filter.

[groovadelic]

If you're using an Axefx to constantly pin down an analog rig, be prepared for a lot of frustration. That is the mistake I made - constantly being disappointed and forever tweaking. If I learned anything the year or so I played through one - use it for what it is... Try not to use it to nail the sound of a traditional analog rig. There is so much more to appreciate about the Axefx if you sort of let go of that mind set. Ultimately for me, I came to the realization that I'm a traditional rig guy and no matter what, I'd always be listening for whether the Axefx could capture the nuances of a trad rig. As you mentioned, you even can start to be disappointed that it sounds too "perfect.".

[randombastage]

Let them make up their own minds, no need for you to control/influence their thoughts about me.
You're not on some higher level than I am, Scott, you think you are, but you're not.

Actually if he has an AxeFX and you don't he certainly is more qualified than you to offer advice on how it sounds and how to get different sounds out of it. You can call it a higher level or just the difference between his informed, experienced opinion and your second hand observations based on youtube audio...

That distinction is worth mentioning to people reading this thread who have questions about the AxeFx.

[Scott Peterson]

Let them make up their own minds, no need for you to control/influence their thoughts about me.
You're not on some higher level than I am, Scott, you think you are, but you're not.

I only post about gear I own, use or have experience with.

You post about gear as IF you own, use or have experience with it... yet often you do not. Admitted by yourself over and over.

I don't think I am on 'some higher level' than you Lance; you are 100% correct I am not on any different 'level' than you (whatever that means or doesn't mean). I just do not talk out of school about gear. You most assuredly do talk out of school about any gear that you feel is too expensive. It's an important distinction.

[Gasp100]

Maybe the op could introduce some outboard gear to "dirty" up the signal chain? There are tons of things you could try like lower level tube based compressors, EQ's, preamps. Maybe even some type of stomp boxes, etc...
Personally I think you're just not digging deep enough in the unit itself by using third party cabs and such as suggested, but it has a movable FX loop that you could introduce more stuff to add what you are missing.
In general the AxeFX is a signal chain:
pedals + amp + cab + post FX; I would approach it just like a traditional rig.

[RayRay]

Let them make up their own minds, no need for you to control/influence their thoughts about me.
You're not on some higher level than I am, Scott, you think you are, but you're not.

Really? Like when you were debating the living cr@p out of mouzer for returning his HD after he gave a very objective review?

I forget... did you own a HD500 at that time or just heard clips online? Oh yeah... I remember now.

You really didn't seem content to let him make up his own mind then. But I'm glad you've changed your philosophy.

I only post about gear I own, use or have experience with.

You post about gear as IF you own, use or have experience with it... yet often you do not. Admitted by yourself over and over.

I don't think I am on 'some higher level' than you Lance; you are 100% correct I am not on any different 'level' than you (whatever that means or doesn't mean). I just do not talk out of school about gear. You most assuredly do talk out of school about any gear that you feel is too expensive. It's an important distinction.

Exactly.

[jrjones]

Axe Fx sound TOO perfect?!

what's the problem? lol I would think that would be a good problem...

[Ben R]

I think that Earl Mobile needs a "suck" effect block added to the Axe Fx. Cliff?

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/ivorycj/Far%20Side/suck_button.jpg

[Den]

I made up "my own mind" many ridiculous posts ago.

[GuitarTone]

I only post about gear I own, use or have experience with.

You post about gear as IF you own, use or have experience with it... yet often you do not. Admitted by yourself over and over.

I don't think I am on 'some higher level' than you Lance; you are 100% correct I am not on any different 'level' than you (whatever that means or doesn't mean). I just do not talk out of school about gear. You most assuredly do talk out of school about any gear that you feel is too expensive. It's an important distinction.

You've posted a 1000 clips here for us to listen to, and each time asked what we think...correct?
I sit in a music store listening to brilliant guitarists playing through all sorts of gear, live, not compressed internet sound clips, yet I'm not allowed to make an assessment of the gear I'm listening to?

Seems kind of unfair don't you think?

[GuitarTone]

did you own a HD500 at that time or just heard clips online?



Like I told Scott a few hundred posts ago, I've been playing and recording Pods for 11 years, I can listen to HD clips on the internet and assess the gear I'm listening to, that's how good my ears are.

And guess what, I was 100% correct, the HD is as good as I thought it was just by listening to the clips that were posted here and on Youtube.

[re-animator]

i think the OP is talking about the grungey, lo-fi nature of the music he's trying to make. it's not a big leap to think a high-end digital processor wouldn't be the best tool to come up with that kind of stuff.

[mouzer]

Like I told Scott a few hundred posts ago, I've been playing and recording Pods for 11 years, I can listen to HD clips on the internet and assess the gear I'm listening to, that's how good my ears are.

And guess what, I was 100% correct, the HD is as good as I thought it was just by listening to the clips that were posted here and on Youtube.

Dude, you can't be serious...? You can assess gear properly by listening to clips on Youtube?

No disrespect, but do you realize how laughable that sounds? If you were on the market for a new HDTV or surround sound system, could you judge the quality based on Youtube clips too? If you were on the market for a new car, would you buy one based on someone else's subjective observation? If someone were to ask you where to go for a good steak, would you suggest Outback Steakhouse because it looks good in the commercials?

