What is the TGP opinion on Led Zeppelin's plagiarism?

[dimpler]

Many examples on youtube if you are not already familiar. Seems pretty obvious they plagiarized a lot, yet seems like they pretty much get off without any repercussions. How is that possible? How will history remember them?

[Lucidology]

If they are remembered ... it will be with hand wave gesture followed by a "whatever" ...

[shane88]

stealin is an old blooz trad and who doesn't?

[colin617]

Many examples on youtube if you are not already familiar. Seems pretty obvious they plagiarized a lot, yet seems like they pretty much get off without any repercussions. How is that possible? How will history remember them?

Can't say I care too much. Good artists borrow, great ones steal. Zeppelin are still hugely influential to me. Willie Dixon and Taurus, not so much.

[spookybonus]

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[spakuloid]

Wow! - I knew they were leaning heavily on old blues tunes but after doing some research it is totally bizarre. I am actually a bit shocked after learning all of this. Never knew it was this blatant shameless sponging of tunes. You learn something new every day.

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[shane88]

let's see off the top of my head zep tunes that 'borrowed' old blooz stuff .... o let's just say ~1/2 of them .... ie .....

gallows pole
whole lotta love
the lemon song
when the levee breaks
nobodiy's fault but mine

willie dixon wrote about 1/2 of zep1 but then again he prob stole off older blues dudes

[GA20T]

One of the greatest cover bands of all time.

[gmann]

I don't know that they got away with it, they've spent alot of time in court and alot of money payin' claims. Why would you not care, would you mind if I stole yer music and claimed it as mine? What if I sold a million copies of it, bet I'd be hearin' fm your attorney. Still, I love Zep.

[Average Joe]

what bother me isn't so much that they borrowed as the fact that they didn't give credit, writing or othervise, where it was due. Borrowing is a time honoured tradition, but own up to where you got it. I lost a lot of respect of LZ when I learned that

[StompBoxBlues]

Reading up on Led Zep, I find they DID give credit as well as money to some of the old blues folk they played the songs of.

For my self, I'm totally fine with Led Zep. I realize that a great deal of blues is stolen, often the one that got recorded...wasn't the guy that wrote it even back then...folks stole from each other, taught each other...you find the same lyrics running in several songs, same changes, melody, etc.

I also think Led Zep brought something new to the table. When they did some of the old blues songs (and honestly...it is TOTALLY overhyped on how much of their catalog was "stolen"...seriously, the first couple of albums had a few, then sprinkled in among are more, but they wrote a helluva lot of songs, way more than they took...) they did it differently. Pages solos, his sound, his comping, and the vocals...all of it, different.

This to me is much ado about nothing....

[Sweetfinger]

^^^ SERIOUSLY? ^^^
IIRC Willie Dixon had to SUE them for his money.

Of course we all know that Jimmy Page "invented" playing the electric guitar with a violin bow- except he didn't, Eddie Phillips of the band, "The Creation" did it first. If it works great, steal it!
witnesseth the schtick about 1:40 in
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It was certainly shocking to me the first time I heard these songs:
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[GA20T]

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[greggorypeccary]

I guess it was about time for another Zep thread, it's been a few months...

Anyways, they borrowed a lot on the first two records, gave credit on some but not others. Got sued some, settled. Not that it makes it OK, but it's not like they are the only one's who ever did that.

By IV they were definitely doing their own thing.


BTW - Led Zeppelin was the most awesomest rock band EVER! :dude

[jimfog]

Jimmy Page should be behind bars....or an unknown pauper (or local yokel bar band guitarist...same difference!!), at least....for THIS rip-off, alone.

Disgraceful.

pTsvs-pAGDc

[huw]

Here we go again...

[tapeworm]

what bother me isn't so much that they borrowed as the fact that they didn't give credit, writing or othervise, where it was due. Borrowing is a time honoured tradition, but own up to where you got it. I lost a lot of respect of LZ when I learned that

this

[clarkydaz]

theres also a shocking steal of since i been loving you. came across it last time this topic came up on tgp. that one really stuck the knife in me

[drewl]

They definitely made those songs their own and added interesting things to them, but the original artists should have been credited from the beginning.
From what I've read, their contemporaries (Cream, Stones etc.) knew where their songs came from, and thats why Zep didn't get much respect at first.
Of course they came to be a force to be reckoned with.

[larimar]

(imo)......The more variety of music listened to over time the more one starts to hear plagiarism in just about all of it. Especially the "close imitation" aspects of the definition.

[harpinon]

I have a CD called The Roots of Led Zeppelin. They really did "steal" many songs and put their name on it. Like a song called "Gallis pole". Same song. Few different lyrics. Name changed to Gallows pole. Of course Gallis was just another way of saying Gallows.

It does not bother me at all. Though they should give credit where due IMO.

[54GT]

Unlike Clapton and others of their time, they never gave credit to those they "borrowed" from, except when compelled to do so. pretty low.

[mannish]

I think I remember in the SRV book he ran into Larry Davis (Texas Flood) and gave him some cash out of his pocket to make sure he was getting some

Didn't the Rolling Stones refuse to do Shindig unless Wolf was also on the show

I was never a big fan of Zeps anyway

bad thing is Zep was capable of writing tunes

Since the courts ruled in Dixon's favor justice was served

[tonegangster]

I guess it was about time for another Zep thread, it's been a few months...

Anyways, they borrowed a lot on the first two records, gave credit on some but not others. Got sued some, settled. Not that it makes it OK, but it's not like they are the only one's who ever did that.

By IV they were definitely doing their own thing. :bonk


BTW - Led Zeppelin was the most awesomest rock band EVER! :dude

Glad to know it only took them 3 albums to get it out of their system!!

[rwe333]

Early LZ isn't my fave... They sure came into their own during the middle period... There are few rock recordings as unique as Houses of the Holy, Presence, Physical Graffitti, and even In Through the Out Door.
Didn't Zep settle some lawsuits for any plagiarism? Then, I guess, it's settled - no?
Little doubt the ethics re: their early rip-offs are suspect - Zep biz was always somewhat, uh, "unique" w/ the likes of Peter Grant in charge.

[imonabuss]

I lost my respect for them because they didn't do a little plagiarizing, they robbed wholesale from old blues, contemporary, it didn't matter to them. And it wasn't just Page; Plant's vocals were robbed wholesale from Steve Marriot. Slickly packaged by powerful investors, but it was as low as it gets.

[DWB1960]

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/angry_mob.gif

[huutevar]

The "borrowed" songs should have been credited. I'm glad that they recorded those songs, though, no one else could have performed them like they did.

[Ruraltom]

The Bert Jansch stuff has always been the most mind blowing to me, they really copped everything- tuning, the song note for note, etc. Thats egregious, totally theft not a cover! The rest of it... at least there were more substantial changes?

[indravayu]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/12/28/129065226180439461.jpg

[korby]

I wish they stole more and for a lot more years .

[TD_Madden]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/12/28/129065226180439461.jpg

Yeah, seems like an annual event...and everyone is always shocked and disappointed....again.

[Alister]

Everybody wanted to be a rock star in 1969, and no one was that picky about "whatever it takes."

....Oh, wait. It was just like it is now.

[todaystomorrow]

Yes... we at TGP have an opinion about this.

Hey, I've never seen or heard these guys before... thanks for posting that:



Oig8z4HvBL8&feature=related

[jtm622]

Lots of the things Zep supposedly "plagarized" were bordering on being blues & rock music cliches, IMO...
C'mon, now - everyone and their dog was using that worn-out "Am" chord line with the descending root by the time Zep got around to writing "Stairway"... Also: accusing a successful rock band of stealing an old 12-bar "blues idea" is like accusing AJ Foyt of speeding at the "Indianapolis 500"...

It was the "performance" that made those Zep songs rise above the crowd, IMO... Plant's vocals and Page's production were the factors which made Zep such a standout success...

But if Page owes anybody a debt of gratitude for the template he used in forming Led Zep, it would be to Paul Samwell-Smith of the "Yardbirds"...

[TNJ]

Goodness gracious!

My Sweet Lord! ...who remembers that ripoff?

:D

S.
j

[2HBStrat]

I watched part of "Cadillac Records" last weekend. (EVERYONE should watch this movie). I missed the beginning but apparently it was based on Willie Dixon's book. Anyway, if I remember correctly it was mentioned that Led Zeppelin had to pay Willie Dixon a million dollars. You know, that's a lot of money, but is it enough based on Led Zeppelin's sales? Even though it was only the early albums that contain stolen songs, if it hadn't been for those songs and the sales of those early albums the later albums wouldn't have happened at all. In fact it could be said that Led Zeppelin's entire career is based on the early success which was based largely on stolen songs, so a million seems pretty cheap to me. And that's not even mentioning Jake Holmes and Bert Jansch and whether they ever received credit or money.

[cob666]

I have a CD called The Roots of Led Zeppelin. They really did "steal" many songs and put their name on it. Like a song called "Gallis pole". Same song. Few different lyrics. Name changed to Gallows pole. Of course Gallis was just another way of saying Gallows.

It does not bother me at all. Though they should give credit where due IMO.

Gallows Pole was a traditional song and Zep pretty much covered the Kingston Trio version, similar to them pretty much covering the Joan Baez version of Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You.

Aside from them playing traditional songs that they shouldn't be given grief for, they definitely did 'borrow' many songs (or parts of) on their first two albums. But, finding this out when I was younger merely opened up that other world to me. I thought WOW, if Page is ripping off this guy Willie Dixon he must be pretty good and I started to listen to older blues stuff that I'd never heard if not for that.

[pickaguitar]

Jimmy Page should be behind bars....or an unknown pauper (or local yokel bar band guitarist...same difference!!), at least....for THIS rip-off, alone.

Disgraceful.

pTsvs-pAGDc
This alone says about as much as one can...pretty blatent including the breakdown.
I LOVE Jimmy but hadn't heard this before :(

[2HBStrat]

... I thought WOW, if Page is ripping off this guy Willie Dixon he must be pretty good and I started to listen to older blues stuff that I'd never heard if not for that.

Well, apparently Willie Dixon wasn't too happy about it. He had to sue LZ to get his money...

[korby]

This ROCKS !! Thanks !

jY-xpa9GWuo&feature=player_embedded#at=227

[gmann]

I wish they stole more and for a lot more years .

I wish they had stolen your music, assuming you have some, and made millions and didn't give you any money. Then some guy on an internet forum could say I wish they had stolen more of Korby's music and for a lot more years. It's all good right?

