At what point is someone being 'ripped off'?

[Travst]

There seems to be a lot of ill will here that's directed at people who are 'ripping people off'. Take a look at the American Pickers thread and many others. A lot of what I've read provokes no such reaction in me, because I see no reason not to take profits and I understand the expenses associated with running a business, since I've owned one. However, I do draw a line between fair profit and cheating others. I couldn't buy the fabled burst from the little old lady whose husband died and left it in the closet for $100, for instance. I'd have to help her out in selling it instead. But, I look for deals and try to make a little profit when I can.

I'm curious - at what point (profit percentage, etc.) is someone being ripped off? I realize it's hard to define exactly, but take a stab at it.

[Ruraltom]

I dunno.... short of subterfuge, like selling a known fake as something it isn't or your example of cheating someone by buying it for VASTLY less than it's -unknown to them-value, everything's fair game in my book.

Then on the other hand I've bought a couple things over the years that were super-fantastic deals... stolen? stupid? I dunno.... they say one is born every minute, whose fault is that?

[Amp360]

when tgp decides you make enough that you don't deserve any right to get a deal then you're a heartless demon for trying to save a few bucks - and you're dishonest.

[pickaguitar]

Rip off? Selling your gibson, fender, etc more than 65% of the new price (unless it's vintage or a collectable of course).
It's used and has depreciated just like a car. If in good shape...just over half the new price would be fair

[RhytmEarl]

Ok, here's a good example for discussion.

I bought a 1965 Jazz Bass, candy apple red, with matching headstock and original case, in VERY used but not abused condition, all original, for $350.

The seller was a music store. The owner of the store was the original owner of the bass and was selling it because he had had a stroke and was no longer playing.

Did I get a steal? Yes. Did I steal it? I think "no".

[Jube2550]

I rip myself off when I sell gear since I am not in the business of profiteering. What gets me is when the buyer lowballs even further than my altruistic selling price.:FM

[tiktok]

I ask people how much they want for something. If it's worth that to me, I buy it. \

If I know of a guy who's been looking for that exactly color or model and would be willing to pay more, I'm under no obligation to let either party know of the other's existence.

If someone asks me where they can get the best price for something, I tell them, even if that puts it out of my reach. I buy stuff to enjoy it, not to flip it for profit.

[Guitar Josh]

There are two schools of thought:

1) Morality - It's wrong to take advantage of a situation where you have the distinct upper hand.

2) Lack of Personalty - It's not wrong to pay someone what they are asking, even if what they are asking is objectively insufficient.

I again refer the board to the story of a good friend who helped an old secretary at his mother's work while home from break. She said that if he cleaned her attic, he could have the "old guitar" that was somewhere in it. Apparently, her husband/son bought the thing about two weeks before they were called to war and never played the thing again.

What he found was an older Gibson in very nearly new condition. Realizing that he shouldn't take a small fortune for $100 in work, he instead helped her to sell it.

His reward? A trip to the guitar store and his pick of the liter. At that point, he had no problem picking out one of the most expensive, a LPC in white he still has and loves.

Apply the two tests above and come to your own conclusion. I think he did what was right, but the real question is - what's the limit? What if the guitar was only an American Standard Strat in new condition? Do you keep it?

We can play ethics all day long and come out six ways from Sunday.

The only true answer is whatever you can fall asleep to at the end of the day.

[rbnum1fan]

There is no excuse for not knowing the value of your items.a few clicks of the mouse and the information you seek will be found. I recently bought the medals of a WW2 vet whose family were selling them. the grandson had inherited them and in so many words said they were 'junk taking up space' . Becasue he had no respect or value for these medals or the memory of his grandfather i offered him a great deal less than the actual monetary value. we both left the deal happy. did i rip him off? i think not

[Guitar Josh]

There is no excuse for not knowing the value of your items.a few clicks of the mouse and the information you seek will be found. I recently bought the medals of a WW2 vet whose family were selling them. the grandson had inherited them and in so many words said they were 'junk taking up space' . Becasue he had no respect or value for these medals or the memory of his grandfather i offered him a great deal less than the actual monetary value. we both left the deal happy. did i rip him off? i think not

I think you can make a pretty good argument that you helped him rip off the rest of his family.

It's a cop out to say that there is "no excuse." It's unreasonable to expect older persons to have any real knowledge of how to research via the internet. Our generation takes that stuff for granted.

