CNC vs. all handmade

[tms13pin]

So, I'm curious: who uses a CNC and who hand-builds the whole
way through. And if a CNC is used, for how much of the build
is it used (just body? neck? carves?).

I'm not interested in a discussion over which is better, I have
no problem with machines. I'm just curious about many of the
"boutique" builders and what they do. I'd also think it'd be
interesting if some of the builders would chime in and say why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better,
worse, the same, etc. since they've done so. I'm more
interested in the builders viewpoint here, not the buyers, as
I don't want to start an opinion war. I'm sure output is higher
with the CNC. How does it impact customization, etc. for you?
Does that really matter (may not be part of your business plan)?
How do you keep the quality up vs. Fender and Gibson....
major automation but very big names.

For instance, Driskill does everything by hand. PRS uses CNCs
for things (how much, I'm not sure), Brian Moore CNC's the
bodies (at least), blah blah. I don't really know about
Suhr, Anderson, McInturff, Lentz, etc. Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders
(if you accept them) done completely by hand?

Lots of questions. Just trying to understand the small market
luthier industry a bit more. It's really been interesting since I
joined TGP to just lurk and see what players gush over, etc., and
I've learned about a lot of guitar (and amp) builders that I never
knew existed.

Thanks in advance for your comments and perspectives on this.

--Tom

[niersbach]

Hey Tom

ummm I think you were misinformed about Driskill as he does in fact use CNC machines. Off the top of my head, McNaughts are the only ones I know of that are strictly done all by hand, no cnc work anywhere on the guitar.

I, also like you, could care less if it was made by hand or by machine as I think it has very little to do with the quality of the instrument in question, if anything the CNC'd machine would be a better build as its much more precise. I think it has a lot more to do with the builder in question and his attention to detail than anything else. More his love for building instruments is what adds the mojo to the 6 string monsters.

[Ron Thorn]

I'm game.

First off, there is no shop, large or small, that is entirely CNC. It does not exist. I think most individuals would be surprised by what a guitar component looks like when it comes off a CNC. It is no where near complete, there is still plenty of hand sanding, fitting, etc.

Here's a break down of what I do with the CNC and "by hand".

CNC:
Fretboards - you asked "why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better". The fretboard is so brutally important that it is ideal for CNC accuracy. I perimeter, slot, radius, and rout for inlays all in one set-up on the CNC. Than insures spot-on fret slot placement (VERY important to the quality of the guitar), consistent radii including compound radiusing, and inlays that are very tight and free of sloppy filler/gaps.
Total time on the CNC: 20 minutes

Necks - Once the blank has been bandsawn ("by hand") to an oversized shape the CNC will machine the neck carve, perimeter the neck and heel, shape the headstock, drill for tuners, rout for truss rod and rout for logo & purfling. This is done through 6 different set-ups.
Total time on the CNC: 1 hour, 45 minutes.

Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours

Inlays - Production inlays, such as my Firesuns and "T" logo, are cut on the CNC for a perfect fit into the routes on the fretboard and headstock. I also "rip" my purfling strips on the CNC too.
Total time for one guitar's worth: 15 minutes

Components - I machine my own 1-pc. brass tremolos, pickup covers and rings, knobs, back plates, truss rod covers, and jack plates.
Total time worth: Approx: 10 hours.
Granted, all of these parts are "custom" for my guitars exclusively. I could purchase all of these parts from guitar supply shops but prefer to make my own.

None of the above times include any programming, set-up or material preparation...all of which are done "by hand".

_____________________

"By hand"
This term, I assume, includes feeding or pushing the component through a power tool such as a planer, jointer, drum sander, bandsaw etc.

Fretboards:
Pre CNC: The wood is bandsawn to an oversize thickness and feed through a drum sander to flatten.

Post CNC - The fretboard needs to:
Have the side dots drilled and glued in.
Inlays and purfling glued in.
Glue the board to the neck blank.
Level and true the board.
Fret and fretdress.
Total time "by hand": 13 hours for the above operations. My fret preparation (cutting to length, nipping the tang, grinding the tang), fret installation and dress is a total of 6 hours alone...no CNC for any of those operations.

Necks:
Pre CNC:
The wood is milled and rough cut to shape, using tracing templates, on a table saw and bandsaw before it gets to the CNC.
Post CNC:
Install the truss rod and filler strip,
blend the neck into the fretboard,
inlay logo and purfling,
final shape the neck carve to spec using rasps, spindle sanders and lots of elbow grease sanding then sanding some more,
gluing the neck into the body.
Total time "by hand": 8-10 hours easily.

Body:
Pre CNC:
Split top, joint edges, bookmatch glue together, sand to thickness.
Mill/sand body to thickness.
Locate and glue top to body spread then sand and drill locating hole for the CNC.
Post CNC:
Inlay purfling.
Drill for controls, side jack, wiring channels.
Radius back edge on router table.
SAND from 150 grit to 320/400
Total time "by hand": 10-15 hours depending on the wood species.

Paint:
Prep, mask off, stain, seal, color, top coat, lots of sanding in between, lots of sanding after, buffing...the list goes on. No CNC for these ops.
Total time "by hand": 28 hours if all goes right the first time...it never does.

Assembly:
Installation of components (tuners, pickups, bridge, etc), wiring, cutting the nut, set up.
Total time "by hand": 6-8 hours

The above is only visually productive acts, not including ordering wood and components, e-mails, shipping, and just plain running the business.

_______

So, if we deduct the custom components and use off the shelf bridges, pickup rings, etc. The average total time is:
CNC: 5 hours, 20 minutes.
"By hand": 69 hours, 30 minutes.

I consider my shop to be fairly state of the art, I have a large HAAS CNC for the woodwork, and 2 smaller CNCs for the pearl inlay work. The only additional automated CNC-type machinery would be a Plek and a robotic buffer. I could see that only reducing the "by hand" total by a couple/few hours at most.

Not mentioned would be a custom one-off inlay that I, or my father, would do "by hand" with a jeweler's saw and a mini router. The time spent on that could be from 45 minutes to 100s of hours depending on the design.


However small in comparison those 5 hours, 20 minutes seem...they are VERY important to the outcome of the guitar. Accuracy and consistancy are unmatched. There are features, such as my double offset purfling, that just can't physically be done by hand. Fretslots accurate to within .0005" of an inch...heck, the wood will expand or contract more than that by the time I turn the lights off in the shop at the end of the day...but it's good to know they are as accurate as can be.
Inlays that are gap free and clean are important to me. I'm not a fan of filler and I don't want that to be a part of my product. Even with hand cut and routed inlays, I feel we are one of the best at making them tight and clean.

Can I build a guitar with out a CNC, sure.
WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.
There you have one take on it from a CNC builder.

Ron Thorn
www.thornguitars.com

"Powered by HAAS...and loving it :) "

[Two-Octave]

There you go.

Ron himself posted here.Bitchin'. That cat makes great guitars.:dude

[niersbach]

WOW!!! Ron thanks a bunch for breaking down the CNC - Hand process for us. THat is the first time I have ever seen it all spelled out as to exactly what is done by the CNC vice hand. I just cant imagine trying to build all the jigs and what not to do it all by hand with routers and such and how on earth it could be accurate.

[eric102673]

Holy crap!

First of all, that's a hell of a post Ron. It puts the whole argument into perspective. Having toured through Fender, including the Custom Shop and the regular shop floor, as well as a few tours through PRS, you learn what Ron just said works on a bigger scale. The CNCs run non-stop in those places, but they don't have very many. What really speeds those places along is the literally dozens and dozens of other workers doing all the hand work as mentioned above, just assembly line style. One guy does one grit sanding all day. One guy does radius sanding for the fretboard all day, etc. That's how they get so many guitars out. The CNC just makes the parts fit better and with less waste and trial fittings.

The big difference in operations of the small vs. big builder, is the small guy starts with talking to the customer about what he wants and goes from wood selection to final polish of the instrument before it goes in the case, where the big guys end up with each person being really good at one given task but it never has the benefits from the one one one approach. You also end up with looser tolerances overall and customization is minimal to none.

Second of all, take that hourly estimate Ron gives and divide it into the base price of one of Ron's Artisan Master guitars (the most expensive). The dude's making less than $50 an hour, and that doesn't include any material costs or company overhead at all. I figure if you take those into account, the guy's lucky if he's making $20. That's nuts.
It's also why I think Ron's guitars are a steal, but it really makes you appreciate any small builder. None of these small guys are getting rich building guitars, no matter how they do it. They do it because they love it.

I find it inspiring.

-e.

[tms13pin]

Ron--

Thanks a heap for the info. This is exactly the kind of info I
was interested in hearing about from a builder. These are
things many of us do not think about while waiting for our
axes to be built, all of the steps and stages of the process,
what gets done where, etc., and especially, adding all of this
to the fact that there are other's axes in the queue as well!

BTW, you make gorgeous guitars, I've seen some beauties
on this forum!

Thanks again.

--Tom

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Ron Thorn
Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours

Ron, not doubting you, just curious. On my last tour of the PRS factory, I saw their CNC carve a body from a block of wood. It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours. That carver moved so fast, with chips and sawdust flying out all over the place, it was amazing, really. We could see the whole process because the panels around the body were either glass or some sort of plexiglass.

Is the difference in time between PRS's body carving and yours a function of PRS simply have millions more dollars to spend on the latest robotics or are other factors involved?

[Gadowguitars]

We just purchased our first CNC machine....also a HAAS.....We have been using an early seventies Rockwell Pin router.

The reasons for us to purchase a CNC:

-Accuracy...on the pin router we use plexi glass templates which have bit of wear, plus they just aren't perfect....we want everything to line up and fit perfect.
-Waste...currently we are building 6 guitars a week...when you are building the necks and body completely by hand like we are you lose one every 2 weeks do to some misfortune.
-I want my employees to focus on the details...fretwork,sanding, finishing, fretboard radiusing, set up.

Right now we are just using the CNC machine to cut all of the cavities..( neck pockets, pickup cavaties, control cavaties)....we are also cutting the bodies out...but they go back on the pin router for the carves....We are also cutting the neck profile, truss rod channel, and rough cutting the back carve also....but then we have to finish the neck with our good ole spoke shavers and rasps.

