PDA

View Full Version : Best amp for ACDC tone at reasonable volume


fender1977
11-22-2010, 07:39 AM
How can I get great ACDC tones at a reasonable volume for recording? i have a JTM45 but pretty loud before it starts to break up. I'm not talking about pedals either, i'd like it to come from amp

Dr. Tweedbucket
11-22-2010, 07:43 AM
2061X ... it's still pretty loud, but you get some crunch earlier than a JTM45.

Ugh
11-22-2010, 07:45 AM
How 'bout a Reinhardt 18 with powerscaling?

andrekp
11-22-2010, 07:45 AM
Try one of the Marshall 18 watts, the 1974x or the 2061. Crank them up just into the breakup zone. They are still damn loud, but you get that tone (which is fairly clean really).

You really aren't going to get that much (perceived) quieter than the JTM45 until you go with completely different kinds of amps (like single ended amps) that are even less likely to really get the AC/DC tone.

You'll get closer with an attenuator on a JTM45 or 18watt than you will with an SE amp, I think.

Flameout12
11-22-2010, 07:52 AM
Looks like you already have the amp. Can you afford an Aracom Attenuator? Those get great comments on here.

solitaire
11-22-2010, 08:02 AM
2061X ... it's still pretty loud, but you get some crunch earlier than a JTM45.I would agree with this suggestion. Running it into the matching 212 it's about half as loud as the real thing. EL84s in these so maybe you want to tweak the amp a little differently, or go with more bottom heavy speakers, to change the focus down slightly. But then AC/DC have a pretty bright sound for starters, so shouldn't be too far off.

fender1977
11-22-2010, 08:06 AM
Thanks for the suggestions guys!!!

indeedido
11-22-2010, 08:20 AM
If anyone ever solves that mystery, they'll be billionare's. I just don't think you can authentically get that kind of tone at low volumes. We can lie to ourselves, but it is a product of moving air.

Gino*
11-22-2010, 09:38 AM
If anyone ever solves that mystery, they'll be billionare's. I just don't think you can authentically get that kind of tone at low volumes. We can lie to ourselves, but it is a product of moving air.

I agree 100%. No matter what you do it comes down to physics.

Plus, unless you're talking live, (and even then there's an element of "studio magic"), what we're hearing on the recording has been mixed. And even live-live, Angus has an old JMP backstage in an iso box so there's still an element of "magic" or whatever you want to call it.

Recreating any "driving" tone has to involve a degree of volume. Even a 5 watt 1x8 is much too loud for an apartment.

Most Marshalls should get you in the ballpark (JTM, 1974, even JCM 800). Attenuators help, but aren't the missing link some people make them out to be.

And there's always the "Malcolm factor". Try listening with headphones and pan hard left and hard right. Even if you get the tones, you probably won't get the full effect just due to the fact that it's two guitars and you're basing some of your impression of what AC/DC tone is on hearing both together, so on your own it may sound not quite there, even if you're nailing the tone.
The beginning of You Shook Me for example. On the left, Malcolm is just lightly strumming G and D, but it fills out what's happening on the right, which sounds weak by itself and not what we're used to after hearing it together a million times.

kelly dell
11-22-2010, 10:09 AM
post phase inverter Master volume mod. cost you a couple hundred tops and then you can get that sound at any volume.


JTM 45`s get AC/DC sound killer, you already have the right amp just get the mod you wont look back.

Rick360
11-22-2010, 10:14 AM
Howdy,

Low volume and nasty, right? Champ / Vibro Champ.

jkamp20
11-22-2010, 10:27 AM
Marshall Class 5, if they fix the rattle.

BadAssBill
11-22-2010, 10:42 AM
Fargen Mini-plexi...it's all you'll need.

Elric
11-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Modeler, direct.

MGSchindel
11-22-2010, 10:54 AM
You've got the right amp for that general tone. Add a master volume to the amp or use an attenuator, to pacify neighbors.

AC/DC...at a reasonable volume...that's an oxymoron...like dating a "respectable" stripper....:rotflmao

Crank that marshall and that SG until those greenbacks are raunching like rabid dogs! You're supposed to be ringing hell's bells here!

Cheers!

andrekp
11-22-2010, 11:03 AM
If anyone ever solves that mystery, they'll be billionare's. I just don't think you can authentically get that kind of tone at low volumes. We can lie to ourselves, but it is a product of moving air.

Except that you are ignoring the fact that such tones CAN be heard at low volumes - since you can make such tones come out of your stereo at low volumes, and without "moving lots of air."

The tone is obviously not dependant on volume, or moving some particular volume of air, it is dependant on having a device which can output such a tone at whatever volume you are interested in. It is not about moving air, it is about creating that tone. If it was all about moving air, then AC/DC would sound different when you played the CD louder or softer.

So, assuming that a cranked JTM45 can create a servicable-for-you AC/DC tone, but you want it quieter than the cranked JTM45, you just need to find a way to quiet the JTM45 while minimally affecting it's tone, or find something quieter that sounds much the same.

Then you balance the tradeoffs involved: Obviously, a Microcube is quieter than a JTM45, but it doesn't sound like a JTM45. While a 1974x can sound a lot like a JTM45 (much more than a Microcube can), but it is still quite loud.

Additionally, when one says AC/DC tone - what does that mean? The sound as heard on a stereo system? Which one? The one heard when one plays a JTM45 loud? What variables are in play?

Obviously, when one asks how to get AC/DC tone at low volume - what one means is "how do I sound generally like the records, but at a volume I can stand at home?" The best way to do this is to either attenuate an amp that DOES sound like AC/DC in some way (attenuator, power scaling, etc.), or find a smaller, quieter amp that sounds how you like. Such suggestions are readily available.

And attenuators, for all of their issues, still can allow a preferred amp to sound how you'd like it to sound, or better to you than amps that don't sound how you want them to sound. The only question to ask yourself is whether the attenuated sound is the sound you want. An attenuated 1974x sounds better than a non-attenuated Fender DR, if the sound you want is 1974x-like, rather than DR-like. Attenuation changes far less than different speakers or amp. An attenuated JTM45 will sound far more AC/DC than a non-attenuated amp that gets only vaguely close to that sound.

