Stainless steel frets

[PlexiBreath]

I've heard a couple luthiers complain that SS frets make the tone painfully bright, but I tend to be very rough on frets and it would be nice to have something that would wear a lot longer. Are they really as bright as some say they are?

[Stan Malinowski]

This topic has been discussed at great lenth over at the Anderson Forum. The general consensus over there is the effect of ss frets on tone is miniscule (with a capital M). I have Anderson Classics with both ss and normal frets and I don't detect any difference.

Tom Anderson himself and Roy Fought from Anderson have the most sensitive ears that I have ever experienced, both feel there is no effect on tone due to the ss frets.

[davesee]

i don't have any experience playing on ss frets yet, but i can tell you that as an apprentice luthier, they kill tools...which may be why your luthier is not to hip to them.

[GuitarNorton]

I had my Les Paul refretted with them and they don't seem bright to me. Wonderfully smooth to bend on and are showing no wear at all. I was worried about them wearing strings out quickly, but I've had Snake Oils on for months and they are holding up fine.

[VaughnC]

I think we all hear things a little differently. However, with the stainless steel equipped guitars I've played I detected a very slight pingyness in the very top end....almost like someone turned up the presence control on my amp one notch. It's subtle, but there....at least to my ears.

[mattmccloskey]

SS frets are great, they last, they are smooth to bend on, they shine and don't tarnish. I don't think the tone really changes much at all. Andersons that use SS frets might seem a touch brighter than fenders, for example, but it is not because of the frets, it is because of the bridge. The bridge and saddles make the difference. I have 2 suhrs with SS frets, both alder with rosewood boards. One has the fishman made trem, the other a brass saddle tele bridge. The one with brass saddle tele bridge is darker, despite the same woods, frets, etc. I also have another strat with SS frets, but a callaham trem. It sounds darker as well, with a softer attack. I think people play guitars with SS frets that also have non-vintage type hardware and it sounds brighter, so they think it is the frets.

[Shovelhead]

If there's a difference in tone, I think it's WAY less than the difference between a new set of strings and a set that has seen a couple of nights at the club.

My Anderson with stainless frets is less bright than my Warmoth with identical pickups.

I think the longevity of stainless frets is a huge advantage. I treat them carefully because of what John said about getting a nick in them. I always use the included fret protecter that shipped with the Anderson.

[Diablo]

I have been using stainless steel frets for the last 4-5 years. I had to have it made in Germany since it wasn't available at that time. It's fantastic! It is pure stainless steel. I think it's 304 or 316 stainless. Possibly 303 but I think it's 304. I love it. It's hell on tools and makes fretwork take about 4 times as long. The end result is great though so I think it's worth it.

I had a guy in Los Angeles who wore out his frets in just a year or so. I looked into metals and finally decided on SS. Had to have it made but it worked out great. On his second guitar, he's played it to death and says that there is no fretwear that he can see. Since then, I put it on every guitar and can't really tell a sonic difference. It just makes them play better. It's hard on tools and your hands though. I had to get some tools to cut it without using your hands. Lever slicers to cut it to length and all carbide and diamonds. Otherwise, you had to make 24 cuts, then 48 more with had tools and SS is tough stuff.

[shallbe]

No negatives with SS frets. I have one Anderson with them, and had an older Anderson refretted with them. The guitar now sounds the same, but plays so much easier. If you are a big string bender, these are the way to go-----no question. The multiple benefits (durability, feel, no tarnish) FAR outweigh imagined negatives, IMO.

This is a real advance in guitar construction, but not everyone is welcome to change.

[JustPlay]

This is a real advance in guitar construction, but not everyone is welcome to change. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree~:cool:

[Strung Up]

Love the feel (especially bending, where all reports of the ease hold true for me, but even without bending, the guitars just seem to take a lighter touch), LOVE the durability (long run = less cost for fret levels/Pleks/refrets).

Just can't seem to get past that little bit of 'zing' that I hear on top playing clean, especially with the treble rolled down for jazz playing. Similar to previous post about 'presence' on an amp. Mind you, this is less discernable (and even desirable as a bluesy 'bite') with any grit or O/D on full-on guitar tone pot settings, but for clean playing with the treble rolled off, these frets seem to me to add some presence that won't go away.

[mattmccloskey]

strung up, what guitar is it, and what is the bridge?

[Strung Up]

1 swamp ash/maple strat with strat single coils, 1 hollow mahogany/ mahogany&Brazilian Strat w/ 'buckers; each by (different) notable builders. Both bridges are Gotoh 1088's.

