How to make a record...

[loudboy]

http://www.shelbylynne.com/video.asp

Everything cool about making music/recording, IMHO. Imagine getting some great players together, making them comfortable and rolling tape...

We need to get away from the PT tweazing/obsessing and start doing more of this...

It's 12 minutes, but there's some great stuff in there.

Loudboy

[jkr]

Amen brother!

PS. Very cool video. I wish my recording sessions would flow that easy.

[loudboy]

Originally posted by jkr
Amen brother!

PS. Very cool video. I wish my recording sessions would flow that easy.

It's simple...

Write songs like that.

Get a singer as great as Shelby.

Get a band as good as those guys.

Get a cool studio like that.

It'll be like falling off a log...

If you're working too hard at it, you're doing something wrong, IMHO.

Loudboy

[SturmerChilton]

Originally posted by loudboy
http://www.shelbylynne.com/video.asp

Everything cool about making music/recording, IMHO. Imagine getting some great players together, making them comfortable and rolling tape...

We need to get away from the PT tweazing/obsessing and start doing more of this...

It's 12 minutes, but there's some great stuff in there.

Loudboy

I kinda like tweazing and obsessing. The way a lot of us home guys do things is because that's the way we have to do them. As much as that video makes it look like all of her redneck friends came over for beer and barbecue, they were all quite handsomely paid and have zero loyalty to Shelby Lynne. I don't have the money to do that all the time. When I record in a pro studio, that's EXACTLY how it needs to go, and I hire guys that show up and all sit in one room on sofas and very relaxed. Although I also have the luxury of knowing the studio owner.

But again, my budget doesn't really allow me the opportunity to go into these studios and do all of the writing and arranging while I'm actually there. :D

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by loudboy


If you're working too hard at it, you're doing something wrong, IMHO.

Loudboy

Only if the results sound overworked.

As far as how "we" should make records, c'mon...there are a bunch of useful approaches one might take.

[joseph]

Originally posted by splatt
there are many ways to make records of which one might be proud.
some music doesn't require a *song*, per sé, and some amazing music continues to be made that *relies* upon cuttin'n'pastin'....

dt / spltrcl

On the 'complete Bitches Brew sessions', liner notes reveal that a LOT of the tunes were exactly that....or more precisely, cuttin' and scotch-taping, as this was analog tape....

Remember the joys of 'editing' with scotch tape?! :eek:

[Red Ant]

I cut so much 2'' tape back in the day my nickname was Dr. Blade :) In fact my partner calls me that to this day :(

[LSchefman]

Sheesh! You guys take offhand remarks and titles so seriously!

I'm sure that all Loudboy meant was that the "old fashioned" approach can be a lot of fun, and we sometimes forget about how cool the results can be.

I'm willing to bet he's not going to abandon the digital world completely!

On a personal note, I enjoy tweezing and tweaking audio, but then I am a complete control freak.

[loudboy]

Originally posted by LSchefman
Sheesh! You guys take offhand remarks and titles so seriously!

I'm sure that all Loudboy meant was that the "old fashioned" approach can be a lot of fun, and we sometimes forget about how cool the results can be.

I'm willing to bet he's not going to abandon the digital world completely!

On a personal note, I enjoy tweezing and tweaking audio, but then I am a complete control freak.

Thanks, Les...

I didn't title the post "The ONLY way to make a record."

I'm also a big fan of Garbage, so there... <g>

Loudboy

[cocheese]

Loudboy,

Thanks for posting that. The atmosphere that they achieve is one that I prefer when I make music. Get some people together and let it happen. Feel comfortable so that you don't mind bearing your soul a little. You have to have guys who are talented, and those guys certainly have the talent. I think the toughest thing is just "letting go" of everything else that you have going on in your life long enough to let the muse come forth. This make sense? Am I off my rocker? (Please don't answer that.)

[dehughes]

Originally posted by loudboy
http://www.shelbylynne.com/video.asp

Everything cool about making music/recording, IMHO. Imagine getting some great players together, making them comfortable and rolling tape...

We need to get away from the PT tweazing/obsessing and start doing more of this...

It's 12 minutes, but there's some great stuff in there.

Loudboy

Holy crap....everything about that is exactly my ideal. Songs, musicianship, recording, vibe, philosophy, approach.....perfect.

