acoustic guitar vs. amp?

[Old Tele man]

...how much "difference" does your AMP make (positve/negative) to the sound of your acoustic GUITAR?

...I've got an Ovation EA-68 Viper that I play through either (A) Fender Super Reverb with JBL/D110F's or (B) LINE-6 Spider 112.

...obviously, neither has a bandwidth of much more than 50Hz through 5KHz or 6KHz, so highend 'sibilence' isn't there.

...they both sound GOOD (to my ears), but what's better?

[exhaust_49]

My amp definatly makes my acoustic sound slightly brighter and more sterial (sp?). There is still nothing like an acoustic played without an amp.

[waxnsteel]

It may sound good to you playing your ACOUSTIC guitar thrugh your ELECTRIC guitar amp, but it will never sound like an acoustic guitar that way. I know... Blah blah yadda compromise... Acoustic amps suck, too. The Fishman Loudbox sounded great in a ten-minute tryout at a local shop, but the acoustic amp is just an extra box on stage, and unless it can double as a mini PA, it will not do the job. Go direct to the board.

[Scott Peterson]

I find the best results - after a few years of intensly seeking an acoustic amp (and trying many) was using the JBL EON G2 powered monitor. It works fantastically.

[unclej54]

i've got an old 60w alamo bass amp head (tube) that i run into an old peavy cabinet with a 12" crate speaker that makes all of my acoustics sound great. not necessarily an accurate acoustic reproduction but i love the sound.

as far as accurate goes the best acoustic-like sounding amp i've got is a 5-6 year old crate keyboard amp that does a wonderful job.

[tthompso7]

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
I find the best results - after a few years of intensely seeking an acoustic amp (and trying many) was using the JBL EON G2 powered monitor. It works fantastically.

I'll second that, I've owned an AER Compact 60 and the big Genz Shen 200. Both nice (but in the $700-900) range. The JBL Eon will do the job and you can use it for vocals too with a small mixer.

Acoustic guitars are tough to amplify. It depends on the application, stlye of playing, venue, on and on. I have a Froggy Bottom and a Santa Cruz both with peizo's (Headway and Fishman respectively) they sound great through most pa's and amps but it sounds nothing like the guitar when played acoustically. The best way to get that is to mic your guitar and that not always practical.

[chipdog]

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
I find the best results - after a few years of intensly seeking an acoustic amp (and trying many) was using the JBL EON G2 powered monitor. It works fantastically.

Is that the 10 or the 15?

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by Old Tele man
...how much "difference" does your AMP make (positve/negative) to the sound of your acoustic GUITAR?

...I've got an Ovation EA-68 Viper that I play through either (A) Fender Super Reverb with JBL/D110F's or (B) LINE-6 Spider 112.

...obviously, neither has a bandwidth of much more than 50Hz through 5KHz or 6KHz, so highend 'sibilence' isn't there.

...they both sound GOOD (to my ears), but what's better?
Originally posted by waxnsteel
It may sound good to you playing your ACOUSTIC guitar thrugh your ELECTRIC guitar amp, but it will never sound like an acoustic guitar that way. I know... Blah blah yadda compromise... Acoustic amps suck, too. The Fishman Loudbox sounded great in a ten-minute tryout at a local shop, but the acoustic amp is just an extra box on stage, and unless it can double as a mini PA, it will not do the job. Go direct to the board.
Having thought about this (in response to Scott P in another thread), I've come to a conclusion that I agree with Old Tele man's approach not waxnsteels...

I don't like super-clean full-range systems for amplifying an acoustic guitar. They sound unnatural to me, probably because they have far more frequency range and are much too clean.

If you take the pickup signal from an acoustic-electric, and compare it to the acoustic sound from the guitar, the pickup sound will have far more string content, less body content, deeper bass and higher treble (neither of which the guitar body reproduces very well). So why amplify that as neutrally as possible? Yes, I know that this is the current way of thinking. But it seems wrong to me... I hated the Fishman Loudbox - the name sums it up, just a loud box with no tonal character or anything I'd want to listen to about it at all.

I still haven't heard an acoustic amp that I think sounds better than the original Trace Elliot (Trace Acoustic) TA100, with the varnished wood finish. This amp has four 5" speakers, so it has little really deep bass, no tweeter so it doesn't have that tizzy top-end, a complex phase-interaction sound from the four speakers (and you can phase-reverse one of them too), and more resonance from the cabinet in the non-tolex version. In short, it sounds far more 'real' to me than just amplification of a string signal, because it is purposely not hi-fi.

I wish I still had mine... must look for another. I'm currently playing through the band's PA for convenience, but I have to say I don't like it much, even though the cabs have deliberately inefficient tweeters fitted and I EQ the top-end off the guitar.

