CNC vs. all handmade

[tms13pin]

So, I'm curious: who uses a CNC and who hand-builds the whole
way through. And if a CNC is used, for how much of the build
is it used (just body? neck? carves?).

I'm not interested in a discussion over which is better, I have
no problem with machines. I'm just curious about many of the
"boutique" builders and what they do. I'd also think it'd be
interesting if some of the builders would chime in and say why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better,
worse, the same, etc. since they've done so. I'm more
interested in the builders viewpoint here, not the buyers, as
I don't want to start an opinion war. I'm sure output is higher
with the CNC. How does it impact customization, etc. for you?
Does that really matter (may not be part of your business plan)?
How do you keep the quality up vs. Fender and Gibson....
major automation but very big names.

For instance, Driskill does everything by hand. PRS uses CNCs
for things (how much, I'm not sure), Brian Moore CNC's the
bodies (at least), blah blah. I don't really know about
Suhr, Anderson, McInturff, Lentz, etc. Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders
(if you accept them) done completely by hand?

Lots of questions. Just trying to understand the small market
luthier industry a bit more. It's really been interesting since I
joined TGP to just lurk and see what players gush over, etc., and
I've learned about a lot of guitar (and amp) builders that I never
knew existed.

Thanks in advance for your comments and perspectives on this.

--Tom

[niersbach]

Hey Tom

ummm I think you were misinformed about Driskill as he does in fact use CNC machines. Off the top of my head, McNaughts are the only ones I know of that are strictly done all by hand, no cnc work anywhere on the guitar.

I, also like you, could care less if it was made by hand or by machine as I think it has very little to do with the quality of the instrument in question, if anything the CNC'd machine would be a better build as its much more precise. I think it has a lot more to do with the builder in question and his attention to detail than anything else. More his love for building instruments is what adds the mojo to the 6 string monsters.

[Ron Thorn]

I'm game.

First off, there is no shop, large or small, that is entirely CNC. It does not exist. I think most individuals would be surprised by what a guitar component looks like when it comes off a CNC. It is no where near complete, there is still plenty of hand sanding, fitting, etc.

Here's a break down of what I do with the CNC and "by hand".

CNC:
Fretboards - you asked "why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better". The fretboard is so brutally important that it is ideal for CNC accuracy. I perimeter, slot, radius, and rout for inlays all in one set-up on the CNC. Than insures spot-on fret slot placement (VERY important to the quality of the guitar), consistent radii including compound radiusing, and inlays that are very tight and free of sloppy filler/gaps.
Total time on the CNC: 20 minutes

Necks - Once the blank has been bandsawn ("by hand") to an oversized shape the CNC will machine the neck carve, perimeter the neck and heel, shape the headstock, drill for tuners, rout for truss rod and rout for logo & purfling. This is done through 6 different set-ups.
Total time on the CNC: 1 hour, 45 minutes.

Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours

Inlays - Production inlays, such as my Firesuns and "T" logo, are cut on the CNC for a perfect fit into the routes on the fretboard and headstock. I also "rip" my purfling strips on the CNC too.
Total time for one guitar's worth: 15 minutes

Components - I machine my own 1-pc. brass tremolos, pickup covers and rings, knobs, back plates, truss rod covers, and jack plates.
Total time worth: Approx: 10 hours.
Granted, all of these parts are "custom" for my guitars exclusively. I could purchase all of these parts from guitar supply shops but prefer to make my own.

None of the above times include any programming, set-up or material preparation...all of which are done "by hand".

_____________________

"By hand"
This term, I assume, includes feeding or pushing the component through a power tool such as a planer, jointer, drum sander, bandsaw etc.

Fretboards:
Pre CNC: The wood is bandsawn to an oversize thickness and feed through a drum sander to flatten.

Post CNC - The fretboard needs to:
Have the side dots drilled and glued in.
Inlays and purfling glued in.
Glue the board to the neck blank.
Level and true the board.
Fret and fretdress.
Total time "by hand": 13 hours for the above operations. My fret preparation (cutting to length, nipping the tang, grinding the tang), fret installation and dress is a total of 6 hours alone...no CNC for any of those operations.

Necks:
Pre CNC:
The wood is milled and rough cut to shape, using tracing templates, on a table saw and bandsaw before it gets to the CNC.
Post CNC:
Install the truss rod and filler strip,
blend the neck into the fretboard,
inlay logo and purfling,
final shape the neck carve to spec using rasps, spindle sanders and lots of elbow grease sanding then sanding some more,
gluing the neck into the body.
Total time "by hand": 8-10 hours easily.

Body:
Pre CNC:
Split top, joint edges, bookmatch glue together, sand to thickness.
Mill/sand body to thickness.
Locate and glue top to body spread then sand and drill locating hole for the CNC.
Post CNC:
Inlay purfling.
Drill for controls, side jack, wiring channels.
Radius back edge on router table.
SAND from 150 grit to 320/400
Total time "by hand": 10-15 hours depending on the wood species.

Paint:
Prep, mask off, stain, seal, color, top coat, lots of sanding in between, lots of sanding after, buffing...the list goes on. No CNC for these ops.
Total time "by hand": 28 hours if all goes right the first time...it never does.

Assembly:
Installation of components (tuners, pickups, bridge, etc), wiring, cutting the nut, set up.
Total time "by hand": 6-8 hours

The above is only visually productive acts, not including ordering wood and components, e-mails, shipping, and just plain running the business.

_______

So, if we deduct the custom components and use off the shelf bridges, pickup rings, etc. The average total time is:
CNC: 5 hours, 20 minutes.
"By hand": 69 hours, 30 minutes.

I consider my shop to be fairly state of the art, I have a large HAAS CNC for the woodwork, and 2 smaller CNCs for the pearl inlay work. The only additional automated CNC-type machinery would be a Plek and a robotic buffer. I could see that only reducing the "by hand" total by a couple/few hours at most.

Not mentioned would be a custom one-off inlay that I, or my father, would do "by hand" with a jeweler's saw and a mini router. The time spent on that could be from 45 minutes to 100s of hours depending on the design.


However small in comparison those 5 hours, 20 minutes seem...they are VERY important to the outcome of the guitar. Accuracy and consistancy are unmatched. There are features, such as my double offset purfling, that just can't physically be done by hand. Fretslots accurate to within .0005" of an inch...heck, the wood will expand or contract more than that by the time I turn the lights off in the shop at the end of the day...but it's good to know they are as accurate as can be.
Inlays that are gap free and clean are important to me. I'm not a fan of filler and I don't want that to be a part of my product. Even with hand cut and routed inlays, I feel we are one of the best at making them tight and clean.

Can I build a guitar with out a CNC, sure.
WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.
There you have one take on it from a CNC builder.

Ron Thorn
www.thornguitars.com

"Powered by HAAS...and loving it :) "

[Two-Octave]

There you go.

Ron himself posted here.Bitchin'. That cat makes great guitars.:dude

[niersbach]

WOW!!! Ron thanks a bunch for breaking down the CNC - Hand process for us. THat is the first time I have ever seen it all spelled out as to exactly what is done by the CNC vice hand. I just cant imagine trying to build all the jigs and what not to do it all by hand with routers and such and how on earth it could be accurate.

[eric102673]

Holy crap!

First of all, that's a hell of a post Ron. It puts the whole argument into perspective. Having toured through Fender, including the Custom Shop and the regular shop floor, as well as a few tours through PRS, you learn what Ron just said works on a bigger scale. The CNCs run non-stop in those places, but they don't have very many. What really speeds those places along is the literally dozens and dozens of other workers doing all the hand work as mentioned above, just assembly line style. One guy does one grit sanding all day. One guy does radius sanding for the fretboard all day, etc. That's how they get so many guitars out. The CNC just makes the parts fit better and with less waste and trial fittings.

The big difference in operations of the small vs. big builder, is the small guy starts with talking to the customer about what he wants and goes from wood selection to final polish of the instrument before it goes in the case, where the big guys end up with each person being really good at one given task but it never has the benefits from the one one one approach. You also end up with looser tolerances overall and customization is minimal to none.

Second of all, take that hourly estimate Ron gives and divide it into the base price of one of Ron's Artisan Master guitars (the most expensive). The dude's making less than $50 an hour, and that doesn't include any material costs or company overhead at all. I figure if you take those into account, the guy's lucky if he's making $20. That's nuts.
It's also why I think Ron's guitars are a steal, but it really makes you appreciate any small builder. None of these small guys are getting rich building guitars, no matter how they do it. They do it because they love it.

I find it inspiring.

-e.

[tms13pin]

Ron--

Thanks a heap for the info. This is exactly the kind of info I
was interested in hearing about from a builder. These are
things many of us do not think about while waiting for our
axes to be built, all of the steps and stages of the process,
what gets done where, etc., and especially, adding all of this
to the fact that there are other's axes in the queue as well!

BTW, you make gorgeous guitars, I've seen some beauties
on this forum!

Thanks again.

--Tom

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Ron Thorn
Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours

Ron, not doubting you, just curious. On my last tour of the PRS factory, I saw their CNC carve a body from a block of wood. It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours. That carver moved so fast, with chips and sawdust flying out all over the place, it was amazing, really. We could see the whole process because the panels around the body were either glass or some sort of plexiglass.

Is the difference in time between PRS's body carving and yours a function of PRS simply have millions more dollars to spend on the latest robotics or are other factors involved?

[Gadowguitars]

We just purchased our first CNC machine....also a HAAS.....We have been using an early seventies Rockwell Pin router.

The reasons for us to purchase a CNC:

-Accuracy...on the pin router we use plexi glass templates which have bit of wear, plus they just aren't perfect....we want everything to line up and fit perfect.
-Waste...currently we are building 6 guitars a week...when you are building the necks and body completely by hand like we are you lose one every 2 weeks do to some misfortune.
-I want my employees to focus on the details...fretwork,sanding, finishing, fretboard radiusing, set up.

Right now we are just using the CNC machine to cut all of the cavities..( neck pockets, pickup cavaties, control cavaties)....we are also cutting the bodies out...but they go back on the pin router for the carves....We are also cutting the neck profile, truss rod channel, and rough cutting the back carve also....but then we have to finish the neck with our good ole spoke shavers and rasps.

Currently we have a back log of about 125 guitars....so we felt that purchasing a CNC will help us keep a grip on quality control as we continue to grow.

[John C]

Personally, I've never been under the impression that a CNC was a bad thing; it is just a tool to do some early or mid-level work. I think maybe there is the perception that guitars pop out of these things ready for final assembly and painting.

I'm sure the builders on Tom's original list who use CNCs do so much like Ron's excellent breakdown of hand vs CNC work - Anderson, Suhr, and Grosh all use CNCs in this manner but rely on their artisans for the hand finishing work. It's getting easier to say who doesn't use CNC than who does. I'm not sure about Lentz, but Terry McInturff was still using a duplicarver last I heard and hadn't moved to CNC.

Of course G&L just very publically announce they bought CNC routers, and I believe I saw somewhere that James Tyler just got his first CNC this year as well.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by tms13pin
Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders (if you accept them) done completely by hand?
--Tom

Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but we use a CNC as much as we possibly can. We don't own one (yet), but we have access to two of them and I have a feeling that we'll own one of our own before too much longer.

I don't think of us as a custom shop at all and it's certainly not what we set out to be. We do take some custom orders, but my preference is for us to build guitars to our specs and either sell them either once they're well underway or even better, after they're complete.

[AJ Love]

Of the boutique bass makers, the only (major) ones I know about that are completely hand-made are Elrick and Eshenbaugh...

As a guitar player of extremely picky tastes, it doesn't matter to me if a neck is farmed out to another solar system, as long as it plays flawlessly

I was thinking the other day, a few of the guitar makers that we'll all be flipping out about 15 years from now will be built by people we've not yet heard of, or who have just begun being apprentices somewhere today

we're in the golden age of guitar making...

I apologize if I got a little off-topic there

[sanhozay]

Originally posted by AJ Love
we're in the golden age of guitar making...

Again.

[george4908]

Ron Thorn wrote:
>>Can I build a guitar without a CNC, sure. WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.<<

That, right there, answers the CNC question for me about as definitively as possible.

Eric wrote:
>>I figure if you take those into account, the guy's lucky if he's making $20.

Hey, don't remind him!

Jon wrote:
>>It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours.

Jon, I was just on a tour and asked that very question. "About 20 minutes" was the answer for the bodies. The necks take longer because there are multiple setups and passes.

The PRS CNC machines automatically exchange router heads on the fly, so they are able to do an extraordinary amount of work in one pass. I don't know if the CNC's at other shops have that capability. If not, it would slow things down quite a bit, I'd imagine.

[Ron Thorn]

Originally posted by Jon Silberman
It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours.

Jon,
Under a few minutes is probably pushing it. I know PRS' spindle speen is 10K rpm, mine is a little less so my feed rate is slightly lower. I have a few more operations to do such as top and side purfling. There is probably three main reasons I'm slower:
1 - Every body is different. It's not a case of load the body and walk away with mine. I'm currently up to 29 rear cavities, so I load the appropriate one and once it's finished I load the next program. Pickup combos, different body thicknesses, etc.

2 - I don't push the machine very hard. It takes 45 minutes to do the carve top. I could probably push it to 30 minutes, but risk blowing out some maple...not worth it. I haven't had to run a body through the bandsaw before it hits the dumpster yet, knock on wood.
Master Builder Red Dave from the Custom Shop always busts my chops when he sees me running a body. I'll take 4 passes around the perimeter and a final clean-up pass...at Fender: 1 pass, done.

3 - I'm still chicken-sh*t. When you find just the right top for the customer, that he selected, the last thing you want to do is rout for a humbucker where a P-90 should be. I'm standing in front of the CNC the whole time it's running making sure everything is "cool". My heart still races a bit when a body is running...I'm not afraid to admit it. 20hp can do a lot of damage to wood ;) .

PRS needs to pump out as many as possible per day. They've probably refined their programs to optimize every second of run time, they need to. I'll take it a little slower just to be safe.

Ron

[Leonc]

I'm here to tell you brothers and sisters that all those evil computerized, whizzing and whirring machines are the Devil's tools!! Throw a bunch of wood, store-bought plastic, screws and paint in one end and out pops a completed, machine-made guitar on the other end!!! What kind of evil-black witchery could concieve of such a foul and inhuman plot ? It's Satan's work I tell ye! http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/devil.gif

No, give me a hand-made guitar! You'll sleep much better knowing that a trained luthier used his olden slide rule and fingernails to carve the neck and slot the fretboard! And that our luthier hauled only the purest sand in a wheelbarrow up from the shores of Gichegoomee for the hand-made sandpaper that was employed. And that he himself slaughtered the horses whose hoofs were used to make the glue and that he forged and milled all the screws himself to exacting detail and that he used his very own, hand-made chemical plant to produce the plastic and the injection molds used to create the knobs, pickup rings and control cavity covers. This kind of quality cannot be matched by an eeevyul machine, conceived in the mind of Satan's goat-boy, Bill Gates!

:angel

[tms13pin]

Originally posted by Jim Soloway
Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but we use a CNC as much as we possibly can. We don't own one (yet), but we have access to two of them and I have a feeling that we'll own one of our own before too much longer.



Not a disappointment at all. As I stated in my original post,
I'm not against CNCs (or any machines that help get quality
work done more efficiently). I was just curious about the
extent to which they're used by various folks in the process.
You make beautiful guitars. I'd love to have a Swan made for
me someday (as soon as I can scrape up the bucks!).

--Tom

[Diablo]

I don't think I would ever want to do this without a CNC. Not for time savings at all but for its accuracy and possibilities that it provides. I have a HUGE Haas. My upper horn was ½” longer so I had to go with a really big one. $109K just for the basic tool. It took five years to pay for. It sits a lot of the time since I do so much handwork. I named it Slacker for this reason. When it is doing something though, there is nothing else like it. Nothing comes off of it ready to go without a lot of sanding or, in the case of metal, buffing and plating. Here’s kind of what I do with each thing.

Fretboards- cut locating holes on the bottom, vacuum it to the next fixture, cut perimeter and arch with a ¾” Ball endmill. Time: 40 minutes.

Fretslots- .020” endmill cuts fretslots. Tiny little thing which breaks easily if pushed too hard. Time: about 38 minutes.

Inlay- Totally depends on inlays. Almost all of them are custom in some way. Time: anywhere from a few minutes with simple dots to days with more elaborate inlays. One took about 12 hours just to cut the pearl and untold hours to program. The wolf guitars took an unbelievable amount of time to program and cut. I couldn’t even estimate how long they took. We’ll just say about 4 hours for a mid range difficult inlay which is all ready programmed and only has to be cut and inlaid.

Necks- rough cut to approximate size and then put on Haas. It takes 3 fixtures and a ton of steps with all kinds of tools to cut necks. Total time: about 1:30 hours I guess.

Bodies- three fixtures and some off an on back into the machine after gluing stuff . Time: about 3:30 hours total machining time.

Metal parts- I make my own pickup rings, stop tails, and trems. This is like getting a sex change to switch from wood to metal. Every little spec of wood and dust has to be cleaned out and the machine wiped down. Then coolant has to go in it and be all hooked up and the air disconnected. I made vise jaws for everything. There are about 16 or so sets of vise jaws to cut different metal parts. Big hassle! Each one has to be put in and then located with dial indicators. Trems- time about 4 hours probably. I don’t even know on the other stuff but it’s not quick.

Components- knobs and back plates- probably about 20 minutes machining time.

Hand work:

Fretboards- tons of sanding and stuff after tweezers put the inlays in. Lots of sanding and buffing of the fretboards. Before going into the Haas, they are run through a widebelt sander to roughly size them. Then the inlays go in. The frets are stainless steel and both epoxied and pressed into the fretboard. They are then clamped up in aluminum press plates with the radius machined into the plate. This is clamped up and let to cure for about 10 hours. Then the fretboard is glued onto the neck using epoxy. Again the plates clamp this on and it cures. No moisture is ever introduced to the neck since epoxy is used. That all takes about 4-6 hours of actual work and lots of curing time.

The neck is then sanded to shape as it is cut way oversized by the CNC. I make my own carbon fiber and it has to be put in. Then the side dots are drilled and installed and the tuner holes are drilled with a drill jig. Then the neck goes back into the CNC for the tongue angle. Lots of handwork on the necks! Total hand time on necks: 10-15 hours including the making of carbon fiber and cutting it. Probably way more time if I consider that.
Curing the UV finish: This only takes about 10 minutes total in the CNC UV booth.

Body:
Lots of sanding and looking at it. Taking pictures, photoshoping it to find stuff, etc. Resawing it and stickering it in front of fans to get it good and dry. Running it through the sander and gluing it onto the CNC’d parts. Vacuum bagging it to dry, etc.
When it comes off of the CNC, it has tearout and is pretty rough. Hours of sanding and perfecting the parts. Then fitting the neck. Total body time: 10-20 hours at least. That’s probably extremely conservative.

Components: hours of buffing and cleaning to get it ready to plate. I look like a chimney sweep when I’m done. All black gunk on your clothes and face. Carbon fiber and wood for back plates is incredibly time consuming. I hate that part. Probably about 15+ hours on metal. It is actually way more but I can’t even estimate it.

