Swing in Jazz Guitar Lines

[Lolaviola]

My teacher asked me to stop "swinging" when I played single note lines.
He told me "Wes didn't swing, Grant didn't swing, it's very straight."
Well, this puzzles me, but I think I can hear what he means...
What do you guys think?

[brad347]

I agree that most of the players we think of as 'swinging' did not stagger their eighth notes-- at least not by very much, and at least not past a certain time period.

The word "swing" means something different to me... to me, swing isn't about staggering eighth notes-- it's about making the time feel danceable. In that sense, Wes, Grant, etc. swing like crazy. But they didn't usually tend to stagger their eighth notes.

Syncopated accents can seem to create that illusion sometimes, I guess, but I really don't know where that whole idea came from. Really listen-- slow down the tape if you have to. The eighth notes usually remain fairly even most of the time, at least for the players whose time feel I enjoy the most. There are times when you will hear triplet figures-- even sometimes with the first two tied together-- but these very often occur in the context of a lot of eighth notes that are more even in nature.

Slower-medium tempos often/usually move closer toward a triplet feeling, and so you hear these triplet figures more, as a broad generalization. But you will still hear even eighth notes in this context, and it's extremely rare to hear a long series of tied-triplet "long short" figures. I just don't hear it much.

For an example, listen to "The Come Back" from the record Count Basie Swings, Joe Williams Sings.-- one of my favorites. Unfortunately it's not on youtube, so you'll have to cough up the 99 cents.

It's a slow-medium swing (right at that tempo where it could almost have shades of a 6/8 or triplet feeling). Listen to Joe's phrasing, the orchestra's phrasing during their figures, and Frank Foster's phrasing. You'll hear a lot of figures you might hear if the feeling was a 6/8... triplety figures... but you will also hear many straight 8ths and straight 16ths.

(as a bonus, this is also one of my favorite Freddie Green recordings!)

There are exceptions to everything, though.

Basically, this will all sort itself out if you listen a whole lot to really great records by really great artists. You will 'hear it.' It's hard to really intellectualize this stuff too much and have it 'stick.' It's not really about 'following directions' as much as it's about gaining experience and learning the language.

[brad347]

I think he might be referring to Charlie Parker-type 8th notes as opposed to Louis Armstrong-type 8th notes.

I don't really get what you're saying with this. Louis Armstrong typically had very 'modern' 8th notes. Usually pretty even in terms of time value, masterfully syncopated, swinging accents. Very ahead-of-his-time.

In fact, in my opinion that's what separates his time feel from the clarinetist in this recording:

Dig especially the vocal chorus! One of my favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ-8LuHbcHA

Louis was the swingingest of anyone, and as forward-looking as anyone. Truly one of the greatest of the 20th century.

[russ6100]

My teacher asked me to stop "swinging" when I played single note lines.
He told me "Wes didn't swing, Grant didn't swing, it's very straight."
Well, this puzzles me, but I think I can hear what he means...
What do you guys think?

Wes swung. Grant swung. They just didn't have that exaggerated dotted-eight, "doop-dee doop-dee doop" Band-in-a-Box crappy time-feel.

[Poppa Stoppa]

Interesting. I think what happens is that as the tempo rises it gets harder & harder to play swung eighths so everybody moves towards straight eighths, even the great players, and the ear accepts it. Nothin' sounds finer, IMHO, than a player with great time playing swung eighths.

[brad347]

Interesting. I think what happens is that as the tempo rises it gets harder & harder to play swung eighths so everybody moves towards straight eighths, even the great players, and the ear accepts it. Nothin' sounds finer, IMHO, than a player with great time playing swung eighths.

Can you post an example (youtube, whatever) of what you feel are great-feeling swung eights?

[Jay Mitchell]

"Wes didn't swing?" Uhh, what Bizarro world are we talking about here?

TRsMzCnQNpo&feature=related

Swinging isn't the result of observing a rigid triplet (or dotted-eight/sixteenth) feel, it's the result of creating a flowing (and often varied) offset between successive eighth (or sixteenth) notes. It's the tension/relaxation of the rhythmic interaction between the different instruments. It's hard to define rigorously, but you can damn sure tell when the players are swinging (and when they aren't).

Here's in interesting study of the eighth-note offset ratio of different drummers at different tempi:

http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/friberg.html

[brad347]

"Wes didn't swing?" Uhh, what Bizarro world are we talking about here?

Again, we have to be precise in our definition of the terms. The OP was clearly talking about staggering the eighth notes, or giving a longer time value to the downbeat than the offbeat.

The video you posted of Wes is great (Love Wes!), and illustrates what it sounds like when a soloist plays with eighth notes of very even time value (i.e., same duration for downbeats and upbeats), but plays in a way that creates a danceable time feeling. Wes is not staggering his eighths at all in the video, but it 'swings' like crazy!

[Jay Mitchell]

The video you posted of Wes is great (Love Wes!), and illustrates what it sounds like when a soloist plays with eighth notes of very even time value (i.e., same duration for downbeats and upbeats)I disagree that Wes is playing straight eighths. Most of his eighth notes in the clip are staggered to some extent, just not in the precise quarter note + eighth with a 3 over the pair that is often used to define a "swing feel." The amount by which they are staggered varies - sometimes becoming zero (straight eighths) - but it's there.

[brad347]

really? I don't hear it that way at all. They sound like perfectly even, syncopated-accented eighths to me. "Swinging" as hell, but not 'staggered,' to my ear.

