Zeppelin Live: The Rain Song - Stairway to Heaven

[cob666]

I'm sure I'm not the only one but I initially learned The Rain Song in standard tuning, it was much later that I found out the tuning was DGCGCD and the song really opened up when played in that tuning. Years ago while trying to play along to the live version from TSRTS I realized that they were playing the song in A instead G and because Page is playing TRS on his 1275 I always thought he was playing it in open tuning because he also uses the 1275 when he plays Stairway.

However, after watching TSRTS recently, Page is definitely playing TRS using similar chord patterns and if I tune my guitar up a whole step to EADADE then the live version of TRS sound spot on, BUT Page is surely playing STH in standard tuning. I checked the set list for the 73 tour and the structure is The Song Remains The Same followed by The Rain Song but Dazed and Confused is played before Stairway to Heaven. It looks like the EDS-1275 is tuned from the open tuning down to standard tuning.

Can anybody confirm this? I know this might be trivial to some of you but every once in a while somebody will argue that Page HAD TO HAVE played The Rain Song in standard tuning because he plays Stairway to Heaven right after. Also, I know that this thread has the potential to generate some pretty interesting posts.

[AndrewPDarling]

For what it's worth...on the 1973 tour, the set order was "The Rain Song," "Dazed And Confused," and then "Stairway To Heaven." So, there was a good 28 minutes to retune the EDS 1275...On the later tours, the two songs were far apart in the set, and eventually, "The Rain Song" was taken out of the set.

[JamminJoe]

I'm sure LedZep could afford two 1275's.

Never knew The Rain Song was an open tuning - I'll have to try that out. Thanks.

[tiktok]

I've never heard any suggestion that Page owned two 1275's during the 70's. Retuning is the simplest explanation.

[SGNick]

It was retuned.

You'll notice that the song just before the Rain song was How The West Was Won, which he played on the 12 string neck, then into the Rain Song on the 6 string neck (tuned funky)

Then during Dazed and confused, it was retuned to standard.

Playing the song in A means that they'd have to retune 2 strings, whereas playing it in G means having to retune 5 strings... I can see why they played it in A!

EDIT: It's also possible that Page retuned it himself once he picked it up again, I mean, it's 2 strings and he's Jimmy f*cking Page.

[Thames]

Exactly what SGNick said. We play both live and I only have to tune 2 strings. Quick and easy. And the 12-string neck is only used in the rockin' part of the tune, which is mostly standard chords + fill-in riffs.

[andrekp]

Well I remember learning to play the song in A in standard tuning. Playing it in G in standard tuning was just too difficult, but the only documentation available to us way back then was the G standard method. TSRTS enlightened us that it could be played much easier in A standard.

Honestly, I can't say whether Page was also retuning live, but I can say catagorically that it can be played quite nicely in A standard and I believe that Page played it that way live to keep from having to retune at all.

(But it really only sounds completely correct in the DGCDCD tuning that we all NOW know is correct.)

[zep41]

6 string part of guitar was retuned for Stairway. This could be done in about 20 seconds considering it's only 2 strings to work on.

[korby]

I6QWQS-pRR8

Mmmmmmm ! Acoustic version .

[andrekp]

6 string part of guitar was retuned for Stairway. This could be done in about 20 seconds considering it's only 2 strings to work on.

But that's not really the issue. The issue is whether you could play it back-to-back with The Song Remains the Same. In the days before stomp-box tuners, this was not what anybody did. Page's solution, apparently, was to just play it in A standard. It doesn't sound like the studio recording, but it DOES sound like the live one, and it keeps the guitar fully usable for the companion song.

Again, I don't know if Page also retuned any live, but I know he didn't have to because in our ignorance we learned it could be done quite easily in A standard.

[Thames]

But that's not really the issue. The issue is whether you could play it back-to-back with The Song Remains the Same. In the days before stomp-box tuners, this was not what anybody did. Page's solution, apparently, was to just play it in A standard. It doesn't sound like the studio recording, but it DOES sound like the live one, and it keeps the guitar fully usable for the companion song.