But to say it's not possible to generally sound like AC/DC unless you play a JTM45 at full tilt is just clearly wrong.

kelly dell
11-22-2010, 11:15 AM
You've got the right amp for that general tone. Add a master volume to the amp or use an attenuator, to pacify neighbors.

AC/DC...at a reasonable volume...that's an oxymoron...like dating a "respectable" stripper....:rotflmao

Crank that marshall and that SG until those greenbacks are raunching like rabid dogs! You're supposed to be ringing hell's bells here!

Cheers!

This is nearly word for word what I said like 5 posts ago, AND its true!

You HAVE THE AMP. All you need is the PPIMVM.

skoora
11-22-2010, 11:45 AM
This is nearly word for word what I said like 5 posts ago, AND its true!

You HAVE THE AMP. All you need is the PPIMVM.

I agree. This or an attenuator. I would take my 100 watt plexi, 1 click above load on my attenuator, any day over some 5 watt or single ended attempt at Marshall tone at low levels.

Also even though a Non-Master Marshall is optimal a 70's 2203 or 2204 would be great for that too. Teyhave great Master Volumes and if you set the preamp at about Noon or lower you get a great AC/DC tone. They actually used these heads live a lot in the late 70's.

Gino*
11-22-2010, 12:22 PM
post phase inverter Master volume mod. cost you a couple hundred tops and then you can get that sound at any volume.


Awful mod on my 2204. It was like that when I got it and I couldn't change it back fast enough. There was only one sweet spot and every other setting sounded horrible. Not to mention, it's not a cure-all. The amp still sounded bad with MV very low and PV high, as amps usually do at that setting.

If you're talking extremely low volumes, a modeling amp is as good as the other options (and cheaper too).

nater9
11-22-2010, 12:32 PM
I know you said no pedals, but get yourself a BB Preamp and dial in AC/DC all night long....

lang.murphy
11-22-2010, 12:41 PM
Looks like you already have the amp. Can you afford an Aracom Attenuator? Those get great comments on here.

This.

I have one... the PRX150-PRO. I got mine used for $600. Yep, it's expensive. And, yes, it works GREAT! Yes, every attenuator is going to suck some tone because, yes, ultimately one of the main components of great tone is moving air, but, no, it's not impossible to get great tone at low volume. This unit is proof positive of that.

One of the reasons I decided to drop that kinda coin on an attenuator was that the Aracom allows one to set incoming and outgoing ohm ratings. So you can mismatch heads and cabs. Most other attenuators work either on one ohm rating or maybe two. Aracom handles 2, 4, 8, and 16 ohm ratings.

And the lowest setting on the click switch is named "Variable & Load" which, when selected brings into play the Variable pot which allows for fine tuning the level at low volume.

The Faustine Phantom has gotten great reviews here too. It's smaller than the Aracom and is $799 new.

As others have pointed out... if you're happy with the JTM45 and want THAT tone at lower volume, then I think a good attenuator is the way to go. Better than a PPIMV, imho. Better than buying another amp that may, or may not, match the tone you're trying to achieve at lower volume. I can't see your post to see if you've listed your location, but if you're anywhere near ATL I'd offer to let you try the Aracom out with your JTM45.

MGSchindel
11-22-2010, 12:49 PM
I agree. This or an attenuator. I would take my 100 watt plexi, 1 click above load on my attenuator, any day over some 5 watt or single ended attempt at Marshall tone at low levels.

Also even though a Non-Master Marshall is optimal a 70's 2203 or 2204 would be great for that too. Teyhave great Master Volumes and if you set the preamp at about Noon or lower you get a great AC/DC tone. They actually used these heads live a lot in the late 70's.

This too! And of course why NOT add a 2204 or 2203 to the collection!!!!

I amend my recommendation: Get an attenuator for your NMV head, and a 2203 for your amp collection! : ) Done deal!

Marc Roy
11-22-2010, 12:58 PM
PWE Event Horizon 50 watter. Great master volume and you can drop it down to 15 watts.

Schafrocks
11-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Awful mod on my 2204. It was like that when I got it and I couldn't change it back fast enough. There was only one sweet spot and every other setting sounded horrible. Not to mention, it's not a cure-all. The amp still sounded bad with MV very low and PV high, as amps usually do at that setting.

If you're talking extremely low volumes, a modeling amp is as good as the other options (and cheaper too).

I've heard lots of people say this type master doesn't work well on the 2204 or 2203's.

Schaf

booch
11-22-2010, 01:07 PM
marshall 3203 nails it pretty good too.....

kelly dell
11-22-2010, 01:09 PM
Awful mod on my 2204. It was like that when I got it and I couldn't change it back fast enough. There was only one sweet spot and every other setting sounded horrible. Not to mention, it's not a cure-all. The amp still sounded bad with MV very low and PV high, as amps usually do at that setting.

If you're talking extremely low volumes, a modeling amp is as good as the other options (and cheaper too).


Was your mod done POST phase inverter? It makes a HUGE difference. Also a Plexi is a little different than a 2204. Plus maybe whoever did your mod didnt know what they were doing. My was done in my Plexi 1959 SL by Voodoo in NY and it sound WICKED at every volume level (the whole range is a sweetspot). Perhaps the mod just isnt friendly to the 2204 circuit.

Devnor
11-22-2010, 01:39 PM
I get a very respectable AC/DC tone from my Boogie Mk II C+ :hide2

Gino*
11-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Was your mod done POST phase inverter? It makes a HUGE difference. Also a Plexi is a little different than a 2204. Plus maybe whoever did your mod didnt know what they were doing. My was done in my Plexi 1959 SL by Voodoo in NY and it sound WICKED at every volume level (the whole range is a sweetspot). Perhaps the mod just isnt friendly to the 2204 circuit.

