HD400 into Tech21 TM60

[radix]

Hi to all
anyone using the above combination?
For a few days now, have been tweaking the HD400 (neglected cousin of HD500 for those who are unaware) into the return of the Tech21 Trademark 60.

For some of the clean sounds, actually setting to Preamp mode sounds great(better than full), but i can't say that for the overdrives and distortion amps (switch set to Live, Setup ComboAmp, full/preamp)

No matter how i boost the treble and presence, it's still like a blanket..

Until i throw in a Graphic EQ from FX1, boost the 1k-2.2KHz and everything starts to sound good, and i mean , really good!

Also played with unbalanced output to Line/Amp, got this feeling that Line seems better, but can't confirm on that yet..

So is there something not quite right here? as it's a real bummer here, i lose a FX1 with all the pedals just to EQ it right. Anyone has a similar situation and got away without the EQ (i'm thinking a external EQ pedal, but then no more all-in-one then)?

[Lution]

Going through my Tech 21 Power Engine, my HD500 in Studio/Direct mode so far sounds really good. I know these are different animals. You have a preamp where the PE is just clean power.

[kiki_90291]

There could be something funky going on, but you need to tell us more about your setup - what output setting do you have the HD400 on? How are you eq'ing the Tech 21? What guitar are you using? Have you tried running the HD400 into a full-range system (try your home stereo just to see if there's a difference).

[scolfax]

Hmm interesting. I'm either going to get a powered PA speaker or Power Engine for my HD500. Right now my Fender Pro Jr is not the best option.

[jrockbridge]

I'd be happy if an EQ model made my HD500 sound really good through my amps. Of course, the 500 has more DSP power, so I don't feel like using one EQ model is a hardship. As it stands, I don't like the crunch box models or amp models through my amp rigs. I like the reverbs, delays and volume swells in the loop or 4 CM. I need further testing to see if I'll be satisfied with the compressors and wah models.

[NickCormier]

Have you ever tried like other distortion preamps/pedals into the TM60 and liked that? Im just wondering, maybe the TM60 just can't get that kind of distortion sound you are looking for, therefor its that rather than the HD having issues..

The TM60 from what I read, is more of a jazzy/clean tone amp, thats its forte, rather than the Power Engine which works better with distortion.

[radix]

thanks for the feedback guys
i think i have tried all permutations of the HD400 setup i.e
->Live or studio switch
-> Setup Combo front/Amp,stack front/amp,
-> full/preamp modellings..

and always into the RETURN of the TM60.

i'll still need the EQ pedal(post) to be involved to get any no blanket and a full overdrive /distortion sound .

Lution,
i'm rather intrigued you are able to get a good sound with both studio and live mode, for my setup, it has to be in live mode..

KiKi
full range system yes, but thru a small monitor speaker, could not get enough bass response..

scolfax
that's why i am considering a full range PA just like you if this TM60 doesn;t work out...(more GAS)

jrock
i bought the HD400 (sold off a blackstar HT5) primarliy for the amps modelling, have already got a M13 for effects..think we both need to tweak further..why not you try in the loop and throw in a grapic EQ post...

Nick
i am thinking i'm going into the loop return rather than the front, so it should be kinda clean boost as well, probably the same IC as the Power Engine even...unless i'm wrong..ha



so do i really need a full range PA speakers (now where's the shop that sells the behringer stuff , cheap skate i know, but hope it works ;) )

[radix]

will this do?
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B208D-WH.aspx#documentation

[alp]

Nick
i am thinking i'm going into the loop return rather than the front, so it should be kinda clean boost as well, probably the same IC as the Power Engine even...unless i'm wrong..ha



so do i really need a full range PA speakers (now where's the shop that sells the behringer stuff , cheap skate i know, but hope it works ;) )

Effects loop return on the TM60 is A LOT DIFFERENT sounding than going straight in to PE60. I also read many times that "both use the same power amp and speaker, so its same, ..etc". Believe me, I own both TM60 and PE60 for years. Loop return on the TM60 has a lot of its own color / flavor, that is why you feel the blanket on the speaker. On the other hand, PE60 is a lot more neutral in comparison.

In your situation I would keep the amp modelling for recording or going straight into PA and just use the effects with TM60. I have an M13 and TM60 coupled with it sounds great in many ways.

EDIT: I would also try going into the loop return on TM60 with the Amp sims turned ON but Cab/Mic sims turned OFF. That may work well on certain amp models on Pod HD, probably the ones would make a good couple with an open back 1X12 combo design...

[radix]

Effects loop return on the TM60 is A LOT DIFFERENT sounding than going straight in to PE60. I also read many times that "both use the same power amp and speaker, so its same, ..etc". Believe me, I own both TM60 and PE60 for years. Loop return on the TM60 has a lot of its own color / flavor, that is why you feel the blanket on the speaker. On the other hand, PE60 is a lot more neutral in comparison.

In your situation I would keep the amp modelling for recording or going straight into PA and just use the effects with TM60. I have an M13 and TM60 coupled with it sounds great in many ways.