Again, I don't know if Page also retuned any live, but I know he didn't have to because in our ignorance we learned it could be done quite easily in A standard.


Yes. As TSRTS (the song) is played only on the 12-string neck.

[SGNick]

Yes. As TSRTS (the song) is played only on the 12-string neck.

Not to mention that looking at his fingers while he's playing The rain Song live, it's definitely not tuned to Standard.

[TNJ]

Probably my fave Page acoustic number, just in front of 'Black Mountainside'.
DADGAD tuning is quite cool.

S>j

[cob666]

Again, I don't know if Page also retuned any live, but I know he didn't have to because in our ignorance we learned it could be done quite easily in A standard.

But Page DIDN'T play it in standard tuning, if you watch him play it on TSRTS you can see he is definitely playing it in an open tuning.

I also knew that they played Dazed between Rain Song and Stairway so there is plenty of time to re-tune, you also don't hear Page retuning on any of the bootlegs that I've heard. Again, I knew it was played in A live but had never really watched what Page was playing during TRS to realize that he was playing the songs regular open tuning tuned up a whole step.

One of those incidents where you realize why is was so difficult to learn a song because you had your guitar in the wrong tuning!

[zep41]

But that's not really the issue. The issue is whether you could play it back-to-back with The Song Remains the Same. In the days before stomp-box tuners, this was not what anybody did. Page's solution, apparently, was to just play it in A standard. It doesn't sound like the studio recording, but it DOES sound like the live one, and it keeps the guitar fully usable for the companion song.

Again, I don't know if Page also retuned any live, but I know he didn't have to because in our ignorance we learned it could be done quite easily in A standard.

Right -- which is why the Double Neck was essential for performing Song Remains the Same in 1973 and 75, because they went right into Rain Song at the conclusion of TSRTS.

When Page picked up the double neck for TSRTS, the 6 string part of the guitar was tuned in A. TSRTS is played entirely on the 12 string and then come time for the Rain Song, he played it on the 6 string.

Afterwards the guitar was given to Raymond Thomas, who then put the 6 string part of the guitar back into standard tuning for Stairway (again this is only 2 strings that need to be tuned back down). He used the Conn Strobotuner ST6 to do this and the unit can visibly be seen on top of Page's theremin amp.

http://images.shopgoodwill.com/117/11-29-2010/sa30882961129-20.jpg

[andrekp]

Thanks for all the clarifications - believe me I wish a lot of this info had been around 35 years ago - but it was not.

But I'm not arguing about what Page actually did, I'm simply saying that before some of us knew any better, we learned that TRS could be played in A on a standard tuned guitar. So if you DID NOT have a 1275, you could still do the TSRST TRS couplet without retuning. As we had NO information about Page otherwise retuning the song (the only tab I ever saw in the 70's was in G in standard tuning), we didn't have an internet of guitarists to consult, and we didn't have DVD's that we could slow down and stop to see Page's actual fingering in the movie, we thought our assumption was correct - that Page simly played in in A on a standard tuned guitar.

That's what every guitarist I knew thought in the mid-late 70's. Other guitarists might have had better information, but we did not.

So sorry I've sidetracked everyone. I've simply tried to add an historical note that I thought might be interesting to some of you.

[Thames]

While I do believe that he simply tuned G and B strings differently, sometimes I feel that he played it on a standard tuning (EADGBE).... some notes/chords seem to ring differently...

[cob666]

So sorry I've sidetracked everyone. I've simply tried to add an historical note that I thought might be interesting to some of you.

No apologies necessary and you most definitely did NOT sidetrack the thread, what you experienced was exactly what I went through trying to learn TRS in the 70's. After seeing the movie TSRTS you see Page playing TRS on the 1275 and then play STH on the 1275 and you just assume that he's playing TRS up a key in a but in STANDARD TUNING. As you also pointed out all the guitar tab were written for the song in G in standard tuning and it wasn't the easiest song to play tabbed like that.

