Bar Owner Psychology

[cruisemates]

Reading the thread about the guy who is burnt out from playing 10- 2 in bars. I am in a band where we range 45-55. We just got together but have a couple of good sets. I am trying to set up a "showcase gig" in a local bar with a good PA. We plan to invite 100 people and really hope 50+ will show up.

But - the problem is the Bar Owner is so set in his 10-2 mentality. And he looks to be 60. Now I want to be VERY clear. I am NOT in the "Bar Owner Hate Club." I was a rock bar owner and I totally appreciate what these guys do for live music.

But we proposed to this guy 'we would like to set up at 6:30, run through 1-2 songs at 7:00 for soundcheck, and start playing at 7:30, for our invited audience." He can't get his head around that.

Now - this bar has a nice PA & stage, and they only have live music thurs-sun. We are proposing a wednesday when there is no music & the place is all but empty. But he says "you can't start that early, it will interrupt my happy hour crowd. So I went there last wed at 7:30 - completely empty. I asked the bartender when they left and she said "the 3 people I had took off at 6:00."

The Bar Owner does not believe that. Plus (get this) he is the soundman, so here is what he does. He asks bands to come in at 9:00 and set up, he mikes them up and uses their first song as his soundcheck.

So, I went in a 9:00 thurs, and saw about 50 people. The band was setting up, no background music on, and he is saying "check 1,2" for an hour. See the irony? I watched this for an hour till the band started playing at 10:00

I walked up to him and said "Hey, I have been writing you email about our plans but haven't gotten a firm reply yet." He says "Oh yeah, listen man, I'm really burnt out..., um you're the guys who want to do a "dress rehearsal", yeah, I don't want any sound in here at all until 7:30. I'd rather start at 8:00." (BTW - both businesses by him close at 6:00)

No big deal. But we think we'll get a better crowd with an earlier start, plus we just want a runthrough of one/two songs first. I am just saying what shame it is that bar owners are also caught up in the 10-2 mentality. You know, a lot more 40-60 y.o. go to bars these days than they did 30 years ago, but we can't sit in a bar that late anymore either.

I know other bars that start the music at 8:00 and go to midnight. makes more sense, really.

So, I am just saying it would be nice if B.O. figured out that there is an audience for earlier starting bands - especially in a "showcase" situation like we want to do where we invite co-workers (with day jobs)." But this guy just can't see it.

And I KNOW bar owner psychology. You can't tell them how to run their businesses, they won't hear it. I feel like if I caught this guy at the right time he would get what Im saying (I ran a live rock bar myself for five years - there aren't that many of us in that club) - but he only comes in his bar to work the soundboard and I can't have a conversation with him - too busy.

And I do understand this - he sees his regular business as being 10-2:00, so he only wants bands that can play 10 - 2. Therefore maybe he doesn't think we have the chops to play more than once in his club, so why bother with us. Maybe we don't want to play 10-2 often, but we do have the chops and would do it at least once in awhile if he hired us.

Bottom line - I am just saying - people here see the 10-2 problem, wouldn't it be nice if the clubs also caught on to that, especially for weeknights? I'm also interested in hearing if the bar scene has changed in the last 30 years and more bars are starting earlier on weekdays.

[Shiny McShine]

I like the idea of doing a little mini study with actual numbers of people in attendance. Would three Wednesdays in a row seem reasonable to draw conclusions from?

[johnrea_77]

We have a few places in my area that started doing Friday Happy Hour shows - 6PM to 10PM, seems to work for some places.

There is no question that playing until closing time is not what it used to be for numerous reasons - the primary one being a target for DWI pulling out of a bar while the neon lights are being turned off. More places are opting to run gigs earlier so that we finish up anywhere from a half hour to an hour before closing.

[re-animator]

i would think about renting a showcase space in a studio/practice space building. don't know if they have that sort of thing where you're at but i've used them before for album release parties and they were awesome.. lots of satisfaction from running your own show.

you'd have to provide your own booze though,... (and you wouldn't be able to charge for it legally unless you have a liquor license)

[stevel]

I would play the gig at his hours.

