Starting a guitar store in the Bay Area, CA.

[Songman]

Would it be a good idea to start a boutique guitar store in Bay Area, California? I ask because Bay is very large with huge population. However reletive to North Carolina, Texas, or even South California, out guitar store selection is very poor.

The other thread where a person is asking for guitar stores to visit, I could not think of single dealer who carried Grosh, Suhr, Tyler, Melancon, etc. I don't know why this is...perhaps demographic of people living here or not having lots of music scene or studio???

What do you guys think? bad idea and risky in this area? If so, why do you think this is???

['70 RS]

Would it be a good idea to start a boutique guitar store in Bay Area, California? I ask because Bay is very large with huge population. However reletive to North Carolina, Texas, or even South California, out guitar store selection is very poor.

The other thread where a person is asking for guitar stores to visit, I could not think of single dealer who carried Grosh, Suhr, Tyler, Melancon, etc. I don't know why this is...perhaps demographic of people living here or not having lots of music scene or studio???

What do you guys think? bad idea and risky in this area? If so, why do you think this is???

If the area could support more stores, there would be more stores.
Lousy current music scene.
Lack of studio work.
Internet sales.
Birthplace of craigslist.

You're better off throwing your money at opening a restaurant. At least you can eat some good food on your way to bankruptcy.

[dougk]

If you decide not open a store, go hit a bunch of the ones there and start harassing them to CARRY those brands.

Mine too while your at it ;)

[ksandvik]

The biggest clientele would be engineers and others with stock options that could spend money on high-end guitars. As for musicians, they can't afford such things in this current situation here in the Bay Area (i.e. few gigs.)

[Songman]

That's what I"m thinking too. I don't think it's necessarily gigging musicisns who buy highend gears..I"m sure they do. However there are some wealthy people here who likes gear, I think.

[ksandvik]

That's what I"m thinking too. I don't think it's necessarily gigging musicisns who buy highend gears..I"m sure they do. However there are some wealthy people here who likes gear, I think.

There are but I doubt you could get enough revenue each quarter to keep the store open. Few engineers are guitar players. If you really want to start a music company, go for the combined-low-end-guitar-and-training-combined store model. That might barely break even.

[OrangeAD30TC]

If you have been to other GCs outside of SF you will notice that ours has quite a bit more high end instruments in accessible places. Also our vintage room usually has a bunch of very nice and expensive pieces that seem to change every so often. Not sure if they are selling or what but, they are there. Lots of High end LP and Fenders get sold at our GC compared to say Santa clara which has a pretty worthless selection.

Software engineers are not the only people in who have money right now. The Bay area is headquarters for many non tech companies as well. Its an over simplification to say it wont work because engineers don't play guitar so guitar stores don't exist.

Also have you checked out rocker guitars. They don't carry any of the brands you mentioned but they do carry Budda, divided by 13, and a bunch of boutique and vintage stuff.

[ksandvik]

I just try to set the right expectations. There are stores in the south bay that sell all kinds of guitars, maybe not high-end, but I do suspect they work with tiny margins. GC in Santa Clara, btw, has a special room with high-end gear, maybe not Suhr but other brands.

GC/San Franscisco used to be a really good flagship store, had most brands/types of guitars GC sold USA-wide, but I heard they scaled back so I have not taken a trip there for a long time.

[OrangeAD30TC]

I went into the GC SC plantnum room i think they call it. It sucked. They had some PRS amps and like 10 guitars.

[rollyfoster]

orange, dude, that sig....

[small axe]

i have been to the bay area many times and i am from the east coast. try berkley so u can get the college kids.....sell cheap guitars to high end gear. i think its a good idea. but what do i know about business, besides being in it all my life...but the main thing is location, location, location

[seth3]

orange, dude, that sig....

Excellent post, Rollyfoster, you said it all.

:rotflmao

*Above intended for the purpose of humor.

['70 RS]

GC/San Franscisco used to be a really good flagship store, had most brands/types of guitars GC sold USA-wide, but I heard they scaled back so I have not taken a trip there for a long time.

Their move from Mission Street to Van Ness was the death knell.
Crap store now.

[scolfax]

I live in the Bay Area and could not find a store that carried G&L's. I would totally welcome another store. Only great one around here is Gelb in Redwood City.

[backeast]

Take in consideration of what ProGuitarShop.com did. They started in Tigard, Oregon, a suburb of Portland. They made it because of an awesome internet presence. I think thats crucial. If you have the skills to demo and sell online you can succeed anywhere.
Another example of this is Dave's and Wildwood. Both are stores I have yet to visit, but visit their website daily and have done business with.
Best of luck with your dream!

[Sweetfinger]

Would it be a good idea to start a boutique guitar store...
What do you guys think? bad idea and risky in this area? If so, why do you think this is???
Bad idea and risky ANYWHERE. People these days cannot be bothered to get in their car or on the train or on their horse,.. whatever, and go to their local shop. They look at all the latest stuff online, discuss it online, and buy it online. If you have a retail space with all the stuff there, the few who do come in, will paw all over your merchandise, go home and try to find it cheaper from an internet only dealer with no overhead who's willing to make 5% profit on a deal.
That's how it is with ALL musical gear these days and Boutique stuff is the worst because it ties up the most money per unit and many of the boutique toys have the lifespan of a gnat. About ten minutes after your nifty item from builder "X" finally arrives after the 6 week build time, everyone will be dumping it for the newer better product from builder "Y".
Also, the absolute ocean of boutique stuff out there means that you'll never be able to stock any reasonable cross section of product. You're just going to end up dumping it online just like everyone else, so why bother storing your inventory in a public place with $8,000 a month rent?

