GM investing $540M in Mexico engine plant

[nitehawk55]

Sorry but a big WTF when I saw this .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110120/ts_alt_afp/mexicousautocompanygm
That's going to do little for GM's reputation and you would think this should be invested in a GM plant in North-Am first since we bailed them out ?

Stupid...stupid...stupid !! :horse

[enocaster]

Mexico is in North America, but, yeah, it's frustrating after the bailout.

[nitehawk55]

Mexico is in North America, but, yeah, it's frustrating after the bailout.

True , but you know what I mean , Mexico sure didn't help with any bailout .

Says this will create 500 jobs plus 500 outsourcing jobs . I really don't understand it .

[tiktok]

Cheaper cars for the rest of us.

GM's a company, they've had many overseas plants over the years. When it makes business sense, that's what they do.

[Stratofreak]

IMO, it was a really bad idea to bail out GM. This "too big to fail" thing has gone too far! A real slap in the face to the American tax payer!

[LivingTheDream]

Haha. Maybe cheaper in quality, but most certainly not cheaper retail prices to the consumer.

GM (and it's board of directors) are not producing engines in Mexico because they like to take siestas. Make no mistake, they are doing it to increase their margins, and ultimately, their bottom lines.

[yellowecho]

I think it's extremely distasteful of them! We need jobs here... we spent our money to keep GM from going under and they send 1000 potential jobs away while unemployment is over 9%? GTFO!

[telecopter]

They didn't even pass out the Vasoline.

[Boobala]

I think a hefty Engine Import Tariff is in order.

[Stratofreak]

I think a hefty Engine Import Tariff is in order.

All that would mean is GM would pass that additional expense onto the customer!

[TwoTubMan]

So, where are the engines currently being manufactured?

[Brendan]

So, where are the engines currently being manufactured?

I know they were building V8 engines in Mexico in the 90s.

[bigdaddy]

Doh!

[nitehawk55]

So, where are the engines currently being manufactured?

From what I understand these are 2 new engines . The plant they are investing the $$ in was an engine plant and was closed a couple years ago when the economy tanked . With this it will be reopening and creating these new jobs .
Thanks for thinking about us GM !! :nono

[Trandy]

Typical.

[tnt365]

I think it's extremely distasteful of them! We need jobs here... we spent our money to keep GM from going under and they send 1000 potential jobs away while unemployment is over 9%? GTFO!

:roll

[Old Tele man]

...the 1.8L and 1.4LT engines in GM's Cruze are from Austria (Opel) and the automatic transmission is from Mexico already!

[jcmark611]

You have two choices. Build a plant in the US, raise the cost of your cars to cover the labor, then not sale those cars due to the increased cost or do what Chevy did.

They have to compete with Ford, Dodge, Honda, and others. In order to compete they have to practice business in a similar manner as the other companies.

[Boobala]

All that would mean is GM would pass that additional expense onto the customer!

Not if the customers buy something else. :D

[dankayaker]

I'm pretty sure car companies have been using Mexico for various parts of production for a while . .along with Canada.

[FeloniousBishop]

Cheaper cars for the rest of us.

The Tragedy of the Commons.

[hackenfort]

I think a hefty Engine Import Tariff is in order.

I would like to see either a hefty tax on all imported goods or a tax credit for any products made in the US.

This is one of the area's I don't think our government has done a good job, IMO their main responsibility is to protect the American citizen.

[ToneBrokerBill]

I think Germany provides a good example for us to emulate as appropriate. Here is a country with some of the highest labor costs in the world that still powers its economy through exports. My sense is that they do this with a combination of hyper-efficient manufacturing, and by delivering premium products that customers want to buy. I would imagine that there are government policies that also help this model succeed.

[lcjc800]

I think a hefty Engine Import Tariff is in order.


uh, NAFTA?

[procos]

You have two choices. Build a plant in the US, raise the cost of your cars to cover the labor, then not sale those cars due to the increased cost or do what Chevy did.

They have to compete with Ford, Dodge, Honda, and others. In order to compete they have to practice business in a similar manner as the other companies.

Man you make way too much sense. I had a long statement wrote up but decided better not to post. I plan on staying around TGP for good now and don't want to get myself in trouble.:aok BTW so you know I completely agree with you.

[jcmark611]

I think Germany provides a good example for us to emulate as appropriate. Here is a country with some of the highest labor costs in the world that still powers its economy through exports. My sense is that they do this with a combination of hyper-efficient manufacturing, and by delivering premium products that customers want to buy. I would imagine that there are government policies that also help this model succeed.

German workers make less than American workers, but have a better working environment and benefits than many American workers. (Some benefits are Government supplied)

But, the point is there. Many European auto makers have been making the best cars in the world the last 15-20 years, why Detroit is taking so long to adapt to that is why they are failing.

[Twangzilla]

But, the point is there. Many Japanese auto makers have been making the best cars in the world the last 15-20 years, why Detroit is taking so long to adapt to that is why they are failing.

Fixed it for you.

[groovetube]

stop building engines in mexico.

the only mexican stuff i want is smuggled in.

[jcmark611]

Fixed it for you.

Which Japanese car would you put up against a Mercedes, BMW, or VW?

[Twangzilla]

Which Japanese car would you put up against a Mercedes, BMW, or VW?

Dollar per mile? Pretty much any of them. Don't forget Audi, notorious money pits.

[groovetube]

oh here we go.

[jcmark611]

Dollar per mile? Pretty much any of them. Don't forget Audi, notorious money pits.

Eh, I'd rather judge a car by how fun it is. :aok

[guitarmind]

First they screwed the stock holders and now the american job seeker.
Why can foreign car companies make cars in the USA, but US companies can't???. Just another reason for me to now be a Ford man.

[j2b4o]

Well this will definitely help their domestic reputation as making crap for over 20yrs. I mean we all know the best made stuff comes from mexico. World class cars.... Lolololo

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

GM will fail again, the people running that place are a bunch of idiots. They are easily the most clueless out of the big 3.

[Antelope]

I think Germany provides a good example for us to emulate as appropriate. Here is a country with some of the highest labor costs in the world that still powers its economy through exports. My sense is that they do this with a combination of hyper-efficient manufacturing, and by delivering premium products that customers want to buy. I would imagine that there are government policies that also help this model succeed.

VW makes most of its cars for export in Mexico and is right now working on a plant in Chattanooga, TN. Mercedes has a plant in Alabama. All of these companies go where they can get the best deals, whether that's labor cost, tax deals/incentives, or a combination of both.

[bluesjuke]

Cheaper cars for the rest of us.

GM's a company, they've had many overseas plants over the years. When it makes business sense, that's what they do.


I get your point but isn't that also what neccesitated the bailout for them to a large degree? Lack of business sense?

[AnthonyL]

No unions?

[Barefoot]

GM will make decisions and either survive or fail.
....and wasn't GM ultimately stolen from the bond holders and handed to the unions?
Why would a union run company re-invest in Mexico rather than the US.
Interesting question.

I agree, this investment in Mexico is incredibly tone deaf.

The real problem lies elsewhere.

The government handed out 100's of billions of dollars. But they didn't have the smarts to insure the money would stay in this country or, in the case of the banking system, that the money would be circulated through the economy to create a recovery.

Instead foriegn investors were paid, auto makers (and others) spend the money overseas, the banks sit on the money or use it for acquisition rather than lending it to business and individuals.

Building quality cars is not the central issue here.

[rob2001]

No unions?

One of the first things that came to my mind reading the thread title but...:hide2

[Big Boss Man]

GM will fail again, the people running that place are a bunch of idiots. They are easily the most clueless out of the big 3.

No way would I ever invest that kind of money in Mexico. It is a country teetering on the edge of collapse from all the corruption and violence. In a few years GM will probably have to close down the plant due to this. Then they will be asking the government for another bailout.

[Boris Bubbanov]

...the 1.8L and 1.4LT engines in GM's Cruze are from Austria (Opel) and the automatic transmission is from Mexico already!

+1

The bigger Bogeyman is GM's plans to do a lot of their future manufacturing in China.

I guess we go along in the hopes that if GM stays solvent, the few USA GM jobs we still have won't go away. In other words, win by not losing.

[BarryJ]

I was shopping for a new car last summer, and my choices came down to the Ford Fusion and the Mazda 6. I've owned nothing but Fords for the past 20 years (family affiliation with a bunch of Ford employees and car dealership employees). But my last Ford was assembled in Mexico, and quality-wise it was pretty so-so. I decided that this was as good a time as any to expand my horizons a bit.

I drove multiple examples of each car - they're somewhat related vehicles that share quite a few parts due to Ford and Mazda's partnership. And they're both very good - I'd have been pretty happy with either one. But the Mazdas just felt better, and had that tiny bit extra when it came to build quality.

Here's the kicker - and remember that they're both pretty much the same price. The Fusions are assembled in Mexico. The Mazdas are assembled in - Flat Rock, Michigan! So we're still perfectly capable of making quality, competetive vehicles right here.

(yeah, yeah, I know they both have plenty of foreign sourced parts - but that's true of all the automakers. Go find the best vehicle, and ignore the other crap).

[Glowing Tubes]

I think a hefty Engine Import Tariff is in order.

Actually this.
Laws got changed as there used to be import tariffs on all items made outside the US. The result of the laws dropped is outsourcing of everything, no manufacturing in the good ol' USA and a decline in all areas of our economy.

Bring the tariffs back and watch the jobs start up again.

[rob2001]

Bring the tariffs back and watch the jobs start up again.

You may be right but I don't think it's that simple.

[AllenMance]

It sucks they moved to Mexico but if we're going to get sold out my motto is, "ANYWHERE BUT CHINA"... I'd rather see GM put a plant in Mexico with US quality control than some communist country...

This country is so far gone it doesn't really matter what the big companies do anymore. Let them all move offshore, American's get what they deserve....

[Britishampfan]

I guess GM can do what it likes but after the American Public saved their jobs and company, they build a plant somewhere else?

And they want us to buy their brand? No Way! I hope we don`t bail them out the next time they go under.

[hellbender]

Mexico is in North America, but, yeah, it's frustrating after the bailout.

There is more truth to this statement than currently meets the eye. The border separating our countries is evaporating right before our eyes. The next generation will see a Mexico quite different than the struggling country of today.

[jcmark611]

Actually this.
Laws got changed as there used to be import tariffs on all items made outside the US. The result of the laws dropped is outsourcing of everything, no manufacturing in the good ol' USA and a decline in all areas of our economy.

Bring the tariffs back and watch the jobs start up again.

And watch the rest of the world crumble around us as they lose their biggest customer.

