Do you lean your amp back? [Archive]

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tennisplayer

05-07-2011, 02:48 PM

mesa/kramer

05-07-2011, 02:57 PM

Flyin' Brian

05-07-2011, 03:14 PM

Yep. You get a much better idea of what's coming out at the audience.

Mr Tickle

05-07-2011, 03:16 PM

you lose bass the less your amp is touching the floor, thus when leaning back you don't get much bass if at all. there's a technical term for it but it escapes me at the moment.

jlagrassa

05-07-2011, 03:19 PM

Your just hearing what's always there just a lot better with the amp back, I have an ampwedge that allows you to place it back a little or at a descent angle but not as much as that stand back.
I don't like the amp pointed at my head either but you should EQ it so its not so bright, I use a 1x12 extension cab now with my combo so the amp is not pointed at my head but can hear and EQ it better!

SonicBlue61

05-07-2011, 03:22 PM

Nope, because I don't want to pummel my ears.

But I play as loud as I can get away with.

SonicBlue61

05-07-2011, 03:25 PM

...there's a technical term for it but it escapes me at the moment.

I think it's "sympathetic vibration." Same effect as when you play a music box in the air and then hear it gets louder if placed on a wood table.

esoteric pete

05-07-2011, 03:26 PM

its called "attenuated bass"....

MartinCliffe

05-07-2011, 03:28 PM

The term you're looking for is "coupling".

I have my cabs angled back slightly, but not so much that they're taking my head off. The front's probably a couple of inches at most above the ground.

SonicBlue61

05-07-2011, 03:35 PM

The term you're looking for is "coupling".

Isn't "sympathetic vibration" a form of "coupling"? :dunno

MartinCliffe

05-07-2011, 04:39 PM

Isn't "sympathetic vibration" a form of "coupling"? :dunno

Yes, it is. But coupling is the word most commonly used to describe the effect of having a guitar amp on the floor vs on a stand etc.

Jef Bardsley

05-07-2011, 04:43 PM

Isn't "sympathetic vibration" a form of "coupling"? :dunno
Yes, in the sense that something that has a similar resonant frequency (like a wooden floor) will "couple" with the sound waves from the amp and vibrate "sympathetically".

There are really two effects here, and that's one of them.

The other, which might also be termed "coupling", is the bass boost you get from having the amp in "half space". That is, because the amp's on the floor, the bass waves can only radiate "up" - the bass will form a hemispherical wavefront, as opposed to a the spherical wavefront you'd get if the amp was off the floor. (you get even more bass in "quarter space" - i.e., a corner of the room)

Since bass waves are over 5 feet long (arbitrarily defining "bass" as notes lower than 225Hz) you have to get the amp up pretty high to get a real sphere, but any distance interferes with the reinforcement.

Tipping the amp back doesn't really interfere that much with the shape of the wave, nor will it reduce floor vibrations to a great degree. But it will change the sound by letting you hear more mids and highs, so close up you'll think there's a reduction in bass. Well, relatively speaking, there is. ;) You wouldn't hear much difference if you were outside the room, however.

FenderBigot

05-07-2011, 04:43 PM

Alton

05-07-2011, 05:29 PM

There is a huge difference in tone when you lean your amp back. I have one of those little amp lean back straps. It must be twice as bright when leaned back thus the eq has to be totally changed. Curious if you lean your amp back a bit.

Depends on a number of other factors.

First and foremost is if you lean your amp back the speakers will pointed at your ears instead of your knees. If you are a cricket this is bad because crickets hear with their knees. If you're a human this is good because humans hear with their ears.

Once you get your species thing sorted out then comes the type/shape/configuration of your amp/speaker cabinet. First, are you playing through a haldstack or a combo?

If a halfstack is your speaker cabinet a 1x12? 2x12? 4x12? 6x12? 8x12? 8x10?

Is it closed back cabinet? An open back cabinet? A ported cabinet?