Look back into your crystal ball about 15 years ago. What pedal makers were considered "boutique"? You could probably list them on one hand and now those same makers are probably considered passe but to even stock a representation of those lines would probably cost you 4 grand. Today you could name twenty makers. seriously, just filling your selection of strings is going to cost you $20,000.

The ONLY reason to open a boutique guitar shop is that you:

A. Have a large sum of liquid cash just sitting around doing nothing. Like half a million bucks.

B. have some income source other than the music industry, (oil magnate, slum lord, trust fund baby, drug dealer, or similar)

C. Are desirous of the status that would come with "owning your own store"

Well, there ya go. Have fun stormin' the castle!

[tedm]

I hope you do it, we need more stores with quality stuff and staff. Only suggestion I have is to locate it properly, ideally on the mid to upper peninsula.

Or if you do go for SF, be near a BART. I wouldn't open in Marin or east bay, but that's just me. Do your market research.

[Guitardave]

Hmmm, I actually helped start up Good Stuff Guitar Shop in Martinez with one of my buddies but decided after a year of it that it wasn't really for me. Fortunately, my buddy loves the whole shop thing and is doing a great job of keeping the shop going.

First thing I'd say is be prepared that it's a RETAIL business - lots of long hours, weekends, evenings, etc.

If you go for it - I'd definitely recommend you travel around to all the different bay area shops and get an idea of how you want to approach your market. It may make sense to diversify beyond guitars and I'd definitely recommend lessons if you can find the appropriate space.

For me I really get enjoyment from playing, tweaking, trying new and different things vs. trying to make money selling the gear. I'm glad I tried it though - I don't regret it at all.

[Songman]

Hmmm, I actually helped start up Good Stuff Guitar Shop in Martinez with one of my buddies but decided after a year of it that it wasn't really for me. Fortunately, my buddy loves the whole shop thing and is doing a great job of keeping the shop going.

First thing I'd say is be prepared that it's a RETAIL business - lots of long hours, weekends, evenings, etc.

If you go for it - I'd definitely recommend you travel around to all the different bay area shops and get an idea of how you want to approach your market. It may make sense to diversify beyond guitars and I'd definitely recommend lessons if you can find the appropriate space.

For me I really get enjoyment from playing, tweaking, trying new and different things vs. trying to make money selling the gear. I'm glad I tried it though - I don't regret it at all.

So what stopped you guys from carrying boutique stuff such as Suhr, Grosh etc? Or did you guys carry them?

[ToneBrokerBill]

Having started two small businesses, I can tell you that there will always be plenty of people anxious to explain why they believe your idea will fail. It seems to be human nature. My advice is to weed out those posts here that are based on opinion only, rather than on direct experience. Then, do some of your own research on demographics in your area, and see if you could swing something like this financially. For example, could you afford to live a year with no income for yourself from the store?

Here is my input on a guitar shop specificaly (based on opinion alone, so feel free to ignore). In certain areas, I think it's a good time to start if you are creative in finding new ways to attract and retain customers, use the net extensively, and apply realistic expectations for what the job will require from you.

Kudos for having the guts to consider taking the calculated risk.

[Bossman415]

Got to agree with Sweetfinger, it is a cool concept but a bad idea. I have owned a ton of high quality stuff and most of it is purchased through the internet. Most people who visit shops are literally there to test drive stuff, not to buy. If you do decide to open up a shop I would recommend making sure you handle repairs and have lessons. There are plenty of guys I know who strictly just handle repairs and do fairly well. As far as opening up the shop on the mid peninsula to SF I would strongly advise against it. You would have to compete with GELB and Rocker Guitars who both carry a good inventory.

[OrangeAD30TC]

Got to agree with Sweetfinger, it is a cool concept but a bad idea. I have owned a ton of high quality stuff and most of it is purchased through the internet. Most people who visit shops are literally there to test drive stuff, not to buy. If you do decide to open up a shop I would recommend making sure you handle repairs and have lessons. There are plenty of guys I know who strictly just handle repairs and do fairly well. As far as opening up the shop on the mid peninsula to SF I would strongly advise against it. You would have to compete with GELB and Rocker Guitars who both carry a good inventory.

Your contradicting yourself. At first you say that it wont work because people don't buy in stored they buy online. Then you say you will have to compete with gelb and rocker. If competition is present that means the market exists or else who would the competition be serving?

[mapleneck72]

There are stores that carry those brands (see below) but there is not a one stop shop that is in the league of a Tone Merchants, True Tone Music, Ludlow Guitars in NYC (for pedals), Pro Guitar Shop. Bananas at Large in SR carries the broadest line of boutique pedals. I stopped by Real Guitars a week ago for the first time in years and I don't know how they made Premier Guitar's list of top guitar stores in the country.