Finish: OMG! Don’t even know as they are all different in their challenges. Sanding, blisters on every finger, dying, sealing, spraying, UV oven, sand more, spray more, bla, bla. 30 hours easily total. The UV finish is so hard it takes 5+ hours of sanding and buffing alone. Then you go through somewhere. Do it again. I am now using Chromaclear for the top coat as it buffs much easier and looks fantastic. Still, it is very finicky on temperature and humidity whereas the UV polyester doesn’t care about any thing other than how hard it can make itself to buff.

Carbon Fiber- At least 4 hours of actual hands on work to saturate the fibers with epoxy. This is done twice to ensure saturation. Then it’s vacuum bagged for 10 hours each time. It sits for a few days on the form that makes it. Then you have to cover up with as much protective clothing as possible to keep the dreaded carbon fiber dust off of you and cut it with a grinder blade in the table saw. It is cut into strips that will go into the neck. Lots of carbon fiber in the necks all strategically placed. These are epoxied into the necks. Total time for carbon fiber. ???????? Lots of hideous time. Say 10 hours average.

That’s just some of the work. There are many more hours of total hand work doing the frets and setting it all up. CNC just makes deadly accurate parts and makes things possible that I couldn’t do other wise. It opens the doors to a lot of stuff that you just couldn’t do any other way. It definitely isn’t a cookie cutter thing like some people want you to believe. It makes things more time consuming in a lot of cases just because you know that you could do something with it so you do. Hope this helps.

[Leonc]

We can now see that they don't call those Driskills Diablos without good cause! Repent I tell you! Repent!!!

[Ron Thorn]

From their live LP "Satan's in my HAAS"

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Ron Thorn
Jon,
Under a few minutes is probably pushing it. I know PRS' spindle speen is 10K rpm, mine is a little less so my feed rate is slightly lower. I have a few more operations to do such as top and side purfling. There is probably three main reasons I'm slower:
1 - Every body is different. It's not a case of load the body and walk away with mine. I'm currently up to 29 rear cavities, so I load the appropriate one and once it's finished I load the next program. Pickup combos, different body thicknesses, etc.

2 - I don't push the machine very hard. It takes 45 minutes to do the carve top. I could probably push it to 30 minutes, but risk blowing out some maple...not worth it. I haven't had to run a body through the bandsaw before it hits the dumpster yet, knock on wood.
Master Builder Red Dave from the Custom Shop always busts my chops when he sees me running a body. I'll take 4 passes around the perimeter and a final clean-up pass...at Fender: 1 pass, done.

3 - I'm still chicken-sh*t. When you find just the right top for the customer, that he selected, the last thing you want to do is rout for a humbucker where a P-90 should be. I'm standing in front of the CNC the whole time it's running making sure everything is "cool". My heart still races a bit when a body is running...I'm not afraid to admit it. 20hp can do a lot of damage to wood ;) .

PRS needs to pump out as many as possible per day. They've probably refined their programs to optimize every second of run time, they need to. I'll take it a little slower just to be safe.

Ron

Thanks, Ron.

Suffice it to say, whatever it is you're doing - just keep doing it. :)

[hansoloist]

After taking notice of how many people neglect to wash their hands upon exiting the restroom, I'll take a CNC guitar every time. Thanks, folks, I'm here all week!!!

peace
-jeff

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by Leonc
I'm here to tell you brothers and sisters that all those evil computerized, whizzing and whirring machines are the Devil's tools!! Throw a bunch of wood, store-bought plastic, screws and paint in one end and out pops a completed, machine-made guitar on the other end!!! What kind of evil-black witchery could concieve of such a foul and inhuman plot ? It's Satan's work I tell ye! [IMG]

Then again, there's really no reason that someone couldn't invent such a machine (or set of machines). And it might even make some nice guitars. It just takes robots and code, my friends.

An advanced CNC on one end of the line and a PLEK on the other. In the middle put some of those painting robots that all of the car manufacturers use; some sanding and buffing robots. This actually sounds pretty easy. Get Paul Allen on the phone! He plays guitar, right?

[DamianP]

This should perhaps be a separate thread but I`m intrigued as to the economics of guitar building and the purchase of cnc machines.
Addmitedly I`m no buisiness expert but I `m having difficulty working out how a small one or two man shop could fund such a machine to be used solely for guitar related use from the same.

I realise that this relates to things such as individuals personal circumstances and have no desire to pry, but I can`t make the sums add up for overhead/ price as it relates to my corner of the world.

My knowledge of US geography is limited. Do most small guitar builders operate in areas with low overhead costs?

[Leonc]

When you try to do the math, make sure that you've included these two factors in your formula--they play a pretty important role, from what I can tell:

- Love

- Insanity

;)

[eric102673]

Ain't that the ever loving truth! :D

Go guys go!!!

-e.

[aleclee]

The best description I've heard:There are two types of electric guitar builders: Those who use CNCs
Those who wish they had a CNCHeck, even G&L has changed their tune and started using 'em.

[dirk nixon]

Originally posted by eric102673
None of these small guys are getting rich building guitars, no matter how they do it. They do it because they love it.

I find it inspiring.

-e.

+1

These guys are my hero's!

[Gadowguitars]

we'll consider this..... 2 employees at $70000 for the pair.....10 sick days a piece..plus 1 week vacation a piece. CNC $70000...works 7 days a week 365 days a year...and rarely makes a mistake.....and doesn't complain:D

[big mike]

And Ron's in California. Low overhead??

BWWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Try to rent an apartment here for less than 1500 a month.:eek:

[cswolfe]

No thanks, Big Mike. In those areas I don't care for the gangs that wear purple, so I won't fit in.

Thanks, guys. Wonderful thread.

[Drunkagain]

Really, really interesting thread. Thanks to the builders for the breakdown. I've never given much thought to whats done with the CNC and whats done by hand other than knowing it's more than I could ever do. Puts how much work these guys do into perspective. :dude

[Scott Peterson]

Personally I have always laughed at the "Handmade" concept.

If you buy evolution (or not) we humans made these cool things called tools. And with these tools, we have done some really cool things.

And folks have built guitars - and all their ancestor instruments - with tools.

The CNC is just another tool. As sure as a hammer, saw, chisel or straight edge is a tool.

So the whole debate stems from nothing but ignorance IMHO.

And it is a credit to the folks that took time out from building real guitars to put thier thoughts up here; those posts probably took enormous amounts of time and effort to commit to our screens across the world.

[hemlock]

I'm still saving for one of Saul's models built solely with fingernails and teeth.

[Scott Peterson]

Originally posted by hemlock
I'm still saving for one of Saul's models built solely with fingernails and teeth.

Again, tools. :D

Handmade, in the strictest sense, means using nothing but your hands. I'll let you use your fingernails, but teeth? You may as well be using one of 'dem evil CNC machines. :D

[Saul Koll]

That's funny! Wait, I gotta get the splinters out of my teeth....

OK!

This is an interesting thread. Great posts by all.

I am all for the best tool for the job, or at least the best tools that I can afford. At this time I have not gone that route but it is not because I have anything against it. I am very interested and continue to research. I am sure that at least some of my operations will be done that way before too long. I look forward to the new possibilities.

I am quite certain that Stradavarius and Amati would have used CNC had it been available to them.

In the mean time, please pass the floss....


cheers,

Saul

[John Mayes]

I do all my bodies by hand, as with my hollow ones and chambered ones I will vary things slightly to take into account the different woods and what the customer wants in the end.

My necks I have done by CNC to my specs. It is more accurate than what I can do by hand and if a custom neck profile is wanted then I have my guy leave it oversize and I can finish the carve by hand.

CNC is awesome for some things and not worth it for others.

[Mark Ray]

This is great stuff!

I've been through the PRS factory twice, and as others have already said the amount of real hands touching guitars is astounding. The machines just "cut out the canvas" as far as I'm concerned. The guitars take a ton of work to get completed.

Having a guitar built by Ron, with update pics from time to time was a real eye opener. Let's not forget that he still does inlay for lots of other guitars, on top of building his guitars. I knew the wait ahead of time, and couldn't expect the guitar to be done quicker than that. You're looking at 2 or 3 people working on it compared to 100+ (PRS). I don't know the typical wait time for a Private Stock from PRS, but I'm guessing it's considerably longer than a production line guitar-much more along the lines of Ron, Joe, etc.

Question for Ron: How did you get the neck blank for #29 to fit into the CNC?

:D :D :D

Mark

[Leonc]

Mark, I think Ron had to make a bigger CNC for your guitar's neck! :p

[DamianP]

Originally posted by big mike
And Ron's in California. Low overhead??

BWWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Try to rent an apartment here for less than 1500 a month.:eek:

If a rent of $1500/month is an indicator of high overhead costs then I`ll assume the answer to my original question is yes.

Just trying to get a handle on the viability angle of guitar making.

,Damian.

[big mike]

Originally posted by mouldynudger
If a rent of $1500/month is an indicator of high overhead costs then I`ll assume the answer to my original question is yes.

Just trying to get a handle on the viability angle of guitar making.

,Damian.

Sorry, I have my issues about living here.

Cost of living and expenses are somewhat ludacris here in California.
Completely out of control.

[Diablo]

I'm in Fort Worth Texas. We passed Las Vegas up as the fastest growing city in America. Real estate is getting out of hand here. A little house that looks like 120K is over 400,000! I had an overhead of around $3500 to as much as $6000 a month for 5 years depending on what extras I had coming in each month. Now that the Haas is paid off and some of the other tools, it's not so bad.

Gathering change up for lunch is something I remember quite well. I remember a few years ago, a period of 6 months with my car broken and having to walk to lunch each day. That had to stop when June hit and it was 100+ each day. By the time you got somewhere to eat, you would be so hot and sweaty that you weren't hungry anymore. Then walk back and get hungry again. That wasn't fun. Getting all of these high end tools though was really tough. I have most of the toys now so it's not bad anymore. Just need to get this huge backlog done.

[fyler]

wow. move to st. louis. my rent is $285 a month.

no joke.

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by fyler
wow. move to st. louis. my rent is $285 a month.

no joke.

Yeah, but you live in St. Louis.

;)

[John Hurtt]

Originally posted by JoeB63
Yeah, but you live in St. Louis.

;)

Ok, that was stinkin' funny! :D

Great thread and I'd like to give my thanks to all the manufacturers that have shared some insight ot this. I will say when I pick up my Thorn, it's stunning as both a musical instrument and a work of art.

As an aside, I have to agree that California real estate prices are ridiculously out of control. I live in the San Joaquin Valley, just over the Altamont pass from the Bay Area. I bought my house nine years ago for about $165,000. Similar houses in my neighborhood routinely sell for over $600,000 today.

I'm thinking of selling out and moving to St. Louis myself! :eek: :D

[pesocaster]

Great read!

[NickVig]

cool thread!! nice to see all the different builders chiming in.:dude

[scott]

Wow, Ron has it all down to the last hour. Nice going. I haven’t totalled all my hours on the guitars.....well....because im afraid to find out exactly how much Im making. Im not driving a Ferrari yet thats all I know.:)
Now that I have a CNC I will never go back. Its ridiculous to do the grunt work by hand when there is no need for it. I know I can carve a top by hand over and over , or rout a chamber in a semi hollowbody,but why waste the time. Time that could be better used obsessing about the details like, fretwork, finishing and setups. Its a no brainer if you ask me. Also the accuracy cant be matched. I would much rather have fretboards made on a CNC. everything is cleaner and more accurate all across the board.
Its amazing the misconceptions people have. I once had a dealer call me that thought I did everything by hand. I went on to tell him that I am now doing lots of it with a CNC. That pretty much wrapped up the conversation. He said, "at your prices I would expect everything to be done by hand. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a guitar that only costs you $100 to make." ????? I WISH!!! I still wouldnt be driving a Ferrari but Id be way better off. It was futile to explain that the guitars being made now are even cleaner than the ones I was making just a few years ago.
CNCs dont sand bodies, they dont spray finish, they dont wet sand, lay frets, level and crown frets, they dont sand bodies, they dont buff the finish, they dont wire guitars, setup guitars, they dont rough mill wood to dimensions, stain maple, .........ect. I could go on all day.
When I got my CNC it was not to save time but to make the construction of the guitars as accurate and clean as possible. Precision is the name of the game here.
In BC I have had the pleasure of meeting many old native artists that make wicked masks and carvings. Most of them were using chainsaws and power tools. Ive asked a few why they didnt do it old school with hand tools. All of them said the same thing ....... if the old timers had chainsaws they wouldnt have used axes made out of rocks!!.......Duhh.

www.heatleyguitars.com

[larrylover]

we'll consider this..... 2 employees at $70000 for the pair.....10 sick days a piece..plus 1 week vacation a piece. CNC $70000...works 7 days a week 365 days a year...and rarely makes a mistake.....and doesn't complain

There you have it! I'd pay big money for CNC's too. Guitars made without the bitching!

[Saul Koll]

Well said, Scott.
One other thing: CNC equipment does not design guitars.


cheers!

saul

(1986 Volvo wagon.)

[scott]

LOL Saul, crackin me up.



(89 jeep cherokee)



www.heatleyguitars.com

[MOJO]

Originally posted by scott
. I once had a dealer call me that thought I did everything by hand. I went on to tell him that I am now doing lots of it with a CNC. That pretty much wrapped up the conversation. He said, "at your prices I would expect everything to be done by hand. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a guitar that only costs you $100 to make." ?????
.......Duhh.

www.heatleyguitars.com

i'll bet i can quess who this quote was from:rolleyes:

[raz]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
I am quite certain that Stradavarius and Amati would have used CNC had it been available to them.


I just got this mental picture of Stradavari coming back from the dead and encountering one of his instruments that just sold for whatever ungodly amount. "For that one?" says he. "But that one was a piece of sh*t!!"

R
A
Z
(Who is probably a bit tetched still, owing to my first encounter with a Koll guitar last weekend. Stunning. Lovely.)

[scott]

Not who you might think MOJO. This wasnt that long ago, the guy spoke the same language tho.
A few dealers have phoned me with the same type of attitude. I wondered if they were assosiated with you know who.


www.heatleyguitars.com

[JDJ]

Archive this one, Scotty! :BEER

[Jack Briggs]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
Well said, Scott.
One other thing: CNC equipment does not design guitars.


cheers!

saul

(1986 Volvo wagon.)


+1 and +1 again, Saul!



(1987 VW)

[Saul Koll]

Dang! Some us luthiers are rolling in some skanky ass old cars. We need to get them robots to work it harder!

[aleclee]

Originally posted by JDJ
Archive this one, Scotty! :BEER we're not archiving anymore 'cause we don't delete posts outside the emporia anymore

[daveS]

Ron, Saul, Joe, Scott . . .and all the rest. Thanks for this post . . really interesting stuff. Coolness.

I really don't know jack . . . but having messed around with machining some alloys in college and at the model shop at past companies (aluminum, brass ,stainless), I always thought a CNC was the best machine shop invention since the vernier calipers :) . Plus, it's more fun to watch a robot, like a Hass or a Fadal, mill parts than it is to watch an old Bridgeport hackin' away.

Questions:

-Is the learning curve for programming a CNC pretty steep ? And how do you get the data from CAD station to the CNC ?

-For you guys who machine tremelos, bridges and saddles (steel & brass) . . . do you have flood cool your parts or is that not necessary ?

Just curious.

Cheers,
-d

[David Myka]

I guess I am one of the minority of non-CNC builders here who does all of my work by hand (by which I mean I operate the tools directly with my hands as opposed to automating it with a computer). I do have a pantograph router that I built for roughing out the tops of my guitars which saves me a good amount of time but it does still need to be operated by me. I do build jigs to guide the tools I use and these are designed to be as universal as possible so that, for example, I can route the neck pocket for any size and taper neck into any body style of any thickness and at any angle all with the same jig. I cut my scarf joints on the headstocks with a japanese saw and true up the surfaces with a hand plane. It is very pleasing work to do and is quicker than setting up a table saw for the task (which is a good thing since I don't own one yet).

The main reason I choose to remain hand bulder is due to my personal approach to building guitars. I build my solidbody electric and hollowbody guitars using the same principles that I use to build my acoustics. Essentially tap tuning the bodies, necks, and tops to determine the best mix of tonewoods to fit the guitar I am building. To get the required tones out of these woods some tops need to be thicker or thinner in areas and some bodies may need to be voiced through chambering. While this may be easier to grasp in reference to an acoustic or hollowbody guitar I do the same with the maple topped solidbodies. The top carve can make a huge difference in the response and overall tonal balance of the guitar. Some maple tops ring like a bell and some don't. If there is a heavy bass response that is out of balance I may want to use the dampening qualities of the maple and make it thicker in the bass area (generally the area behind the bridge). On a hollowbody I may want to thin out the edges more to open up the treble. I haven't yet conceived of an approriate algorithm that would effectively produce these results that does not depend on my personal favorite feedback device: my ears.

Altering the top carve also affects the neck angle (or height above the body) and/or the bridge height so all of this has to be adjusted on an individual guitar basis. The adjustable jigs I use are very flexible to accommodate these design variations adn woudl be difficult at best to program in CAD. For what I want to achieve it would be a compromise build to dimensional tolerances when 1/8 of an inch can be too much when finding the resonant sweet spot through chambering.

Having said all that I could certianly make use of a CNC router if I had one. I would put it to good use by having it do the more repetitive routing tasks like those already mentioned by the other CNC builders. I use my duplicarver to rough carve my tops oversize so I can voice them by hand. There is no other way to achieve what I do. If I had a CNC I would also use it to rough carve the tops. It would replace my pickups routing jigs and my fret saw without a doubt. But I would never hand over the most important task of voicing a guitar to a machine that doesn't know the differnece between a resonant, sweet tone and plate distortion. Both qualities have their place when building for a specific tone but building to dimension does not account for the subtleties that occur in music. This is where the human machine is superior.

[scott]

David,
I also voice my guitars much like you do. The CNC takes a lot of the grunt work out, similar to the way you use you duplicarver. On hollowbodies I always tune the tops before I glue them down. Same with semi hollows. The CNC can be used to rout tops thicker or thinner depending on where you zero out the machine. A guy can be pretty creative with these machines....its all how you look at it.
Im glad I built for so many years by hand, it taught me a lot about tapping and tunning but Im never going back. I figured I had better learn it sooner than later before I get left in the dust.
I build a lot of custom one off guitars that are still made entirely by hand. Its fun and it keeps my skills tuned up but I love watching that machine do its thing. Its pretty cool.

DaveS - yes the learning curve is massive but it is worth it and then some. I just save the drawings on a disk then take it to the computer that runs my machine and I write the code there with another program.
In a few years it will be next to impossible to compete if you dont have one IMHO. The competition is fierce for sure.


www.heatleyguitars.com

[Chun13]

Incredible post there, I guess the conclusion of the post is that luthier don't drive in Ferrari's because they drive their CNC's (or their saving for one :D)

Keep building the good stuff guys, that's so much love you'll share with us !