[jcmark611]

I guess GM can do what it likes but after the American Public saved their jobs and company, they build a plant somewhere else?

And they want us to buy their brand? No Way! I hope we don`t bail them out the next time they go under.

Let's say you loaned someone $5,000 dollars, they start to pay you back and then you hear they went out and purchased a Gibson R9 with cash. Would you be upset that the guy is spending his money on something like that instead of paying you back as quickly as possible?

[Smakutus]

So, where are the engines currently being manufactured?

They make engines here in Flint still.. GM as a company is a piece of shit.

Jeff

[02Singlecut]

They make engines here in Flint still.. GM as a company is a piece of shit.

Jeff

+1.......:drink

[hellbender]

They make engines here in Flint still.. GM as a company is a piece of shit.

Jeff

GM is not the only American company with an identity problem. They are the contemporary prodigal sons.

[tiktok]

Let's say you loaned someone $5,000 dollars, they start to pay you back and then you hear they went out and purchased a Gibson R9 with cash. Would you be upset that the guy is spending his money on something like that instead of paying you back as quickly as possible?

Didn't GM already pay back their bailout loan, and early? I mean after that, if they want to buy an R9, that's really their business. Of course, if they come back and want a second bailout, oh--who am I kidding? They'll get that one too.

[yardbird mac]

GM will fail again, the people running that place are a bunch of idiots. They are easily the most clueless out of the big 3.


I agree... Look what they did (or didn't do) with SATURN.

I WANT SATURN BACK!!!

We wife and I have owned 3 SATURNs in the past 17 years. I put 240,000+ miles on my "93" SL2. My wife's 2002 SL2 has run without a hitch. My 2004 ION was a victim of the poorly designed automatic transmission fiasco. The first replacement tranny didn't even last a year. The newest one has been OK so far (knock on wood). The upside to the transmission issue is that BOTH were replaced for free!

Our local BUICK - GMC dealer (former SATURN dealer) keeps bugging me to buy a BUICK. The only people I see driving BUICKS around here are 80+ year olds that don't know what the accelerator pedal is for!

[Marcfordsfuzz513]

I love GM products, they make great cars but that;s a big **** you to America. Even though i'm a conservative, i don't necessarily disagree with the whole bailout thing. But thats a big **** you, they could of hired tons of American citizens... I'll have to think long and hard about whether I want a Ford or Chevy for my next car.

[Mark C]

This issue is so complex, and it's really the fault of everyone. GM for building a reputation in the 70's and 80's for building unreliable crap. Politicians, for allowing foreign competitors to dump cheap products on our soil and erode our consumer and manufacturing base. And finally, the consumer. GM was doing fine for a while there, building exactly what Americans wanted - big, gas guzzling SUVs that Suzy Soccer Mom felt she needed to safely carry a five pound toddler and a four ounce jar of nutmeg. They tried to build smaller cars, but no one would buy them - those consumers insisted on buying foreign cars. They've tried to manufacture in the US, but they can't get similar incentives from politicos that are given to some foreign car companies. They then build plants in other countries so they can compete on pricing, but that's a no-win situation as well.

This country has dug a hole for itself. We all want cheap goods, and we want them now. We demand jobs, but we aren't willing to pay prices that will allow a manufacturer to hire Americans at what is considered a living wage. Stockholders demand constant growth and dividends, so the dollar becomes the entire bottom line for every corporation. The people who run the corporations aren't interested in the long-term health of the company, they just want to get their millions immediately.

It's greed - from top to bottom. And we are all to blame.

['70 RS]

I agree... Look what they did (or didn't do) with SATURN.

I WANT SATURN BACK!!!



Our local BUICK - GMC dealer (former SATURN dealer) keeps bugging me to buy a BUICK. The only people I see driving BUICKS around here are 80+ year olds that don't know what the accelerator pedal is for!


Buick's home market is China, and they are increasing market share every year. In other words = Making money for GM.

Saturn, on the other hand, was losing money for GM.

Until you and a few other's buy enough Saturns to offset the Buicks being sold in China you can keep yelling.

[lcjc800]

:facepalm

['70 RS]

:facepalm

:huh

You don't like the idea of growing a successful export line, while killing a money losing brand?

[xntrick]

i thought the bailout was a loan to GM, as long as they pay it back with interest is all that matters..i have heard that the lower end BMW's are made in the USA as the labor costs are cheaper compares to Germany...

[yardbird mac]

Buick's home market is China, and they are increasing market share every year. In other words = Making money for GM.

Saturn, on the other hand, was losing money for GM.

Until you and a few other's buy enough Saturns to offset the Buicks being sold in China you can keep yelling.

Not to keep :horse, there are several articles on the internet detailing the downfall of SATURN. It seems that the head honchos at GM didn't want SATURN to get off the ground from the get go! They were really popular in my "neck of the woods". I still see lots of them around.

OK, I'm done yelling... I just want off this planet. :FM

['70 RS]

Not to keep :horse, there are several articles on the internet detailing the downfall of SATURN. It seems that the head honchos at GM didn't want SATURN to get off the ground from the get go! They were really popular in my "neck of the woods". I still see lots of them around.

OK, I'm done yelling... I just want off this planet. :FM

Whatever the history of Saturn is/was/could have been/should have been doesn't matter. GM had to deal with the circumstances it was faced with when a worldwide recession hit, credit dried up, and they were forced to restructure in order to stay in business. Close up all the brands that were draining the company, focus on the ones that had a chance at growth, streamline production, and close dealerships.

That's just the way it is.

The other option? Go out of business completely.

Either way, you ain't gettin' a new Saturn. I'd rather have a successful car being exported to the Chinese market then nothing at all.

[jcmark611]

If you ask me, the new Cruze has some shades of older Saturns.

Despite the tone of this thread, I do believe Chevy is currently offering the best sedan of all the American badges.

['70 RS]

If you ask me, the new Cruze has some shades of older Saturns.




I agree.

[nitehawk55]

How many put out of work in TN when Saturn closed ? Not just the plant but outsource suppliers too .

I always felt Saturn had a good future , they certainly seemed to be selling a lot of cars , even up here in Canada you see a lot of them .

I've nothing against some car production in Mexico , hell I own a Mexican built Ford Fusion and it's a great car .

What busts my balls is a company that was bailed out and is creating jobs elswhere . That is a slap in the face to millions of people .

Is the new Cruze a good car ?....time will tell , give them a few years of real road use .

[thewhit]

.......GM has 209,000 employees and it may surprise some to know that they are in the top 10 of U.S companies with cash on hand of $33.4 Billion.

I personally think companies are too greedy on the one hand with constantly pushing profit limits at the expense of consumers while at the same time the system of paying outrageous retiree benefits and health benefits to Insurance Companies who are clearly making insane profits, again burdens consumers and causes prices to rise.

I would like to have seen at least one of our illustrious motor companies fail because my belief is that somewhere deep in the DNA, the American ingenuity and drive still exist. I believe former employees would have banded together, bought some of the liquidated assets and made one or more new lines of cars, better priced and attracted the kind of resources to grow the companies. I would like to see lower prices and less profit per unit and I believe more units would be sold.

Meanwhile GM like the rest is going to do whatever they can to maximize profits. At times they wrap themselves around the flag talking about American products and workers when it suits their purpose and cross borders also when it suits their financial goals of more profits.

['70 RS]

How many put out of work in TN when Saturn closed ?



How many put out of work if GM & Chrysler didn't exist today?

[Smakutus]

How many put out of work in TN when Saturn closed ?

I don't believe they were even building Saturn's at the Saturn plant in Tennessee anymore.

Jeff

[jcmark611]

You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?

[mark123]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this still true? I couldn't find any current stats real fast (from a press new article in 2009 about the GM bankruptcy).

"Union-run retiree health care trust 17.5 percent ownership of a post-bankruptcy protection GM"

Way to treat your own Union guys! (if true)

[bluesjuke]

This issue is so complex, and it's really the fault of everyone. GM for building a reputation in the 70's and 80's for building unreliable crap. Politicians, for allowing foreign competitors to dump cheap products on our soil and erode our consumer and manufacturing base. And finally, the consumer. GM was doing fine for a while there, building exactly what Americans wanted - big, gas guzzling SUVs that Suzy Soccer Mom felt she needed to safely carry a five pound toddler and a four ounce jar of nutmeg. They tried to build smaller cars, but no one would buy them - those consumers insisted on buying foreign cars. They've tried to manufacture in the US, but they can't get similar incentives from politicos that are given to some foreign car companies. They then build plants in other countries so they can compete on pricing, but that's a no-win situation as well.

This country has dug a hole for itself. We all want cheap goods, and we want them now. We demand jobs, but we aren't willing to pay prices that will allow a manufacturer to hire Americans at what is considered a living wage. Stockholders demand constant growth and dividends, so the dollar becomes the entire bottom line for every corporation. The people who run the corporations aren't interested in the long-term health of the company, they just want to get their millions immediately.

It's greed - from top to bottom. And we are all to blame.


You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.

[Faraldi]

I agree... Look what they did (or didn't do) with SATURN.

I WANT SATURN BACK!!!



Yep, Saturn was awesome. We had one of those SC models about 15 years ago (holy crap, reality check right there!) and it was a great car. It didn't do anything exceptionally, but it did everything well which, IMO is the way to judge a car.

[loudboy]

I WANT SATURN BACK!!!

My 2004 ION was a victim of the poorly designed automatic transmission fiasco. The first replacement tranny didn't even last a year. The newest one has been OK so far (knock on wood). The upside to the transmission issue is that BOTH were replaced for free!

This is a pretty poor example of how to do things right, IMHO.

A 66% success rate, car-wise. 2 of the 3 you bought were good.

They designed, produced and marketed a defective product - there's no way they didn't know about this...

They had to give away (parts AND labor) two replacement transmissions.

Just sayin' - if I did my job that poorly, I wouldn't have it anymore...

[tiktok]

You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.

I don't know--$76/hour sounds like what it takes to raise a family of four, have health insurance, own a home, two cars, send the kids to college and be able to save some money. I thought that was 'the American Dream'? And to do that while manufacturing things that all other Americans need?

Bear in mind that the a good part of that $76/hour isn't paid in case, but covers insurance, retirement, etc.

[Baloney]

This is why I will never buy a GM car!!!! They suck!!! If I want a truck I will buy a Nissan Titan!! I know where they are built!!! Mississippi USA!!!! GM can go under and never come back for all I care!!! WHen an executive makes 250 times the amount the union line worker makes something is wrong!!!! Government motors is dead to me!!