The whole notion of being able to 'judge' gear (or anything else) without putting your hands on it is ludicrous. You have to turn the knobs, you have to play through it to have a tactile sense of what you're working with. Just because you say you've been 'recording pods for 11 years' doesn't make you an authority on gear you have never used for yourself. I've been recording pods (and mic'd amps, and drums, and vocals, and burps, and farts) for right around the same amount of time. Under no circumstances do I claim to be an expert in what's good or bad, but I do know what I do and don't like.

I sit in a music store listening to brilliant guitarists playing through all sorts of gear, live, not compressed internet sound clips, yet I'm not allowed to make an assessment of the gear I'm listening to?

Seems kind of unfair don't you think?

You know what I think is unfair, is that when an uninformed person comes to this forum in search of information in order to make an educated decision about a big purchase, and sees a multitude of posts filled with misinformation and opinions stated as fact, from a user who has never even personally used the gear in question. I also found it unfair when you gave me grief in other threads, when I was attempting to A/B the various modelers. RayRay apparently noticed this too, so I must not be crazy.

[mouzer]

Sigh-

In a more on-topic post, I do see where the OP comes off saying the AxeFX can be "too perfect". The Axe seems to have a really wide frequency range. On top of that, the amp models are 'perfected' in the sense that the Plexis don't wart out when you're really pushing them, or that there aren't inharmonic ghost notes. However, I do think that the air and dirt that OP is looking for can be achieved using the Axe, with some EQ/Filters and maybe some Tape dist at the end of the chain.

[Scott Peterson]

You've posted a 1000 clips here for us to listen to, and each time asked what we think...correct?
I sit in a music store listening to brilliant guitarists playing through all sorts of gear, live, not compressed internet sound clips, yet I'm not allowed to make an assessment of the gear I'm listening to?

Seems kind of unfair don't you think?

It's not 'unfair' by any stretch. Lance, you really do yourself a disservice with posts like this.

When I post clips of MY playing that I recorded with MY gear, I am looking to balance what I hear against what folks in the rest of the world hear. I take their comments - the good, the bad, the indifferent - and weigh them carefully to see how I can better use my gear to create what I hear in my head, and to check my ballast against popular opinions of other fellow musicians.

In no way to I 'make an assessment of the gear' that I hear from other people's clips or even hearing other guys play gear. Clips allow me to hear the possibilities of that gear in that given musicians hands. Period.

I don't pretend to 'know' gear I have not used myself.

Frankly Lance, it's insulting to guys that are out here trying to keep it real and speak only about gear they have first hand knowledge of when they are 'reviewing' it when they read stuff like you just posted. How many Axe-FX threads have you posted on over the years, yet you have never heard or seen or laid hands on one personally in your life? And what are the nature of your posts in those threads?

I'll call you on this every time you want to front your opinions good or bad on gear. You seem to despise anything you deem 'too expensive' and adore anything you want to champion. Sorry to say, but a lot of the more expensive gear you seem to have a bug on rear about also delivers great value for their price tag. Just because some given piece of gear costs more than you are comfortable with does not mean it gives you the right to slam it or the folks that can afford it.

You don't have to agree with me, and I know you will not. But keep your opinions to things you've actually put your hands on and worked with in context of making music one way or another. Casting aspersions and changing your back-story ("I sit in a music store listening to brilliant guitarists playing through all sorts of gear, live, not compressed internet sound clips" in one thread vs. "I can tell from listening to YouTube videos" on another thread (on the same day)) makes you look ridiculous. You are better than all this Lance. You've got a lot to share without all this negative energy you put out. Stick to what you know, talk it up to the moon. But talk about stuff you've laid your own hands on.

[jrockbridge]

All you have to do is Mic one of your studio monitors near the woofer and mix it in on another track.

It can even be recorded at low volume and by moving the Mic you'll get various amounts of time smearing and phase shifting and other "artifacts" that when mixed in to the "original" direct track will provide some or much of what you seek.

You can even mute all your tracks and play back just the guitar track you want and mic it ( even temporarily changing playback EQ if you want the n "print" the re-recorded guitar track and mix it in .

It can also be done while you're recording the guitar track to create low volume feedback and resonance effects with the guitar real close to the speaker while it's being mic'ed while it's recorded direct on another track.

I did an experiment today adding a mic'd iso cab to one side of my modeler signal chain with an eq right before the recorder. It added a dimension of realism. Based on what you posted above, I'm sure this comes as no surprise to you. But, I was very surprised! This is going to work out great for my purposes! :aok

[Scott Peterson]

Sigh-

In a more on-topic post, I do see where the OP comes off saying the AxeFX can be "too perfect". The Axe seems to have a really wide frequency range. On top of that, the amp models are 'perfected' in the sense that the Plexis don't wart out when you're really pushing them, or that there aren't inharmonic ghost notes. However, I do think that the air and dirt that OP is looking for can be achieved using the Axe, with some EQ/Filters and maybe some Tape dist at the end of the chain.

Also on topic; the Axe-FX can do the things the OP wants, but it is indeed an open palette - he has to create those things with the tools at hand.

There are a lot of ways to do what the OP is discussing; which makes a simple answer hard to offer IMHO.

It's also fun to experiment in the box by doing things 'wrong' like putting a fuzz pedal after your cabinet block. If you did that as a sidechain or in parallel, I'd bet you could add all sorts of cool 'noise' to your tone.