[Gadowguitars]

I agree with everything Scott said...and yes the learning curve is there but its getting easier with every year....5 years ago it would take 3 times as long to learn how to operate one of these beast. We use Rhino cad and Visual Mill cam.....5 years ago this technology would have cost $20 grand......we bought it for $1200.

To go from Cad to the machine....after design, we put a tool path on it with our Cam, which turns the program into G-code...we then save it to a disk (I can't believe we still have to use a floppy)...then load it into the Haas.

[bluestein]

Originally posted by David Myka
Essentially tap tuning the bodies, necks, and tops to determine the best mix of tonewoods to fit the guitar I am building. To get the required tones out of these woods some tops need to be thicker or thinner in areas and some bodies may need to be voiced through chambering. While this may be easier to grasp in reference to an acoustic or hollowbody guitar I do the same with the maple topped solidbodies. The top carve can make a huge difference in the response and overall tonal balance of the guitar. Some maple tops ring like a bell and some don't. If there is a heavy bass response that is out of balance I may want to use the dampening qualities of the maple and make it thicker in the bass area (generally the area behind the bridge). On a hollowbody I may want to thin out the edges more to open up the treble......But I would never hand over the most important task of voicing a guitar to a machine that doesn't know the differnece between a resonant, sweet tone and plate distortion. Both qualities have their place when building for a specific tone but building to dimension does not account for the subtleties that occur in music. This is where the human machine is superior.

Thank you David - I was hoping a Luthier would weigh in with that point of view.

Personally, I don't want a CNC anywhere near the top and back plate of my archtops....other than a very rough cut.

I can see where CNC might help with some of the grunt work in carving necks etc - but there is no substitute for a great set of ears and the mechanical skills to translate that to an instrument.

[Jon Silberman]

FWIW, master luthier Bill Cumpiano says tap tuning per se is mostly hocus pocus/bullshit though what many luthiers actually do while calling it tap tuning (see Myka's post, above) plays significant a role in voicing the instrument.

In a nutshell: "... the approach of people who've said that they 'tune' their guitars and the ones that don't, in the end, seem to morph together. What is the same is that THEY have become "tuned" to what the guitar is feeding back to them in all kinds of ways, in ways that they can understand but cannot explain or teach. "

The full article is here:

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm

[bluestein]

...And perhaps for him - it is.

But there are luthiers that DO know how to do it. Guys like Benedetto, D'Aquisto, D'Angelico, Schroeder and others.....

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by bluestein
...And perhaps for him - it is.

But there are luthiers that DO know how to do it. Guys like Benedetto, D'Aquisto, D'Angelico, Schroeder and others.....

I'm guessing you're unfamiliar with Cumpiano's work, e.g., it's probably fair to say his book on Guitarmaking is the bible of its field. In any event, through his website and newsletters, the guy routinely shares knowledge and techniques that many other luthiers in his position would be more likely to zealously guard as trade secrets. That's a good thing.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811806405/infoline0f-21/202-5480219-9103052

[David Myka]

Cumpiano certainly can make a nice acoustic guitar. I own his book and there are some excellent ideas in there but it certainly lacks in the area of voicing a top. He suggests just following the blueprints and building to dimentional spec. Does this produce a good guitar? Sure. If I have a particular way I want it to sound will he be the guy I would go to? Nope.

I took a class from Harry Fleishman years ago on the hows and whys of acoustic guitar building. This is where I learned the techniques of tap tuning and controlled voicing. There is a good reason hy you don't see books written about and it is because to demonstrate the ideas you really need to get your hands on several pieces of the same material to hear the inherent differences in them. And then you have to build a soundboard to practice the theory and realize how it works (we build the whole guitar). The results were mixed in the classroom but afterwards I went on to build guitars for people and had more than a few tell me that I nailed the tone in their head (both electric and acoustic guitars). If we are all having a group hallucination then at least it's got good tone :)

The difficilculty in talking about tap tuning and voicing without building is the same as describing improvisational techniques without actually playing. You need the hands on experience or you just don't get it. I never did.

Here is a different take by another master luthier Irvin Somogyi:
Somogyi article (http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html)

[robmarch]

since this thread is already full of good information from respected, quality luthiers of varying appreciation for CNC, I will go ahead and pollute it with the opinion of a "hack." :)

Building a guitar (or aspects of a guitar) by hand can give you a large dose of perspective in a short time on facets of guitar building. I know that, for me, a guitar is only as good as it's intonation, regardless of other aspects. I immediately decided that I would not cut my own fret slots on my last two projects, and would start with a CNC'd/precut fretboard at least.

I also had very few tools and no shop access on my most recent build, which happened in my finished basement. I wanted to maximize my chances of ending up with something playable, so I decided to start with a Carvin through body neck. Don't get me wrong, I definitely feel like I need to build a neck from scratch one day to have it in the bag of tricks, but in my position at the time, I decided to start with a known quantity here.

Now, starting with a CNC'd neck doesn't make for a good "handmade" guitar argument, right? :)

The next step was joining the 7/8" maple top. This thing was figured like crazy, and had moved quite a bit in shipment. The most exotic tool I had available to do this work was a hand plane. I don't see myself ever doing this again without at least a router table...it's just not worth it.

Next, join the neck and the body "wings" together. More joint planing (though the neck didn't require it, the wings did), clamping, and gluing. Now, remove the extra thickness of the neck to make a flat surface for the maple top to glue to. A forstner(sp?) bit in a drill press would have been great here, or a router in a jig, you name it. What actually happened was a hand drill, some chisel action, and sandpaper cleanup. I won't do this again without some sort of fixed "z-axis" wood removal, as mentioned above. I chambered the body at the same time, with similar technique, and also "routed" the pickup/switch wiring with a chisel before gluing the top on.

Plane the maple surface (a planer would have really helped here, probably before gluing the halves together due to size limitations), and glue together. "rout" the pickup cavities and control cavities by drilling most of the material out with a hand drill and chisel cleanup. I used a dremel freehand to clean up the edges that would show. I won't rout pickup or control cavities again without at least a router and a template.

This is probably already boring enough to most of you, so I'll stop here (especially not boring you with the details of hand carving the top). But, from my experience, I feel like there isn't much difference between milling parts on a CNC and using a template router, etc., except that the CNC'd parts usually come out more consistent. I also know how skilled you have to be to get a hand planed joint to make a perfect glue line (far more skilled than I am) and other items that are critical to the structure of a guitar.

At this point, I believe that the "magic" of a handmade guitar is in the quality control, the attention to detail, and the critical eye. I don't think using a CNC for critical operations diminishes the value of the work, and only makes for consistent guitars, and less gambling on whether a particular guitar is going to be a "dog" or a "gem." Wood is a natural product, of course, so there will always be variation, but better mating surfaces and tolerances help minimize the variables we can control.

Which is better, "handmade" or "cnc made"? In my opinion, even the CNC'd guitars have a lot of hand work, and even most of the "handmade" guitars use some form of a less robotically controlled CNC type operation (pin router and templates, etc.). I don't think there's a lot of difference in those operations. Now, if we're talking about someone who makes guitars with only hand tools similar to the manner I worked on my body above, I would say that these guitars would take a master luthier to be consistently excellent. If this appeals to you, be prepared to pay whatever this master luthier feels his time is worth. The rest of the boutique/high end luthiers select their own compromise of CNC, hand/template operations, and hand operations to meet their balance of cost and schedule. I don't see a big distinction here.

[hansoloist]

When it comes to building guitars I know one thing: jack. When it comes to the whole CNC vs. "Handmade" thing, I know another: shit. That's the extent of my luthiery know-how. All I know is that my Thorn demonstrates a level of precision that I have never seen in another guitar. And it sounds absof*ckinlutely bitchin.

Mr. Peterson, this thread is definitley one for the archives.

peace
-jeff

[Jon Silberman]

I'm with you, hansoloist, on guitar building, generally, and agree, there's lots of really interesting & good info. here in this thread.

David, thanks for your last reply - very informative and interesting! :)

[Scott Peterson]

It seems to me that there *is* a middle ground on CNC, even for the guys that tap tune or whathave you. And most of the CNC aware builders here have stated it, though not as plainly as this - the CNC does the grunt work and the detail work (fret slots, inlay) far better than by hand.

And for all it is worth; even a CNC cut archtop needs a ENOURMOUS amount of hand sanding and work to "tune" it. It seems to me, though I might be wrong, that folks are assuming that if you rough cut a top with CNC that you are then done and gluing it up. Not so.

You still gotta work it, sand it, chisel it, perfect it.

CNC doesn't rob the artisty from luthiery, it empowers the luthier to do his job to a higher level of perfection.

IMHO anyway; as a guy who has built 2 guitars by hand (took over 2 years on the first and the second was abandoned long ago) and assembled more than a few parts guitars (ala Warmoth). So take my opinion for what it is and nothing more.

[Denyle_Guitars]

For those who have visited my website, you may have noticed the little spiel about no cnc machines being employed. Well, let me tell you, it's not because I have anything against cnc. Far from it, I'm a techno junkie and if I had the $ and the space, I'd sure as heck have the cnc.

It all comes down to perpetuating a myth just to market your product. Why do you think Gibson still claims handmade when everyone knows otherwise.

Jeez robmarch, you really wanted to build yourself a guitar that day.

[T.Wesley]

Originally posted by scott
CNCs dont...level and crown frets...Actually, a PLEK machine will do that :D

I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

[David Myka]

Scott, very well said.

There is not a fine line of distinction between hand built and CNC (or semi-production) made guitars provided that there is equal and appropriate skills being used. How much a person uses a CNC or a hand carving plane is not a meaningful statistic for determinig the quality of a guitar. It is what you do with it that counts.

I think part of the difficulty with this topic are these extreme viewpoints. If you feel that you have to cut down a tree with a knife, sand it by hand with the sharkskin sandpaper that you got from a shark you caught while paddling a sealskin and whale bone kayak, and armed with an obsidian tipped spear in order to have a truly hand made guitar then I think the point is utterly lost. On the other extreme if CNC made means that you put wood in one end and a robot on the other is ready to string the guitar up for you then all is indeed lost.

Personally, I would prefer to have the job of falling a tree done with a nicely made chainsaw wielded by a skilled lumberjack. Their waiting lists are not as long ;)

[robmarch]

Originally posted by Denyle_Guitars
Jeez robmarch, you really wanted to build yourself a guitar that day.

:(

day? I wish. I was spoiled with access to lots of tools on the second one, and convinced myself that I could do it without them on the 3rd.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/robmarch/elephant%20guitar/sideshot.jpg

as highlighted on here already, the finishing is a very tricky part of the process also. Shooting spray can nitro didn't make this any easier.

If any of you reading this thread want to gain an appreciation for what actually goes into building a guitar, you now know what I'd recommend.

[Dirge]

Originally posted by Chiba
Actually, a PLEK machine will do that :D

I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

I've seen one in action too, it is cool but it is not as perfect as you might think. The problem is the grind stones, if there is an air pocket the stone can/will become flawed and then it eats the fret. This is what I saw happen and I was told that it happens fairly often. The documentaion is in German too. :D

Great thread, I thought it was going to be another one of those rant things. But it turned out to be really informative, thanks guys!

Off-topic: I have lived in the Bay Area and now live outside St Louis.
One of my friends back in CA bought a house in Freakmont 5 years ago for $450k, her house is now valued at $985k. And this is for a place where people steal the mail out of the mailbox, you have to keep you garage door locked and everything in your backyard chained down.

[r9player]

Great thread btw! wish I could afford all that cool machinery and stuff to make guitars .. me just tinkering along for now, nearing finish stage on a oft redone very abused guitar body :) (at least I got plenty of practice ..)

and the off-topic part
Off-topic: I have lived in the Bay Area and now live outside St Louis.
One of my friends back in CA bought a house in Freakmont 5 years ago for $450k, her house is now valued at $985k. And this is for a place where people steal the mail out of the mailbox, you have to keep you garage door locked and everything in your backyard chained down.

I can get you a place like that in Philly for ... $40K .. I think (prices have gone up, used to be $20K) Includes convenient drug dealer down the street and outside school shootings and stabbings!

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Chiba
I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

And so how's Phil doing? ;)

[scott]

Right, I forgot about the PLEK. I saw one in jan at the NAMM show. it was cool. At 100K I doubt I will be able to justify one for a while yet.



www.heatleyguitars.com

[T.Wesley]

Originally posted by fluxion
I've seen one in action too, it is cool but it is not as perfect as you might think. The problem is the grind stones, if there is an air pocket the stone can/will become flawed and then it eats the fret. This is what I saw happen and I was told that it happens fairly often. The documentaion is in German too. :DI'm sure every CNC machine glitches once in a while. I hadn't heard about the air pocket in the grinding wheel thing, so it definitely wasn't my experience. The Les Paul of mine that Phil ran through the PLEK was his 60th guitar to get the treatment and he hasn't had any problems yet, so 'fairly often' might be the statement of somebody who doesn't understand the technology, or is afraid it might take business away.

Anyway - Jon, Phil is doing well :)

Even Phil Jacoby, who is WELL known for his meticulous fret jobs, says the PLEK, while wonderful as a time-saving tool, still warrants hand & eye checking on each & every guitar to make sure everything's perfect. Like the other luthiers in this thread, for him the PLEK is a tool - it lets him take a 6 or 8 hour job and knock it down to about 15 minutes of attention at the beginning of the PLEK run and 15 minutes of attention at the end - PLUS while the machine is running he can be working on something else.

A PLEK still won't pull frets, install frets, trim fret ends, plane a fingerboard, re-radius a fingerboard, etc. Just a new fretting tool.

--chiba

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Chiba
he hasn't had any problems yet
--chiba

He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous.

He was spec-ing out the gtr and could not get it to work.

A re-boot finally fixed the problem but we lost a lot of time over the conumdrum.

The PLEK is a cool machine and provides some very detailed & precise information. He used it to calibrate but didn't use it to actually dress the frets largely because of time constraints. Next time.

Back to CNC's.

[Dirge]

Originally posted by Suhr
Not on ours! Our Plek Pro mills the frets with a cutter
I wouldnt want to do it any other way. It finds things humans can not and is a great analysis tool. Every guitar we make goes thru the PLek. Also the PLek cuts our Nuts Ouch!

That's cool, it does sound like a great machine. I saw it eat a fret while I was taking the Heritage tour at the old Gibson plant in Kalamazoo. Rendall Wall is the guy that runs the Plek there, and while he seems to know a lot about guitars. He wouldn't be the first person I would ask about computers. That was the only computer I saw in the place, not even one for billing, and it was in a room with no AC. So I'm not real surprised to hear others are having better luck with their machines.

[dirk nixon]

Originally posted by Suhr
The PLek Pro is sweet and a bit more money!
It has a profile cutter not grinder, cuts the nut slots (all at different angles, programable spacing) and is capable of inlay work as well.

Do you use yours for inlay work? I didn't know it could do that.

[Saul Koll]

That sounds like an incredible machine!

Here is view of how one guitar company balances digital technology and traditional methods. This is a link to a Frank Ford field trip to Collings, back in '01. I am sure there have been changes, but it is still very interesting.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html

Lots of pictures! Lots of cool tooling. If you have ever played a Collings, you know what kind of quality that Bill is achieving.

[philtone]

Howdy all,

I wanted to chime in about the Plek.

.[QUOTE]I saw it eat a fret while I was taking the Heritage tour at the old Gibson plant in Kalamazoo.[QUOTE]

I have a Plek Basic, which uses an abrasive wheel - abrasive in a rubberized base ala craytex - to remove fret material. This is similar to what folks like Rich Beck use for polishing. The wheels themselves are rather soft; it is not a grinding wheel as one would think of from say, a bench grinder. It is not even as hard as a ceramic jeweler's polishing wheel. Also, unlike a grinder, the wheel only turns when it needs to and reverses directions. It doesn't run at high enough RPMs to fly apart. I've never seen or heard of said air pocket. Those of you that have destroyed rotary tool wheels probably know the symptoms of the impending failure: heat, speed, forcing the wheel on the workpiece. The Basic I have and the one I've seen at Joe Glaser's do not exhibit any of these characteristics. Also, the machine tracks the diameter of the wheel and will not use it anymore beyond a safe point, after which the wheel is changed. The machine references itself every day and aligns the wheel for every job, sometimes more than once for one guitar. The machine measures between every pass during leveling operations. A Plek level is a very controlled process.

Besides, I don't eat frets. They don't taste very good!

Not on ours! Our Plek Pro mills the frets with a cutter

The Basic is geared more towards a repair shop, which suits my uses. John Suhr has the Plek Pro, which is intended more for production use. The Pro is faster, has other features beyond the Basic and uses a metal cutter. The Pro is better suited for an operation like Suhr's. Both machines use Plek's propietary virtual fret dress software to calculate relief curves. Both machines give accurate results.

He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous.

The software has multiple built in safeties. Its hard to make an error. The error that occured on Lance Hallam's scan occurred when I entered a measurement incorrectly by mistake. Even though I corrected it, it had already altered that particular file's algorithm. I couldn't correct the file, so after trouble shooting and a little advice from Glaser, I started the guitar as a new file and it went right through as usual. It was an opportunity to get to know the machine better.

Also, the Plek is shock mounted against environmental interference. Power surges, lightenting etc won't cause the machine to damage an instrument, but will cancel the process, to be restarted when the coast is clear.

The only trouble I have ever had is finishing refrets fast enough to load back into the Plek - and that's me, not the machine;). I'm not the fastest at many tasks. I take the time to do them to the best of my ability. The Plek has increased my quality and productivity - a winning combination. And I dig it!

It finds things humans can not and is a great analysis tool. Every guitar we make goes thru the PLek.

The measurement and diagnostic capabilites are the heart of the Plek. Courtesy of the Plek, I can now see all there is to see. I use this data to find and deliver the best possible remedies for given situations. I know of no more accurate method or process or approach to fretwork and action than teh Plek.

My philosophy is that every guitar and every player is unique. The Plek helps me to cater to individual preferences. And that is the name of the repairman's game.

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
That sounds like an incredible machine!

Here is view of how one guitar company balances digital technology and traditional methods. This is a link to a Frank Ford field trip to Collings, back in '01. I am sure there have been changes, but it is still very interesting.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html

Lots of pictures! Lots of cool tooling. If you have ever played a Collings, you know what kind of quality that Bill is achieving.

I ran into Bill Collings at the Plek booth at January NAMM. We got a demo. I'd love to get ahold of one.

[T.Wesley]

Originally posted by lhallam
He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous. He was spec-ing out the gtr and could not get it to work. A re-boot finally fixed the problem but we lost a lot of time over the conumdrum.I'll give you that was a problem, but not like the one described, where the PLEK trashed a guitar.

Back to CNC's. Isn't that what the PLEK is? :D

--chiba

AH, I just saw Phil's post! I can't really add anything, other than to say that with the PLEK Phil was able to show me how poor a refret was actually done on my beloved '77 Les Paul. Before Phil & his PLEK, the guitar felt OK to play - nothing special, pretty much like it had before the refret, but with taller frets if you follow. After the programming, scanning, buffing, cutting, buffing, scanning, measuring, etc. I realized exactly how crappy the refret had been. Before I was just twisted over some poor customer service, now I'm actually angry at the shop (which I will not name publicly) and they'll certainly never get any more of my business. Anyway - I'm of the firm opinion that the PLEK saved me from a frustrating early re-refret.