[bigdaddy]

You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?

Quit polluting the spew of meaningless rhetoric with your questions and all that sense-making and stuff.

[lcjc800]

:huh

You don't like the idea of growing a successful export line, while killing a money losing brand?

no, not that at all.
Just some of the usual uninformed nay sayers spouting off about GM sucking and or screwing them, ya know.....
Fact- the plant (Mexican) in question was opened in 1994 and idled in 2008. not a new plant by any means, but an already existing facility and asset. I myself don't like the sound of that, but that is the facts.
GM is a globally based business with assets like these placed as such.
GM has also announced new product for US based facilities too, one being the Tonawanda POWERTRAIN plt. in NY. But that's not fodder for them sucking.....
The SATURN plt in Spring Hill, TN, which I worked at from 1990 thru 1995, and have stayed in touch with several friends who worked there until just recently incidentally, was destined for failure from the start (for back ground read a book titled RIVETHEAD, tales from the assembly line by Ben Hamper). after selecting the site for the plant, GM was forced to place the buildings below grade so they couldn't be viewed from the road. This took millions of dollars to accomplish and added time and cost to the eventual opening of the plant. Though not 50 miles away NISSAN has their Smyrna, TN plant standing right on the road, there is also a plant in Dechard TN similarly. That is just the start of a never ending list of handicaps SAURN was plagued with.
SATURN employed about 5000 direct employees and somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 more in and around the plant. Most direct employees were GM already, transferring there from other facilities.
Internal BS plugged SATURN from the onset, it being Roger Smith's baby and he not being a crowd favorite cost it dearly when he was gone. None the less they made good products and developed many manufacturing processes, from lost foam casting to water bourne paints on body panels for a safer environment. The initial compliment of empoyees were hand picked by their peers, though management did the hiring on recomendation, that level of intergrity was amazing for that time, but soon over shadowed by politcaly correct BS.....
I myself had a lousy career there and might have even reveled at the lose of the brand, but that would not be the Team Member way...... (inside joke), it was sad to see it die, for myself, friends and industry, it was proclaimed the 100 year car company when opened. Many people got hurt...
Fact that it is a global entity (GM)and a huge portion of it's production is done off shore makes investment there a necessity, again I don't like the sound of that. Maintaining a strong manufacturing base and producing exportable goods is what will make or break an economy, look at what it is doing for the emerging giants in industry now. As we once were we must return, producing our own goods and exporting at a rate that can sustain us as a culture and society, stopping the export of jobs and import of goods.
I mentioned the NAFTA treaty earlier, that has been in place for years but people (here) either ignore that fact or don't know it exists, one side's sad and the other's ignorant.
All this conjecture and opinion is kind of cute but when you settle down and look at the huge pile of facts it's time to stop think and then act as to what is seen to best for our way of life, we can live as we are in a global economy, just not as service oriented non producers that rely of imports for our health welfare and defense......
I am a GM retiree and proud of that fact. By all known and acknowledge quality outlets, GM builds and sells automobiles that are at or above par within the industry, foreign and domestic, it's all just a simple Goggle search away.

[yellowecho]

Do you think this could be a political move to create more jobs in Mexico in order to reduce illegal immigration and thus reduce spending?

[lcjc800]

You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.


what is your source for this information? is there a link?:dunno

['70 RS]

no, not that at all.
Just some of the usual uninformed nay sayers spouting off about GM sucking and or screwing them, ya know.....

Got ya.

I thought your facepalm was directed at my comment about Buick being successful in the Chinese market, even if they don't hold a large share here.

[lcjc800]

Got ya.

I thought your facepalm was directed at my comment about Buick being successful in the Chinese market, even if they don't hold a large share here.
Doooooooood, I'm 53, a BUICK demographic:aok

['70 RS]

Doooooooood, I'm 53, a BUICK demographic:aok

Just imagine if you were 53 and Chinese? :love:

[lcjc800]

...no

['70 RS]

...no

:roll

[lcjc800]

:beer

I only aded the ... because i had to, no, though an answer, is too short.

[_jt_]

I think Germany provides a good example for us to emulate as appropriate. Here is a country with some of the highest labor costs in the world that still powers its economy through exports. My sense is that they do this with a combination of hyper-efficient manufacturing, and by delivering premium products that customers want to buy. I would imagine that there are government policies that also help this model succeed.

My Volkswagen was exported from Mexico.

[jazzguitar14]

IMO, it was a really bad idea to bail out GM. This "too big to fail" thing has gone too far! A real slap in the face to the American tax payer!

Amen +++++

[bennintexas]

if you're into free markets, capitalism blah blah blah, please do not complain.

[Mark C]

You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.

I agree that union demands have been part of the problem (Although I'm pretty sure that most of the line workers are not earning $76 an hour - that's an extreme scenario). But, so are the CEOs who run the companies into the ground for short term profits. And, if it weren't for unions, we'd all be working 90 hr weeks for just enough to eat. Everything is good in balance - what's wrong is there's no balance anymore. Everyone seems to want more than they deserve, and everything is someone else's fault, from politics, to economics.

Until we as a country can realize that we all have a stake in this, and we are all partly to blame, I don't think we'll improve the situation. On the consumer end - we can all choose what we support with our wallets. The freedom to choose is great, but it can have a cost if we never buy our own products.

And yes, I do have a foreign car (Toyota), as well as a Chevy pickup truck:Devil

[EdMan57]

what is your source for this information? is there a link?:dunno


Only the longest tenured employees make anything close to that $76 per hr [salary+benefits] figure.I have read that the more recent hires are making closer to $25 per hr [salary+benefits].


Ed

[MES10]

That whole "Too big to fail" thing really bugs me. How about "Too sh!tty to succeed"

[art_z]

This is why I will never buy a GM car!!!! They suck!!! If I want a truck I will buy a Nissan Titan!! I know where they are built!!! Mississippi USA!!!! GM can go under and never come back for all I care!!! WHen an executive makes 250 times the amount the union line worker makes something is wrong!!!! Government motors is dead to me!!

How much does the Nissan CEO make compared to their non-union workers?

I'm not arguing against your anger, just pointing out that the grass isn't necessarily greener at any other auto company.

[lcjc800]

Only the longest tenured employees make anything close to that $76 per hr [salary+benefits] figure.I have read that the more recent hires are making closer to $25 per hr [salary+benefits].


Ed
link, proof?

[hemlock50]

How much does the Nissan CEO make compared to their non-union workers?

I'm not arguing against your anger, just pointing out that the grass isn't necessarily greener at any other auto company.

Nissan's CEO made 9.5 mil at Nissan and 1.5 mil at Renault, which he also heads. Average income/benefits for Nissan workers is about $55/hr, plus a performance bonus last year (which was a bad year) of about $18k.


Mulally at Ford makes about $18 million. Ford's workers make about the same as Nissan's but, AFIK, there's no performance bonus.

In general, the difference between US CEO income and worker income is the greatest in the industrialized world, partly because CEO pay in several industrial nations is limited by law.

[Baloney]

How much does the Nissan CEO make compared to their non-union workers?

I'm not arguing against your anger, just pointing out that the grass isn't necessarily greener at any other auto company.

The average asian CEO makes around 10-15 times the workers salary. In the US the CEOs salaries are around 200 times the average workers salary. Its insane and thats the reason we need unions. Corporate executive greed is killing this country. They cut and cut just to feed the stock market beast until there is nothing but misery left for the people who do the real work.

Should the CEO of a company get 10 million while the average employee doesnt even get decent benefits such as insurance?? American execs think short term while the asian business plan thinks 25 years into the future.Short term greedy gains are the reason the US economy tanked!!

[j2b4o]

The US corporation is far too often run like a big company full of employees but no real boss in the end. Everyone tries to get something over on the boss all the way to the top where the CEO is simply a man without a boss, he is not the owner and therefore not responcable for things when they go to hell. So the CEO is just working a job like the rest of us. He wants as much money and as little effort as possible, and with no one to answer to except for a growing bottom line things get out of hand.

IMO this structure needs to be re thought and chained to a basic set of reasonable rules.

[conundrum]

The US corporation is far too often run like a big company full of employees but no real boss in the end. Everyone tries to get something over on the boss all the way to the top where the CEO is simply a man without a boss, he is not the owner and therefore not responcable for things when they go to hell. So the CEO is just working a job like the rest of us. He wants as much money and as little effort as possible, and with no one to answer to except for a growing bottom line things get out of hand.

IMO this structure needs to be re thought and chained to a basic set of reasonable rules.

Post of the decade.

[mattball826]

government motors to build in china..... is that new way to pay back?

[jcmark611]

government motors to build in china..... is that new way to pay back?

Yes. There's a few people in China and they might want to buy cars. They buy cars and the profits comes to the American stock holders. Huzzah!

[mattball826]

Yes. There's a few people in China and they might want to buy cars. They buy cars and the profits comes to the American stock holders. Huzzah!

this explain why they have to buy so many then:

YQLLNSEeGaE

[bluesjuke]

what is your source for this information? is there a link?:dunno


Aside from reading 3 GM employees, two recently former and one current.
Right around the time of the crap hitting the fan.
Yes, they are/were long term employes.

If the $25. salary/benefit thing is so that's not such a great deal on the other end too unless they are coming in totally green unskilled considering it's a combination of both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmark611 http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=9893109#post9893109)
You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?



Likely not as that's their biggest market.

[lcjc800]

Aside from reading 3 GM employees, two recently former and one current.
Right around the time of the crap hitting the fan.
Yes, they are/were long term employes.

If the $25. salary/benefit thing is so that's not such a great deal on the other end too unless they are coming in totally green unskilled considering it's a combination of both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmark611 http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=9893109#post9893109)
You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?



Likely not as that's their biggest market.

uh,

huh?

[jcmark611]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmark611 http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=9893109#post9893109)
You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?



Likely not as that's their biggest market.

And Mexico is centrally located to two big markets for GM with the US/Canada and South America.

[bluesjuke]

Yep, and so is Texas with it's GM presence too.

It also was not said that union workers earned $76/hour.
That was benefits and salary combined and as said an approximate (which of course varies among position and longetivity).
Benefits averaged (past tense) $42/hr.

The math shows it was a big part of the consumer end price.

$28 + $42= $70

Not saying the employees caused it all or the unions, of course not, but it play a part of the equation too.

[Smakutus]

this explain why they have to buy so many then:

YQLLNSEeGaE

Maybe the signs are all in Engrish?

What's up with the walkers and the bikes not looking each way before going through the intersections?