EDIT: I would also try going into the loop return on TM60 with the Amp sims turned ON but Cab/Mic sims turned OFF. That may work well on certain amp models on Pod HD, probably the ones would make a good couple with an open back 1X12 combo design...

Hi Alp
thanks for the great advice man
think you explained it very well... hmm..so TM60's loop is not as clean as i thought..

well, the HD400 CANNOT turn off the Cab sims, Mic sims yes.(only the HD500 can)

i knew this before i got it, but i was trying to take a chance that it might work well enough..but the blanket thing is well, rather intolerable.. or i would need to put a external EQ pedal, get a FR actives speakers.. either way.. more money need to be spent... :(

well, just wish it was something can be fixed on the HD400 directly..hmmm

[alp]

well, the HD400 CANNOT turn off the Cab sims, Mic sims yes.(only the HD500 can)

Well.. i am shocked actually.. are you sure about that? Cab sims can be turned on/off from beginning of the first Pods ever as well as every digital amp modeler from any brand known to men (at least this man). I don't get the point of Mic sims are switchable on/off but Cab sims are not ! ..? Is it really the way it is on HD400? Honestly i doubt about that...

On the other hand, if it is that way, I am sure you can still get great sounds by your existing setup. In my experience some drive models works very nice in front of TM60's clean channel. Even, sometimes i get really good results by stacking two drive models going simultaneously. I guess you can have 4 simultaneous effects available on HD400 (same on M13) that would be enough for most things actually. My point is make sure to experiment with just effects without amp sims with your existing amp. You may really like what you already have that way.

[guitarnet70]

From the HD400 Advanced User Guide:

"LIVE Mode: In this mode, the analog outputs are fed a signal which includes your selected Amp and specially voiced “Live” Cab version (without a Mic model) which is suited for direct input to an external guitar amp. All active FX models are applied as well. When in LIVE Mode, there are also additional options found in the SETUP menu to allow you to choose the type of amp you are connecting to"

Otherwise you can select the Preamp version of the models, excluding poweramp, cab and mic

[scolfax]

will this do?
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B208D-WH.aspx#documentation

Do you need a mixer with these or do you just go straight from the HD to the speakers?

[guitarnet70]

Straight in

[Will Chen]

I'm pretty sure the speaker modeling circuit of the TM60 is after the effects return and non defeatable. This is the reason the TM60 sounds so consistent from its speaker or run direct. You absolutely must turn off all cabinet modeling when running a modeler into the TM60 return.

[nodata2000]

This is correct. I actually asked this question a couple weeks ago and got it confirmed by Tech 21. I have the PM archived on my home PC...I'll have to grab it and post it when I get home.

I asked because I run a X3, with the output set to "combo power amp" (which defeats the "speaker/mic/room simulation", according to the manual) straight into my TM60's return. I essentially replace the Pod's weak link with much better cab/speaker/mic emulation IMO...

I'm pretty sure the speaker modeling circuit of the TM60 is after the effects return and non defeatable. This is the reason the TM60 sounds so consistent from its speaker or run direct. You absolutely must turn off all cabinet modeling when running a modeler into the TM60 return.

[tech21nyc]

The speaker emulation of the Trademark 60 is before the power amp when you use just the efx return jack. There is no way to turn it off. You would be best turning off your modelers cabinet sims to use it this way as previously mentioned.

[Lution]

thanks tech21nyc for the info

I'm getting good sounds from my Power Engine and the HD500 in Studio/Direct mode with cab sims and mic sims ON.

Quick questions for you regarding my setup.

Is it correct that there is no cab simulation going on with the PE so it is ok to use cab sims?

Also, I tried plugging the xlr output of the HD500 into the xlr input of the PE and the volume level is significantly lower than going from 1/4 to 1/4. Why is that?

Thanks

[tech21nyc]

thanks tech21nyc for the info

I'm getting good sounds from my Power Engine and the HD500 in Studio/Direct mode with cab sims and mic sims ON.

Quick questions for you regarding my setup.

Is it correct that there is no cab simulation going on with the PE so it is ok to use cab sims?

Also, I tried plugging the xlr output of the HD500 into the xlr input of the PE and the volume level is significantly lower than going from 1/4 to 1/4. Why is that?

Thanks

That is correct, there is no SansAmp speaker emulation in our Power Engine products. As long as you are happy with the sound of your modeler using the cab sims through our PE then by all means. There is really no right or wrong.

As to the XLR input it could be that the XLR out on your HD500 is padded down for mic level. Also be sure not to use both the 1/4" and XLR inputs at the same time.

[Lution]

That is correct, there is no SansAmp speaker emulation in our Power Engine products. As long as you are happy with the sound of your modeler using the cab sims through our PE then by all means. There is really no right or wrong.

As to the XLR input it could be that the XLR out on your HD500 is padded down for mic level. Also be sure not to use both the 1/4" and XLR inputs at the same time.

Thanks. I'll look into the xlr level on the HD to see if it is balanced out or not.