[andrekp]

Well the apparent fact that Page played TRS in an open tuning in A raises a question (I say apparent, because I don't think there is anywhere near conclusive evidence from the movie, as there are only two very short scenes that even SHOW Page, and one is out of sync):

If he was going to retune the 6-string anyway and play it exclusively, why not just tune to the regular G tuning for the song? I mean once you've committed to retuning, what's the difference? Besides, tuning that B string all the way up to D is a sure recipe for string break - which would REALLY muck things up.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense that he'd play it in A, if he was also retuning. (not that it's still not true. Maybe he had good reasons.)

[Polynitro]

he used the secret Jimmy Page tuning

I wouldnt go by TSRTS thats edited all messed up

[ggwwbb]

tune my guitar up a whole step to EADADE

I learned it in this tuning (the SRTS version) from a Guitar World tab several years ago and can play along with it, sounding exactly the same.

[RedBack]

Well the apparent fact that Page played TRS in an open tuning in A raises a question (I say apparent, because I don't think there is anywhere near conclusive evidence from the movie, as there are only two very short scenes that even SHOW Page, and one is out of sync):

If he was going to retune the 6-string anyway and play it exclusively, why not just tune to the regular G tuning for the song? I mean once you've committed to retuning, what's the difference? Besides, tuning that B string all the way up to D is a sure recipe for string break - which would REALLY muck things up.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense that he'd play it in A, if he was also retuning. (not that it's still not true. Maybe he had good reasons.)These are really good points. To a professional crew, the time available for tuning is pretty irrelevant, they could have done whatever they wanted. So there was a reason TRS was played in the different key.

I've never really sat down to study it, so I don't have a strong opinion about TRS tuning, but I completely agree about the edits. They certainly took liberties with the footage versus the various soundtracks. Take for example, there are at least 3 versions of SIBLY, comparing the original stereo video release & DVD, a 2nd version on the 5.1 Lead Zeppelin DVD, and the 3rd variation on the 5.1 re-release of TSRTS on DVD.

To me it doesn't really matter, Page was always about a performance and far less concerned about slavishly reproducing studio versions, so he could well have enjoyed switching up the arrangement. For significant slabs of TSRTS releases, your watching performance footage, not necessarily exactly related to what your hearing. Regardless of how Page did it on the day, the live TRS definitely sounds lighter in terms of the chords vs the studio and can be pretty convincingly reproduced in standard tuning.

[zep41]

The Rain Song from TSRTS movie is edited a little but that has nothing to do with how it was played. Page always played the Rain Song live in open A tuning with Led Zeppelin.

Why he didnt play it in the same tuning as on the album is a question up for debate. You will notice that The Rain Song live and the Rain Song on album are very different not only because of the tuning, but in delivery --- not as much strumming and a little more subdued live. Maybe Page and Co. simply just thought it sounded better in open A? Or maybe they thought the notes in open A tuning sounded better when delivered immediately after The Song Remains the Same live? The two songs flow into eachother better with the Rain Song in open A tuning. However, when they played it live in 79-80, The Rain Song did NOT immediately follow The Song Remains (actually they didnt play Song Remains in 80).

Maybe they just liked it better in A. :dunno

[Polynitro]

maybe Plant preffered it in A...there's some high caterwailing going on in that song.

[andrekp]

Or maybe playing it in A allowed more sympathetic ringing from the unused, but on, 12-string? Page is known to like that effect.

Though again, I'd like to know if he ACTUALLY played it in the odd A tuning in TSRTS, or if we are just projecting it from our current knowledge of the actual studio tuning, and/or someone "in authority" telling us he used that tuning. I agree it sounds better with the off tuning, even in A, but there are also a few odd notes in the live version which are difficult to reproduce simply by tuning the open G up to open A, or which point to a standard A tuning being a possibility. Maybe he used a further modified tuning.

The fact is, it doesn't make obvious sense. Playing it in standard A is relatively simple as I recall, AND would allow him to use the guitar as normal otherwise. Playing it in open A is also relatively simple, but requires a precariously tight B string, and seems odd when just using the open G works better.

I just find it curious, and I note that discussions about it are largely a product of today and all the information we now have. In the late 70's, everyone I knew thought it was in standard A and played it that way - because it just makes more sense.

I wonder if there is other film from that period that better shows his fingerings?