If it's a 2x10" or 2x12" are the speakers vertically oriented? Horizontally oriented? Are the speakers offset at 30* or 45*? Does the cabinet have a vertically oriented baffle or a slant baffle?

Are you playing through a combo amp? Is it a 1x12" or 2x1q2" Is it some other type of speaker and configuration? Is it an open back combo? A closed back combo?

Once you get your amp & speaker situation sorted out the next consideration is the physical space the amp is played in. Is the amp have it's back up against a wall? Is it more than 6" from the wall? Do you put it on your drummer's head? (trick question! I did NOT ask if you WANTED to put it on his head). Is it facing the audience? Is it off to your side aimed at the drummer? In other words, where is your amp in relation to your ears?

I will assume that you have a bass tone control on your amp. Any gain or loss in bass response can be compensated for by the use of this control. This also applies to the mid, treble and presence controls on the amp assuming your amp has these controls.

It is a little known secret that bass is NOT directional. It tends to be more omnidirectional up to about generally around 100 Hz. As the frequency rises the sound becomes more directional. By the time you're hitting an open A on your fifth string the sound is definitely focusing in a forward direction. the higher up the scale you go the more forward focused the sound becomes. When using 2 or more speakers in your cabinet(s) you will discover a greater level of focus at lower frequencies. The coupling effect will also be more pronounced.

To avoid confusion it is called the coupling effect. It is NOT a sympathetic vibration. A sympathetic vibration is any frequency induced by another. this induced frequency may be the original frequency but more often than not it is a harmonic frequency which is being induced. Coupling is the same frequency and is achieved typically by a near proximity reflection. typically these come from a wall directly behind the speaker (cabinet) or more often the floor directly under and in front of the speaker (cabinet). When in phase the direct signal and the reflected signal reinforce one another and amplify that or those frequencies. It's almost like having double the speakers in the low frequency range. Tilting the combo amp or speaker cabinet back minimizes this coupling effect giving the player/listener a truer representation of the bass frequencies being reproduced by the speaker.

This is hard for most guitar players to hear but your audience is NOT hearing your guitar the way you hear your guitar IF your amp is standing vertically. You are hearing your amp off axis which minimizes the high and mid frequencies in your ears and emphasizing the low mids and bass frequencies. Too often what sounds good to the guitar player with his amp set up like this sounds "bright" and "ice-picky" to the audience. Moreover, the guitarist is often way too loud.

When the guitar player tilts his amp back so he can hear it he will inevitibly adjust his tone. He may or may not be able to turn up louder. this depends on the hearing of the guitar player more than anything. The people who benefit the most from this are the audience members. they can actually hear and enjoy the sound of the guitar rather than getting their heads cut off by the deafening volume. I've also noticed a lot less grief from the sound person. This is really good because he may actually get the guitar into the mix out front. Further work is needed in monitoring but he at least has a better chance of doing that well also.

For purposes of recording mic placement is entirely up to the engineer. If he/she has good chops they will find the sweet spot quickly.

Once you find your tone and gain/volume levels when your amp is tilted back then when have to have your amp upright (no PA or not enough PA) then turn your bass down and turn up your volume and this will provide the audience with pretty much what you want them to hear.

After I figured this out my amp is ALWAYS tilted back now. I even get complements on my tone now. I can still hear at the end of the show. It's nice that I can myself better during a song. Practice is lot more balanced sound wise now and it seems a truce has been declared in the dreaded volume wars. Yeah! Tilting your amp back is the way to go.

I use this stand: http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MUS-RS7000-LIST
(disclaimer: NO I am not a shill for AMS. I am simply a customer)

For my Bugera V22 the amp sits up on the supports. For my V55H and 2x12" I put the head up on the supports and lean the speaker cabinet back on the legs of the stand. For my Fender Twin I just use the built-in legs. With just this one stand and my selection of amps I am covered for all situations.