Suhr - Nuts and Saddles in Berkeley
Anderson - Gelb in RWC
Grosh - Gryphon in Palo Alto
Melancon - Guitar Showcase in SJ sold these back in the day
Tyler - no dealer but I saw the fake one a while back they were selling at Rocker Guitars that they refused to sell back to JT

[Drowned Rabbit]

I live in San Francisco and Bogner is about as boutique as it gets amongst most of the players around here. For the most part anyways. Real Guitars is really overpriced and they usually just have a bunch of crap. Rocker is still pretty good, but they used to have a lot better selection than they do now. Apparently they just weren't selling enough of the really cool gear to keep most of it around.

Here's some news: SF Guitarworks is going to start making their own line of guitars.

[Enajera]

I live in SJ and I always have to drive to Rocker or Real Guitars in Frisco.

I never can find what I want and typically have to order it or search.

Right now I'm looking for an EVH 5150 III. I want to play one and Rocker is the only store in the entire Bay Area that has one. Look, I know, but I want to try the amp.

I've noticed that not too many people want to pay for good stuff up here. I think there is a market for pre CBS Fenders, but not much after that. Frankly, anything over $1,000 has a tough time selling.

Last rant, the GC - why doesn't anyone know anything.

[Lucidology]

Might be wiser to go a bit south ... Past San Jose down to the Santa Cruz area...
You've got a huge University there & musician's at every turn who are always having to drive north to find anything remotely boutique ...
Sylvain music is about as close as it comes... but that's mostly acoustic based ...

[AbstractLunatic]

Might be wiser to go a bit south ... Past San Jose down to the Santa Cruz area...
You've got a huge University there & musician's at every turn who are always having to drive north to find anything remotely boutique ...
Sylvain music is about as close as it comes... but that's mostly acoustic based ...

We both know the person at Sylvan that was "driving" the electric and boutique side of things lives in Denver now. ;)

[Lucidology]

We both know the person at Sylvan that was "driving" the electric and boutique side of things lives in Denver now. ;)

So true ... & he is missed ... Hell, I bought three Melancon's from you guys.
Still have two of 'em ... lol

[Dr. Jimmy]

If you have been to other GCs outside of SF you will notice that ours has quite a bit more high end instruments in accessible places. Also our vintage room usually has a bunch of very nice and expensive pieces that seem to change every so often. Not sure if they are selling or what but, they are there. Lots of High end LP and Fenders get sold at our GC compared to say Santa clara which has a pretty worthless selection.

Software engineers are not the only people in who have money right now. The Bay area is headquarters for many non tech companies as well. Its an over simplification to say it wont work because engineers don't play guitar so guitar stores don't exist.

Also have you checked out rocker guitars. They don't carry any of the brands you mentioned but they do carry Budda, divided by 13, and a bunch of boutique and vintage stuff.

Excellent post Orange, you said it all!

['70 RS]

I stopped by Real Guitars a week ago for the first time in years and I don't know how they made Premier Guitar's list of top guitar stores in the country.



I do.
I've spent more money, done more deals, made more trades, found more guitars & amps that I wanted at Real than I have at all other stores combined.

[getbent]

as part of your investigation.... head down to Campbell (or maybe Los Gatos???) and see Keith Holland and Val King... and talk to them about it...

I'd probably pick up the phone and call Stu at Fatsound and ask him about the business and what works for them... it has been my experience that the people who do well at stuff aren't afraid to talk about it because the things they tell you are completely valuable but most people just can't (or won't) do them....

I think it is cool that you are looking to build in a down economy and if you decide to move forward, make sure to announce it.. I'll come to the store and encourage my friends as well.

[Sweetfinger]

Your contradicting yourself. At first you say that it wont work because people don't buy in stored they buy online. Then you say you will have to compete with gelb and rocker. If competition is present that means the market exists or else who would the competition be serving?
Incorrect assumption there. As soon as you open a shop nearby another with a similar product, you ARE in competition. That does NOT necessarily mean that a market exists- at least locally. The other shop may be surviving by doing internet sales or may be squeaking by on savings, or might be the "vanity store" owned by someone who doesn't need it for income. ..And just because a "market" exists doesn't mean that it is strong enough to support another shop. Local markets are dwindling at an alarming rate. 2 shops in Phoenix disappeared last month. To qualify what another poster said, I've owned/managed guitar shops since 1998. It is a VERY different retail landscape now than ten years ago. A lot of music stores and guitar shops are essentially, "dead shops walking". They lumber along like zombies who just haven't realized that they should be in the ground.
You complain and wonder why your favorite(or not) shops don't carry a good assortment of boutique(or even standard fare) stuff?
The economy is in the crapper, and people are buying online instead of locally. Ask yourself, where did you get the last 5 music related things you bought, including strings, efx, guitars, amps, cables and recording gear?
And where DID you get them if you bought from a store? Was it a big box like Best Buy or GC, or an independently owned local shop?
If you didn't buy at a local shop, your complaints hold no weight AFAIAC.

[pete100ca]

Having started two small businesses, I can tell you that there will always be plenty of people anxious to explain why they believe your idea will fail. It seems to be human nature. My advice is to weed out those posts here that are based on opinion only, rather than on direct experience. Then, do some of your own research on demographics in your area, and see if you could swing something like this financially. For example, could you afford to live a year with no income for yourself from the store?

