Want to start transcribing Wayne Krantz tunes...Oh boy...

[Zero G]

So, I think I want to transcribe some Wayne Krantz tunes off of 2DM, possibly starting with Whippersnapper and Dream Called Love. I'm pretty good with transcribing single notes and basic chords, but I am not good at transcribing harmonically complex chords and fragments. How should I go about doing this, and how do I find the correct voicing?

Another thing I want to learn is how Krantz puts chords and chord fragments together in a way that makes sense, harmonically. Does one have to understand complex jazz harmony first? I understand the basics of harmony theory, but I learn better by playing and listening rather than looking at a circle of fifths diagram. I have a Boss RC-2 looper pedal if that can help my understanding in any way. Thanks in advance.

[JonR]

Good luck with that! :bow

I strongly suggest you get hold of a copy of Transcribe - it will do so much more than a looper pedal in helping you hear detail in music.
http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/screenshots.html
I certainly wouldn't attempt such a task without it. It would be like trying to scale Everest without oxygen...

From what I've heard of WK, I don't think knowledge of jazz harmony is essential. I'm sure he knows all about that, but it won't help you hear what he's playing. It would, of course, help you interpret what he does - to some extent anyway. But all it will do is give names to what you're hearing; it won't "explain" anything. (Music theory doesn't explain why things work, it just describes how they do.)

Out of those 2 tracks, Dream Called Love sounds slightly easier. Whippersnapper's riffs are not too hard, but there's some unusual dissonant chords in there. And the rhythms are very complicated.

As for voicings, once you can identify the notes in a chord (by listening and trial and error, or with software assistance), just find the shape that makes sense in terms of ease of playing, especially in moves between shapes.

[Zero G]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, that by 'transcribe', I mean figure out what he's playing so I can play it myself rather than actually notating every single note and chord. I think if I were to sit there and actually notate a whole song, I would literally be bored to death!

[esmiralha]

I started tabbin it for ya:

---%-(-*&&-----&8&&899
--756&57%%5-----&&¨%%%
---&6%5%%5678-------&6717236263636
-987896---9767----87558*&*$$$$%Ÿ

Pretty straigthforward stuff.

[dsw67]

I started tabbin it for ya:

---%-(-*&&-----&8&&899
--756&57%%5-----&&¨%%%
---&6%5%%5678-------&6717236263636
-987896---9767----87558*&*$$$$%Ÿ

Pretty straigthforward stuff.

Classic! :bow

[guitarjazz]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, that by 'transcribe', I mean figure out what he's playing so I can play it myself rather than actually notating every single note and chord. I think if I were to sit there and actually notate a whole song, I would literally be bored to death!
Too bad you'd be so bored with it(notating). It might help you remember things.
If you have the patience to figure out Wayne's stuff you'd probably have the patience to write it out.
One of my old friends played keys on his first CD. I'd never heard of Wayne before and I bought it as a 'cut-out' cause my friend was on it. What a nice surprise to hear Wayne.

[JonR]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, that by 'transcribe', I mean figure out what he's playing so I can play it myself rather than actually notating every single note and chord. I think if I were to sit there and actually notate a whole song, I would literally be bored to death!Why? I'm not particularly a fan of WK, but I would not be bored transcribing one of those tunes. There's lots of fascinating stuff going on there. I guess I wouldn't do every note of a solo, but I would get the form, the chords, the melodies, the riffs, the bass parts - and any solo phrases or ideas that sounded cool. So maybe not the whole thing, but maybe 60-80% of it.

How are you going to "figure out what he's playing" without listening closely enough to notate it exactly? Even if you don't actually write it out.
Of course I agree that learning to play it is what matters. But that will take even longer than notating it!
Personally, I don't separate the two. I play while notating. I use notation as a reminder when I forget how something goes. IOW, the notation makes learning how to play it easier, because I need to hold less in my head as I go.

I think your instinct is right, however. The sounds and the playing are what matter, not translating it into dots on a page (or screen). It's the boredom aspect I don't get.
When I enjoy a piece of music enough to want to play it, I can spend hours, maybe a whole day or more, getting inside every note and chord. It's not just about learning the guitar parts, I want to know what the bass or keys are doing. (Certainly I need to know those things if I'm going to improvise on it - and I always want to understand any piece of music well enough to do that, not just parrot the guitar line, however fancy that is.)
Maybe it's just me - because I compose as well as play guitar, so I want to know what makes the music tick, how it's all put together.

Grantme's advice is good, of course - anything you can get from the horse's mouth, as it were.;)

[Clifford-D]

Whippersnapper shouldn't be that hard to cop those chords in the head, my Tascum slower downer would be fine.

The chords he plays in the head are all pretty much vertical so you get little snapshots. For this part you don't really even need the Tascum. It's like in 1/4 notes.