Get your crowd to show up for the first set, and then leave. Have them tell the bartenders that they really dig the band, but they wish they started earlier.

If you can pack the house, you'll have some leverage with this guy. But you're right, the mentality isn't going to change, so you may need to drop the gig.

I know a lot of clubs don't want bands playing during their "dinner crowd".

Steve

[V-Type]

If you pack the gate with 50 plus he might see you Know what you are talking about.
Some places dont get that quite a few fans and drinkers dont have all night like some folks do.
Some places we play start at 8pm others 9 and 10 pm.
Now when we do the Halls its generally a 7 pm start wrapping up a bit after midnite.
Its all dependent on what the club/bar owner has had work and not work for him before.
Then there are some guys that just look at the bands as background music for their regulars rather than a vehicle too bring new clientel in.

[boldaslove1977]

the thing is... you need him more than he needs you... or really WANTS you. it sounds like he has other bands willing to play by his rules.. so he doesn't see the need to go out of his comfort zone just for you. remember... EVERY band says they're going to bring 50 or 100 people or whatever...

if you won't want to do the 10-2 thing... maybe you could ask him about opening for another band... or splitting the night with a band in the same boat as you?

i've see a bunch of new bands play the first set of a 3 set night... then an established band comes up and does the last 2 sets... and they'll even share gear so it doesn't create twice the work.

one of the best regular gigs my band has... the first time we played there we split the night with another band. the manager had never heard of either one of us.. so this way... he essentially backs himself up... while giving us a shot at a good-paying gig. we now play that place once a month... and it's one of the better paying gigs on the calendar.

i feel your pain... i've gone on rants about bar owners several times here... and it seems like it's the same story all over the place. they're gonna do what they want to do... and they're not willing to take advice from anyone... good luck...

btw.. as far as the time thing goes.. we have one regular gig that goes from 1am-4am! that's prime time in some nyc spots! but i'm 33.. and every time we do it... i feel older and older the next day!

[fjblair]

I don't have any input on bar owners but I do know there are many, many adults that would go out and see live music if it were played at adult times. I don't get out near as much as I would like but most bands get going around 10 or 11 and that's a deal killer for me most of the time. Driving home at 2am ain't what it used to be.

I'm sure college students and 20 somethings are what bar owners are shooting for and that is mostly what they get.

[tiktok]

Reading the thread about the guy who is burnt out from playing 10- 2 in bars. I am in a band where we range 45-55. We just got together but have a couple of good sets. I am trying to set up a "showcase gig" in a local bar with a good PA. We plan to invite 100 people and really hope 50+ will show up.

But - the problem is the Bar Owner is so set in his 10-2 mentality. And he looks to be 60. Now I want to be VERY clear. I am NOT in the "Bar Owner Hate Club." I was a rock bar owner and I totally appreciate what these guys do for live music.

But we proposed to this guy 'we would like to set up at 6:30, run through 1-2 songs at 7:00 for soundcheck, and start playing at 7:30, for our invited audience." He can't get his head around that.

First, don't spend a lot of energy trying to book a gig at a venue owned by an idiot.

Second, there's people who like to go see live music, and there's people who like to stay out drinking after 9PM, and there's not a lot of overlap. There's a lot of people who want to drink without a band blaring away, and there's a lot of people who want to take in some live music and be home in time to catch the nightly news and be up for work bright and early the next morning. Bars, however, really only make money from people who drink. So, you've either got to put a lot of people in the room who have no more than two beers because they know they have to drive home and be up for work at 6AM, or fewer people who drink all night long.

Third, decades of experience have ingrained the idea that bar music starts late (and later than it even claims it will) and goes on way late. People don't even think to look for live music entertainment at 7PM on a Tuesday.

I think if music was run more like the movies there's a large untapped audience. Of course, this would require the band to show up, on time, at 6PM, the sound guy to show up on time, everyone to get everything ready to go for a 7:30 start time, and then actually start at 7:30 and deliver 90-120 minutes of well-rehearsed entertainment at a comfortable volume level and in a comfortable setting. In twenty years of playing in bars, I have never found a place that runs like this. Musicians are frequently flaky. Bar staff are frequently flaky (bars change hands every few years because the owners can't get it together). The sound mix is bad, the physical surroundings are less-than pleasant.