GM is supposedly announcing that they are adding a shift at the truck plant here in Flint and may add 650 workers, some of them brand new that will only make about half what an average GM worker in that plant is making.

Jeff

[jcmark611]

Here is an interesting stat I just found, which makes me wonder who is responsible for this....


How many hours does it take to build a car?


Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/how-many-hours-does-it-take-to-build-a-car#ixzz1BtGZA6e6



The amount of time varies depending on the vehicle, but industry averages for 2000 are:
Nissan 27.6
Honda 29.1
Toyota 31.1
Ford 39.9
General Motors 40.5
DaimlerChrysler 44.8

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/how-many-hours-does-it-take-to-build-a-car#ixzz1BtG3AAF7



Sounds like GM and Chrysler needed to do some serious streamlining.

[j2b4o]

Here is an interesting stat I just found, which makes me wonder who is responsible for this....



Sounds like GM and Chrysler needed to do some serious streamlining.

haven't had a good look under the skirt of a brand new chevy but many if not most of the previous models were designed body first. so much of the engineering went into making everything fit where they thought it should without changing whatever body shape they decided on. many things were buried underneath other parts to compensate and assembly time may have been affected because not as many components could be assembled at once. may be totally wrong but this may have been a factor.

from what I have seen the japanese tend to design a platform, with engine and all and than slap a few dozen bodies on that platform which streamlines assembly and design.

['70 RS]

A quick look at the top selling vehicles from 2000 (the year of those stats) shows more full size trucks/SUVs/Minivans from the American makers, while the Japanese brands tended to be smaller to mid-size sedans.

I wonder how that plays into the increased man hours as well.

[jcmark611]

haven't had a good look under the skirt of a brand new chevy but many if not most of the previous models were designed body first. so much of the engineering went into making everything fit where they thought it should without changing whatever body shape they decided on. many things were buried underneath other parts to compensate and assembly time may have been affected because not as many components could be assembled at once. may be totally wrong but this may have been a factor.

from what I have seen the japanese tend to design a platform, with engine and all and than slap a few dozen bodies on that platform which streamlines assembly and design.

Not sure how many cars GM were doing with this in 2000, but I do know they adapted this practice and even used platforms across the different brands.

As for trucks taking longer, I can see that, but 10-14 hours difference? That's really extreme unless they are counting the frame assembly in the hours.

[j2b4o]

Not sure how many cars GM were doing with this in 2000, but I do know they adapted this practice and even used platforms across the different brands.

As for trucks taking longer, I can see that, but 10-14 hours difference? That's really extreme unless they are counting the frame assembly in the hours.

very true it was just a thought. wonder if its slow union employees or a disorganized process.

['70 RS]

As for trucks taking longer, I can see that, but 10-14 hours difference? That's really extreme unless they are counting the frame assembly in the hours.

It was just a thought as to what could be one of many reasons for higher man hours. Age of facilities, waiting for sub-assemblies at final assembly, just plain old inefficiency, and of course making very different products. A few Chevy Suburbans vs. Toyota Camrys has got to skew the numbers a bit.

My only point was that a strict 'average hours to assemble vehicle' stat only tells a small part of the story with what was happening at each company when those stats were compiled.

It's still useful information though.

[EdMan57]

link, proof?



http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100619/BIZ/706199935




Ed

[jcmark611]

It was just a thought as to what could be one of many reasons for higher man hours. Age of facilities, waiting for sub-assemblies at final assembly, just plain old inefficiency, and of course making very different products. A few Chevy Suburbans vs. Toyota Camrys has got to skew the numbers a bit.

My only point was that a strict 'average hours to assemble vehicle' stat only tells a small part of the story with what was happening at each company when those stats were compiled.

It's still useful information though.

Another scary thing to think about is 40 hours is the AVERAGE. That means Ford, Chevy, and Dodge have cars that take 48 hours or longer to assemble! If they only had one shift running it would take over a week to build a car. That's just wrong.

[Scafeets]

Buy American:
BMW - made in South Carolina
Honda: made in Ohio
Toyota: made in Indiana and Texas
Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes: Made in Alabama
Kia: Made in Georgia
VW is opening a plant in Tennessee
Nissan: Made in Tennessee and Mississippi

[lcjc800]

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100619/BIZ/706199935




Ed
no help for your claim there.....

[lcjc800]

Buy American:
BMW - made in South Carolina
Honda: made in Ohio
Toyota: made in Indiana and Texas
Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes: Made in Alabama
Kia: Made in Georgia
VW is opening a plant in Tennessee
Nissan: Made in Tennessee and Mississippi

and every bit of profit is sent back to the country of origin. and when the dollar fluctuates against foreign currencies, production shifts to the most profitable manufacturing facility.
And though the US based plants are not unionized the plants in the original countries are, and those employees enjoy the same style benefits that US union workers do. ( with the possible exception of KIA).
And also taking into consideration, everyone of those plants was built here with HUGE LONG TERM TAX INCENTIVES for those facilities, so when they loose product the community they reside in suffers from revenue that comes from workers wages.
There is no "absolute best " in these scenarios, fact is what is best for Our economy!
When I lived in TN and worked for SATURN, every time there was a union organization drive at the local Nissan plant a whole lot of houses went up for sale after the drive failed, do I need to explain why?
Though the offshore Companies offer competitive wages and benefits the use of some benefits may cost you your job and with no one to defend you, after a few of your friends loose their jobs you don't cross the line....

[bigdaddy]

and every bit of profit is sent back to the country of origin....

This sentence alone shows that you have very little to no understanding of how the global economy - or for that matter, an automobile manufacturer - functions.

[lcjc800]

I disagree

[schmidlin]

I disagree
Ever heard of taxes?

[bigdaddy]

well, ok. I own one share of Honda stock. Last year they paid me a dividend of $.45. There's 45 pennies that weren't sent back to Japan, so, obviously not every bit of profit went back to the country of origin.

It makes for a nice forum rant, but it is nowhere near true.

[lcjc800]

I'm pretty sure profits are generaly available after all expenditures like taxes are paid, that's why they call it "profit".
let's see

Profit-
The positive (http://www.investorwords.com/10659/positive.html) gain (http://www.investorwords.com/2143/gain.html) from an investment (http://www.investorwords.com/2599/investment.html) or business (http://www.investorwords.com/623/business.html) operation (http://www.investorwords.com/3467/operation.html) after subtracting for all expenses (http://www.investorwords.com/1842/expense.html). opposite of loss (http://www.investorwords.com/2896/loss.html).

yeah that's the definition alright, after you pay the bills, but you go ahead and take it whenever you want, some of us will use the proper terms in the proper way...

[bigdaddy]

those are indeed profits. they are paid out to shareholders in the form of dividends.

[lcjc800]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/LCJC800/ron-white_jpg-2574.jpg

[jcmark611]

I'm confused.

Do we want jobs or do we want American companies?

[lcjc800]

whats wrong with both?

[jcmark611]

whats wrong with both?

There's a whole big world outside of America.:dunno

[lcjc800]

indeed there is, so if we make "stuff" for them here in our plants and our workers it stands to reason we would have both.
It used to be a lot like that, we made our "stuff" and some for them too, we should get back to more that line of thinking....
just sayin'

we need balance Danielson....

[jcmark611]

inded there is, so if we make "stuff" for them here in our plants and our workers it stands to reason we would have both.
It used to be a lot like that, we made our "stuff" and some for them too, we should get back to more that line of thinking....
just sayin'

we need balance Danielson....

True. Now who is going to motivate the youth of America to work in factories for $8-$10 an hour? Thats about the only way to bring those jobs back.

[lcjc800]

so which is it, pay a living wage or fail as an economy and society. Seems too many are dead set against a factory worker making money in the US. unless of course they're working for an off shore based manufacturer, but that's a Catch22.
unless there's a global willingness to sacrifice, which I don't see coming, anybody interested in living under a shingled roof 40 yrs from now better decide how business and government is gonna run in this country. or you'll be answering questions on the phone about computer toys in cantonese....

[hades_1123]

Actually I'm from Mexico =)

[lcjc800]

hola, we were just talking about you.....
kinda

[jcmark611]

so which is it, pay a living wage or fail as an economy and society. Seems too many are dead set against a factory worker making money in the US. unless of course they're working for an off shore based manufacturer, but that's a Catch22.
unless there's a global willingness to sacrifice, which I don't see coming, anybody interested in living under a shingled roof 40 yrs from now better decide how business and government is gonna run in this country. or you'll be answering questions on the phone about computer toys in cantonese....

The only people against factory workers making living wages in the US are American stockholders. Stockholders need their companies to turn the biggest profits possible.

There may come a day where a hot shot economist figures out a formula so companies can have a good balance of American factory workers to make a profit, and they maybe working on that now. Until then, the stockholders rule.

[lcjc800]

sad, but true...


but not written in stone, you may want to read the definitions of need and want and see which one fits your senario best and then rethink it.....

[EdMan57]

no help for your claim there.....


Maybe my original estimate was off a bit,but I believe that the link shows the new workers coming in at a substantially lower wage.



Ed

[j2b4o]

Maybe we should set up a system by which we could bet on business employment numbers like the stock market bets on company profit. Then there would be a want for more jobs because the employment share holders would want to see constant growth of employees. It would sure force more corperations to see more than just the bottom line.

[K-Line]

This is a true example of who runs the country....most think it is a politician of one arty or the other. Nah....it is the lobbyists! The rich rule, end of story.

[lcjc800]

Maybe my original estimate was off a bit,but I believe that the link shows the new workers coming in at a substantially lower wage.



Ed
yeah, that it does. nice try though, the 2 tier wage agreement has been in effect for nearly 15 yrs.

[jcmark611]

This is a true example of who runs the country....most think it is a politician of one arty or the other. Nah....it is the lobbyists! The rich rule, end of story.

You don't have stock?

[tiktok]

Maybe we should set up a system by which we could bet on business employment numbers like the stock market bets on company profit. Then there would be a want for more jobs because the employment share holders would want to see constant growth of employees. It would sure force more corperations to see more than just the bottom line.

No, corporations always focus on the bottom line, this would just add another line before the bottom line. "For-profit corporation" isn't just a snappy name.

[Travst]

The Tragedy of the Commons.

Is that a reference to Garrett Hardin? ;)

[Dalton]

yeah, that it does. nice try though, the 2 tier wage agreement has been in effect for nearly 15 yrs.