I'm listening to this tune live on youtube as I'm writing, he's amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG5IblVhW6A

here's a shot at this youtubes first few chords without the slower downer
no rhythms of course

|---8--10--12-13-|------------------------------------------------------|
|---8--10--12-13-|-6--6--3--3--3--1--12--10-----------------------------|
|---7--9---11-12-|-4--5--------4--2--12--10-11--------------------------|
|---7--9---11-12-|-------------5--3--12--10-----------------------------|
|----------------|-----------------------------5----------------2---2-3-|
|----------------|-------------------------------2-3-3-4-4-5--5---5-----|

|-------------------------------|
|---1--6--------3--1--12--10----|
|---4--5--7--7--4--2--12--10-11-|
|------8--------5--3--12--10----|
|-------------------------------|
|-------------------------------|

Is that close?

[Zero G]

Why?

1. I can't read music

2. I have a good memory and I don't need to notate a line to remember how to play it

3. I'd rather just play

are you going to "figure out what he's playing" without listening closely enough to notate it exactly? Even if you don't actually write it out.

Easy. I'm going to sit there and listen closely and then try and match what he's playing on my guitar. Then if it sounds right, I'll play the line a bunch of times to memorize it and get it under my fingers.

course I agree that learning to play it is what matters. But that will take even longer than notating it!

How do you figure?

, I don't separate the two. I play while notating. I use notation as a reminder when I forget how something goes. IOW, the notation makes learning how to play it easier, because I need to hold less in my head as I go.

If I knew how to notate something quickly and easily, I might have a different perspective....I just want to be able to play it so I can add some fresh licks and chords to my library, and to break my mindless noodling habit.

I think your instinct is right, however. The sounds and the playing are what matter, not translating it into dots on a page (or screen). It's the boredom aspect I don't get.
When I enjoy a piece of music enough to want to play it, I can spend hours, maybe a whole day or more, getting inside every note and chord. It's not just about learning the guitar parts, I want to know what the bass or keys are doing. (Certainly I need to know those things if I'm going to improvise on it - and I always want to understand any piece of music well enough to do that, not just parrot the guitar line, however fancy that is.)
Maybe it's just me - because I compose as well as play guitar, so I want to know what makes the music tick, how it's all put together.

Hey, that's your prerogative, and that's cool, but I get bored of things really easily (ADD).

[JonR]

How do you figure?Well, as you can't read/write music, my comment doesn't really apply :).
For me, learning to play something - esp something as complicated as WK - means going over things many times until they're comfortable under the fingers and I memorise them (I'm sure that's the same for you). Notating something, I just have to work the notes out and write them down. I don't have to be able to play them at tempo.

It also makes the learning process a little quicker, because I can consult the notation while learning instead of having to loop the audio over and over, and try and hold everything in my head.
Naturally I want to do without the notation in the end, so I still need to train those fingers. But I find the process easier along the way if supported by notation.

If I knew how to notate something quickly and easily, I might have a different perspective....I just want to be able to play it so I can add some fresh licks and chords to my library, and to break my mindless noodling habit.Right - like I said, that's exactly the right perspective. (Sorry I don't mean to be patronising!)
Some people feel that once they're got something notated, that's job done. It gets filed away, and they move on to the next transcription.
As I'm sure you'll agree, you need to PLAY something over and over to really learn and internalise it - for it to be useful in your own music.
So notation can be a distraction. If you can't read or write, that at least forces you to use your ears all the time.

Hey, that's your prerogative, and that's cool, but I get bored of things really easily (ADD).OK. WK's music will be a real challenge then, because there's so much going on.
I mean, on the one hand there should be enough to stop you getting bored. But on the other, you could be spending a lot of time on one tune. (But then that's your choice of course - you don't need to learn a whole tune!)

There's a great zen quote from John Cage that you may (or may not!) appreciate:

"If you think something is boring for 2 minutes, try it for 4. If it's still boring, try it for 8. Then 16 and so on. Eventually you find it's not boring at all but extremely interesting."

IOW, boredom is an attitude. It's not inherent in the material but in our approach to it. There's always deeper levels to everything, different ways of focussing one's attention, like different magnifications. Even just sitting and staring into space (or even with your eyes closed and listening to nothing but the ambience) can be fascinating... (Not that I can stand much of that myself :rolleyes:)

[Jeremy_Green]

I dont really have a ton of harmonic insight for you... But I do know that Wayne loves suspending open strings over damn near everything (chords, lines etc). Some of his large intervallic jumps come from this approach.

He also uses his "4-fret" approach a fair bit, where he will get into a zone and really work the groove from that one spot for a bit.

Good luck to you! He is a bizarre and awesome player. I find getting his pocket as hard as anything with his stuff. He is a rhythmic MONSTER!

[Clifford-D]

Whippersnapper shouldn't be that hard to cop those chords in the head, my Tascum slower downer would be fine.

The chords he plays in the head are all pretty much vertical so you get little snapshots. For this part you don't really even need the Tascum. It's like in 1/4 notes.