The thing about it is - even before Phil put it on the machine he was able to point out a bunch of places where the refret sucked, so it's not like he NEEDED the machine to tell him. He also critiqued my sh*tty nut that I made, but I can take the heat. After all, I work for myself for free :D

[Jon C]

Originally posted by David Myka
Cumpiano certainly can make a nice acoustic guitar. I own his book and there are some excellent ideas in there but it certainly lacks in the area of voicing a top. He suggests just following the blueprints and building to dimentional spec. Does this produce a good guitar? Sure. If I have a particular way I want it to sound will he be the guy I would go to? Nope. [/URL]

I'm not sure you understand what Bill Cumpiano is saying.

He's not saying that he does not voice a top for a particular sound. He's saying that voicing includes many factors and that that can be done through years of experience without necessarily "tap tuning" per se. He certainly knows how to voice an instrument.

I've known him for more than 30 years and played perhaps a dozen of his guitars. All just outstanding, and with some very different voices to be sure. When I described a particular sound I wanted in 1976, he nailed it exactly.

[David Myka]

Originally posted by Jon C
I'm not sure you understand what Bill Cumpiano is saying.

He's not saying that he does not voice a top for a particular sound. He's saying that voicing includes many factors and that that can be done through years of experience without necessarily "tap tuning" per se. He certainly knows how to voice an instrument.

I wasn't discrediting Cumpiano's skill as a luthier. I am sure his guitars sound and play as wonderful as they look. The couple that I have played certainly sounded good and had a great feel to them.

What I was talking about was his premise that tap tuning (and I will not put it in quotes) is a not a valid approach to voicing a guitar. This he states is because the people he talked were not able to adequately describe their techniques or had bought into it the hype and were spouting inconsistencies. Much like how in this very thread all of the CNCs users emphasized the great extent to which their work is done by hand yet the CNC supporters went on to bash hand building. Some even slammed hand building and then went on to validate CNCs by stating how much hand work is still being done. Hype is a wild thing and is responsible for a lot of very interesting logic.

All quotes are referenced from the Cumpiano article on tap tuning (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm)

To quote Cumpiano:
So I don't worry much about "tap tuning". I've come to avoid claims that some simple set of movements or motions will enable you to perfect the sound of your guitar, and all you have to do is understand these simple movement and motions, and all will be well and excellent no matter what else you do. It's a fool's errand.

The way he describes tap tuning is foolish. I would avoid claims like that myself. I have yet to meet a competent luthier using the technique suggest that tap tuning is simple and therefore not the product of hard earned experience. Nor do they suggest that tap tuning alone will produce a great guitar. And they most certainly do not suggest that if you tap tune an instrument that it will be great no matter what else you do. It is all about manipulating the subtleties of the guitar but I was never taught that I could learn this overnight. In fact I was told quite the opposite. Understanding what you are listening to and also understanding how it relates to the overall guitar takes time, experience, and experimentation.

When he describes tap tuners this is what he has to say:
Yet none have been able to explain to me clearly why they do what they do or what specifically are the goals they are trying to achieve—or how what they are doing is supposed to work. They just say that they manipulate the parts or the instrument until it responds in a "familiar" way.

Has anyone ever found the sweet spot on their amp before? You now it when you hear it don't you? This makes sense to me but I suppose it can be confusing. He then goes on to describe what it is that he does instead:

My path has been the harder one: Just doing guitarmaking until my ears and fingers and mind became familiar with the medium of guitarmaking.

What exactly is he clearing up here that is in any more precise terminology? Not much, but I am not going to try and hang him on that one praragraph (especially since I agree with him). He does come to some sort of an epiphany in the end with this:

Come to think about it, the approach of people who've said that they "tune" their guitars and the ones that don't, in the end, seem to morph together. What is the same is that THEY have become "tuned" to what the guitar is feeding back to them in all kinds of ways, in ways that they can understand but cannot explain or teach. But it arrives nonetheless, at it's own sweet time.

Thank you Jon C for urging me to take a closer look at his article. I would have missed his last point and misunderstood him completely. I do still believe that he doesn't get tap tuning since as I read through more of his articles he states this quite clearly. He does always seem to go back to saying that it works for some people so I have found some common ground with him there. I simply don't believe him about tap tuning.

I still stand by my statement however I will make it less personal. Understanding the techniques involved in tap tuning and knowing that they are built upon what most builders already agree upon I personally find it a superior method of voicing a guitar that produces superior results in my instruments. Having this experience I would not have a luthier without this understanding work for me. I would always know that I could have had more. Just an opinion but it is based on my exeperience as a builder and payer.

I think I should emphasize for those of you who are interested in the different methods people use to voice instruments that tap tuning (as far as I am understand it) is to be used to tune a guitar not just the soundboard. The soundboard along with the back offer the most fleixibility in terms of affecting tone but the construction of the bridge and saddle (for example) is also very crucial. The same goes for solidbodies, semi-acoustics, and hollowbodies. It is less apparent with solid bodies due to the myth of pickup and electronics being the basis for their tones. Solid bodies have more wood so the ratio to how much wood affects how much tone is much different.

If you are truly interested in learning about this I highly recommend a hands on class:
Luthiers School International (http://www.fleishmaninstruments.com/lsi.html)
Irvin Somogyi (http://www.esomogyi.com/classes.html)

Also for more information and a different perspective:
Dana Bourgeois on voicing a guitar (http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/voicing.htm)

~David

[Dirge]

Welcome Phil :)

Thanks for the details, I think it is a very interesting machine. I guess it goes to prove that they are just tools and it still takes someone that knows how to use them. I know I wouldn't mind learning how to run one.

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by scott
The CNC takes a lot of the grunt work out..........
In a few years it will be next to impossible to compete if you dont have one IMHO. The competition is fierce for sure.

www.heatleyguitars.com

I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

[Tom CT]

A wonderful, educational and enlightening thread - sincerest thanks to all the talented luthiers that have contributed!

And now, a joke -

A luthier, having just won millions in the lottery, was asked what he would do with his winnings...

"I guess I'll just keep building guitars until the money runs out."

Ba-dum! (Yeah, it's an old one) Tom :)

[edwarddavis]

Eastwood guitars must really have a lot of fast machines and Workers.

The bottom line is you get what you pay for and if you love the guitar and it sounds great who cares how its made.

The basic work is done by a machine and the real work that separates the great guitars from crap is done by hand by people who care about each guitar they build , thats what make the Great guitars better than the Eastwoods.:mad:

[avenalee]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

+1

;-p

[moreeye]

I am not a guitar builder but I am a mechanical engineer so I'll try to explain the good tone issue from a mechanical engineers point of view.
There are many factors affecting the tone, some are major, some are minor. All of these factors are functions of the good tone. So,
Good tone = A x (body wood's structural (chemical) property)+B x (the body's architecture)+C x (neck wood's structural property) + D x ( neck's architectural property) + E x ( hardware) + F x (pickups) + etc. So you can use some ore one of those factors to equalize both sides of the equation, however for example if there is a big gap between both sides of equation, the factors that have minor effect will not be useful. But if you are very close to the equation, twitching those minor effects will bring you to the good tone easier.

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

The Chinese are not an issue to us. Building a great guitar is. They said the same thing about the Japanese 25 years ago. I have a GP issue from the mid '70s somewhere with a round table discussion about the Japanese guitar makers.
Look where they are at now. They can't even afford to build guitars there any more than we can.
There wll always be educated and sophisticated guitar players who will appreciate a greta guitar.

[ChrisP]

Originally posted by philtone
Howdy all,




Welcome :D


Chris Padon

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by Ian Anderson
The Chinese are not an issue to us. Building a great guitar is. They said the same thing about the Japanese 25 years ago. I have a GP issue from the mid '70s somewhere with a round table discussion about the Japanese guitar makers.
Look where they are at now. They can't even afford to build guitars there any more than we can.
There wll always be educated and sophisticated guitar players who will appreciate a greta guitar.

I guess we will have to wait and see. At the moment China isn't a competitor in the high end market. Viewing China in the same light as Japan when it comes to manufacturing is a dangerous thing for most industries though. A google search will quickly show how much things have changed in the past 5 years for many industries. It is starting to bleed over to mid line guitars and amps and eventually will make its way to hi end instruments.

I'm not a luthier or music business expert, just a consumer. I have been in several music stores in the past year or so whose owners were amazed by the quality of some mid-line Chinese instruments. With some they commented that it made it almost impossible to sell the similar higher end item because the extra price wasn't worth it. It's only a matter of time before we are seeing USA PRS type product lines and quality coming from China for 50% of the price. It probably is a different story for a small shop that builds a handfull of guitars per week.

[Jon C]

Originally posted by David Myka
I wasn't discrediting Cumpiano's skill as a luthier. I am sure his guitars sound and play as wonderful as they look. The couple that I have played certainly sounded good and had a great feel to them.

What I was talking about was his premise that tap tuning (and I will not put it in quotes) is a not a valid approach to voicing a guitar. This he states is because the people he talked were not able to adequately describe their techniques or had bought into it the hype and were spouting inconsistencies. Much like how in this very thread all of the CNCs users emphasized the great extent to which their work is done by hand yet the CNC supporters went on to bash hand building. Some even slammed hand building and then went on to validate CNCs by stating how much hand work is still being done. Hype is a wild thing and is responsible for a lot of very interesting logic.

All quotes are referenced from the Cumpiano article on tap tuning (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm)

To quote Cumpiano:


The way he describes tap tuning is foolish. I would avoid claims like that myself. I have yet to meet a competent luthier using the technique suggest that tap tuning is simple and therefore not the product of hard earned experience. Nor do they suggest that tap tuning alone will produce a great guitar. And they most certainly do not suggest that if you tap tune an instrument that it will be great no matter what else you do. It is all about manipulating the subtleties of the guitar but I was never taught that I could learn this overnight. In fact I was told quite the opposite. Understanding what you are listening to and also understanding how it relates to the overall guitar takes time, experience, and experimentation.

When he describes tap tuners this is what he has to say:


Has anyone ever found the sweet spot on their amp before? You now it when you hear it don't you? This makes sense to me but I suppose it can be confusing. He then goes on to describe what it is that he does instead:



What exactly is he clearing up here that is in any more precise terminology? Not much, but I am not going to try and hang him on that one praragraph (especially since I agree with him). He does come to some sort of an epiphany in the end with this:



Thank you Jon C for urging me to take a closer look at his article. I would have missed his last point and misunderstood him completely. I do still believe that he doesn't get tap tuning since as I read through more of his articles he states this quite clearly. He does always seem to go back to saying that it works for some people so I have found some common ground with him there. I simply don't believe him about tap tuning.

I still stand by my statement however I will make it less personal. Understanding the techniques involved in tap tuning and knowing that they are built upon what most builders already agree upon I personally find it a superior method of voicing a guitar that produces superior results in my instruments. Having this experience I would not have a luthier without this understanding work for me. I would always know that I could have had more. Just an opinion but it is based on my exeperience as a builder and payer.

I think I should emphasize for those of you who are interested in the different methods people use to voice instruments that tap tuning (as far as I am understand it) is to be used to tune a guitar not just the soundboard. The soundboard along with the back offer the most fleixibility in terms of affecting tone but the construction of the bridge and saddle (for example) is also very crucial. The same goes for solidbodies, semi-acoustics, and hollowbodies. It is less apparent with solid bodies due to the myth of pickup and electronics being the basis for their tones. Solid bodies have more wood so the ratio to how much wood affects how much tone is much different.

If you are truly interested in learning about this I highly recommend a hands on class:
Luthiers School International (http://www.fleishmaninstruments.com/lsi.html)
Irvin Somogyi (http://www.esomogyi.com/classes.html)

Also for more information and a different perspective:
Dana Bourgeois on voicing a guitar (http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/voicing.htm)

~David

Thanks for your thoughts... I think behind the semantics you're probably close to what Bill is saying...

It sounds to me like you both generally agree that what's happening is the sum of some particular techniques honed & filtered through years of experience to find the "sweet spot."

Cheers,
Jon

[David Myka]

Originally posted by Jon C
Thanks for your thoughts... I think behind the semantics you're probably close to what Bill is saying...

It sounds to me like you both generally agree that what's happening is the sum of some particular techniques honed & filtered through years of experience to find the "sweet spot."

Cheers,
Jon

I was going to post some follow up thoughts after having some more time to think about all of this. I think you are right and that I was lost in semantics. It's easy to do and just about every article discussing these techniques suffers the same. It really seems to me to be the difference between left and right brain thinking. The left brain luthier is more likey to want to measure deflection and weigh the braces, or if they do use tap tuning they tune to a specific frequency. A right brain luthier will feel their way through most of the construction process and tune for optimum resonance and tone regardless of pitch. Pitch changes when you glue things together anyway so resonance seems more important to me especially after the guitar is glued together. As an example the data derived from measuring top deflection makes little sense to me but when I use thumb pressure to measure the same thing I get much more useful information. It's all about what you are able to see and hear and how you use and understand it.

Oh, and don't forget to align the grain of the wood with magnetic North while you carve ;)

~David

[Bruce Bennett]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I guess we will have to wait and see. At the moment China isn't a competitor in the high end market. Viewing China in the same light as Japan when it comes to manufacturing is a dangerous thing for most industries though. A google search will quickly show how much things have changed in the past 5 years for many industries. It is starting to bleed over to mid line guitars and amps and eventually will make its way to hi end instruments.

I'm not a luthier or music business expert, just a consumer. I have been in several music stores in the past year or so whose owners were amazed by the quality of some mid-line Chinese instruments. With some they commented that it made it almost impossible to sell the similar higher end item because the extra price wasn't worth it. It's only a matter of time before we are seeing USA PRS type product lines and quality coming from China for 50% of the price. It probably is a different story for a small shop that builds a handfull of guitars per week.

I think your forgetting Eastman instruments,

Their Archtops have already been touted as being as good or better than instruments that cost 10 times their price. ( Acoustic Guitar Magazine) and frankly I agree,... they really are on par with many of the top flite American Archtop makers.

I still build use all hand tools.. Only because I'm not able to afford CNC machines at present. Ron Thorn has said it perfectly, so no need for me to say anyting more about it.
CNCs are here to stay and any luthier that doesn't or can't take advantage of them, will have a very hard time competeing in the future market place.

Guitar making is about love and commitment ( or maybe just being commited) there is little to no money in it. just enough to eat with and thats about it.
Warrior instruments is surviveing on only God knows what.
but whatever it is.. there seems to be room for all that wish to step up.

I will make one statement about CNCs that is think is cruitial,

Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.
a CNC never had that capability and never will. it just runs a program... if the operator puts a "bad piece of wood" in a CNC, it will turn out a "bad guitar" just as fast as a good one.
My point being;... CNC or handmade .. a great instrument... STARTS with a great luthier. and every luthier is NOT created equal. this is where the real debate is. not who is "best" but who can make the best guitar for YOUR purpose.

every luthier has a "theory" about how an instrument should be constructed. some of them I agree with.... many, I don't... but NONE of them are wrong.. only the results are different.
each players has to evaluate the luthiers ideas and hope he can build an instrument that will meet his personal needs.

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett
I will make one statement about CNCs that is think is cruitial,

Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.
a CNC never had that capability and never will. it just runs a program... if the operator puts a "bad piece of wood" in a CNC, it will turn out a "bad guitar" just as fast as a good one.
My point being;... CNC or handmade .. a great instrument... STARTS with a great luthier. and every luthier is NOT created equal. this is where the real debate is. not who is "best" but who can make the best guitar for YOUR purpose..

This statement is so obvious I don't understand why everyone doesn't get it instantly.

All a CNC machine does, really, is remove smaller pieces of wood from larger pieces. It truly is all about:

-1- selecting the wood;

-2- positioning it correctly for CNCing;

-3- determining and doing any necessary post-CNC adjustments by hand.

Come to think of it, what may give CNC a bad image with some is where mass manufacturers omit step 3 entirely. But that is absolutely never the case with guys like Thorn.

[matte]

Originally posted by tms13pin
So, I'm curious: who uses a CNC and who hand-builds the whole
way through. And if a CNC is used, for how much of the build
is it used (just body? neck? carves?).

I'm not interested in a discussion over which is better, I have
no problem with machines. I'm just curious about many of the
"boutique" builders and what they do. I'd also think it'd be
interesting if some of the builders would chime in and say why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better,
worse, the same, etc. since they've done so. I'm more
interested in the builders viewpoint here, not the buyers, as
I don't want to start an opinion war. I'm sure output is higher
with the CNC. How does it impact customization, etc. for you?
Does that really matter (may not be part of your business plan)?
How do you keep the quality up vs. Fender and Gibson....
major automation but very big names.

For instance, Driskill does everything by hand. PRS uses CNCs
for things (how much, I'm not sure), Brian Moore CNC's the
bodies (at least), blah blah. I don't really know about
Suhr, Anderson, McInturff, Lentz, etc. Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders
(if you accept them) done completely by hand?

Lots of questions. Just trying to understand the small market
luthier industry a bit more. It's really been interesting since I
joined TGP to just lurk and see what players gush over, etc., and
I've learned about a lot of guitar (and amp) builders that I never
knew existed.

Thanks in advance for your comments and perspectives on this.

--Tom DFM. As a guy who has had guitars built to his specs by pretty much everyone (PRS, Grosh, Suhr, McInturff, Stevens, Baker, Hamer, JG, Koll come to mind immediately), from full on CNC to crazy analog, the devil is in the details. I know what I want, from soup to nuts, when it comes to guitars. Follow my recipe and I'll be happy. TBS, I'd love to have a guitar built by Bender.

[jtg116]

I've said this many times when this type of discussion comes up that, I got a deck made that cost as much as two JG guitars built by guys who could hardly read a ruler with about 25% of the cost deck in materials and it took a long weekend, while I can't go out and buy great guitars everytime I see one, who is overcharging for their skill and time? :confused:

[T.Wesley]

If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba

[matte]

Originally posted by Chiba
If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba :dude

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Chiba
Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender ...

Wes, you knucklehead - of course we all know this but for crying out loud, don't tell the luthiers!!! :mad:

:D

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

This question is mainly directed towards John Suhr, Ron Thorn and Joe Driskill. I am looking into taking classes on CAD and CAM I know you mentioned Rhino, the class teaches the programing on Autodesk
inventor and MasterCAM are these a good start? Can I switch to Rhino easliy after autodesk inventor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated the final sign up date is coming up and I want to make sure the classes are worth it. I can't wait to learn!

[KHK]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett
Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.


A good intellectual and practical argument for tone tapping above. Cutting all wood precisely to consistant dimensions ignores the biggest variable...the wood.

No two trees will produce wood that is identical in density, weight, grain etc which could/should affect resonance/tone. They will not be the same age, may not come from the same location, growing conditions a half state away will create more/less stress and yield differences...you name it, there are many, many variables. The density and weight of a given blank might vary from linear inch to linear inch. Having worked with a lot of wood over the past 10 yrs., I can imagine why "tuning" wood by hand and ear could yield audible results.