Currently we have a back log of about 125 guitars....so we felt that purchasing a CNC will help us keep a grip on quality control as we continue to grow.

[John C]

Personally, I've never been under the impression that a CNC was a bad thing; it is just a tool to do some early or mid-level work. I think maybe there is the perception that guitars pop out of these things ready for final assembly and painting.

I'm sure the builders on Tom's original list who use CNCs do so much like Ron's excellent breakdown of hand vs CNC work - Anderson, Suhr, and Grosh all use CNCs in this manner but rely on their artisans for the hand finishing work. It's getting easier to say who doesn't use CNC than who does. I'm not sure about Lentz, but Terry McInturff was still using a duplicarver last I heard and hadn't moved to CNC.

Of course G&L just very publically announce they bought CNC routers, and I believe I saw somewhere that James Tyler just got his first CNC this year as well.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by tms13pin
Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders (if you accept them) done completely by hand?
--Tom

Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but we use a CNC as much as we possibly can. We don't own one (yet), but we have access to two of them and I have a feeling that we'll own one of our own before too much longer.

I don't think of us as a custom shop at all and it's certainly not what we set out to be. We do take some custom orders, but my preference is for us to build guitars to our specs and either sell them either once they're well underway or even better, after they're complete.

[AJ Love]

Of the boutique bass makers, the only (major) ones I know about that are completely hand-made are Elrick and Eshenbaugh...

As a guitar player of extremely picky tastes, it doesn't matter to me if a neck is farmed out to another solar system, as long as it plays flawlessly

I was thinking the other day, a few of the guitar makers that we'll all be flipping out about 15 years from now will be built by people we've not yet heard of, or who have just begun being apprentices somewhere today

we're in the golden age of guitar making...

I apologize if I got a little off-topic there

[sanhozay]

Originally posted by AJ Love
we're in the golden age of guitar making...

Again.

[george4908]

Ron Thorn wrote:
>>Can I build a guitar without a CNC, sure. WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.<<

That, right there, answers the CNC question for me about as definitively as possible.

Eric wrote:
>>I figure if you take those into account, the guy's lucky if he's making $20.

Hey, don't remind him!

Jon wrote:
>>It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours.

Jon, I was just on a tour and asked that very question. "About 20 minutes" was the answer for the bodies. The necks take longer because there are multiple setups and passes.

The PRS CNC machines automatically exchange router heads on the fly, so they are able to do an extraordinary amount of work in one pass. I don't know if the CNC's at other shops have that capability. If not, it would slow things down quite a bit, I'd imagine.

[Ron Thorn]

Originally posted by Jon Silberman
It was scary how fast the process went, my memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking under a few minutes, not 3 hours.

Jon,
Under a few minutes is probably pushing it. I know PRS' spindle speen is 10K rpm, mine is a little less so my feed rate is slightly lower. I have a few more operations to do such as top and side purfling. There is probably three main reasons I'm slower:
1 - Every body is different. It's not a case of load the body and walk away with mine. I'm currently up to 29 rear cavities, so I load the appropriate one and once it's finished I load the next program. Pickup combos, different body thicknesses, etc.

2 - I don't push the machine very hard. It takes 45 minutes to do the carve top. I could probably push it to 30 minutes, but risk blowing out some maple...not worth it. I haven't had to run a body through the bandsaw before it hits the dumpster yet, knock on wood.
Master Builder Red Dave from the Custom Shop always busts my chops when he sees me running a body. I'll take 4 passes around the perimeter and a final clean-up pass...at Fender: 1 pass, done.

3 - I'm still chicken-sh*t. When you find just the right top for the customer, that he selected, the last thing you want to do is rout for a humbucker where a P-90 should be. I'm standing in front of the CNC the whole time it's running making sure everything is "cool". My heart still races a bit when a body is running...I'm not afraid to admit it. 20hp can do a lot of damage to wood ;) .

PRS needs to pump out as many as possible per day. They've probably refined their programs to optimize every second of run time, they need to. I'll take it a little slower just to be safe.

Ron

[Leonc]

I'm here to tell you brothers and sisters that all those evil computerized, whizzing and whirring machines are the Devil's tools!! Throw a bunch of wood, store-bought plastic, screws and paint in one end and out pops a completed, machine-made guitar on the other end!!! What kind of evil-black witchery could concieve of such a foul and inhuman plot ? It's Satan's work I tell ye! http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/devil.gif

No, give me a hand-made guitar! You'll sleep much better knowing that a trained luthier used his olden slide rule and fingernails to carve the neck and slot the fretboard! And that our luthier hauled only the purest sand in a wheelbarrow up from the shores of Gichegoomee for the hand-made sandpaper that was employed. And that he himself slaughtered the horses whose hoofs were used to make the glue and that he forged and milled all the screws himself to exacting detail and that he used his very own, hand-made chemical plant to produce the plastic and the injection molds used to create the knobs, pickup rings and control cavity covers. This kind of quality cannot be matched by an eeevyul machine, conceived in the mind of Satan's goat-boy, Bill Gates!

:angel

[tms13pin]

Originally posted by Jim Soloway
Sorry to disappoint you Tom, but we use a CNC as much as we possibly can. We don't own one (yet), but we have access to two of them and I have a feeling that we'll own one of our own before too much longer.



Not a disappointment at all. As I stated in my original post,
I'm not against CNCs (or any machines that help get quality
work done more efficiently). I was just curious about the
extent to which they're used by various folks in the process.
You make beautiful guitars. I'd love to have a Swan made for
me someday (as soon as I can scrape up the bucks!).

--Tom

[Diablo]

I don't think I would ever want to do this without a CNC. Not for time savings at all but for its accuracy and possibilities that it provides. I have a HUGE Haas. My upper horn was ½” longer so I had to go with a really big one. $109K just for the basic tool. It took five years to pay for. It sits a lot of the time since I do so much handwork. I named it Slacker for this reason. When it is doing something though, there is nothing else like it. Nothing comes off of it ready to go without a lot of sanding or, in the case of metal, buffing and plating. Here’s kind of what I do with each thing.

Fretboards- cut locating holes on the bottom, vacuum it to the next fixture, cut perimeter and arch with a ¾” Ball endmill. Time: 40 minutes.

Fretslots- .020” endmill cuts fretslots. Tiny little thing which breaks easily if pushed too hard. Time: about 38 minutes.

Inlay- Totally depends on inlays. Almost all of them are custom in some way. Time: anywhere from a few minutes with simple dots to days with more elaborate inlays. One took about 12 hours just to cut the pearl and untold hours to program. The wolf guitars took an unbelievable amount of time to program and cut. I couldn’t even estimate how long they took. We’ll just say about 4 hours for a mid range difficult inlay which is all ready programmed and only has to be cut and inlaid.

Necks- rough cut to approximate size and then put on Haas. It takes 3 fixtures and a ton of steps with all kinds of tools to cut necks. Total time: about 1:30 hours I guess.

Bodies- three fixtures and some off an on back into the machine after gluing stuff . Time: about 3:30 hours total machining time.

Metal parts- I make my own pickup rings, stop tails, and trems. This is like getting a sex change to switch from wood to metal. Every little spec of wood and dust has to be cleaned out and the machine wiped down. Then coolant has to go in it and be all hooked up and the air disconnected. I made vise jaws for everything. There are about 16 or so sets of vise jaws to cut different metal parts. Big hassle! Each one has to be put in and then located with dial indicators. Trems- time about 4 hours probably. I don’t even know on the other stuff but it’s not quick.

Components- knobs and back plates- probably about 20 minutes machining time.

Hand work:

Fretboards- tons of sanding and stuff after tweezers put the inlays in. Lots of sanding and buffing of the fretboards. Before going into the Haas, they are run through a widebelt sander to roughly size them. Then the inlays go in. The frets are stainless steel and both epoxied and pressed into the fretboard. They are then clamped up in aluminum press plates with the radius machined into the plate. This is clamped up and let to cure for about 10 hours. Then the fretboard is glued onto the neck using epoxy. Again the plates clamp this on and it cures. No moisture is ever introduced to the neck since epoxy is used. That all takes about 4-6 hours of actual work and lots of curing time.

The neck is then sanded to shape as it is cut way oversized by the CNC. I make my own carbon fiber and it has to be put in. Then the side dots are drilled and installed and the tuner holes are drilled with a drill jig. Then the neck goes back into the CNC for the tongue angle. Lots of handwork on the necks! Total hand time on necks: 10-15 hours including the making of carbon fiber and cutting it. Probably way more time if I consider that.
Curing the UV finish: This only takes about 10 minutes total in the CNC UV booth.

Body:
Lots of sanding and looking at it. Taking pictures, photoshoping it to find stuff, etc. Resawing it and stickering it in front of fans to get it good and dry. Running it through the sander and gluing it onto the CNC’d parts. Vacuum bagging it to dry, etc.
When it comes off of the CNC, it has tearout and is pretty rough. Hours of sanding and perfecting the parts. Then fitting the neck. Total body time: 10-20 hours at least. That’s probably extremely conservative.

Components: hours of buffing and cleaning to get it ready to plate. I look like a chimney sweep when I’m done. All black gunk on your clothes and face. Carbon fiber and wood for back plates is incredibly time consuming. I hate that part. Probably about 15+ hours on metal. It is actually way more but I can’t even estimate it.

Finish: OMG! Don’t even know as they are all different in their challenges. Sanding, blisters on every finger, dying, sealing, spraying, UV oven, sand more, spray more, bla, bla. 30 hours easily total. The UV finish is so hard it takes 5+ hours of sanding and buffing alone. Then you go through somewhere. Do it again. I am now using Chromaclear for the top coat as it buffs much easier and looks fantastic. Still, it is very finicky on temperature and humidity whereas the UV polyester doesn’t care about any thing other than how hard it can make itself to buff.

Carbon Fiber- At least 4 hours of actual hands on work to saturate the fibers with epoxy. This is done twice to ensure saturation. Then it’s vacuum bagged for 10 hours each time. It sits for a few days on the form that makes it. Then you have to cover up with as much protective clothing as possible to keep the dreaded carbon fiber dust off of you and cut it with a grinder blade in the table saw. It is cut into strips that will go into the neck. Lots of carbon fiber in the necks all strategically placed. These are epoxied into the necks. Total time for carbon fiber. ???????? Lots of hideous time. Say 10 hours average.