Here is my input on a guitar shop specificaly (based on opinion alone, so feel free to ignore). In certain areas, I think it's a good time to start if you are creative in finding new ways to attract and retain customers, use the net extensively, and apply realistic expectations for what the job will require from you.

Kudos for having the guts to consider taking the calculated risk.

:agreeWise words. I started my own business with two other people in 1997 in a highly competitive industry. Many people said we were crazy - including my own father. Flash forward - In 2010 we did $14 million in sales and have 62 employees.

Believe in yourself, work hard, be positive, provide exceptional customer service and value. Do all those things and I will see you there :aok

[dspellman]

You might set up shop in one of the Silicone Valley 'burbs (Mountain View?). Lots of folks with big salaries, lots of stock options and tons of spendable cash.

[hawkeyeinexile]

I live in the Bay Area and could not find a store that carried G&L's.

CB Perkins (http://www.cbperkins.com/contactus.html) carries G&L and has xlnt turnover

I would totally welcome another store. Only great one around here is Gelb in Redwood City.

gotta love Gelb. also Guitar Showcase (http://guitarshowcase.com/). also Tabernacle of Tone (http://kingamplification.com/images/Tonepop-up.pdf) ;) (Val & Keith, Los Gatos)

:cool:

[MichaelSaulnier]

In any retail business, there are products intended to "get people in the door" and others where "the profit is made".

In the highly competitive guitar sales world, the guitars themselves are often the "loss leader", get 'em in the door products.

The "real" money is made on accessories, parts, service, lessons, etc.

There's probably still decent margins in these things, but people are buying them from on-line retailers for the ease and wide selection.

What I'm really saying is, understand what business you're "really" in... and decide if that is the business you "want" to be in.

M

[hawkeyeinexile]

Would it be a good idea to start a boutique guitar store in Bay Area, California? I...

What do you guys think? bad idea and risky in this area? If so, why do you think this is???


music scene in South Bay has resurged in the last year or two (does not mean it's necessarily possible to make a living gigging). i've always thought there was a need for more boutiquey guits, amps, & fx, but you're looking at selling w/a 9%+ sales tax to locals & CA residents.

not a bad idea, but certainly risky. 'course, if you're independently wealthy or have backing and plan on being in it for the long haul, there's much less risk...

:cool:

['70 RS]

Having started two small businesses, I can tell you that there will always be plenty of people anxious to explain why they believe your idea will fail. It seems to be human nature. My advice is to weed out those posts here that are based on opinion only, rather than on direct experience.
Kudos for having the guts to consider taking the calculated risk.



Having watched many guitar shops open and close over the past few decades, in the area the OP is asking about, and knowing firsthand the struggles that many of the shops that are still open have faced, my advice wasn't offered based on uninformed nay-saying.

[ksandvik]

I think a 'guitar-centric' store could thrive but you need to think outside the box. Or skate where the puck will be later not just now. And so on.

Actually I would go for a store selling and teaching gear for hip-hop producers/rappers if I would ever do a music instrument store.

[Igneous]

I'm following this thread because I plan to do the same here possibly in MA/Boston/worcester area. There is a market and its all about sustaining a competitive advantage. This means, technology, other revenue streams etc. Its something Ive always wanted to do and if you don't bet big, then you don't win big. I love gear THAT MUCH! let the recon stage continue!!! More power to you brother. Here is what might be a helpful link:

http://www.edroman.com/general/business.htm

[Guitardave]

So what stopped you guys from carrying boutique stuff such as Suhr, Grosh etc? Or did you guys carry them?

Funds mostly....and it wasn't our particular market focus.

Your idea of a specific boutique shop is an interesting one and I would recommend exploring it thoroughly. At the end of the day a shop is a business so having a solid plan, adequate funding and proper execution are key. I would definitely talk with some other boutique shop owners if you can. Ask a lot of questions and listen to what their experience is. Assume that your business will have similar challenges and don't figure that you can avoid the issues they run into. Also, be sure to identify what top brands you are going to focus on and confirm ahead of time that you will be able to carry them.

FWIW - on a personal level I'd really think about the commitment that a retail shop represents. It can take over your life. Playing, gigging, vacations, family, etc. etc. frequently takes a back seat for a long time.

['70 RS]

Here is what might be a helpful link:

http://www.edroman.com/general/business.htm


I offer a complete consultation service for anyone interested in opening up their own music store. You can engage me to assist you in any one or all of the topics listed below. I can assist you in many levels.


uh


oh




................

He forgot point #58) Don't sell fakes as the real deal and get caught.

[scolfax]

CB Perkins (http://www.cbperkins.com/contactus.html) carries G&L and has xlnt turnover



gotta love Gelb. also Guitar Showcase (http://guitarshowcase.com/). also Tabernacle of Tone (http://kingamplification.com/images/Tonepop-up.pdf) ;) (Val & Keith, Los Gatos)

:cool:

Cool, thanks! I totally forgot about Guitar Showcase!

[BlackStrat_Fan]

A good friend of mine owns a place here in the Los Angeles (The Guitar Merchant.) The one thing that has kept his store going is revenue from lessons and a back room stage that he books small acts.