Also, to understand the 'by hand" vs machine comparison, you have to rule out the cutting process itself as having any impact on tone. All wood is cut by a blade...even Saul's teeth are blades and it is a process of removing material. The only thing that would affect the sound is what is left when you are done cutting and after it is finish sanded. Then, it would be dimensions, fit and the individual qualities of the material that would dictate the results (IMO). If everything were dimensioned "by hand", then you would expect more variability but the individual qualities of the wood will determine whether that is a bad thing.

An even bigger variable is how we as individuals perceive the finished product. Just look at all of the tone (guitar and amp) posts on the board. The so-so guitar that you just sold may be the buyers holy grail.

Starting with quality materials and paying attention to the details seems to be a constant amongst all of the builders who have posted here. On an intellectual level, I like the notion of the final dimensioning of a body (top + bottom) being done by ear. Regardless, having looked at examples of their work, I have nothing but admiration for the builders who contributed to this thread. Beautiful instruments!

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by Zamm
This question is mainly directed towards John Suhr, Ron Thorn and Joe Driskill. I am looking into taking classes on CAD and CAM I know you mentioned Rhino, the class teaches the programing on Autodesk
inventor and MasterCAM are these a good start? Can I switch to Rhino easliy after autodesk inventor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated the final sign up date is coming up and I want to make sure the classes are worth it. I can't wait to learn!

You are on the right track with Mastercam. It's a great tool for both the cad and the cam. You can do it all with that program.

Once you have learned to draw, it's not too difficult to pick up a new program. I started in Autocad. I am not familiar with inventor, I imagine it's a more surfaces and solids oriented program?

[Luca Z]

Coming back to the original question, CNC vs handmade, I'm not an expert, but I have owned several high end guitars, most of them with CNC in the process, and a couple of guitars that I know were completely handmade.

To me the latter have a different feel, I gues is what they call "hand made feeling". I have read long time ago in the Zachary web page that this may be due to the natural imprecision of hand making a guitar, but I must say that these are really great guitars and fantastic players; for the record, one was made by Gene Baker, the other (which I still have) by Tom Holmes in 1980. The Gene Baker one was much better than two other Bakers (with CNC) I owned.

[hansoloist]

Originally posted by Chiba
If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba

Beautifully put, Wes.

peace
-jeff

[Vince]

Hey Zamm,

Suhr turned me on to Rhino a while back and I really like it. I was using a cheaper program that did 2D pretty well, as well as regular Autocad, and the transistion to Rhino was easy. It's really straight ahead and has a lot of possiblities, and there are lots of rendering plug-ins available if students want to just build "for the screen". I do all my guitar design on it and suck it into Mastercam, but I'm using it right now for new hardware design, which is a lot of fun.

VC

[Ron Thorn]

Originally posted by Zamm
This question is mainly directed towards John Suhr, Ron Thorn and Joe Driskill. I am looking into taking classes on CAD and CAM I know you mentioned Rhino, the class teaches the programing on Autodesk
inventor and MasterCAM are these a good start? Can I switch to Rhino easliy after autodesk inventor?


Hello Zamm,

As stated by Ian, Mastercam usually ends up in the mix somewhere - usually as the G-code generator at the least.
Between myself and 3 friends that do this for a living, only one of us use MasterCam for CAD, the other 3 all use different CAD packages and export to MasterCam for code.

Guitars are relatively "simple" machines in comparison to what any of the mentioned CAD/CAM packages are capable of creating. I'm sure you'll manage with any set-up.

Best of luck with the courses :dude

Ron

[Gadowguitars]

We have found that Rhino is great for the CAD..nothing beats its surfacing.....the Visual mill that is packaged in with Rhino isn't that great. It did ok with simple pocketing, but when we got to our necks it failed pretty bad...but our neck design is pretty complicated also. We ended up going with Master CAM to get it done.

[Diablo]

Hi Zamm,

I use a variety of stuff. Surfcam is the main one for CAM. I create in it sometimes if it is something simple. It's kind of hard to draw in though. I've used autocad, solidworks, and surfcam. Autocad is great to draw in. Perfect for inlays and things. Then I IGES it out to surfcam to create the toolpaths. I was thinking about mastercam but don't have any time to learn a new program right now. Also thinking about Rhino since it sounds pretty powerful for surfacing. Once you learn one program though, especially something hard like mastercam or surfcam, the others are a lot easier to learn.

[Diablo]

Cool John!
I'm definitely going to look into Rhino. Just haven't had time to play with it yet. The biggest problem I find with the other programs is that they seem to be made to do mathematically perfect stuff using proper geometry. On a free form surface like a neck blend or especially an arch top, they suck. I finally had a light scan done of my top to get the surfaces for the arch. Otherwise, surfcam and solidworks were just not up to it. I even had a friend of mine who is an expert in Surfcam try it. The free form blends it didn't like. Now, if I only had time to play with Rhino....

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

Thank you to everyone who replied! You guys are the best and I respect and admire your work! I'm signing up for my first class "Hands-On" COMPUTER AIDED MANUFACTURING (CAM) WITH 2D APPLICATIONS. I can't wait to get started, we will make something in the class, of course my project will be something guitar orriented

[Diablo]

I had a white light scan done. From ADC. They do Harley Davidson's stuff among others. The surface was a watertight one and extremely accurate. They even did a story on me for their coporate literature complete with pictures. The one I sent them was hand done though, so I wanted to play with it. That was really hard! There are about 600 surfaces I think. I can't remember how many but there are a lot of them that make up the arched top. That makes it really hard to do anything with. I may want to learn Rhino or something so that I can do some stuff with the surface. I really want to get a hollow body out of these surfaces but it's kind of hard due to a variety of things. Especially when you have no time at all to learn how to manipulate that many surfaces. Thanks for the info.

[Vince]

When's the first run of chrome Classics going to be done?

Hey, did you score me that number for the exotic wood isolator?

(secret guitar builder code)

Zamm, I must have misread your first post as I thought you were teaching. Download the evaluation for Rhino and play with it. You get 25 saves. If you're a student, they have some pretty steep discounts for the full version.

[Harry Fleishman]

Someone asked about who is 100% handbuilt. All my guitars are 100% made by me, by hand. It is not better; it is just the way I do it. I also design for Fender and then they are largely done with machines. Again, not better or worse, just different. The biggest reason I do what I do is that I am interested in finding out what would happen if I made something this way, versus that way; if I built with this design versus that one. CNC is great for repeating efficiently. Hand building is great for custom work. I do only custom guitars in my own shop. If I screw up there is no one else to blame. If I design for someone else, I have to design what they want, what they can build, and what they think might sell. Both are interesting ways to work. All the threads here are great, good info. There are so many ways to do things, so many ways to make good guitars. Lutherie is one of the only areas where opposite ideas can both work.

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

I love that this thread is back! I have started looking into CNC Routers to perform simple operations such as small guitar parts. Does anyone know is techno-isel cnc routers are a good option?

[eric102673]

How's the class going?

-e.

[GuitarDiscountCenter]

I haven't had a chance to take the class yet, The schools near by have canceled the classes I wanted to sign up for, not enough people are signing up.

[george4908]

Here's the Harry Fleishman quote I like, from the other thread:

>>NEVER let a turd out the door.

That should be placed over the front door of every auto manufacturer, software company, appliance manufacturer, etc.

[Saul Koll]

"NEVER let a turd out the door."

Unless!

unless you are a turd maker.

[Neil Morgan]

Rhino is the Shitz!
It is the easiest program I have found out there to draw surfaces like Neck shapes and Blend.

www.rhino3d.com

They do offer classes as well but there are tutorials that can be purchased and will save you a boatload. You really dont need CAM unless you have a CNC. MasterCam is great but expensive and I cant stand drawing in it, there are also some less expensive packages for CAM like Visual Mill that work inside of Rhino

Hi John, I bought Rhino six weeks ago on the strength of your recommendation. Which in your opinion are the best tutorials? It's a great programme but I need to get to grips with the surfacing and blending.

[Boggs]

I have made them completely by hand and also sharing the work with a CNC router. You can maintain an incredible level of consistency by CNC as well as cut down work time when you use it for key operations. The chambered body midsections are done on CNC. The controls access panel are cut using a CNC with a .030 end mill specially made for this before gluing the back on. Tops and backs I do (other than the access panel) by hand. Each neck heel is measured and programmed into the CNC and the neck pocket is custom cut to a snug fit for a specific neck. I do outsource necks which are pretty much all CNC and their quality and level of consistency are top notch. My custom pickup rings are CNC cut to the individual pickup and the openings for the pickups are cut into the top via CNC for speed and quality. There is still a HELLUVA lot of hand work in these. I feel it is the best of both worlds.

[Kingbeegtrs]

A CNC doesn't have "bad days".

[dead mike]

Very informative read here guys, i've enjoyes it. I guess Fender and Gibson are technically handbuilt guitars then right? They use CNCs to cut bodies and necks then hand sand and finish thier guitars.

[John Mayes]

I use CNC for part of my guitars. Bodies are cut via CNC, headstocks, neck mortise and tenons, Fretboards, inlay. I carve the neck back profile by hand because I enjoy it and I often change things up to work for a customer. There is also dozens of hours of handwork that go into the guitar, as Ron mentioned near the start of this thread, even afte the CNC gets through doing it's thing.

[BIGGERSTAFF]

After taking notice of how many people neglect to wash their hands upon exiting the restroom, I'll take a CNC guitar every time. Thanks, folks, I'm here all week!!!

peace
-jeff

:)

Now that's funny.

[John Page]

I'm set in my ways big time.

For me it has always been as much about the process as it is the end product, so I do all of my work by hand. I have nothing against CNCs or the builders that use them, and I know that there I things I want to do that I cannot do without one. But I still build by hand.

I really enjoy "touching" the wood while I work with it.

There's an interesting fact about the difference between the way western tools and Japanese tools cut that kind of "says it all" to me. Western tools are made to cut when you push them away from you (the push stroke), Japanese tools cut when you pull them towards you (the pull stroke). It is said that the early Japanese craftsman designed their tools this way to draw the spirit of the wood into them while they worked it, to become one with the wood. I love the whole idea of that.

I'm sure there are lots of people that think I'm full of crap with that kind of thinking, but... oh well.

As much as I want to take care of my clients and make them the absolute best guitar I can, I still build for "me". That means to follow a process that brings me the most amount of joy in my work. For me that means building them by hand.

[DamianP]

I'm set in my ways big time.

For me it has always been as much about the process as it is the end product, so I do all of my work by hand. I have nothing against CNCs or the builders that use them, and I know that there I things I want to do that I cannot do without one. But I still build by hand.

I really enjoy "touching" the wood while I work with it.

There's an interesting fact about the difference between the way western tools and Japanese tools cut that kind of "says it all" to me. Western tools are made to cut when you push them away from you (the push stroke), Japanese tools cut when you pull them towards you (the pull stroke). It is said that the early Japanese craftsman designed their tools this way to draw the spirit of the wood into them while they worked it, to become one with the wood. I love the whole idea of that.

I'm sure there are lots of people that think I'm full of crap with that kind of thinking, but... oh well.

As much as I want to take care of my clients and make them the absolute best guitar I can, I still build for "me". That means to follow a process that brings me the most amount of joy in my work. For me that means building them by hand.


Works for me John.

Also, wasn`t it Lance Armstrong who said. "It`s not the bike"...

Damian.

[Saul Koll]

I really enjoy "touching" the wood...



Me too John, me too!



(Apologies in advance...)
:D

[Husky]

Well I believe in CNC, It is only cutting the perimeter shape, roughing the body surface cuts and neck shape. It is FAR from finished, and still needs many hours of hand and machine sanding. So hands are all over the wood many times before it can even be painted. The beauty in the CNC is totally accurate fret slots and repeatable accuracy for critical cuts and drill hits like bridge placement etc. The drag is they are not cheap, either is the software and both need study to take advantage of the process.

[Mike Navarro]

I think this depend in what is the meaning each one gives to the act of making guitars. I know everybody wants to make profit of the product they sale, but in the other hand, is the art of making a musical instrument, an art as painting, sculpture etc. And that’s the way I see the luthering art, technology is running to fast and very soon a lot of people will make love with high tech robots almost real and probably it will fell the same for a lot of them, but if I see this day, trust me, I will know, and doesn't matter what the manufacturer said about this “product”, I prefer the real thing!. I think in the future I’ll embrace a CNC for a shipper production model or something like that, but I’ll never replace the art of a TOTALLY hand made guitar with my name on it, for something “almost” hand made, the same way I prefer a Painting from an artist than a CNC landscape painting from Marshall's or JC Penney. But if we talk about profit, than I go to China to design a great guitar for the price, with out my logo on it! I’m very sure there’s a lot of guitars builders here than use CNC and there’s nothing wrong with that, maybe because some of them start this way or they have more work than they can handle and need the speed of this miracle machines, but the point is, this is not a matter of which guitar it’s better made (CNC or Hand Made), is how we define the art of making guitars!!
Mike Navarro
Guitarzonepr.com (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/Guitarzonepr.com)

[dwes]

Way cool that Mr. Page has Mr. Suhr as a link on his site.

That they, as luthiers, approach part of the build process differently but respectfully...:BEER

That's good stuff on TGP!

Dave

[Kingbeegtrs]

In the end it comes down to simple economics. How many guitars can you build by hand? How much can you get for one? Are there people willing to pay that price? Are there enough people willing to pay that price to sustain your business of making handmade guitars?

On the other hand there are a few simple truths:

There are a lot more people who are willing to pay $1500 for a guitar than there are who can pay $5000.00. To make things worse, how many of the people who can afford a $5000 guitar are going to want yours? Some guys like DeTemple are doing very well in this market, but I'm sure it ain't that easy. I have no doubt that a handmade guitar is going to be of considered to be of greater quality(truth and what customers believe can sometimes be two different things), but are people willing to pay for that kind of craftsmanship?

There are a LOT of people who would agree that a guitar made from parts made on a CNC is capable of being a great guitar if it is assembled correctly and set up right. Can one justify spending$5000 for a handmade strat when he can buy one almost as good for a third of that?

Like I said, it's a matter of simple economics. If I were to build one by hand I wouldn't be able to make a profit unless I sold it for a small fortune. It's hard enough to sell a $1500 guitar right now. I've got kids to put through school, a mortgage to pay, car payments, etc...

[David Myka]

Wow, this old thread! It's funny how this comes back from time to time. After spending the last 5 years building all of my guitars by hand I have come to the conclusion that I prefer it over automation techniques but for some very different reasons than what I posted a couple of years ago.

Of course accuracy and consistency has never been the issue for me but what I have come to realize is that all of my designs have evolved over time in ways that would not have happened if I had a standard design to follow. Things like the shape of my top carves, the way the heel blends into the body, the way my tops and backs are voiced, the very construction of the guitars themselves have changed. All of the details have evolved and transformed over time due to the fact that my ideas have changed as I learn and grow as a luthier with each instrument. I find a distinct freedom in hand building especially as I move more toward acoustic concepts. I also think that this is what will eventually produce our master works, the ability to refine and adapt to a higher realization of what the guitar is and moving every so slightly closer to that ideal with each project.

~David

[Ian Anderson]

In reality it is all speculation and conjecture until you actually use a cnc machine, tooling, and the software that goes along with it. I see alot of speculative posts that are off the mark here.

*Edit* To clarify the above comment... for instance, someone like Suhr uses cnc in a different way than I do, who combined with Lentz probably does not match his monthly output in a year, or Taylor where I worked, we doubled Suhrs output, mine and Lentz's for a year, every day!


My perspective is of someone who is being creative with it as a tool, not unlike someone who does art, music, animation, design, etc..... It has nothing to do with production. Hell it costs us more money to use cnc machines on our level than it does to work on shapers and routers. And they are just as accurate! With a digital caliper and some machinists layout tools we are accurate to within .003 with shapers and routers which is as good as you can get with wood anyway.

*another edit* Regarding it not being hands on, or stifling creativity or the ability to get hands on with the wood, changes can be made on the fly. Move around geometry to get absolute perfection. It is the ultimate set of hands. You can also use the thing like a micro surgeon to do things that are impossible to do by hand. It is a whole world in and of itself and opens up a whole 'nother door of creativity and imagination!!!

[2leod]

I'm a tool & die maker so I use CNC all day, every day. Ian is right, just as a chisel is a tool CNC machines are amazing tools, and in the right hands (or head as I'll explain shortly) the results can be exceptional and repeatable. The big benefit is being able to work in 3D, and with a 5 axis machine (where the cutting head has an articulating joint like a wrist) you can attack the piece from any angle - huge advantage when you need to work a cutter with the grain. The CNC tool is only as smart as the thinking that goes into the progammed toolpath however, so just having the tool does not necessesarily give you the advantage. Two people armed with the same chisel might have dramatically different results depending how well and smartly they use the tool. The downside to the machines are the high startup costs, so the volume of work needs to be there to justify the equipment.

[John Hurtt]

A CNC machine is just another tool to be utilized. If a luthier wants to build it by hand, that's cool. But there is no way that same luthier using hand tools can duplicate the precision of a properly maintained and setup CNC machine. I also doubt that hand tools can even do some of the incredible precision work I've seen. You can say differently, but that doesn't make it fact. There is no "Mojo" to be had by chipping a block of wood with a chisel. No mojo imparted by using a router, duplicarver or bandsaw. The mojo, if it exists, is created by an instrument that is as close to perfection dimensionally as possible. Fit and finish are everything, using a CNC doesn't change what wood is selected to be used on an instrument. It still comes down to how a craftsman selects wood, and uses his tools to make the best quality instrument he can. A CNC machine is currently the best tool in the toolbox ....

IMO there are those who use a CNC machine, and those who just can't afford one yet.

[Ron Thorn]

Art used to be scratching the burnt end of a stick on a cave wall. Now you can spend hundreds of dollars on a high-end sable brush.
I'd rather paint with the help of a fine brush, and I'd rather build guitars with the help of a CNC.

:BEER

Ron
Still powered by HAAS

[Eagle1]

Art used to be scratching the burnt end of a stick on a cave wall. Now you can spend hundreds of dollars on a high-end sable brush.
I'd rather paint with the help of a fine brush, and I'd rather build guitars with the help of a CNC.

:BEER

Ron
Still powered by HAAS
Well said :BEER

[Husky]

We are not talking about a robot factory here who builds the guitar, we are just talking about a computer numerical controlled router which uses the builders artwork as the cutting path. This is no different than making a fixture for routing on a pin-router, no different than a pin router except it is capable of so much more. The problem in most "large" factory CNC operations is that Engineers program the machines and draw the product ...not a guitar craftsman. Their motives are driven by other forces and these guitars would feel mass produced even if they were made with pin-routers.

