best attenuator for bedroom use

[johnny5]

i know it's been asked but which attenuator would you recomend for bedroom use? i have a couple of smaller tube amps that are just too friggin loud to play at home (15W).

i have only tried a weber mini mass and it sort of adds this fizzy component that is really annoying.

i figure i'll just drop some cash to get one that works well.

any thoughts? i'm pretty much considerig THD & DrZ.

[aleclee]

IMO, they all start going south at about 12dB of attenuation.

In other words, they all suck a fair bit of tone at bedroom levels.

[JoyfulNoise]

The Koch Loadbox 120 II is a really transparent sounding attenuator that has a lot of extra features such as speaker emulator DI and headphone outputs. A bit pricey though, and at that price you could buy yourself a small practice tube amp. It is worth it though.

http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/KochLoadboxIIBig.jpg

[big hair]

I use a THD hotplate to attenuate my 100w plexi. Ok -16db might sound a bit wishy washy but still useable with 100w plexi - I'm sure the device will cope with a 15w amp just fine.

[Blueser]

I have come to the realization that NO attenuator sounds good at bedroom volumes. They ALL get fizzy when you attenuate an amp very aggressively.

A better approach is to get an amp with a great master volume.

[pureoldsound]

Get an amp with a PPIMV.....I sometimes prefer that over an attenuator.....

[Timster]

what about the Ultimate attenuator?

[SQUAREHEAD]

Originally posted by pureoldsound
Get an amp with a PPIMV.....I sometimes prefer that over an attenuator.....


Agreed.

[908SSP]

Originally posted by Timster
what about the Ultimate attenuator?

Yea that does the best job in my opinion for really low level playing but since it is a reamp system many will argue it isn't an attenuator. It is very expensive as well.

For the same money you can buy a modeling amp and have an approximation of any amp you want at bedroom levels. ;)

[Tom CT]

I know this doesn't really answer your question, but I'd be more inclined to spend the money on a good OD pedal. As has generally been decided, attenuators don't sound their best at super-quiet, bedroom levels. Of course, that's not really what they're designed for.

Since you own 15-watt tube amps, if and when you play out, you might not need the attenuator, and you'll have the option of dialing in some great OD tones with your pedal. More tone options! :)

[RobertMiller]

Originally posted by Flavum
[B]I know this doesn't really answer your question, but I'd be more inclined to spend the money on a good OD pedal.

I use my Airbrake to take a little off and then adjust volume with an OD, compressor, or some other pedal in the chain. It works great for keeping volume down with my K60. Past a certain level, no form of attenuation will be truly transparent. Probably a combination of effect on tone and moving a lot less air with the speakers.

[big mike]

Weber MASS

No attenuator sounds great at low volumes /high attenuation but the Mini MASS I have sounds the least bad.

[Daddy Elmis]

I've owned the Airbrake and the main Weber models (full size mass, mini mass and load dump).

If the mini mass isn't doing it for you, I think you are probably using lots of attenuation and none of the "good" attenuators out there are really going to sound much better (as always, YMMV and others will disagree) at extreme levels of attenuation.

I found very little difference between the Airbrake and the Weber products, except the Airbrake was considerably more expensive and less versatile (i.e., different impedence handling).

Attenuators are really designed to knock a few dB off the amp to control stage volume at the gig or rehearsal. Getting even a 15 watt tube amp to true "bedroom" level is going to be very tough without killing the tone. I play a Pro Jr. (15 watts), a Marshall DSL201 (20 watts) and Reverend Goblin (5/15 watts) and the Goblin is the only one that doesn't have an attenuator (because you can switch to 5 watt mode on the fly).

[John Phillips]

By common agreement, no attenuator sounds that great when cutting a cranked big amp down to bedroom volume.

But using a dummy load and then re-amping can sound very good.

The interesting thing is that from the point of view of the amp, these are the same thing. Feeding a tiny bit of power out (less than 1%, with a typical big amp and typical bedroom volume) to drive a speaker as opposed to an even tinier bit to generate a signal and drive another amp will make no significant difference to the response of the amp. And yet the two methods don't sound the same...

So it's the effect of the attenuator on the speaker that results in the bad tone, not its effect on the amp.

I'd guess that it's either because the speaker is more heavily damped at high attenuator settings, or being driven from too high-impedance a source... I don't know, but it does explain why using a MV amp with the MV down a fair way and less attenuation can sound better than a non-MV amp with heavy attenuation - even though all the distortion is coming from the preamp in the first case.