Dave_C

05-07-2011, 06:26 PM

There is a huge difference in tone when you lean your amp back. I have one of those little amp lean back straps. It must be twice as bright when leaned back thus the eq has to be totally changed. Curious if you lean your amp back a bit.

It's not really twice as bright. Two things are happening.

You've decoupled the cab from the floor, so you're hearing the true bass response of the cab and amp themselves, which will be a lot tighter and less boomy than when being amplified with the extra resonance of the floor/stage. Just turn up the low end on your amp a bit and it will not only seem a little less bright but you'll get a fuller, more articulate bass response than you would with the floor coupled in.

Secondly, you're also now hearing a bit more of an on-axis sound from your speaker, which will indeed be brighter than the off-axis sound you've grown accustomed to. This fact, in particular, will require you to cut back on highs and presence a bit.

Overall, you'll end up with much better tone for your audience by doing the above. Many years ago, I recorded the before/after effect of getting the amp/cab off the floor and readjusting EQ and it was pretty surprising at how much more defined, articulate, less harsh, smooth and BIG the amp sounded FOH. It's really the way to go!

Old Tele man

05-07-2011, 06:48 PM

...Fender put "tilt-back" legs on his amps for a reason...so, I use them.

GTRJohnny

05-07-2011, 10:02 PM

I went to Home Depot and bought a rubberized doorstop. Very cheap, sounds better than the acoustic foam things, and doubles as a doorstop when not needed.

Flyin' Brian

05-07-2011, 10:44 PM

I went to Home Depot and bought a rubberized doorstop. Very cheap, sounds better than the acoustic foam things, and doubles as a doorstop when not needed.

What do you do to make sure it doesn't tip over backwards?

rhinocaster

05-07-2011, 11:25 PM

What do you do to make sure it doesn't tip over backwards?

A doorstop doesn't tilt an amp back far enough to put it in danger of tipping over backwards. I have one in my gig bag and use it all the time. It's a perfect little tool for the job.

I dig the doorstop because it doesn't point the amp directly at my ears. Really, that's just as bad for my sound as having my amp directing it's sound directly at the back of my knees and directly at the faces of the audience.

The goal is to hear what the audience hears. If the amp is pointed at our ears, then the audience isn't hearing that same thing, and our sound in the room can be diffused and dark (we also may be afraid of really hitting the guitar in fear of taking our own head off). If the amp is pointing at the audience, you're going to be overly bright if it sounds good to you when the sound is hitting you in the back of the knees (I know that you know this with all of your gig experience Brian :)).

I like the doorstop because it's between the two extremes and that tends to work for me. I actually REALLY dig the Dave Gonzales trick I saw when I caught the PALADINS. He just had a roll of Duct Tape. He taped his tremolo pedal to the floor and then tore off a piece of tape and rolled it in a ball and stuck it under the front of his amp. I felt like a tool with my chrome door stop! :D

GAT

05-07-2011, 11:37 PM

I put my cabs/amps on a Gramma and then stick a Clearsonic in front of it. Problem solved. I decouple the speakers and the ice pick thing is gone due to the plexi glass. No weird phase issues if you fold the Clearsonic a bit.

gmann

05-08-2011, 04:47 AM

If your tilting it back with the speakers aiming at your head, your hearing more what the amp actually is sounding like coming out of the speakers.

You should'nt EQ your amp based on how it sounds hitting your knees.

Keep this in mind when your mic'd up playing a gig or recording

This! This absolutely makes a huge difference. I like it point at my head as I can hear exactly how it's sounding in the stage mix. On my Fenders with tilt back legs I use 'em and with my tweed amps I have a stand that tilts it back. This is the way to go IMO.

vbf

05-08-2011, 04:54 AM

Yes, I always play it angled set upon a low stand. I also put it on a high angled amp stand from time to time as well.

Flyin' Brian

05-08-2011, 05:33 AM

A doorstop doesn't tilt an amp back far enough to put it in danger of tipping over backwards. I have one in my gig bag and use it all the time. It's a perfect little tool for the job.