Mine was post phase inverter and seemingly done correctly by a reputable shop (I saw the work order). It did sound good at the sweet spot, but any other setting was useless. Not having it doesn't matter to me since I can play as loud as I need to get the amp going good. Maybe the plexi takes the mod better (but I didn't think plexis had MV).

kelly dell
11-22-2010, 02:29 PM
Maybe the plexi takes the mod better (but I didn't think plexis had MV).

Plexi`s dont have master volumes thats why you do the mod to add one to the circuit. On mine they just added a pot in one of the 1/4 inch jack holes.

I am fortunate like you to be able to play my amps at what ever volume I need to to get my sweet spot.;)

I think i remember reading that the 2203/2204`s dont do as well with that mod.


But With mine I can get that Angus and Malcom just broken dist. perfect at just about any volume.

I get the best AC/DC tone from it with both the master and the channel volume at about half way.

Oz Hofstatter
11-22-2010, 03:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_euZJYNlaY&feature=related
Cheers,
Oz

GearHeadFred
11-22-2010, 05:18 PM
I use a THD Hotplate with my JTM45.. Very nice AC/DC tone.. Bedroom level? No, but "small club without getting screamed at to turn down"? Yes!

helio
11-22-2010, 09:11 PM
+1 on the Marshall 1974x

milk bone
11-22-2010, 09:27 PM
This one gets my vote. Buying this very soon for some AC/DC tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06cDfBXZL_U

Leftyman
11-22-2010, 09:41 PM
I agree with a previous post. Just install a master volume on your amp and you are done for relatively cheap. I have a Metroamp 68' lead spec 50 watter with a master volume on the back and it works awesome. It's one of the better master volumes I have heard. I believe they call it the Lar-Mar if I remember correctly.

jkr
11-23-2010, 12:45 AM
I agree 100%. No matter what you do it comes down to physics.

Plus, unless you're talking live, (and even then there's an element of "studio magic"), what we're hearing on the recording has been mixed. And even live-live, Angus has an old JMP backstage in an iso box so there's still an element of "magic" or whatever you want to call it.

Recreating any "driving" tone has to involve a degree of volume. Even a 5 watt 1x8 is much too loud for an apartment.

Most Marshalls should get you in the ballpark (JTM, 1974, even JCM 800). Attenuators help, but aren't the missing link some people make them out to be.

And there's always the "Malcolm factor". Try listening with headphones and pan hard left and hard right. Even if you get the tones, you probably won't get the full effect just due to the fact that it's two guitars and you're basing some of your impression of what AC/DC tone is on hearing both together, so on your own it may sound not quite there, even if you're nailing the tone.
The beginning of You Shook Me for example. On the left, Malcolm is just lightly strumming G and D, but it fills out what's happening on the right, which sounds weak by itself and not what we're used to after hearing it together a million times.

You nailed it.

itstooloudMike
11-23-2010, 08:21 AM
I get great AC/DC tone at low volume using my Budda Superdrive 18 and a Hotplate. Sounds awesome.

Bri5150
01-14-2012, 08:55 AM
I own a Carol Ann OD3r 1x12 combo amp. You can run it at 18 or 30 watts. Mine is at 30 and you can get all kinds of creamy goodness from it at low volume. I'll keep it short here, just google that amp and check them out. Alan builds the best amps I've ever played thru. This amp does everything from super clean, to super heavy rock and takes pedals VERY well. And the tone is always rich and creamy with los of sustain.

Hipster Dofus
01-14-2012, 09:06 AM
65amps Empire, 60's, 70's, and 80's channels. 22w, the master voltage works great. That or an Eleven rack.

Frank Speak
01-14-2012, 09:33 AM
I use a Rivera RockCrusher with my Germino Club 40 (JTM-50 Clone). It's great at any level of attenuation whether I'm in the clubs or at home noodling around at midnight. Here's a little demo I put together when I got the RockCrusher. I added notes a few minutes ago to show you what the attenuation level is for each section.

http://soundcloud.com/lesterstrat/rivera-rockcrusher-demo

DV52
01-14-2012, 10:01 AM
I tried a 1974x a while back.I did not think it was too loud.Great sounding amp,just not enough headroom.

mmunguia
01-14-2012, 10:09 AM
I owned a 1974x in the past, great tone, but not enough headroom, also a 2061x, louder, but not loud with a loud drummer, but too loud to crank to get that ACDC tone at bedroom levels.

Now: Fargen olde 800, great master volume, can get in the "ZONE" at all levels, nice overdrive tones at bedroom levels, for practice with tons of headroom at 25 watts!!!!

DV52
01-14-2012, 10:09 AM
I use a Rivera RockCrusher with my Germino Club 40 (JTM-50 Clone). It's great at any level of attenuation whether I'm in the clubs or at home noodling around at midnight. Here's a little demo I put together when I got the RockCrusher. I added notes a few minutes ago to show you what the attenuation level is for each section.

http://soundcloud.com/lesterstrat/rivera-rockcrusher-demo
Very nice job Frank.

fellsilver
01-14-2012, 10:35 AM
Alright... I can already feel the flames heating up, but believe it or not the right Marshall Lead 12 combo will get you so close it's scary.

I have a 1983-vintage that's rich and warm sounding. Bone stock. Gain around 7 or 8, volume around 5, treble & mids at 5, bass at 10/wide open (numbers on the dials, not clock face settings).

Again, though-- the right Lead 12. They seem to be very inconsistent. I was in a shop that had two of them the other day, one sounded tinny and harsh, and the other was muddy but harsh at the same time.

If you find a good one, though, it'll definitely invoke AC/DC at a reasonable volume.

ggwwbb
01-14-2012, 10:40 AM
My Roccaforte Custom 18 combo can nail AC/DC. But it is a very loud amp.