[cob666]

Where I grew up there are a few bars on the beach (Revere, MA) that have live music until 2 and the bars are usually pretty full right up through last call if the band is any good. But I will usually leave between 11 and 12 unless I'm really digging the band or I'm hanging out with friends. When I'm playing, I don't mind doing 10-2 as long as the place is kind of hopping. Nothing worse than playing to a handful of people. Even worse are the Thursday night gigs where the only people left in the bar for the last set are the employees and the band's girlfriends.

[cruisemates]

Thanks so much for the reasoned opinions - all valuable. For us the main thing to remember is the city we are in.

When I was 20 living in Hollywood we went to bars nightly - getting out AT 10:00 AND staying up until 4:00. BUT in Phoenix they don't have that kind of crowd (it is small, anyway). Even the one most successful live rock club 7-nights finally closed down a few years ago.

This club has a nice PA, stage and bar (for liquor) - no food. There is no "dinner audience" or even a real happy hour crowd - because there is no food. Therefore his only time to make money is when people are drinking. I KNOW this scenario well as it was the same as my bar. We lost money and I am sure this guy is, too.

We aren't looking to spend money on a showcase (Like S.I.R.) - although that is a decent idea for an original band. We are just a cover band that wants to show people (our friends) we can play. We are a good band - not "great" yet, but we need to play out and get that trial by fire that makes you good.

I am willing to play free for a little while - I just don't really want to go 10-2. (unless we are getting paid).

When I was 20 people in the 40-60 age group didnt hang at bars, but they do now, here in PHX anyway, but I think they would hang more if the times were more reasonable, say 7:30 - 11:30 - be home in time for 7 hours sleep. You CAN'T drink & drive in PHX (worst DUI laws in the nation), so that has done two thing - made people drink less, but also they go to more neighborhood bars (less distance to drive).

The problem is B.O.M. - bar owner mentality (I have had this, I know). You get obsessed with "what works" and you don't want to take chances on changing that or trying new things. However, what works on a Friday may not work on a Tuesday.

Bars that serve food here usually serve till 8 then have a band come on at 8:30 to keep the drinkers. They don't wait until 10:00 (or the place would empty out and have a 2 hour lull.)

BUt this is a drinking-only rock bar , so the question is - how do I get this guy to listen to me? Someone here said it - to a BO bands are commodities. I get it. But to customers, bars are commodities. I can tell you this - when I owned a bar I did plent of early shows, all ages etc, that sold out and killed. I am a little surprised this guy is so inflexible. But - the PA & stage are nice and he is willing to let us play, so why turn it down at this point?

Anyway - I think we are going to do what he asks since he isn't willing to compromise, and if it doesn't turn out as well as we hope, well then we can say "hey, we really tried, but this wasn't exactly the way we wanted it either."

Yeah - as a B.O. I also KNOW how many bands say they can get 50 people and who end up getting none - but every once in awhile I would strike gold with a showcase band like this and really would pull in 100+ people that drank like fish. It can happen.

[Dave Shoop]

First I will say "our crowd" works better 9:00 to 1:00 . I will let the club owners know that but it's their call and no they aren't idiots just because they want to run their club as they see fit.

My second reaction is why bother putting a band together at all if playing at 9:00 or later is this big of an issue for you ? Rent a room and have your own little get together for your friends.

Most clubs have patrons that regularly stop in after work for a beer and would be really annoyed by a band setting up and making a racket.

I also wouldn't encourage a band that is willing to play for free. It works against everything most bands are trying to do. So you talk this guy into your free friend show and it works so now he starts looking for other bands willing to play for free for their friends.
I think it's bad enough some clubs pay the band only "the door". Bottom line for me is I won't play for free unless it's a charity. A band that plays for free is a big no no for me.

[gmann]

You say you know the bar owner phsycology and you can't talk to him, I think that says it all. Find a different bar. Why beat your head against the wall to play this place, is it the only place? I've never owned a bar but have almost 40 yrs experience dealing with bar owners. They are what they are.