[spakuloid]

Since I was a kid stealing my mom's Zeppelin records I always thought - like most people - that Jimmy Page had a line to some magic part of his brain where all of this amazing songwriting just flowed like water. The Stairway To Heaven example kind of blows my mind. As an adult songwriter it is just blatant theft for part of a song that made me pick up the guitar as a 10 year old kid. If that makes any sense. Certainly takes them down a few pegs on my list of "greatness". And I can tell you that most people do not know any of this. TGP is full of musicians who have access to people "in the know". For those of you who are over it - or been there done that - why not just move on to another topic. Page is still a great musician - but now I know he is human. A lying thieving scamming fat pie faced human. Still like the music though. And yes - they did write amazing stuff and put their stank on other people's creations - similar to what sampling artists do today - but now I don't think they are "gods". The Beatles however...

[Neer]

It bothers me quite a bit, actually.

[zep41]

Yes... we at TGP have an opinion about this.

Hey, I've never seen or heard these guys before... thanks for posting that:

Yea -- awesome song.

Just FYI to the original poster of the Creation you tube link: Page has never claimed he was the first to use a bow. He has recognized that Eddie Phillips, Syd Barrett, Roger Waters, and others have used it before him. Page got the idea of using the bow I think when he was in a session and someone suggested he give it a try. He didn't origninate it, and that is well known.

Eddie Phillips, if I'm not mistaken, was a Zep roadie at least for 1969, maybe longer.

[billyguitar]

Page did Dazed and Confused first with The Yardbyrds. Was that before or after the Jake Holmes version?

I find it odd that they didn't go thru Harry Fox or a similar agency, and pay the small rights to record other people's tunes. If the song and songwriter weren't listed there wouldn't have been much they could do about it.

[DWB1960]

This ROCKS !! Thanks !

jY-xpa9GWuo&feature=player_embedded#at=227

Quick fact check. Bert Jansch did not write this tune. It's his version of an old Irish folk song that's been played by many for eons. Al Stewart was the one who taught Jimmy Page the tune during a session prior to Zeppelin even being formed.

And as early as the mid 70s Page hardly gave an interview where he didn't give props to Bert. And he's continued to do so since whenever he's asked about his influences. Safe to say that Bert has benefited from this.

But ya'll go back to slagging on Zep for stealing all of their stuff.

[DWB1960]

Page got the idea of using the bow I think when he was in a session and someone suggested he give it a try. He didn't origninate it, and that is well known.

It was violinist David McCallum Sr. who suggested it to Page during a session. McCallum is the dad of David Jr. from the TV show Man from Uncle.

[CRAIG4FSU]

BTW - Led Zeppelin was the most awesomest rock band EVER! :dude
:agreeSo get over it folks!!

[tiktok]

Having heard the original "When The Levee Breaks", I wish they'd 'stolen' every blues tune and redone it. Blues tunes are folk songs--just because someone recorded it first doesn't mean that they didn't piece it together or 'steal' it from a bunch of other blues musicians.

The Jake Holmes was out and out theft, and they should pay the royalties, and I think they have now after many years.

The other things--Stairway, that also sounds like a co-write.

But, if you're going to steal something, make sure that your version is way better than the original. So, they've got that going for them.

[Allen in San Jose]

One of the greatest cover bands of all time.

:rotflmaoI love it!

[colin617]

If Zep (or someone else that big) stole a song from me, I'd probably be ok with it. Yeah, I might be offended, but I'd get over it. Here's the thing: I'm already not making money off of my original songs. If someone can find a way to, then good on them. What are they going to do? Come to my house and steal my piggy bank? How exactly are they robbing me? I wouldn't be any more poor than I already was. Maybe some wise guy on the internet will call the band out on it and then draw more attention to me, but, other than making a quick buck by suing a famous band, having one of my songs stolen wouldn't change my life in any significant way.

[stratzrus]

Reading up on Led Zep, I find they DID give credit as well as money to some of the old blues folk they played the songs of.

This to me is much ado about nothing....It wouldn't be if it was your song they ripped off.

Giving "some money" is far different than paying royalties. Page et al. rode around in limos while the people they ripped off lived like paupers.

It's hardly much ado about nothing.

[clarkydaz]

lot of people seem to work that shift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmcckH4fqg

[jguitarnash]

Zep ripped off tons of tunes but at the same time took them to new levels.

[Theroyalconsort]

Hey... Every poet is a thief....

I bet everyone here has either diliberately or acidentally nicked a riff or two.

I know for a fact I've written a few bits and then found them in my or someone elses record collection a few days later.....

[tiktok]

Page did Dazed and Confused first with The Yardbyrds. Was that before or after the Jake Holmes version?

After.

[roadfilm]

They might have done an Elvis and bought the old bluesmen Caddies or a summer house or something. They certainly could have afforded it, and would have gone a long way to ameliorating the criticism they now receive. Not mandatory, but it would have been cool. =•)

Elvis didn't take songs and put his name on them as the writer of those songs. Page and Plant did. If you look at the original albums the songs they stole didn't have the original writers credited. The reissues do but that's because they were sued and lost so they had to. They didn't do it out of kindness or respect for the original writers.

[jollygreen]

They definitely made those songs their own and added interesting things to them, but the original artists should have been credited from the beginning.

Then, they (LZ) should only have taken credit for the arrangement.

[sixty2strat]

Elvis didn't take songs and put his name on them as the writer of those songs. Page and Plant did. If you look at the original albums the songs they stole didn't have the original writers credited. The reissues do but that's because they were sued and lost so they had to. They didn't do it out of kindness or respect for the original writers.
Elvis did If you wanted him to do your tune Col. Tom gotthe King a
co-writter credit. Not the same exactly but not on the up n up

[Dave2512]

Lots of misinformation in this thread, many of the examples given were legit covers where LZ credited the song covered to someone else besides themselves. That said there are more obvious instances where the band used somebody’s ideas, music and lyrics without giving credit.

But make no mistake there is a big difference between some old blues guy taking what heard in a time before technology and laws protecting artists and making it part of his repertoire via oral tradition and what LZ did. They used someone else’s music and ideas and claimed it as their own in a time when it was wrong to do that. Examples like Dazed and Confused, no matter how much better LZ made the song, shouldn't be ignored. Page’s handling of that controversy has been very tacky.

[michael30]

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[rob2001]

You could take all the songs they borrowed from out of thier work and i'd still think they were a great band.

[EricPeterson]

They should have been much better about crediting artists, and should have paid proper royalties, that said, I feel they did transform many of the songs and make them their own.

[Aaron Smith]

I think it's morally reprehensible, but it's also part of a long-standing tradition of theft and exploitation. So why single out Led Zeppelin?

Blues artists have been exploited by "the man" since there was such a thing as blues. Everybody holds Alan Lomax up on this pedestal as this wonderful blues historian... his whole motivation behind going to the Delta and recording the primitive blues artists was to claim the publishing rights. He lived handsomely on his reward.

I think if it weren't for this pattern of exploitation, blues may never have found a larger audience or influenced popular music to any great extent. The fact that music from the rural American south was even available to a bunch of English kids in boarding schools in the 1950's is somewhat amazing, actually. Why not polynesian folk songs? Or eastern European gypsy music?

[Rockinrob86]

Many of these blues songs go back way further than willie dixon. Willie was a very smart guy, and a talented guy, but at chess records, if you wanted to record, you had to let willie in on the publishing. Almost every single artist on chess has told of how when their records came out, they saw willie dixon credits pushed onto songs they wrote.

For an easy example, start looking into "catfish blues". There at least 5 other popular songs that are roughly the same, and all are credited to different people. I would guess NONE of the people credited wrote it. It has probably been around in evolving forms for 100 years or more.

Blues songs are typically i iv v changes with some lyrics on top, and for many of the zep "cover" tunes, there is original music with traditional blues idiom lyrics.


Has anyone listened to the rest of stairway? it shares a 4 chord sequence in the beginning with that spirit song (and is a common chord movement regardless)!

All music is theft, especially blues folk and other traditional styles. Zep should have credited jake holmes, but even that example is so vastly different compared to the original. I also think otis rush shouldve gotten credit because of how close the music is, but for the rest of those blues tunes, they didnt really start with willie dixon.


Zep added to the cannon in the same way that muddy waters did before them and spread the gospel of those old tunes far and wide

[GA20T]

This ROCKS !! Thanks !

jY-xpa9GWuo&feature=player_embedded#at=227

That album's excellent. Jack Orion. Bert is a great player, performer and songwriter and deserves the friggin' credit!

[small axe]

they should have given credit to the people who deserved credit....yet they still rock....

[Rockinrob86]

That albums excellent. Bert is a great player, performer and songwriter and deserves the friggin' credit!


Bert didn't actually write that melody, it is based on a traditional irish tune. He got it from Isla Cameron and supposedly she got it from Bert Lloyd

[GA20T]

Bert didn't actually write that melody, it is based on a traditional irish tune.

Due to page completely ripping off that arrangement and everything, he probably shouldve credited bert with the arrangement or something. but he does make a point of mentioning bert often, and I bought Bert Jansch records because Jimmy page said to in interviews

Like a lot of traditional folk songs, I'm sure that's true. Do you know where it originates? If so, I'm interested. It's not my intent to point a finger at Page, so much as I believe the original writers/arrangers/performers of said copped pieces deserve our recognition. "Going to California" fans should like Jack Orion as well, and if they'd give it a listen, they'd soon realize why. Being a fan of Page's, and when one realizes the extent to which Jansch outright "influenced" his acoustic work with Zep, I'd say Jansch is worth taking a lesson from. He was good enough for Page to use verbatim, after all.

[DWB1960]

From a 70s interview with Page:

You used a Danelectro with the Yardbirds?

Yes, but not with Beck. I did use it in the latter days. I used it onstage for "White Summer" (Little Games). I used a special tuning for that; the low string down to D, then A, D, G, A and D. It's like a modal tuning, a sitar tuning, in fact.

Was "Black Mountain Side" (done on Led Zeppelin) an extension of that?

I wasn't totally original on that. It had been done to death in the folk clubs a lot; Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was (English guitarist) Bert Jansch's version. He's the one who crystallized all the acoustic playing as far as I'm concerned. Those first few albums of his were absolutely brilliant. And the tuning on "Black Mountain Side" is the same as "White Summer." It's taken a bit of battering, the Danelectro guitar, I'm afraid.

[Rockinrob86]

Like a lot of traditional folk songs, I'm sure that's true. Do you know where it originates? If so, I'm interested. It's not my intent to point a finger at Page, so much as I believe the original writers/arrangers/performers of said copped pieces deserve our recognition. "Going to California" fans should like Jack Orion as well, and if they'd give it a listen, they'd soon realize why. Being a fan of Page's, and when one realizes the extent to which Jansch outright "influenced" his acoustic work with Zep, I'd say Jansch is worth taking a lesson from. He was good enough for Page to use verbatim, after all.

you beat my editing!