That’s just some of the work. There are many more hours of total hand work doing the frets and setting it all up. CNC just makes deadly accurate parts and makes things possible that I couldn’t do other wise. It opens the doors to a lot of stuff that you just couldn’t do any other way. It definitely isn’t a cookie cutter thing like some people want you to believe. It makes things more time consuming in a lot of cases just because you know that you could do something with it so you do. Hope this helps.

[Leonc]

We can now see that they don't call those Driskills Diablos without good cause! Repent I tell you! Repent!!!

[Ron Thorn]

From their live LP "Satan's in my HAAS"

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Ron Thorn
Jon,
Under a few minutes is probably pushing it. I know PRS' spindle speen is 10K rpm, mine is a little less so my feed rate is slightly lower. I have a few more operations to do such as top and side purfling. There is probably three main reasons I'm slower:
1 - Every body is different. It's not a case of load the body and walk away with mine. I'm currently up to 29 rear cavities, so I load the appropriate one and once it's finished I load the next program. Pickup combos, different body thicknesses, etc.

2 - I don't push the machine very hard. It takes 45 minutes to do the carve top. I could probably push it to 30 minutes, but risk blowing out some maple...not worth it. I haven't had to run a body through the bandsaw before it hits the dumpster yet, knock on wood.
Master Builder Red Dave from the Custom Shop always busts my chops when he sees me running a body. I'll take 4 passes around the perimeter and a final clean-up pass...at Fender: 1 pass, done.

3 - I'm still chicken-sh*t. When you find just the right top for the customer, that he selected, the last thing you want to do is rout for a humbucker where a P-90 should be. I'm standing in front of the CNC the whole time it's running making sure everything is "cool". My heart still races a bit when a body is running...I'm not afraid to admit it. 20hp can do a lot of damage to wood ;) .

PRS needs to pump out as many as possible per day. They've probably refined their programs to optimize every second of run time, they need to. I'll take it a little slower just to be safe.

Ron

Thanks, Ron.

Suffice it to say, whatever it is you're doing - just keep doing it. :)

[hansoloist]

After taking notice of how many people neglect to wash their hands upon exiting the restroom, I'll take a CNC guitar every time. Thanks, folks, I'm here all week!!!

peace
-jeff

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by Leonc
I'm here to tell you brothers and sisters that all those evil computerized, whizzing and whirring machines are the Devil's tools!! Throw a bunch of wood, store-bought plastic, screws and paint in one end and out pops a completed, machine-made guitar on the other end!!! What kind of evil-black witchery could concieve of such a foul and inhuman plot ? It's Satan's work I tell ye! [IMG]

Then again, there's really no reason that someone couldn't invent such a machine (or set of machines). And it might even make some nice guitars. It just takes robots and code, my friends.

An advanced CNC on one end of the line and a PLEK on the other. In the middle put some of those painting robots that all of the car manufacturers use; some sanding and buffing robots. This actually sounds pretty easy. Get Paul Allen on the phone! He plays guitar, right?

[Denyle_Guitars]

Originally posted by JoeB63
Then again, there's really no reason that someone couldn't invent such a machine (or set of machines). And it might even make some nice guitars. It just takes robots and code, my friends.

An advanced CNC on one end of the line and a PLEK on the other. In the middle put some of those painting robots that all of the car manufacturers use; some sanding and buffing robots. This actually sounds pretty easy. Get Paul Allen on the phone! He plays guitar, right?

Hey, why not just dump garbage in one end, separate the metal plastic and paper, then pop those guitars out the other side. Then we can all justify our guitar purchases by cleaning up the enviroment. Call it Guitarbage, it smells a little funky but it sounds great.

[mouldynudger]

This should perhaps be a separate thread but I`m intrigued as to the economics of guitar building and the purchase of cnc machines.
Addmitedly I`m no buisiness expert but I `m having difficulty working out how a small one or two man shop could fund such a machine to be used solely for guitar related use from the same.

I realise that this relates to things such as individuals personal circumstances and have no desire to pry, but I can`t make the sums add up for overhead/ price as it relates to my corner of the world.

My knowledge of US geography is limited. Do most small guitar builders operate in areas with low overhead costs?

[Leonc]

When you try to do the math, make sure that you've included these two factors in your formula--they play a pretty important role, from what I can tell:

- Love

- Insanity

;)

[eric102673]

Ain't that the ever loving truth! :D

Go guys go!!!

-e.

[aleclee]

The best description I've heard:There are two types of electric guitar builders: Those who use CNCs
Those who wish they had a CNCHeck, even G&L has changed their tune and started using 'em.

[dirk nixon]

Originally posted by eric102673
None of these small guys are getting rich building guitars, no matter how they do it. They do it because they love it.

I find it inspiring.

-e.

+1

These guys are my hero's!

[Gadowguitars]

we'll consider this..... 2 employees at $70000 for the pair.....10 sick days a piece..plus 1 week vacation a piece. CNC $70000...works 7 days a week 365 days a year...and rarely makes a mistake.....and doesn't complain:D

[big mike]

And Ron's in California. Low overhead??

BWWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Try to rent an apartment here for less than 1500 a month.:eek:

[cswolfe]

No thanks, Big Mike. In those areas I don't care for the gangs that wear purple, so I won't fit in.

Thanks, guys. Wonderful thread.

[Drunkagain]

Really, really interesting thread. Thanks to the builders for the breakdown. I've never given much thought to whats done with the CNC and whats done by hand other than knowing it's more than I could ever do. Puts how much work these guys do into perspective. :dude

[Scott Peterson]

Personally I have always laughed at the "Handmade" concept.

If you buy evolution (or not) we humans made these cool things called tools. And with these tools, we have done some really cool things.

And folks have built guitars - and all their ancestor instruments - with tools.

The CNC is just another tool. As sure as a hammer, saw, chisel or straight edge is a tool.

So the whole debate stems from nothing but ignorance IMHO.

And it is a credit to the folks that took time out from building real guitars to put thier thoughts up here; those posts probably took enormous amounts of time and effort to commit to our screens across the world.

[hemlock]

I'm still saving for one of Saul's models built solely with fingernails and teeth.

[Scott Peterson]

Originally posted by hemlock
I'm still saving for one of Saul's models built solely with fingernails and teeth.

Again, tools. :D

Handmade, in the strictest sense, means using nothing but your hands. I'll let you use your fingernails, but teeth? You may as well be using one of 'dem evil CNC machines. :D

[Saul Koll]

That's funny! Wait, I gotta get the splinters out of my teeth....

OK!

This is an interesting thread. Great posts by all.

I am all for the best tool for the job, or at least the best tools that I can afford. At this time I have not gone that route but it is not because I have anything against it. I am very interested and continue to research. I am sure that at least some of my operations will be done that way before too long. I look forward to the new possibilities.

I am quite certain that Stradavarius and Amati would have used CNC had it been available to them.

In the mean time, please pass the floss....


cheers,

Saul

[John Mayes]

I do all my bodies by hand, as with my hollow ones and chambered ones I will vary things slightly to take into account the different woods and what the customer wants in the end.

My necks I have done by CNC to my specs. It is more accurate than what I can do by hand and if a custom neck profile is wanted then I have my guy leave it oversize and I can finish the carve by hand.

CNC is awesome for some things and not worth it for others.

[Mark Ray]

This is great stuff!

I've been through the PRS factory twice, and as others have already said the amount of real hands touching guitars is astounding. The machines just "cut out the canvas" as far as I'm concerned. The guitars take a ton of work to get completed.

Having a guitar built by Ron, with update pics from time to time was a real eye opener. Let's not forget that he still does inlay for lots of other guitars, on top of building his guitars. I knew the wait ahead of time, and couldn't expect the guitar to be done quicker than that. You're looking at 2 or 3 people working on it compared to 100+ (PRS). I don't know the typical wait time for a Private Stock from PRS, but I'm guessing it's considerably longer than a production line guitar-much more along the lines of Ron, Joe, etc.

Question for Ron: How did you get the neck blank for #29 to fit into the CNC?

:D :D :D

Mark

[Leonc]

Mark, I think Ron had to make a bigger CNC for your guitar's neck! :p

[mouldynudger]

Originally posted by big mike
And Ron's in California. Low overhead??

BWWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Try to rent an apartment here for less than 1500 a month.:eek:

If a rent of $1500/month is an indicator of high overhead costs then I`ll assume the answer to my original question is yes.

Just trying to get a handle on the viability angle of guitar making.

,Damian.

[big mike]

Originally posted by mouldynudger
If a rent of $1500/month is an indicator of high overhead costs then I`ll assume the answer to my original question is yes.

Just trying to get a handle on the viability angle of guitar making.

,Damian.

Sorry, I have my issues about living here.

Cost of living and expenses are somewhat ludacris here in California.
Completely out of control.

[Diablo]

I'm in Fort Worth Texas. We passed Las Vegas up as the fastest growing city in America. Real estate is getting out of hand here. A little house that looks like 120K is over 400,000! I had an overhead of around $3500 to as much as $6000 a month for 5 years depending on what extras I had coming in each month. Now that the Haas is paid off and some of the other tools, it's not so bad.

Gathering change up for lunch is something I remember quite well. I remember a few years ago, a period of 6 months with my car broken and having to walk to lunch each day. That had to stop when June hit and it was 100+ each day. By the time you got somewhere to eat, you would be so hot and sweaty that you weren't hungry anymore. Then walk back and get hungry again. That wasn't fun. Getting all of these high end tools though was really tough. I have most of the toys now so it's not bad anymore. Just need to get this huge backlog done.

[fyler]

wow. move to st. louis. my rent is $285 a month.

no joke.

[JoeB63]

Originally posted by fyler
wow. move to st. louis. my rent is $285 a month.

no joke.

Yeah, but you live in St. Louis.

;)

[John Hurtt]

Originally posted by JoeB63
Yeah, but you live in St. Louis.

;)

Ok, that was stinkin' funny! :D

Great thread and I'd like to give my thanks to all the manufacturers that have shared some insight ot this. I will say when I pick up my Thorn, it's stunning as both a musical instrument and a work of art.