[Justin518]

Yeah man I think it's pretty ridiculous to say wes and grant didn't swing considering the entire basis around good jazz is how hard the band is able to swing. The swing these guys are playing may not be so exaggerated but it's just built into the lines they were playing due to the chromaticism. Find/transcribe a line from one of these guys that involves some sort of chromatic line (most of them will) and try to play it as straight as you possibly can. You will notice it will give the illusion that it is 'swingin' just because of the phrasing and the chromaticism.

Justin

[scottl]

This is so important. The accenting. Wes was a master at getting this accenting. He also extensively played triplet phrases, just not in this solo. Benson does too. Triplets over the bar line is a great sound.syncopated-accented

[buddastrat]

"Wes didn't swing?" Uhh, what Bizarro world are we talking about here?

TRsMzCnQNpo&feature=related

]

That's an excellent vid. Great shot of his technique. Man what a cool feel. All I'll add, is the way he played and you can see right there, is much like Django's and the gypsy style approach- ample use of downstrokes especially on string changes. Not that they didn't use upstrokes, of course they did, but favoring downpicking for much gives a certain feel that's sort've inbetween or the stiffer swing feel. I hear a similar style swing between them. Because Wes used his thumb, and much downstrokes, especially on the string changes it gives that certain feel. Try it out, use your thumb and play some eighth note licks at similar tempo, the swing eights become a little straighter to my ears. When you make your right hand perform in a similar manner, you get a similar result. Like the saying goes....It's all in the wrist.

[brad347]

I'm not saying Satchmo wasn't one of the most swinging players ever, but I am saying that he and Bird swung differently. I think that's what the guitar teacher was referring to.

I do agree that they had individual time feels like ALL players have individual time feels. I'm just not sure what the conclusion is from that. Care to elaborate more? How would you characterize Armstrong's time feel/swing vis a vis Parker's?

[russ6100]

I do agree that they had individual time feels like ALL players have individual time feels. I'm just not sure what the conclusion is from that. Care to elaborate more? How would you characterize Armstrong's time feel/swing vis a vis Parker's?

Individuals each having great time-feels in their own right is very interesting. Transcribing some Wes was a major revelation for me because it became evident to that his time is all over the place, and yet he's got one of the greatest time-feels of all time. There was a point in time when I thought that a player had to have that Lester Young - Billie Holiday thing going on in their time, or it wasn't happening. But really, even in just the realm of jazz, there are so many time-feels that I enjoy, and consider to "swing". A lot ECM-ish stuff (I know - pretty vague) get's criticized for not swinging, but I think a lot of it does, in it's own way.

[Jay Mitchell]

really? I don't hear it that way at all. They sound like perfectly even, syncopated-accented eighths to me.They're not "perfectly even" in general. To check this, I downloaded the audio and took a look at it in a wave editor. I found a couple of passages where Wes is playing only sequential eighth notes with no rests and identified the beginning of each note. He's not offsetting the notes in a strict 2:1 relationship - as we've agreed is almost never done - but he ain't playing straight eighths for the most part, either. So far, the note groups I've looked at have the first eighth in a group of four longer than the second by ~1.6:1. The relationship between third and fourth notes ("2 and" and "4 and") is ambiguous in the phrases I've looked at, but there is no doubt that he's staggering the note lengths.

[brad347]

They're not "perfectly even" in general. To check this, I downloaded the audio and took a look at it in a wave editor. I found a couple of passages where Wes is playing only sequential eighth notes with no rests and identified the beginning of each note. He's not offsetting the notes in a strict 2:1 relationship - as we've agreed is almost never done - but he ain't playing straight eighths for the most part, either. So far, the note groups I've looked at have the first eighth in a group of four longer than the second by ~1.6:1. The relationship between third and fourth notes ("2 and" and "4 and") is ambiguous in the phrases I've looked at, but there is no doubt that he's staggering the note lengths.

Thanks for checking it out! Here's my question, though, in the spirit of shared learning, of course-- have we compared this to anything else-- say, Wes playing something like a Bossa Nova-- to make sure the staggering of the notes you observed is indeed stylistically significant? Would you agree that, because Wes is not a computer, a fairly large sample size would be necessary to draw any valid academic conclusions about trends?

You mention that "The relationship between third and fourth notes ("2 and" and "4 and") is ambiguous in the phrases I've looked at," but then go on to say that there is "no doubt that he's staggering the note lengths." I personally feel that these two statements are contradictory. If a result is "ambiguous," then how could it possibly be conclusive at this point?

But perhaps we can take this further. I'd love to hear more about your methodology. How many phrases have you looked at within that solo, and what was your averaging method to arrive at your "1.6:1" ratio? What happens if you do averaging between each group of two notes-- not just cherry picking the first two notes of the measure? I'd also truly appreciate it if you would share the exact timestamps of the phrases you've analyzed. I'd love to have a listen to see if we're both hearing the groups of notes the same way, notationally. For example, what you might hear as "staggered eights" within a line, I might hear as "tied triplets."

I'm very interested in this, because it doesn't seem to my ear that the conceptual intent is to stagger the notes in that clip--this is why your results are interesting to me. I'd love to know more about your methodology/precision. Expectation bias can always skew our results, despite the best of intentions.

[Jay Mitchell]

But perhaps we can take this further. I'd love to hear more about your methodology.It's very straightforward. You could easily do it yourself.