I heard someone found a lyric sheet in a folk anthology in a library in england that listed the tune as having 16th century origins.


On another note, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Peter Grant had something to do with not crediting anyone else for anything on the original zep records.

[DWB1960]

On another note, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Peter Grant had something to do with not crediting anyone else for anything on the original zep records.

You Shook Me, I Can't Quit You Babe, and Babe I'm Gonna Leave You were all credited to others on Led Zeppelin I. Even on the original vinyl album.

[Rockinrob86]

also while on bert jansch, check out needle of death compared to neil young's ambulance blues...


After doing some digging, I found this quote from Anne Briggs:
Well, I don’t know anything about the band, I don’t even know who Jimmy Page is. I’ve never been to a Led Zeppelin gig. I once heard a recording of Black Mountain Side, as they call it, and I realized immediately where they’d got it from.

If he says he heard me play it in a folk club, well he might have. But having said that, I learnt it from somebody else who’s never got the credit. The song I learnt from Bert Lloyd, who was a splendid collector of folk songs, now dead. The song I learnt from him was unaccompanied. The riff I learnt from a friend called Stan Ellison. It was Stan who designed the musical accompaniment, the one I recorded, which was nothing like Bert Jansch’s version. Bert heard me sing Black Waterside and did his own accompaniment, as he always does. I learnt an awful lot of songs from Bert Lloyd, and most of the songs I learnt from him Bert Jansch learnt from me!

If Led Zeppelin have a massive amount of money, as you say, they should certainly pay Bert Lloyd’s widow; because it was Bert Lloyd who really put that song together from fragments. And if they wanted to pay anybody else, the money should go to Stan Ellison, not to me.

But all this [borrowing and influencing], it’s been done throughout history. It’s how music develops. When people sang for pleasure and nobody got any money for it then it was great, no problem. The problems come into it when money starts flying around, which is why this bloody old chestnut is still clonking around the universe! (Mojo, December 1994, p. 50).

[Rockinrob86]

You Shook Me, I Can't Quit You Babe, and Babe I'm Gonna Leave You were all credited to others on Led Zeppelin I. Even on the original vinyl album.


Im at work:) I thought they were credited to the whole band

[GA20T]

also while on bert jansch, check out needle of death compared to neil young's ambulance blues...


After doing some digging, I found this quote from Anne Briggs:
Well, I don’t know anything about the band, I don’t even know who Jimmy Page is. I’ve never been to a Led Zeppelin gig. I once heard a recording of Black Mountain Side, as they call it, and I realized immediately where they’d got it from.

If he says he heard me play it in a folk club, well he might have. But having said that, I learnt it from somebody else who’s never got the credit. The song I learnt from Bert Lloyd, who was a splendid collector of folk songs, now dead. The song I learnt from him was unaccompanied. The riff I learnt from a friend called Stan Ellison. It was Stan who designed the musical accompaniment, the one I recorded, which was nothing like Bert Jansch’s version. Bert heard me sing Black Waterside and did his own accompaniment, as he always does. I learnt an awful lot of songs from Bert Lloyd, and most of the songs I learnt from him Bert Jansch learnt from me!

If Led Zeppelin have a massive amount of money, as you say, they should certainly pay Bert Lloyd’s widow; because it was Bert Lloyd who really put that song together from fragments. And if they wanted to pay anybody else, the money should go to Stan Ellison, not to me.

But all this [borrowing and influencing], it’s been done throughout history. It’s how music develops. When people sang for pleasure and nobody got any money for it then it was great, no problem. The problems come into it when money starts flying around, which is why this bloody old chestnut is still clonking around the universe! (Mojo, December 1994, p. 50).

Wow, thanks for digging all that up. Good call on Ambulance Blues as well.

[DWB1960]

Im at work:) I thought they were credited to the whole band

Nyet.

[Chrome Dinette]

Nobody's Fault But Mine is credited to Page/Plant. True, it's probably different enough from the traditional song associated with Blind Willie Johnson(the BWJ cd I have credits it to Johnson, even though he may not have wrote it, either) but "Traditional, arr. By Page/Plant might be more accurate.

[Dave2512]

Even if you take the blues songs and "tradition" argument out of it there is no way to explain Dazed And Confused. There is no homage or paying tribute to an early influence. It's a blatant cop of someone else's song without giving credit.

[DWB1960]

Even if you take the blues songs and "tradition" argument out of it there is no way to explain Dazed And Confused. There is no homage or paying tribute to an early influence. It's a blatant cop of someone else's song without giving credit.

Blatant? Page copped the 10 note descending riff. The rest of Zep's arraignment and production is nothing like Holme's version. And then there's the lyrics - Zep used 3 of the same words. Not excusing the boys for copping the idea from Holmes but this is pretty damn far from blatantly copping someones song. But as is always the case with Zep, folks love to exaggerate things to death.

Jake's Lyrics

I'm dazed and confused, is it stay is it go?
am I being choosed? well I'd just like to know
give me a clue as to where I am at
feel like a mouse and you act like a cat

I'm dazed and confused, hanging on be a thread
I'm being abused, I'd be better off dead
I can't stand this teasing, I'm starting to crack
you're out to get me, you're on the right track

yeah, I'm dazed and confused and it's all upside down
am I being choosed? do you want me around?
secrets are fun to a certain degree
but this one's no fun 'cause the secret's on me

Zep's Lyrics:

Been Dazed and Confused for so long it's not true.
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you.
Lots of people talk and few of them know,
soul of a woman was created below.

You hurt and abuse tellin' all of your lies.
Run around sweet baby, Lord how they hypnotize.
Sweet little baby, I don't know where you've been.
Gonna love you baby, here I come again.

Every day I work so hard, bringin' home my hard earned pay
Try to love you baby, but you push me away.
Don't know where you're goin', only know just where you've been,
Sweet little baby, I want you again.

Been dazed and confused for so long, it's not true.
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you.
Take it easy baby, let them say what they will.
Will your tongue wag so much when I send you the bill?

[Funky54]

Wow......just read a whole lot of hate. Zepplin rules. Your many words didnt change a thing. I would of never heard half ...ok any of the songs they borrowed from. They are not interesting or moving. Jimmy made it all cool, loud and Rock.

I like the Ferarri. Dont tell me I can only like the horse and buggy. things progress and take new shape. I'll stick with rock.

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

If they are remembered ... it will be with hand wave gesture followed by a "whatever" ...



Ha! What do you mean if? They steamrollered the 70s. They'll be remembered. :red

If they plagerized at all, it was pretty loose early on .... I mean, there are only so many notes in an octave :dunno

Albums like Houses and Graffitti was nothing short of amazing .... who did the originals on those albums? :confused:

[colin617]

"Good artists borrow, great ones steal." -- Pablo Picasso

Zep rocked and they paid the writers. Justice served. End of story.

[EricPeterson]

Donnie, fight the good fight, I am with you!


Like I said before, they could have been better at giving credit, but really they used the original idea as a launching point to create something considerably more than what they borrowed and truly made a unique composition far beyond the original source.

[Dave2512]

Blatant? Page copped the 10 note descending riff. The rest of Zep's arraignment and production is nothing like Holme's version. And then there's the lyrics - Zep used 3 of the same words. Not excusing the boys for copping the idea from Holmes but this is pretty damn far from blatantly copping someones song. But as is always the case with Zep, folks love to exaggerate things to death.

Jake's Lyrics

I'm dazed and confused, is it stay is it go?
am I being choosed? well I'd just like to know
give me a clue as to where I am at
feel like a mouse and you act like a cat

I'm dazed and confused, hanging on be a thread
I'm being abused, I'd be better off dead
I can't stand this teasing, I'm starting to crack
you're out to get me, you're on the right track

yeah, I'm dazed and confused and it's all upside down
am I being choosed? do you want me around?
secrets are fun to a certain degree
but this one's no fun 'cause the secret's on me

Zep's Lyrics:

Been Dazed and Confused for so long it's not true.
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you.
Lots of people talk and few of them know,
soul of a woman was created below.

You hurt and abuse tellin' all of your lies.
Run around sweet baby, Lord how they hypnotize.
Sweet little baby, I don't know where you've been.
Gonna love you baby, here I come again.

Every day I work so hard, bringin' home my hard earned pay
Try to love you baby, but you push me away.
Don't know where you're goin', only know just where you've been,
Sweet little baby, I want you again.

Been dazed and confused for so long, it's not true.
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you.
Take it easy baby, let them say what they will.
Will your tongue wag so much when I send you the bill?

That's not blatant enough? How much more obvious does it need to be to be considered blatant? Without Jake's song their song wouldn't have existed.

[chrisr777]

This whole thread is a blatant ripoff of one we had two years ago. But not quite a ripoff of the one from six months ago because the words are changed. I don't think the one from '08 has been mentioned at all. What is with that? Giving no credit to the posters from '08 just sucks because, as we know, some of them are not with us any more like Tag.

Forget the blues ripoffs, lets get down to the more serious topic of what is worse. Page's sloppy style or the way his tone really went down hill after Zep III.

:sarcasm

Just in case nobody could tell. Now you can't say it's nobody's fault but mine.

[EricPeterson]

That's not blatant enough? How much more obvious does it need to be to be considered blatant? Without Jake's song their song wouldn't have existed.


And with out Led Zeppelin's song you would have never heard his. Just sayin.

[Dave2512]

I don't think Page is all that sloppy just that he had lots of exposure for people to critique his technique. He's no more sloppy than anyone else of his era. Sure there were a few that had more precision at times but in his day he was the norm. Honestly I think some of what he did that could be considered sloppy was intentional with the feel of the music being his guide. His precision acoustic picking shows a player that could be precise. Though live his playing could be a little wobbly.

[rob2001]

I don't think we can apply 2011 logic to the music business in 1969.
I'm sure Zep themselves never dreamed they'd become such a huge success. If they had remained as insignificant as some of the folks they borrowed from, no one would know or care about a band playing something that was derived from something else. And I think it would be insane to think they would not have had success without those borrowed songs.

It would be interesting to know how many songs are in LZ's catalog, and how many songs are in the category of "borrowed without credit". Personally I always knew they had a few songs that were more or less covers. It wasn't until I got on line in 2001 that I started hearing about plagiarism.

[fakeox]

Great takes on previous tunes. Everyone does it.. Not many coming up with a LZ1.