I'm pretty sure the two tier wage agreement was agreed upon during the last contract negotiation in 2007. There was a strike over this issue.

http://detnews.com/article/20070926/AUTO01/709260398/Sides-hammer-out-two-tier-wage-deal

[Jagsound]

The US corporation is far too often run like a big company full of employees but no real boss in the end. Everyone tries to get something over on the boss all the way to the top where the CEO is simply a man without a boss, he is not the owner and therefore not responcable for things when they go to hell. So the CEO is just working a job like the rest of us. He wants as much money and as little effort as possible, and with no one to answer to except for a growing bottom line things get out of hand.

IMO this structure needs to be re thought and chained to a basic set of reasonable rules.

Yeah, interesting - the separation of ownership and control. Certainly caused some problems in the finance sector, as back in the 80s most of the investment banks were partnerships where the partners were all personally liable for the failure of the company and the resulting debts. So therefore you ran things prudently and with proper assessment of risk.

Fast forward to 2008 where everything has been turned into a limited company, and a CEO that earned nearly 500 million over 7 years turned out to not know anything about running an investment bank. That bank has now disappeared forever.

Thankfully there are lots of small business people who, in fact, ARE the business and it means a great deal to them so they don't piss it away.

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Well, since management's primary responsibility are the ethical fiduciary interests of the company's shareholders it's no surprise these decisions are made this way. I haven't come across any shareholders who complain when their share prices go up.

[lcjc800]

I'm pretty sure the two tier wage agreement was agreed upon during the last contract negotiation in 2007. There was a strike over this issue.

http://detnews.com/article/20070926/AUTO01/709260398/Sides-hammer-out-two-tier-wage-deal


that wage structure was for non manufacturing jobs done in house.
Back in '96 when I was working at the DELPHI plant in Lockport, NY, new hires were brought in at 2/3 pay with the possibility to increase incrementally over time(yrs), yes DELPHI was still part of GM then, the spin off didn't occur until late 98, and this wage structure was enforced across GM. Most of th new employees from that era wwere laid off and very few brought back, even to this day and are subject to the latest contract agreed upon.

[lcjc800]

Well, since management's primary responsibility are the ethical fiduciary interests of the company's shareholders it's no surprise these decisions are made this way. I haven't come across any shareholders who complain when their share prices go up.

indeed, but that's a broad brush stroke that pretty much paints the world gray, taking into consideration, short term or long term and even whether or not it perpetuates the possibility of continued return to the same stakeholders.

[Dalton]

Yeah, interesting - the separation of ownership and control. Certainly caused some problems in the finance sector, as back in the 80s most of the investment banks were partnerships where the partners were all personally liable for the failure of the company and the resulting debts. So therefore you ran things prudently and with proper assessment of risk.

Fast forward to 2008 where everything has been turned into a limited company, and a CEO that earned nearly 500 million over 7 years turned out to not know anything about running an investment bank. That bank has now disappeared forever.

Thankfully there are lots of small business people who, in fact, ARE the business and it means a great deal to them so they don't piss it away.

I've wondered if "Business People" are really the right people to run companies. It seems like they should be advisor's to the "Idea People". I think the Ford is a good example of this. They were doing very poorly when the business folks (Jaques Nasser, then William Clay Ford II) were running the show. Then when Allen Mulally, who has an engineering background, took over, the company has flourished.

It seems like business men are bad for business.

[SlyStrat]

You are bitching about GM? What about the millions of other jobs lost to China?

[_jt_]

Let's say you loaned someone $5,000 dollars, they start to pay you back and then you hear they went out and purchased a Gibson R9 with cash. Would you be upset that the guy is spending his money on something like that instead of paying you back as quickly as possible?

I'd be upset if I loaned them $5000 to help their business keep my friends and family employed, and then they fired them and outsourced the work.

Then again, I'd be upset even if they never needed to borrow any money and still outsourced the work.

[smokey]

You are bitching about GM? What about the millions of other jobs lost to China?

Despite what people say on message boards, it's not a one way street. GM is kicking butt in the China market. Isn't this what we are looking for?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110124/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_global_sales

[markie]

This issue is so complex, and it's really the fault of everyone. GM for building a reputation in the 70's and 80's for building unreliable crap. Politicians, for allowing foreign competitors to dump cheap products on our soil and erode our consumer and manufacturing base. And finally, the consumer. GM was doing fine for a while there, building exactly what Americans wanted - big, gas guzzling SUVs that Suzy Soccer Mom felt she needed to safely carry a five pound toddler and a four ounce jar of nutmeg. They tried to build smaller cars, but no one would buy them - those consumers insisted on buying foreign cars. They've tried to manufacture in the US, but they can't get similar incentives from politicos that are given to some foreign car companies. They then build plants in other countries so they can compete on pricing, but that's a no-win situation as well.

This country has dug a hole for itself. We all want cheap goods, and we want them now. We demand jobs, but we aren't willing to pay prices that will allow a manufacturer to hire Americans at what is considered a living wage. Stockholders demand constant growth and dividends, so the dollar becomes the entire bottom line for every corporation. The people who run the corporations aren't interested in the long-term health of the company, they just want to get their millions immediately.

It's greed - from top to bottom. And we are all to blame.



This is very well put IMHO. However, I would like to add a few points of interest.

The Government (Politicians) began selling off our jobs many years ago. They brainwashed (to a degree) the american public into accepting cheap cheap products. They continued to to add incentives for big business to move out of this country, while continually adding regulation to make it more expensive to do business at home. This was done under the guise of better working conditions, fair pay, green environment, & the list goes on & on. Meanwhile these same politicians were/are quietly supporting harsh work enviornment, Slave (nearly) labor, child labor, & enviornmental disasters in other countries. Why would they do this? Dunno.......... I do wonder how all these politicians become multi-millionaires though. Most of them have never done anything but public servant work. Now we have become their servants.

[j2b4o]

No, corporations always focus on the bottom line, this would just add another line before the bottom line. "For-profit corporation" isn't just a snappy name.


Very true! Hard to be sure what the correct course of change should be given we only have true 20/20 once things have passed and we cannot change them.
Makes sense to be "for profit" because if not than what for? But a honest solid product and a well engineered assembly plants should definitely be almost as high on the list. They seem to go for the pennies right now vs the pounds in the future business strategy. "We made 500mil! Wait we could probably make a few hundred more......"

[starfish]

Gone Mexican

[tiktok]

Very true! Hard to be sure what the correct course of change should be given we only have true 20/20 once things have passed and we cannot change them.
Makes sense to be "for profit" because if not than what for? But a honest solid product and a well engineered assembly plants should definitely be almost as high on the list. They seem to go for the pennies right now vs the pounds in the future business strategy. "We made 500mil! Wait we could probably make a few hundred more......"

I'm not expecting GM to be driven by anything other than profit for the foreseeable future. Remember the C/K side-saddle tanks (http://motherjones.com/environment/2010/03/gm-ck-exploding-pickup)?

Publicly-traded companies exist to maximize shareholder profit. Period. Privately-held companies can afford to indulge 'well-engineered' over 'more-profitable'.

[HeeHaw]

Sorry but a big WTF when I saw this .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110120/ts_alt_afp/mexicousautocompanygm
That's going to do little for GM's reputation and you would think this should be invested in a GM plant in North-Am first since we bailed them out ?

Stupid...stupid...stupid !! :horse


GM probably couldn't trust the UAW to build an engine without screwing it up.

[HeeHaw]

GM has a fiduciary duty to provide a profit for it's shareholders. If they have to move to mexico to do it, then that's fine with me.

[tiktok]

Everyone bagging on 'lousy UAW workers' being the problem should read the history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI) of the GM/Toyota joint venture NUUMI plant.

[_jt_]

GM has a fiduciary duty to provide a profit for it's shareholders. If they have to move to mexico to do it, then that's fine with me.

What shareholders?

[EdMan57]

yeah, that it does. nice try though, the 2 tier wage agreement has been in effect for nearly 15 yrs.


I'm not really sure what point you are making.Or maybe you are just the type of person that likes to win in any discusion?Ok,you are right and I renounce my previous posts.


:dunno



Ed

['70 RS]

GM probably couldn't trust the UAW to build an engine without screwing it up.

wow..........


guess every thread has to hit a low at some point.

[j2b4o]

GM has a fiduciary duty to provide a profit for it's shareholders. If they have to move to mexico to do it, then that's fine with me.

Don't they have a duty also to make sure that the profit continues in the long term? Or is it more important to finish this year high and next in the gutter? Stocks are supposed to be long term aren't they?

[semi-hollowbody]

Cheaper cars for the rest of us.

GM's a company, they've had many overseas plants over the years. When it makes business sense, that's what they do.
The rest of us cant buy cars because our jobs have gone to mexico...I wonder how many GM vehicles they sell in mexico!
I will walk before I drive a GM...I work in the auto industry and GM has lead the rest in outsourcing...screw em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[semi-hollowbody]

wow..........


guess every thread has to hit a low at some point.
I know...I guess all the cars built here are made by little fairies after all those crappy union workers go home...otherwise how would they get built??
I have seen the good and bad with unions, and by far the good outweighs the bad (otherwise how the hell would any cars get built)..its just the bad that gets trumpeted and attention by the anti-unioners...

I am NOT a union employee and I never have been by the way...

[Barefoot]

GM has a fiduciary duty to provide a profit for it's shareholders. If they have to move to mexico to do it, then that's fine with me.

How does that square with what happened to the pre bail out bond holders?

On second thought it does make sense...They were mugged, had their money stolen and the thieves crossed the boarder into Mexico like back in the cowboy days.

[rob2001]

This needs repeating..........


Fact- the plant (Mexican) in question was opened in 1994 and idled in 2008. not a new plant by any means, but an already existing facility and asset. I myself don't like the sound of that, but that is the facts.
GM is a globally based business with assets like these placed as such.
GM has also announced new product for US based facilities too, one being the Tonawanda POWERTRAIN plt. in NY. But that's not fodder for them sucking.....

[ToneBrokerBill]

So, if they promised to move operations from this plant to the US, you'd all promise to buy a GM vehicle next time you're in the market for a car?

[smokey]

The rest of us cant buy cars because our jobs have gone to mexico...I wonder how many GM vehicles they sell in mexico!

In case you really wanted to know, GM sold 212,000 vehicles in Mexico in 2008. They were the sales leader until 2009 when Nissan passed them.

[padols]

This issue is so complex, and it's really the fault of everyone. GM for building a reputation in the 70's and 80's for building unreliable crap. Politicians, for allowing foreign competitors to dump cheap products on our soil and erode our consumer and manufacturing base. And finally, the consumer. GM was doing fine for a while there, building exactly what Americans wanted - big, gas guzzling SUVs that Suzy Soccer Mom felt she needed to safely carry a five pound toddler and a four ounce jar of nutmeg. They tried to build smaller cars, but no one would buy them - those consumers insisted on buying foreign cars. They've tried to manufacture in the US, but they can't get similar incentives from politicos that are given to some foreign car companies. They then build plants in other countries so they can compete on pricing, but that's a no-win situation as well.