Also, I have been able to get my Line 6 Pocket POD to nail it too.

talpa
01-14-2012, 11:05 AM
If anyone ever solves that mystery, they'll be billionare's. I just don't think you can authentically get that kind of tone at low volumes. We can lie to ourselves, but it is a product of moving air.

experimented with my Germino Club 40 (which take many different power tubes) using some of my vintage KT66 stash..

it is very close using the proper guitar/pickups and having a proper 412..no pedals.

you are pushing 35-40 watts with the KTs...but very manageable. imo the tone is there (i mean their JTM 45/100 tones)

i run thru the Let There Be Rock (my #2 behind AYE) LP all the time for warmups..like take those opening chords to Overdose, it's all there..

the Club 40 is already a classic imo. i own #10 :YinYang

Frank Speak
01-14-2012, 11:26 AM
talpa,

I agree with you (I have a Club 40 too) with regards to how cool the Club 40 is, but this cat is wanting low volume for recording levels. That ain't happening with the Club 40, regardless of tubes used, without attenuating the amp or using a pedal for gain, and he doesn't want to use a pedal.

Dave_C
01-14-2012, 11:51 AM
Get an attenuator with load and line out capability. Run the amp into the attenuator set to load and run the line out into your recording software through a good speaker simulation plus a little ambient verb. I've heard people get killer results with this simple chain.

Dave_C
01-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Except that you are ignoring the fact that such tones CAN be heard at low volumes - since you can make such tones come out of your stereo at low volumes, and without "moving lots of air."

The tone is obviously not dependant on volume, or moving some particular volume of air, it is dependant on having a device which can output such a tone at whatever volume you are interested in. It is not about moving air, it is about creating that tone. If it was all about moving air, then AC/DC would sound different when you played the CD louder or softer.

[...]

This is just not true. It is well known that speakers and cabs driven really hard sound different than speakers and cabs driven very lightly...and recording mic(s) pick that up. There's a lot more going on than just the amp. So, what you're hearing at low volume on a playback device is something that was captured at very high volume. This is very different than capturing at low volume and listening at low volume.

That said, speaker sims have come a long way and I've heard some killer Marshall crunch tones (AC/DC, VanHalen) obtained with a good attenuator/dummy load and speaker sims or even just with attenuators through regular guitar cabs at low volume. It'll never sound exactly like the original because of numerous factors, such as mic type/placement, the room, the recording path, the player, etc. Hard-driven speakers/cabs is one of those factors too.

Dave_C
01-14-2012, 12:15 PM
Awful mod on my 2204. It was like that when I got it and I couldn't change it back fast enough. There was only one sweet spot and every other setting sounded horrible. Not to mention, it's not a cure-all. The amp still sounded bad with MV very low and PV high, as amps usually do at that setting.

If you're talking extremely low volumes, a modeling amp is as good as the other options (and cheaper too).


I agree. MV solutions completely change too many things that contribute to cranked amp tone.

They reduce power supply demand, thus eliminating power supply compression and ghosting which contribute greatly to cranked amp tone.
They reduce signal amplitude to the power amp and output transformer, thus eliminating power tube distortion and the harmonics created by the OT getting slammed really hard.
It's like you're cranking half the amp without cranking the other half. IMO, PPIMVs have always been too much of a compromise.

GTRJohnny
01-14-2012, 07:26 PM
I didn't mind the Badger for that. Bigger iron Marshalls are better at it, but the low volume thing would lean me towards a Badger for home recording.

Cymbaline
01-14-2012, 07:39 PM
The Egnater Tweaker does AC/DC tones very well. Granted it's not a JTM45 or a Plexi, but it's still a great amp.

I also agree with the suggestions to get a THD Hot Plate if you've already got a Marshall. Set it to -16dB and use the pot to dial it all the way down to zero if you want, and they sound great.

mesa/boogieman
01-14-2012, 07:42 PM
Orange Tiny Terror!

Hamer95USA
01-14-2012, 09:55 PM
Soldano Astroverb 16 can nail that type of tone and it's around 20 watts. I have the 1x12 combo and installed a Celestion Greenback speaker in mine. Plug it into a nice 4x12 cab and you're ready to rock the night away.

Guitar George

phoenix 7
01-14-2012, 11:26 PM
Looks like you already have the amp. Can you afford an Aracom Attenuator? Those get great comments on here.

Love my Aracom with my plexi. I agree about getting the sound from the amp rather than pedal. The Aracom will give you your amp's sound at lower volume.

ChorusCrackpot
01-14-2012, 11:41 PM
It's difficult without actually just plugging into an old Marshall head, setting everything at noon and hitting those strings hard. It needs to be loud so you get that clear bold bell-like ringing, that deep clang. Amps won't "ring" if the poweramp is squished down at a low volume, or have too little headroom (which is the same effect of being squishy).

Malcolm's tone is that clear ringing clang, while Angus' rhythm tone is a bit murkier, almost fuzzy. I think it's from his JTM45 sagging a little bit, and maybe using the neck pickup rather than the bridge? Together they mesh and get a beefy, raunchy, yet clear sound that rings out.

For example:
VjkJfMrQ4bc


Their best album of all:
pjdIl7CZbd8

saxosim
01-15-2012, 04:14 AM
Hello my first post on here but just reading your post and being a big AC/DC fan I thought I would give my input.

I too also wanted the AC/DC type sound and I would say have just about got it plus I wanted it so I can play at home without immense volume or upsetting the neighbours.

I use a Blackstar HT5 Valve head and 1x10 cab. It is 5 watts 2 channels and designed to be respectable volume wise but can be played at low volumes with great results. It has what is called ISF which allows a good setup on the overdrive channel.

Pickup wise I also use a Bare Knuckles Riff Raff in my SG at the bridge which also helps with the sound.

Obviously most of the magic in getting the sound is actually being Angus Young with his magic fingers but you can get close enough for my liking :)

If you were after more of the Malcolm sound the amp I would say is ideal for both.

Hope this helps, here is a link to a video with a guy explaining how to get the Angus type sound from different amps although his advice is mainly around volume.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LMljLcN8Vg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Cheers :)

FFTT
01-15-2012, 04:52 AM
I have always thought of Malcolms rhythm tones as the signature AC/DC
sound.

His amps are not high gain at all, just on the edge of crunch with a hard attack.

If I were shopping for an amp to deliver those tones in a reliable build,
I'd go for a Reeves Custom 50 with Power Scaling or the Reeves Super 78
for a bit more gain.