[DWB1960]

I wonder if there is other film from that period that better shows his fingerings?

Search Youtube for "Rain Song Earls Court"

[andrekp]

The Earls' Court is pretty useless to see much. However, there's a Knebworth one, which though a really poor example of Page, pretty clearly shows his playing it in open A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frActpwbt1I&feature=related

[zep41]

Or maybe playing it in A allowed more sympathetic ringing from the unused, but on, 12-string? Page is known to like that effect.

Though again, I'd like to know if he ACTUALLY played it in the odd A tuning in TSRTS, or if we are just projecting it from our current knowledge of the actual studio tuning, and/or someone "in authority" telling us he used that tuning. I agree it sounds better with the off tuning, even in A, but there are also a few odd notes in the live version which are difficult to reproduce simply by tuning the open G up to open A, or which point to a standard A tuning being a possibility. Maybe he used a further modified tuning.

The fact is, it doesn't make obvious sense. Playing it in standard A is relatively simple as I recall, AND would allow him to use the guitar as normal otherwise. Playing it in open A is also relatively simple, but requires a precariously tight B string, and seems odd when just using the open G works better.

I just find it curious, and I note that discussions about it are largely a product of today and all the information we now have. In the late 70's, everyone I knew thought it was in standard A and played it that way - because it just makes more sense.

I wonder if there is other film from that period that better shows his fingerings?

Watch the end of the Rain Song on TSRTS movie. The outtro guitar parts of the song. The audio and visual do not match up absolutely perfectly but what you see is Page playing the Rain Song live.

Everything he is doing with his fingers makes perfect sense and everything points to it being played in A. Take your guitar out and tune up the 3rd string to A and the 2nd string up to D then try to mimic what you see Page playing. It will work.

[diego]

I transcribed the live version in standard tuning.

[andrekp]

Watch the end of the Rain Song on TSRTS movie. The outtro guitar parts of the song. The audio and visual do not match up absolutely perfectly but what you see is Page playing the Rain Song live.

Everything he is doing with his fingers makes perfect sense and everything points to it being played in A. Take your guitar out and tune up the 3rd string to A and the 2nd string up to D then try to mimic what you see Page playing. It will work.

I know it's in A, the question was whether he played it in standard tuning in A (as I and many friends learned it in the days before video and correct tab books, and which is not hard to play), or whether he played it in that odd open A that is the correct open G studio tuning, moved up to A.

I think that at least the Knebworth footage puts that to rest. He clearly was playing it in open A, not standard A. I presume he probably always did and I won't question that further.

But that brings up the related question: If he played it in open A, why?

I doubt it was for Plant's sake, as that would be more likely a move down than up.

Maybe it simplified JPJ's parts?

Maybe it gave a better sympathetic ring on the 12 string?

Maybe it just sounded better on an electric? Playing it in G can sound pretty twangy and loose on an electric.

That's the real question now.

[Thames]

My God... stop wasting time on this one my friends, and go play ! ... We all know it is Open-A... and the main reason was probably "simplicity" of tuning change... that's all... why bother ? :) peace!

[DWB1960]

We all know it is Open-A... and the main reason was probably "simplicity" of tuning change.

Agreed. Plus it made it a bit easier on Plant.

[RupertB]

I learned it in standard tuning decades ago. Wasn't looking to play it with a band but solo.

Much later the other guitarist in the band worked out the open-G version on 12-string. The two versions together, with all the open strings, sounded terrific & allowed us to fill in some of the cello lines as well.

We did similar with Little Martha: Him in standard & me tuned to open-D, capo2.

[zep41]

I know it's in A, the question was whether he played it in standard tuning in A (as I and many friends learned it in the days before video and correct tab books, and which is not hard to play), or whether he played it in that odd open A that is the correct open G studio tuning, moved up to A.

I think that at least the Knebworth footage puts that to rest. He clearly was playing it in open A, not standard A. I presume he probably always did and I won't question that further.

But that brings up the related question: If he played it in open A, why?

I doubt it was for Plant's sake, as that would be more likely a move down than up.

Maybe it simplified JPJ's parts?