As an aside, I have to agree that California real estate prices are ridiculously out of control. I live in the San Joaquin Valley, just over the Altamont pass from the Bay Area. I bought my house nine years ago for about $165,000. Similar houses in my neighborhood routinely sell for over $600,000 today.

I'm thinking of selling out and moving to St. Louis myself! :eek: :D

[pesocaster]

Great read!

[NickVig]

cool thread!! nice to see all the different builders chiming in.:dude

[scott]

Wow, Ron has it all down to the last hour. Nice going. I haven’t totalled all my hours on the guitars.....well....because im afraid to find out exactly how much Im making. Im not driving a Ferrari yet thats all I know.:)
Now that I have a CNC I will never go back. Its ridiculous to do the grunt work by hand when there is no need for it. I know I can carve a top by hand over and over , or rout a chamber in a semi hollowbody,but why waste the time. Time that could be better used obsessing about the details like, fretwork, finishing and setups. Its a no brainer if you ask me. Also the accuracy cant be matched. I would much rather have fretboards made on a CNC. everything is cleaner and more accurate all across the board.
Its amazing the misconceptions people have. I once had a dealer call me that thought I did everything by hand. I went on to tell him that I am now doing lots of it with a CNC. That pretty much wrapped up the conversation. He said, "at your prices I would expect everything to be done by hand. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a guitar that only costs you $100 to make." ????? I WISH!!! I still wouldnt be driving a Ferrari but Id be way better off. It was futile to explain that the guitars being made now are even cleaner than the ones I was making just a few years ago.
CNCs dont sand bodies, they dont spray finish, they dont wet sand, lay frets, level and crown frets, they dont sand bodies, they dont buff the finish, they dont wire guitars, setup guitars, they dont rough mill wood to dimensions, stain maple, .........ect. I could go on all day.
When I got my CNC it was not to save time but to make the construction of the guitars as accurate and clean as possible. Precision is the name of the game here.
In BC I have had the pleasure of meeting many old native artists that make wicked masks and carvings. Most of them were using chainsaws and power tools. Ive asked a few why they didnt do it old school with hand tools. All of them said the same thing ....... if the old timers had chainsaws they wouldnt have used axes made out of rocks!!.......Duhh.

www.heatleyguitars.com

[larrylover]

we'll consider this..... 2 employees at $70000 for the pair.....10 sick days a piece..plus 1 week vacation a piece. CNC $70000...works 7 days a week 365 days a year...and rarely makes a mistake.....and doesn't complain

There you have it! I'd pay big money for CNC's too. Guitars made without the bitching!

[Saul Koll]

Well said, Scott.
One other thing: CNC equipment does not design guitars.


cheers!

saul

(1986 Volvo wagon.)

[scott]

LOL Saul, crackin me up.



(89 jeep cherokee)



www.heatleyguitars.com

[MOJO]

Originally posted by scott
. I once had a dealer call me that thought I did everything by hand. I went on to tell him that I am now doing lots of it with a CNC. That pretty much wrapped up the conversation. He said, "at your prices I would expect everything to be done by hand. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a guitar that only costs you $100 to make." ?????
.......Duhh.

www.heatleyguitars.com

i'll bet i can quess who this quote was from:rolleyes:

[raz]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
I am quite certain that Stradavarius and Amati would have used CNC had it been available to them.


I just got this mental picture of Stradavari coming back from the dead and encountering one of his instruments that just sold for whatever ungodly amount. "For that one?" says he. "But that one was a piece of sh*t!!"

R
A
Z
(Who is probably a bit tetched still, owing to my first encounter with a Koll guitar last weekend. Stunning. Lovely.)

[scott]

Not who you might think MOJO. This wasnt that long ago, the guy spoke the same language tho.
A few dealers have phoned me with the same type of attitude. I wondered if they were assosiated with you know who.


www.heatleyguitars.com

[JDJ]

Archive this one, Scotty! :BEER

[Jack Briggs]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
Well said, Scott.
One other thing: CNC equipment does not design guitars.


cheers!

saul

(1986 Volvo wagon.)


+1 and +1 again, Saul!



(1987 VW)

[Saul Koll]

Dang! Some us luthiers are rolling in some skanky ass old cars. We need to get them robots to work it harder!

[aleclee]

Originally posted by JDJ
Archive this one, Scotty! :BEER we're not archiving anymore 'cause we don't delete posts outside the emporia anymore

[daveS]

Ron, Saul, Joe, Scott . . .and all the rest. Thanks for this post . . really interesting stuff. Coolness.

I really don't know jack . . . but having messed around with machining some alloys in college and at the model shop at past companies (aluminum, brass ,stainless), I always thought a CNC was the best machine shop invention since the vernier calipers :) . Plus, it's more fun to watch a robot, like a Hass or a Fadal, mill parts than it is to watch an old Bridgeport hackin' away.

Questions:

-Is the learning curve for programming a CNC pretty steep ? And how do you get the data from CAD station to the CNC ?

-For you guys who machine tremelos, bridges and saddles (steel & brass) . . . do you have flood cool your parts or is that not necessary ?

Just curious.

Cheers,
-d

[David Myka]

I guess I am one of the minority of non-CNC builders here who does all of my work by hand (by which I mean I operate the tools directly with my hands as opposed to automating it with a computer). I do have a pantograph router that I built for roughing out the tops of my guitars which saves me a good amount of time but it does still need to be operated by me. I do build jigs to guide the tools I use and these are designed to be as universal as possible so that, for example, I can route the neck pocket for any size and taper neck into any body style of any thickness and at any angle all with the same jig. I cut my scarf joints on the headstocks with a japanese saw and true up the surfaces with a hand plane. It is very pleasing work to do and is quicker than setting up a table saw for the task (which is a good thing since I don't own one yet).

The main reason I choose to remain hand bulder is due to my personal approach to building guitars. I build my solidbody electric and hollowbody guitars using the same principles that I use to build my acoustics. Essentially tap tuning the bodies, necks, and tops to determine the best mix of tonewoods to fit the guitar I am building. To get the required tones out of these woods some tops need to be thicker or thinner in areas and some bodies may need to be voiced through chambering. While this may be easier to grasp in reference to an acoustic or hollowbody guitar I do the same with the maple topped solidbodies. The top carve can make a huge difference in the response and overall tonal balance of the guitar. Some maple tops ring like a bell and some don't. If there is a heavy bass response that is out of balance I may want to use the dampening qualities of the maple and make it thicker in the bass area (generally the area behind the bridge). On a hollowbody I may want to thin out the edges more to open up the treble. I haven't yet conceived of an approriate algorithm that would effectively produce these results that does not depend on my personal favorite feedback device: my ears.

Altering the top carve also affects the neck angle (or height above the body) and/or the bridge height so all of this has to be adjusted on an individual guitar basis. The adjustable jigs I use are very flexible to accommodate these design variations adn woudl be difficult at best to program in CAD. For what I want to achieve it would be a compromise build to dimensional tolerances when 1/8 of an inch can be too much when finding the resonant sweet spot through chambering.

Having said all that I could certianly make use of a CNC router if I had one. I would put it to good use by having it do the more repetitive routing tasks like those already mentioned by the other CNC builders. I use my duplicarver to rough carve my tops oversize so I can voice them by hand. There is no other way to achieve what I do. If I had a CNC I would also use it to rough carve the tops. It would replace my pickups routing jigs and my fret saw without a doubt. But I would never hand over the most important task of voicing a guitar to a machine that doesn't know the differnece between a resonant, sweet tone and plate distortion. Both qualities have their place when building for a specific tone but building to dimension does not account for the subtleties that occur in music. This is where the human machine is superior.

[scott]

David,
I also voice my guitars much like you do. The CNC takes a lot of the grunt work out, similar to the way you use you duplicarver. On hollowbodies I always tune the tops before I glue them down. Same with semi hollows. The CNC can be used to rout tops thicker or thinner depending on where you zero out the machine. A guy can be pretty creative with these machines....its all how you look at it.
Im glad I built for so many years by hand, it taught me a lot about tapping and tunning but Im never going back. I figured I had better learn it sooner than later before I get left in the dust.
I build a lot of custom one off guitars that are still made entirely by hand. Its fun and it keeps my skills tuned up but I love watching that machine do its thing. Its pretty cool.

DaveS - yes the learning curve is massive but it is worth it and then some. I just save the drawings on a disk then take it to the computer that runs my machine and I write the code there with another program.
In a few years it will be next to impossible to compete if you dont have one IMHO. The competition is fierce for sure.


www.heatleyguitars.com

[Chun13]

Incredible post there, I guess the conclusion of the post is that luthier don't drive in Ferrari's because they drive their CNC's (or their saving for one :D)

Keep building the good stuff guys, that's so much love you'll share with us !

[Gadowguitars]

I agree with everything Scott said...and yes the learning curve is there but its getting easier with every year....5 years ago it would take 3 times as long to learn how to operate one of these beast. We use Rhino cad and Visual Mill cam.....5 years ago this technology would have cost $20 grand......we bought it for $1200.

To go from Cad to the machine....after design, we put a tool path on it with our Cam, which turns the program into G-code...we then save it to a disk (I can't believe we still have to use a floppy)...then load it into the Haas.

[bluestein]

Originally posted by David Myka
Essentially tap tuning the bodies, necks, and tops to determine the best mix of tonewoods to fit the guitar I am building. To get the required tones out of these woods some tops need to be thicker or thinner in areas and some bodies may need to be voiced through chambering. While this may be easier to grasp in reference to an acoustic or hollowbody guitar I do the same with the maple topped solidbodies. The top carve can make a huge difference in the response and overall tonal balance of the guitar. Some maple tops ring like a bell and some don't. If there is a heavy bass response that is out of balance I may want to use the dampening qualities of the maple and make it thicker in the bass area (generally the area behind the bridge). On a hollowbody I may want to thin out the edges more to open up the treble......But I would never hand over the most important task of voicing a guitar to a machine that doesn't know the differnece between a resonant, sweet tone and plate distortion. Both qualities have their place when building for a specific tone but building to dimension does not account for the subtleties that occur in music. This is where the human machine is superior.