We live in the material, but so much of what we do exists in the metaphyisical other....that spiritual realm of vibe and seeming nonsense. Every once in a while someone (musician, physicist, painter, etc...) taps into it/gets in line with that "other" and just kicks out the jams....oh yeah. Kudos to Shelby and her guys...bravo.


david

[Red Ant]

Originally posted by splatt

i surely do prefer (& work towards) my recording projects being filled w/easy-flowing love, respect, 'good times', great food & coffee, and reasonable working hours

:dude:

Preach on, brother splatt! Can we all move to theory? Because all that stuff works in theory ;)

[LSchefman]

>>anyways:
music is serious, no?<<

No. Serious it can be, but not always.

I'm very close to my well-known artist (painting and sculpture) brother, and to many other artists. Artists share a certain penchant for disagreeing over semantics. For an artist to simply agree with someone would waste a golden opportunity to reinforce one's artistic gravamen and expound on one's philosophy.

I am not an artist. I don't want to be one. I already have enough trouble. Artists are hard to get along with.

It's fairly clear to me that Loudboy's post was an expression of his enthusiasm over a kind of recording process, and not a pronouncement for all time about the nature of recording music. I'm one hundred percent sure that this fact was not lost on you.

But why waste an opportunity to be disagreeable? You're an artist! ;)

And yes, I'm purposely giving you a hard time just for the sheer hell of it. :D

[LSchefman]

>>that's not a "truth", les!<<

Aw, hell, I was kidding around and I said so at the bottom of my post.

Artists!

[MichaelK]

I enjoyed that video a ton. I've cut masters and demos in Nashville in a similar fashion and with the right players it's just such a blast. You feel your songs coming alive.

I didn't watch it to the end yet, but typically there's more to making a master recording than just cutting one or two live-in-the-studio takes then mixing. But with a top-notch rhythm section there's a whole lot less editing of drums and bass.

[MichaelK]

And by the way: Absolutely true that there are as many ways to make records as there are records. I just dug that video 'cuz it was representative of the best of (what I think of as) a Nashville-style session, and a particularly good one at that.

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by LSchefman
Sheesh! You guys take offhand remarks and titles so seriously!

I dunno, Les. There are a lot of unchallenged notions about a lot of stuff flying around TGP all the time. I didn't read loudboy's remarks as "offhand". While you can feel free to second guess what the original post meant, i think its a bit much to expect the same of others.

[Mondoslug]

Originally posted by MichaelK
And by the way: Absolutely true that there are as many ways to make records as there are records. I just dug that video 'cuz it was representative of the best of (what I think of as) a Nashville-style session, and a particularly good one at that.

Yeah, I was kind of confusing it for a Kenny Chesney session for a minute.


Don't jump my sh*t, just trying to make a funny.

[LSchefman]

>>I didn't read loudboy's remarks as "offhand". While you can feel free to second guess what the original post meant, i think its a bit much to expect the same of others<<

Having read loudboy's posts on other threads, it seems to me that the guy has a lot of sense and doesn't speak in absolutes.

Just my two cents.

Anyway, enjoy arguing over nothing.

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by LSchefman

Anyway, enjoy arguing over nothing.

Of course - i'm trying to become an artist.

[loudboy]

Originally posted by Bassomatic
I dunno, Les. There are a lot of unchallenged notions about a lot of stuff flying around TGP all the time. I didn't read loudboy's remarks as "offhand". While you can feel free to second guess what the original post meant, i think its a bit much to expect the same of others.

I'm all for whatever gets the job done. If I thought that there was only one way to make a record, I'd have to find a real job...

My point was that I don't really think it would've made for a better record if, after they had tracked it, they had massaged the crap out of it in PT, lined up every drum hit and pitch-corrected every vocal, like they feel the need to do to most mainstream Nashville productions. Which, IMHO, are some of the most soulless things ever to hit CD. It's too bad, because everyone down there can really play - just listen to some of the pre-PT productions, or even pre-multitrack ones. Or hit the clubs on Lower Broadway, if you want to eat a big slice of humble pie... <g>

I get the opportunity to work with a wide variety of "artists" - none are any more or less valid than the other, whatever tools they choose to make their statement. We've done both live to 2-track with a fretless banjo player/singer AND a band that had over 100 tracks of audio (no MIDI or sequences) on each song. Both records are great...

Sorry if you took this as a "challenge" - I just thought it was a cool vid about how an artist I really admire made her record...

Loudboy

[LSchefman]

>>Of course - i'm trying to become an artist<<

Seems to me like you made the leap a long time ago, based on your work.