[Julia343]

Rip off? Selling your gibson, fender, etc more than 65% of the new price (unless it's vintage or a collectable of course).
It's used and has depreciated just like a car. If in good shape...just over half the new price would be fair

Ooops. I ripped someone off. I sold a Peavey amp at 73% new. It was neither a collectable or vintage. It was in mint condition. :hide2 I advertised it at $____ or best offer. I got the asking price I never thought I'd get. OMG!! I'm supposed to say

Vendor: No, no, no, come on, do it properly!
Brian: What?
Vendor: Haggle properly, this isn't worth nineteen!
Brian: Well, you just said it was worth twenty!
Vendor: Oh dear, oh dear. Come on: haggle!
Brian: Uh, all right, I'll give you ten.
Vendor: That's more like it! Ten? Are you trying to insult
me? Me, with a poor dying grandmother? Ten!?
Brian: All right, I'll give you eleven!
Vendor: Now you're getting it. Eleven!? Did I hear you
right? Eleven? This cost me twelve, you want to ruin me?
Brian: Seventeen?
Vendor: No, no, no, no, "seventeen"!
Brian: Eighteen?
Vendor: No, no, no, you've got to fourteen now.
Brian: All right, I'll give you fourteen.
Vendor: Fourteen!? Are you joking?
Brian: That's what you told me to say!
Vendor: Oh, dear...
Brian: Oh, tell me what to say, please!
Vendor: Offer me fourteen.
Brian: I'll give you fourteen.
Vendor: He's offering me fourteen for this!
Brian: Fifteen!
Vendor: Seventeen. My last word, I won't take a penny less,
or strike me dead.
Brian: Sixteen!
Vendor: Done! Nice to do business with you.

[pickaguitar]

Well there ya go...some exclusions exist :)
Good for you Julia!

[EricPeterson]

I am generally in the camp of Seller offers item for sale at X price, if I am willing to pay X price I buy it. Now if there is a serious difference in information, like the little old lady described above I would feel differently, but for 95% of transactions if someone is willing to sell it and I am willing to buy it, I see no issue.

[Ruraltom]

I think you can make a pretty good argument that you helped him rip off the rest of his family.

Really? He inherited them, they were his to do with as he pleased. Whether that was because no one else cared or knew their 'value' or the grandfather wanted HIM to have them.

It's a cop out to say that there is "no excuse." It's unreasonable to expect older persons to have any real knowledge of how to research via the internet. Our generation takes that stuff for granted.

Well, it was the grandson's choice to make and he prolly could have found the value if he was so inclined.

[Amp360]

why would someone want medals that were not theirs or a family members?

[Ruraltom]

why would someone want medals that were not theirs or a family members?

There is a collector for every possible thing you can imagine... WWII buff? US military collector? shiny metal medal collector? squirrel?

[hk45acp]

why would someone want medals that were not theirs or a family members?

Miscreants use old war medals to con people all the time

[bigdaddy]

1) Morality - It's wrong to take advantage of a situation where you have the distinct upper hand.

This is a perverted sense of morality up to which no man could ever live. We all take advantage of situations where we have the upper hand. The distinction you are trying to make is one of scale and presupposes that you know what is best for the other party. Your compulsion to try do this is admirable, but you presupposition is arrogant.

Value is a perception. We all assign value differently to different things. Deal or No Deal is a great illustration of this, which is why statisticians and economists studied it. I'll try to provide an example:

Which is more valuable, a mint condition '59 Gold Top or a run of the mill life preserver? The Gold Top, right? Let's assume you just fell of a ship into the North Atlantic, now, which is more valuable.

[RhytmEarl]

This is a perverted sense of morality up to which no man could ever live. We all take advantage of situations where we have the upper hand. The distinction you are trying to make is one of scale and presupposes that you know what is best for the other party. Your compulsion to try do this is admirable, but you presupposition is arrogant.

Value is a perception. We all assign value differently to different things. Deal or No Deal is a great illustration of this, which is why statisticians and economists studied it. I'll try to provide an example:

Which is more valuable, a mint condition '59 Gold Top or a run of the mill life preserver? The Gold Top, right? Let's assume you just fell of a ship into the North Atlantic, now, which is more valuable.

And that 59 gold top is a likely "one of".

[Amp360]

if I fell of teh boat in a lake I would rather have teh lp

[Peteyvee]

I have a close friend who saw an ad in the local throw out paper classifieds (when they were worth something) for an "old guitar, green with black case $100 obo" in an upscale neighborhood in LA. He calls the phone number (from a payphone, LOL) and this older woman said "Yes it's still for sale, come on over".