[mude]

Luckily it is a choice at a place like Suhr. My Suhr has them and I am pretty sure I will get them on any guitar that I can. I like the feel and durability. I have not noticed a tonal difference, although I have not spent time looking for one either. I like the sound of the guitar that they are on, but that is just part of an overall package that I selected.

Evan.

[PlexiBreath]

Thanks for everyones opinion! Normally I would play and decide myself but I have no access to a SS fret guitar. To me, unless the brightness was so strident as to noticeably compromise the tone, I'd prefer the longer fret life of stainless steel.

I have noticed in the past that even with regular nickel silver frets, that the larger the fret there is a brighter coldness to the tone. And from my understanding you can't get SS in vintage size fret material, the smallest is the skinny tall frets. Is this so? If so, it might explain the brightness of a comparison between the small vintage style frets and larger SS frets, maybe if SS were available in the smaller vintage size, the slight brightness would be negated.

[AJ Love]

There must be a small tonal difference, even if very minimal.

Perhaps the difference is for the better even but its hard to imagine (and somewhat illogical) that there wouldn't be at least a very slight tonal difference

[Raoul Duke]

I wish one of our onboard luthiers here would refret a guitar with half nickel/half SS frets...ya know 1,3,5, etc SS and 2,4,6, etc nickel...or instead of alternating, do groups of 3 or 4 frets in each metal and alternate those. Then you can do chords where each note is using only one alloy...then you'd have 'em side by side and any differences would be OBVIOUS!;)

[AJ Love]

Originally posted by Suhr
Well I do have customers who swear they hear a difference and they are great players, Landau, Henderson, Lee Wertman to name a few. I'm not saying there isnt a difference, just that I dont really hear it compared to other variables but if these guys hear the difference I believe them.

I think thats the key point: compared to ALOT of other variable, the difference is extremely slight

[fullerplast]

Originally posted by VaughnC
I think we all hear things a little differently. However, with the stainless steel equipped guitars I've played I detected a very slight pingyness in the very top end....almost like someone turned up the presence control on my amp one notch. It's subtle, but there....at least to my ears.

Same here. Loved the feel and the idea of never needing to refret, but swapping necks on the same guitar I heard a high end difference that I never have heard on any other neck swaps. I went back to the stock neck strictly on tonal preference.

Think of it like a fretboard material. You are exchanging "x" grams of one type of metal that are part of your fretboard with "x" grams of another type of metal. It's an integral part of your fretboard and by weight, it's a pretty good percentage. If you can hear the difference between something like an ebony board and a rosewood board you may also be able to hear the difference between fret types and fret sizes. Truss rods, neck wood, fingerboard wood, neck carve, nut material, tuning pegs, neck joint all contribute to a neck's tone, each to a different degree. Fret material is no different IMHO. It's just a matter of degree. You might hear it in some necks and not others.

[ccteleman]

I have a couple of each.

I like the feel of the SS, I like the tone of the standard wire.

The SS to my ear is just a hair bright, Vaughn put it best, like a "ping" on top of the note that you can't get rid of.

But hell John, I'll take one of your guitars with bailing wire....... Pleked of course.



:cool:

[PlexiBreath]

Originally posted by Suhr
So I'm at a cross roads here
I need to order some custom sized Stainless IF I will go that direction. I am totally happy in NOT offering stainless but I wonder how many of you this would bother?
What custom size? I hear it only comes in two sizes, the smallest of which is the skinny/tall. I'm surprised it's not available in the smaller vintage size, like originaly equipt Fender. But if this is what you mean by custom size, that that would be fantastic.

[mude]

So I'm at a cross roads here
I need to order some custom sized Stainless IF I will go that direction. I am totally happy in NOT offering stainless but I wonder how many of you this would bother?



I sure like having SS as an option. Mine has them and I like the feel and the lack of wear.

Evan.

[JoeB63]

All of my guitars with stainless steel frets sound much better than all of my guitars that don't have them.

The difference is obvious and the SS frets sound much better. And I'm sure it the frets that make the difference.

Sweeter, fatter, more rounded tone. Warmer. Better mids, lows and highs. And low-mids and high-mids. And mid-mids.

[mattmccloskey]

JOHN- WHAT?! don't you dare take away my SS frets!! I love the SS 6105's on both my classic and classic T. Every future suhr I order will have SS frets as well. I think you should offer SS in the size of your 'heavy' frets. My old classic had those and I love that size. I don't mind playing on regular frets at all, but I hate getting a level/crown/dress every year and then having to refret after a couple years because the height gets too low for my taste after a couple fret levels.
get some heavy sized SS frets and I will order another guitar with 'em!

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by Suhr
So I'm at a cross roads here
I need to order some custom sized Stainless IF I will go that direction. I am totally happy in NOT offering stainless but I wonder how many of you this would bother?