Thank you David - I was hoping a Luthier would weigh in with that point of view.

Personally, I don't want a CNC anywhere near the top and back plate of my archtops....other than a very rough cut.

I can see where CNC might help with some of the grunt work in carving necks etc - but there is no substitute for a great set of ears and the mechanical skills to translate that to an instrument.

[Jon Silberman]

FWIW, master luthier Bill Cumpiano says tap tuning per se is mostly hocus pocus/bullshit though what many luthiers actually do while calling it tap tuning (see Myka's post, above) plays significant a role in voicing the instrument.

In a nutshell: "... the approach of people who've said that they 'tune' their guitars and the ones that don't, in the end, seem to morph together. What is the same is that THEY have become "tuned" to what the guitar is feeding back to them in all kinds of ways, in ways that they can understand but cannot explain or teach. "

The full article is here:

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm

[bluestein]

...And perhaps for him - it is.

But there are luthiers that DO know how to do it. Guys like Benedetto, D'Aquisto, D'Angelico, Schroeder and others.....

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by bluestein
...And perhaps for him - it is.

But there are luthiers that DO know how to do it. Guys like Benedetto, D'Aquisto, D'Angelico, Schroeder and others.....

I'm guessing you're unfamiliar with Cumpiano's work, e.g., it's probably fair to say his book on Guitarmaking is the bible of its field. In any event, through his website and newsletters, the guy routinely shares knowledge and techniques that many other luthiers in his position would be more likely to zealously guard as trade secrets. That's a good thing.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811806405/infoline0f-21/202-5480219-9103052

[David Myka]

Cumpiano certainly can make a nice acoustic guitar. I own his book and there are some excellent ideas in there but it certainly lacks in the area of voicing a top. He suggests just following the blueprints and building to dimentional spec. Does this produce a good guitar? Sure. If I have a particular way I want it to sound will he be the guy I would go to? Nope.

I took a class from Harry Fleishman years ago on the hows and whys of acoustic guitar building. This is where I learned the techniques of tap tuning and controlled voicing. There is a good reason hy you don't see books written about and it is because to demonstrate the ideas you really need to get your hands on several pieces of the same material to hear the inherent differences in them. And then you have to build a soundboard to practice the theory and realize how it works (we build the whole guitar). The results were mixed in the classroom but afterwards I went on to build guitars for people and had more than a few tell me that I nailed the tone in their head (both electric and acoustic guitars). If we are all having a group hallucination then at least it's got good tone :)

The difficilculty in talking about tap tuning and voicing without building is the same as describing improvisational techniques without actually playing. You need the hands on experience or you just don't get it. I never did.

Here is a different take by another master luthier Irvin Somogyi:
Somogyi article (http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html)

[robmarch]

since this thread is already full of good information from respected, quality luthiers of varying appreciation for CNC, I will go ahead and pollute it with the opinion of a "hack." :)

Building a guitar (or aspects of a guitar) by hand can give you a large dose of perspective in a short time on facets of guitar building. I know that, for me, a guitar is only as good as it's intonation, regardless of other aspects. I immediately decided that I would not cut my own fret slots on my last two projects, and would start with a CNC'd/precut fretboard at least.

I also had very few tools and no shop access on my most recent build, which happened in my finished basement. I wanted to maximize my chances of ending up with something playable, so I decided to start with a Carvin through body neck. Don't get me wrong, I definitely feel like I need to build a neck from scratch one day to have it in the bag of tricks, but in my position at the time, I decided to start with a known quantity here.

Now, starting with a CNC'd neck doesn't make for a good "handmade" guitar argument, right? :)

The next step was joining the 7/8" maple top. This thing was figured like crazy, and had moved quite a bit in shipment. The most exotic tool I had available to do this work was a hand plane. I don't see myself ever doing this again without at least a router table...it's just not worth it.

Next, join the neck and the body "wings" together. More joint planing (though the neck didn't require it, the wings did), clamping, and gluing. Now, remove the extra thickness of the neck to make a flat surface for the maple top to glue to. A forstner(sp?) bit in a drill press would have been great here, or a router in a jig, you name it. What actually happened was a hand drill, some chisel action, and sandpaper cleanup. I won't do this again without some sort of fixed "z-axis" wood removal, as mentioned above. I chambered the body at the same time, with similar technique, and also "routed" the pickup/switch wiring with a chisel before gluing the top on.

Plane the maple surface (a planer would have really helped here, probably before gluing the halves together due to size limitations), and glue together. "rout" the pickup cavities and control cavities by drilling most of the material out with a hand drill and chisel cleanup. I used a dremel freehand to clean up the edges that would show. I won't rout pickup or control cavities again without at least a router and a template.

This is probably already boring enough to most of you, so I'll stop here (especially not boring you with the details of hand carving the top). But, from my experience, I feel like there isn't much difference between milling parts on a CNC and using a template router, etc., except that the CNC'd parts usually come out more consistent. I also know how skilled you have to be to get a hand planed joint to make a perfect glue line (far more skilled than I am) and other items that are critical to the structure of a guitar.

At this point, I believe that the "magic" of a handmade guitar is in the quality control, the attention to detail, and the critical eye. I don't think using a CNC for critical operations diminishes the value of the work, and only makes for consistent guitars, and less gambling on whether a particular guitar is going to be a "dog" or a "gem." Wood is a natural product, of course, so there will always be variation, but better mating surfaces and tolerances help minimize the variables we can control.

Which is better, "handmade" or "cnc made"? In my opinion, even the CNC'd guitars have a lot of hand work, and even most of the "handmade" guitars use some form of a less robotically controlled CNC type operation (pin router and templates, etc.). I don't think there's a lot of difference in those operations. Now, if we're talking about someone who makes guitars with only hand tools similar to the manner I worked on my body above, I would say that these guitars would take a master luthier to be consistently excellent. If this appeals to you, be prepared to pay whatever this master luthier feels his time is worth. The rest of the boutique/high end luthiers select their own compromise of CNC, hand/template operations, and hand operations to meet their balance of cost and schedule. I don't see a big distinction here.

[hansoloist]

When it comes to building guitars I know one thing: jack. When it comes to the whole CNC vs. "Handmade" thing, I know another: shit. That's the extent of my luthiery know-how. All I know is that my Thorn demonstrates a level of precision that I have never seen in another guitar. And it sounds absof*ckinlutely bitchin.

Mr. Peterson, this thread is definitley one for the archives.

peace
-jeff

[Jon Silberman]

I'm with you, hansoloist, on guitar building, generally, and agree, there's lots of really interesting & good info. here in this thread.

David, thanks for your last reply - very informative and interesting! :)

[Scott Peterson]

It seems to me that there *is* a middle ground on CNC, even for the guys that tap tune or whathave you. And most of the CNC aware builders here have stated it, though not as plainly as this - the CNC does the grunt work and the detail work (fret slots, inlay) far better than by hand.

And for all it is worth; even a CNC cut archtop needs a ENOURMOUS amount of hand sanding and work to "tune" it. It seems to me, though I might be wrong, that folks are assuming that if you rough cut a top with CNC that you are then done and gluing it up. Not so.

You still gotta work it, sand it, chisel it, perfect it.

CNC doesn't rob the artisty from luthiery, it empowers the luthier to do his job to a higher level of perfection.

IMHO anyway; as a guy who has built 2 guitars by hand (took over 2 years on the first and the second was abandoned long ago) and assembled more than a few parts guitars (ala Warmoth). So take my opinion for what it is and nothing more.

[Denyle_Guitars]

For those who have visited my website, you may have noticed the little spiel about no cnc machines being employed. Well, let me tell you, it's not because I have anything against cnc. Far from it, I'm a techno junkie and if I had the $ and the space, I'd sure as heck have the cnc.

It all comes down to perpetuating a myth just to market your product. Why do you think Gibson still claims handmade when everyone knows otherwise.

Jeez robmarch, you really wanted to build yourself a guitar that day.

[Chiba]

Originally posted by scott
CNCs dont...level and crown frets...Actually, a PLEK machine will do that :D

I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

[David Myka]

Scott, very well said.

There is not a fine line of distinction between hand built and CNC (or semi-production) made guitars provided that there is equal and appropriate skills being used. How much a person uses a CNC or a hand carving plane is not a meaningful statistic for determinig the quality of a guitar. It is what you do with it that counts.

I think part of the difficulty with this topic are these extreme viewpoints. If you feel that you have to cut down a tree with a knife, sand it by hand with the sharkskin sandpaper that you got from a shark you caught while paddling a sealskin and whale bone kayak, and armed with an obsidian tipped spear in order to have a truly hand made guitar then I think the point is utterly lost. On the other extreme if CNC made means that you put wood in one end and a robot on the other is ready to string the guitar up for you then all is indeed lost.

Personally, I would prefer to have the job of falling a tree done with a nicely made chainsaw wielded by a skilled lumberjack. Their waiting lists are not as long ;)

[robmarch]

Originally posted by Denyle_Guitars
Jeez robmarch, you really wanted to build yourself a guitar that day.

:(

day? I wish. I was spoiled with access to lots of tools on the second one, and convinced myself that I could do it without them on the 3rd.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/robmarch/elephant%20guitar/sideshot.jpg

as highlighted on here already, the finishing is a very tricky part of the process also. Shooting spray can nitro didn't make this any easier.

If any of you reading this thread want to gain an appreciation for what actually goes into building a guitar, you now know what I'd recommend.

[Dirge]

Originally posted by Chiba
Actually, a PLEK machine will do that :D

I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

I've seen one in action too, it is cool but it is not as perfect as you might think. The problem is the grind stones, if there is an air pocket the stone can/will become flawed and then it eats the fret. This is what I saw happen and I was told that it happens fairly often. The documentaion is in German too. :D

Great thread, I thought it was going to be another one of those rant things. But it turned out to be really informative, thanks guys!

Off-topic: I have lived in the Bay Area and now live outside St Louis.
One of my friends back in CA bought a house in Freakmont 5 years ago for $450k, her house is now valued at $985k. And this is for a place where people steal the mail out of the mailbox, you have to keep you garage door locked and everything in your backyard chained down.