When we got there, the woman pulls out a new '66 Tele in Teal Green with the hang tags still on it. This was in 2001. We just stared at it in disbelief. He tells her it's worth a lot more than a hundred dollars. She asks "how much?". He told her it's worth a few thousand and he'd like to buy it, but only had $500. I just sat there amazed at his (apparent) stupidity. She said "Do you play? Please play me a song". He did and she sold it to him for the $500. Her reasoning? It belonged to an ex-husband that she hated anyway and since my friend was honest with her, she thought he should have it. He sold it to Norm Harris a year or two later for $6K...

[Peteyvee]

if I fell of teh boat in a lake I would rather have teh lp

Me too. Do LP's float? I've never had the balls to find out, but I'm a good swimmer anyway, so a one-off custom order '59 factory goldtop would be the ticket...;)

[tonedaddy]

I'm curious - at what point (profit percentage, etc.) is someone being ripped off? I realize it's hard to define exactly, but take a stab at it.

Impossible to generalize if you're doing it as a business.

It could depend on so many things, such as:


the risks the item represents (will it work, is it fake, how long will it take to sell it, will it degrade/spoil)
the specific expenses you have in aquiring the item
research & development costs
your overhead
standard profit margins in your industry
is the product or market for it seasonal
do you sell wholesale or retail
the volume of items you sell
the life cycle of the product
are there service/replacement part profits available after the sale
is the product designed to become obsolete with replacement sales virtually guaranteed/necessary
does your industry require you to be the low cost producer to be viable long-term
any non-monetary hassle factors for both buyer and seller


.....and that's just off the top of my head. The list could be endless.

You could be getting an extraordinary profit at a 3% margin in one instance/business, and lose money at 75% margin in another.


BUT
A wise businessman once told me the very best negotiations result in both sides feeling like they didn't get everything they want. Meaning, both sides had to give up a little, and leave a little bit on the table for the other party.

I'd say as a quick & dirty rule for coming up with a fair profit margin, that's about as good a strategy as you can find.

[bigdaddy]

I feel like you didn't read my post. Yup, I'm sure of it.

Next time, don't take things out of context, because you end up with stuff like this:



All words in your post, taken out of context.

Guilty. Apparently on both counts.

[Guitar Josh]

Guilty. Apparently on both counts.

:rotflmao

:bow

Well done sir :)

[Cobb]

The feeling I get from some of the recent posts are that unless you purchase something at an auction somebody is getting ripped off.

When the seller and buyer both AGREE on a price nobody is getting ripped off.

[frankthomson]

The feeling I get from some of the recent posts are that unless you purchase something at an auction somebody is getting ripped off.

When the seller and buyer both AGREE on a price nobody is getting ripped off.
.......yep!!!;)

[rbnum1fan]

I think you can make a pretty good argument that you helped him rip off the rest of his family.

It's a cop out to say that there is "no excuse." It's unreasonable to expect older persons to have any real knowledge of how to research via the internet. Our generation takes that stuff for granted.

I would have paid the vet twice the value of the medals.
The vet had passed on and his grandson called the decorations his brave grandfather earned 'junk' . I saw no reason to pay him full value on something he regarded as 'junk'

[rbnum1fan]

why would someone want medals that were not theirs or a family members?

i collect Military Medals from all countries,with a subfocus on named groupings. The medals and award certificates of the brave vet have a hallowed special place in my home.

[2HBStrat]

Ok, here's a good example for discussion.

I bought a 1965 Jazz Bass, candy apple red, with matching headstock and original case, in VERY used but not abused condition, all original, for $350.

The seller was a music store. The owner of the store was the original owner of the bass and was selling it because he had had a stroke and was no longer playing.

Did I get a steal? Yes. Did I steal it? I think "no".

Interesting story. I happened to be in a local music store when a customer brought in a '65 Jazz Bass, candy apple red with matching headstock, practically mint condition. He wanted to trade this "old bass" for a brand new Peavey bass. The store owner said he would trade for $20, "just to make the trade." Was he, as the store owner and a Fender afficianado and musically knowledgeable, oblidged to tell this customer what he had?

...The only true answer is whatever you can fall asleep to at the end of the day.

I agree!

...He sold it to Norm Harris a year or two later for $6K...

...who probably sold it the next day for $12K...

[DGTCrazy]

My parents owned an Antique Shop, and were always going to Estate Sales to buy stuff. Time and time again, people would sell items that they had absolutely no idea of the value.