I dig the doorstop because it doesn't point the amp directly at my ears. Really, that's just as bad for my sound as having my amp directing it's sound directly at the back of my knees and directly at the faces of the audience.

The goal is to hear what the audience hears. If the amp is pointed at our ears, then the audience isn't hearing that same thing, and our sound in the room can be diffused and dark (we also may be afraid of really hitting the guitar in fear of taking our own head off). If the amp is pointing at the audience, you're going to be overly bright if it sounds good to you when the sound is hitting you in the back of the knees (I know that you know this with all of your gig experience Brian :)).

I like the doorstop because it's between the two extremes and that tends to work for me. I actually REALLY dig the Dave Gonzales trick I saw when I caught the PALADINS. He just had a roll of Duct Tape. He taped his tremolo pedal to the floor and then tore off a piece of tape and rolled it in a ball and stuck it under the front of his amp. I felt like a tool with my chrome door stop! :D

Oh CHROME!! Why didn't you say so? :D

harryjmic

05-08-2011, 05:49 AM

I use this stand: http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MUS-RS7000-LIST
(disclaimer: NO I am not a shill for AMS. I am simply a customer)

Lots of good information. I have one of these stands and hate what it does to the sound. I know you say you can add bass etc...but it changes the sound so much eq changes won't return it to what it was before.

The best thing for me is to lean the amp against a wall. Usually I'm playing in small places anyway so most of the time I'm against a wall anyway. If I do have room I also have something made where I can tilt the amp back.

Having your amp firing straight ahead is pretty dumb and I can't believe I did this for so long. It sounds horrible from my perspective and doesn't help the band to hear you either. I really dislike knowing that a muffled blurred tone sounds excellent. I also like tilting the amp because it cuts just enough bass to get rid of the extra bass almost all amps seem to have.

Coldacre

05-08-2011, 06:22 AM

Nup

FFTT

05-08-2011, 08:02 AM

I used Quik-Lock tilt stands to keep the stupid cats from sleeping on my gear.

cr8z4life

05-08-2011, 09:11 AM

I understand what you guys are saying about tilting it back for eq purposes but dont agree for unmiced performances. Here is what I found and it was my friends band. They were performing at this place and there was a ledge behind him, so he put the amp on the ledge rather than the floor. So the amp wasnt tilited back, it was actually level on the ledge. What happened was he heard himself so good that he though he was loud enough, but yet I told him he couldnt be heard out front and he was lost in the mix......even his leads didnt cut through. So I think unless your letting the soundman control the mix by micing you, what you hear might not be what the audience here's.......

So I like that someone says, tilt back for EQ, then put it level with the ground, adjust bass, and turn up!

GTRJohnny

05-08-2011, 10:43 AM

A doorstop doesn't tilt an amp back far enough to put it in danger of tipping over backwards. I have one in my gig bag and use it all the time. It's a perfect little tool for the job.

:agree I bought the cream colored rubberized one. I use just one in the middle of the amp, and can adjust the angle by just sliding it back. And, it's true, it never has enough angle to be dangerous. The rubberized one also grips the bottom of the amp without scratching it and sticks to the floor. It's like a $3 solution, if that...

Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Hardware-Fasteners-Door-Hardware-Hinges-Stops/h_d1/N-5yc1vZaqle/R-100135263/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

Melodyman

05-08-2011, 04:12 PM

I usually set my 2x12 on the floor (especially if it's wood) and/or the room has good acoustics, but lately I kind of like it elevated like this...seems more accurate imo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/trock333/Up2x12001.jpg

walterw

05-08-2011, 04:28 PM

I dig the doorstop because it doesn't point the amp directly at my ears.

...If the amp is pointed at our ears, then the audience isn't hearing that same thing, and our sound in the room can be diffused and dark (we also may be afraid of really hitting the guitar in fear of taking our own head off). If the amp is pointing at the audience, you're going to be overly bright if it sounds good to you when the sound is hitting you in the back of the knees...