This country has dug a hole for itself. We all want cheap goods, and we want them now. We demand jobs, but we aren't willing to pay prices that will allow a manufacturer to hire Americans at what is considered a living wage. Stockholders demand constant growth and dividends, so the dollar becomes the entire bottom line for every corporation. The people who run the corporations aren't interested in the long-term health of the company, they just want to get their millions immediately.


It's greed - from top to bottom. And we are all to blame.

Very well said sir.
It is a new world and America will never be what she once was. We all have to adjust our way of looking at the "global economy" and decide that if we want manufacturing jobs we are going to have to go to the places where they are India, China, Taiwan, Korea to get them. They are not coming home in our lifetime or until it becomes more expensive for goods to be manufactured off shore than in the US. It's a shame really we have eaten the golden goose.

[Jagsound]

I know...I guess all the cars built here are made by little fairies after all those crappy union workers go home...otherwise how would they get built??
I have seen the good and bad with unions, and by far the good outweighs the bad (otherwise how the hell would any cars get built)..its just the bad that gets trumpeted and attention by the anti-unioners...

I am NOT a union employee and I never have been by the way...

IMO there isn't that much of a conceptual difference between lobby groups and unions, but union is a dirty word it seems.

[lcjc800]

You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.

I'm not really sure what point you are making.Or maybe you are just the type of person that likes to win in any discusion?Ok,you are right and I renounce my previous posts.


:dunno



Ed


the point I am making is unsubstantiated claims in threads like this, complex situations rendered down and intended to be inflammatorily "THE ANSWER".
The fact that wages add to the cost of products should be of no surprise to anyone, Big 3 labor cost is 10% to products. I don't know how or when it was decided that autoworkers benefits, parking spots, their fellow workers retirement and probably shower room, is added to their hourly wage to be used as a means of labeling them greed, lazy... whatever.
All sorts of people have jobs that are represented by unions, they have benefits, they add to the cost of their services and products, I've yet to see a thread here attack those situations. And most of those services aren't a choice you get to make like buying a vehicle, I'm not attacking, I'm just saying.
Manufacturers move offshore to cut costs and they do that on both sides of our border. We send jobs to Mexico and other low cost countries to increase the bottom line, Japanese, German and Korean builders do that here, maybe for different individual reasons, but all those companies have union represented workers in the country of origin. Which brings me to this, how did only the UAW end up with the lazy useless workers, the transplant employees drink the same water and eat the same foods and attend the same schools and such as UAW people, whats up with that. Anybody recall a time when the only thing worth owning labeled Made In Japan was a live album by Deep Purple, show me the 1972 Datsuns in your garages, oh yeah Datsun, that's what Nissan called itself when they were making disposable junk. They changed and now make a respectable vehicle, and by all reports so do the Big 3 and the UAW. I'd look and see which foreign manufacturers got loans from their governments, it happened, in different ways and varying amounts of transparency...after the circus that went on here in our arena, you don't have to pay for commercials when the media will cover your competition in a bad light. (Datsun was not in my spell check dictionary......)
Sticky gas pedal anyone?

And as far as keeping and returning factory jobs to the US, we'd better get a move on because all the geniuses I see wandering around with their Ipods plugged into their heads can't all be lawyers, doctors or other service providers, but maybe that will drive down those costs too...
"Have you been injured or hurt, I CAN GET YOU MONEY!!!!!!"

[Ultron]

I'm looking to buy a 2011 GMC Acadia...I have no qualms or issues with that whatsoever.

[tiktok]

And as far as keeping and returning factory jobs to the US, we'd better get a move on because all the geniuses I see wandering around with their Ipods plugged into their heads can't all be lawyers, doctors or other service providers, but maybe that will drive down those costs too...
"Have you been injured or hurt, I CAN GET YOU MONEY!!!!!!"

An increase in factory workers will definitely increase the demand for personal-injury lawyers and doctors! Factory workers don't get paid great wages because what they do is difficult--it's because it's dangerous and boring.

[_jt_]

Fact- the plant (Mexican) in question was opened in 1994 and idled in 2008. not a new plant by any means, but an already existing facility and asset. I myself don't like the sound of that, but that is the facts.

1994? Listen to everything he says and add 15 years to 1994. Not many people are laughing now.

EHSnXFEzE4E

[padols]

1994? Listen to everything he says and add 15 years to 1994. Not many people are laughing now.

EHSnXFEzE4E
Exactly.
P

[nondeplume]

1994? Listen to everything he says and add 15 years to 1994. Not many people are laughing now.

EHSnXFEzE4E

...as a nation we put more thought into the 'background/experience/work history-ethic' when hiring a stock clerk, than the 'mental midgets' we continually hire to 'represent' us as a whole.

We're worse than a naive damsel melting to the symphonic sonnets of undying love softly coo'd into ear at lovers point...after a few sips

:drink

..with almost the same reaction....the day after....give or take.....three, maybe four weeks....

[markie]

My Congressman is one of the potential GOP Candidates for the 2012 Presidential election................. Nice!




Mr Pence,
Congrats on your recent victory for another term. Seems as if the masses are willing to give you another opportunity. I am writing today for the umpteenth time about the trade imbalance in this country. It is my hopes that I do not get the same generic response that your office has sent numerous times before. It seems that trade laws are out of whack. I have lost business (Automotive Water-pumps) to China on parts that they sell for less than the raw material cost for me. Is this what you would call "Fair Trade"? My business is less than 1/2 of what it was just 6-7 years ago. China currency is under valued, they get tax subsidies from their government, they charge us tariff's while paying none, India charges 27% tariff for my product while paying none in return. Please explain to me how a group of politicians sit in a room & decide this sounds like fair trade? Wow, I wonder why unemployment is at such staggering numbers. You guys are getting ready to vote unemployment benefits to an unprecedented 149 weeks. Did you vote for all of these extensions....... probably not. Did you vote for any of them.............. I would guess so. Just a ruse that politicians use to stay in office IMHO. Dupe the people into thinking that DC is doing all these great things (free money), keeps the average guy from seeing reality. The reality is that the government has been selling out our jobs for the past 25 years & there are no jobs. The government has offered me a tax credit to hire people. Hire them to do what? I am deeply disappointed in my government & will likely be out of business in another 5 years. It may not be to late for DC to fix things. I have said this to you on many occasions before, but I will say it again: God help our Grandchildren......... for we have sold them down the river!
Regards,
Mark 　
　
　
　
　
Response Congressman Mike Pence 　
Dear Mark:
People ID: 7173466
Thank you for contacting me about your concerns with America's free trade agreements. It was a pleasure to hear from you.
Free trade is a vital part of any plan to restore economic growth in America. When American companies are given the chance to compete in the world economy, they not only compete, but they succeed. I believe that free trade agreements will increase American's prosperity if the agreements are adhered to by both sides. We must remain vigilant in ensuring countries such as China and Mexico honor their commitment towards such agreements.
Throughout my time in Congress, I have generally supported free trade agreements because trade means jobs, especially on the Indiana farm. In these tough economic times, it is the responsibility of those in government to put our nation back on the path toward economic growth. By setting an even playing field through free trade agreements, I believe we can not only create new jobs, but rededicate ourselves to the principles of limited government and economic freedom.
Again, thank you for contacting me. It is an honor to serve in the United States House of Representatives and have the benefit of your advice. If you would like more information on this or any other issue, please visit my website at http://mikepence.house.gov (http://mikepence.house.gov/).

['70 RS]

It is my hopes that I do not get the same generic response that your office has sent numerous times before.


It was worth a try.

[rob2001]

1994? Listen to everything he says and add 15 years to 1994. Not many people are laughing now.





True enough but why is GM the only US automaker getting slammed for having plants in other countries?

[tiktok]

True enough but why is GM the only US automaker getting slammed for having plants in other countries?

Oh, they all take flak for it, but if you take a huge bailout from the taxpayers, you get more flak.

[tapeworm]

guaranteed at any GM plant/facility you go to in the US the majority of the cars in the parking lot are foreign made.

[lcjc800]

:facepalm

['70 RS]

Someone needs to make the official Gear Page List Of All Companies That Have Received Government Loans so we can keep track of who we are supposed to be angry at, never buy from again, hope they go under, and put in our 'Dead To Me' file.

Of course to be fair, we need a list of all foreign companies that receive loans, backing, and policy support from their governments so our outrage is evenly dispersed.


Y'all gonna have a lot of extra money in your pockets.

[scottl]

Let's add the companies that got loans and then repaid them in full, plus interest, plus warrant buybacks, creating nice double digit returns for the treasury and taxpayers.

TARP were LOANS and not freebies.

Someone needs to make the official Gear Page List Of All Companies That Have Received Government Loans so we can keep track of who we are supposed to be angry at, never buy from again, hope they go under, and put in our 'Dead To Me' file.

Of course to be fair, we need a list of all foreign companies that receive loans, backing, and policy support from their governments so our outrage is evenly dispersed.


Y'all gonna have a lot of extra money in your pockets.

[loudboy]

guaranteed at any GM plant/facility you go to in the US the majority of the cars in the parking lot are foreign made.

Just the ones with dents and scratches on them...

['70 RS]

Let's add the companies that got loans and then repaid them in full, plus interest, plus warrant buybacks, creating nice double digit returns for the treasury and taxpayers.

TARP were LOANS and not freebies.

I think we should start with the Transcontinental Railroad.
Let's get back to our roots before all of this market meddling.

[Boris Bubbanov]

You think people in Japan get upset that their biggest selling cars and their biggest auto manufacturers are building cars in America and not Japan?

No, because the profits and the crucial decisionmaking still tend to end up in Japan. Exceptions of course, for example, Renault's stake in Nissan, etc.

For whatever reason, the models of (pick your mfg., Honda, Toyota, etc.) these companies seem to be arranged where the high profit per unit vehicles tend still to be made in Japan. And my S-2000 was 100% Japanese content until I started replacing tires, batteries, etc. The issue is, who is wearing the pants as I see it.

[Boris Bubbanov]

I agree... Look what they did (or didn't do) with SATURN.

I WANT SATURN BACK!!!

We wife and I have owned 3 SATURNs in the past 17 years. I put 240,000+ miles on my "93" SL2. My wife's 2002 SL2 has run without a hitch. My 2004 ION was a victim of the poorly designed automatic transmission fiasco. The first replacement tranny didn't even last a year. The newest one has been OK so far (knock on wood). The upside to the transmission issue is that BOTH were replaced for free!