In one instance, my mom bought a music box being sold full of "junk jewelry". It cost her $5, and a watch inside was later appraised to be worth over $4000.

Unless someone is under duress, or mentally incapacitated ( and it is obvious or known) the buyer has no legal obligation to inform the seller of the true value of an item, as Due Dilligence is incumbent upon the seller prior to listing an item for sale.

That being said, I have let guys know ( on my local Craigslist) when the are significantly undervaluing a piece of gear. The last time was for a boutique amp. That was my choice alone. I still got the amp too. I'm not paid to judge other people, but I do choose friends who relate to my way of treating others. It's easier that way.

[cruisemates]

You are ripping someone off when they ask you "Do you know how much it is really worth?" before you buy it and you answer with a false representation in order to get what we call a "steal of a deal."

Say the lady has the 'burst and you say you want to buy it and she asks you, "well, how much is it worth?"

If you say, "well, I know its only worth a few hundred dollars" you are definitely ripping someone off. This happened to me recently with an antique radio. They guy who wanted to buy it told me it was only worth about $50, but he may have sold it for $800. I was a sucker to believe him, but he was a friend of a friend, etc.

Basically, you should never sell to the same person who is telling you what it is worth, because they may lie.

But if you told her the truth, and then said "but it takes quite awhile to find a full price buyer, so I will sell it for you and take a percentage" then you are being very honest and deserve to make something off of it.

It is NEVER stealing if the person selling knows the true value of it going in - because retailing for full price takes work. Retailers buy at wholesale and sell at retail, and if you don't understand that concept you are just plain high.

If you have something valuable and you expect to get full value for it you also have to put in the required work to find out and sell it for that full value. If you are lazy you may get ripped off. I am not saying you deserve it, but you should be aware that "lowballing" is not a crime.

What if you disliked your neighbor for several legitimate reasons - his dogs poops in your lawn, his kid gave your kid a black eye, his garbage blows all over your back yard, his septic tank overflowed into your living room and he sued you for a stupid property line dispute. What if he asks you what a "59 sunburst" is worth?

What would you say? What does he deserve (the guy is obviously a leech on society).

[Trout]

You are ripping someone off when they ask you "Do you know how much it is really worth?" before you buy it and you answer with a false representation in order to get what we call a "steal of a deal."

Say the lady has the 'burst and you say you want to buy it and she asks you, "well, how much is it worth?"

If you say, "well, I know its only worth a few hundred dollars" you are definitely ripping someone off. This happened to me recently with an antique radio. They guy who wanted to buy it told me it was only worth about $50, but he may have sold it for $800. I was a sucker to believe him, but he was a friend of a friend, etc.

Basically, you should never sell to the same person who is telling you what it is worth, because they may lie.

But if you told her the truth, and then said "but it takes quite awhile to find a full price buyer, so I will sell it for you and take a percentage" then you are being very honest and deserve to make something off of it.

It is NEVER stealing if the person selling knows the true value of it going in - because retailing for full price takes work. Retailers buy at wholesale and sell at retail, and if you don't understand that concept you are just plain high.

If you have something valuable and you expect to get full value for it you also have to put in the required work to find out and sell it for that full value. If you are lazy you may get ripped off. I am not saying you deserve it, but you should be aware that "lowballing" is not a crime.

What if you disliked your neighbor for several legitimate reasons - his dogs poops in your lawn, his kid gave your kid a black eye, his garbage blows all over your back yard, his septic tank overflowed into your living room and he sued you for a stupid property line dispute. What if he asks you what a "59 sunburst" is worth?

What would you say? What does he deserve (the guy is obviously a leech on society).

That is the #1 mistake, you never answer the " How much is it worth" Question since you are not an appraiser, you are a bargain hunter, you only reply
" I will give you $XX.XX "

End of story.

[Twangzilla]

I always have to laugh at the people that claim that "american pickers" or "pawn stars", etc are "ripping people off".

Everybody should know it is a TV show first of all. They still seem to be on the generous side considering they have to resale the items. They usually give people 50% of resale value, if not more. What do you think retailers pay for the new items that they sell you?

So these people that are claiming "ripoff" expect people to pay for a store front or drive around in a van with an annoying fat dude or a condescending dick with no profit involved. Just for the love of it, I guess. I figure they have no concept of how the real world works.

[shando98]

I sell plastic resin for a living. I spend several hours every day educating myself on everything plastic. I spend several hours a day maintaining contacts in the industry.