As I explained before, I found phrases that consist entirely of consecutive eight notes, with no rests or ties. These phrases do not constitute the majority of Wes' playing in the clip, but there is no shortage of them either. Then I zoomed in on a phrase and identified the beginning point of each note. This can be something of a challenge. You have to gradually zero in on the attack by beginning at a point where the previous note is clearly still sounding, then gradually moving the cursor forward until all traces of the prior note have disappeared but the beginning of the target note is audible. In many cases, the correctness of the choice can be verified by the appearance of the waveform in the transition from one note to the next. Having identified the beginning of a note, I log the timestamp to milliseconds and move to the next note.

How many phrases have you looked at within that solo,Fewer than a dozen, and that took some time. I'm not interested in a rigorous scientific analysis of his playing in the clip. I was interested in determining if I was clearly hearing was literally present. From the examination I did, it is my belief that I was. From my examination, it is clear that Wes was not generally playing - nor, in my opinion, was he attempting to play - straight eighths in the clip.

What happens if you do averaging between each group of two notes-- not just cherry picking the first two notes of the measure?Looking at the first two notes in a grouping of four eighth notes is not "just cherry picking the first two notes of the measure." You're looking at phrases that begin on one and three, i.e., the strong beats in a measure of 4/4. there is no doubt that the weaker beats - two and four - receive different treatment, both melodically and, as it now appears, rhythmically as well, by many jazz improvisors.

For example, what you might hear as "staggered eights" within a line, I might hear as "tied triplets."Were that the case (quarter note plus eighth note with a 3 over the pair), you'd be hearing the textbook definition of "swung eighths." I'm pretty sure there are few, if any, instances of that extreme (2:1) an offset in eighth-note durations in that clip.

My suggestion: download the audio and repeat my exercise, choosing your own phrases. When I see a sequence of eighth notes that vary in duration by 60% or more, and I simultaneously hear a swing feel in those same notes, I'm highly skeptical of any assertion that the intent of the player is to execute straight eighths. I'm positive Wes' time was more than good enough to play straight eighths within +/- 10% or less, if that's what he had really intended to do.

[brad347]

Jay, thanks for your reply.

Here's a point where I must continue to express a difference of opinion:

Were that the case (quarter note plus eighth note with a 3 over the pair), you'de be hearing the textbook definition of "swung eighths."

I do think there can be a difference in conception between a tied triplet figure and eighth notes. If a player is playing 8th notes that are primarily straight, but then there is one pair of notes with a tied-triplet feeling... I hear it as a triplet figure, not as a staggered eighth note. This can be up to individual interpretation/analysis, or even semantics, but I'm just telling you how I've come to hear it based upon my experience.


I'm highly skeptical of any assertion that the intent of the player is to execute straight eighths. I'm positive Wes' time was more than good enough to play straight eighths within +/- 10% or less, if that's what he had really intended to do.

This quote illustrates how difficult it can sometimes be to communicate musical nuance with the written/spoken word. I think there might be a slight disconnect between 'what I'm attempting to send' and 'what's actually being received.'

Let me see if I can try to be a little more precise.

First of all, I want to be clear that I'm not attempting to make any proclamations about what Wes "intended to execute." I couldn't possibly know that. I'm only speaking about what I hear in the 8th notes lines of most players whose time feel I like. I believe that for many of us, most of this stuff is more on a feeling/instinctual level rather than a conscious 'intent to execute' level, anyway. I'm only interested in the result, and how it sounds to me.

Your experimental results are compelling, and they do challenge a bit what I feel like I hear. I might like to make time to look at it myself, using your methods. But for some reason, the 8th notes in that video still sound pretty even, to me, when I listen. Know what I mean?

Just another data point to toss out there-- what kind of 8th notes do drummers play during trading or solos on swing tunes? I've never heard a staggered one!

[Jay Mitchell]

I do think there can be a difference in conception between a tied triplet figure and eighth notes.Me, too. Swung eighths are almost never the same as tied triplets, but that's the way "swing feel" is most often denoted in scores.

If a player is playing 8th notes that are primarily straight, but then there is one pair of notes with a tied-triplet feeling...This is the point of disagreement. I don't hear Wes "playing 8th notes that are primarily straight." Not only do I not hear that, the phrases I looked at analytically don't indicate that, nor do they indicate tied triplets. They are somewhere in between, i.e., a ratio between 1:1 and 2:1.

I believe that for many of us, most of this stuff is more on a feeling/instinctual level rather than a conscious 'intent to execute' level, anyway.When I hear a player - a classical musician, for example - play an eighth-note passage, I hear straight eighths, and there is no mistaking the difference between that and a swing feel. Placement of accents has nothing to do with it. Good classical players can execute syncopated accents flawlessly, but relatively few of them can swing. I rarely hear a jazz player execute eighth notes perfectly straight, even in Latin tunes.

But for some reason, the 8th notes in that video still sound pretty even, to me, when I listen. Know what I mean?I know what you mean, I just don't hear the same evenness that you do.

[DrSax]

this topic/thread is really interesting.

I've always been confused by this whole topic. I don't read notation very well, but have always been confused by the way "swing" time is notated as tied triplets. It doesn't sound like jazz players play eighth notes that way. I need a good teacher to drill this into my brain.

[brad347]

When I hear a player - a classical musician, for example - play an eighth-note passage, I hear straight eighths, and there is no mistaking the difference between that and a swing feel.