I've certainly found that combining more than one method - pedals, preamp distortion/MV, PPIMV, attenuator - or even more than two, gives better results than trying to do it all with just one.

IMO, anyway.

[pureoldsound]

I have to agree with John's solution...I've tried the PPIMV with a Boost and a weber load dump and the results have been good. Now I am getting a another amp so that I can use the same method I've been using but use the line out of the Weber and slave the new amp using the FX loop return......

[johnny5]

geez, thanks for all the responses.

i know it's not going to sound terrific. in fact i expect the highs to be knocked off and for the amp to get that weird compression / gate thing that happens. BUT, my 50W Mini Mass is adding this fizz / buzz thing that is really distracting.

i do play with a band so i actually use these amps but sometimes it's fun to use the stuff at home.

BTW, the one amp i have kept though all this GAS is my Peavey Classic 30. that is such a killer practice / home amp. no need for an attenuator, just turn it down.

[jokerjkny]

no comparison... THD Hotplate

it can be used as a dummy load, so you can practically set it to near silent levels. and the bright / deep switches work fine.

works for most P&W gigs i do, and Lawdy knows, i'm always told to keep it down. ;)

[Speed_Racer71]

i got a question---
what if you get an amp that is switcable 100w/50w..and when you use different wattage settings dont you have to change the ohms on the spk right? so if you get a hotplate, they only come in a set ohm rating..right? but if i buy the standard weber mass it has a switch for all the ohms setting...4,6.8,16....so if i buy the the hoplate im stuck at using one setting? educate me on this..because ive never used an attenuator:confused:

[jokerjkny]

gooooood question...

[Speed_Racer71]

my brain hurts lol:dude

[Daddy Elmis]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
no comparison... THD Hotplate

it can be used as a dummy load, so you can practically set it to near silent levels. and the bright / deep switches work fine.

works for most P&W gigs i do, and Lawdy knows, i'm always told to keep it down. ;)

This is one of the reasons Weber stuff caught on so well early -- you could buy one attenuator and use it on multiple amps of different impedence loads. I was using one on a Bassman (2ohm), Marshall (16 ohm) and a Pro Jr. (8 ohm). Couldn't do that with the Hotplate (at much greater cost I might add).

While you can use a higher load than the amp's rated for (i.e, 16 ohm load on an amp rated for 8 ohms) it will negatively affect power and tone.

[Tom CT]

I mentioned this in a thread some months ago, but I feel it bears repeating.

I own two Hot Plates and a Weber MASS 100, and unfortunately, each has its drawbacks. The Hot Plates have detents (individual "clicks") of attenuation. All too often, one click will not be enough attenuation, while the next is too much. Of course, you can adjust your amp's volume to compensate, but this defeats the purpose of setting your amp where it sounds ideal, and attenuating the volume to the desired level. It's frustrating and happens all too often.

The Weber MASS offers a smooth sweep of attenuation, but even with it set for no attenuation, there's still a significant loss of volume compared to having the unit's bypass mode switched on. It's still attenuating the signal when it's set not to. Also an unfortunate design, as I sometimes need a very small amount of attenuation that falls between the "minimum" and "bypass" levels.

Just passing on some info - Tom

[Scumback Speakers]

Originally posted by BrewBeck
headphones
+1 on the headphones.

If you're playing that low at home, there are lots of solutions like that, use it with a Rockman, POD, modeling pedal, etc. and you're good to go. You bother no one. That's one reason why I have the Marshall MS-2 battery powered amp. Plug in your phones and instant bedroom amp for $29.

It's my portable 1/2 stack. ;)

[jokerjkny]

Originally posted by Daddy Elmis
This is one of the reasons Weber stuff caught on so well early -- you could buy one attenuator and use it on multiple amps of different impedence loads. I was using one on a Bassman (2ohm), Marshall (16 ohm) and a Pro Jr. (8 ohm). Couldn't do that with the Hotplate (at much greater cost I might add).

While you can use a higher load than the amp's rated for (i.e, 16 ohm load on an amp rated for 8 ohms) it will negatively affect power and tone.

maybe...

the weber's are still "wattage" dependent, i.e. there are 25, 50, and 100 watt models.

one or the other...