The CNC does not replace any hand work unless you are the guy who cuts down his trees and makes his guitars with no help of anything motorized. It is certainly not practical to use CNC if you are making a few guitars a month and I would certainly not use one if that was what I was doing. But I would own a laser to cut the templates for the Pin-router ! The CNC has NOTHING to do with the construction, quality and tone of an instrument. You do not put wood in one side and get a guitar out the other. The CNC is just another tool, it is a computer run pin router, there is no difference in using a CNC except it is more accurate and safer and has a larger cost to the manufacturer unless he is in production. Bottom line is that the CNC is very misunderstood. The only way it removes part of the hands on experience for the builder is if he is not involved in the drawing of the shapes to feed the CNC. When people come here they are often amazed at how much hand work still needs to go into a guitar after it comes off the machine. My guys are pros and get top dollar, if the CNC did what people think it does I wouldn't need such skilled labor.

[Mike Navarro]

IMO there are those who use a CNC machine, and those who just can't afford one yet.
__________________
-- John

Jonh, you forgot two more possibilities in your equation....there's the one who can afford a CNC and doesn't have it because thinks that's devalue the art of the hand craftsmanship and the others that use a CNC because doesn't have the capability to make a PROFESSIONAL guitar with out it!, or doesn't know how to!

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com


IMO CNC machine aren't the expensive machines were 10 years ago, just get a look on the web.

[John Page]

I don't believe for a minute that a "hand-built" guitar is better that a CNC built one, nor visa-versa (did I spell that right?). My only point was that I build "by hand" for me, that's all.

John Suhr's point about "factory" CNCs being programmed by engineers vs small company luthiers CNCs being programmed by guitar craftsman is also incredibly valid. I think John builds one of the best guitars around and quality like his makes it harder and harder for us all to keep up with. Thanks for that John... seriously. As each builder pushes for higher quality the customer/player ultimately wins.

As far as "the only luthiers who don't use CNC just can't afford one yet" - When I ran the Fender Custom Shop we had CNCs and pin routers, builders could go either way depending on their preference and the order. I still liked the hand rout (no pun intended). As I said before, for me it's the process, not just the end result. I don't think there's an argument here, just personal preferrence.

I would never question whether John and Ron love touching their wood too.

(That one's for you Saul!)

[Kingbeegtrs]

Art used to be scratching the burnt end of a stick on a cave wall. Now you can spend hundreds of dollars on a high-end sable brush.
I'd rather paint with the help of a fine brush, and I'd rather build guitars with the help of a CNC.

:BEER

Ron
Still powered by HAAS

probably the best post on this thread.

[Rosewood]

If I had the money I'd be cnc-ing my a$$ off, and like John said it ain't like a cnc is spitting guitars out. You still get to do the things that make guitar building fun.

[English Jim]

I'm not sure as a consumer I want to pay a skilled artisan to hack away at a plank of wood removing all that material when a machine could do the same thing in a fraction of the time. The difference between a great gtr and an also ran is in the last few mil of shaping, in the finish sanding and of course the painting.

While I'm happy the making gtrs is such a spiritual endeavor for some folks I'm not really down with paying for your search for nirvana.

I've seen the amount of hand work that goes into a Lentz or an Anderson (Ian or Tom!) and I'm comfortable where the time/money is being spent and it's not in whittling away at 12 x 4's and becoming one with wood.

[Kingbeegtrs]

The quality of work done by a CNC that was set up properly is superb to work done by hand. Period.

I can buy a body from B. Hefner for $125 and the neck pocket is so tight that I can barely get the neck in...that is precision at its finest. If I can buy that kind of precision for $120 why in the hell would I want to make them myself? I'd buy a CNC if I made enough guitars to justify it, but for a guy who makes 75 - 125 guitars a year it simply doesn't make any sense. I am being 100% truthful when I say that out of a few hundred necks that I have bought from Allparts I have only sent one back....and in all fairness to them it was probably my fault because I left an unfinished neck in a humid shop that was about 90 degrees for a couple of days.

People used to plow fields with a mule, and I guarantee you that the farmer and the mule are both a whole lot happier with that John Deer doing the work.

[English Jim]

That's cool, English Jim. Now can you tell me, what does a CNC machine cost to buy, program, and maintain, and how many guitars does the luthier owner need to sell to reach break even and at what price points? Because I'm not so sure I, as a consumer, necessarily am really down with paying for the luthier's search for high technology.


Touche!:AOK

Of course most small builders don't actually buy all that equipment - they rent time from full service machine shops. It is still expensive though.

[snoopy1@isoc.ne]

If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba

Very well said!!!

[PinoyBoy]

First of all, I think it's cool that the builders themselves are chiming in on this topic. One of the many cool things about this forum. Most of us would never get to interact with them if not for the board.

Now, my point. I still believe that IN GENERAL, manual labor leads to a higher defect rate compared to machine-enabled production... ASSUMING that the machinery utilized is proven to be 100% efficient and precise. Of course, I'm no guitar builder and am simply a management consultant who lives/breathes all that process improvement stuff -- six-sigma, lean, etc. so that's obviously where my philosophy is coming from. I personally have no idea how efficient or accurate CNC machines are, but if they are, then I see no issue with those who choose to use one.

Bottomline... CNC or no CNC... ALL YOU GUYS BUILD AWESOME GUITARS!!!

[Kingbeegtrs]

A skilled luthier hand-carving a guitar is not plowing a field with a mule, rather, he is akin to the farmer on the John Deer versus a programmed "robo-plower."

And that's it for me - I'm quitting now before every luthier on this page is hating me! :o


Did you know that the "programmed robo plower" actually has a GPS device that saves diesel fuel because it never overlaps? Go figure. And the seeders that they make actually save seed. Why? Because a human isn't involved. Humans make mistakes that programmed devices don't...unless the human that programmed it did. Technology always makes a way for new and better ways of doing things. Just ask Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Edison.

And for that other post about doubling the price and still competing with big names...that's spot on. I guarantee you that a guitar that a guy like myself makes for $1650 is every bit as good as a Fender Custom Shop that costs $4000.00 - if not better. The only thing that they have going for them is a name and a reputation that burned out in 1964....heck, we hadn't even put a man on the moon when that company lost its way. My grandpa was a young man!

[stan p]

Not who you might think MOJO. This wasnt that long ago, the guy spoke the same language tho.
A few dealers have phoned me with the same type of attitude. I wondered if they were assosiated with you know who.


www.heatleyguitars.com (http://www.heatleyguitars.com)

There are many uneducated dealers serving uneducated customers... unfortunately.

[Ron Thorn]

I'm not interested in a discussion over which is better, I have
no problem with machines. I'm just curious about many of the
"boutique" builders and what they do. ...I'm more
interested in the builders viewpoint here, not the buyers, as
I don't want to start an opinion war.--Tom


Wow, it only took 3.5 years to derail into "which is better". Exactly what the OP didn't want. That's a pretty good run.
:BEER

[OldSchool]

Wow........I didn't even know this thread existed. Just read it completely. Very cool read with alot of amazing talented people. Hope it runs another 3 years and most here are still doing it however they have had sucess in the past.

[John Hurtt]

IMO there are those who use a CNC machine, and those who just can't afford one yet.
__________________
-- John

Jonh, you forgot two more possibilities in your equation....there's the one who can afford a CNC and doesn't have it because thinks that's devalue the art of the hand craftsmanship and the others that use a CNC because doesn't have the capability to make a PROFESSIONAL guitar with out it!, or doesn't know how to!

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com


IMO CNC machine aren't the expensive machines were 10 years ago, just get a look on the web.

Mike,

Let me expand on what I said. The CNC is a tool, no different than a pin router, a chisel, a set of files of an block sander. The luthier that uses those tools to their potential, and have a vision of what they want to accomplish will produce the best craftsmanship....period. First, even the title of this thread is incorrect. "All hand made" vs. CNC doesn't exist. You grab a tool...any tool...and I could make a case you are not building a "all hand made" instrument. Any hand builders run wood through a planer or use a router or any type of powered tool are not "all hand building".

Proper use of a CNC machine will turn out a consistently higher-quality and REPEATABLE instrument than someone who doesn't, all other things being equal. If you don't believe that than you just don't have a grasp on what that particular tool can do. How can you "devalue" an instrument by making it better, more consistent and faster? Now, you can make the instrument more inexpensive to make. If you are counting on a huge amount of unnecessary, and less precise equipment and labor to make a product (and basing the price on that) than you are cheating yourself and the consumer.

I run a manufacturing facility in the semiconductor industry. In my machine shop I have 2 Puma CNC lathes, 2 HAAS Mills and a Kiwa horizontal work center. The Kiwa has a pallet changer and multiple tombstones. I can run ultraprecise parts, and hold tolerances much more tighter than you could possibly believe and run them all night...without an operator.

The only reason to not use a CNC machine is if you are uninformed or just can't afford one. Straight out...

[Kingbeegtrs]

Exactly. It is a tool. As technology advances, the tools become more and more efficient due to innovations. The CNC will allow a skilled luthier to produce something far superior to something that he could spend days chiseling away at. It is simply a matter of him letting go of the old and learning how to use new tools. Stubborn guys who don't want to do this will go the way of the dinosaur. Take the web for example. Ten years ago this guy told me that people would never buy a guitar off of the internet. "Who'd buy a guitar that he never played before?" he said to me. For a while I believed him until I started seeing people buying cars, saltwater fish for their aquariums, and plants on the internet. Now here we are in the modern age...this very site is an advertising tool for countless luthiers and builders across the planet. I surely don't see any of them posting about how it would lead to more "mojo" if he went door to door saying "excuse me, is there a guitar player in the house?".

[Mike Navarro]

Did you know that the "programmed robo plower" actually has a GPS device that saves diesel fuel because it never overlaps? Go figure. And the seeders that they make actually save seed. Why? Because a human isn't involved. Humans make mistakes that programmed devices don't...unless the human that programmed it did. Technology always makes a way for new and better ways of doing things. Just ask Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Edison.

And for that other post about doubling the price and still competing with big names...that's spot on. I guarantee you that a guitar that a guy like myself makes for $1650 is every bit as good as a Fender Custom Shop that costs $4000.00 - if not better. The only thing that they have going for them is a name and a reputation that burned out in 1964....heck, we hadn't even put a man on the moon when that company lost its way. My grandpa was a young man!

Kingbee, computers, machines, programs fail as everything else, in general, computers for me is a nightmare, and the same way sometimes I have problems with "X" program, machinery etc, you will have it with the CNC, it still the same basic components. In the other hand, I love your guitars, you define it with the correct term, mojo!, looks great and I'm pretty sure they sound and play great!. I give the same option in my shop for those can't afford the price of the Navarro ones, normally I use Warmoth parts, always order with out frets, mounting studs tremolo holes and I prefer make by myself the Floyd locking nut cutaway. In the headstock I use the Warmoth logo with a "by Navarro", it's mean I did all the work except the body and neck making, no electronic holes including the input one, and still great guitars. I think CNC or Old School handcraft, the important thing is the quality of the components and the skill of the builder, but I still think guitar making is more an art than a simple construction.


http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/GuitarZonepr/WarmothEditada.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/GuitarZonepr/WarmothHeadstock-1.jpg

Mike Navarro

http://Guitarzonepr.com

[Kingbeegtrs]

Sigh - I fear you're right. Just look - -it's already happening to recording. It's just a "T"ool there too, right, but we know it does matter. However, there remains a place in the scheme of things for the dinosaurs (and hopefully aways will) because it's arts and crafts. Last year's invitations to our daughter's bat mitzvah were hand-lettered. As a result, they cost more and were less "perfect" than had we used set type. I hope calligraphers don't go out of business as a result, Kingb, because of how they spend days chiseling away at it. The world would be a colder place as a result and people like me less happy with the outcome.

Does this make any sense at all to y'all?

we're not talking about cursive writing...we're talking about sticking a neck into a neck pocket on a guitar that has to be in tune...all of the time. Intonation, proper fit, the whole nine yards. I'm sorry, but that's just not a valid argument.

and Navarro...those warmoth necks were made on a CNC. The main thing is that the guy using the
CNC has to know what he's doing. The operator is still the most important factor here.

[DamianP]

The means of rough woodcutting is one of the least important aspects of good guitar making.
Much less the making of a good guitar.

Damian.

[mike barth]

Sorry if this has been said already. A true hand made guitar is prototype, as no 2 will be the same. I find comfort and reverence for the consistency that CNC blesses us with.
Put down the buggy whip and enjoy the best instruments, er, Guitars, that were ever made.
I think I'll go fondle my Anderson now

[John Mayes]

And there are plenty of Luthiers here, myself included, who easily have the chops to build a guitar start to finish and have it come out awesome. I've built, or had a major hand in building, almost 900 acoustic guitars (plus another 150 or so other guitars/ukes). Acoustics, while a different animal all together, are, in my opinion, vastly harder to build than an electric. I know I have the physical skill sets to build a world class acoustic, or electric by myself from A to Z. I've done it many, many, many times. I choose not to on my bombshell guitars for a couple reasons.

First and foremost it's for the players. If I hand build every tiny bit of the guitar myself then my guitars would start out in the $3,000 range rather than $1,600. That's a choice I made to benefit the buyers, as well as expand my target audience. And secondly I think CNC's are something that, in no way, take away from the end product in the users hands. In fact quite the opposite. I work with eight different Haas VF4's and a large Haas gantry every day. In the shop there are $15,000 milling machines and $65,000 planers, a $140,000 Plek Machine, a $15,000 wide belt sander, ect.... All of these tools are replacing something that could be done by hand, but they do it either faster, or more accurate. Often times both at the same time.

We use all sorts of tools that take away a certian hands on feel to things. It dosen't take away any "Mojo". It is simply another path that leads to a end product that can either be very good or very bad. Which one still depends on the craftsmans skill.

At the same time I can certainly appreciate the aspect of doing it all by hand. It's a romantic notion. It kindles up thoughts and images of a grey bearded man sitting by a dim light at a bench skillfully and slowly carving a wooden object destined to bring musical bliss into this world. In reality though even guys who "hand make" everything still use lots of power tools, jigs, machines. I did, and still do on my acoustics which, except for the fretboard, I "hand make" everything. And if a person is so inclined to believe that a computer controlling a router around the perimeter of the body that it's worse than a person controlling that router on a template around the perimeter of the body then that's fine, but it an emotionally charged decision. That's fine, and it's a personal decision, but it's not one that can be made across the board for everyone, and every luthier.

[Ron Thorn]

" As a result, they cost more and were less "perfect" than had we used set type. "

The same applies to slotting a fretboard...wouldn't you want it as perfect as possible, regardless of means?

[7String Thing]

i like the farming analogy.

No one bitches that the steak there chowin down at Ruth Chris was cut with a bandsaw at the butcher shop. They just chew and know its good. (yes go to a butcher shop, they do cut steak with a bandsaw)

I say if it feels good, ill play it. If it sounds good, ill play it. If it was made by 3 apes in white lab coats with a space ship laser, and it sounded and played good, id play it.

I have both hand made and CNC made guitars. I love them both, but i do like the precision of CNC a bit more.

Parkers are very very CNC operated, but also just as much time goes into hand carving and laying the carbon glass skin over it etc.

My Alembic is incredibly hand made for almost all of it i believe, but its not any better than the Parker.... Just more expensive!

[Mike Navarro]

and Navarro...those warmoth necks were made on a CNC. The main thing is that the guy using the
CNC has to know what he's doing. The operator is still the most important factor here.
__________________
Owner of King Bee Guitars
True Texas Mojo


I know that Kingbee!! I posted the picture to show that I give the option of the CNC parts made (Warmoth)for less price, there's nothing wrong in it, but in my case, I always asked to the guys in Warmoth to send me the necks with out frets, locking nut cut and the bodies with no tremolo mounting studs holes and electronics, in the beginning y got some alignment problems with the CNC holes and cuts they made, so I trusted more in my capabilities. This Warmoth parts guitars is the option I give
under $2,000.00.

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[Michael T]

I dont care to be honest. I want a guitar that feels nice to me and sounds good.

It can be made on CNC or by hand. Truth be told I kind of like how Paul Smith says that there are some areas better done on CNC and others that are best done by hand. Same goes for any manufacture process.

[Jon Silberman]

Hey guys, don't believe this is something I've ever done before but decided to delete my posts here. Ultimately, there are really only two kinds of guitars(just like there's only really two kinds of music): good and not. CNC or otherwise is a red herring. Somehow I got sidetracked but I'll quaff a brewski and practice my guitar playing now. :)

[studiodunn]

I was actually sending a response with smoke signals but decided my keyboard was faster and more accurate.

[Pietro]

Of course, when I pick up a guitar, the first thing I think is "Does this guitar sound like it was made using computers?" And if so, I put it down and try to find one that wasn't...

...that was a joke...

[Kingbeegtrs]

i like the farming analogy.

No one bitches that the steak there chowin down at Ruth Chris was cut with a bandsaw at the butcher shop. They just chew and know its good. (yes go to a butcher shop, they do cut steak with a bandsaw)

I say if it feels good, ill play it. If it sounds good, ill play it. If it was made by 3 apes in white lab coats with a space ship laser, and it sounded and played good, id play it.

I have both hand made and CNC made guitars. I love them both, but i do like the precision of CNC a bit more.

Parkers are very very CNC operated, but also just as much time goes into hand carving and laying the carbon glass skin over it etc.

My Alembic is incredibly hand made for almost all of it i believe, but its not any better than the Parker.... Just more expensive!

and don't forget that Ruths Chris uses an oven that they have a patent on that cooks a steak in a very unorthodox manner - they broil them in an 1800 degree oven. Holy smokes, Julia Childs just rolled over in her grave because I used some beef base instead of boiling down veal bones for 12 hours! Oh my God - did you just use the remote control instead of getting your fat ass off of the couch to change the channel? What? I can't hear you...I don't want to buy hearing aids because they're made with modern technology. People who are anti CNC may as well go to an amish community and have some button-less shirts made while they're at it.

[2leod]

If I may, I'd like to elaborate on something that has already been stated eloquently by the builders here. There's a German machine tool builder (DMG maybe?) that takes apprentices through their first year making things using time honoured methods - hammers, files, broaches, hacksaws etc. In other words they only use hand tools so that the appys get a feel for how the different steels and materials behave and so they develop an understanding of where metal working processes came from - then when they get to building CNC machines and maybe even later designing them, that framework helps them apply the technology correctly. The person who can make CNC technology work best are craftsmen (I use the term androgynously) not computer whizzes. There are plenty of programs that exist now (Mastercam for example) that draw from a large knowledge base of skilled crafting, and translate that into appropriate toolpaths but the part of the job I enjoy the least is sitting in front of the screen trying to coax the best results from the programs. The end result is immensely satisfying though...