I like the doorstop because it's between the two extremes and that tends to work for me...
bingo!

the two factors involved here are, yes, low end coupling, and high-end on-axis coherence. that's the "death-ray" you get from a large driver creating "small" frequencies, i.e., guitar speakers creating treble.

if you can aim the amp so that nobody (including the soundman) is getting hit with the death ray dead-on, everybody will be happier.

i like it on the floor for the low end, but tilted to bring the death ray above the crowd's ears but below mine. (i find that tilting it back doesn't emasculate the bass nearly as much as lifting it off the floor entirely.)

liamjaeger

05-08-2011, 04:37 PM

Love the standback and use it all the time. 4 angle options and it tucks into the back of my amp. It helps me hear myself better in the mix.

uitar99

05-08-2011, 04:44 PM

I use an amp stand when ever I don't use an extension cabinet, Getting it off the ground and pointing at your ears makes all the difference

GAT

05-08-2011, 04:49 PM

Alton

05-08-2011, 04:59 PM

Lots of good information. I have one of these stands and hate what it does to the sound. I know you say you can add bass etc...but it changes the sound so much eq changes won't return it to what it was before.

The best thing for me is to lean the amp against a wall. Usually I'm playing in small places anyway so most of the time I'm against a wall anyway. If I do have room I also have something made where I can tilt the amp back.

Having your amp firing straight ahead is pretty dumb and I can't believe I did this for so long. It sounds horrible from my perspective and doesn't help the band to hear you either. I really dislike knowing that a muffled blurred tone sounds excellent. I also like tilting the amp because it cuts just enough bass to get rid of the extra bass almost all amps seem to have.

Leaning your amp back against is certainly a good idea especially if your amp does not produce the level of bass that you want. 10" & 12" guitar speakers are not the best reproducers of bass.

You certainly have the right idea though in doing what it takes to provide the best tone for your and most importantly, your audience. If you are your audience, well then it's just all too easy!

Quite frankly when I use my stand with the Bug V55H head on it and I lean the 2x12 cab back against the legs the sound is just awesome! I made an open back cab and I used the Bug speakers from a 4x12 Behringer cab. Those Bug speakers sound great with that amp. What's real interesting is that i get cleaner and warmer tones from the V55h and that cab than I do from my V22. But that V22 amp gets tones that sound more like a blend between a Vox and Fender and If I set the gain right it starts taking on more Marshall-like tones. Unfortunately I just can't get enough clean out of it. I get a fantastic breakup out of the V22 when playing on the clean channel. the V55H has yet to give me those sparkling, shimmering cleans.

My fender Twin just rocks whether it's clean or pushed but it's such a beast to haul around. I only use that for big (size) gigs or for what we deem to be important gigs (more money/more opportunity).

Not to change the subject but I want to try the WGS G12C speakers with the Bug V55H. I've tried the Emi CRex and they shaved off too much of the high end. I went back to the Bug speakers and have been happy but, you know, you get the urge to experiment to see if you can improve it some more.

So, back on topic. Just experiment with amp positions, stands and find out what is going to give you that tone that you and your audience likes. at volumes every one can handle.

rockon1

05-08-2011, 05:12 PM

I like to lean it back a bit with whatever I have on hand. As other have shared to point the amp hopefully above audeience ear level and I can hear it a tad better. I use a wireless. Its fun as hell and i can hear exactly what the audience hears to adjust my rig. : > ) Bob

vibroluxious

05-08-2011, 06:47 PM

I tilt back at some gigs especially if the band has 4 or more pieces. YOu can hear better, the audience isn't getting pummeled and you can generally play at a lower volume. I use a sugar container I "borrowed" from a club years ago that is the perfect height to tilt the amp back.