[r9player]

Great thread btw! wish I could afford all that cool machinery and stuff to make guitars .. me just tinkering along for now, nearing finish stage on a oft redone very abused guitar body :) (at least I got plenty of practice ..)

and the off-topic part
Off-topic: I have lived in the Bay Area and now live outside St Louis.
One of my friends back in CA bought a house in Freakmont 5 years ago for $450k, her house is now valued at $985k. And this is for a place where people steal the mail out of the mailbox, you have to keep you garage door locked and everything in your backyard chained down.

I can get you a place like that in Philly for ... $40K .. I think (prices have gone up, used to be $20K) Includes convenient drug dealer down the street and outside school shootings and stabbings!

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Chiba
I saw one in action last week. It was COOL!

--chiba

And so how's Phil doing? ;)

[scott]

Right, I forgot about the PLEK. I saw one in jan at the NAMM show. it was cool. At 100K I doubt I will be able to justify one for a while yet.



www.heatleyguitars.com

[Chiba]

Originally posted by fluxion
I've seen one in action too, it is cool but it is not as perfect as you might think. The problem is the grind stones, if there is an air pocket the stone can/will become flawed and then it eats the fret. This is what I saw happen and I was told that it happens fairly often. The documentaion is in German too. :DI'm sure every CNC machine glitches once in a while. I hadn't heard about the air pocket in the grinding wheel thing, so it definitely wasn't my experience. The Les Paul of mine that Phil ran through the PLEK was his 60th guitar to get the treatment and he hasn't had any problems yet, so 'fairly often' might be the statement of somebody who doesn't understand the technology, or is afraid it might take business away.

Anyway - Jon, Phil is doing well :)

Even Phil Jacoby, who is WELL known for his meticulous fret jobs, says the PLEK, while wonderful as a time-saving tool, still warrants hand & eye checking on each & every guitar to make sure everything's perfect. Like the other luthiers in this thread, for him the PLEK is a tool - it lets him take a 6 or 8 hour job and knock it down to about 15 minutes of attention at the beginning of the PLEK run and 15 minutes of attention at the end - PLUS while the machine is running he can be working on something else.

A PLEK still won't pull frets, install frets, trim fret ends, plane a fingerboard, re-radius a fingerboard, etc. Just a new fretting tool.

--chiba

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Chiba
he hasn't had any problems yet
--chiba

He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous.

He was spec-ing out the gtr and could not get it to work.

A re-boot finally fixed the problem but we lost a lot of time over the conumdrum.

The PLEK is a cool machine and provides some very detailed & precise information. He used it to calibrate but didn't use it to actually dress the frets largely because of time constraints. Next time.

Back to CNC's.

[Dirge]

Originally posted by Suhr
Not on ours! Our Plek Pro mills the frets with a cutter
I wouldnt want to do it any other way. It finds things humans can not and is a great analysis tool. Every guitar we make goes thru the PLek. Also the PLek cuts our Nuts Ouch!

That's cool, it does sound like a great machine. I saw it eat a fret while I was taking the Heritage tour at the old Gibson plant in Kalamazoo. Rendall Wall is the guy that runs the Plek there, and while he seems to know a lot about guitars. He wouldn't be the first person I would ask about computers. That was the only computer I saw in the place, not even one for billing, and it was in a room with no AC. So I'm not real surprised to hear others are having better luck with their machines.

[dirk nixon]

Originally posted by Suhr
The PLek Pro is sweet and a bit more money!
It has a profile cutter not grinder, cuts the nut slots (all at different angles, programable spacing) and is capable of inlay work as well.

Do you use yours for inlay work? I didn't know it could do that.

[Saul Koll]

That sounds like an incredible machine!

Here is view of how one guitar company balances digital technology and traditional methods. This is a link to a Frank Ford field trip to Collings, back in '01. I am sure there have been changes, but it is still very interesting.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html

Lots of pictures! Lots of cool tooling. If you have ever played a Collings, you know what kind of quality that Bill is achieving.

[philtone]

Howdy all,

I wanted to chime in about the Plek.

.[QUOTE]I saw it eat a fret while I was taking the Heritage tour at the old Gibson plant in Kalamazoo.[QUOTE]

I have a Plek Basic, which uses an abrasive wheel - abrasive in a rubberized base ala craytex - to remove fret material. This is similar to what folks like Rich Beck use for polishing. The wheels themselves are rather soft; it is not a grinding wheel as one would think of from say, a bench grinder. It is not even as hard as a ceramic jeweler's polishing wheel. Also, unlike a grinder, the wheel only turns when it needs to and reverses directions. It doesn't run at high enough RPMs to fly apart. I've never seen or heard of said air pocket. Those of you that have destroyed rotary tool wheels probably know the symptoms of the impending failure: heat, speed, forcing the wheel on the workpiece. The Basic I have and the one I've seen at Joe Glaser's do not exhibit any of these characteristics. Also, the machine tracks the diameter of the wheel and will not use it anymore beyond a safe point, after which the wheel is changed. The machine references itself every day and aligns the wheel for every job, sometimes more than once for one guitar. The machine measures between every pass during leveling operations. A Plek level is a very controlled process.

Besides, I don't eat frets. They don't taste very good!

Not on ours! Our Plek Pro mills the frets with a cutter

The Basic is geared more towards a repair shop, which suits my uses. John Suhr has the Plek Pro, which is intended more for production use. The Pro is faster, has other features beyond the Basic and uses a metal cutter. The Pro is better suited for an operation like Suhr's. Both machines use Plek's propietary virtual fret dress software to calculate relief curves. Both machines give accurate results.

He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous.

The software has multiple built in safeties. Its hard to make an error. The error that occured on Lance Hallam's scan occurred when I entered a measurement incorrectly by mistake. Even though I corrected it, it had already altered that particular file's algorithm. I couldn't correct the file, so after trouble shooting and a little advice from Glaser, I started the guitar as a new file and it went right through as usual. It was an opportunity to get to know the machine better.

Also, the Plek is shock mounted against environmental interference. Power surges, lightenting etc won't cause the machine to damage an instrument, but will cancel the process, to be restarted when the coast is clear.

The only trouble I have ever had is finishing refrets fast enough to load back into the Plek - and that's me, not the machine;). I'm not the fastest at many tasks. I take the time to do them to the best of my ability. The Plek has increased my quality and productivity - a winning combination. And I dig it!

It finds things humans can not and is a great analysis tool. Every guitar we make goes thru the PLek.

The measurement and diagnostic capabilites are the heart of the Plek. Courtesy of the Plek, I can now see all there is to see. I use this data to find and deliver the best possible remedies for given situations. I know of no more accurate method or process or approach to fretwork and action than teh Plek.

My philosophy is that every guitar and every player is unique. The Plek helps me to cater to individual preferences. And that is the name of the repairman's game.

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by Saul Koll
That sounds like an incredible machine!

Here is view of how one guitar company balances digital technology and traditional methods. This is a link to a Frank Ford field trip to Collings, back in '01. I am sure there have been changes, but it is still very interesting.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html

Lots of pictures! Lots of cool tooling. If you have ever played a Collings, you know what kind of quality that Bill is achieving.

I ran into Bill Collings at the Plek booth at January NAMM. We got a demo. I'd love to get ahold of one.

[Chiba]

Originally posted by lhallam
He had a problem with mine although nothing disasterous. He was spec-ing out the gtr and could not get it to work. A re-boot finally fixed the problem but we lost a lot of time over the conumdrum.I'll give you that was a problem, but not like the one described, where the PLEK trashed a guitar.

Back to CNC's. Isn't that what the PLEK is? :D

--chiba

AH, I just saw Phil's post! I can't really add anything, other than to say that with the PLEK Phil was able to show me how poor a refret was actually done on my beloved '77 Les Paul. Before Phil & his PLEK, the guitar felt OK to play - nothing special, pretty much like it had before the refret, but with taller frets if you follow. After the programming, scanning, buffing, cutting, buffing, scanning, measuring, etc. I realized exactly how crappy the refret had been. Before I was just twisted over some poor customer service, now I'm actually angry at the shop (which I will not name publicly) and they'll certainly never get any more of my business. Anyway - I'm of the firm opinion that the PLEK saved me from a frustrating early re-refret.

The thing about it is - even before Phil put it on the machine he was able to point out a bunch of places where the refret sucked, so it's not like he NEEDED the machine to tell him. He also critiqued my sh*tty nut that I made, but I can take the heat. After all, I work for myself for free :D

[Jon C]

Originally posted by David Myka
Cumpiano certainly can make a nice acoustic guitar. I own his book and there are some excellent ideas in there but it certainly lacks in the area of voicing a top. He suggests just following the blueprints and building to dimentional spec. Does this produce a good guitar? Sure. If I have a particular way I want it to sound will he be the guy I would go to? Nope. [/URL]

I'm not sure you understand what Bill Cumpiano is saying.

He's not saying that he does not voice a top for a particular sound. He's saying that voicing includes many factors and that that can be done through years of experience without necessarily "tap tuning" per se. He certainly knows how to voice an instrument.

I've known him for more than 30 years and played perhaps a dozen of his guitars. All just outstanding, and with some very different voices to be sure. When I described a particular sound I wanted in 1976, he nailed it exactly.

[David Myka]

Originally posted by Jon C
I'm not sure you understand what Bill Cumpiano is saying.

He's not saying that he does not voice a top for a particular sound. He's saying that voicing includes many factors and that that can be done through years of experience without necessarily "tap tuning" per se. He certainly knows how to voice an instrument.

I wasn't discrediting Cumpiano's skill as a luthier. I am sure his guitars sound and play as wonderful as they look. The couple that I have played certainly sounded good and had a great feel to them.

What I was talking about was his premise that tap tuning (and I will not put it in quotes) is a not a valid approach to voicing a guitar. This he states is because the people he talked were not able to adequately describe their techniques or had bought into it the hype and were spouting inconsistencies. Much like how in this very thread all of the CNCs users emphasized the great extent to which their work is done by hand yet the CNC supporters went on to bash hand building. Some even slammed hand building and then went on to validate CNCs by stating how much hand work is still being done. Hype is a wild thing and is responsible for a lot of very interesting logic.