[Dave2512]

And with out Led Zeppelin's song you would have never heard his. Just sayin.

So what? Just because an artist covers someone's song and takes it to new heights it's a free pass to ignore that someone else wrote it? No matter how much hot-rodding LZ did to the song it's still JH's song and they borrowed heavily from his original theme. It's more than a few lyrics and a descending line. The changed lyrics are sung with the same number of syllables per line and with the same inflection etc.

It's not the same thing as taking a popular and decades old boogie guitar pattern and singing different lyrics over it. Jake was an artist of Page's time with an album out with and Page used his idea without giving credit. No matter how obscure he is and how great LZ is there is no other way to spin it with regard to DAC.

[DWB1960]

So what? Just because an artist covers someone's song and takes it to new heights it's a free pass to ignore that someone else wrote it?

Ok. You are right. Page is Satan's spawn. He should burn in eternal hell.

Feel better now? ;)

[sanhozay]

lot of sympathy for the "victims" maimed by rock 'n roll but two axes and four quadrants equals music, with the names changed to protect the thick as thieves and their circle of fifths.

[Jazzydave]

Many examples on youtube if you are not already familiar. Seems pretty obvious they plagiarized a lot, yet seems like they pretty much get off without any repercussions. How is that possible? How will history remember them?

There are so many speculations...and in many cases, they weren't doing anything that wasn't done before them. Has anyone ever listened to the very early recordings of blues and folk music? There are intertwining lyrics, music, inflections, just about everything. Bob Dylan was blatantly "inspired" by The Anthology of American Folk Music.

There's no doubt that they were running with music that had been well established...and I'm not saying they were in the right, but they're not the only band/artists that did it. I don't see why they are always the scapegoat for this kind of behavior.

I hear people copping others on the radio all of the time...regardless of whether it's the oldies or modern pop.

...and didn't they settle all of this years ago?

[DWB1960]

I don't see why they are always the scapegoat for this kind of behavior.

Because they made zillions of dollars, broke numerous attendance records, are one of the biggest selling artists of all time, and lots of folks just love dumping on Jimmy Page/Zep for some reason.

The Stones, The Who, and The Beatles are freaking saints that can do no wrong with the same crowd.

Been a member here for many years now and I've seen it over and over and over again.

[Jazzydave]

Because they made zillions of dollars, broke numerous attendance records, are one of the biggest selling artists of all time, and lots of folks just love dumping on Jimmy Page/Zep for some reason.

The Stones, The Who, and The Beatles are freaking saints that can do no wrong with the same crowd.

Been a member here for many years now and I've seen it over and over and over again.

Nearly three years here myself and agree...

[SGNick]

How you can defend the Dazed and Confused case is beyond me. They played the signature riff, and they took the lyrical hook.

That's like saying "They didn't steal my car! They left me the air conditioner and the radio!"

[karmadave]

They claimed publishing credit for many tunes, and parts, that they simply did not write. It's one thing to cover songs, it's quite another to claim publishing credit when someone else already owns the copyright. Zeppelin was rightfully sued and in many cases end up paying the original artists or their estate. This doesn't take away from the great music Zeppelin produced, but in my opinion they should have given proper credit, and paid royalties, from the very beginning. At this point, it's water under the bridge...

[champion ruby]

I am not a zeppelin fan purely because it's been overplayed. As far as plagiarism goes it's a product of the time and I feel that even if they ripped off every song they wrote there was still something personal about it and it was more of a reinvention rather than a butchered blatant copy. As for royalties, respect or proper credit been given to the artists they borrowed from I do think more could have been done. There was too much ego in the way at the time and too many people hyped on what they were that it seemed a bit of a dead issue to them, thats my theory anyway.

[mbargav]

Not a huge Zep fan, but I love Jimmy Page (just can't stand Plant's voice). I've read more of these rip-off articles/threads than I can count, and listened to every clip posted. Every single time, the Zep version has been vastly superior to the original. There's good reason that Zep will be better remembered than the original artist.

[Conisewer]

My house just shook from the facepalm that I just made..... Many of you are missing the point: Many of the blues artists that Led Zeppelin "stole" from most likely got many of their songs (or were at least influenced) by other artists, and mixed them up in their own way, just as Zeppelin did. I believe that Zeppelin is picked on so much because of how huge they got doing what other people had been doing for years. Say you saw some blues guy playing a gig in a bar in the '50's. Do you think he's gonna have a sign on his mic stand specifying where he got his influence for each of his songs, and how similar they are? No. I seriously doubt that Muddy Waters wrote every lick, riff, and chord progression that he recorded and made money from. He had plenty of original stuff, just as Zeppelin did, but I don't think that ANY of those guys who Zeppelin is accused of copying have a totally original catalog of music. And, I'm sure that if Muddy Waters were to get as big as Zep, he would have just as many people chasing him around wanting a wad cash.

[Jazzydave]

I am not a zeppelin fan purely because it's been overplayed.

I'm not saying you're wrong for a personal opinion...and I just wanted to point out that my favorite Zepp music is rarely (if ever) played on the radio or anywhere else. As crazy as it may seem, I'm a bigger fan of their acoustic work...and those gems lost on their later albums.

Over the years I've talked to people who say they didn't like Zepp bc of the overplay of songs like Stairway and Black Dog. When I introduced them to the catalogue of music that's not the FM rockers...most of their opinions changed.

To say that I've been inspired by Zepp is a huge understatement but I just wanted to toss that out there...this one's among the more popular on the acoustic side...but either way...

NdWPkgtaOTw

[jtm622]

How did the industry work in those days? Could artists just tell the record company (Atlantic in this case?) "hey, here's some original songs," and there'd be no questions asked? Didn't the corporations themselves do some kind of checks, or have people whose job it was to make the call on whether it was too close to some other songs?

Would be interesting to know how many people were in on it, or who looked the other way, or who didn't care, if infringement on published stuff really happened (not assuming that it did, though I admit the case against LZ at least looks suspicious)


Just curious

The label would not take the hit from any monetary judgments awarded against the artist; as presumably, the artist was paid any agreed upon mechanical royalties, etc., as per their contract with the record label - and the record label was likely indemnified (in bold 12-point print right there in the recording contract) against any/all plagiarism claims (and the like) against the artist... Record company attorneys do not tend to do sloppy work when it comes to "assigning liability" in a contract... :)

[sixty2strat]

My house just shook from the facepalm that I just made..... Many of you are missing the point: Many of the blues artists that Led Zeppelin "stole" from most likely got many of their songs (or were at least influenced) by other artists, and mixed them up in their own way, just as Zeppelin did. I believe that Zeppelin is picked on so much because of how huge they got doing what other people had been doing for years. Say you saw some blues guy playing a gig in a bar in the '50's. Do you think he's gonna have a sign on his mic stand specifying where he got his influence for each of his songs, and how similar they are? No. I seriously doubt that Muddy Waters wrote every lick, riff, and chord progression that he recorded and made money from. He had plenty of original stuff, just as Zeppelin did, but I don't think that ANY of those guys who Zeppelin is accused of copying have a totally original catalog of music. And, I'm sure that if Muddy Waters were to get as big as Zep, he would have just as many people chasing him around wanting a wad cash.


My view pretty much, for the most part it's pointless....the jake holmes thing is a bit dodgy but no way is that a note for note lift, I go so bored I gave up listening

Still everyone steals
A slave from africa hear European harmony and instruments and combines both ideas as a work song and teachs his fellow slaves the song


years latter Blind Willie so and so heard a lick played by a share cropper working 14 hour days on a farm.

Blind Willie takes that lick and mods it a bit. Travels around playing music a few days a week dressing in a smart suit, never toiling in the Sun drinking good wiskey and nailing a ton of ass.

Guy hears him takes that lick mods it buys a 52 goldtop brand new and calls himself little holwing big muddy wolf. Signs a contract has a bunch of hits buys a house in the nice part of town and gets a 57 caddy.


Some pasty ass english kid hears that lick on the radio mods it under the influence of Drugs and modern technology has a hit buys alister Crowley Books and several country estates ,does stuff thatwould get 30 years in the hole, buys several hundred guitars 2 or 3 ex wives each younger than the last, collects cars has a private jet and gets made a KBE ...........

David Coverdale n Bon Jovi then make billions after de souling the riff


it's called upwardmobility....so get that dead african a lawyer there are a lot of cats to sue

[Neer]

My house just shook from the facepalm that I just made..... Many of you are missing the point: Many of the blues artists that Led Zeppelin "stole" from most likely got many of their songs (or were at least influenced) by other artists, and mixed them up in their own way, just as Zeppelin did. I believe that Zeppelin is picked on so much because of how huge they got doing what other people had been doing for years. Say you saw some blues guy playing a gig in a bar in the '50's. Do you think he's gonna have a sign on his mic stand specifying where he got his influence for each of his songs, and how similar they are? No. I seriously doubt that Muddy Waters wrote every lick, riff, and chord progression that he recorded and made money from. He had plenty of original stuff, just as Zeppelin did, but I don't think that ANY of those guys who Zeppelin is accused of copying have a totally original catalog of music. And, I'm sure that if Muddy Waters were to get as big as Zep, he would have just as many people chasing him around wanting a wad cash.

That's why the word "Traditional" is used, and it should have been in Zeppelin's case.

[champion ruby]

I'm not saying you're wrong for a personal opinion...and I just wanted to point out that my favorite Zepp music is rarely (if ever) played on the radio or anywhere else. As crazy as it may seem, I'm a bigger fan of their acoustic work...and those gems lost on their later albums.

I agree with you, when I think of epic acoustic pieces Led Zeppelin and Roy Harper are the first artists that come to my mind. I'll also say that Zep 1 was the first album I started playing along to and an undeniable influence on my playing despite the opinion I have.

[Jazzydave]

I agree with you, when I think of epic acoustic pieces Led Zeppelin and Roy Harper are the first artists that come to my mind. I'll also say that Zep 1 was the first album I started playing along to and an undeniable influence on my playing despite the opinion I have.

:aok

[jimfog]

I never cease to be STUNNED by the pass that these proven thieves get from so many musicians......songwriters, even!!!........because they happen to love the band.

"They did it better" is not an excuse. "Others did the same thing" is not an excuse. "They rock...and I never heard of those other losers" is NOT an excuse. "Old blues guys ripped each other off, all the time" Oh yeah?? Show me where Willie Dixon stole his compostions. He wasn't some generic "old blues guy". He was a living, creating, working songwriter at the time........and had to sue their asses to get any satisfaction.

Plagiarism is plagiarism.