Zero G

05-08-2011, 06:57 PM

I'm a non-tilt type of guy. I found it a little harsh when the amp was pointing at my ears. YMMV.

Shiny_Beast

05-08-2011, 07:00 PM

yep

ChorusCrackpot

05-08-2011, 09:47 PM

ProToneThinline

05-09-2011, 04:34 AM

One of the main reasons I put my cabs on a Gramma and use Clearsonic is that when I used to point my cabs up or put them up higher, they bled through my vocal mic too much on small stages. Plus, when I would sing my head would block the cab and when I moved away from the mic the mic would pick up the amp too much. It sounded weird and drove the soundman crazy. I'm the lead singer so my vocal mic was always on.

Okay, I give up. What's a Gramma???

BTW, I always tilt my amps back. For my bigger amps I use a Kickstand. This was made by Mesa/Boogie a few years ago, and it's very cool. It looks like one of those pneumatic things that hold truck lids and hatchbacks up, with a padded clamp to attach to the top of your amp. For smaller amps, like my SCXD, I modded one of the cheapo fold up guitar stands.

I have a couple of amp stands, but I like the kickstand a little better.

Flyin' Brian

05-09-2011, 05:46 AM

ronmail65

05-09-2011, 06:58 AM

I'm always mic'd. So with a 1x12 combo, YES - tilted back on a stand pointed at my head. The amp is effectively my personal monitor. I think it works great for all reasons previously stated!

For half stacks or 2x12 configs, I put them on a small riser so I can hear them better -- getting them closer to my ears. The audience is hearing FOH - amp volume is for me.

In a live setting with a mic'd amp, I don't buy into any of the opinions or myths about how the amp sounds better / worse / different when leaned back, on a stand, flat on the floor, etc... It's a mic against a speaker in live venue with FOH sound -- in that situation I don't understand how any of this amp positioning can be relevant. Now, in a closed studio room with an ambient mic, I'm sure amp / cabinet position, flooring materials, etc... can impact the sound.

jlagrassa

05-09-2011, 07:34 AM

When I dont use my extension cab I prefer this device, it also keeps coupling to a minimum!

http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/ampwedgeiso-24807d1743a9c16854f03e7884f1b77b.jpg

mannish

05-09-2011, 07:39 AM

I use am amp stand that raises it up, tilts it back

soundchaser59

05-09-2011, 08:00 AM

First......
I'm always mic'd. So with a 1x12 combo, YES - tilted back on a stand pointed at my head. The amp is effectively my personal monitor.

Then.....
It's a mic against a speaker in live venue with FOH sound -- in that situation I don't understand how any of this amp positioning can be relevant.

You answered your own question before you asked it.

2HBStrat

05-09-2011, 08:14 AM

Nope, because I don't want to pummel my ears.

But I play as loud as I can get away with.

No offense but attitudes like this are why guitarists often get a bad rap by sound guys. First off you don't want to pummel your ears by tilting your amp back so you can hear the true sound (and tone), hey, I get that, but then why pummel the crowd? The tone that you're pummelling them with is NOT the tone you think you have, if you have your amp behind you on the floor (unless the amp is twenty feet or so back). Why put them thru that? Second, you play as loud as you can get away! Nice! If you play as loud as you can then who's to stop the drummer from playing as loud as he can get away with? Or the bass player? Why not blend with the band?

Bigger Fender amps had/have tilt back legs! Ever wonder why? To hear themselves and the actual true tone of their guitar and not kill the audience.

GAT

05-09-2011, 08:16 AM

Okay, I give up. What's a Gramma???

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp

chervokas

05-09-2011, 08:23 AM

Personally I much prefer hearing on axis sound so I know what I really sound like so I like the amp pointing in the general direction of my ears. If it's too loud and too bright, well, now I know it is and I need to make an adjustment. I also prefer the tighter, more natural bass response and better dispersion/less phase cancellation from floor reflections that result from getting the amp off the floor or tilted back. Amp stands, tilt-back legs, even putting an amp on a chair (if it's a small combo) all work for me.