[m1911]

Yeah....well I "AM" in the "HATE THE BAR OWNERS CLUB"!
You should tell the guy to go F*CK himself and watch him implode, and go Bankrupt like 95% of the rest of the weirdos in his biz.

I'm a member of what would probably be considered as mainstream professional business selling Capital Goods to Companies like General Electric, General Dynamics, United Technologies, etc.

I've said for a million years these losers wouldn't last 10 seconds in that world.....of a more normal business decorum.

Again....tell him to F*CK himself, then make him a low-ball offer while he's in receivership, just prior to chapter 7 bankruptcy.....then offer to buy his kids some food.

[Ziggy AngelDust]

We have a monthly gig at a place where we play 8-11. Two hour and twenty minute sets with a twenty minute break. Many come for diner and everyone stays to the end as is home by midnight. It's ideal for everyone.

[Gas-man]

One of the reasons he isn't listening to you is that regardless of your history as a bar owner you are a newbie to playing in bands.

Btw, never play for free! You're telling people what your time is worth.

[frisco]

I would actually go see live music if it was earlier.

The crowd would also hopefully tend to be a bit less loaded early in the evening, which would also make it more enjoyable for me.

[cruisemates]

One of the reasons he isn't listening to you is that regardless of your history as a bar owner you are a newbie to playing in bands.

Btw, never play for free! You're telling people what your time is worth.

I never said I was a newbie to playing in bands. I said we are a new band but we sound good. We are all 40s & 50s.

Most rock bar owners go into the business thinking every night will be killer, but it isn't - there are many hours and costs for little return. Have some campassion for these guys. Most of them are really struggling to get by and they are doing the music world a huge service by giving bands a place to play.

If your band is doing well enough to draw a crowd at every gig, then you deserve to be paid. But we are now an unknown band.

As a bar owner myself I know I tried far too many bands who said they were "professional, had a following..." only to find out they were full of sh*t.

I have no problem being willing to prove our band first at no cost - that shows a B.O. you are willing to work with him. If he then feels we are worth it he will hire us. I did this with many bands as a club owner and it is right - when you have to hire 5-6 bands/week you will use a solid band when you find one.

[rollyfoster]

if i was 60 and working in a bar i probably wouldn't want to come in 2 hours before i wanted to, either.

plus, letting you do it would open him up to other people asking to do it.

[cruisemates]

In Bar Owner's defense - I just want to say that it is a very hard business, and honestly not a good one. Most rock bars lose money (unless they are in neighborhoods with colleges, etc, nearby.)

People should not get into the business - but thank someone they do, right? Where would you play without these idiots who start rock bars?

The expenses are outrageous - you have pay for utilities, advertising, employees, rent, taxes, etc. Plus you have to pay the musicians.

The only income you get is the booze you can sell, and half the people in a bar ask for water or a coke. Your peak selling hours are from 9:00 to 1:00 two nights/week.

When I was a bar owner I personally loved showcases like the one we are suggesting to this guy - because I knew a new band made up of experienced players was something that would sound good and that the curiousity factor would be high. I would work with someone like me if I came in.

BUt this guy has a real burn out factor, and can only see doing things one way. It's all too typical in the business; sad but true, but don't hate on these guys - think about what they are giving your band;

A place to crank it up and play in front of a crowd; exposure by advertsing your band name in the local entertainment rags, exposure on their web site, a salary for playing.

I have seen very few bands that could guarantee me a profit as a bar owner. Most of time I was the one doing them a favor - I'd have to pay them for playing to a mediocre-filled house, after I spent $100s advertising their gig. I had a bar in the 80s. I had to create a mailing list every month, get it printed at Kinkos and spend money on stamps. I also had to send our media briefings to the local rags to let them know who was playing in our bar. And advertisjng was one of our biggest expenses. A 1/4 page ad in New Times could $2000/month.

I'm just saying that when you own a bar you have to put a lot of work into promoting the bands that play for you, but typically too many bands go "well, thats the bar owner's job, our job is to play." But, in fact a band that does not do its own marketing of gigs, etc, is a band who will not draw a crowd. So, give the B.O. a break, they are working hard for the local bands and the local music scene.