Trust me, I can see loving the band, despite their blatant rip-offs......but at least have the integrity to recognize it and call it for what it was. Some of you guys look silly trying make logical contortions to excuse your heroes. C'mon.......you're better than that!

[Neer]

I'm with you on this one, jimfog. And no, I don't think they did it better anyway, just louder and different, but not different enough.

But it is pretty much water under the bridge at this point.

[Dave2512]

Ok. You are right. Page is Satan's spawn. He should burn in eternal hell.

Feel better now? ;)

Look I'm not out to discredit Page or LZ, they did that all by themselves. I've already defended them in this very thread and I am a fan. Though I’m not as enthusiastic about the band as I once was.

My disappointment lies entirely with examples like DAC and a few others. I don't consider Trad Arranged by or vague examples of paying tribute to well worn stock riffs to be plagiarism. Not when LZ did it and not when any other band did it.

The complaint is I don't think its apples to apples when die hard LZ fans try to use those vague examples by other bands as justification for obvious examples of plagiarism like DAC. It’s not a loose appropriation. It uses all the main elements of the original.

There is no grey area with DAC.

[DWB1960]

Trust me, I can see loving the band, despite their blatant rip-offs......but at least have the integrity to recognize it and call it for what it was. Some of you guys look silly trying make logical contortions to excuse your heroes. C'mon.......you're better than that!

Nice try Jim.

[Jazzydave]

I never cease to be STUNNED by the pass that these proven thieves get from so many musicians......songwriters, even!!!........because they happen to love the band.

"They did it better" is not an excuse. "Others did the same thing" is not an excuse. "They rock...and I never heard of those other losers" is NOT an excuse. "Old blues guys ripped each other off, all the time" Oh yeah?? Show me where Willie Dixon stole his compostions. He wasn't some generic "old blues guy". He was a living, creating, working songwriter at the time........and had to sue their asses to get any satisfaction.

Plagiarism is plagiarism.

Trust me, I can see loving the band, despite their blatant rip-offs......but at least have the integrity to recognize it and call it for what it was. Some of you guys look silly trying make logical contortions to excuse your heroes. C'mon.......you're better than that!

I agree w/ you on many counts...but none of us were there back then. I've read many biographies and have seen countless documentaries on early blues music (and jazz, etc) and there is always talk about how they were all ripping each other off. There are rumors that Robert Johnson was a carbon copy of a few other not so well known bluesmen...where the lines were drawn, who knows?

Again, I'm not justifying their use of lyrics and riffs that were obviously lifted...but let's also keep in mind that Elvis's management forced quite a few writers to give the King songwriting and publishing credit on songs he didn't write. Heck, the Col. wouldn't even let him record a song unless the owner handed over the publishing!

There is a lot going on in the world that's never revealed...Nirvana wasn't the "birth of grunge," they were just among the first to be exploited to mass appeal. Those stories can go on and on...as will these discussions.

[DWB1960]

NdWPkgtaOTw

Love the sympathy between Jones and Page in this clip. Perfect example of why Zep was a great example of the whole being greater than the parts.

And to those bashing Zep as rip off artists (again), carry on. You are basically yelling at clouds at this point.


http://130269.webs.com/band_1977.jpg

[Dave2512]

Show me where Willie Dixon stole his compostions. He wasn't some generic "old blues guy". He was a living, creating, working songwriter at the time........and had to sue their asses to get any satisfaction.


Willie was not exempt from borrowing from others. Certainly not to the extreme of Dazed And Confused but several songs credited to him have origins in early songs. Willie is not the best example of originality in blues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoonful

Fair is fair and there were some unsavory characters in blues that get just as much of a free pass as LZ. The worst of the worst was "Rice" Miller aka. Sonny Boy Williamson. He not only stole songs he appropriated an earlier artists name and key elements of his style.

[DWB1960]

The worst of the worst was "Rice" Miller aka. Sonny Boy Williamson. He not only stole songs he appropriated an earlier artists name and key elements of his style.

Too bad he didn't make millions of dollars and sell millions of records. Maybe then this thread would have been about him.

nq1selXrQD8

[jimfog]

Too bad he didn't make millions of dollars and sell millions of records. Maybe then this thread would have been about him.


None of which absolves LZ.

What's the old saying? Oh yeah......

You Are Entitled To Your Own Opinions, You Are Not Entitled To Your Own Facts

The proven FACTS are........love them or hate them, Zeppelin, and especially Page, were serial plagiarists.

[phretbored]

Thank the Lord Allmighty that Led Zep did what they did!

Dude must be a huge Led Zep fan to inspire such a wonderful thing to happen.

[phretbored]

Jimmy Page should be behind bars....or an unknown pauper (or local yokel bar band guitarist...same difference!!), at least....for THIS rip-off, alone.

Disgraceful.

pTsvs-pAGDc

This version eats it.
It sounds boring.
But the idea is loaded with potential.

Led Zep's version sounds like epicness...actually it sound like ZEPICNESS!
They unleashed the full potential of the idea.

[phretbored]

Oig8z4HvBL8&feature=related




For a minute there I thought this was Oasis.

[Fastermouse]

I never cease to be STUNNED by the pass that these proven thieves get from so many musicians......songwriters, even!!!........because they happen to love the band.

"They did it better" is not an excuse. "Others did the same thing" is not an excuse. "They rock...and I never heard of those other losers" is NOT an excuse. "Old blues guys ripped each other off, all the time" Oh yeah?? Show me where Willie Dixon stole his compostions. He wasn't some generic "old blues guy". He was a living, creating, working songwriter at the time........and had to sue their asses to get any satisfaction.

Plagiarism is plagiarism.

Trust me, I can see loving the band, despite their blatant rip-offs......but at least have the integrity to recognize it and call it for what it was. Some of you guys look silly trying make logical contortions to excuse your heroes. C'mon.......you're better than that!
This is exactly how I feel. Love me some Zep, but that doesn't forgive their stealing. And it was stealing.

The Small Faces song is exactly the same.

[clarkydaz]

Thank the Lord Allmighty that Led Zep did what they did!

Dude must be a huge Led Zep fan to inspire such a wonderful thing to happen.

what happens when jimmy arrives at the gates?

thou shal not steal:Devil

thou shal not replace el34s with kt88s and run marshalls below 5 :Devil

[DWB1960]

The proven FACTS are........love them or hate them, Zeppelin, and especially Page, were serial plagiarists.

http://www.411mania.com/siteimages/grandpa_simpson_yelling_at_cloud_001_73054.jpg

[ivers]

If blatant plagiarism brings music forwards, then I'm all for it.

[FenderTL5]

..but, but, Zeppelin played it LOUDER. That makes it totally different.

[medrawt]

I think this is a weird thread, but by far the weirdest perspective to me seems to be "it's totally cool that they ripped someone else off because they MADE IT BETTER."

I think these threads sort of fail from a precision standpoint, because there's a lot of different things Zeppelin is "accused" of doing -

(1) playing traditional material that probably wasn't under copyright and putting "Page/Plant" on the credits.
(2) with varying degrees of specificity, copping some riff and lyrical ideas from blues songs that someone else had the songwriting credit for, and putting "Page/Plant" on the credits, but it's not always clear that the people they did this to weren't themselves really engaged in activity (1).
(3) Directly taking someone else's original composition and using it to build their own song (in the "Stairway" example I don't think much of it, in the "Dazed and Confused" example I think it's pretty obvious).

I feel differently about all three of these activities, and I think the hardest one to talk about is (2), because there's an awkward transition from a folk music ethic to a commercial music ethic. Defending (3), when it seems obvious, is bizarre to me. And I'm a huge fan, specifically, of the first five albums or so, and I love "Dazed and Confused" as a Zeppelin song. That doesn't mean Page didn't steal it. And, for goodness' sake, making it better doesn't justify it. If someone steals your guitar and then turns out to be a better player than you are, do you shrug and think "well, he's putting it to better use than I did, so I guess it's ok"?

[DWB1960]

Here’s how I see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do


*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Rock and Roll: Very loosely based on Good Golly Miss Molly
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs

[rob2001]

Here’s how I see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do


*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Rock and Roll: Very loosely based on Good Golly Miss Molly
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs


Thanks for this perspective. Take out the handful of lifted items and IMO, you still have one of the greatest rock bands ever. I'll bet there are other bands from that era with more lifted/borrowed/inspired by material than Zep.

[Rockinrob86]

here’s how i see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


good times bad times
babe i’m gonna leave you ***
you shook me ***
dazed and confused
your time is gonna come
black mountain side
communication breakdown
i can’t quit you babe ***
how many more times
whole lotta love
what is and what should never be
the lemon song
thank you
heartbreaker
living loving maid
ramble on
moby dick
bring it on home
immigrant song
friends
celebration day
since i’ve been loving you
out on the tiles
gallows pole ***
tangerine
that’s the way
bron-y-aur stomp
hats off to roy harper
black dog
rock and roll
the battle of evermore
stairway to heaven
misty mountain hop
four sticks
going to california
when the levee breaks ***
the song remians the same
the rain song
over the hills and far away
the crunge
dancing days
d’yer mak’er
no quarter
the ocean
custard pie
the rover
in my time of dying
houses of the holy
trampled underfoot
kashmir
in the light
bron-yr-aur
down by the seaside
ten years gone
night flight
the wanton song
boogie with stu ***
black country woman
sick again
achilles last stand
for your life
royal orleans
noboy’s fault but mine
candy store rock
hots on for nowhere
tea for one
in the evening
sound bound saurez
fool in the rain
hot dog
carouselambra
all my love
i’m gonna crawl
we’re gonna groove ***
poor tom
walter’s walk
ozone baby
darlene
bonzo’s montreux
wearing and tearing
hey hey what can i do


*** credit given to others on original recordings

dazed and confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
black mountain side: Should have been listed as traditional
whole lotta love: Some lyrics lifted.
lemon song: Some lyrics lifted
bring it on home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
rock and roll: Very loosely based on good golly miss molly
stairway to heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
nobody’s fault but mine: Should have been listed as traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs


1,000,000,000+

[Psychotronic]

Everyone assumes that it was Page who deliberately ripped others off. Has anyone considered the possibility that it was Peter Grant that might have been behind the underhanded copyright issues?

[enocaster]

Still everyone steals
A slave from africa hear European harmony and instruments and combines both ideas as a work song and teachs his fellow slaves the song

years latter Blind Willie so and so heard a lick played by a share cropper working 14 hour days on a farm.

Blind Willie takes that lick and mods it a bit. Travels around playing music a few days a week dressing in a smart suit, never toiling in the Sun drinking good wiskey and nailing a ton of ass.