All quotes are referenced from the Cumpiano article on tap tuning (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm)

To quote Cumpiano:
So I don't worry much about "tap tuning". I've come to avoid claims that some simple set of movements or motions will enable you to perfect the sound of your guitar, and all you have to do is understand these simple movement and motions, and all will be well and excellent no matter what else you do. It's a fool's errand.

The way he describes tap tuning is foolish. I would avoid claims like that myself. I have yet to meet a competent luthier using the technique suggest that tap tuning is simple and therefore not the product of hard earned experience. Nor do they suggest that tap tuning alone will produce a great guitar. And they most certainly do not suggest that if you tap tune an instrument that it will be great no matter what else you do. It is all about manipulating the subtleties of the guitar but I was never taught that I could learn this overnight. In fact I was told quite the opposite. Understanding what you are listening to and also understanding how it relates to the overall guitar takes time, experience, and experimentation.

When he describes tap tuners this is what he has to say:
Yet none have been able to explain to me clearly why they do what they do or what specifically are the goals they are trying to achieve—or how what they are doing is supposed to work. They just say that they manipulate the parts or the instrument until it responds in a "familiar" way.

Has anyone ever found the sweet spot on their amp before? You now it when you hear it don't you? This makes sense to me but I suppose it can be confusing. He then goes on to describe what it is that he does instead:

My path has been the harder one: Just doing guitarmaking until my ears and fingers and mind became familiar with the medium of guitarmaking.

What exactly is he clearing up here that is in any more precise terminology? Not much, but I am not going to try and hang him on that one praragraph (especially since I agree with him). He does come to some sort of an epiphany in the end with this:

Come to think about it, the approach of people who've said that they "tune" their guitars and the ones that don't, in the end, seem to morph together. What is the same is that THEY have become "tuned" to what the guitar is feeding back to them in all kinds of ways, in ways that they can understand but cannot explain or teach. But it arrives nonetheless, at it's own sweet time.

Thank you Jon C for urging me to take a closer look at his article. I would have missed his last point and misunderstood him completely. I do still believe that he doesn't get tap tuning since as I read through more of his articles he states this quite clearly. He does always seem to go back to saying that it works for some people so I have found some common ground with him there. I simply don't believe him about tap tuning.

I still stand by my statement however I will make it less personal. Understanding the techniques involved in tap tuning and knowing that they are built upon what most builders already agree upon I personally find it a superior method of voicing a guitar that produces superior results in my instruments. Having this experience I would not have a luthier without this understanding work for me. I would always know that I could have had more. Just an opinion but it is based on my exeperience as a builder and payer.

I think I should emphasize for those of you who are interested in the different methods people use to voice instruments that tap tuning (as far as I am understand it) is to be used to tune a guitar not just the soundboard. The soundboard along with the back offer the most fleixibility in terms of affecting tone but the construction of the bridge and saddle (for example) is also very crucial. The same goes for solidbodies, semi-acoustics, and hollowbodies. It is less apparent with solid bodies due to the myth of pickup and electronics being the basis for their tones. Solid bodies have more wood so the ratio to how much wood affects how much tone is much different.

If you are truly interested in learning about this I highly recommend a hands on class:
Luthiers School International (http://www.fleishmaninstruments.com/lsi.html)
Irvin Somogyi (http://www.esomogyi.com/classes.html)

Also for more information and a different perspective:
Dana Bourgeois on voicing a guitar (http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/voicing.htm)

~David

[Dirge]

Welcome Phil :)

Thanks for the details, I think it is a very interesting machine. I guess it goes to prove that they are just tools and it still takes someone that knows how to use them. I know I wouldn't mind learning how to run one.

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by scott
The CNC takes a lot of the grunt work out..........
In a few years it will be next to impossible to compete if you dont have one IMHO. The competition is fierce for sure.

www.heatleyguitars.com

I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

[Flavum]

A wonderful, educational and enlightening thread - sincerest thanks to all the talented luthiers that have contributed!

And now, a joke -

A luthier, having just won millions in the lottery, was asked what he would do with his winnings...

"I guess I'll just keep building guitars until the money runs out."

Ba-dum! (Yeah, it's an old one) Tom :)

[edwarddavis]

Eastwood guitars must really have a lot of fast machines and Workers.

The bottom line is you get what you pay for and if you love the guitar and it sounds great who cares how its made.

The basic work is done by a machine and the real work that separates the great guitars from crap is done by hand by people who care about each guitar they build , thats what make the Great guitars better than the Eastwoods.:mad:

[avenalee]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

+1

;-p

[moreeye]

I am not a guitar builder but I am a mechanical engineer so I'll try to explain the good tone issue from a mechanical engineers point of view.
There are many factors affecting the tone, some are major, some are minor. All of these factors are functions of the good tone. So,
Good tone = A x (body wood's structural (chemical) property)+B x (the body's architecture)+C x (neck wood's structural property) + D x ( neck's architectural property) + E x ( hardware) + F x (pickups) + etc. So you can use some ore one of those factors to equalize both sides of the equation, however for example if there is a big gap between both sides of equation, the factors that have minor effect will not be useful. But if you are very close to the equation, twitching those minor effects will bring you to the good tone easier.

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I'm with Scott on this one. Not to turn this into a political discussion but, as with many products, Chinese competition is changing the way guitar builders will have to go about their craft. This is in its infancy at the moment but in the next 10 years I think we will be surprised at the very high quality Chinese made guitars that will be available at very low prices. Not just Strat knockoffs but custom order instruments with top grade materials.

I think the real competition hasn't even started yet.

The Chinese are not an issue to us. Building a great guitar is. They said the same thing about the Japanese 25 years ago. I have a GP issue from the mid '70s somewhere with a round table discussion about the Japanese guitar makers.
Look where they are at now. They can't even afford to build guitars there any more than we can.
There wll always be educated and sophisticated guitar players who will appreciate a greta guitar.

[ChrisP]

Originally posted by philtone
Howdy all,




Welcome :D


Chris Padon

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by Ian Anderson
The Chinese are not an issue to us. Building a great guitar is. They said the same thing about the Japanese 25 years ago. I have a GP issue from the mid '70s somewhere with a round table discussion about the Japanese guitar makers.
Look where they are at now. They can't even afford to build guitars there any more than we can.
There wll always be educated and sophisticated guitar players who will appreciate a greta guitar.

I guess we will have to wait and see. At the moment China isn't a competitor in the high end market. Viewing China in the same light as Japan when it comes to manufacturing is a dangerous thing for most industries though. A google search will quickly show how much things have changed in the past 5 years for many industries. It is starting to bleed over to mid line guitars and amps and eventually will make its way to hi end instruments.

I'm not a luthier or music business expert, just a consumer. I have been in several music stores in the past year or so whose owners were amazed by the quality of some mid-line Chinese instruments. With some they commented that it made it almost impossible to sell the similar higher end item because the extra price wasn't worth it. It's only a matter of time before we are seeing USA PRS type product lines and quality coming from China for 50% of the price. It probably is a different story for a small shop that builds a handfull of guitars per week.

[Jon C]

Originally posted by David Myka
I wasn't discrediting Cumpiano's skill as a luthier. I am sure his guitars sound and play as wonderful as they look. The couple that I have played certainly sounded good and had a great feel to them.

What I was talking about was his premise that tap tuning (and I will not put it in quotes) is a not a valid approach to voicing a guitar. This he states is because the people he talked were not able to adequately describe their techniques or had bought into it the hype and were spouting inconsistencies. Much like how in this very thread all of the CNCs users emphasized the great extent to which their work is done by hand yet the CNC supporters went on to bash hand building. Some even slammed hand building and then went on to validate CNCs by stating how much hand work is still being done. Hype is a wild thing and is responsible for a lot of very interesting logic.

All quotes are referenced from the Cumpiano article on tap tuning (http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/twentythree.htm)

To quote Cumpiano:


The way he describes tap tuning is foolish. I would avoid claims like that myself. I have yet to meet a competent luthier using the technique suggest that tap tuning is simple and therefore not the product of hard earned experience. Nor do they suggest that tap tuning alone will produce a great guitar. And they most certainly do not suggest that if you tap tune an instrument that it will be great no matter what else you do. It is all about manipulating the subtleties of the guitar but I was never taught that I could learn this overnight. In fact I was told quite the opposite. Understanding what you are listening to and also understanding how it relates to the overall guitar takes time, experience, and experimentation.

When he describes tap tuners this is what he has to say:


Has anyone ever found the sweet spot on their amp before? You now it when you hear it don't you? This makes sense to me but I suppose it can be confusing. He then goes on to describe what it is that he does instead:



What exactly is he clearing up here that is in any more precise terminology? Not much, but I am not going to try and hang him on that one praragraph (especially since I agree with him). He does come to some sort of an epiphany in the end with this:



Thank you Jon C for urging me to take a closer look at his article. I would have missed his last point and misunderstood him completely. I do still believe that he doesn't get tap tuning since as I read through more of his articles he states this quite clearly. He does always seem to go back to saying that it works for some people so I have found some common ground with him there. I simply don't believe him about tap tuning.

I still stand by my statement however I will make it less personal. Understanding the techniques involved in tap tuning and knowing that they are built upon what most builders already agree upon I personally find it a superior method of voicing a guitar that produces superior results in my instruments. Having this experience I would not have a luthier without this understanding work for me. I would always know that I could have had more. Just an opinion but it is based on my exeperience as a builder and payer.

I think I should emphasize for those of you who are interested in the different methods people use to voice instruments that tap tuning (as far as I am understand it) is to be used to tune a guitar not just the soundboard. The soundboard along with the back offer the most fleixibility in terms of affecting tone but the construction of the bridge and saddle (for example) is also very crucial. The same goes for solidbodies, semi-acoustics, and hollowbodies. It is less apparent with solid bodies due to the myth of pickup and electronics being the basis for their tones. Solid bodies have more wood so the ratio to how much wood affects how much tone is much different.

If you are truly interested in learning about this I highly recommend a hands on class:
Luthiers School International (http://www.fleishmaninstruments.com/lsi.html)
Irvin Somogyi (http://www.esomogyi.com/classes.html)

Also for more information and a different perspective:
Dana Bourgeois on voicing a guitar (http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/voicing.htm)

~David

Thanks for your thoughts... I think behind the semantics you're probably close to what Bill is saying...