Our local BUICK - GMC dealer (former SATURN dealer) keeps bugging me to buy a BUICK. The only people I see driving BUICKS around here are 80+ year olds that don't know what the accelerator pedal is for!

I am very angry Saturn was ever born.

You got seduced; that never needed to happen.

I consider Saturn to be the poster child for where and why GM went wrong. The same decision makers who concocted Saturn are the ones who drove this mighty juggernaut into the ground, in my estimation.

You want off the planet. I understand that concept - very common sentiment amongst Saturn drivers and former drivers. The average Saturn buyer disliked cars and disliked driving and it is a shame there wasn't a public transit system for you - you could've lived life free from cars, perhaps.

Which brings me to GM's other outrageous action: Killing mass transit in many of our communities. Ironic, isn't it?

Never owned a Buick but I'd much rather share the road with them, as old as they may be sometimes, because a lot of their drivers still love cars, love driving, and love the idea of owning and looking after a car. If you love what you're doing you tend to do the best you possibly can.

[jcmark611]

No, because the profits and the crucial decisionmaking still tend to end up in Japan. Exceptions of course, for example, Renault's stake in Nissan, etc.

For whatever reason, the models of (pick your mfg., Honda, Toyota, etc.) these companies seem to be arranged where the high profit per unit vehicles tend still to be made in Japan. And my S-2000 was 100% Japanese content until I started replacing tires, batteries, etc. The issue is, who is wearing the pants as I see it.

So, where do the profits of a GM Mexican plant go? Korea?

[bluesjuke]

the point I am making is unsubstantiated claims in threads like this, complex situations rendered down and intended to be inflammatorily "THE ANSWER".


How come you didn't quote this?
Clearly says it's not "THE ANSWER";
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=9897965&postcount=105

bluesjuke-
"Yep, and so is Texas with it's GM presence too.

It also was not said that union workers earned $76/hour.
That was benefits and salary combined and as said an approximate (which of course varies among position and longetivity).
Benefits averaged (past tense) $42/hr.

The math shows it was a big part of the consumer end price.

$28 + $42= $70

Not saying the employees caused it all or the unions, of course not, but it play a part of the equation too."



The numbers are correct, not unsubstaintiated.
You were there, you know that.

I have nothing against unions, people earning a good wage or benefits.
Been a member of several including the Machinist & Aerospace Workers Union as well.

Point is the UAW led the way in pushing, and pushing far with the power of threat until they took a larger & larger chunk with their demands.
This is not opinion, it is history.

As said only a part of what came down, again not "THE ANSWER".
I also have nothing against the product.
I also recall when in '80 prices jumped through the roof in one year.

[lcjc800]

You're forgetting the greedy union demands that negate this statement.

They didn't ask a living wage or even better than that they wanted it all.

With benefits added the equivilent of approximately $76. an hour?
Kind of insane if you ask me and believe me the consumer had no part in that.

you missed this one, regardless, my last post is as it stands. Auto workers have had their compensation dragged through cities and countrysides, no one else does. and no one ever has the same numbers, not even you in the same thread.
I know what i was paid and what for, I can also say what was given back in contracts as far back as the early 1980's.
My point being factory workers are fairly compensated for the tasks they perform, I don't like seeing domestic capital sent out of this country but that will happen and if your going to include the cost of benefits to a groups wage, do it for everybody and use the same math, numbers and stand by your claims

[markie]

guaranteed at any GM plant/facility you go to in the US the majority of the cars in the parking lot are foreign made.


Wow, Guaranteed..............really? Any GM plant...........really?

[bigdaddy]

No, because the profits and the crucial decisionmaking still tend to end up in Japan.


This is still as misguided, simplistic and downright wrong as it was 10 pages ago.

[j2b4o]

True enough but why is GM the only US automaker getting slammed for having plants in other countries?

because they were the one that failed miserably and by RAND's standards(the biggest author of capitalism) they should have been allowed to die to allow new job creating companies to grow. but instead they got billions while the average joe lost his home so they could continue to make damn sure no new, healthy, necessary US competition gets off the ground.

the sheer number of american car startups that got shafted and run out of town by GM is nauseating.

I WANT A NEW TUCKER DAMNIT!!!!

[_jt_]

Let's add the companies that got loans and then repaid them in full, plus interest, plus warrant buybacks, creating nice double digit returns for the treasury and taxpayers.

... and did so without screwing their stockholders? Hmm...

['70 RS]

... and did so without screwing their stockholders? Hmm...

How would the stockholders have fared if the doors were locked?

['70 RS]

and by RAND's standards.....


Well, as long as we're basing public policy on fantasy, I've got a few suggestions as well.

[fredgarvin]

California invested $350 million of the public employee pension fund in mexican timeshares. That will probably fix the upside down situation they are currently in. Because they fritzed it up in Cali and the mexicans are growing, growing, growing.

[bluesjuke]

you missed this one, regardless, my last post is as it stands. Auto workers have had their compensation dragged through cities and countrysides, no one else does. and no one ever has the same numbers, not even you in the same thread.
I know what i was paid and what for, I can also say what was given back in contracts as far back as the early 1980's.
My point being factory workers are fairly compensated for the tasks they perform, I don't like seeing domestic capital sent out of this country but that will happen and if your going to include the cost of benefits to a groups wage, do it for everybody and use the same math, numbers and stand by your claims


No my numbers don't contradict.
You missed "approximately" which I narrowed down to a more accurate figure.
That why I said approximately the first time.

The reason for the dragging throught the countryside is that the union operating in the plants of the Big 3 were the ones that bought those wages packages to those heights.
They were the leaders, if you will, in doing so.

Again, I don't begrudge anyone making what they can. High demands were passed on to the consumer, no one doubts that and that was my point in the first place that it played a role, not the only one the biggest part but yes a part.

Don't forget, the nation was a witness to many of the very public negotiations throughout the decades.
We all recall it being a very big deal on the nightly news over the years.

[nitehawk55]

My point to starting this whole thread was this.....

When GM and Chrysler were bailed out so they would not close was it not stated that this was being done to save and create jobs ? I recall a certain important person touring Ohio and Detroit and saying that things would be turned around in what used to be the automobile capitals of the USA ?
Well it looks to me like that is not the case , is it ? When I saw that artical my responce was exactly that...WTF ! Correct me if I'm wrong , but doesn't that simply seem wrong when GM could have and should have retooled and reopened one of the plants in Ohio or Detroit as we were promised would happen when this whole saving of these companies went down ?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but I'm pretty sure there was a statement and guarantee made that this bail out / loan would be the restarting of the auto industry in the USA (and Canada) and would put 1000's back to work .

[_jt_]

How would the stockholders have fared if the doors were locked?

Pretty much the exact same way they did but according to scottl everyone made money, birds were chirping, and a butterfly landed on a unicorn's horn. Yet the stockholders got shafted. I've seen it countless times in the market. The stockholders assume all risk with no recourse. All that money goes poof while the company magically rebounds from financial hardship one way or another.

[_jt_]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but ...

No, I think you nailed it.

[bluesjuke]

Anyway, I love my GMC and plan on buying more.
That may be a while as this one now keeps going & going......

['70 RS]

Pretty much the exact same way they did.


No.

[nitehawk55]

No, I think you nailed it.

Well I hope so because for the life of me I do not understand why when the USA and Canada put up billions to save these companies they are allowed to send this money to a country that did nothing and create 1000 jobs there .

[rob2001]

My point to starting this whole thread was this.....

When GM and Chrysler were bailed out so they would not close was it not stated that this was being done to save and create jobs ? I recall a certain important person touring Ohio and Detroit and saying that things would be turned around in what used to be the automobile capitals of the USA ?
Well it looks to me like that is not the case , is it ? When I saw that artical my responce was exactly that...WTF ! Correct me if I'm wrong , but doesn't that simply seem wrong when GM could have and should have retooled and reopened one of the plants in Ohio or Detroit as we were promised would happen when this whole saving of these companies went down ?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but I'm pretty sure there was a statement and guarantee made that this bail out / loan would be the restarting of the auto industry in the USA (and Canada) and would put 1000's back to work .


Ya, it is aggravating as hell. But I don't recall any specific provisions when the bailouts happened. I guess I just assumed American jobs would be saved (and they were). I saw the bailouts as a band aid to a much deeper problem and actual job creation would require more than just bailouts.

As far as GM investing in Mexico, it's not just them. And there are more reasons the auto makers are doing business there. It has a lot to do with Mexico's trade agreements with Europe and other markets. And this is getting into that which we shouldn't discuss so.....

Here's a good read about ALL US auto makers heading for the boarder....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-09/gm-ford-to-accelerate-growth-at-mexico-plants-where-workers-get-26-a-day.html

[tiktok]

Compare the number of American jobs that would have been lost had GM been allowed to go under--actual GM employees, parts suppliers, all the goods that those workers buy, versus how many of those that are around post-bailout, even with the Mexican engine factory. Which of those two options is more appealing?

[_jt_]

No.

Why not? Because there is a difference between a worthless trillion to one reverse split instead of just losing everything?

[rob2001]

In other news....GM just added 750 jobs to it's Flint plant.

['70 RS]

Compare the number of American jobs that would have been lost had GM been allowed to go under--actual GM employees, parts suppliers, all the goods that those workers buy, versus how many of those that are around post-bailout, even with the Mexican engine factory. Which of those two options is more appealing?

That's the exact point I bring up time after time with these GM threads. The only answer that comes back is based on ideological purity...let 'em fail.

Sorry, but with the world economy holding it's breath waiting to be hit with the latest horrible news at that time I certainly wasn't wanting to sit around and see how much farther a free fall was going to take us. Someone somewhere had to stand up and supply just a bit of stability....and I'm damn glad there were enough people willing to sit in a room and hammer out a deal.

You guys can nit-pick about the details for the next 25 years for all I care, I will continue to give every bit of my support to everyone that helped keep the auto industry alive in the U.S. and kept who knows how many more people from losing their homes, adding to the unemployment rolls, forcing the closure of even more schools, cutting back on more emergency services and adding even more to budget deficits due to the decreased tax revenue and increased expenses.