[gkelm]

My 2 cents...I've had both Weber & Airbrake, and prefer the latter for the tone, construction, and flexibility with impedance. I still usually end up goosing with an OD pedal...which in the end may work for you, period.
Greg

[Unburst]

I've had great results loading down an amp and reamping it.

I used to record through my Marshall 50w MV cranked into a load then line out to the power amp in of a MESA Caliber.
Sounded great for lead stuff but not punchy enough for rhythm.

For bedroom playing I'd be inclined to go with a modelling sretup.

[flatfinger]

For bedroom playing I'd be inclined to go with a modelling sretup


YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tubes are for gigs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[daddyo]

I have a YCV40, a Weber MASS 50, some pedals, and a Roland Cube 30. I find that for actual practising, ie: you want reasonable tone so you can learn a song or get better at a lick, go with the Cube 30. It costs less than some of those attenuators and actually sounds pretty decent on most of the models. Now, if you are a tone junky and spend a lot of time experimenting with cool sound, then get the attenuator. I find I can get lost for hours just foolin with cool sounds and tone. It is almost and end in itself.:cool:

[malabarmusic]

Had a Hot Plate
Had a MASS
Had a rack
Had a 20-watt tube amp
Had a 6-watt tube amp
Had a 1-watt tube amp
Had a solid state amp
Had a modeling amp
Had a mini practice amp
Had a headphone amp
Thought about doing a load box/re-amp rig ...

I finally gave up and decided to change the "bedroom" instead of the amp.

I bought a new house, with a big and deep unfinished basement fitted with glass block windows.

Now when I crank my 100-watt Hiwatt, I'm happy, the neighbors are happy, the sun shines more brightly, and the birds sing more sweetly.

Yes, the house cost as much as a '59 LP, but I can sleep in it and the loan interest is tax deductible. :cool:

I've ended my personal 20-year quest for the next best solution to the tone/volume conundrum, and (big surprise) I've found myself playing more and playing better.

If I needed to knock off a few dBs to avoid ear-ringing, I would -- in order -- consider (1) lower wattage amp; (2) running a load box in parallel with the speaker cab; (3) fewer speakers; (4) less efficient speakers; (5) smaller speakers; (6) an attenuator.

I still put an attenuator on the list, because some players on this board whose tone production and ears I respect swear by them. :)

- DB

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by John Phillips
You can do it by changing the impedance on the amp: set the amp to half the impedance of the Hotplate if you're running at half power. This is effectively the same as doubling the impedance of the Hotplate. It doesn't matter what impedance speaker you're using because when you're attenuated, the Hotplate is the load on the amp, not the speaker.

Alternatively, if the amp has a fixed impedance, get a Hotplate of twice the impedance of the amp in full power mode. This will be safe in either setting, since you can use a Hotplate of one step greater impedance than the amp - but not the other way round.
Well yes and no.
Lets use a twin as an example.
If you yank two tubes it's not gonna double the impedance. It'll take to something like 1.6 times the impedance.
And if you use it with the build in speakers it'll still see those 4 ohms as well.
Also since as a rule when you yank tubes to cut power you going to have less strain on the transformer the likelyhood of it overheating is zilch.
personally I'd go with the right impedance and mismtach down.
Especially on Fender style amps.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by John Phillips
Yes, but you can use the 100W model at any power below that, so it becomes universal. Power ratings are an upper limit, not a 'match'.

One thing that's very important to know is that there is NO hard-and-fast rule about matching across all attenuators. It depends on the design - how closely (or otherwise) the attenuator matches the impedance curve of a real speaker, and they all vary.

Two examples:

The THD Hotplate is in fact lower impedance than a real speaker at some frequencies, especially with the Deep and Bright switches engaged. This means that it's perfectly safe to use with an amp of (one step) lower impedance, but NOT with one that's higher - because the real load is then further away from matching than you think it is.

The Marshall Powerbrake is the other way round - higher impedance than a real speaker at high frequencies. This means that you shouldn't use it with an amp of lower impedance than the attenuator (ie 2 or 4 ohms, since it has 8 and 16 settings).

Confusing... and there's no way of being sure without knowing the true impedance characteristics of the particular attenuator you're using.

There is also a few models that claims to be 'universal', but in fact they aren't, no matter what the makers say. They're still a single impedance, and although they will work with others, you are mismatching, and there's potential for damage.