Something to think about when sales are slow it's nice to know there is a rotation of 5 teenagers paying $30 for a half hour lesson.

BTW, Guitar Merchant in Canoga Park is an authorized dealer of Fender, G&L, Breedlove and Orange amps. Please consider this if you live in the LA area and want to help the small independent guy.

[ksandvik]

Cool, thanks! I totally forgot about Guitar Showcase!

That's the place guitar players went to when electric guitars started to show up here in the Bay Area long time ago. Kind of our Manny's.

['70 RS]

That's the place guitar players went to when electric guitars started to show up here in the Bay Area long time ago. Kind of our Manny's.

The first time I played a Strat thru a Marshall? Guitar Showcase.
First real electric guitar I bought? Oly white Strat w/hardshell case for $419 at Gelb in 1979.

[small axe]

i have to repeat myself.....location, location, location!

[clint]

Due to the overhead costs and other risks, why not start up a small buisness in your basement (assuming that you have one) and deal primarily through internet sales/Gbase? Locals could set up appts and check out your wares after seeing your inventory online. For the small business retail dealer, the trend appears to be aboout moving away from brick and mortar stores but I do miss them.

[BrianK]

:agreeWise words. I started my own business with two other people in 1997 in a highly competitive industry. Many people said we were crazy - including my own father. Flash forward - In 2010 we did $14 million in sales and have 62 employees.

Believe in yourself, work hard, be positive, provide exceptional customer service and value. Do all those things and I will see you there :aok
Right on! Listen to this guy. Go for it. There is always a niche somewhere but you have to be smart and creative and beleive in yourself. NEVER take advice from someone who is probably not doing what they want to be doing in their life telling you it's a bad idea. ( probably most!!)Believe me people will come out of the woodwork and tell you what they think, negatively speaking of course.

[pcutt]

There have been some great comments given especially WRT how the internet has changed the landscape, and I agree that opening yet another shop that uses the age-old business model is probably a huge risk. How might you leverage the internet and create a brand new business model? Here are a couple of thoughts:

- Have a service to design and build custom designs using craftsmen/manufacturers, domestic or overseas. Use computer design software and allow the customer the ability to spec out, or do a detailed design, or something in between. Design at your facility (or their homes), send the design over the internet the mfgrs, and 2 weeks later the guitar shows up. Your value would be in having a relationship with the mfgrs to ensure a quality product.

- Use social networking to create a bond with customers, between customers, and for offering capabilities that other shops do not. Have design competitions, or show and tell days, for the custom built guitars.

- Have a relationship with The Tech Shop (http://techshop.ws/) for workshops, classes, etc. This way you don't have to have a lot of money tied up in expensive equipment. I can provide an introduction to the CEO if you want.

- Host seminars on exotic equipment that would appeal to the Silicon Valley techies, such as the AxeFX and Moog Guitar.

- Have video streaming of these events, with archives for later viewing.

- Have a soundproof room available for customers to rent for their own tone fests, and so they can turn it up to 11. Maybe have 24/7 access via a password keypad lock. (Take note of the 24 Hour Fitness business model.)

I'm sure there are many additional ideas can others can add, but the key to success seems to be realizing that the internet has dramatically changed the competitive landscape. Just look what's happening to Borders Books as we speak.

[karma1]

A couple years ago, a boutique guitar shop opened in San Rafael, which is about 10 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge in Marin County. It was called E Guitars, and they had a lot of really nice high end stuff, although specializing in used guitars. They were in a good location on the main drag right across the street from a well established music store - Banana's At Large, so there was a constant flow of musicians walking by. I don't know any of the inside details, but after a while they closed up shop. It was never very busy in there, and I guess they couldn't make a go of it. It's too bad, because they had some killer gear. But I'd be wary of opening a boutique guitar store anywhere in this economy, although the thought has occasionally crossed my mind.

[Drowned Rabbit]

Here are a couple of thoughts:

- Have a service to design and build custom designs using craftsmen/manufacturers, domestic or overseas. Use computer design software and allow the customer the ability to spec out, or do a detailed design, or something in between. Design at your facility (or their homes), send the design over the internet the mfgrs, and 2 weeks later the guitar shows up. Your value would be in having a relationship with the mfgrs to ensure a quality product.

- Use social networking to create a bond with customers, between customers, and for offering capabilities that other shops do not. Have design competitions, or show and tell days, for the custom built guitars.

- Have a relationship with The Tech Shop (http://techshop.ws/) for workshops, classes, etc. This way you don't have to have a lot of money tied up in expensive equipment. I can provide an introduction to the CEO if you want.

- Host seminars on exotic equipment that would appeal to the Silicon Valley techies, such as the AxeFX and Moog Guitar.

- Have video streaming of these events, with archives for later viewing.

- Have a soundproof room available for customers to rent for their own tone fests, and so they can turn it up to 11. Maybe have 24/7 access via a password keypad lock. (Take note of the 24 Hour Fitness business model.)

I'm sure there are many additional ideas can others can add, but the key to success seems to be realizing that the internet has dramatically changed the competitive landscape. Just look what's happening to Borders Books as we speak.