Maybe it gave a better sympathetic ring on the 12 string?

Maybe it just sounded better on an electric? Playing it in G can sound pretty twangy and loose on an electric.

That's the real question now.

Correct -- in open A it's definitely tighter and more melodic. The notes are just chimey-er too on an electric guitar.

I believe if Zeppelin ever played the Rain Song with acoustic guitar, Page would have used the album tuning. (see the un-ledded performance with Page/Plant)

[Polynitro]

could be that guitar intonates better in A

[Lightningrt]

could be that guitar intonates better in A

I see three possible reasons:

1. Fit's in better with the end of SRTS key-wise
2. [A new one here] the mellotron was notorious for going out of tune and is mentioned in LZ biographies and interviews for being so - is A a better key to play in?
3. As page used 9's [or even 8's ] as his string gauge for live work, I reckon tuning to G simply made the strings too floppy.

1 is possible but unlikely, 2 is even less likely, but I think 3 is entirely possible having used very light strings in the past and used open G and similar tunings myself.

Good fun this thread...

[musicofanatic5]

I6QWQS-pRR8

Mmmmmmm ! Acoustic version .

I love this song and if it was Page's only contribution to the modern gtr lexicon he would still be certified for genius-hood, but....

Is this video a staged theatrical production??!? There was a close-up of a "pretty" young boy with his hair in his face with an upright bass, and, as a life-long upright bassist, it appeared he had never seen an upright bass before, much less been coached on how to appear to be an upright bassist!! What is this video from? sorry for the derail...

[DWB1960]

What is this video from? sorry for the derail...

Page and Plant's MTV UNLEDDED performance. That bassist is Charlie Jones who married Plant's daughter.

[savinthescene]

good lord...he played it A, so he didnt have to tune the whole 6 neck down to make the STH transition easier

[yoyoyojo]

OK so a lot of good discussion. Here is where I am at in my belief for the open tunings Jimmy Page used live (on the movie TSRTS) ...

TSRTS was played in DGCDCD on the 12-string neck
Rain Song was played in a similar tuning, just one whole step up EADEDE on the 6 string

It's appears the concensus is that for Stairway to Heaven the 6 string was retuned to the standard tuning (just requires two strings to be retuned)

However what is missing in this thread is what was the 12-string neck tuned to for Stairway to Heaven (performed live on TSRTS movie)? Using the logic here retuning the 12 string to a standard tuning would be quite a feat and Jimmy page only had one double neck in the 1970's. Was the 12-string neck tuned to DGCDCD? If so has anyone seen tabs for this?

[cob666]

The 12 string neck is in standard tuning, Page played TSRTS on the 12 string neck and then plays TRS song immediately after on the 6 string neck, so the 12 string neck is always in standard tuning

[Thames]

The 12 string neck is in standard tuning, Page played TSRTS on the 12 string neck and then plays TRS song immediately after on the 6 string neck, so the 12 string neck is always in standard tuning

This.

And the 6 string neck was tuned EADADE.

[sgmarshall]

I too learned it in standard, a couple of the chords are like my fingers playing twister. Then live it's in the key of A, studio key of G. I read somewhere (if memory serves me correctly) that the g string was tuned to A, and the b string tuned to D, but in the studio, the neck of the guitar was creaking so he took the whole thing down 1 step. I've played it (in standard) with a buddy who plays it "correctly", and they sound the same overall, but the timbre in the open tuning is different.

[IGuitUpIGuitDown]

Those magical chords of TRS do not ring correctly unless it's tuned to DGCGCD. The live version loses all of the elegance of the original version. I tried every permutation on the fretboard in standard but could never get THAT sound, until I discovered the studio tuning.

Your "Slush" may differ. :D

[Flogger59]

There is one thing, by tuning it to open A he only has to change two strings tuning to get back to standard, and unwound strings at that. I find it easier to get unwound strings to settle down after tuning than wound strings.


Here is a good link for analysis of Zep live releases as compared to bootlegs of the same shows. Page is an editing genius.

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/

[yoyoyojo]

I think this video prooves the point that TSRTS was done in standard tuning ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhdj9CDTj6M