This I agree with, obviously.

Placement of accents has nothing to do with it.

With this as it's phrased, I must disagree. I wouldn't oversimplify so much as saying it's all about accents, because it's not, but I believe strongly that the manner in which notes are accented plays a part. The way notes are articulated, the way the notes sound-- all contributes to 'swing'.

The person that first got me thinking about swing eighth notes as 'not staggered in time' was Tristano disciple and Max Roach associate Connie Crothers. She is very insistent that jazz swing feeling in eighth note passages does not typically come from staggering the notes in time. Her thing is the individual expressive capacity of each note, and the fact that each note is an individual sound, with unique qualities. To paraphrase Connie, this--not time staggering--is the distinction between jazz eighth notes and the "even" conservatory eighth notes you describe.

I had never really thought about it much before... I've just played eighth notes based on instinct. But once Connie and I had that conversation, I begun to look at WHAT my heroes, colleagues, and I did/do. And my perception matches hers-- perhaps it's a bit of 'expectation bias' of my own, but once I started listening more analytically to good-feeling eighth notes, my perception has been overwhelmingly that the notes are not typically staggered in time-- at least not to an overwhelmingly significant degree, at least not a majority of the time. Like I said very early on, "there are always exceptions."

I know what you mean, I just don't hear the same evenness that you do.

Again, "evenness" is a word I have avoided, because it does not describe what I'm trying to convey. The swinging jazz eighth note, the way I hear it, has NO evenness (in the way that a classical performer might aspire to evenness). Each note from someone like Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, etc etc. has an individual world of expression of timbre, accent, dynamic, personality, etc. Anything but "even."

[brad347]

Here's a thought-experiment.

Imagine Oscar Pettiford playing a medium-tempo bassline, accompanied only by Freddie Green. Both just playing quarter notes.

Do those quarter notes "swing?" Would they sound different from the same two players playing a rhumba? If the answer is "yes" to both questions (mine most certainly would be "yes"), and there are no eighth notes, from whence comes the "swing?"

[Jay Mitchell]

I wouldn't oversimplify so much as saying it's all about accents, because it's not,Good. We're in agreement on that count.

She is very insistent that jazz swing feeling in eighth note passages does not typically come from staggering the notes in time. Her thing is the individual expressive capacity of each note, and the fact that each note is an individual sound, with unique qualities. To paraphrase Connie, this--not time staggering--is the distinction between jazz eighth notes and the "even" conservatory eighth notes you describe.So far, I both hear and can identify objectively a degree of "time stagger" in every passage I've looked at. I'd really be interested in seeing an example in which we both agree that the player is swinging but in which there is no "time stagger."

Like I said very early on, "there are always exceptions."In my experience both playing and listening, the exceptions are those instances in which there is not some amount of "time stagger."

Again, "evenness" is a word I have avoided,Here's a direct quote from you, the one in fact that motivated my further responses: "I don't hear it that way at all. They sound like perfectly even, syncopated-accented eighths to me."

Each note from someone like Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, etc etc. has an individual world of expression of timbre, accent, dynamic, personality, etc. Anything but "even."You're preaching to the choir about expressiveness. I'm simply remarking that, in my experience, the individual "world of expression" to which you allude includes some amount of time offset more often than not.

[brad347]

Here's a direct quote from you, the one in fact that motivated my further responses: "I don't hear it that way at all. They sound like perfectly even, syncopated-accented eighths to me."


Oops! :)

Well, nobody's perfect!

[dewey decibel]

I remember when I was starting out and was told to practice scales "swinging"; da ba da ba da ba da ba... and learning 8th note licks in the same manner and thinking to myself, "this doesn't sound anything like the records I'm listening to." Then I realized you could play straight 8ths and imply swinging by changing the timbre or volume of some of the notes. As guitarists we have a natural advantage (that most see as a deficiency) in that our downstrokes have a different timbre than our upstrokes, but most don't take advantage of it. Take Wes for example, especially with the thumb you can hear that difference. He mostly plays downstrokes, but he'll often use an upstroke on a triplet and you can hear it, it's got a different "pop" to it. It also has a different time feel. I'm not going to say Wes plays his 8ths totally straight, but it's definitely not the da ba as taught in most classrooms, a lot of that swing feeling comes from inflection and change in timbre.

[Trevordog]

Here's a thought-experiment.

Imagine Oscar Pettiford playing a medium-tempo bassline, accompanied only by Freddie Green. Both just playing quarter notes.

Do those quarter notes "swing?" Would they sound different from the same two players playing a rhumba? If the answer is "yes" to both questions (mine most certainly would be "yes"), and there are no eighth notes, from whence comes the "swing?"

Oscar Pettiford is a great example of a bass player who didn't need a drummer to swing. I have a Joe Puma record with only guitar, bass and piano, and OP just carries the whole thing beautifully.
I agree with CC's statement about the sound of each note (8th or other) creating swing, and OP's bass lines show it's not only 8th notes.
I've always liked the way most of the Tristano players swung, and the movement in the 60s to stagger 8th notes, seemed to take the swing out of the music and move it more towards funk/rock/blues.
The bop way of swinging seems harder to assimilate for guitarists, because it's so different from the other music they're used to playing.
Even a recognized master like Joe Pass seemed to have one foot in the rhythmic feel of the Swing period, and the other foot in the harmonic/melodic world of bop.
The jazz guitar players who seemed to embody this type of playing (with the result of being pretty much useless in other types of playing)were players like:
Jimmy Raney
Tal Farlow
Rene Thomas
Joe Puma
Ed Bickert
Wes Montgomery
and others.