These are fantastic ideas! Except for the one I highlighted in red, which I don't think would work in San Francisco for a number of reasons. Mainly, the proclivities of many of the people here makes anything which is accessible 24 hours a day become pretty gnarly.

['70 RS]

It was called E Guitars, and they had a lot of really nice high end stuff, although specializing in used guitars. They were in a good location on the main drag right across the street from a well established music store - Banana's At Large, so there was a constant flow of musicians walking by.

Great selection of stuff, very friendly/knowledgeable staff, fair prices.
Even had the Strawberry Alarm Clock/Chinery Mosrites on the back wall.

[paranoid70]

Few engineers are guitar players.

I am an Engineer and a guitar player. But your assessment is largely correct, there isn't many of us.

[scolfax]

First real electric guitar I bought? Oly white Strat w/hardshell case for $419 at Gelb in 1979.

Gelb rules. I bought my first "real" guitar there - a new '91 Ibanez RG760. Still have it.

A couple years ago, a boutique guitar shop opened in San Rafael, which is about 10 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge in Marin County. It was called E Guitars, and they had a lot of really nice high end stuff, although specializing in used guitars. They were in a good location on the main drag right across the street from a well established music store - Banana's At Large, so there was a constant flow of musicians walking by. I don't know any of the inside details, but after a while they closed up shop. It was never very busy in there, and I guess they couldn't make a go of it. It's too bad, because they had some killer gear. But I'd be wary of opening a boutique guitar store anywhere in this economy, although the thought has occasionally crossed my mind.

Black Market Music in Walnut Creek was there forever, and eventually died too. They had a ton of used gear - good and bad. Same fate. I think the simple answer is that eBay killed the local used guitar market in the US.

[Jim S]

I'd road trip and visit you if you did ....in the summertime. I'll drop my g/f off in Sonoma.

[dougk]

There have been some great comments given especially WRT how the internet has changed the landscape, and I agree that opening yet another shop that uses the age-old business model is probably a huge risk. How might you leverage the internet and create a brand new business model? Here are a couple of thoughts:

- Have a service to design and build custom designs using craftsmen/manufacturers, domestic or overseas. Use computer design software and allow the customer the ability to spec out, or do a detailed design, or something in between. Design at your facility (or their homes), send the design over the internet the mfgrs, and 2 weeks later the guitar shows up. Your value would be in having a relationship with the mfgrs to ensure a quality product.

- Use social networking to create a bond with customers, between customers, and for offering capabilities that other shops do not. Have design competitions, or show and tell days, for the custom built guitars.

- Have a relationship with The Tech Shop (http://techshop.ws/) for workshops, classes, etc. This way you don't have to have a lot of money tied up in expensive equipment. I can provide an introduction to the CEO if you want.

- Host seminars on exotic equipment that would appeal to the Silicon Valley techies, such as the AxeFX and Moog Guitar.

- Have video streaming of these events, with archives for later viewing.

- Have a soundproof room available for customers to rent for their own tone fests, and so they can turn it up to 11. Maybe have 24/7 access via a password keypad lock. (Take note of the 24 Hour Fitness business model.)

I'm sure there are many additional ideas can others can add, but the key to success seems to be realizing that the internet has dramatically changed the competitive landscape. Just look what's happening to Borders Books as we speak.

Add to this: make half your day "by appointment only". Morning or afternoon doesn't matter.

You want to cater to a demographic buying 5k guitars, give them one and one time and they'll keep coming back to you. Buddy up with LOTS of the boutique builders. Keep a good selection on hand. Tell anyone willing to make an appointment for private time that if there are specific guitars they are looking for, let you know in ADVANCE.

If you want to stock boutique brands, you'll find most of the time if you think a sale is possible the builders will help you source whatever the specific requests are.

Get online and be strong there. Do something at your store that can't be achieved by an online only vendor. What that is, is up to you. Personally I'm big on the by appointment only aspect. I would love to be able to go in, play whatever I want and not be bothered by other players or sometimes even pushy sales people. Plus I'm a hack player and don't always enjoy noodling in the company of others.

Personally, I say do it. The money is there, its just finding out how to get your store to be where people WANT to spend their money. Remember, theres always going to be people saying "not in this economy" "the sky is falling, it'll never get better" ect ect. Look, it comes and goes. If you want to take a risk and you think you can make it work, do it. One upside to boutique is most of the builders hold their dealers to MSRP/MAP much stricter than the big guys. Also, find ways to get exclusive models or something unique from whoever you represent specifically for your store. Cyberspace can get crowded fast and this really helps (its something I do with all my dealers to keep them from having to always compete over the same sale).

[dougk]

I'd road trip and visit you if you did ....in the summertime. I'll drop my g/f off in Sonoma.

I'd drop off my guitar and then go to Sonoma. :p

['70 RS]

Black Market Music in Walnut Creek was there forever, and eventually died too. They had a ton of used gear - good and bad. Same fate. I think the simple answer is that eBay killed the local used guitar market in the US.

They had two locations in S.F. as well. First was above The Brainwash Cafe, then they grew and moved to a huge warehouse about two blocks away from where Rocker is now. Closed up and Chris opened shop in L.A. (now closed). He came back to S.F. a couple years back with a new shop...don't know if it's still around.