And anyone who thinks they could do it better - talk is cheap. The truth is that the only way to go in the biz is to build a mega-investment nightclub in a college town - and most of those places fail within a few years. The truth is - live music bars are not a get-rich business. Anyone who can even hang in there a few years is lucky - and it isn't because they are stupid, it is because the cards are really stacked against you.

[cruisemates]

if i was 60 and working in a bar i probably wouldn't want to come in 2 hours before i wanted to, either.

plus, letting you do it would open him up to other people asking to do it.

Any bar owner would welcome a crowd of 50- 100 buying booze with a band he didn't have to pay at a time when he normally doesn't have anyone at all in the house. The only thing holding him back is that he doesn't know we can pull in that many people, but I think we can if we are given plenty of time to promote.

The only problem is him holding off on confirming our date - time we need to promote the gig to our friends. In that sense he is only hurting himself.

[tiktok]

Any bar owner would welcome a crowd of 50- 100 buying booze with a band he didn't have to pay at a time when he normally doesn't have anyone at all in the house. The only thing holding him back is that he doesn't know we can pull in that many people, but I think we can if we are given plenty of time to promote.

The only problem is him holding off on confirming our date - time we need to promote the gig to our friends. In that sense he is only hurting himself.

Figure out how much lead time you need to promote the show, and then ask him for a percentage of the bar above his regular take for the evening. That way, he's not risking much and you get the chance to prove you can make him money, which is all he cares about.

[cruisemates]

One thing no bar owner will ever share is a take of the bar proceeds. if you can draw a guaranteed crowd you can charge a cover charge for the band.

I don't even see this guy charging more than a few dollars cover any night. I really wonder how he does it, most bars in his shoes would have gone under by now.

Like I said, I owned a bar. There isn't anything that happens in a rock bar that I don't see. He had a bartender that was overpouring like crazy. Not only does that cost you expensive booze, it cuts way down on the number of drinks you sell. The bartenders do it for the tips.

The worst bartenders "forget" to ring drinks up and just put the money in their tip jar - or they will take a $15 order and ring up $5 and put $10 in their tip jar, making it look like the customer said "keep the change" and unless you have a mega-expensive posi-pour system there is no way to know if the bartender rang up the right amount based on what she poured - you can't watch how much or even how many drinks they pour unless they ring them up.

I saw her pour "shots" that had to be over 2 oz.

BTW: you can tell if a bartender is overpouring if the customers eyes get wide (with happiness) when he is watching her pour.

This guys prices are also dirt-cheap. $2.50 for a pint of Flat Tire.

I guess I just feel sorry for these guys - I would have the bands hire a soundman to run the PA, but this owner does the sound for everyone (I guess he pays them less) - but he can't watch what his bar is doing when he's running sound.

By the way - when I was running a bar we had a waitress ripping us off big time (we found out later) doing exactly the tricks I mentioned above. It is amazing how much even one bad bartender can screw up your business.

I also want to say I read about the guy in Florida who got stabbed to death on a jam night. What a shame!!! Jam nights can get weird just because some emotions run high. He sounded like a really nice guy, too.

The problem is that people who work in bars don't get any respect, even from musicians, and that is partly the point of my thread here. I think bar-owners/workers deserve a little appreciation once in awhile, instead of the reputation of "they're all d**ks" you see so often.

Yes, they made a bad business decision by opening a rock bar, and many of them continue to do so - but no bar owner's bad business decision has ever hurt me personally as a musician or a patron - just the opposite, I get a great place to see live music usually at no cover charge and the cheapest drinks in town.

[tiktok]

One thing no bar owner will ever share is a take of the bar proceeds. if you can draw a guaranteed crowd you can charge a cover charge for the band.

I've played at several bars that do that. Bars that stay afloat and have live music too.

[cob666]

Regardless of what you think, playing for free sets a bad precedent by telling the owner that you are willing to play for nothing. You will never get a fair deal after that first free show. If you aren't concerned with making money to cover YOUR expenses then just invite some friends over to your rehearsal space and play for them there.

[MuseCafeChris]

I've played at several bars that do that. Bars that stay afloat and have live music too.