It's most critical when you're cranking the amp full BTW - less so if you're using the amp well below full power.
Except that most folks that by attenuators by them rated for watt they think their amps are. As in "I have a 100 watt Marshall I'll get a 100 watt attenuator".
Ans as you know a JMP can do 150 watts any day of the week.

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Except that most folks that by attenuators by them rated for watt they think their amps are. As in "I have a 100 watt Marshall I'll get a 100 watt attenuator".
Ans as you know a JMP can do 150 watts any day of the week.
True! But IMO any attenuator that claims to be a "100W" model should be able to take the full continuous output of any "100W" amp ever made, no matter that it means that its real rating must be higher... that's just good conservative rating practice.

BTW, can you explain why removing two power tubes increases the output impedance by 1.6 times, not twice? I always thought that since the two pairs of tubes are in parallel, they have half the impedance of one pair. Not calling you out, I want to know if I've got something wrong!

[gkelm]

Originally posted by John Phillips


There is also a few models that claims to be 'universal', but in fact they aren't, no matter what the makers say. They're still a single impedance, and although they will work with others, you are mismatching, and there's potential for damage.

It's most critical when you're cranking the amp full BTW - less so if you're using the amp well below full power.

Could you comment on the Z Airbrake? What to avoid to minimize potential problems other than diming the amp?

I typically don't dime the amp anyway...usually under half volume, and back it off a couple clicks on the Z from "this hurts my ears" level down to "I can almost hear myself yell!" levels.
Greg

[John Phillips]

The Airbrake is a purely resistive unit - not quite like a real speaker. Its actual resistance varies a little depending on how much attenuation it's set to, but it's closest to an 8-ohm speaker in terms of resistance over the whole frequency range. In the manual it suggests to set some vintage amps (AC30s, Marshalls etc which are known to have slightly more fragile transformers) to 8 ohms rather than 16 if you're going to be playing fully cranked. Apart from that, I wouldn't worry about it.

[gkelm]

Thanks John.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by John Phillips
True! But IMO any attenuator that claims to be a "100W" model should be able to take the full continuous output of any "100W" amp ever made, no matter that it means that its real rating must be higher... that's just good conservative rating practice.

BTW, can you explain why removing two power tubes increases the output impedance by 1.6 times, not twice? I always thought that since the two pairs of tubes are in parallel, they have half the impedance of one pair. Not calling you out, I want to know if I've got something wrong!
Short explanation...bacause a transformer also imparts its own currve onto the equation. 2:1 on the one side doesn't end up being 2:1 on the other. Just as impedance to begin with is a 3 dimensional thing. But this is getting where i'm out of my depth and I have to drag the boss in for an explanation...so that'll have to wait.

[papa taco]

I've just got to say that using the Hotplate as a load and lining out to another power amp has worked wonders for low volume playing for me. Better tone than the -16 db settings on the hotplate, most definitely. I'm using a Mesa Blue Angel's dual 6v6 power amp section as the power amp and it's nice, the Mesa's quad of el84's don't sound great in this application though. I'm considering a Carvin solid state power amp or something for a bit more "transparency".

[bobbtoz]

I've just sort of bounced around in this thread, but here are two suggestions not related to attenuators.

1. Vox Valvetronix amps sound great at bedroom volumes.

2. Bogner Shiva-this amp has a great master volume taper. I can get a big fat tone out of this head at television volume. Putting a good boost in front of this amp only makes things better.

[grism]

Originally posted by papa taco
I've just got to say that using the Hotplate as a load and lining out to another power amp has worked wonders for low volume playing for me. Better tone than the -16 db settings on the hotplate, most definitely.

I whole-heartedly agree with this approach, and here is the thread that got me started with this. Blistering Modded Marshall tones at Low Volumes? (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61304)

I got a cheap ($160) Tube Works MosValve amp from ebay to use as a pretty transparant power amp for this idea and it works really well. I can now crank open the MV on any of my amps to get some fat and juicy power tube distortion at conversation levels. Works well with my entire current (small :() lineup of amps, but I imagine that it would work well for ANY amp that connects its speakers with a panel-mounted jack. If your amp doesn't have a line-out, then use the line-out on the hotplate or Weber MASS or whatever, using the attenuator as a dummy load. The MASS also has bass/mid/treble tone pots to tweak the signal as well.

Obviously this is still not the perfect solution but it sounds worlds better than an amp through an attenuator.