Roe
01-15-2012, 06:42 AM
mal have mostly been recording with a superbass and a jtm45/100.
ang has been using lots of marshalls, but some of the classical tones are superleads and 2203s

FFTT
01-15-2012, 08:01 AM
The problem with great amps like the Super Bass is finding one
with original build integrity, NOS or original Mullards and just the right speakers in the
cab.

The OP wants to get close to AC/DC tones without the volume
it would take to push a Big Block 4XEL34 Marshall to natural breakup.

QRSS
01-15-2012, 08:07 AM
Orange Tiny Terror!

great for those '77-'83 tones.

Kmaz
01-15-2012, 08:09 AM
Victoria Bassman.

Coolidge
01-15-2012, 08:36 AM
I agree. MV solutions completely change too many things that contribute to cranked amp tone.

They reduce power supply demand, thus eliminating power supply compression and ghosting which contribute greatly to cranked amp tone.
They reduce signal amplitude to the power amp and output transformer, thus eliminating power tube distortion and the harmonics created by the OT getting slammed really hard.
It's like you're cranking half the amp without cranking the other half. IMO, PPIMVs have always been too much of a compromise.

PPIMV's work great on 100 watt Marshalls with the MV set around 3 or above and there are bedroom volume clips out there (mic'd obviously) that sound fantastic. This vaunted power tube distortion I don't buy it. Think about how many pro's crank the preamp for their tone but line out before the vaunted power tube section into their time based effects, then re-amp into another Marshall set up clean so as not to distort the time based effects, they have no power tube distortion going on yet they have monster Marshall tone.

If you actually cranked a non-master volume Marshall to 10 and put a scope on the signal before the power tube section what would you see? Yep the signal is already clipped hard before it even gets to the power tubes. The "post phase inverter" MV lets you drive the phase inverter hard at lower volumes vs a pre phase inverter MV that's the distinction.

Now the PPIMV does render presence and depth controls pretty much useless at lower volumes so thats one down side.

rp108
01-15-2012, 09:37 AM
'76 JMP + attenuator

Dave_C
01-15-2012, 10:29 AM
PPIMV's work great on 100 watt Marshalls with the MV set around 3 or above and there are bedroom volume clips out there (mic'd obviously) that sound fantastic. This vaunted power tube distortion I don't buy it. Think about how many pro's crank the preamp for their tone but line out before the vaunted power tube section into their time based effects, then re-amp into another Marshall set up clean so as not to distort the time based effects, they have no power tube distortion going on yet they have monster Marshall tone.

Grabbing the preamp is impossible for any of the 60s or early 70s Marshalls or clones, which is more the subject of this thread regarding getting AC/DC tones. The amps they use don't have preamp outs! With these amps, you need to grab the wet side source from a mic'ed cab, a DI or an attenuator line out. As for power amp clipping, it does indeed occur and has been clearly documented. See below.

If you actually cranked a non-master volume Marshall to 10 and put a scope on the signal before the power tube section what would you see? Yep the signal is already clipped hard before it even gets to the power tubes. The "post phase inverter" MV lets you drive the phase inverter hard at lower volumes vs a pre phase inverter MV that's the distinction.

The implication you're making here is incorrect. Here are scope shots of a Trainwreck Express which clearly show that, as volume is increased on a NMV amp, distortion starts in the power amp and PI simultaneously (bottom pics) and gradually makes its way back to the preamp in stages, as volume is increased. Installing a PPIMV completely destroys this complex relationship between PI and power amp (it completely removes the power amp distortion), not to mention the compression and ghosting in the power supply or the harmonics generated in a pushed OT, which you did not address nor which is covered in the link below, but which is a huge part of the cranked amp tonal equation. The only way you can obtain these complex interactions at low volume is with an attenuator, an iso box or a Fluxtone type speaker.

http://home.polstra.com/amps/wreck1/scope/

fe911
01-15-2012, 11:18 AM
This thread is awesome, it is exactly what has been on my mind for the last month.
My cousin decided to pick up the guitar again after twenty years and a recent layoff. He bought an epiphone les paul and decided he was going to be the next Slash! We decided to start getting together on mondays to jam. I wanted him to learn full songs, not just lead riffs. The obvious choice for two guitars was ac/dc. And if you guys have any other recommendations for hard rock, I would be grateful!
I have a jtm45 running through a 4x12 with vintage 30's that is a real nice combination. The cab lowers the bass flabbiness very nicely. He plays his epiphone through my dc30 going to a closed backed 2x12 with cannabis Rex speakers. And because his guitar has the muddiest pickups I have ever heard, it works rather well with the overly bright dc30.
Back to the volume. We really have to push a lot of air to get it to sound good. We've used attenuators, the mv on the dc30, and fuzz pedals to try and get it to sound good. But something about the types of chords and leads just needs all of the tubes sweating and serious speaker break up. It just doesn't feel right any other way.
I think I'll try some nice earplugs instead. This is the most fun I've had playing in a long time

Coolidge
01-16-2012, 10:18 PM
Grabbing the preamp is impossible for any of the 60s or early 70s Marshalls or clones, which is more the subject of this thread regarding getting AC/DC tones. The amps they use don't have preamp outs! With these amps, you need to grab the wet side source from a mic'ed cab, a DI or an attenuator line out. As for power amp clipping, it does indeed occur and has been clearly documented. See below.



The implication you're making here is incorrect. Here are scope shots of a Trainwreck Express which clearly show that, as volume is increased on a NMV amp, distortion starts in the power amp and PI simultaneously (bottom pics) and gradually makes its way back to the preamp in stages, as volume is increased. Installing a PPIMV completely destroys this complex relationship between PI and power amp (it completely removes the power amp distortion), not to mention the compression and ghosting in the power supply or the harmonics generated in a pushed OT, which you did not address nor which is covered in the link below, but which is a huge part of the cranked amp tonal equation. The only way you can obtain these complex interactions at low volume is with an attenuator, an iso box or a Fluxtone type speaker.

http://home.polstra.com/amps/wreck1/scope/

"completely destroys" lol we will have to agree to disagree. I have built 69's both with and without PPIMV's and find they work quite well in these amps. Articulate, highly touch sensitive, punchy, nice swirl with the gain (Volume) 7-8 and the PPIMV 4-5. A non-MV cranked to an ear splitting 130db not so much.