[waxnsteel]

I have a feeling, Mr. Phillips and I can't agree on much more than playing guitar is a wonderful thing. But this isn't some sort of pissing match, and your sound is in your hands. Try out a bunch of different stuff. See what you like. Go out and listen to other players and see what they're using and what you like. There are many unlikely combinations. There's a guy I know who plays in a band called "Acoustic Trauma" he plays acoustic guitar, violin, and mandolin at his shows. He sings through the PA, but his instruments all go through a DI to a small Mackie Mixer, and the main outs to an old Ampeg Bass head, then through a JBL PA speaker (15 and a horn). His instruments do not all necessarily sound the most natural or acoustic, but they do sound huge, and GOOD. I wouldn't suggest that guy change anything. Find your recipe for "Old Tele Man" sound.

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by waxnsteel
...his instruments all go through a DI to a small Mackie Mixer, and the main outs to an old Ampeg Bass head, then through a JBL PA speaker (15 and a horn). His instruments do not all necessarily sound the most natural or acoustic, but they do sound huge, and GOOD. I wouldn't suggest that guy change anything.
This is actually quite funny, because in addition to the old H|H PA cabs I have with very 'quiet' horns, my guitar goes first into a Spirit Folio mixer, then into a Peavey PA head which drives the monitors and provides (spring) reverb, and finally into a Trace Elliot AH250 bass head which powers the main speakers.

I put this rig together a couple of years ago to do an impromptu gig with just what I had to hand - I picked the Trace on the basis that it's really just a big power amp with a graphic EQ - and it still sounds better to me than most 'proper' PAs! - for the vocals as well as the guitar actually, I just turn the treble up on the vocal channels to compensate. But still not as good as the TA100 for guitar.

I'm also running a combination piezo/magnetic system on the guitar, not pure piezo. It sounds much better than either alone. Lo-fi works for me.

[Old Tele man]

John -- that's kinda how I feel: "piezo-plus-magnetic" pickup for "staggered / overlapping" tonal ranges & responses.

....hence, my initial question about which amp(s) to use/favor?...ie:

A) one (piezo amp) for both?
B) one (magnetic amp) for both?
C) or, seperate amps for each?

[Dave Orban]

I've got a Fishman Performer Pro that I use for acoustic amplification, and I like it a lot. Great sonic flexibility and does a good job of capturing the guitar's personality. Much more faithful reproduction than even the Eons, IMO... Too bad it was discontinued.

Pickups of course make a huge difference... after experimenting with a bunch, I settled on a Fishman humbucking Rare Earth Blend. It's not the most "acoustic"-sounding option available, but it's one of the most easy to amplify... so there's a bit of compromise there...

I do think the actual *guitar* is probably most important to me, because that is what is giving me the instantaneous feedback... from the feel of the neck, to the vibrations transmitted through the body, etc.

[tuna]

Trying to replicate the approach Scott took with the JBL monitor, I had the opportunity to try a SWR Blonde on Blonde powered monitor tonight at our practice. It was pretty cool. This thing can be an 80 watt powered monitor or serve as an unpowered extension cab for the California Blonde. 1-12 speaker with a tweeter (tweeter can be turned off too) I EQ'ed it with my Fishman Platinum Pro. I liked the sound of it, very clean.

[Ogre]

Ashdown makes a small acoustic amp(Acoustic Radiator I) that works very well. I tried the AER(Compact 60) on a gig, but found it too sterile. The Ashdown has more of an organic sound, and it is superior to the old Trace Elliot stuff, which I have owned and sold. It's still not as good as a real acoustic guitar sound.

[Scott Peterson]

Originally posted by chipdog
Is that the 10 or the 15?

I've had both, but settled on the 10 for the size and weight.

[dave251]

Originally posted by Old Tele man
John -- that's kinda how I feel: "piezo-plus-magnetic" pickup for "staggered / overlapping" tonal ranges & responses.

....hence, my initial question about which amp(s) to use/favor?...ie:

A) one (piezo amp) for both?
B) one (magnetic amp) for both?
C) or, seperate amps for each?

Something that surprised me in doing the initial research for my MagPi system was just how wide the frequency response of a piezo can be...essentailly about 10hz to well over 100K, and pretty darn flat.

Phase response issues will typically make the piezo sound very harsh though....the highs pass through FIRST, with the lows coming on later during the attack transient. This has the effect of sounding "trebly" when it's really just the first few milliseconds of the attack transient that sound harsh.

Mags are VERY midrangy....about 300hz to 3khz is really all they can reproduce, depending on the coil inductance and coil geometry.

So the piezo has the ability to really "open up" the frequency response, while the magnetic pickup has a more "organic" feel and touch sensitivity.....

I like BOTH in my guitars.....

Regarding the amps...try a good tube type mic pre before your mixer....tubes really sweeten things up.

Here's a sample of mostly 60% piezo/40% mag in one of my guitars, through the eC all tube amp.....


http://www.electrocoustic.com/audio/Billy%202.mp3

Here's the same guitar on lead, with about a 40%piezo/60%mag split...

http://www.electrocoustic.com/audio/Stomper%20Strut%2061305.mp3