[russ6100]

How can a bass player playing quarter notes solo swing?

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer but I will say that solo or not, one thing that is rarely mentioned but so very crucial in swing is note duration.

For example, a real swinging bassist will often be complimented thusly:

"That muhfuh plays some long-azz quarter notes!"

[purestmonk]

How can a bass player playing quarter notes solo swing?

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer but I will say that solo or not, one thing that is rarely mentioned but so very crucial in swing is note duration.

For example, a real swinging bassist will often be complimented thusly:

"That muhfuh plays some long-azz quarter notes!"

totally agree with note duration .. guitarist can try it with freddie green type comping .. the longer the note duration, the deeper into the groove

[brad347]

How can a bass player playing quarter notes solo swing?

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer but I will say that solo or not, one thing that is rarely mentioned but so very crucial in swing is note duration.

For example, a real swinging bassist will often be complimented thusly:

"That muhfuh plays some long-azz quarter notes!"

While this is true, a bassist can play swinging quarter notes even with the notes having full quarter-note duration... Buster Williams (usually) and Ron Carter (often) come to mind.

Bassists can also be swinging with shorter notes. Slam Stewart comes to mind.

They can also be swinging somewhere in the middle/some combination. Paul Chambers and Sam Jones come to mind.

Many guys will also play a bit differently depending if the drummer is feathering or not, and depending on how that hookup is working, in general. Sometimes a bassist's note will 'speak' quickly, with most of the energy coming early in the note (Oscar Pettiford), and sometimes it will be a long, legato, sustained tone (Buster Williams). They can ALL be swinging.

This is all just according to my perception, IMO, etc.

[brad347]

totally agree with note duration .. guitarist can try it with freddie green type comping .. the longer the note duration, the deeper into the groove

Freddie's actual quarter notes were typically medium-short, laid back a bit and quick release... and swinging as hell! Nobody better!

His guitar 'spoke' and died quickly due to the large top and high action (and due to being acoustic), but he also played medium-short, lifting his left hand to end the note. Not "all the way short," but definitely not "long," and fairly dead-center or even slightly on the back-side of the beat. Ridiculous!

Check out "The Come Back" by Joe Williams/Basie. That is some swinging guitar. I could listen to Freddie on that shit all day long.

[tkozal]

I always refer people to the youtube vids of that Dejohnette/Hancock/Holland/Metheny tour from 10-20 years ago or whatever. "Conflicts in Swing Conception"

Lets just say Mr. Hancock and Mr. Metheny have very different swings concepts, or in Pats case, straight 8ths, that makes it painfiul for me and others to watch. You can see the pain on Herbies face at times.

[Roger Axetrample]

My teacher asked me to stop "swinging" when I played single note lines.
He told me "Wes didn't swing, Grant didn't swing, it's very straight."
Well, this puzzles me, but I think I can hear what he means...
What do you guys think?

Hi,
try this: instead of giving your lines a triplet feel (the traditional swing thing that your teacher wants you to stop doing), try playing it straight, while ACCENTING THE OFF-BEAT notes. So one bar of eighth notes would be: dah-BA-dah-BA-dah-BA-dah-BA. Make the accents just a bit louder than the on-beat notes. You'll get a kind of forward motion in your playing that sounds great.
Grant played like this.
Martijn van Iterson plays like this, as well as a bit behind the beat.

Practice this with the metronome while playing scales and you're really swingin'...

Bye,
Roger

[Roger Axetrample]

I always refer people to the youtube vids of that Dejohnette/Hancock/Holland/Metheny tour from 10-20 years ago or whatever. "Conflicts in Swing Conception"

Lets just say Mr. Hancock and Mr. Metheny have very different swings concepts, or in Pats case, straight 8ths, that makes it painfiul for me and others to watch. You can see the pain on Herbies face at times.

Hi,
do you mean Pat's 8th's timing is so much not together with herbie's that it pains Herbie?
Which vid exactly? Cool, cool.
Roger

[arthur rotfeld]

All those guys have different swing conception. Who doesn't?

I can't think of any good small group where all the players had the same feel.
Think of Miles' classic groups. All those guys had different eighth notes.

[jzucker]

Wes swung. Grant swung. They just didn't have that exaggerated dotted-eight, "doop-dee doop-dee doop" Band-in-a-Box crappy time-feel.

agreed. I'd have to hear you and I'd have to hear your teacher to know where he's coming from.

Listen to Miles on Kind of Blue. That is swinging 8th notes. If your teacher says miles wasn't playing with a swing feel on that I'd question it...

[jzucker]

and pat doesn't play straight 8ths. He certainly has a more modern 8th note concept. I think the angst between metheny and hancock is deeper than that.

[arthur rotfeld]

I think the angst between metheny and hancock is deeper than that.

I didn't know they had issues. What's up with them?

[heavypick]

and pat doesn't play straight 8ths. He certainly has a more modern 8th note concept. I think the angst between metheny and hancock is deeper than that.

Definitely intrigued now...

[guitarjazz]

and pat doesn't play straight 8ths. He certainly has a more modern 8th note concept. I think the angst between metheny and hancock is deeper than that.
School me please. I'm cornfused. Seems like quite a few of Pat's pieces are based on straight feels rather than swing.
Pat and Herbie appear on many sides together. What's up with the angst? Is it Pat's hair?