Rocker is on their third location at this point.

[zenitB]

That's the place guitar players went to when electric guitars started to show up here in the Bay Area long time ago. Kind of our Manny's.

Don't forget Leo's in Oakland and Don Wehr in North Beach!

[ksandvik]

I am an Engineer and a guitar player. But your assessment is largely correct, there isn't many of us.

Well, we are at least two now!

[OrangeAD30TC]

I live in San Francisco and Bogner is about as boutique as it gets amongst most of the players around here. For the most part anyways. Real Guitars is really overpriced and they usually just have a bunch of crap. Rocker is still pretty good, but they used to have a lot better selection than they do now. Apparently they just weren't selling enough of the really cool gear to keep most of it around.

Here's some news: SF Guitarworks is going to start making their own line of guitars.

Rocker has a builder in their shop as well.

[Csapo]

I live in SJ and I always have to drive to Rocker or Real Guitars in Frisco.

Where is this "Frisco" place you speak of?

Frisco, Texas?


:bonk

['70 RS]

Where is this "Frisco" place you speak of?

Frisco, Texas?


:bonk

:dunno

:facepalm

:rotflmao

[jgyn]

I do.
I've spent more money, done more deals, made more trades, found more guitars & amps that I wanted at Real than I have at all other stores combined.

+1.

[jgyn]

They had two locations in S.F. as well. First was above The Brainwash Cafe, then they grew and moved to a huge warehouse about two blocks away from where Rocker is now. Closed up and Chris opened shop in L.A. (now closed). He came back to S.F. a couple years back with a new shop...don't know if it's still around.

Rocker is on their third location at this point.

Black Market's gone.

['70 RS]

Black Market's gone.

I know.
I was talking about Chris's most recent shop up here.....forgot the name.

[stratlad]

Back to OP. Interesting question I've thought of (I'm a Bay Area guy). The hard part is finding enough buyers of boutique gear. There are many guitar players but IMO only people who are REALLY into tone or REALLY into gear seek out the boutique stuff and while I'd love to have a store like that available, I don't know if its viable. larger stores sell on volume and must sell Fender/ Gibson/ Marshall because every up and coming guitar player wants those. Only those who are pros or stick with it a long while (and have $) really can create a market for boutiques. Sadly I think it's a tough business model to do in a bricks and mortar business unless you get really low rent and can carry enough inventory to get a name so people know your store is THE ONLY place in the Bay Area for that Gear.

Some stores (Gelb in Redwood City come to mind) carry some more high-end stuff but admittedly there are very few. Lack of a music scene here make it tough compared to LA.

[treedroppings]

Would it be a good idea to start a boutique guitar store in Bay Area, California? I ask because Bay is very large with huge population. However reletive to North Carolina, Texas, or even South California, out guitar store selection is very poor.

The other thread where a person is asking for guitar stores to visit, I could not think of single dealer who carried Grosh, Suhr, Tyler, Melancon, etc. I don't know why this is...perhaps demographic of people living here or not having lots of music scene or studio???

What do you guys think? bad idea and risky in this area? If so, why do you think this is???
open up a store in berryessa (north east san Jose) you'd be the only guitar store in the neighborhood ;)

[sutoman]

If you do take the risk, find a way to staff the store with something other than typical G.C. poser employees or old burnt out unfriendly hippies. You will have a huge leg up on most of the competition in the area. (Good luck...you'll need it).

[treedroppings]

I went into the GC SC plantnum room i think they call it. It sucked. They had some PRS amps and like 10 guitars.

there's a morgan hill store that has oranges marshalls, but their guitar selection sucks

[treedroppings]

don't forget starvingmusician.com in santa clara they combine a store with the internet, so does musicgoround.com near almaden & cherry they actually sell franchises that sell hs band equipment and teachers along with nice used equipment

[dougk]

Back to OP. Interesting question I've thought of (I'm a Bay Area guy). The hard part is finding enough buyers of boutique gear. There are many guitar players but IMO only people who are REALLY into tone or REALLY into gear seek out the boutique stuff and while I'd love to have a store like that available, I don't know if its viable. larger stores sell on volume and must sell Fender/ Gibson/ Marshall because every up and coming guitar player wants those. Only those who are pros or stick with it a long while (and have $) really can create a market for boutiques. Sadly I think it's a tough business model to do in a bricks and mortar business unless you get really low rent and can carry enough inventory to get a name so people know your store is THE ONLY place in the Bay Area for that Gear.

Some stores (Gelb in Redwood City come to mind) carry some more high-end stuff but admittedly there are very few. Lack of a music scene here make it tough compared to LA.

The more I think about this, the less I think it matters. Look at some of the great online boutique vendors that we all buy from: wildwood, fatsound, dag, theamphouse ect... NONE of these are near major music scenes.

I think thats the key though, great online presence AND doing something with your brick and motar location that hasn't been done before. Oh and finding LOW rent :rotflmao

[AbstractLunatic]

The more I think about this, the less I think it matters. Look at some of the great online boutique vendors that we all buy from: wildwood, fatsound, dag, theamphouse ect... NONE of these are near major music scenes.