It sounds to me like you both generally agree that what's happening is the sum of some particular techniques honed & filtered through years of experience to find the "sweet spot."

Cheers,
Jon

[David Myka]

Originally posted by Jon C
Thanks for your thoughts... I think behind the semantics you're probably close to what Bill is saying...

It sounds to me like you both generally agree that what's happening is the sum of some particular techniques honed & filtered through years of experience to find the "sweet spot."

Cheers,
Jon

I was going to post some follow up thoughts after having some more time to think about all of this. I think you are right and that I was lost in semantics. It's easy to do and just about every article discussing these techniques suffers the same. It really seems to me to be the difference between left and right brain thinking. The left brain luthier is more likey to want to measure deflection and weigh the braces, or if they do use tap tuning they tune to a specific frequency. A right brain luthier will feel their way through most of the construction process and tune for optimum resonance and tone regardless of pitch. Pitch changes when you glue things together anyway so resonance seems more important to me especially after the guitar is glued together. As an example the data derived from measuring top deflection makes little sense to me but when I use thumb pressure to measure the same thing I get much more useful information. It's all about what you are able to see and hear and how you use and understand it.

Oh, and don't forget to align the grain of the wood with magnetic North while you carve ;)

~David

[Bruce Bennett]

Originally posted by sundaypunch
I guess we will have to wait and see. At the moment China isn't a competitor in the high end market. Viewing China in the same light as Japan when it comes to manufacturing is a dangerous thing for most industries though. A google search will quickly show how much things have changed in the past 5 years for many industries. It is starting to bleed over to mid line guitars and amps and eventually will make its way to hi end instruments.

I'm not a luthier or music business expert, just a consumer. I have been in several music stores in the past year or so whose owners were amazed by the quality of some mid-line Chinese instruments. With some they commented that it made it almost impossible to sell the similar higher end item because the extra price wasn't worth it. It's only a matter of time before we are seeing USA PRS type product lines and quality coming from China for 50% of the price. It probably is a different story for a small shop that builds a handfull of guitars per week.

I think your forgetting Eastman instruments,

Their Archtops have already been touted as being as good or better than instruments that cost 10 times their price. ( Acoustic Guitar Magazine) and frankly I agree,... they really are on par with many of the top flite American Archtop makers.

I still build use all hand tools.. Only because I'm not able to afford CNC machines at present. Ron Thorn has said it perfectly, so no need for me to say anyting more about it.
CNCs are here to stay and any luthier that doesn't or can't take advantage of them, will have a very hard time competeing in the future market place.

Guitar making is about love and commitment ( or maybe just being commited) there is little to no money in it. just enough to eat with and thats about it.
Warrior instruments is surviveing on only God knows what.
but whatever it is.. there seems to be room for all that wish to step up.

I will make one statement about CNCs that is think is cruitial,

Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.
a CNC never had that capability and never will. it just runs a program... if the operator puts a "bad piece of wood" in a CNC, it will turn out a "bad guitar" just as fast as a good one.
My point being;... CNC or handmade .. a great instrument... STARTS with a great luthier. and every luthier is NOT created equal. this is where the real debate is. not who is "best" but who can make the best guitar for YOUR purpose.

every luthier has a "theory" about how an instrument should be constructed. some of them I agree with.... many, I don't... but NONE of them are wrong.. only the results are different.
each players has to evaluate the luthiers ideas and hope he can build an instrument that will meet his personal needs.

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett
I will make one statement about CNCs that is think is cruitial,

Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.
a CNC never had that capability and never will. it just runs a program... if the operator puts a "bad piece of wood" in a CNC, it will turn out a "bad guitar" just as fast as a good one.
My point being;... CNC or handmade .. a great instrument... STARTS with a great luthier. and every luthier is NOT created equal. this is where the real debate is. not who is "best" but who can make the best guitar for YOUR purpose..

This statement is so obvious I don't understand why everyone doesn't get it instantly.

All a CNC machine does, really, is remove smaller pieces of wood from larger pieces. It truly is all about:

-1- selecting the wood;

-2- positioning it correctly for CNCing;

-3- determining and doing any necessary post-CNC adjustments by hand.

Come to think of it, what may give CNC a bad image with some is where mass manufacturers omit step 3 entirely. But that is absolutely never the case with guys like Thorn.

[matte]

Originally posted by tms13pin
So, I'm curious: who uses a CNC and who hand-builds the whole
way through. And if a CNC is used, for how much of the build
is it used (just body? neck? carves?).

I'm not interested in a discussion over which is better, I have
no problem with machines. I'm just curious about many of the
"boutique" builders and what they do. I'd also think it'd be
interesting if some of the builders would chime in and say why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better,
worse, the same, etc. since they've done so. I'm more
interested in the builders viewpoint here, not the buyers, as
I don't want to start an opinion war. I'm sure output is higher
with the CNC. How does it impact customization, etc. for you?
Does that really matter (may not be part of your business plan)?
How do you keep the quality up vs. Fender and Gibson....
major automation but very big names.

For instance, Driskill does everything by hand. PRS uses CNCs
for things (how much, I'm not sure), Brian Moore CNC's the
bodies (at least), blah blah. I don't really know about
Suhr, Anderson, McInturff, Lentz, etc. Soloway is all handmade,
right? How "custom" are you and are the really custom orders
(if you accept them) done completely by hand?

Lots of questions. Just trying to understand the small market
luthier industry a bit more. It's really been interesting since I
joined TGP to just lurk and see what players gush over, etc., and
I've learned about a lot of guitar (and amp) builders that I never
knew existed.

Thanks in advance for your comments and perspectives on this.

--Tom DFM. As a guy who has had guitars built to his specs by pretty much everyone (PRS, Grosh, Suhr, McInturff, Stevens, Baker, Hamer, JG, Koll come to mind immediately), from full on CNC to crazy analog, the devil is in the details. I know what I want, from soup to nuts, when it comes to guitars. Follow my recipe and I'll be happy. TBS, I'd love to have a guitar built by Bender.

[jtg116]

I've said this many times when this type of discussion comes up that, I got a deck made that cost as much as two JG guitars built by guys who could hardly read a ruler with about 25% of the cost deck in materials and it took a long weekend, while I can't go out and buy great guitars everytime I see one, who is overcharging for their skill and time? :confused:

[Chiba]

If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba

[matte]

Originally posted by Chiba
If it's something you can't do yourself, then you have to rely on people who can do it. If they charge to do the work that you can't do, then it's up to you to decide what you're willing to pay for that work. If you don't like the cost quote, go with somebody cheaper.

I'm lucky to be able to say that I know more than a few luthiers - some are guitar builders and others are highly skilled repairmen. There's only one I can think of that I consider truly overpriced, call it one out of 10 (and no, I won't say who it is, that would be rude).

You look at a guitar and think, 'Gee, that's way overpriced'. A luthier looks at one of his guitars and thinks, 'Electricity, water, heat, AC, food, rent for the storefront, mortgage, car payment, employee wages, health insurance, GI Joe w/Kung-Fu Grip for Petey, weekend getaway with the wife...' and so on.

Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender, which shows me who is REALLY overpriced.

--chiba :dude

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Chiba
Overpriced? I think the vast majority of the small builders, including the ones in this thread, could probably DOUBLE their prices and still be competitive against the custom shops from places like Gibson, PRS, and Fender ...

Wes, you knucklehead - of course we all know this but for crying out loud, don't tell the luthiers!!! :mad:

:D

[Zamm]

This question is mainly directed towards John Suhr, Ron Thorn and Joe Driskill. I am looking into taking classes on CAD and CAM I know you mentioned Rhino, the class teaches the programing on Autodesk
inventor and MasterCAM are these a good start? Can I switch to Rhino easliy after autodesk inventor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated the final sign up date is coming up and I want to make sure the classes are worth it. I can't wait to learn!

[KHK]

Originally posted by Bruce Bennett
Wood is about as inconsistent a material as you could ever hope to find. no matter how great the machineing processes are,.. a great guitar starts with a luthier that can "read" his material and knows how to pick and choose the pieces that will provide the best possible instrument.


A good intellectual and practical argument for tone tapping above. Cutting all wood precisely to consistant dimensions ignores the biggest variable...the wood.

No two trees will produce wood that is identical in density, weight, grain etc which could/should affect resonance/tone. They will not be the same age, may not come from the same location, growing conditions a half state away will create more/less stress and yield differences...you name it, there are many, many variables. The density and weight of a given blank might vary from linear inch to linear inch. Having worked with a lot of wood over the past 10 yrs., I can imagine why "tuning" wood by hand and ear could yield audible results.

Also, to understand the 'by hand" vs machine comparison, you have to rule out the cutting process itself as having any impact on tone. All wood is cut by a blade...even Saul's teeth are blades and it is a process of removing material. The only thing that would affect the sound is what is left when you are done cutting and after it is finish sanded. Then, it would be dimensions, fit and the individual qualities of the material that would dictate the results (IMO). If everything were dimensioned "by hand", then you would expect more variability but the individual qualities of the wood will determine whether that is a bad thing.

An even bigger variable is how we as individuals perceive the finished product. Just look at all of the tone (guitar and amp) posts on the board. The so-so guitar that you just sold may be the buyers holy grail.

Starting with quality materials and paying attention to the details seems to be a constant amongst all of the builders who have posted here. On an intellectual level, I like the notion of the final dimensioning of a body (top + bottom) being done by ear. Regardless, having looked at examples of their work, I have nothing but admiration for the builders who contributed to this thread. Beautiful instruments!

[Ian Anderson]

Originally posted by Zamm
This question is mainly directed towards John Suhr, Ron Thorn and Joe Driskill. I am looking into taking classes on CAD and CAM I know you mentioned Rhino, the class teaches the programing on Autodesk
inventor and MasterCAM are these a good start? Can I switch to Rhino easliy after autodesk inventor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated the final sign up date is coming up and I want to make sure the classes are worth it. I can't wait to learn!

You are on the right track with Mastercam. It's a great tool for both the cad and the cam. You can do it all with that program.

Once you have learned to draw, it's not too difficult to pick up a new program. I started in Autocad. I am not familiar with inventor, I imagine it's a more surfaces and solids oriented program?

[Luca Z]

Coming back