[russ6100]

School me please. I'm cornfused. Seems like quite a few of Pat's pieces are based on straight feels rather than swing.
Pat and Herbie appear on many sides together. What's up with the angst? Is it Pat's hair?

Sure, quite a few of Pat's compositions are based on a different feel altogether, but the comparisons being made here are about each of their time-feels on swing-type tunes.

[guitarjazz]

Sure, quite a few of Pat's compositions are based on a different feel altogether, but the comparisons being made here are about each of their time-feels on swing-type tunes.
Someone thought he played even eighths over swing?..I must have missed that. Thanks for clearing that up. Ever hear the infamous Metheny lesson recording?

[jzucker]

Sure, quite a few of Pat's compositions are based on a different feel altogether, but the comparisons being made here are about each of their time-feels on swing-type tunes.

Just listen to "question and answer" if you think he plays with straight 8th notes. Maybe the same person who thinks Jim Hall is unlistenable made this assertion?

[Jay Mitchell]

Just listen to "question and answer" if you think he plays with straight 8th notes.That's my favorite PM recording. I thought about mentioning it as well. Pat can play straight eighths when he wants to, but he can also swing with the best of them. And IMHO Roy Haynes and Dave Holland are included in "the best of them."

[jads57]

It dont mean a thing, if ain't got that swing!

[zwieback-dude]

Hmm it's a bad habit, i have it too when i practice jazz tunes. My teacher told me to practice straight 8s when the tune has a swing feel.. it sounds more interesting.

[jzucker]

Hmm it's a bad habit, i have it too when i practice jazz tunes. My teacher told me to practice straight 8s when the tune has a swing feel.. it sounds more interesting.

I question that advice but I'd have to hear how you're playing swing 8th notes to see what he's talking about. I definitely wouldn't say it sounds more interesting though. That's a pretty subjective comment.

Listen to Wynton Marsalis. He certainly knows how to swing.

Some of the advice I read here is so misguided!

[brad347]

Some of the advice I read here is so misguided!

Everyone would probably agree on this statement--but each person would have their own opinion as to which advice it describes! That's the good thing about a community like this. A lot of different experiences, philosophies, and perceptions represented.

On the best days, this results in dialogue, discussion, and thought-provoking sharing of opinions in a friendly, constructive way. On the worst days, it results in needless dogma, egotism, speaking in absolutes and petty arguing--with each side trying to quash the opposition. Some days we're better than others!

[tkozal]

One can have a swing conception that has it roots in a more straight conventional 8th feel. Or one can have a swing conception that speaks from New Orleans. Or one can be from Europe (rimshot) Or so Eric Kloss taught me. Other examples are everywhere, are they not? "Sorry that cat doesnt swing!" The two discussed above demonstrate such things. Such implications made from a statement!

It took me to be able to leave my driving straight rock behind to get swing, on a busted bicycle tire pedaling up a bumpy Pittsburgh hill. thwacka thwakaa.


I also think that Hancock-Metheny tension is a good test or review for the kind of issues that can exist. (cant you see the PAIN?) The other that came to mind from the same period, perhaps more obvious, was the Wayne Shorter-Santana tour, where the two bands on stage literally couldn't have had more different rhythm conceptions. There were numerous collisions. I used to collect such examples years ago, when I was over-intellectualizing such stuff.

[Jazz2Punk]

Everyone would probably agree on this statement--but each person would have their own opinion as to which advice it describes! That's the good thing about a community like this. A lot of different experiences, philosophies, and perceptions represented.


It would be nice if more of the jazz experts on TGP posted links to their playing. Otherwise, it's hard to tell who is voicing a qualified opinion and who is simply being opinionated.

As a student of jazz guitar, I find that is an important distinction to make when seeking advice on the intraweb.

YMMV.

[chronowarp]

Playing well doesn't make you an expert.

[jb70]

I always refer people to the youtube vids of that Dejohnette/Hancock/Holland/Metheny tour from 10-20 years ago or whatever. "Conflicts in Swing Conception"

Lets just say Mr. Hancock and Mr. Metheny have very different swings concepts, or in Pats case, straight 8ths, that makes it painfiul for me and others to watch. You can see the pain on Herbies face at times.

really?

mi5CuXzHr1c&feature=related

[dsimon665]

Triplets over the bar line is a great sound.
That may be true but its a pain when notating it in Sibelius. Score one for the "anti-notationalists" :banana

[guitarjazz]

really?

mi5CuXzHr1c&feature=related
Thank you. A picture paints a thousand words. Pat's playing with the eighth notes like a cat with mouse.

[RichardB]

Yeah, it's a very difficult concept to get down, and unless that's all you play, chances are you're not going to be doing it right.
Joe Beck once said there is no relation between playing bebop on the guitar and playing rock/fusion/funk etc... on the guitar.

Robben Ford proves all of those ideas are nonsense...He plays better jazz than just about any "full-time jazzer", and, of course, kills on rock/blues/etc etc

[RichardB]

Thank you. A picture paints a thousand words. Pat's playing with the eighth notes like a cat with mouse.

Yes, he sounds unbelievably great. Anyone who thinks there is ANY conflict of time w/ Herbie or anyone else in that band is just flat out wrong....Metheny is like the logical extension of Wes...

[Jay Mitchell]

Metheny is like the logical extension of Wes...Or maybe Jim Hall....