Guy hears him takes that lick mods it buys a 52 goldtop brand new and calls himself little holwing big muddy wolf. Signs a contract has a bunch of hits buys a house in the nice part of town and gets a 57 caddy.

Some pasty ass english kid hears that lick on the radio mods it under the influence of Drugs and modern technology has a hit buys alister Crowley Books and several country estates ,does stuff thatwould get 30 years in the hole, buys several hundred guitars 2 or 3 ex wives each younger than the last, collects cars has a private jet and gets made a KBE ...........

David Coverdale n Bon Jovi then make billions after de souling the riff

it's called upwardmobility....so get that dead african a lawyer there are a lot of cats to sue

:roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll :roll

[Virtual Pariah]

Don't care.

For some people, LZ was the band that gave them their first taste of these songs. I can't see that as a bad thing at all.

[VintageKnob]

Somewhere back around 1976 my best friend (and bass player)s Mom gave him a collection of old blues songs she had got from a promoter at work (she worked in sales at KTVU in Oakland, CA)

When I heard Muddy's "You need love" I yelled at my friend - Zep's version is just like Bo Diddly on acid!

That got our attention, we wore out those albums, in the 10th grade I was the only kid in school who knew what Keef was doing on only rock&roll and I could play a back beat that killed. Via Zep's "rip offs" I got into traditional blues which taught me how to play real rock&roll at a very early age. At 18 I was covering may songs off Zep 1, our opening tunes where Rock & Roll into Celebration Day - done like the live version off "The Song Remains the Same" movie. You can believe we got the attention of older bands we opened for - we didn't screw around.

I'm 50 years old now and I still play daily and gig when I can, I've got to say, Zep has an ingrained thing in my brain. I saw them both days in Oakland at the "Day on the Greens". They still make me trip - naturally.

I love traditional blues, my favorite, but my intro to it was the Zep "rip off's".

So be it - it's history - dig it.


- D

[Chrome Dinette]

Here’s how I see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do


*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Rock and Roll: Very loosely based on Good Golly Miss Molly
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs

That's a pretty good list, but doesn't The Lemon Song also bite the licks from Killing Floor(Howlin Wolf version) pretty hard?

[Bassomatic]

Blatant? Page copped the 10 note descending riff. The rest of Zep's arraignment and production is nothing like Holme's version.

Freudian slip?:D

[DWB1960]

That's a pretty good list, but doesn't The Lemon Song also bite the licks from Killing Floor(Howlin Wolf version) pretty hard?

Well, they both have a walking bass 12 bar blues progression but that same progression has been used in dozens if not hundreds of songs.

[SGNick]

Well, they both have a walking bass 12 bar blues progression but that same progression has been used in dozens if not hundreds of songs.

Even more glaringly obvious take from Killing Floor (besides the lyrics) is each of Page's guitar solo starting off with 12 bars of the exact same solo as the Howlin' Wolf version.

Not blaming him there, that's one of the funnest solos ever to play.

[DWB1960]

Even more glaringly obvious take from Killing Floor (besides the lyrics) is each of Page's guitar solo starting off with 12 bars of the exact same solo as the Howlin' Wolf version.

Ya, that was pretty common with the English "blues" guys of that era to quote partial solos. Heck, Clapton would ape entire Albert King solos just about note for note!

Check out the solos in Strange Brew vs. Crosscut Saw by King.

[zep41]

Here’s how I see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do
*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Rock and Roll: Very loosely based on Good Golly Miss Molly
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs

..........and there you have it folks. Here is the body of work, and here is what people are so "up in arms about." Have your own opinion either way, but this is how it is. I would even take out "Rock and Roll" -- the intro is similar to Little Richards "Keep a Knocking" but the rest of the song follows what is practically a 12 bar standard.

I personally will never understand the Whole Lotta Love argument for Willie Dixon. I dont see as much similarity as other folks see between the two as far as music and words and melody go. Not enough to give Dixon a songwriting credit. Sure, Zep's WLL borrows a breif phrase from Dixon ("way down inside you need love"), but that is it. I don't think that phrase makes up for the majority of what the song is all about -- riff, drum beat, middle section, chorus/refrain, and solo. IMO, the court got it wrong. Dixon --- while his music provided some background for Whole Lotta Love, his part is not significant enough to require a writing credit. IMO.

Steve Marriott and his verison with the Small Faces -- thats another story and I dont know how that would work because that is Steve's take on the Willie Dixon song that WAS credited, then Plant's phrasing was like Steve's, so........I dont know.

Yea that Jimmy Page, what a horrible guy. A HANDFUL of songs where mostly the LYRICS bear some resemblence to their "originally based" blues song.

If Zeppelin deserves to be crucified for this little bit compared to their body of work ----if it was so easy to take simple 30 year old 12 bar blues song and transform it into a money making machine / album --- why isn't everyone doing it? Why arent most bands following suit and finding these gems from people like Joe McCoy/Memphis Minnie's and transforming it like Zep did? (which was credited on the fourth album by the way)

[amc]

put the blame on the person who was handling led zeppelin's business affairs during
the production of all of the noted material.

PETER GRANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

does anyone here really believe that jimmy page,or any other lz bandmates, had anything to do with the business end of led zeppelin, including filing for copyrights and virtually anything else on the business side of lz.

songwriting credits should always be given where credit is due and royalties should be paid without involving lawsuits and court proceedings.

imho, peter grant was a criminal and should bear the brunt of the blame.

just my 2 cents..........................

btw: led zeppelin's first album definitely changed my life when it was released.

[chrisr777]

Donnie, that list is not quite complete. There are the post Zep albums to think of. Also, How Many More Times should be included.

I also agree with the fact that it was Peter Grant and the record company that were responsible for the credits. Maybe the band could have protested the situation, but they didn't create it.


And I don't know why I'm letting myself get sucked into this again.



:bonk

[tnt365]

Anybody care that white people stole jazz and blues from black people?


I call it sharing, sharing is caring, which is what music is all about. History will remember LZ for what they were: Some of the BEST musicians of all time.

[DWB1960]

Donnie, that list is not quite complete. There are the post Zep albums to think of. Also, How Many More Times should be included.

How Many More Times is there. Which post Zep albums are you referring to??

[chrisr777]

How Many More Times is there. Which post Zep albums are you referring to??

There, but not marked as having "borrowed" material. It includes the Hunter.

Coda, BBC Sessions, etc.

[clarkydaz]

i think this is the worst of the bunch. can anyone defend this?

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DqmcckH4fqg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DWB1960]

List Updated: (Seems that Plant lifting lyrics is the biggest issue)


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do


*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
How Many More Times: Some lyrics lifted.
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Since I've Been Loving You: Some lyrics lifted
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
5 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted

[fakeox]

There you have it! LZ is innocent.

[DamianP]

Here’s how I see it. Not as bad and some would make it out to be when looked at in an overall manner.


Good Times Bad Times
Babe I’m Gonna Leave You ***
You Shook Me ***
Dazed and Confused
Your Time is Gonna Come
Black Mountain Side
Communication Breakdown
I Can’t Quit You Babe ***
How Many More Times
Whole Lotta Love
What is and What Should Never Be
The Lemon Song
Thank You
Heartbreaker
Living Loving Maid
Ramble On
Moby Dick
Bring it on Home
Immigrant Song
Friends
Celebration Day
Since I’ve Been Loving You
Out on the Tiles
Gallows Pole ***
Tangerine
That’s the Way
Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Hats Off to Roy Harper
Black Dog
Rock and Roll
The Battle of Evermore
Stairway to Heaven
Misty Mountain Hop
Four Sticks
Going to California
When the Levee Breaks ***
The Song Remians the Same
The Rain Song
Over the Hills and Far Away
The Crunge
Dancing Days
D’Yer Mak’er
No Quarter
The Ocean
Custard Pie
The Rover
In My Time of Dying
Houses of the Holy
Trampled Underfoot
Kashmir
In the Light
Bron-Yr-Aur
Down by the Seaside
Ten Years Gone
Night Flight
The Wanton Song
Boogie With Stu ***
Black Country Woman
Sick Again
Achilles Last Stand
For Your Life
Royal Orleans
Noboy’s Fault But Mine
Candy Store Rock
Hots On for Nowhere
Tea For One
In the Evening
Sound Bound Saurez
Fool in the Rain
Hot Dog
Carouselambra
All My Love
I’m Gonna Crawl
We’re Gonna Groove ***
Poor Tom
Walter’s Walk
Ozone Baby
Darlene
Bonzo’s Montreux
Wearing and Tearing
Hey Hey What Can I Do


*** Credit given to others on original recordings

Dazed and Confused: Descending riff and lyrical cadence lifted.
Black Mountain Side: Should have been listed as Traditional
Whole Lotta Love: Some lyrics lifted.
Lemon Song: Some lyrics lifted
Bring it on Home: Intro and outro lyrics lifted. Middle section completely original
Rock and Roll: Very loosely based on Good Golly Miss Molly
Stairway to Heaven: 5 note descending intro riff lifted
Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Should have been listed as Traditional

7 – number of songs where credit is given to others
2 – number of songs that should have been listed as Traditional
2 – number of songs where riffs were lifted
3 – number of songs where lyrics were lifted
1 – number of songs loosely based on other songs

Like a man who made love to hundreds of women but only raped a few.

[zep41]

i think this is the worst of the bunch. can anyone defend this?

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DqmcckH4fqg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You are suggesting that there is something to defend because this song and the Zep song Since I've Been Loving You start off talking about working long hours in the day and how its getting to be a drag. And the wording/phrasing is similar.

I dont understand what you think needs to be defended --- Plant sings the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You in similar fashion to the first 10 seconds of lyric in the song "Never" by Moby Grape. So, it is what it is. In no way is this phrase a major characteristic of EITHER of the songs melody or overall theme.

Yea - Plant most likely got the idea to sing the first 2 lines of Since I've Been from this Moby Grape song. And....that's it. You think that deserves a song writing credit? Seriously? Since I've Been loving you is a lot longer than 10 seconds of lyric.

[thedroid]

I like LZ. I don't think they're either evil thieves or the greatest band ever, blah, blah.

A chord progression is not copyrighted. There are too few of them, and they've all be used over and over. It is simply harmony. Like a drum beat, it belongs to anyone who comes up with it or wants to borrow it.

A guitar riff may have some protection to the extent that it is part of the recognizable tune or melody.

The lead melody is the song, from a musical standpoint, and there the law will allow for some similarity to occur by chance, but you're treading on thin ice.

The lyrics have the strongest copyright. There are many thousands of words and millions of ways to string them together. Cliches are used over and over, but more than a line or two the same and it's infringement.