If a warehouse calls me saying they are getting rid of 20,000 pounds of material and they are looking for $0.50 per pound and I know it sells for $1.04 per pound, I will offer them $0.47 per pound and then try and sell it for $0.95 per pound. I feel that I earned that $0.48 by putting in countless hours making myself an expert, and building and maintaining relationships. That warehouse may never sell that material because they don't know who to sell it to, or what it is. My experience and knowledge is rare, and I sleep fine at night knowing that this is how I am compensated for it. They made money, I made money, and the end user saved money. All parties benefitted from the deal.

Did I rip the warehouse off? What if somebody quit paying storage fees so they ended up with this material for free. They made $10,000 profit.

What if they lost $10,000 on it? Is it any of my business? No.

[Trout]

I always have to laugh at the people that claim that "american pickers" or "pawn stars", etc are "ripping people off".

Everybody should know it is a TV show first of all. They still seem to be on the generous side considering they have to resale the items. They usually give people 50% of resale value, if not more. What do you think retailers pay for the new items that they sell you?

So these people that are claiming "ripoff" expect people to pay for a store front or drive around in a van with an annoying fat dude or a condescending dick with no profit involved. Just for the love of it, I guess. I figure they have no concept of how the real world works.

+1

A couple years ago we drove nearly 18,000 miles in just one auction season. 3 years and over 50,000 miles. That is a heck of a lot of gas, not to mention vehicle expenses, tires, brakes and so on.
Every nickle and dime counts on both ends.

We have really cut back the past couple years due to fuel prices, long gone are the 3 day weekends covering an 600 mile radius.
We only hit select sales now, ones that we can confirm having the items we search for.
Just to make back the cost of the vehicle was a challenge.

[Bluedawg]

I always have to laugh at the people that claim that "american pickers" or "pawn stars", etc are "ripping people off".

Everybody should know it is a TV show first of all. They still seem to be on the generous side considering they have to resale the items. They usually give people 50% of resale value, if not more. What do you think retailers pay for the new items that they sell you?

So these people that are claiming "ripoff" expect people to pay for a store front or drive around in a van with an annoying fat dude or a condescending dick with no profit involved. Just for the love of it, I guess. I figure they have no concept of how the real world works.


People don't seem to get the concept that resellers like pawn stars and american pickers are providing a service ...

They pay cash for useless pieces of junk and help open up space in a closet, garage, or barn. Sometimes they even haul off the junk as part of their service.


They then turn that "junk" around and deliver it someone who values it and may even put it to good use.

Why should they not profit from their efforts?

:huh

[Bluedawg]

My parents owned an Antique Shop, and were always going to Estate Sales to buy stuff. Time and time again, people would sell items that they had absolutely no idea of the value.

In one instance, my mom bought a music box being sold full of "junk jewelry". It cost her $5, and a watch inside was later appraised to be worth over $4000.

Unless someone is under duress, or mentally incapacitated ( and it is obvious or known) the buyer has no legal obligation to inform the seller of the true value of an item, as Due Dilligence is incumbent upon the seller prior to listing an item for sale.

That being said, I have let guys know ( on my local Craigslist) when the are significantly undervaluing a piece of gear. The last time was for a boutique amp. That was my choice alone. I still got the amp too. I'm not paid to judge other people, but I do choose friends who relate to my way of treating others. It's easier that way.

My mom runs an antique store with her sister.

Mom once bought two ratty old pictures for $10 ..... I'm sure she was thinking of trying to sell them for $50 or maybe a little more .... or settle for $20 if she had to

Antique road show came to town and appraised them at $10,000 each.

She sent them to NYC for auction and got about $2500 for one and about $4000 for the other.

I'd bet the buyer turned them around and sold them for even more

:munch

[Trout]

My mom runs an antique store with her sister.

Mom once bought two ratty old pictures for $10 ..... I'm sure she was thinking of trying to sell them for $50 or maybe a little more .... or settle for $20 if she had to

Antique road show came to town and appraised them at $10,000 each.

She sent them to NYC for auction and got about $2500 for one and about $4000 for the other.

I'd bet the buyer turned them around and sold them for even more

:munch

Art is an especially risky investment for resellers though, at any moment a painting can fall from $40,000 to $8000.

We have 2 rare oils from an American impressionist ( Will Howe Foote ) about 5 years ago we thought about selling them for $30,000 each
Money was not the factor so we decided to hold them. (we got them free)
Well, the bottom fell out of the impressionist market, last offer we received was 3000 each.
It is starting to recover now according to prices we follow on Christie's site, but it is not anything remotely close to to 5-6 years ago.