I'm going to go play the guitar and pretend I'm one. :)

[loudboy]

Originally posted by splatt

since they were clearly not all playing in the same room, i wonder if the final mixes were actually done w/o PT choppage, w/o AutoTune, w/o overdubs, w/o part replacement, etc?
but, it doesn't really matter to me:
i do enjoy when people play *together*, however it finally winds up.

dt / spltrcl

Exactly - the record sounds like it, too. Even though they may have done a little "doctoring." I doubt they did much to Shelby's vocals, tho - she's got a voice and a half... Her sister Allison Moorer did a record that had a "No Pitch Correction" sticker on it, and her singing was dead nuts. It was slick production, but it stil felt real.

OTOH, most of those "New Nashville" records are a little too perfect for my tastes. Faith Hill and Tim McGraw sound like robots, after they get thru with 'em.

yeah, i do that, sometimes..... mostly to play, though:

My point, exactly.

There's guys playin' for tips at Tootsie's that would make most of the rest of us run right up a tree... <g>

didn't really seem like a 'challenge', frankly: just an opportunity for a potentially interesting sideband of philosophical repartée.
dt / spltrcl

Definitely - it sure beats talking about soundcards... <g>

Drifting here, but I think the reason we all obsess so much about gear is that we can't talk in any quantifiable way about what music itself consists of. The type of transistor Jimi had in his Fuzzface at the BOG shows doesn't really factor into the way I feel when he hits that note in "Machine Gun."

Loudboy

[SturmerChilton]

Originally posted by LSchefman
>>anyways:
music is serious, no?<<

No. Serious it can be, but not always.

I'm very close to my well-known artist (painting and sculpture) brother, and to many other artists. Artists share a certain penchant for disagreeing over semantics. For an artist to simply agree with someone would waste a golden opportunity to reinforce one's artistic gravamen and expound on one's philosophy.

I am not an artist. I don't want to be one. I already have enough trouble. Artists are hard to get along with.

It's fairly clear to me that Loudboy's post was an expression of his enthusiasm over a kind of recording process, and not a pronouncement for all time about the nature of recording music. I'm one hundred percent sure that this fact was not lost on you.

But why waste an opportunity to be disagreeable? You're an artist! ;)

And yes, I'm purposely giving you a hard time just for the sheer hell of it. :D

Well if I came off like that I certainly apologize. I didn't mean to. I'm just very close to Nashville and some of the stuff that goes on up there really gets on my nerves. It's that very relaxed atmosphere but it's also very fake in a way and it bothers me. So I may have been a bit defensive. This could be the reason that they were recording in California. :D

I understand a lot of people love the music that comes out of Nashville and the way they run business and recording but I personally hate it and hate the fact that a lot of people think it is a standard and that's exactly how it's got to be done. When I hear her talking and saying "cats" and "pickers" it reminds me of pretentious Nashville guys.

Sadly I think the greatest music and recordings DO happen in Nashville, they just get overshadowed by the mainstream CMT type stuff.

[Greggy]

Originally posted by splatt
or, are you *secretly* studying to PASS THE BAR?
;)
dt / spltrcl

The artists who are in charge of drafting the artists' bar exam are still arguing over the details. I understand they are calling in the lawyers to settle the dispute. Stay tuned!:eek:

[LSchefman]

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LSchefman
Artists!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawyers!

dt / spltrcl<<

Actually, after giving it much thought, I decided NOT to practice law again.

So I'm either wishy-washy, very weird, or both.

[Mondoslug]

Sadly I think the greatest music and recordings DO happen in Nashville, they just get overshadowed by the mainstream CMT type stuff.

The last few Alison Krauss albums.

[Tim Bowen]

Interesting video, interesting thread. I'd cast my vote with those that say there's more than one way to skin a cat. As long as a record has vibe, it doesn't matter to me how it was constructed. I'm not inherently opposed to cutting and pasting, be it for "artistic" purposes, or for "fixes", although I don't do it myself. Some tunes scream for a minimalist approach, and some tunes sound barren without double tracking, layering, and textures. Some tunes call for strict track separation, and some benefit from good ol' greasy old school track bleed. Some projects are best approached with minimal preparation or knowledge of the tunes in advance of the sessions, and some projects will fall apart without a highly methodical approach. There are many, many ways to achieve "vibe". The best approach is to choose whatever M.O. works best for the personalities of the musicians involved, as well as the personality of the music (be it "songs", "pieces", "compositions", or "whatevers").