[guitarjazz]

I would say that Peter Bernstein (or Jimmy Ponder, Emily Remler or Ted Dunbar) is the logical extension of Wes, and he'd probably say the same....
Pat's one of those guys who memorized entire Wes albums when he was 15. Wes was an important influence. Have you read the Interviews book?

[slopeshoulder]

Who cares what wes and your teacher do?
Do what you want to do.
And everytime you do, you'll make jazz less of a historicist relic and more of a living force.
And oh yeah, get a new teacher. Sounds like a purist fascist.

[slopeshoulder]

I'd like to suggest that anyone who thinks about will never do it. And nor should they.

[RichardB]

I would say that Peter Bernstein (or Jimmy Ponder, Emily Remler or Ted Dunbar) is the logical extension of Wes, and he'd probably say the same....

Nope, they aren't extensions of Wes, they are CLONES...except for Remler, who was a VERY ordinary player and more of a mediocre amalgam of Martino, Wes and maybe Pass....Metheny took Wes' and Hall's legato technique and refined it and then added (extended) a huge dose of his own genius. There is more Metheny there than anybody else (thank goodness), which is why he is important...

[guitarjazz]

I remember reading an interview with Peter and he said he never copied Wes stuff. I was surprised.
I think the greatest thing Pat got from Wes was the idea that having his own voice was paramount. That voice resonated with many and now Pat gets to sit on top of the hill.

[jb70]

i've always thought of peter bernstein as a very hip mix of grant green and jim hall. i don't hear much wes in peter's playing. he really kills on the lee konitz cd "parallels"

[RichardB]

Great- I'll tell Peter Bernstein that you think he's a clone the next time I catch him live.

Sorry, missed that Pete's name was in there. He is certainly no clone of Wes at all...

[guitarjazz]

Peter plays beautifully 'in the tradition' , as he says. Pat's making up the new tradition. Pat's innovations are built on a firm foundation.

[StanG]

Not that they dont sound great together, but I have a feeling the Bernstein, Mel Phynes, Eric Alexander connection has as much to do them all being on the same record label as anything else. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing. I have the records (downloads) and listen to them all the time. It was a pleasant surprise to find those albums.

[RichardB]

Here is somebody (Metheny) who can actually do what he pontificates on, as opposed to these other cats that talk big but then can't actually play the stuff they are pontificating on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qmwXkzLR2U

There are 3 parts and they are all up the best illumination on jazz time I have ever heard from any musician ever....because he actually plays and demonstrates the stuff at the highest possible level and then elucidates on it. He can walk the talk...Part 1 has Pat playing for a long stretch...INCREDIBLE feel and way of playing. Probably the most hornlike playing we have ever had on a gtr....and PERFECT time

[Roger Axetrample]

Probably the most hornlike playing we have ever had on a gtr....
Grant Green.

R

[heavypick]

Really? Grant sounds great but real guitaristic. The horn like association for me with Green us that he only plays single-note lines.

[sonic_777111]

My teacher always tells me to swing more...

[gennation]

He might actually just be saying don't start your lines on the "and" of the beat, or the pickup note but instead start right on the beat.

[jzucker]

.Part 1 has Pat playing for a long stretch...INCREDIBLE feel and way of playing. Probably the most hornlike playing we have ever had on a gtr....and PERFECT time

That's what you say this week but a couple years ago, you said that benson had perfect time, metheny's time was bad and that Wes had a problem with rushing.

And speaking of pontification...How about posting some of your work again instead of just stirring the pot?

[mojazzmo]

Here is somebody (Metheny) who can actually do what he pontificates on, as opposed to these other cats that talk big but then can't actually play the stuff they are pontificating on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qmwXkzLR2U

There are 3 parts and they are all up the best illumination on jazz time I have ever heard from any musician ever....because he actually plays and demonstrates the stuff at the highest possible level and then elucidates on it. He can walk the talk...Part 1 has Pat playing for a long stretch...INCREDIBLE feel and way of playing. Probably the most hornlike playing we have ever had on a gtr....and PERFECT time
Thanks Richard. Some great stuff there especially in the Part 2 video but I can't find Part 1. Is it still up on youtube?

[medrawt]

Thanks Richard. Some great stuff there especially in the Part 2 video but I can't find Part 1. Is it still up on youtube?

I don't remember where, but I saw a link to those somewhere else recently, not on Youtube. It's a pretty widely circulated file, as far as "bootlegged jazz guitar lessons" go, I bet if you google a bit you could find something. I remember a Usenet discussion about it years ago, and people were (among other things) trying to guess the name of the mystery sax player who knows all the hip shit Brecker knows, but doesn't have good time.

[RichardB]

That's what you say this week but a couple years ago, you said that benson had perfect time, metheny's time was bad and that Wes had a problem with rushing.

And speaking of pontification...How about posting some of your work again instead of just stirring the pot?

No.

I have NEVER said Metheny has bad time. He has perfect time, like Benson. I even recall (it's just come back to me) saying - that to me - Benson is the master of the older jazz style on gtr and Metheny is the modern master.

And Wes did have some time problems on occasion. Especially when the tempos were quick. You can hear him struggling to make the lines swing using the thumb technique... Just have a careful listen and it's CLEAR as day. In fact, I just heard Road Song in the canteen at my teaching gig a moment ago, and Wes' time feels slightly awkward on that. Like he is almost trying to swing on the straight 8ths.
Melodically and motivically it was SUPERB, though.