Frank Speak
01-16-2012, 10:51 PM
This argument has been done ad nauseum. I have to laugh every time I see it because, frankly, you're all completely wrong. I have studied, researched and listened to the best liars on the planet and have unveiled the key ingredients to the magic tone. There are three:

1. Great tone requires the best flux capacitor money can buy. You CANNOT go cheap here.

2. Alexander, The Great, (you know, that portly HRM feller) said it best. Great tone seems to thrive on crystal ladders, whereas it just doesn't seem to do well in silicone valley. I learned that from watching all those videos with Al, The Great, and that Henry Winkler feller.

3. The MOST important ingredient to great tone is in the jewel light. Now, I will caveat that this is the most subjective element. Some like red for that aggressive "GET OFF MY LAWN" vibe. That's fine and it fits well for some stuff. Me, however, I find that the purple jewel light takes me to that place that that blond headed (bowl cut) dude, Kurt Cocaine I think, named his band after. What's that place, Nerdville or something like that. Anyhow, that, like farm living, is the place for me. ;)

teleman55
01-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Bugera V5?

Metalex
01-17-2012, 12:42 AM
THD UniValve

FFTT
01-17-2012, 02:50 AM
To be honest, my old band covered AC/DC with a Vibrolux Reverb and a Super.
Never a complaint.

Starsailor
01-17-2012, 04:59 AM
"completely destroys" lol we will have to agree to disagree. I have built 69's both with and without PPIMV's and find they work quite well in these amps. Articulate, highly touch sensitive, punchy, nice swirl with the gain (Volume) 7-8 and the PPIMV 4-5. A non-MV cranked to an ear splitting 130db not so much.

I agree with this. Granted, I'm no expert on the matter but to my ears ppimv are great with 100 Marshall. I set mine similar to those settings for home use and don't feel I'm lacking much tone compared to running it wide open.

Earplayer
01-17-2012, 08:00 AM
honestly. 100w marshall superlead from 70-76 with a G12M cab from that era... with a faustine phantom attenuator. you are done.

my 71 superlead with the straight 70 g12m pre rola cab trough the faustine delivers the raw and organic ac/dc highway to hell album tones at very low volumes - awesome!!!!!!

TubeStack
01-17-2012, 08:07 AM
"AC/DC" and "reasonable volume" do not go together.

newi123
01-17-2012, 10:10 AM
Orange Tiny Terror!

This!

When Tiny Terrors first appeared I read the Guitarist UK review and they said the guys at Orange had specifically designed this to give the AC/DC first album sound (live wire, high voltage etc etc etc) with the volume maxed and gain on around 7 - Guitarist reckoned they were spot on, and it worked when I bought one too.......... the review must be out there on the web somewhere!

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 12:17 PM
"completely destroys" lol we will have to agree to disagree. I have built 69's both with and without PPIMV's and find they work quite well in these amps. Articulate, highly touch sensitive, punchy, nice swirl with the gain (Volume) 7-8 and the PPIMV 4-5. A non-MV cranked to an ear splitting 130db not so much.

Thankfully, nobody ever needs to play at 130db to get cranked amp tones anymore, given all the nice attenuators on the market these days. That was my whole point. No need to mod amps with ppimvs so that you're only getting half the equation. But, if you dig the tone/feel you get by doing that, then that's all that matters!

scott
01-17-2012, 12:56 PM
PPIMV's work great on 100 watt Marshalls with the MV set around 3 or above and there are bedroom volume clips out there (mic'd obviously) that sound fantastic. This vaunted power tube distortion I don't buy it. Think about how many pro's crank the preamp for their tone but line out before the vaunted power tube section into their time based effects, then re-amp into another Marshall set up clean so as not to distort the time based effects, they have no power tube distortion going on yet they have monster Marshall tone.

If you actually cranked a non-master volume Marshall to 10 and put a scope on the signal before the power tube section what would you see? Yep the signal is already clipped hard before it even gets to the power tubes. The "post phase inverter" MV lets you drive the phase inverter hard at lower volumes vs a pre phase inverter MV that's the distinction.

Now the PPIMV does render presence and depth controls pretty much useless at lower volumes so thats one down side.

I haven't found that at all. The ppimv doesn't sound good to me until It is past noon. Anything under that sounds fizzy. It's definitely not the same as a cranked amp, not even close. It is good for knocking the dbs back for gigging though.
I don't know all the techy lingo and I don't care, all I know is what sounds good. And the ppimv needs to be cranked up a bit to sound good......to me anyway.

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 06:55 PM
I haven't found that at all. The ppimv doesn't sound good to me until It is past noon. Anything under that sounds fizzy. It's definitely not the same as a cranked amp, not even close. It is good for knocking the dbs back for gigging though.
I don't know all the techy lingo and I don't care, all I know is what sounds good. And the ppimv needs to be cranked up a bit to sound good......to me anyway.

I agree. And, of course, the reason for that is because once you start cranking the PPIMV, you start taking it out of the circuit and getting the other 2/3 of the amp working for you as well!

The only exception to this rule that I've found is with amps specifically designed to get their distortion from the preamp, like D-styles and other higher gain channel switching type amps.

BradB41
01-17-2012, 07:26 PM
Believe it or not, I'm real happy with my Malcolmy tone using a Maz 18 and a Timmy pedal or the Brake-Lite attenuator. Either option lets you rock at a resasonable volume...even lower with the pedal.

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 08:27 PM
Believe it or not, I'm real happy with my Malcolmy tone using a Maz 18 and a Timmy pedal or the Brake-Lite attenuator. Either option lets you rock at a resasonable volume...even lower with the pedal.

I believe it! I have a Maz 18 Jr NR and a Germino Monterey 100 (JTM 45/100) and the Maz can crunch quite mightily!