I'm listening to this tune live on youtube as I'm writing, he's amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG5IblVhW6A

here's a shot at this youtubes first few chords without the slower downer
no rhythms of course

|---8--10--12-13-|------------------------------------------------------|
|---8--10--12-13-|-6--6--3--3--3--1--12--10-----------------------------|
|---7--9---11-12-|-4--5--------4--2--12--10-11--------------------------|
|---7--9---11-12-|-------------5--3--12--10-----------------------------|
|----------------|-----------------------------5----------------2---2-3-|
|----------------|-------------------------------2-3-3-4-4-5--5---5-----|

|-------------------------------|
|---1--6--------3--1--12--10----|
|---4--5--7--7--4--2--12--10-11-|
|------8--------5--3--12--10----|
|-------------------------------|
|-------------------------------|

Is that close?
This is pretty close but what is missing are those rhythms attached to the tab.
JonR has a way of tabbing with rhythms that works good.
The rhythms are the tricky part of this tune and I hope someone comes forward to break it down rhythmically.
At least put in barlines.

[ropiyas]

Soundcheck excerpt from the New Universe Festival. Good stuff.
http://www.guitarplayer.com/ArtistVideo.aspx?bctid=694771367001
(http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid39584946001?bclid=27960354001&bctid=694771367001)

[SteveStevens]

Here's a link to a WK transcription i did. Sorry, no tab. Wouldn't even know where to begin with tabbing a transcription...

http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/wayne-krantz.html

[Zero G]

Here's a link to a WK transcription i did. Sorry, no tab. Wouldn't even know where to begin with tabbing a transcription...
http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/wayne-krantz.html

Cool! I've learned how to read a bit since making this thread, although I haven't transcribed any Krantz tunes yet. I'm more interested in transcribing interesting licks and solos now rather than entire songs. Appreciate you posting that. Oh, and I see you've studied with Wayne too...:eek: So jealous.

[ropiyas]

Here's another...
http://www.guitarworld.com/all-jazz-investigating-ways-use-chord-based-ideas-solo-improvisations

[FatJeff]

So, I think I want to transcribe some Wayne Krantz tunes off of 2DM, possibly starting with Whippersnapper and Dream Called Love. I'm pretty good with transcribing single notes and basic chords, but I am not good at transcribing harmonically complex chords and fragments. How should I go about doing this, and how do I find the correct voicing?

Another thing I want to learn is how Krantz puts chords and chord fragments together in a way that makes sense, harmonically. Does one have to understand complex jazz harmony first? I understand the basics of harmony theory, but I learn better by playing and listening rather than looking at a circle of fifths diagram. I have a Boss RC-2 looper pedal if that can help my understanding in any way. Thanks in advance.

If you are interested in getting inside Wayne's head and understanding how he puts together his lines and his chords (the two of which he does not even differentiate), you should pick up a copy of his OS Manual, and also download the lessons (MP3) listed here: http://www.livekrantz.com/. Well worth the money. He's a fascinating guy, and it's very interesting to listen to his thought process explained.

[guitarjazz]

If you are interested in getting inside Wayne's head and understanding how he puts together his lines and his chords (the two of which he does not even differentiate), you should pick up a copy of his OS Manual, and also download the lessons (MP3) listed here: http://www.livekrantz.com/. Well worth the money. He's a fascinating guy, and it's very interesting to listen to his thought process explained.
I found that in listening to the lessons that the old axiom of never meeting your heroes is true, in a sense. I am inspired by his music but found him to be a little OCD on the lessons. The book is the madness to his method. I don't have the patience (or talent!) to be Wayne.

[Zero G]

I found that in listening to the lessons that the old axiom of never meeting your heroes is true, in a sense. I am inspired by his music but found him to be a little OCD on the lessons. The book is the madness to his method. I don't have the patience (or talent!) to be Wayne.

How do you like the book?

[guitarjazz]

How do you like the book?
I didn't find it helpful in the least but I guess if I did more composing it might be a good resource. The audio lessons explain a little of how Wayne uses the book. I found the lessons more amusing than informative. It is interesting that he arrived at his 'thing' in such a methodical fashion.
I think I still love his first CD best, especially the duets with Don Alias.

[FatJeff]

I didn't find it helpful in the least but I guess if I did more composing it might be a good resource. The audio lessons explain a little of how Wayne uses the book. I found the lessons more amusing than informative. It is interesting that he arrived at his 'thing' in such a methodical fashion.
I think I still love his first CD best, especially the duets with Don Alias.

To each their own, I suppose. I found the book and the lessons to be great. Have you actually tried his exercises? They're quite difficult and very helpful (at least they were to me).

[GuitarBrent]

Wow, I have found the book and lessons to be extremely informative. He opens up enough stuff to work on for years! And the book is about improvising, not composing. The basic 4 fret exercise itself gives you years worth of practice material and is very humbling. I'm still working just on that alone...While Wayne seems to be a bit OCD and admits that he is in one of the lessons, the key to this OS book is that you are freed from mindless exercises and playing with restrictive boxes/shapes. All of your practice is focused on creating original melody, playing in time, learning how to find and execute any tonality in any key, without having to memorize anything.

[Jeremy_Green]

I love Wayne's book... Really love it.
But I can see how for some they may just not get it. Its a pretty arty approach. I mean no disrespect in this comment either. Different approaches resonate differently with people. Doesn't mean the approach is bad, or the student, just the fit.