John,

I have one of your guitars with 6105 SS frets and I have two Tom Andersons with his heavy SS frets. I really love the SS frets - but I prefer the heavy frets to the 6105s. I would not order a new guitar that doesn't have SS frets. I hope you choose to make "heavy" style SS frets available. It's a great differentiator today -- and I really believe that at some point in the future all new gutiars will have SS frets -- as soon as everyone gets past their biases towards all things old and vintage, or all those oldsters die off.

[ccteleman]

as soon as everyone gets past their biases towards all things old and vintage

Its not about a vintage bias to me. Like I said I prefer the feel of the SS, and don't regret ordering the guitar I have with them.

But side by side I like the tone of the guitars I have with out SS. Granted it is sketchy at best to compair any two guitars tone, no less win your talking sutal tone differences.

Sweeter, fatter, more rounded tone. Warmer. Better mids, lows and highs. And low-mids and high-mids. And mid-mids.

I don't know about warmer, more rounded maybe. Kind of more HI-FI

I find to take that "ping" off the top end, is to end up with a darker tone than a I am after, like you have roll a bit more treble off than I mite like.

This is one of those different flavors of vanila things, not vanila to chocolate

[KLB]

Originally posted by Suhr
We do have some Jumbo stainless on the way
6100 style
We might have to charge a little more for them though, they are a bear!

Good deal, John.

I believe you said elsewhere they would be .057 tall before milling. Is this true?

Also, please post here when they are available and you are comfortable offering to the general public for non-Suhr guitars.

Thanks,
Ken

PS - My net buddy Russ is very happy with the non SS 6105 PLEK fretwork you did on his Morgaine LP.

[FredW]

Hey John

I will be your guinea pig for the SS 6100's, I ordered a classic yesterday from Eddie at Indoor Storm (ocean turquoise w/6100's) let me know if they are availible for my guitar.

Thanks , I can't wait!!

[DaveK]

Originally posted by Suhr
So I'm at a cross roads here
I need to order some custom sized Stainless IF I will go that direction. I am totally happy in NOT offering stainless but I wonder how many of you this would bother?

Another vote for SS. I have two Andersons with them and I won't consider a new plank without them.I'm willing to spend more $$ up front since the advantages far outway the cost of a refret every few years chewing thru the standard nickel.
A 6100 size in SS would rock.:dude

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by ccteleman
Its not about a vintage bias to me. Like I said I prefer the feel of the SS, and don't regret ordering the guitar I have with them.

But side by side I like the tone of the guitars I have with out SS. Granted it is sketchy at best to compair any two guitars tone, no less win your talking sutal tone differences.



I don't know about warmer, more rounded maybe. Kind of more HI-FI

I find to take that "ping" off the top end, is to end up with a darker tone than a I am after, like you have roll a bit more treble off than I mite like.

This is one of those different flavors of vanila things, not vanila to chocolate


Dude, I wasn't being serious - I was making a point. Tone is in the ear of the beholder. Just as one person can hear (or think he hears) something negative due to SS frets, another player can hear (or think he hears) that SS frets improve his tone.

I have 3 guitars w/ SS frets and about 12 guitars w/o them - and I can't hear a bit of difference that I can ascribe to the fret material.

Try playing some open string notes on your SS fret guitar. Do you still hear the "ping?" Honestly, does that make it go away?

[mentalfloss]

I'd like to cast another vote in favor of SS frets; I wouldn't buy another guitar without 'em. I'd much rather be playing my instruments than having them maintained.

I was a little concerned in making the switch; the taller SS frets initially felt kinda like speed bumps under my fingertips, but it took me just about ten minutes to adjust.

All else being equal, it makes sense that the harder SS material would be more sonically reflective and less dampening, providing relatively more prominence in the upper reaches of the overtone series. This should even be true for open-strings, given that the string is still bouncing sound waves off the surface if the fretboard, fingered or not. Anybody out there with an advanced degree in acoustical engineering who can weigh in?

That said, I would wager that the tonal difference is so subtle that very, very few could reliably, verifiably detect it (assuming one could set up a controlled experiment for it, a kind of "blind taste test"), especially given the high-frequency hearing loss that modern life (and much pop music performance) gradually imposes on us. The surface and mass of the frets compared to the surface and mass for the rest of the instrument's components which reflect/project/resonate/dampen are pretty close to insignificant.

For myself, I love the sound of SS frets, silvery and bright and overtone-rich. More is better! But it's probably psychological; an aural placebo, the power of suggestion. I'm not trying to pick a fight here; if you're convinced your hearing is that acute, I'm happy for ya . . . but I can't help but be skeptical (don't be insulted), I'm skeptical about too many things, one of my life's great burdens (sob).