[Mike Navarro]

I live my life since 1966 around guitars, 40 years as a guitar player, 11 of those years as a professional musician (1982-1923), worked 3 years in the biggest music store in the island as an adviser and a luthier since 1985, for me guitars isn't just a "tool" or a product over a counter, definitely it's more than that!, I can accept not everybody can understand the concept, maybe because not everyone has the same passion and they believe they do. Guitar Zone Custom Shop not only make guitars, the main income is from restore, repair a customizing all kind of brands. Apart the guitars I owned by 40 years, I worked and still do all brands of guitars for almost 24 years, 360 days per year, 10 to 12 hours daily, and you don't have an idea how much you can learn from all those factories and independent, all this experience give me the knowledge and capability not only to make an instrument base in the best part designed of each company, also the weakness in each one to avoid it!, in part that's why I kept the repair department in my shop. I seen to much guitars daily to read here than the guitars in CNC are "better" in terms of precision as a true fact, yesterday I took some pictures from some of the guitars in the shop in the repair section, pictures from top brands to posted here to show how "perfect" a CNC machine work, mostly guitars with string, neck dots and pickups out of center line (upper E string to much close to the edge and low E to inside etc) with no room in the neck pocket to fix it etc, because the "CNC" didn't make the bridge holes in the correct position or wrong alignment in the neck pocket. I reset and desist to post the pictures for two reasons, one because I felt isn't ethical to put any brand on spot here, and second, I feel this thread it's getting to far and personal in some of my colleagues here! In conclusion, You will see none perfect CNC or totally hand made guitars, in my case, I almost make the entire guitar, I don't use pre cut, pre slotted, pre nothing in terms of the wood, I make my own trus rod, wood veneers, inlay cuts, nuts, wood fretboard nuts and sometimes part of the hardware in custom work, now I'm working in my own pickups and looking for machinery to start making my own design hardware. And probably some of you think this is stupid when there's a lot of company's who make all those parts, but that's the point I try to establish here, for me the guitar making is an art, and when I finish one of mine it's a matter of proud, I said...I created this baby almost completely from scratch and look what is now!. When I make an ens ambling guitar as the one I posted (Warmoth one), I don't feel nothing more than the check I received. So this is not a matter of living in New York or Amish county, it's a matter of proud!

Mike Navarro
Navarro Custom
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[John Hurtt]

I live my life since 1966 around guitars, 40 years as a guitar player, 11 of those years as a professional musician (1982-1923), worked 3 years in the biggest music store in the island as an adviser and a luthier since 1985, for me guitars isn't just a "tool" or a product over a counter, definitely it's more than that!, I can accept not everybody can understand the concept, maybe because not everyone has the same passion and they believe they do. Guitar Zone Custom Shop not only make guitars, the main income is from restore, repair a customizing all kind of brands. Apart the guitars I owned by 40 years, I worked and still do all brands of guitars for almost 24 years, 360 days per year, 10 to 12 hours daily, and you don't have an idea how much you can learn from all those factories and independent, all this experience give me the knowledge and capability not only to make an instrument base in the best part designed of each company, also the weakness in each one to avoid it!, in part that's why I kept the repair department in my shop. I seen to much guitars daily to read here than the guitars in CNC are "better" in terms of precision as a true fact, yesterday I took some pictures from some of the guitars in the shop in the repair section, pictures from top brands to posted here to show how "perfect" a CNC machine work, mostly guitars with string, neck dots and pickups out of center line (upper E string to much close to the edge and low E to inside etc) with no room in the neck pocket to fix it etc, because the "CNC" didn't make the bridge holes in the correct position or wrong alignment in the neck pocket. I reset and desist to post the pictures for two reasons, one because I felt isn't ethical to put any brand on spot here, and second, I feel this thread it's getting to far and personal in some of my colleagues here! In conclusion, You will see none perfect CNC or totally hand made guitars, in my case, I almost make the entire guitar, I don't use pre cut, pre slotted, pre nothing in terms of the wood, I make my own trus rod, wood veneers, inlay cuts, nuts, wood fretboard nuts and sometimes part of the hardware in custom work, now I'm working in my own pickups and looking for machinery to start making my own design hardware. And probably some of you think this is stupid when there's a lot of company's who make all those parts, but that's the point I try to establish here, for me the guitar making is an art, and when I finish one of mine it's a matter of proud, I said...I created this baby almost completely from scratch and look what is now!. When I make an ens ambling guitar as the one I posted (Warmoth one), I don't feel nothing more than the check I received. So this is not a matter of living in New York or Amish county, it's a matter of proud!

Mike Navarro
Navarro Custom
http://Guitarzonepr.com


If you found CNC product that was not correct, than it's likely that it was operator/programming error. Sorry, but a properly maintained and programmed CNC machine will do better work than you can dream of in a fraction of the time. It's a tool, Mike...come out of the dark ages and utilize it....

...and here's another jolt for you, down the road there will be new tools that improve on this one, too. Embrace technology, it's there to help you.

[Mike Navarro]

If you found CNC product that was not correct, than it's likely that it was operator/programming error. Sorry, but a properly maintained and programmed CNC machine will do better work than you can dream of in a fraction of the time. It's a tool, Mike...come out of the dark ages and utilize it....

...and here's another jolt for you, down the road there will be new tools that improve on this one, too. Embrace technology, it's there to help you.

That's the point buddy! machines, programs, people aren't perfect! in the end is the same, who or what can we blame, as I said, I see this every day so don't tell me this is very rare because I don't have enough hard disk space in my computer for the amount of that volume of photos!
And the must important point, I want to make the guitar!, me, not a machine by a "enter" press in a computer!!

[hansoloist]

" As a result, they cost more and were less "perfect" than had we used set type. "

The same applies to slotting a fretboard...wouldn't you want it as perfect as possible, regardless of means?

Abso-effin-lutely. I don't care if my guitar is made by hand (whatever that means), by CNC, by a team of highly skilled cyborgs, or manipulated at the molecular level from a barcalounger into a six-string by nanobots. So long as the end result is a guitar that sounds good and plays well I'm happy. Methinks the guys shunning new technologies and clinging to the implements of old are the same ones who like to boast about roughing it 10 miles to and from gradeschool every morning uphill both ways in eleven feet of snow barefoot...and were so poor that if they didn't wake up in the morning with an erection, they had nothing to play with all day long. ;)

peace
-jeff

[John Hurtt]

That's the point buddy! machines, programs, people aren't perfect! in the end is the same, who or what can we blame, as I said, I see this every day so don't tell me this is very rare because I don't have enough hard disk space in my computer for the amount of that volume of photos!
And the must important point, I want to make the guitar!, me, not a machine by a "enter" press in a computer!!

Mike,

The skill is how the luthier uses the tool, not the tool itself. I'm guessing you can make a new bone nut for a guitar. You are going to use a specific set of files and probably something to polish it as well when you are done shaping the nut. A person that is skilled in using those tools in the way they were designed will make a perfect bone nut. Now, give those tools to someone not as skilled, or doesn't care to learn to properly use them and the result will not be nearly as good.

A CNC is just a fancier tool. You have to put in the time to learn to use it correctly, and the rewards are huge. But, if you don't know how to use it... or don't care to use it...or aren't skilled or smart enough to learn to use it properly and the result will not be so great.

Last thought, if you don't have enough space on your hard drive to put tens of thousands of high resolution pictures on it than you need to upgrade, my friend. Plus, ever do a search of all the non-CNC quality issues you can find out on the net. Plenty of those...plenty of those.

[Mike Navarro]

John, you still don't get it, I tried! just don't get this to personal, it's just another opinion in the thread!

[John Page]

Geez… this is turning into a real pissing contest, eh? Why can’t people just accept that there are different ways of doing things, and preferences on how to do them? What’s next? Starting a post on “What’s you favorite color?” and then have tons of postings about how stupid people are that like Blue… “The only reason someone would like Blue is that there an idiot. Maybe when they can afford it, or learn how to appreciate it, they’ll realize what effin’ idiots they are! Red is the only color… period!”

This post started to hear about how different builders build and why, not why one is better than the other. Most of the best builders I know in this business use CNCs, and they make brilliant guitars. Many of them are my friends and I have a great respect for them and their quality of product. But as for me, right now at this point in my life, I like to build by hand, as do others that have posted here. But because of that we have to hear that we need to open up to technology, pay our own way to Nirvana, blah, blah, blah? I built my own home and shop too, by myself, with the exception of having a few friends come over from time to time to help my lift framed walls, etc. Does that make me an idiot for not buying a home and shop that were already built, or hiring a contractor to do it? By much of the reasoning that is being posted here in this thread that would indeed be the case.

It’s a shame that our differences can’t just be a way to learn from each other.

[John Hurtt]

John, you still don't get it, I tried! just don't get this to personal, it's just another opinion in the thread!

Mike, not personal at all. And you're right, I just don't see your point. But, it appears that you're not seeing mine either. No biggie...:BEER

[John Hurtt]

Geez… this is turning into a real pissing contest, eh? Why can’t people just accept that there are different ways of doing things, and preferences on how to do them? What’s next? Starting a post on “What’s you favorite color?” and then have tons of postings about how stupid people are that like Blue… “The only reason someone would like Blue is that there an idiot. Maybe when they can afford it, or learn how to appreciate it, they’ll realize what effin’ idiots they are! Red is the only color… period!”

This post started to hear about how different builders build and why, not why one is better than the other. Most of the best builders I know in this business use CNCs, and they make brilliant guitars. Many of them are my friends and I have a great respect for them and their quality of product. But as for me, right now at this point in my life, I like to build by hand, as do others that have posted here. But because of that we have to hear that we need to open up to technology, pay our own way to Nirvana, blah, blah, blah? I built my own home and shop too, by myself, with the exception of having a few friends come over from time to time to help my lift framed walls, etc. Does that make me an idiot for not buying a home and shop that were already built, or hiring a contractor to do it? By much of the reasoning that is being posted here in this thread that would indeed be the case.

It’s a shame that our differences can’t just be a way to learn from each other.

John,

Why the anger? As I said in post #145, if a luthier wants to do it by hand, than it's cool. I've stated my point, you've stated yours. No reason to get all bent out of shape over it. Enjoy the weekend coming up!

[Dana Olsen]

We can all probably learn things from each other and from posts on TGP, even on this thread - we just might hit a little rough water on the way to our learning.

Blue IS the best color, BTW, or maybe Red. (GRIN -it's a JOKE) I hear what you're saying, John. Typing isn't always as smooth a way of having a group conversation as sitting around yakking - I pass most of the misunderstandings off to the difficulty of typing ones thoughts over speaking them.

Maybe that's just me though.

Red is best, thanks, Dana O.

[John Page]

John,
No anger here. Just my opinion on reading the last couple of pages.

You have a good weekend as well!

Dana,
My eyes are blue, but with enough Tequila I can make them red as well!
Cheers!

[Mike Navarro]

Hey guy's, in this NAMM I'm out for personal reasons, but for sure, I will be in the next one and then let's get a drink together!! I paid the first round!!


PS John Page, verify your web address, something is wrong, I couldn't open it!

[Glenn Brown]

I can't explain why it is but there is something very sexy (for lack of a better word) about the concept of a luthier creating an instrument by hand using tools and sweat, whereas the idea of a machine cutting shapes via a CAD program creates a more sterile, less personal impression.

Personally, I understand that the CNC is just a tool and that numerous tasks remain that are done by hand following the roughing out process. I understand that a CNC machine does not make guitars a la "The Jetsons," where you pop in a wood blank, hit a button and presto! Out comes a guitar ready to be wired. I get it and would not base an order on whether or not a CNC is used in the process.

But I wouldn't trade anything for the experience of seeing my luthier cut out the wood for my guitar after laying the template atop the board and gluing up everything. Again, I don't believe it made my guitar "better" than had it been shaped by a CNC. But I think it's the romantic appeal of the old-world approach that captivates the attention of people and they want to justify their preferences by "better than/worse than" arguments which don't actually hold water. Some handmade guitars blow in terms of quality and playability; some mass-produced or CNC-built instruments play effortlessly and sound like angels singing. Don't justify; just find the luthier/builder who will utilize the technique you prefer.

[John Hurtt]

Hey guy's, in this NAMM I'm out for personal reasons, but for sure, I will be in the next one and then let's get a drink together!! I paid the first round!!


PS John Page, verify your web address, something is wrong, I couldn't open it!


Ha! I'm in, and the second is on me.

[DamianP]

I think there is a danger inherent in discussions of this type, in that some people might read about the "superiority of accuracy and repeatability" of a cnc machined guitar and believe that this will somehow translate into a demonstrably superior instrument.

It bears repeating, that the means of construction bears little relation to the quality, tone or perfomance of an instrument in any way.

Damian.

[Kingbeegtrs]

If you found CNC product that was not correct, than it's likely that it was operator/programming error. Sorry, but a properly maintained and programmed CNC machine will do better work than you can dream of in a fraction of the time. It's a tool, Mike...come out of the dark ages and utilize it....

...and here's another jolt for you, down the road there will be new tools that improve on this one, too. Embrace technology, it's there to help you.

tools are worthlss in the hands of unskilled users. A CNC in the hands of a skilled luthier who has honed his skills with the CNC is going to produce more consistent guitars at a much quicker rate than a skilled luthier doing it by hand. It's kind of like this statement in regards to Football - a good big man is going to out perform a good little man.

John Hurtt has hit the nail on the head here. I don't see any justification to argue with this point.

[eric102673]

Man, this thread's still alive and kicking?!? wow.

-e.

[dr.morton]

Some threads get better over time...like red wine.
Some don't!

[Brett Faust]

This thread is like having a debate over Rembrants' brush instead of his paintings.

The tools do not matter as much as mastery of technique ,design and good materials.
Along the path to "perfection" use whatever tools get you closer to your goals.

Enjoy the ride and take the time to smell the rosewoods along the way.

[Mike Navarro]

It's a shame and bad luck that Leonardo da Vinci didn't make the invention of the CNC technology, you know how great will be (more from the art experts and collectors) the privilege to have 25,000 Mona Lisa around the world made by the same artist, or I should say machine? I'm confuse!!, Well thanks god I can find that painting in Marshall's!, by the way, tomorrow I Will call the artist who made the Pablo Casals painting I have in my office to let him know he's wasting time using a traditional brush when we have the technologies of the CNC!

[paintguy]

Wow!!!! I'm exausted reading this!!!:messedup:horse:argue
Funny how these threads go sometimes.



On another note, I was just wondering what you luthiers and players thought, what's better, nitro, poly or urethane? :huh:dunno:D















Just kidding!!!!!

[Kingbeegtrs]

Man, this thread's still alive and kicking?!? wow.

-e.


in the time we've spent here we could have bade 10000 guitars with a CNC...or two by hand.

I used to be one of those guys who insisted that Film cameras were better than digital. I had a Mamiya medium format, light meter, lenses, the whole shebang. I spent a ton of money and time buying film, taking film to be processed, paying for prints, etc...

Then I went and bought a Canon SLR with a macro lens. If you don't know about macro photography I will explain it QUICKLY - there is a mathmatical formula that you use to calculate your aperature/shutterspeed in relation to how far away you are from the subject. Guess what? My digital macro lens does all of that for me and I don't have to pay for prints, scan negatives, etc... I said to myself..."why in the hell didn't I get one of these earlier". Folks, do yourselves a favor and see the light...and some of my photography - done with one of those "inferior" digital cameras.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/lavarkadoz/pigfly.jpg

or if you aren't into the artsy-fartsy thing check this out...the turtle on the top uses a CNC

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/lavarkadoz/turtlebone.jpg

[paintguy]

in the time we've spent here we could have bade 10000 guitars with a CNC...or two by hand.

But which one's would be better?;):D

[Kingbeegtrs]

But which one's would be better?;):D

here we go again. how about that turtle? eh?

[Mike Navarro]

Great!!, I decide from now to make Turtles and lizards, custom made, nitro finish, with hardshell case!!! free shipping in 48 states! :)

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonerpr.com

[John Page]

how about that turtle? eh?

The bottom one looks bored.

I don't think I'll be able to eat salad tonight either...

[Mike9]

14 pages and I don't know if it's been mentioned, but something Dean Z told me about CNC is tool sharpening and reprogramming to account for the loss of material on the cutter.

[Husky]

I don't believe for a minute that a "hand-built" guitar is better that a CNC built one, nor visa-versa (did I spell that right?). My only point was that I build "by hand" for me, that's all.

John Suhr's point about "factory" CNCs being programmed by engineers vs small company luthiers CNCs being programmed by guitar craftsman is also incredibly valid. I think John builds one of the best guitars around and quality like his makes it harder and harder for us all to keep up with. Thanks for that John... seriously. As each builder pushes for higher quality the customer/player ultimately wins.

As far as "the only luthiers who don't use CNC just can't afford one yet" - When I ran the Fender Custom Shop we had CNCs and pin routers, builders could go either way depending on their preference and the order. I still liked the hand rout (no pun intended). As I said before, for me it's the process, not just the end result. I don't think there's an argument here, just personal preferrence.

I would never question whether John and Ron love touching their wood too.

(That one's for you Saul!)

Even though John Page and I do things diferently it is only because of what we are trying to achieve. John wants to relax and enjoy his surroundings, I am still in the rat race. If I was making less than 4 guitars a week I would not use CNC, I would use pinrouters (backed up by a Laser) and I may have my fingerboard slotted by a CNC. It is all a matter of right tool for the right job and John and I are definitely on the same page (no pun intended) Quality in the end is the goal and touching your wood :drool

[Kingbeegtrs]

Great!!, I decide from now to make Turtles and lizards, custom made, nitro finish, with hardshell case!!! free shipping in 48 states! :)

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonerpr.com

don't forget about REAL tortoise shell pickguards.

[Husky]

14 pages and I don't know if it's been mentioned, but something Dean Z told me about CNC is tool sharpening and reprogramming to account for the loss of material on the cutter.

That also applies to a pin router but a bit more difficult IF you used sharpened tools, then you have to use custom pin sets to compensate. For our use we just throw out the cutters instead of sharpening:YinYang

[John Hurtt]

It's a shame and bad luck that Leonardo da Vinci didn't make the invention of the CNC technology, you know how great will be (more from the art experts and collectors) the privilege to have 25,000 Mona Lisa around the world made by the same artist, or I should say machine? I'm confuse!!, Well thanks god I can find that painting in Marshall's!, by the way, tomorrow I Will call the artist who made the Pablo Casals painting I have in my office to let him know he's wasting time using a traditional brush when we have the technologies of the CNC!

Interesting, so you feel that it is better that one person can enjoy the "perfection" of a piece of art rather than many? Keep in mind we are talking about an instrument to play, not a piece of art to hang on the wall and let the people pass by. Kind of an apples to fish comparison...

[matte]

It's a shame and bad luck that Leonardo da Vinci didn't make the invention of the CNC technology, you know how great will be (more from the art experts and collectors) the privilege to have 25,000 Mona Lisa around the world made by the same artist, or I should say machine?
i guess that you never read this. (http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/modern/The-Work-of-Art-in-the-Age-of-Mechanical-Reproduction.html)

[Kingbeegtrs]

Let's name some of the greatest guitarists of the modern era...

now, how many of them play guitars made w/ CNC vs. "all handmade"?

who made more of a name or himself...Kevin Eubanks or Jimi Hendrix

[John Hurtt]

Let's name some of the greatest guitarists of the modern era...

now, how many of them play guitars made w/ CNC vs. "all handmade"?

who made more of a name or himself...Kevin Eubanks or Jimi Hendrix

Who played what makes no difference, but it you want to go down that road you might remember that Hendrix was dead well before CNC machines were around...Plus, keep in mind even Hendrix used guitars made on a pin router, and much "hand work" was done with electrically powered equipment. Not really a good example, 'ya know?