Dave_C

05-09-2011, 08:35 AM

I use one of these:
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/5vXXxXzUIfAxtV43zZx1T6J_9MeqnlrBZO5cSq_vsIo0CuPbS6 7AcQhI6N0qOZBEAgJRP29vEg1VGP0evL84RmXlYJRI2mJAaQPX iMM9yCgnRT7KaAmtJuXZ8qpx-BRqGrk3e4QXdbJJ

It tilts the amp back and it gets it off the stage/floor. I find that I hear it so much better and the mic is picking up the true amp sounds and not the extra bass that comes from any of the terms you guys are using above.

I just ordered one of these On-Stage RS7500 Tiltback stands! I think it will solve the following problems for me.

I have tried the Fender tiltback-capable ampstand (see pic below), but it's often too high off the ground and I sometimes turn down too much and can't be heard FOH at unmic'ed gigs.

I have tried a couple Rubbermaid footstools (see pic below) and they're just about the right height most of the time, but they don't tilt (for the few times I want tilt) and they impart a strange overtone on some stages.

I have tried the Auralex Gramma, but found that it doesn't decouple as well as the Fender ampstand or even the Rubbermaid footstools and sometimes creates a little bit of a "tanky" midrange tone on some surfaces and in some rooms which the Fender ampstand does not.

So the OnStage RS7500 is closer to the ground than the Fender ampstand (check!), but offers 95-110 degrees tilt for when I actually want to hear myself better (check!) and will decouple better than the Gramma due to the tiny surface area actually making contact with the stage (check!).

Fender Ampstand:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/Fuchs_HRM_Rig.jpg

Rubbermaid Footstools:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/GW_112TH_Cab_Small.jpg

aarondavis

05-09-2011, 08:36 AM

2HBStrat

05-09-2011, 08:47 AM

Depends on the gig, but in one of my bands I almost always have my TopHat Club Royale or Dr. Z Z28 (my main gig amps) on an Ultimate Amp Stand. Helps keep stage volume down and keeps my amp from pointing at the soundguy, messing with his perception of the mix. Is the tone the absolute best...? No. But I'm in a band to make music, not just be a guitar player. ;)

That's a GREAT point! What might sound good to you as a guitar player playing alone might not work in a band mix. I used to play in a band with another guitar player whose tonal footprint was so huge that I had to get a sound that didn't even sound good by itself to sound good with the band.

mjt335

05-09-2011, 09:12 AM

I play mic'd pretty much all the time. I like to have the amp up off the ground pointed at my head or on top of its case pointed straight forward (not quite directly at my head, but much closer than my knees).

I've often thought about going the route of pointing my amp backwards or sideways and just putting guitar in my monitor in front of me. Assuming I'm playing a nice room where I get my own wedge/mix, it seems like this would be the most accurate way to hear what the audience is hearing. Plus, it would potentially allow me to crank the amp a little more than usual without upsetting the FOH engineer... Unfortunately, even though I like all the potential benefits of setting up this way I still haven't ever taken the plunge and just done it. I will one of these days!

venivici

05-09-2011, 09:16 AM

To answer the OP question , yes, yes I do.

ronmail65

05-09-2011, 10:42 AM

You answered your own question before you asked it.

Sorry I was unclear...

I made the second comment in reference to posts discussing how the postion of the amp impacts the tone (attenuated bass, coupling, etc...). I think these concepts are irrelevant when an amp is mic'd.

Position of the amp as a monitor so I can hear it better is a different concept.

Shiny_Beast

05-09-2011, 08:25 PM

I went out in the audience of one of our gigs when another guy was sitting in on my rig. I was getting the comfy off axis on stage and line drivng everyone else in the bar.

Now I get most of the blast on stage so I can ear it without killing people lined up directly with the speaker.

Dave_C

05-09-2011, 08:48 PM

Sorry I was unclear...