[lcjc800]

the Mexican medium duty assembly plant will be importing US made power trains built in Romulus, MI and transmissions from the US and France. woops there's that pesky "global" thingy again for the US based company that borrowed money from the US government and paid it back, that the government still owns a chunk of that gets tax money from employees, the corp and so forth on a local and state level doing business all over the world so it can do the right thing and return all it's "profits" to the share holders and not improve it's self or reinvest or anything positive like that because they built crap 35 yrs ago and my daddy sez.......
yeah you're all right, it's too complicated and convoluted to comprehend, they should have burned them all like witches and damned them to hell for screwing the bond holders and all. what with all those bankruptcy laws and public hearings and such, I am soooooooo glad I can come here and be informed of everything I should and shouldn't know about these things, it's all so exciting.

who do we burn next?

:sarcasm

I gotta go get something to eat so I can a put pic in the other thread and post baloney.

[hades_1123]

Great !!!!!!:phones

[rob2001]

Great !!!!!!:phones


:D:D:D

[art_z]

Over the past 30 years, income has grown nearly 300 percent for the top 1 percent, but only 25 percent for middle-income Americans.

Yet somehow its the American worker that's the greedy one. Good to know.

[Grun]

I think we should start with the Transcontinental Railroad.
Let's get back to our roots before all of this market meddling.
Transcontinential railroad was a boondoggle like no other. Railroad company 'robber barons' filled their coffers with government supported bond sails and grabbing land including miles on both sides of the tracks. This is really nothing new. There were jobs for those who wanted to work.

[Melodyman]

I kind of wanted GM to fail and go under I admit. Since GM gets my money via the subsidized bailout I see no reason why I should actually purchase a vehicle from them now.

I want to buy vehicles from companies that can succeed on their own, just imo.

I had a friend that bragged GM gave him $100K to walk away from his job, sounds like a fresh start to me. lol...

He used to tell me how his father made 6 figures (with OT) as a maintenance worker who fixed machines at local GM plant, and like the Maytag man just sat around reading the paper waiting for something to break.

Nobody can tell me they didn't have it good and took it as far as they could until it all folded under itself.

I know management screwed up too and were greedy...I'm not an apologist for them by any means! By letting them fail hopefully a better management team would have risen from the ashes but who knows.

It just seemed like there was a lazy entitlement culture that the union cultivated, and profited from growing into a huge business entity of it's own.

[lcjc800]

like I said, burn em... dinner was great

['70 RS]

Transcontinential railroad was a boondoggle like no other. Railroad company 'robber barons' filled their coffers with government supported bond sails and grabbing land including miles on both sides of the tracks. This is really nothing new. There were jobs for those who wanted to work.

You missed the point entirely.

[EdMan57]

...the point I am making is unsubstantiated claims in threads like this, complex situations rendered down and intended to be inflammatorily "THE ANSWER"...

While you do state your case quite well [which much I agree],you do seem to come across as somewhat condescensing ["nice try,though"] and a bit of a know it all.I was simply giving a link that shows that not every GM worker was making anything close to $76 per hr.I don't pretend to have answers,but I do find this subject to be of much interest.



Ed

[lcjc800]

While you do state your case quite well [which much I agree],you do seem to come across as somewhat condescensing ["nice try,though"] and a bit of a know it all.I was simply giving a link that shows that not every GM worker was making anything close to $76 per hr.I don't pretend to have answers,but I do find this subject to be of much interest.



Ed

as do I, because it was my life. and I was being a smart ass there, no insult intended, things lose their implied intent sometimes in print. But you're not the first person to say that, so I'm thinking I have that gene. I spent over 30 years working for GM and have piles of contract books, appendages and updates, local and national dating back to 1974.

everybody's got a story or "knows a guy" about someone who dogged it in a plant( why is it when they f-ck off at work it's true but when they catch the big fish or the hole in one they're lying), maybe they do maybe they did, not any more. research the number of employees from the heydays of the Big 3 v the number of units produced, and look at today's ratio. Job loading(actual value added content) is somewhere in the vicinity of 94%, so 56.4 minutes of every hour, or sec/min incidentally, an assembler is doing the task required at their station, these people rotate jobs within a work unit and they do it for the entire shift, minus breaks which are 23 minutes paid before and after lunch, pretty much standard in the industry. machine floor or part suppliers operate multiple machines, handle rough stock and finish parts to maintain thru put, do gage audits, gage parts, and maintain their work areas. Some machines in departments have multiple heads(BIG, some as big as your garage) containing dozens of drills, or reamers or taps, which require changing, setting and gagging al monitored by computer that collects data and input from operators. Maintenance workers are skilled trades some of which are Master mechanics - tool makers, Machine or gearbox repair, etc, others are plant engineering - tin smiths/ welders/ millwrights, pipe and steam fitters, electricians, etc, there are lines of demarcation, they came from Europe and they exist for a reason, these machines are big, dangerous, expensive and demand a knowledgeable hand. The number of tradesmen in plant has fallen drastically, I could go on for pages. people here don't give up the past, they don't acknowledge change and they pretty much don't care about facts, it's all over the Internet if you look, all the facts are there. If they want to be informed or claim to be but don't have the use of available knowledge who's at fault or uninformed?
If you just don't like GM then say so, GM doesn't care, they're still here so is the UAW so are the contracts and the Government involvement, don't like it, vote.
But remember if you loose manufacturing jobs with corps like these who will build your weapons of war? Whom provides the tools for our defense, we gonna buy SCUDs from the Chinese and Russian fighters.
People need to get beyond themselves and look at a much bigger, global picture, Our culture doesn't need to fade, it can be just as big as it once was if we balance the scales and keep more than just the bottom line in mind, we need to project it into the future.

[Grun]

You missed the point entirely.

Fair enough. Point being?

['70 RS]

Fair enough. Point being?

The point was that there appears to be a very vocal group of people right now that rage against this unprecedented government interference in the marketplace. That some people get benefits greater than others. That the hard working taxpayer is getting screwed. That we have entered a new era.

It ain't new.

It's been here since day one.

It will never go away.

You are absolutely correct about the railroad Robber Barons (I see the monuments of their wealth in and around my city everyday). However, each and every one of us should be thankful that the people in charge at that time felt it was worth the graft, backroom dealing, cooking of the books, and outright backstabbing of their chief engineer (Judah) to connect the coasts by state of the art transportation.

[EricPeterson]

The point was that there appears to be a very vocal group of people right now that rage against this unprecedented government interference in the marketplace. That some people get benefits greater than others. That the hard working taxpayer is getting screwed. That we have entered a new era.

It ain't new.

It's been here since day one.

It will never go away.

You are absolutely correct about the railroad Robber Barons (I see the monuments of their wealth in and around my city everyday). However, each and every one of us should be thankful that the people in charge at that time felt it was worth the graft, backroom dealing, cooking of the books, and outright backstabbing of their chief engineer (Judah) to connect the coasts by state of the art transportation.


As usual you bring needed reasonableness and perspective to the thread. :aok





Here is another one, everyone bitching about GM sending Jobs to Mexico should consider that this is the result of free trade, it is the result of a lack of government interference. Just saying.

['70 RS]

As usual you bring needed reasonableness to the thread. :aok

I'm still not gonna buy you that guitar you want.

[EricPeterson]

I'm still not gonna buy you that guitar you want.


:roll:roll

[fredgarvin]

stupid is as stupid posts.

[lcjc800]

http://www.packmentality.net/forum/Smileys/default/whoosh.gif

['70 RS]

General Motors is withdrawing its application for $14.4 billion in low-interest loans from the Department of Energy, saying it has enough liquidity to modernize its plants itself to build fuel-efficient vehicles.

The move is part of GM’s plan to eliminate most of its debt and fully fund its pension plans. After receiving $50 billion in government aid in 2008 and 2009, the post-bankruptcy company has prioritized self-sufficiency, design chief Ed Welburn said today at the Washington auto show.

"We're confident of our progress and the strong global performance of our company,” Welburn said. "We are committed to keeping our financial house in order."

GM originally applied for a $10.4 billion loan in August 2008, Welburn said. The company’s 2009 taxpayer-funded bankruptcy nullified that request, so GM reapplied in October 2009, this time for $14.4 billion in government loans.

But GM now has more than $20 billion in liquidity and successfully returned to the stock market in November, decreasing the U.S. government’s ownership from 61% to about a third. So GM plans to fund the planned factory improvements itself, instead of using the Department of Energy loans.

"I think we're in a very different position today than we were then,” Welburn said. "I would certainly think that the American public would feel better about that."

Ford is the only Detroit automaker to restructure without a federally funded bankruptcy, which boosted consumers’ perception of the company. The Dearborn automaker has already received approval to use $5.9 billion of the $25 billion Energy Department loan program, aimed at manufacturing of high-tech, fuel-efficient vehicles.

Chrysler, which also received federal funding for its 2009 bankruptcy, is still waiting to hear the results of its application for the green manufacturing loans.

Congress passed the Energy Department loan program in December 2007. Along with the Ford loan, the Energy Department has also approved $1.6 billion to Nissan, $465 million to California electric-vehicle maker Tesla Motors and $528.7 million to plug-in hybrid startup Fisker Automotive.

[tiktok]

You are absolutely correct about the railroad Robber Barons (I see the monuments of their wealth in and around my city everyday). However, each and every one of us should be thankful that the people in charge at that time felt it was worth the graft, backroom dealing, cooking of the books, and outright backstabbing of their chief engineer (Judah) to connect the coasts by state of the art transportation.

See also: the Brooklyn Bridge. So many of the big civic projects we take for granted would never have been built without tremendous graft. People are unrealistic as to how much things cost.

['70 RS]

See also: the Brooklyn Bridge. So many of the big civic projects we take for granted would never have been built without tremendous graft. People are unrealistic as to how much things cost.

Absolutely.

Humans are humans.

You need to assume someone somewhere is gonna figure out a way to get over on someone else and find a personal advantage. Once you realize that, you figure out the ways to minimize it to a point that it doesn't overwhelm the good that will be accomplished by continuing with the project.

It's easy to sit back and find thousands of instances where things aren't perfect. Congratulations, you've succeeded in tearing down something. Now, what are you going to do to move forward?

Life ain't a bumper sticker. It's complicated, messy, and rarely goes exactly as planned.

[fredgarvin]

stupid is as stupid posts.
I have no idea what I meant by that post , I was drunk and maybe on the wrong thread. :dunno:drink but anyway, I'm with '70rs and Lcjc800. and stoopid, I guess.

[lcjc800]

yeah, but.........awesome!

[EricPeterson]

I have no idea what I meant by that post , I was drunk and maybe on the wrong thread. :dunno:drink but anyway, I'm with '70rs and Lcjc800. and stoopid, I guess.

I thought it fit perfectly. Drunk or not. :aok







DISCLAIMER - I might have been drunk when I read it. :drink


:dunno