Traditional compositions or ones that have fallen out of copyright protection are fair game. Now, among fellow musicians, I think it's considered uncool to lift entirely someone's arrangement of a traditional tune. And trying to collect songwriting royalties on a tune you didn't write probably is illegal.

[Jazzydave]

Anybody care that white people stole jazz and blues from black people?


I call it sharing, sharing is caring, which is what music is all about. History will remember LZ for what they were: Some of the BEST musicians of all time.

This isn't a knock towards you, just a thought...I find it so interesting that people think that the "blues" just popped out of nowhere from people working out in the fields...when in fact, it was a fusion that developed from folk music coming from different cultures...much of which that had been around for 100s of years (if not longer). Go listen to some of the early folk music...much of which is about hard times, despair, bucking the system. Folk musicians in western Europe were categorized as the lowest class of people. I'm sure that was influenced by their "gypsy" type nature and them expressing their feelings of suppression.

I don't want to get into a black/white thing bc I think that's ridiculous...even the great Muddy Waters didn't discriminate against Johnny Winters and you know that man could have had just about anyone he wanted up there on stage with him.

Let's just all keep music at the most basic level - a way of expression that brings us together like nothing else. :phones

[clarkydaz]

You are suggesting that there is something to defend because this song and the Zep song Since I've Been Loving You start off talking about working long hours in the day and how its getting to be a drag. And the wording/phrasing is similar.

I dont understand what you think needs to be defended --- Plant sings the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You in similar fashion to the first 10 seconds of lyric in the song "Never" by Moby Grape. So, it is what it is. In no way is this phrase a major characteristic of EITHER of the songs melody or overall theme.

Yea - Plant most likely got the idea to sing the first 2 lines of Since I've Been from this Moby Grape song. And....that's it. You think that deserves a song writing credit? Seriously? Since I've Been loving you is a lot longer than 10 seconds of lyric.

his wording/phrasing are similar? thats putting it 'mildly'. The opening 30 seconds of that clip is the theme both lyrically and musically to the verse of SIBLY. to his credit Plant did change 7 and 11 around :spit

[jimfog]

Ooops.....another "coincidence".

TvtabNAb_wE

“Moby Dick” – a fan favorite during Led Zeppelin concerts, the guitar riff is eerily similar to (or, a nearly note-for-note ripoff of) a riff which appears on Bobby Parker’s 1961 single, “Watch Your Step”. Jimmy Page was an admitted fan of Parker’s, at one point even attempting to sign him to Led Zeppelin’s Swan Song Records label.

Worth a read.......

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Proven thievery......over and over again.

But it's cool......Zep ROCKED, dude!! :bow

[Jazzydave]

Ooops.....another "coincidence".

TvtabNAb_wE

“Moby Dick” – a fan favorite during Led Zeppelin concerts, the guitar riff is eerily similar to (or, a nearly note-for-note ripoff of) a riff which appears on Bobby Parker’s 1961 single, “Watch Your Step”. Jimmy Page was an admitted fan of Parker’s, at one point even attempting to sign him to Led Zeppelin’s Swan Song Records label.

Worth a read.......

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Proven thievery......over and over again.

But it's cool......Zep ROCKED, dude!! :bow

I'm going to toy with these ideas a little...now there are specific riffs to songs that were completely original...but what about the basic blues shuffles? How about those Chuck Berry licks (that were supposedly ripped from his piano player) and those early country and western boogie types (similar to Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman)?

I've heard that same "Moby Dick" lick in many songs over the years and am willing to bet you have to. We just didn't think about it much bc it wasn't blaring at us through a Les Paul and a cranked Marshall...

[rob2001]

Ooops.....another "coincidence".

TvtabNAb_wE

“Moby Dick” – a fan favorite during Led Zeppelin concerts, the guitar riff is eerily similar to (or, a nearly note-for-note ripoff of) a riff which appears on Bobby Parker’s 1961 single, “Watch Your Step”. Jimmy Page was an admitted fan of Parker’s, at one point even attempting to sign him to Led Zeppelin’s Swan Song Records label.

Worth a read.......

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Proven thievery......over and over again.

But it's cool......Zep ROCKED, dude!! :bow


Wait....are you trying to say Page had influences?? OMG!!

[DWB1960]

Proven thievery......over and over again.

So what's your thoughts on Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton, George Harrison, and others who have been proven to have "stolen" material from others?

[korby]

Paul Simon .

[Jazzydave]

We're all thieves...it's just how we present what we stole that matters...

[DWB1960]

We're all thieves...it's just how we present what we stole that matters...

Or how rich, famous, and ENVIED by others we become.... ;)

[2HBStrat]

...I also agree with the fact that it was Peter Grant and the record company that were responsible for the credits. Maybe the band could have protested the situation, but they didn't create it...

If I remember correctly, the ORIGINAL LP's did not credit anyone but LZ. I think later post-lawsuit versions included different credits, but I could be wrong.

Anybody care that white people stole jazz and blues from black people?....

I don't think you can copyright a genre, which means that someone cannot steal a genre. Words and melody, yes...

[DWB1960]

If I remember correctly, the ORIGINAL LP's did not credit anyone but LZ. I think later post-lawsuit versions included different credits, but I could be wrong.

Dixon was credited on the original release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin_%28album%29#Composition

[StompBoxBlues]

I find it so interesting that people think that the "blues" just popped out of nowhere from people working out in the fields...when in fact, it was a fusion that developed from folk music coming from different cultures...much of which that had been around for 100s of years (if not longer). Go listen to some of the early folk music...much of which is about hard times, despair, bucking the system. Folk musicians in western Europe were categorized as the lowest class of people. I'm sure that was influenced by their "gypsy" type nature and them expressing their feelings of suppression.

:phones

Sorry, but from all I know of and have read on the origin of the blues, that is not the case. It isn't true. Dixiland Jazz, feild hollers, roots from African "folk music" (roots music, whatever you want to call it), W.C. Handy, and SOME other cultures also had an effect, but it most closely still is from the african, and blue note dixieland music. Some have mentioned some scottish influence also, and later of course, with the advent of radio it isn't like they weren't hearing other music and absorbing.

It still was developed by blacks, a part of black culture, and unique to them in its development.

[Dave2512]

Ooops.....another "coincidence".

TvtabNAb_wE

“Moby Dick” – a fan favorite during Led Zeppelin concerts, the guitar riff is eerily similar to (or, a nearly note-for-note ripoff of) a riff which appears on Bobby Parker’s 1961 single, “Watch Your Step”. Jimmy Page was an admitted fan of Parker’s, at one point even attempting to sign him to Led Zeppelin’s Swan Song Records label.

Worth a read.......

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Proven thievery......over and over again.

But it's cool......Zep ROCKED, dude!! :bow

Examples like this is where I part ways with the dissention. I've heard the case trying to be made for this connection and it's a HUGE stretch. Especially since that was the same beat and funky little guitar thing for the vast majority of 60's movie and TV soundtracks.

It's these examples that make hardcore Zep fans defensive. It's one thing when there is a clear example like Dazed And Confused but this tries to connect dots that aren't there. If people simply pointed out the obvious examples and expressed distaste the LZ fans wouldn't react they way they do to these conversations.

[jimfog]

Examples like this is where I part ways with the dissention. I've heard the case trying to be made for this connection and it's a HUGE stretch. Especially since that was the same beat and funky little guitar thing for the vast majority of 60's movie and TV soundtracks.

It's these examples that make hardcore Zep fans defensive. It's one thing when there is a clear example like Dazed And Confused but this tries to connect dots that aren't there. If people simply pointed out the obvious examples and expressed distaste the LZ fans wouldn't react they way they do to these conversations.

Sorry......completely disagree. It's examples like this....over and over and over and over.......that prove the fact that Page, in particular, was a serial and unrepentant thief. If it was "just" DAC or one or two other "close" songs, you could shrug your shoulders and say "mistake.....it happens". But if you have any sense and knowledge of the history and range of music that's even a little deeper than "ROCK, dude!!!", his repeated rip-offs are so glaringly obvious it's impossible not to be disgusted.

What gets me are the "everybody did it back then" excuses. False. Some did, but most of Page's contemporaries, ala Cream/EC, Beck Group, Jimi, even the Stones (who had their own issues), made an effort to credit, promote and PAY the guys they covered. THAT was the norm, not trying to take every last $$ out of the pockets of your supposed heroes. Yeah, you can find an example here or there where other bands blew it........but not the pattern of out and out plagiarism that is Page's history.

I get it. It's hard to think ill of your idols. But, even as much as I rip Page for this BS, I can still admit he was a great riff writer and made terrific SOUNDING albums. And they had one of the best rock rhythm sections of all time.

Eventually LZ grew into their own, as a powerhouse........but's it's a legacy built on lots of stealing, unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm out.......said my peace. No one's gonna change their mind. Plus, some of these responses are getting heated and bordering on personal shots. No reason for that nonsense.

[roadfilm]

Here's an interesting excerpt from a 1990 interview with Page from Musician magazine.

Musician: I understand "Dazed & Confused" was originally a song by Jake Holmes. Is that true?
Page: [Sourly] I don't know. I don't know. [Inhaling] I don't know about all that.

Musician: Do you remember the process of writing that song?

Page: Well, I did that with the Yardbirds originally... The Yardbirds were such a good band for a guitarist to play in that I came up with a lot of riffs and ideas out of that, and I employed quite a lot of those in the early Zeppelin stuff.

Musician: But Jake Holmes, a successful jingle writer in New York, claims on his 1967 record that he wrote the original song.

Page: Hmm. Well, I don't know. I don't know about that. I'd rather not get into it because I don't know all the circumstances. What's he got, The riff or whatever? Because Robert wrote some of the lyrics for that on the album. But he was only listening to... we extended it from the one that we were playing with the Yardbirds.

Musician: Did you bring it into the Yardbirds?

Page: No, I think we played it 'round a sort of melody line or something that Keith [Relf] had. So I don't know. I haven't heard Jake Holmes so I don't know what it's all about anyway. Usually my riffs are pretty damn original. [laughs] What can I say?

[jimfog]

Musician: Did you bring it into the Yardbirds?

Page: No, I think we played it 'round a sort of melody line or something that Keith [Relf] had. So I don't know. I haven't heard Jake Holmes so I don't know what it's all about anyway. Usually my riffs are pretty damn original. [laughs] What can I say?


Ok.......one last point, THEN I'm out (heh.).

Even taking Page at his word, and by his OWN admission, above, "Dazed and Confused" was a rip-off. I don't see Relf or any other Yardbirds credited on LZ1, do you?