[russ6100]

No.

I have NEVER said Metheny has bad time. He has perfect time, like Benson. I even recall (it's just come back to me) saying - that to me - Benson is the master of the older jazz style on gtr and Metheny is the modern master.

And Wes did have some time problems on occasion. Especially when the tempos were quick. You can hear him struggling to make the lines swing using the thumb technique... Just have a careful listen and it's CLEAR as day. In fact, I just heard Road Song in the canteen at my teaching gig a moment ago, and Wes' time feels slightly awkward on that. Like he is almost trying to swing on the straight 8ths.
Melodically and motivically it was SUPERB, though.

Wes absolutely rushed sometimes. While transcribing, I could *see* it in my audio editor and hear it, and it really left me scratching my head because it still sounded fantastic!

[arthur rotfeld]

Pretty much every jazz solo has moments of rushing or dragging, however subtle. I can't recall transcribing anything that didn't have that ebb and flow. The groove can still be great and the sense of time still really strong.

[russ6100]

This is swinging hard. I know....someone's (cough cough) bass solo has some pretty severe moments of rushing but besides that... Sco's time is godlike.:)
0bLUL822Nfs

[RichardB]

Sco sounds great in his solo(as usual), but he sounds a teeny bit rushed here and there in the head - if we were to split hairs.

That legato double-time line in the out head is SICKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

Must say I hated Sco's comping for the bass - MUCH too much for me....but then I'm me - a nobody ;-)

[russ6100]

Must say I hated Sco's comping for the bass - MUCH too much for me....but then I'm me - a nobody ;-)

Might be presumptuous of me but I was thinking that Sco kind of went uncharacteristically "Freddy Green" on CMD to try to rein him in a little... ;)

[slyzspyz]

regarding the OP, I have an "exercise" I have my students work on when their swing feel is lacking. A great many players are initially taught the 2:1 ratio of triplets in eighth notes which is obviously helpful at the beginning stages, especially if coming from a classical background so as to avoid the dotted eighth/sixteenth (3:1 ratio) effect, but that has been discussed here and it seems many players agree that relatively even eighth notes over a triplet ride cymbal pattern creates a nice feel.
The main thing with guitarists who use alternate picking is the accent of the downstroke is too strong and it sounds really corny and stilted. It is hardly ground breaking but a good exercise is simply to play a scale in position with alternate picking and to really exaggerate the dynamics; make the pick lightly glide over the string on the downstroke so it is actually inaudible, then use a strong upstroke to get a firm sounding note on the 'and' of the beat. Do this slowly and exaggerate it to comical effect, as it speeds up and the dynamics start to balance out (but not too much), to my ear that creates a stronger swing sound with fairly even eighth notes.

[scottl]

I have to stick up for Richard here. I have known him for at least 10 years and he has always praised Pat Metheny's time. In a big way. Never ever heard him say a negative about Pat's time.

Just sayin'

No.

I have NEVER said Metheny has bad time. He has perfect time, like Benson. I even recall (it's just come back to me) saying - that to me - Benson is the master of the older jazz style on gtr and Metheny is the modern master.

And Wes did have some time problems on occasion. Especially when the tempos were quick. You can hear him struggling to make the lines swing using the thumb technique... Just have a careful listen and it's CLEAR as day. In fact, I just heard Road Song in the canteen at my teaching gig a moment ago, and Wes' time feels slightly awkward on that. Like he is almost trying to swing on the straight 8ths.
Melodically and motivically it was SUPERB, though.

[scottl]

Yeah baby. Love John's playing. That pocket is deep.

Crazy to think that some say John is a a "fusion" player and not a jazz player! :horse

This is swinging hard. I know....someone's (cough cough) bass solo has some pretty severe moments of rushing but besides that... Sco's time is godlike.:)
0bLUL822Nfs

[russ6100]

Yeah baby. Love John's playing. That pocket is deep.

Crazy to think that some say John is a a "fusion" player and not a jazz player! :horse

Innit? A lot of people don't realize that he was playing straight ahead *before* he did the Miles gig, with Swallow & Nussbaum, and then Stewart.

Same with PM - they missed the years that Pat slept with his 175 and was practically a Wes clone.....

[Lolaviola]

Thanks, mate. I think that easy-peezy exercices like this are great, and I'll actually DO them too.
I heard a jazz drummer describe the 'ratio' thing more like 3:4 when riding on the swing. Cool.

regarding the OP, I have an "exercise" I have my students work on when their swing feel is lacking. A great many players are initially taught the 2:1 ratio of triplets in eighth notes which is obviously helpful at the beginning stages, especially if coming from a classical background so as to avoid the dotted eighth/sixteenth (3:1 ratio) effect, but that has been discussed here and it seems many players agree that relatively even eighth notes over a triplet ride cymbal pattern creates a nice feel.
The main thing with guitarists who use alternate picking is the accent of the downstroke is too strong and it sounds really corny and stilted. It is hardly ground breaking but a good exercise is simply to play a scale in position with alternate picking and to really exaggerate the dynamics; make the pick lightly glide over the string on the downstroke so it is actually inaudible, then use a strong upstroke to get a firm sounding note on the 'and' of the beat. Do this slowly and exaggerate it to comical effect, as it speeds up and the dynamics start to balance out (but not too much), to my ear that creates a stronger swing sound with fairly even eighth notes.