Frank Speak
01-17-2012, 08:56 PM
I used to have a Dr. Z Rt. 66 that could get pretty decent AC/DC tones.

schwa
01-17-2012, 08:57 PM
One of my favorite things about my Marshall 2061x is that it gets great AC/DC tones. It sounds like a NMV Marshall because it IS one. There's something about the AC/DC sound that I've never been able to get with MV amps (even Marshalls).

The problem with the 2061x is that it's still crazy loud. I have a Faustine attenuator, and while it's great for taming things down to club volume, something get lost when cutting things down to conversation volume. I think it has much to do with the speakers just not moving very much.

Some folks like the zvex box of rock and distortron to emulate NMV Marshalls. I've tried both and neither of them sound much like the 2061x cranked. They do sound good, but it doesn't stand up to a comparison test.

Coolidge
01-17-2012, 09:47 PM
I haven't found that at all. The ppimv doesn't sound good to me until It is past noon. Anything under that sounds fizzy. It's definitely not the same as a cranked amp, not even close. It is good for knocking the dbs back for gigging though.
I don't know all the techy lingo and I don't care, all I know is what sounds good. And the ppimv needs to be cranked up a bit to sound good......to me anyway.

You mileage may vary depending on the amp, guitar, pups. Below 3 the PPIMV is not so great but if your married to "turn that thing down" it comes in handy. 4-5 this amp gets cooking pretty good. Attenuators been there, low watt amps been there, neither are perfect. Have not tried a isolation cab yet though.

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 10:07 PM
I used to have a Dr. Z Rt. 66 that could get pretty decent AC/DC tones.

Had one of those too and, cranked, it had an absolutely magnificent crunch tone! Great amp for that stuff.

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 10:10 PM
One of my favorite things about my Marshall 2061x is that it gets great AC/DC tones. It sounds like a NMV Marshall because it IS one. There's something about the AC/DC sound that I've never been able to get with MV amps (even Marshalls).

The problem with the 2061x is that it's still crazy loud. I have a Faustine attenuator, and while it's great for taming things down to club volume, something get lost when cutting things down to conversation volume. I think it has much to do with the speakers just not moving very much.

Some folks like the zvex box of rock and distortron to emulate NMV Marshalls. I've tried both and neither of them sound much like the 2061x cranked. They do sound good, but it doesn't stand up to a comparison test.

Agree. The speakers and cab are the last part of the equation!

Dave_C
01-17-2012, 10:14 PM
You mileage may vary depending on the amp, guitar, pups. Below 3 the PPIMV is not so great but if your married to "turn that thing down" it comes in handy. 4-5 this amp gets cooking pretty good. Attenuators been there, low watt amps been there, neither are perfect. Have not tried a isolation cab yet though.

Which attenuators have you tried? They're all over the map. I have tried a Grendel iso cab and felt it colored the tone WAY too much. Yep, you do get the speaker moving, but the box it's in screws up the works.

pbradt
01-17-2012, 10:27 PM
5E3

dmarkj22
01-17-2012, 10:42 PM
Peavey Classic 50 410. You'd be surprised how much tone you can get from the overdrive channel of that amp. It's also a steal. I picked mine up on Craig's List for only $400 bucks.

lang.murphy
01-17-2012, 11:13 PM
Well... I've changed my mind ( :omg ) since I posted #21 over a year ago... since then I've heard a Lar/Mar PPIMV on a Metro SL and it blew me away. As good as my Aracom attenuator at a FRACTION of the cost. Parts: $10 (lol) and then whatever your tech will charge you to install it.

Yeah, can only use it on the amp in which is it installed, but if I go big iron again, I'm getting a Lar/Mar installed and selling my Aracom.

These threads are amusing in that OP responded once, real soon after his original post, and here we are, a year later, spewing our wisdom for all to read. OP long gone. Not saying there's anything wrong with spewing wisdom... it has surely added to my knowledge since I came on board... just saying... ;-)

IceTre
01-18-2012, 12:01 AM
You've got the right amp for that general tone. Add a master volume to the amp or use an attenuator, to pacify neighbors.

AC/DC...at a reasonable volume...that's an oxymoron...like dating a "respectable" stripper....:rotflmao

Crank that marshall and that SG until those greenbacks are raunching like rabid dogs! You're supposed to be ringing hell's bells here!

Cheers!

You've got me laughing out loud, that's great! And you're probably right!

Frank Speak
01-18-2012, 12:19 AM
"I have a Faustine attenuator, and while it's great for taming things down to club volume, something get lost when cutting things down to conversation volume."

The natives will be on the war path when they read that. Lol

Coolidge
01-18-2012, 08:11 AM
Which attenuators have you tried? They're all over the map. I have tried a Grendel iso cab and felt it colored the tone WAY too much. Yep, you do get the speaker moving, but the box it's in screws up the works.

Regarding the iso cabs I was afraid of that. :( I did not have a good experience with one popular brand attenuator, 4-8db fine pushed it a bit higher and bang blew a fuse in my Marshall JVM410h.

Coolidge
01-18-2012, 08:13 AM
Well... I've changed my mind ( :omg ) since I posted #21 over a year ago... since then I've heard a Lar/Mar PPIMV on a Metro SL and it blew me away. As good as my Aracom attenuator at a FRACTION of the cost. Parts: $10 (lol) and then whatever your tech will charge you to install it.

AND if you crank that MV to 10 its effectively out of the circuit and you are back to non-mv spec amp what's not to like. :aok

rippingrudy
01-18-2012, 09:25 AM
Get a 50 watt Marshall Vintage Modern. It nails the ACDC tone on it low dynamic range setting.

QRSS
01-18-2012, 09:27 AM
i wonder if mal and ang would prefer PPIMV over attenuator. :)

dspellman
01-18-2012, 09:56 AM
If anyone ever solves that mystery, they'll be billionare's. I just don't think you can authentically get that kind of tone at low volumes. We can lie to ourselves, but it is a product of moving air.