I think thats the key though, great online presence AND doing something with your brick and motar location that hasn't been done before. Oh and finding LOW rent :rotflmao

Wildwood has a tiny main room with one stool. Seriously lacking on the brick and morter side of things there. But, and this is a big but, the owner is extremely attentive and if you ask, he will go next door to the warehouse, "where we stock 1400+ guitars," as he put it, and grab you a selection of guitars for you to try in a practice room. FWIW, they have high prices on accessories.

[Mayfield]

IF you are still thinking of doing this....I recommend a brick and mortar in Millbrae. With a strong internet presence as was stated before. Why there? A few reasons: as another poster mentiond before, proximity to transit would help. The Millbrae Bart station is a hub for a lot of commuters. So it brings them in and out of that suburb of SF daily. Then you have various events throughout the year..namely the Millbrae Art and Wine festival. Over 100K people in one weekend walk the streets of that small town. Help sponser some of the music as part of that weekend. Brings in all types so each year you can expand whom knows you are there. Now rent could be the road block as rent has continued to climb as the town has built itself up (in both bad and good ways, in my opinion) When I grew up there, it was a middle class town. Now those houses that went for 170K are going for 1.2 Mil. But there is money in that town itself and it is a middle point between SF and the mid to southern (not as south as San Jose per se) part of the peninsula.

They key is to balance high end with entry level. Carry enough entry level and get in good with the grammar schools of which there are 4 if I remember, middle school, and two high schools. Help them with their supply needs such as sheet music, rentals, repairs etc. Put in a good rent to own program as the towns next door such as San Bruno (North) or Burlingame (South) also have a bunch of schools that could partake.

Then network like crazy. Find ways to have special sessions with the local legends...Neil Young, Metallica, Hagar, Journey, Santana, ...as an example for Santana...if you can become a PRS dealer, work with them on a launch that could include an appearance from Santana himself as he supports locals quite a bit. Get in good with the music Directors at the high schools, especially with some of the private schools like Serra in San Mateo. Jay Jordan there is well connected in the local music arena.

I know I mentioned a lot......but I was actually thinking of doing all of this about 12 years ago before I went a different direction with my career. So I figured I should share my thoughts just in case they are of any value.

Sorry for the long response...

[Adieu]

Try SANTA CRUZ.

This place is seriously weird. For all the artistic people and rich kid poseurs running around, there seems to be a total lack of good shops, PLUS the local craigslist is hella weird: everyone here is selling at like 3x the prices of LA and SF. No good deal sightings whatsoever. Half the crap is MiC and MiK, several years old, beat up, and priced @ or *over* MSRP.

[picknpluck]

I live in the Bay Area and could not find a store that carried G&L's. I would totally welcome another store. Only great one around here is Gelb in Redwood City.

Danville Music carries G&L's. It's in the same shopping center as the Danville Trader Joe's. Small shop.

[kenneth]

Critical to better chance of success for your business, is California passing legislation to require online vendors like amazon (and I presume musicians friend, sweetwater, etc) to charge CA sales tax to customers who live in CA.

Otherwise, you are dealing with a 10% markup on everything you sell. On top of the other associated costs with operating a business in California. It is not a cheap place to start a business.

[scolfax]

^^^ Exactly. If I buy an expensive guitar from Guitar Center I get it right away but have to pay, say, $100 extra for it. If I get it from Musicians Friend it I have to wait a week and save $100.

Kinda sucks, because I want to help California dig it's way out of it's budget problems, but at the same time I don't want to be ripped off.

[digiTED]

^^^ Exactly. If I buy an expensive guitar from Guitar Center I get it right away but have to pay, say, $100 extra for it. If I get it from Musicians Friend it I have to wait a week and save $100.

Kinda sucks, because I want to help California dig it's way out of it's budget problems, but at the same time I don't want to be ripped off.

I understand you desire to save the dough, but I disagree that the $100 difference is a rip-off. You're paying for the convenience of being able to play and examine the instrument first-hand and to go home with it immediately.

Plus, my local GC in San Francisco will match online pricing on new stuff. They look it up right there.

The brick-n-mortar vs. online debate is not just about absolute lowest price IMO.

[Sunburst57]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid70 http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=10077437#post10077437)
I am an Engineer and a guitar player. But your assessment is largely correct, there isn't many of us.


Well, we are at least two now!

There's a couple of us around ;-)

- sunburst57

[kenneth]

I understand you desire to save the dough, but I disagree that the $100 difference is a rip-off. You're paying for the convenience of being able to play and examine the instrument first-hand and to go home with it immediately.

Plus, my local GC in San Francisco will match online pricing on new stuff. They look it up right there.

The brick-n-mortar vs. online debate is not just about absolute lowest price IMO.

There is no ripoff to anyone here, technically, because we all settle this when we file our California state taxes, right? You know, that one section about online out of state purchases...so no more discussion about this needed.

From my view it is not about the absolute lowest price on one or two things. Is is about selling lots of things with a lower (initially tax-free) price. Compared to a few guitars with a 10% mark up, that the customer pays tax initially.

How many guitars does a shop sell, say compared to strings, picks, tuners, pedals, and other "consumables"? I would think it would be hard to make a full time business out of selling boteek guitars only, in a brick and mortar storefront shop.