Similarly sized Foote Oils

Lot 32
Will Howe Foote (1874-1965)
Young Italian Girl
oil on canvas
24 x 20in. (61.9 x 51.4cm.)
estimate $7,000 - $10,000 / price realized $17,250

Lot 33
Will Howe Foote (1874-1965)
Irises
oil on canvas
24 x 24in. (61.7 x 61.7cm.)
estimate $6,000 - $8,000 / price realized $14,950

[84superchamp]

Rip off? Selling your gibson, fender, etc more than 65% of the new price (unless it's vintage or a collectable of course).
It's used and has depreciated just like a car. If in good shape...just over half the new price would be fair

this is sad news. looks like if you're investing in a guitar01k, don't buy new. like i did.

the only rip off i can picture is flat out stealing..promising to sell something, getting the money and never shipping the product. every other situation consists of a dumb buyer or dumb seller.

[Twangzilla]

My mom runs an antique store with her sister.

Mom once bought two ratty old pictures for $10 ..... I'm sure she was thinking of trying to sell them for $50 or maybe a little more .... or settle for $20 if she had to

Antique road show came to town and appraised them at $10,000 each.

She sent them to NYC for auction and got about $2500 for one and about $4000 for the other.

I'd bet the buyer turned them around and sold them for even more

:munch

Your mom totally got ripped off!!! Everything should be bought at full appraised value, otherwise the buyers are taking advantage of poor defenseless people.:cry:;)

[crosse79]

My take is this, if a person does not know the value or have not took the effort to find out the value of something that is with them for xx number of years, there is an unlikely chance that they will ever do.

Asking a sale price which is agreed by both the seller and buyer is considered fair. If the person is willing to sell it for that amount, then why is it being considered a ripoff?
The only time where the line is crossed is when you know the value far exceeds the price being asked and you still go ahead to haggle the price. That's dishonesty.

[bluesjuke]

Rip off? Selling your gibson, fender, etc more than 65% of the new price (unless it's vintage or a collectable of course).
It's used and has depreciated just like a car. If in good shape...just over half the new price would be fair


GC will give you that buying it outright.

I bought a guitar here that I know the seller made a $400. profit on.
I bought it for a good used market value and he got a good deal on it.
We're both happy.

[Bluedawg]

Your mom totally got ripped off!!! Everything should be bought at full appraised value, otherwise the buyers are taking advantage of poor defenseless people.:cry:;)


Heh

Yeah she was really upset at those low ball auctions :D

That's the antique business, though ....

My mom is happy to sell something for $25 bucks when it cost her $5 ...

even when she knows the person who paid $25 will likely take it back to their antique store/booth and sell it for $100.

In these types of businesses you only get top dollar when your the expert who knows how to get some obscure set of items to the people willing to pay full value for them. Unless your just lucky ...

:bonk

[doublea]

Rip off? Selling your gibson, fender, etc more than 65% of the new price (unless it's vintage or a collectable of course).
It's used and has depreciated just like a car. If in good shape...just over half the new price would be fair

I just sold a R9 for 124% of what I bought it new for. I guess that wasn't fair to the extremely happy buyer.

[jtm622]

If, at the close of the transaction, both the buyer and the seller are satisfied - then no one has been "ripped off"... Keep in mind that it is incumbent upon the "seller" to establish the sale price for an item that they've put on the market - it is not the duty of the "buyer" to establish it for him - particularly in those cases of "collectibles", where the intrinsic value of an item is usually of minor importance...

IMO, If "caveat emptor" is a valid concept for the "buyer" in a transaction, then it must be equally valid for the "seller"...

[Funky Chicken]

As a seller, what I paid (or did not pay) for an item I am selling is immaterial to what it should sell for. If I inherit a house or if I buy at the peak of the market it is still worth what someone is willing to pay for itat the point I offer it for sale-no more and no less.
I don't think a seller ever gets ripped off. They made the decision to offer the item for sale at whatever price they were willing to accept. If they did not do the due diligence, shame on them. I don't go knocking on doors trying to find stuff for sale-I respond to ADS placed by SELLERS.
I think a buyer gets ripped off if he purchases something that is not "as described" by the seller-that can mean condition other than represented, replaced parts, or an outright fake. The responsibility falls on the seller to be as accurate as they can when describing the item for sale and on the buyer to know what they are looking at.