Uh, no, not so much -- if you're close miking the speaker, the amount of air that you're moving won't make a lot of difference.

I'm doing AC/DC with a Hasserl-modified Carvin Belair (50W, EL84s, Vintage30s). One of the mods allows you to reduce the negative feedback to the power tubes; this gives you more touch sensitivity and a bit more hair, even in cleans. The tone stack has been modified on the gain side. AC/DC's early stuff in particular relies on a relatively clean rhythm guitar juxtiposed with a slighty more gainy lead. It's the two guitarists together that really make the overall sound.

Dave_C
01-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Regarding the iso cabs I was afraid of that. :( I did not have a good experience with one popular brand attenuator, 4-8db fine pushed it a bit higher and bang blew a fuse in my Marshall JVM410h.

Hmmmm.....unless you're severely mismatching impedances (like the Ultimate does), you shouldn't be blowing fuses. But, that head is normally not cranked to get OD, being a high gain channel switching affair. It may not be "attenuator friendly". Several amp builders I know will not honor warranties if certain of their amps are used with attenuators.

Dave_C
01-18-2012, 02:50 PM
Uh, no, not so much -- if you're close miking the speaker, the amount of air that you're moving won't make a lot of difference.

I'm doing AC/DC with a Hasserl-modified Carvin Belair (50W, EL84s, Vintage30s). One of the mods allows you to reduce the negative feedback to the power tubes; this gives you more touch sensitivity and a bit more hair, even in cleans. The tone stack has been modified on the gain side. AC/DC's early stuff in particular relies on a relatively clean rhythm guitar juxtiposed with a slighty more gainy lead. It's the two guitarists together that really make the overall sound.

I agree with the last statement wholeheartedly but not the first one about moving air not making a difference with close mic'ing. Moving more air is just a catch phrase for dissipating more power in the speakers, which will definitely change speaker EQ...and that change in tone would certainly be picked up by a mic, almost no matter where it's placed.

Coolidge
01-18-2012, 03:40 PM
Hmmmm.....unless you're severely mismatching impedances (like the Ultimate does), you shouldn't be blowing fuses. But, that head is normally not cranked to get OD, being a high gain channel switching affair. It may not be "attenuator friendly". Several amp builders I know will not honor warranties if certain of their amps are used with attenuators.

Nor will Mercury Magnetics honor their warranty if attenuators are used.

Frank Speak
01-18-2012, 06:56 PM
Re: Amp problems when using an attenuator

I don't think it has anything to do with attenuators per se. If you have a proper impedance match, the only thing the attenuator is doing is lower the volume. It's not pushing the amp hard. The amp is being pushed hard because the volume knob is twisted clockwise severely, and that puts more strain on the tubes and transformers. But, that's a product of volume knob being twisted. The same thing is happening with or without the use of an attenuator.

I would guess the reason some companies don't honor the warranty if an attenuator is in use is because they know there are many poorly designed units on the market. Paul Rivera stated that when he started looking at the different units he was shocked at his findings; many poor designs using cheap components and wide tolerances.

rouss
01-18-2012, 07:40 PM
believe it or not a fender princeton one of the class ab ones into a scumback m75. . You can also swith over to el84s with that. . Princetons dont get that lowd with a scumack

Emplexador
01-18-2012, 10:36 PM
Anyone mention Solodallas? Fil can do Angus better than anyone at any volume with a Marshall 1959 (BB) and an Aracom attenuator. Checkout solodallas.net

mesa/boogieman
02-25-2012, 05:15 PM
This!

When Tiny Terrors first appeared I read the Guitarist UK review and they said the guys at Orange had specifically designed this to give the AC/DC first album sound (live wire, high voltage etc etc etc) with the volume maxed and gain on around 7 - Guitarist reckoned they were spot on, and it worked when I bought one too.......... the review must be out there on the web somewhere!

Yes reading this review is what had me decide on the Tiny Terror. This plus the Ibanez AF75 that I play is instant Malcolm Young!

tnt365
02-25-2012, 05:17 PM
Any good clean platform and a Wampler Plexi-Drive will get you there. Add a boost for solos.

Griz
02-25-2012, 05:20 PM
2061X ... it's still pretty loud, but you get some crunch earlier than a JTM45.

:agree

Reeves Custom 30 will get you there too. Power scaled.

grizdeluxe
02-25-2012, 05:22 PM
I'm getting a great ACDC tone out of my 18 watt build with blended channels. It's not the same as its big brothers but it has plenty of low end and midrange cut.

shakeshakeshake
02-25-2012, 05:47 PM
Anyone mention Solodallas? Fil can do Angus better than anyone at any volume with a Marshall 1959 (BB) and an Aracom attenuator. Checkout solodallas.net


was just gonna link this

he has a really great article about the different amps AC/DC used up till back in black...a lot of variation in the tones


I dont have any ideas to ad though-

fusionbear
02-25-2012, 11:27 PM
Splawn Quickrod in Gear 1:

gTmsqQ3h0_g

SoloDallas
03-04-2012, 03:28 PM
Attenuators. I really suggest to go with attenuators.
For any need, really, from bedroom rocker to sage, to stadium.
A GOOD attenuator nowadays will give us back - to us mortals that don't play stadiums that is - to finally USE the old beasts to their fullest.

I only play "big" amps, but I rarely play them loud. At times I take the chance.

Some stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvv6Sl3RLro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRECq-RrUo

I finally uncovered part of the older sound of AC/DC (Angus), from 1978 to the late '80s.

Some info (and sounds) here. I am sure it will catch your attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97aJptAzPrQ

Fil :)

SoloDallas
03-05-2012, 05:57 AM
Youtube tag not working, reposting links only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvv6Sl3RLro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRECq-RrUo



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97aJptAzPrQ

Iceman8.6
03-05-2012, 06:57 AM
These threads are amusing in that OP responded once, real soon after his original post, and here we are, a year later, spewing our wisdom for all to read. OP long gone. Not saying there's anything wrong with spewing wisdom... it has surely added to my knowledge since I came on board... just saying... ;-)Thats how we roll:stir:banana