It's just a better tool, people...it's how you use the tool that gives you the results. It's like asking which is better to cut down a tree...a penknife or a chainsaw. Both will get the tree down, but one will get there much more efficiently.

[Mike Navarro]

Interesting, so you feel that it is better that one person can enjoy the "perfection" of a piece of art rather than many? Keep in mind we are talking about an instrument to play, not a piece of art to hang on the wall and let the people pass by. Kind of an apples to fish comparison...

You got this out of context John, we have a totally different point of view about what is the meaning of a guitar, I live Surrounded of all brands of guitars to think that it's just a instrument to play, well, this definitely is the Tower of Babel!, but great, some get it, some doesn't, I'm just left the Matrix!

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[Mike Navarro]

John, I'm very curious, are you a guitar builder?

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[John Hurtt]

John, I'm very curious, are you a guitar builder?

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

Mike,

Nope....

But, I run a manufacturing operation in the semiconductor industry that has a bunch of CNC machines. We make much more intricate and precise products than anyone building guitars to much higher tolerances. I don't deny the art of handmaking a great guitar, I keep stressing it's all about who is using the equipment and the materials they choose. I am familiar with the process of building, and understand the tolerances of what hand equipment vs. CNC are on different types of material.

Look, what CNC does is allow the "grunt work" to be done much faster and with greater precision for guitar building. You can turn out bodies and necks faster and more precise, allowing for less hand work before finishing and assembly. If you are skilled and experienced enough with it, you can also do some incredible close tolerance work for binding, inlays, accessory pieces on a guitar that are normally molded from plastic or metal you can cut directly on a CNC. It still takes a master craftsman to do the final work on those pieces to turn it into a great playing and sounding instrument. Give me the body and neck off a CNC and I'll throw together a barely playable guitar at best. Give them to someone like yourself and you have a superb instrument.

But the best thing is, you can do it over...and over....and over...and it will always be right.

[Mike Navarro]

Mike,
'
Nope....

But, I run a manufacturing operation in the semiconductor industry that has a bunch of CNC machines. We make much more intricate and precise products than anyone building guitars to much higher tolerances. I don't deny the art of handmaking a great guitar, I keep stressing it's all about who is using the equipment and the materials they choose. I am familiar with the process of building, and understand the tolerances of what hand equipment vs. CNC are on different types of material.

Look, what CNC does is allow the "grunt work" to be done much faster and with greater precision for guitar building. You can turn out bodies and necks faster and more precise, allowing for less hand work before finishing and assembly. If you are skilled and experienced enough with it, you can also do some incredible close tolerance work for binding, inlays, accessory pieces on a guitar that are normally molded from plastic or metal you can cut directly on a CNC. It still takes a master craftsman to do the final work on those pieces to turn it into a great playing and sounding instrument. Give me the body and neck off a CNC and I'll throw together a barely playable guitar at best. Give them to someone like yourself and you have a superb instrument.

But the best thing is, you can do it over...and over....and over...and it will always be right.

That's why!!!!, now I get it! it's impossible you understand the concept!, no offense!

[big mike]

That's why!!!!, now I get it! it's impossible you understand the concept!, no offense!

this is the funniest thing I've read all day.

[daddyo]

I guess your opinion of CNC vs "Handcrafteed" would depend on whether you view the music or the guitar as the actual artistic achievement. You'd also have to ponder why a series of jigs and templates for use by pin and conventional routers is better of worse than a CNC. How far would you take it? How many power tools does it take to interfere with the artist/craftsman and some ephereal muse guiding his hand through the wood?

I just want the best guitar I can get for a reasonable price. I'm interested in the music, not the tool.

[David Myka]

Let's see if I can sum things up:

We can all see that ideally A=B if quality G. All things considered B is superior to A for producing facsimiles of G but B cannot be greater than A since it takes a lot of A to make really great G.

A+B is superior to B, and A is superior to B-A. Thus making A an essential ingredient to G. So A=B and B=A insofar as there is sufficient A. And so A is superior to B unless B=A.

Where the argument goes awry is when things derail into opinionated forms of A>B and B>A when we all know that it really comes down to S and T to make great M from G.

~D

[Ron Thorn]

A guitar isn't JUST art.
It's also a machine, a simple one but it's a machine. It has moving parts, it requires precise tolerances to function properly, and if it just so happens to "look" good, which is entirely subjective, it might be considered art to some.

One can build a beautify, artsy, guitar all day long by hand or by CNC and call themselves an "Artist"...but if it's functionality is compromised due to lack of accuracy, then it becomes more about the look and less about the fact that it is a machine which ultimately should be used as a tool. How well that machine works really should be more important, sometimes it isn't, but really should be more important to the builder and the player.

I have never considered the CNC as a means of achieving increased production as some here are constantly bringing up.
I use it for it's accuracy and ability of holding precise tolerances, but it has also allowed me to be more creative with the guitar's aesthetics, or artistic qualities some would put it.
For example, the double offset purfling or my inlaid tops (where I recess the carve top into a pocket routed into the body with .0025 tolerance).
Neither of these details add functionality to the guitar, they are purely cosmetic and only add to the art.
However, they are also impossible to achieve "by hand" with results that I would consider artistic regardless of one's skill level. Yeah, you can do it by hand, but it's going to look sloppy. I'm not really a fan of sloppy art.

Ron

[Mike Navarro]

I guess your opinion of CNC vs "Handcrafteed" would depend on whether you view the music or the guitar as the actual artistic achievement. You'd also have to ponder why a series of jigs and templates for use by pin and conventional routers is better of worse than a CNC. How far would you take it? How many power tools does it take to interfere with the artist/craftsman and some ephereal muse guiding his hand through the wood?

I just want the best guitar I can get for a reasonable price. I'm interested in the music, not the tool.

You need to read all the threads I posted from the beginning and I'm sure you'll get it. Anyway, I will explain it as simple I can, I try ed to establish the essence of a guitar from my point of view, is a group of elements besides just the instrument. As I said before, I'm not talking about which one is better in terms of precision because that's debatable, I'm talking about those few guitarmaniacs who cares about the guitar history he play. There's musicians doesn't care about this matters, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in my case I do! For example as a musician I'm a Fender fan (guitars from 1962-1974), pre or earlier CBS, I lost my 1969 few years ago and now I have an Anniversary one, and in my opinion as guitar player and luthier there's no comparison, as well all my vintage point to point all tubes amps. But that's me! I compare guitars with wine, not everybody has the taste to make difference! In the beginning (23 years ago) Navarro guitars came from Warmoth CNC to totally handcraft from different reasons, but the must important one, I refuse to make Fender, Gibsons or any brand and started to designer my own stuff (the Strat alike you see in my web are old). But when you start a project making a guitar as Leo Fender or Orvil Gibson did and you see the results, is an indescribable feeling, but the only way you can feel this is if you get the Ride. I'm very meticulous in the perfection on all stages, intonation, alignment, finishing, electronics etc. The guitar doesn't leave the shop until I feel the guitar is perfect! If I don't like how it's sound, first, I try to find out if the problem comes from the body or the neck, and then I make the necessary replacement to get the goal, the best advertisement is the guitar it self, no matter how much you spend in the media!. It's very important to tell that I respect CNC builders or so, I love almost all the guitars I saw here from my colleagues, great guitars, and normally I can identify which one was made in part or complete by a CNC and I still love it, so don't get wrong in my point!

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[John Hurtt]

That's why!!!!, now I get it! it's impossible you understand the concept!, no offense!


Why is it impossible to understand the "concept"? As far as I can tell, you haven't really provided one for me "to get". You are building an instrument to use, which is a tool to make music. It can be artistic or not, but the bottom line is that it needs to be as functional as possible to make music. If you want it to be art, than if you can make the instrument closer to your vision, or make your inlays tighter with less filler than your art is better as well. Better tolerances = better instrument...

Use the best tools available to make the best guitar you can. If you don't want to use a tool or tools, that's your choice. Totally cool with me, but it limits what you can accomplish. Using a CNC machine doesn't suck all the "mojo" out of an instrument, not anymore than using a sanding block does...or a spray gun to do finish work...or files to slot the nut....etc...

[PinoyBoy]

Using a CNC machine doesn't suck all the "mojo" out of an instrument, not anymore than using a sanding block does...or a spray gun to do finish work...or files to slot the nut....etc...

Exactly.

This discussion is really silly IMO only. Machines are tools developed in order to make complex jobs easier. I don't get it how and why the "purists" out there draw the line between CNC machines and other tools that they use. If you are really a "purist", then maybe you should be cutting wood with your teeth or bare hands, smoothening the wood using your fingernails, etc.

And in the end, who cares how it's made. If it sounds good, it is good.

[David Myka]

I think for the most part people have respected each other's craft regardless of tools used. We all use a combination of technologies in the pursuit of our craft and do so to the exact precision that is required. There are so many examples of perfect work using both hand and computer guided technologies it is staggering. And some of the most beautiful and functional work that I have seen is a combination of both.

Where things have gone astray is when a builder confuses their own skill with their chosen toolset as proof of the inferiority of another's and states it as fact. This is not only false (and quite like propaganda) but it is confusing to anyone trying to learn anything in this thread about what it is we do and how we accomplish it, which was the original intent of this thread.

I have found an excellent essay that speaks very eloquently about the careful balance of tradition, technology, and artistic inspiration. Here is an excerpt:I began this essay with a statement of the need for balance between the three aspects of craft, science and art. A deficiency or a too heavy focus on any one of these will only work to the detriment of the result. By itself, craft can give us work of great technical proficiency -- finely detailed copies of the work of the past -- but it is not well prepared to deal with the element of the unknown that faces us each time we pick up a new piece of wood. Science can provide us measurements and methods of assessing the physical parameters of our materials and products, but it cannot tell us what we are striving for in the end. It wants a rational and measurable reason for each step we take, but our finest examples are there in front of us and the reasons are absent. A pure artist may have the will for great things, but without being grounded in the fertile soil of tradition and the steadying light of science, his work will at best be erratic, and at worst, floundering. A good luthier may be a fine craftsman, or have a scientific bent, or an artistic flair, but it is only when the work is also informed with the qualities of the other of these three themes that the best work is produced.The rest of the essay can be found here: http://www.cranfordpub.com/otis/reflections/on_craft_science_art.htm

~David

[Jack Briggs]

I've been on both sides in this debate. I've used CNC and I've not used CNC. Like John Page I am currently building totally analog. I do however use templates that have been CNC cut. I would do that anywhere that I could.

But one point remains: a CNC machine is a tool. Like any hand tool or powered tool, it's only as good as it's user (and programmer). CNC machines don't eliminate errors, they reduce the chance of their occurances. CNC machinery has it's tolerances as do planers, pin routers, table saws and the like. Bit push (industry term for deflection) is still a factor whether it is being manually or automatically fed. To say that a CNC is more accurate is only true when comparing that machine under the operation of an unskilled individual vs. an analog machine under operation of same. In my hands with my table saw power slotting method, my fingerboards' fret slots are as accurate as any sawn on a CNC machine. This is not to say that anyone would get the same results on my setup, though.

If I had my druthers, I'd have a small (but close tolerance) CNC laser or router to cutout headplates and inlays, probably nothing else. Like John Page (and a few others) I still enjoy guiding body blanks through the pin router with templates. I also, out of necessity, have to "nest" bodies out of a board to minimize waste and make the best of the material available - something that usually isn't done when cutting bodies on a CNC machine. Blanks are usually cut square and bolted to the spoilboard or held down with clamps. This requires an oversized blank - something I don't need or want to do with hand guided shaping.

There is no magic "mojo" removed by CNC machining. It's just down to personal preference on my part to work them largely by hand. YMMV.



Cheers,

[Husky]

Nothing wrong with using Pinrouters and shaping necks with a rasp file or shapers. Especially if you like close calls with danger!

However, except for accuracy there is NO difference in the process of using a CNC or a pinrouter. Everything gets cut the same way and needs the same amount of hand work after it is cut. One main difference is that CNC are "capable" of doing some operations with more accuracy than possible by hand. That doesnt mean it cant loose that accuracy somewhere else in the process

[Kingbeegtrs]

this thread reminds me of


http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb71/nekozet/energizer.jpg

[2leod]

CNC -

it's the new SMD...

[Vince]

When I first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, I decided to give CNC machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, I though I'd be true to my craft. I decided I should build my own... by hand. In that time, I have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe I made from a 200 year old potter's wheel I found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's I'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but I was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon I'd found I was able to pull it off. The only thing I really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator I made, but I'll have to wait until March for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and I think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but I have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like I'm cheating.

;)

[Kingbeegtrs]

when i first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, i decided to give cnc machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, i though i'd be true to my craft. I decided i should build my own... By hand. In that time, i have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe i made from a 200 year old potter's wheel i found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's i'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but i was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon i'd found i was able to pull it off. The only thing i really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator i made, but i'll have to wait until march for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and i think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but i have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like i'm cheating.

;)


now that's my kind of post - lmfao

[Jack Briggs]

When I first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, I decided to give CNC machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, I though I'd be true to my craft. I decided I should build my own... by hand. In that time, I have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe I made from a 200 year old potter's wheel I found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's I'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but I was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon I'd found I was able to pull it off. The only thing I really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator I made, but I'll have to wait until March for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and I think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but I have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like I'm cheating.

;)


Can we please consider these the final words on the subject????:banana



Cheers,

[hansoloist]

When I first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, I decided to give CNC machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, I though I'd be true to my craft. I decided I should build my own... by hand. In that time, I have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe I made from a 200 year old potter's wheel I found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's I'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but I was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon I'd found I was able to pull it off. The only thing I really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator I made, but I'll have to wait until March for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and I think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but I have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like I'm cheating.

;)

Funniest thing I've read on TGP or anywhere else in a long time. Vince, you write extremely well.

peace
-jeff

[Dave Orban]

when i first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, i decided to give cnc machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, i though i'd be true to my craft. I decided i should build my own... By hand. In that time, i have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe i made from a 200 year old potter's wheel i found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's i'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but i was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon i'd found i was able to pull it off. The only thing i really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator i made, but i'll have to wait until march for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and i think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but i have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like i'm cheating.

;)
lol!

[atquinn]

:rotflmao

-Austin

[Mike Navarro]

This thread has the wrong title, I think TIC TAC TOE should be the correct one!!

[Marty s Horne]

I, like others here, am concerned with the final result rather than how it was achieved. My 2 McNaught guitars feel better to me than anything I've played in 45 years of guitar playing. I don't know if the fact David hand builds every McNaught himself without a CNC machine is the reason for this and don't much care. I'm just extremely grateful that he builds my favorite guitars.

[Kingbeegtrs]

This thread has the wrong title, I think TIC TAC TOE should be the correct one!!

yes. so could everyone just abandon the ship and agree to disagree?

[Mike Navarro]

I guarantee you something Kingbee, this thread it'll be here forever!!! :):crazy

Mike Navarro
http://Guitarzonepr.com

[Brett Faust]

Vince ,did The Professor or Mcgyver provide any help?
I hear they can do wonders with Coconuts these days.http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Vince]

Glad you fellas enjoyed my little attempt at levity.

My philosophy on the tools I use is pretty simple... I try to employ the one that best addresses the needs of the job at hand. We have everything from small surgical tools to large machines and we use them all. That said though, there's no doubt that the biggest tool in our shop will always be me.

[Jon Silberman]

I knew it was a good idea to have dropped out earlier. The ridiculously unpersuasive reducto ad absurdum/all or nothing arguments have actually increased.

[Ron Thorn]

Thanks for stopping back in.

[Ian Anderson]

Just ignore anyone who does not either make their guitars from lumber, OR is a not a CNC machinist and it's a good thread.

[Dana Olsen]

Glad you fellas enjoyed my little attempt at levity.

My philosophy on the tools I use is pretty simple... I try to employ the one that best addresses the needs of the job at hand. We have everything from small surgical tools to large machines and we use them all. That said though, there's no doubt that the biggest tool in our shop will always be me.Exactly what I tell my wife. (GRIN)

Sincerely, great post Vince.

Thanks, Dana O.

[Kingbeegtrs]

Exactly what I tell my wife. (GRIN)

Sincerely, great post Vince.

Thanks, Dana O.


so you admit that you're a tool?


jussssssst kidding!:roll

[Dana Olsen]

so you admit that you're a tool?


jussssssst kidding!:rollI'm not sure there's ever been a question about it (GRIN).

Dana

[57special]

Funniest thing I've read on TGP or anywhere else in a long time. Vince, you write extremely well.


peace
-jeff

But it would be far funnier if he didn't have to use a computer to construct his paragraph. Just think of the laughs if he used foolscap and a fountain pen!

[Mark Robinson]

When I first read some of the posts in this thread three and a half years ago, I decided to give CNC machining a shot. But, being influenced by so many of the views here, I though I'd be true to my craft. I decided I should build my own... by hand. In that time, I have fabricated each and every metal part using only a small jewelers file or the metal lathe I made from a 200 year old potter's wheel I found. Drawing the wire (to wind the motor and for other connections) through my hand-made wire dies was a bit of a bitch, but not nearly as tough as mining the ore to make the alloys for it or cutting and draining the rubber tree's I'd planted to have raw materials to make some rubber washers the machine needs. The computer controller was a bit tough too, but I was able to hand draw the layouts for the microprocessors pretty well and using some carbon paper and a bit of silicon I'd found I was able to pull it off. The only thing I really have left is finishing up the blades for the mindmill that will turn the generator I made, but I'll have to wait until March for enough wind to run the machine.

All in all, it came out great and I think the new machine will make a nice addition to all the rest of the hundreds of tools we have in the shop, but I have to admit that there is still a part of me that will feel like I'm cheating.

;)

Are you now or have you ever been,,,,,,,, married to, or dating Martha Stewart? Classic Post!

[Kingbeegtrs]

But it would be far funnier if he didn't have to use a computer to construct his paragraph. Just think of the laughs if he used foolscap and a fountain pen!


bravo

I'm starting to see that even sarcasm trumps doing it the hard way.

[John Hurtt]

I knew it was a good idea to have dropped out earlier. The ridiculously unpersuasive reducto ad absurdum/all or nothing arguments have actually increased.

Yet you felt the need to add this? :dunno

[hansoloist]

Yet you felt the need to add this? :dunno

You have to understand something: Jon has an extremely high IQ. In fact, it's so insanely high he says he'd rather not say how ridiculously high it is because it'd seem like bragging, given how incomparably high his massively high IQ is. As mere mortals we really can't expect to fathom the motives of a dude with an IQ as ludicrously high as his. ;)

peace
-jeff

[John Hurtt]

You have to understand something: Jon has an extremely high IQ. In fact, it's so insanely high he says he'd rather not say how ridiculously high it is because it'd seem like bragging, given how incomparably high his massively high IQ is. As mere mortals we really can't expect to fathom the motives of a dude with an IQ as ludicrously high as his. ;)

peace
-jeff


Ah, now I see! Thanks Jeff! :AOK:roll