See? Patterns of deception.

[DWB1960]

Page, in particular, was a serial and unrepentant thief. His repeated rip-offs are so glaringly obvious it's impossible not to be disgusted.

Is that why Zep gave credit to the original writers on more songs than they are accused of ripping off?

Read my list again. If anyone's the outright thief it's Plant for nicking so many lyrics word for word.

And Dave is 100% correct about Watch Your Step. The idea of playing a repeating riff in the I-IV-V-IV progression is as old as rock and roll itself. Watch a few Annette Funicello / Frankie Avalon beach movies and you'll hear that stuff all over the soundtracks.

You may want to try playing the Watch Your Step riff side by side with the Moby Dick riff again. Although in the same vein, they are actually quite different.

I'm not going to argue DAC or the Stairway intro, or the fact that Zep should have credited a couple of their songs as traditional instead of putting their names on them, but Watch Your Step is grasping at straws.

(Oh, and Bruins 2, Flyers 0 at the end of the 1st)

[roadfilm]

Ok.......one last point, THEN I'm out (heh.).

Even taking Page at his word, and by his OWN admission, above, "Dazed and Confused" was a rip-off. I don't see Relf or any other Yardbirds credited on LZ1, do you?

See? Patterns of deception.

I didn't think that excerpt helped Page's case, that's why I posted it. It's clear he doesn't want to talk about it and saying he hadn't heard of Jake Holmes is clearly untrue. Holmes opened for the Yardbirds while Page was in the band. Do a Google search for Zep's "Tangerine". Page stole that one from Relf. I always thought well at least Page wrote "Tangerine" I was heartbroken when I found out he stole that one too.

[Jazzydave]

Sorry, but from all I know of and have read on the origin of the blues, that is not the case. It isn't true. Dixiland Jazz, feild hollers, roots from African "folk music" (roots music, whatever you want to call it), W.C. Handy, and SOME other cultures also had an effect, but it most closely still is from the african, and blue note dixieland music. Some have mentioned some scottish influence also, and later of course, with the advent of radio it isn't like they weren't hearing other music and absorbing.

It still was developed by blacks, a part of black culture, and unique to them in its development.

It's funny to me that you disagreed and then said nearly the same thing I did...just with lesser emphasis. I'm not saying that they stole it directly from anyone or any one style. They were definitely exposed to other styles of music, primarily folk and gospel. You are correct in that radio wasn't as alive then, but you also have to consider that even many of the poorer homes had a piano and music was a heavy past time in those days after long hours. Have you never studied the bios of the blues greats? B.B. King? He talks a lot about early spiritual music...those were interpretations of gospel songs that had been around for years. He's also mentioned folk music and other influences. He's not the only one...

I just wrote a paper on B.B. King actually for an anthropology course I'm taking...mainly centered around other articles I'd found written by anthropologists studying this very subject...the intermingling of influences that developed into "American Music," starting with the blues.

Hey, I'm not saying they didn't create a revolution that's still evolving to this day...all I'm saying is that it didn't come about by a puff of smoke somewhere at the crossroads...or did it?

:BluesBros

[fakeox]

One thing is for sure, no great band has ever been bashed so relentlessly :dunnofor one reason or another since day 1. Especially from the music critics.

[DWB1960]

Do a Google search for Zep's "Tangerine". Page stole that one from Relf.

Oh please. Relf may have penned some of the lyrics of the original Yardbirds tune (very few of which found their way onto Tangerine) but Page wrote the music. Tangerine has Page's stamp all over it. As does the original that he wrote while in the Yardbirds - Knowing that I'm Losing You.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet, especially when it comes to Zep. The band that a lot of folks love to hate and will fan the smallest faint sparks into bonfires to back up their hate.

[defcrew]

meh...never liked LZ much anyway.

[deltaboy]

Can we start comparing blues songs from artist to artist through the years? Or no?

[circusinthesky]

My opinion....I just don't care. I can't listen to more than two minutes of most of the blues music which influenced Zep anyway. I am thankful that Page and Co. took what they did, added a hell of a lot of energy, and brought it on home. The blues artists who recorded a lot of those tunes originally? That's too bad they didn't get a little piece of the pie. There was certainly enough to go around. But in the end, I don't care. No excuses. No justifications. No finger pointing. I just don't care.

[arthur rotfeld]

You Shook Me, I Can't Quit You Babe, and Babe I'm Gonna Leave You were all credited to others on Led Zeppelin I. Even on the original vinyl album.

Yes!

[phretbored]

Allrighty folks!
We're gonna break for a brief intermission while we change reels.
Please enjoy an ice cold beverage and some snacks.
And relax to some nice music during the break...

eKtfjsonPFE

[bab]

My humble opinion for the past ten years or so has been that Page was a great arranger and a master producer. Songs are melody and lyrics. I assume Plant "wrote" the lyrics and the melody. Page arranged the songs (riffs, chord progressions, solos, etc) and produced the recordings.

IMHO, LZ stole the songs i.e. melody and lyrics of many songs. Arrangements and production are what makes LZ versions so much better than the originals. I'd much rather listen to LZ version of Dazed than Jake Holmes, the arrangement, production, performance are way superior; however, it is clear that they used the song without crediting the author. The melody and lyrics are virtually
identical.

George Harrison lost an infringement case where the melodic and lyrical similarities were much less similar.

Bad form to not give credit to the composers, but I'm sure that had not a little to do the the old greenback.

Also, infringement isn't "stealing". The owner of the song has to enforce their rights. For poor people this can be difficult to do ...

[colin617]

It amazes me how people can get so worked up over an issue in which they have absolutely nothing at stake.

I honestly don't care if Zeppelin plagiarized or not.

[shg]

Take a few minutes out to watch this doco:

http://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

[arthur rotfeld]

Regarding using traditional pieces and getting a copyright as an original work.....it happens from time to time. Do it if you can! Great money maker!

Another example: "Day-O" Irving Burgie.


It's unfortunate that Page/Plant either infringed on ©'s or took items from a few other songs. It's also unfortunate that some here are allowing a tiny part of LZ's work to taint the vast scope of otherwise highly original work--much of which is some of the most strikingly distinctive music of the decade, alongside Yes, Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, and others.

[zep41]

Ooops.....another "coincidence".

TvtabNAb_wE

“Moby Dick” – a fan favorite during Led Zeppelin concerts, the guitar riff is eerily similar to (or, a nearly note-for-note ripoff of) a riff which appears on Bobby Parker’s 1961 single, “Watch Your Step”. Jimmy Page was an admitted fan of Parker’s, at one point even attempting to sign him to Led Zeppelin’s Swan Song Records label.

Worth a read.......

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Proven thievery......over and over again.

But it's cool......Zep ROCKED, dude!! :bow

...annnnnnnd this is where the discussion gets ridiculous! So anyone who does a 3 note pull off on the guitar stole the entire lick from who----the first person ever to do a three note pull off?

This idea has been recycled and re used about one hundred times in rock music since the days of Chuck Berry.

If people want to have a discussion about why Page and whomever else involved didn't credit Jake Holmes for the Dazed and Confused track -- then I say why not have that discussion? Its valid to talk about and clearly Zep/Yardbirds borrowed heavily from Holmes and should have given him credit.

All the other stuff is just BS. Name one sucessful rock band and we can do that EXACT same thing -- pinpointing where this came from, how they got this idea, how this lyrical phrase was used in a previous song. It just happens with Zeppelin so much because they were (and still are) a money making machine soley due to their music and albums. They are considered the best of the best, and people are kind of uncomfortable with that if they dont like the music to begin with.

Like I always say -- if its such a no brainer, if its so easy -- why aren't there a million bands finding simple, obsure, unknown stuff from decades ago and tunring it into a masterpiece?

Furthermore, why doesnt anyone talk about the songs that were properly credited on the albums from the beginning? Like You Shook Me, I Cant Quit You, When the Levee Breaks, Boogie with Stu, etc? So Page and Co. had a mysterious plan to credit some tracks but not others just to be cute? Is it possible that they maybe just thought the "others" were simply revealing thier influences and nothing more? That the body of music WAS their creation?

I am in NO WAY shape or form comparing my band to Zeppelin or even saying we are that good -- but my group has about 21 what we would consider to be original songs, and I have written most of the music and lyrics for them. Pick any one song and I can tell you where I got the idea for that riff, guitar lick, vocal phrasing, lyric, etc. It wasn't created out of thin air. Its a mix of ideas and influences I have been exposed to.

My point is I'm sure you can do that with anyone who wrote a song -- especially blues or rock or any combination of the two. The music and ideas are so intertwined its ridiculous.

Most likely Jimmy Page heard this guy play many times -- he has mentioned him as an influence. Chances are Jimmy liked this video and it gave him ideas and influenced his acoustic playing. at 1:03, he liked what he heard so much (which is a typical classical progression) that he built off of it and wrote an acoustic piece, that turned into Stairway to Heaven. Is that so bad to do that? Did Davey Graham have anything to do with Stairway? Or did he just give the composer a tiny bit of a spark to build off of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWeejHJxGjs

[deltaboy]

why have we not discussed blues artist from the 30's to now? is it b/c there not popular? how it that different?

[deltaboy]

the english language we use day-to-day from the beginning of our lives is an ever occurring "remix" that slowly evolves over time.

how far do we take this?

Take a few minutes out to watch this doco:

http://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

[OldSchool]

Can't say I care too much. Good artists borrow, great ones steal. Zeppelin are still hugely influential to me. Willie Dixon and Taurus, not so much.


THIS. http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/icons/icon14.gif

[SilentRadio]

It is really funny that folks blaming a band for not giving credits, are sharing youtube links in the same post...

[indravayu]

It is really funny that folks blaming a band for not giving credits, are sharing youtube links in the same post...

Haha - good point! I hope all of you posting/watching those clips are mailing a few cents to the artists to make up for their lost royalties!

[GA20T]

It is really funny that folks blaming a band for not giving credits, are sharing youtube links in the same post...

I gather it's not so much about corporate lobby groups & lawyers, but rather originality, ethics & character.

[notnac]

I think the genre of music allows reinterpretations. This is also just one facet of what Led Zeppelin does. They'll hold up fine in the history books.

[DGDGBD]

I dunno, the vast majority of rock n roll songs are borrowed in one way or another from previous artists/songs even if just a singing style, guitar riff or bass line. Anyway, most of my favorite LZ tunes were not plagiarized AFAIK - Misty Mountain Hop, OTHAFA, Good Times Bad Times, HOTH, 10 years gone, Immigrant Song, Hot Dog...etc.