I have one suggestion for your Power Engine products. It would be great to have an "amp on" indicator light. Thanks.

[HolyMuffDiver]

Thanks. I'll look into the xlr level on the HD to see if it is balanced out or not.

I have one suggestion for your Power Engine products. It would be great to have an "amp on" indicator light. Thanks.

My Power Engine (the 212) has a power on indicator, is that what you mean? It's on the backside of the amp, next to the power switch.

You mentioned in another thread that you had to cut the highs on the PE when using studio/direct mode. How much did you cut them? And did you adjust any of the other knobs at all? I'm still trying to figure out why my HD500 sounds so brittle through the PE (I've been running it in cab poweramp mode). I tried running my PE's volume all the way up and just controlling the overall volume level with the master volume on the POD, but when I get past halfway on the PE there is an overpowering hum (not sure if it's my PE or the electricity in my house). Is this how you've got the volume set?

[Lution]

My Power Engine (the 212) has a power on indicator, is that what you mean? It's on the backside of the amp, next to the power switch.

You mentioned in another thread that you had to cut the highs on the PE when using studio/direct mode. How much did you cut them? And did you adjust any of the other knobs at all? I'm still trying to figure out why my HD500 sounds so brittle through the PE (I've been running it in cab poweramp mode). I tried running my PE's volume all the way up and just controlling the overall volume level with the master volume on the POD, but when I get past halfway on the PE there is an overpowering hum (not sure if it's my PE or the electricity in my house). Is this how you've got the volume set?

I just got the PE so it's pretty new. I never noticed a power indicator light on the back, but I'm sure there is one. My suggestion was more about having something like a power indicator on the front of the amp or the top. (Who looks on the back side of their amp to make sure it's on?) ;)

When I use Studio/Direct mode output it sounds better, to me, than Combo Power Amp output. I turn down only the high knob just a bit to about 11 o'clock. I haven't felt the need to adjust any of the mids or lows on the PE so they stay at noon.

I run my PE's volume low around 9 o'clock and turn my HD500 master volume up at least past 12o'clock. I've noticed that, for some reason, the HD sounds distant when it's master is set low. I'm getting better tone with it up at least past noon. Best when all the way up, but that gets loud, even with the PE volume at 9 o'clock.

[guitarnet70]

That is correct, there is no SansAmp speaker emulation in our Power Engine products. As long as you are happy with the sound of your modeler using the cab sims through our PE then by all means. There is really no right or wrong.

As to the XLR input it could be that the XLR out on your HD500 is padded down for mic level. Also be sure not to use both the 1/4" and XLR inputs at the same time.

The XLR of the HD is setted much lower than the 1/4, not really at mic level but far lower than line level. On my mixer the gain levels of the mic channels are set at 10' clock for the HD

[radix]

Do you need a mixer with these or do you just go straight from the HD to the speakers?
Hi scolfax,
that would be straight into the active speakers, do i need a mixer? guess most active speakers nowadays have a myrid of line/mic level connections, thot that should be fine.

[radix]

The speaker emulation of the Trademark 60 is before the power amp when you use just the efx return jack. There is no way to turn it off. You would be best turning off your modelers cabinet sims to use it this way as previously mentioned.

so just to sum it up, What tech21nyc is saying is different from Will and nodata2000?
so confirm the speaker emulation is before the power amp, anything into the efx return will be just cleanly boosted by the power amp IC(think is a STM part)right?

yup, i took a chance, as the HD400 is significantly cheaper than HD500 with just the additional cab off feature that is really desirable to me in this case.
so it's like a cab sim into a real cab..but Line6 claimed it's a "specially Voiced cab" and with options to set to what is being connected to..
but i din know it's like a specially voiced blanket!

well..plan b then.

P.S: TM60 is a great amp though. simply loved the clean channel (Drive channel a bit quirky though)

[nodata2000]

I'm pretty sure what tech21nyc is saying is that the emulation is not defeated when you plug into the effects return...

so just to sum it up, What tech21nyc is saying is different from Will and nodata2000?
so confirm the speaker emulation is before the power amp, anything into the efx return will be just cleanly boosted by the power amp IC(think is a STM part)right?

yup, i took a chance, as the HD400 is significantly cheaper than HD500 with just the additional cab off feature that is really desirable to me in this case.
so it's like a cab sim into a real cab..but Line6 claimed it's a "specially Voiced cab" and with options to set to what is being connected to..
but i din know it's like a specially voiced blanket!

well..plan b then.

P.S: TM60 is a great amp though. simply loved the clean channel (Drive channel a bit quirky though)

[jmcorey]

I'd think of the PE as an FRFR rather than an amp + speaker combo.

The power amp is linear, rather than like a guitar amp's. The Celestion Seventy-80 speaker is almost linear, at least very bright.

[tech21nyc]

There is no way to defeat the speaker emulation on the TM60.

As for the XLR input on the Power Engine this input is summed together with the 1/4" input before the isolation transformer (which is why we don't recommend using both inputs simultaneously) and there is no circuitry that would change the level of this input.