I bought the power amp so that I didn't have to tie up any of my amps for this purpose, but the power section of another amp will work fine.

Peace and tone....

Michael G.

[johnny5]

Originally posted by grism
I whole-heartedly agree with this approach, and here is the thread that got me started with this. Blistering Modded Marshall tones at Low Volumes? (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61304)

I got a cheap ($160) Tube Works MosValve amp from ebay to use as a pretty transparant power amp for this idea and it works really well. I can now crank open the MV on any of my amps to get some fat and juicy power tube distortion at conversation levels. Works well with my entire current (small :() lineup of amps, but I imagine that it would work well for ANY amp that connects its speakers with a panel-mounted jack. If your amp doesn't have a line-out, then use the line-out on the hotplate or Weber MASS or whatever, using the attenuator as a dummy load. The MASS also has bass/mid/treble tone pots to tweak the signal as well.

Obviously this is still not the perfect solution but it sounds worlds better than an amp through an attenuator.

I bought the power amp so that I didn't have to tie up any of my amps for this purpose, but the power section of another amp will work fine.

Peace and tone....

Michael G.


thats a great idea. i tried it with my Weber Mini Mass and the line out level seems to be VERY high. too high to plug into the input of another amp by far and pretty much too high to go into the "return" of the effects loop. does the THD have a good line out?

thanks for all the responses.

[papa taco]

Originally posted by johnny5
thats a great idea. i tried it with my Weber Mini Mass and the line out level seems to be VERY high. too high to plug into the input of another amp by far and pretty much too high to go into the "return" of the effects loop. does the THD have a good line out?

thanks for all the responses.

Yes it does. I sure don't have to turn the knob very much to get a strong signal so be careful, but yeah it's pretty easy to tweek to just the right level for your needs.

That said, I'm tempted to get a "tranparent" solid state power amp (and use it's volume knob as well).

[musicdog400]

Originally posted by johnny5
thats a great idea. i tried it with my Weber Mini Mass and the line out level seems to be VERY high

I bet you could fix this with a couple resistors, making a voltage divider. Since this would be on the output side of the attenuator, we don't need to worry about the impedance. My line level stuff generally sends out about 1 volt peak to peak.

I own the Weber Mass and also have built a few attenuators. They all seem to lose a bit of treble. The last one I built has treble boost, but it comes at the cost of not loading the high frequencies as much, which makes the load less inductive and probably less healthy for the amp.

If you are looking for an attenuator for bedroom use you may want to consider what the minimum volume is on the attenuator. One thing that annoys me about the mass is that even at its lowest setting, it is still moderately loud. The ones I built go down to zero (silence).

[grism]

Originally posted by johnny5
too high to plug into the input of another amp by far and pretty much too high to go into the "return" of the effects loop. does the THD have a good line out?

I can't understand why the DI signal from the miniMASS would be too high for an effects loop return of amp #2, but a signal guru I am not :cool: . Given all of the boosting of a signal that can occur in an effects loop, the return should be able to handle a pretty hot signal indeed. I can't speak for the line-out of the hotplate from personal experience, but I have read online (HC reviews I think) that others have used its line-out with a good amount of success.

Michael

[Orren]

Originally posted by John Phillips
True! But IMO any attenuator that claims to be a "100W" model should be able to take the full continuous output of any "100W" amp ever made, no matter that it means that its real rating must be higher... that's just good conservative rating practice.

But the Weber MASS is a single speaker cone, that can handle a 100W peak signal. When an amp is rated at 100W, that is often 100W RMS. I don't think there is any single speaker cone that can handle, for example, a 180W peak from an Überschall--that's why the Übercab has some outrageous wattage handling, so that whatever the monentary peaks, it's distributed among its speakers harmlessly.

I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Orren

[Daddy Elmis]

Originally posted by johnny5
thats a great idea. i tried it with my Weber Mini Mass and the line out level seems to be VERY high. too high to plug into the input of another amp by far and pretty much too high to go into the "return" of the effects loop. does the THD have a good line out?

Try emailing Ted Weber and ask what the level of the line out is. I'm surprised it's that hot. I've used the DI output from my Full Sized Mass straight to my Mackie Board and it doesn't require much/any padding. Not to state the obvious, but you're sure you used the DI out and not the speaker out?

[5150loveeddie]

I had red plating with my THD a few times, but only when at room level, is that normal?? How about power scaling versus the other methods??