Probably because whatever take was promised the band was "discounted" significantly.

Other than the "play for free" bit, cruisemates gets it. Musicians spouting off about how bar owners should run their businesses is no different from bar owners spouting off about how musicians should run their bands. Heavy on sour grapes and a know-it-all attitude, light on valuable insight.

[jimfog]

We plan to invite 100 people and really hope 50+ will show up.

If I were a club owner, bells would be going off right there, at that line.

Expecting a 50%+ turnout from your invites is, shall we say, a WEE bit optimistic.....especially on a week night.

Most gigging bands have mailing lists in the hundreds and thousands, and are happy to pull 1-5%. For example, I send out my "important" gigs (places I need to draw) to 1500+ proven, reliable contacts.......people who have expressly asked to be on my list. If I get 20 people from that list to show, it's a win. 50 and it's like Xmas arrived early.

Just sayin'.

[Dr. Jimmy]

My second reaction is why bother putting a band together at all if playing at 9:00 or later is this big of an issue for you ? Rent a room and have your own little get together for your friends.



Gotta say I agree with this. Either that or find another room that will accomodate your plans. This guy obviously has bands that are willing to do the standard 10-2 night, so why should he bend over backwards to accomodate you?

FWIW I'm 43 and am in a band with guys randing from my age to 64 and we do 10-2 gigs without any issues. We draw a crowd ranging from 21-65 or so and we keep them there. Guess it depends on whay kinda stuff you're playing too.

[boldaslove1977]

If I were a club owner, bells would be going off right there, at that line.

Expecting a 50%+ turnout from your invites is, shall we say, a WEE bit optimistic.....especially on a week night.

Most gigging bands have mailing lists in the hundreds and thousands, and are happy to pull 1-5%. For example, I send out my "important" gigs (places I need to draw) to 1500+ proven, reliable contacts.......people who have expressly asked to be on my list. If I get 20 people from that list to show, it's a win. 50 and it's like Xmas arrived early.

Just sayin'.

this.

if we get 20-25 people who came because they saw our facebook post/invite about a show... that's a huge turnout.

it doesn't sound like much... but if we're playing a place that averages say 100 people... and we bring another 25... it looks a lot busier than the average night.

then there are the places we actually don't bother over-promoting... just a simple facebook post... because no matter how many people we bring... the place is going to be mobbed anyway... and that way we don't get annoying because we are over-promoting every show.

then sometimes you get lucky and play a place that holds 500 people... and it's mobbed... and you didn't even have to do much...

it's such a hit and miss situation...

[tiktok]

Probably because whatever take was promised the band was "discounted" significantly.

Other than the "play for free" bit, cruisemates gets it. Musicians spouting off about how bar owners should run their businesses is no different from bar owners spouting off about how musicians should run their bands. Heavy on sour grapes and a know-it-all attitude, light on valuable insight.

Well, once you start assuming that bar is always ripping off the musicians, the bar staff are ripping off the owner and the musicians are ripping off the bar, it does all go a bit sour.

It all comes down to does the cover charge deter people from coming in and drinking, or drinking more. Five dollars at the door is five dollars that's not going into the bar till. But, either way, people show up at a club, and deposit money, and some of that money goes to the band. Whether the money comes from the door, or the bar, or some combination, no-one really cares as long as the number at the end of the night is a happy one.

What I'm proposing (no cover, percentage of the bar after a base amount which represents the regulars) puts most of the risk on the band--if they don't drum up measurable business, they don't get paid. Charging cover means that only people who want to see the band will come in, which for bands that haven't yet established a draw hurts the club, who typically has no reliable way to measure a band's draw before they play.

[DrJamie]

We've been doing 1 Friday/month, 6:30-9, for around 3 years. No cover, usually bringing a food and drink crowd of 40-60 folks. They rely on bands to bring business (what else?). We now get a guarantee-plus. Find a venue that wants a TGIF. They book shows after us, 10 till close. This venue has to hire a sound man, and our following makes it work. It takes a lot of promoting to get that many people out, and it helps to play music they actually like, or even the nicest folks won't come back. That's the easy part. Good luck, and keep pitching your early time slot, somebody will bite.