My pop rock band is working on its third record, this being the first that's self-produced. Our beloved old 2" machine finally nickeled and dimed us to death, so we replaced it with a Mackie digital 24 track system. No Pro Tools though. So there's punches here and there, but no cutting and pasting. We don't all live in the same town, so it's often necessary that we come in and cut tracks on our own, when it's convenient. We usually cut with a live nucleus, but if we get the drums, that's enough, it's time well spent. I react to a drum track, whether I was in the room when it was cut, or whether I'm overdubbing to it. One guy we never cut with the live basics is our bass guy/multi-instrumentalist. He never gets his best stuff "live", so why fight it. Usually the "scratch" tracks will yield some keepers here and there... a vocal, a guitar.

The other ongoing project I'm involved in is an Americana record that's being cut in Nashville. Basic tracks are going down first, and I (as well as a few guests) will come in after the fact to overdub. The guy that's producing that record has played on records by Tori Amos, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, The Eagles, Emmylou Harris, Buddy Miller, Roy Orbison, Gram Parsons, Billy Preston, The Rolling Stones, Michelle Shocked, Steven Stills, James Taylor, Doc Watson, Joe Walsh, and many, many others. His playing is "rootsy" or "traditional". However, his approach to production and engineering is quite the opposite. The guy has a very quick mind, and a knack for getting great sounds and performances from musicians in a ridiculously efficient manner. If he likes the vibe of a take, he'll do anything to save it - cut, paste, punch, whatever. He punches drum fills. Yes, they sound goofy and cartoonish at first. But he tweaks them with Pro Tools until it "sounds like a band". However the guy chooses to get from point A to point B is fine by me. He calls the shots. He's been involved with some of the coolest records of all time.

The thing I most often find myself at odds about with folks in the recording environment is that of ambience and electric guitars. Conventional wisdom is that tracks should be cut dry, such that all options are open at mixdown. However, even the best outboard digital reverbs and delays, as superimposed on a previously cut guitar track, lack that lovely smear of a fantastic sounding delay into the front end of a pushed tube amp. Or a great sounding amp reverb. I suppose my opinion would be different if I were doing ethereal ambient music. Not once have I ever preferred the sound of time-based effects added after the fact, so I always just take my time with the mix levels and tempos, and print the stuff. My other consideration there is purely logistical. I don't know if I'll be involved at mixdown or not, and I don't want to leave ambience choices up to the whims of an engineer. I'm clearly in the minority on this one... I think it's pretty much Skunk Baxter and meself against the world.

I only own one Shelby Lynne record (I am Shelby Lynne), and I enjoy it very much. Whatever gets you from here to there is fine. You just need to trust your own ears and instincts, and hook up with like-minded folks, whatever your target may be.

$.02

[Mondoslug]

Whose producing you and where are you cutting at? Can you say...just curious. TIA.

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
I'd cast my vote with those that say there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Was there a vote? This is kinda funny, because I didn't read where anybody said otherwise!!

A lot of small funky "studios" in Nashville are houses just like that. When I was talking about what I felt was a good example of the best type of a Nashville-style session, I didn't mean anything over-edited or sterile. I meant having five guys in three different rooms laying down great tracks, in time and in tune. Just one or two takes, done. You get the right five guys and it's great!

Does that mean there's no editing? Sh*t no.

[Tim Bowen]

Hi Mondo, I sent a message to you.

Hi Michael, I think the term "vote" might perhaps be taken out of context. The only reference I made to Nashville was with regard to my own situation. My comments were merely to suggest that there is generally no "right or wrong" way to make a great recording. None of my comments were directly in response to any particular thoughts expressed here; they were more or less my general thoughts on a subject that I find interesting. I love a bunch of guys laying tracks "live"! Always a treat. But so also is/was Steely Dan's approach a treat (to me). Depends on the tuneage and vibe at hand, as always.

[Tim Bowen]

By the way, Mondoslug, checked out one of your tunes, very nice! Definitely reminds me of the Dregs, but the underlying harmony reminds me of some of Scofield's more gospel-tinged stuff. Pardon if I've missed it entirely, but either way, very cool! I likes.

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
My comments were merely to suggest that there is generally no "right or wrong" way to make a great recording.
I was responding to a bunch of comments, not just yours. Yours just got singled out for the quote because it was the latest. :)

[Mondoslug]

Hey Tim, thanks for the words & good luck with your project!

[Tim Bowen]

<|8^)