I made the second comment in reference to posts discussing how the postion of the amp impacts the tone (attenuated bass, coupling, etc...). I think these concepts are irrelevant when an amp is mic'd.

Position of the amp as a monitor so I can hear it better is a different concept.

I don't think that is always true. I think it depends a great deal on where the mic is positioned. You can get some pretty bad "proximity effect" with close mic'ing, which accentuates low end tremendously. Add to that the added low end from coupling, which is pretty omnidirectional and does get picked up by the mic, and you end up with a pretty problematic mic'ed signal hitting the FOH board. However, the ability to EQ it out is so great at the board that we never really hear how bad it is. If the amp is up off the ground, then the sound guy is just dealing with proximity effect, which means he doesn't have to roll off so much low end at the board.

Guitardave

10-25-2011, 01:01 PM

I've used this one for years http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/ultimate-support-amp-150-genesis-amp-stand/450568000000000

BUT - I chopped all the front legs down so that the angle is much shallower and the amp is only sitting a few inches off the floor.

As for the larger question - I'll repeat the same OBVIOUS point. If your amp isn't 10-20 ft. behind you or pointed towards your head - then you are not even hearing what your amp is pushing out. I find that when I have my amp on a stand I can hear myself clearly and have people asking me to turn up at times. If I leave it on the floor on tight stages I'm always fighting to hear myself clearly and get volume complaints.

Peteyvee

10-25-2011, 01:26 PM

On my amps with tilt legs (Super Reverb, DRRI), I use them. On my amps that don't have them (Marshall BBRI, Marshall 1987 w/4 X 12, Super Champ), I don't use them. Pretty simple actually, I just match the amp for the room... Big rooms with big stages (and outdoor gigs) get bigger amps and small rooms and dive bars get smaller amps that are often tilted or on a stand...

thedroid

10-25-2011, 05:05 PM

I've only recently bought an amp with tilt-back legs, and I like it. I can hear myself, and I'm actually being told to turn up sometimes.

I hadn't thought about the vocal mike bleed that someone mentioned. That's definitely an issue to think about.

geodr

10-25-2011, 05:48 PM

I went to Home Depot and bought a rubberized doorstop. Very cheap, sounds better than the acoustic foam things, and doubles as a doorstop when not needed.

Yup, I do the doorstop trick too -ampwedge on the cheap.

Endr_rpm

10-25-2011, 06:37 PM

I don't think that is always true. I think it depends a great deal on where the mic is positioned. You can get some pretty bad "proximity effect" with close mic'ing, which accentuates low end tremendously. Add to that the added low end from coupling, which is pretty omnidirectional and does get picked up by the mic, and you end up with a pretty problematic mic'ed signal hitting the FOH board. However, the ability to EQ it out is so great at the board that we never really hear how bad it is. If the amp is up off the ground, then the sound guy is just dealing with proximity effect, which means he doesn't have to roll off so much low end at the board.

This. I've also found that by aiming the amp at my head and off axis to the audience I can actually play LOUDER than a co-guitarist who just plonked his cab down on the floor. Also keeps me from stomping on the bass player, which as a bass player most of the time, I appreciate about myself as a player :)

sneakerpimp

10-25-2011, 11:01 PM

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5503960642_a2b12171af.jpg

this keeps the roommates and neighbors at bay: less bass resonance and sound goes directly to my ears instead of thru walls.

Shinequwa

10-25-2011, 11:41 PM

I have a slanted 2x12 cabinet, and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

bennybeatts

10-26-2011, 01:35 AM

good discussion. what about:

1. 4x12 cabinets with the top two speakers tilted up e.g. Marshall lead
2. 4x12 cabinets with all speakers parallel to floor e.g. Marshall bass
3. what about a cabinet on casters vs cabinet without casters

Average Joe

10-26-2011, 02:32 AM

I like to lean back the amp so that it's pointing at my ears. I often play a HC30 clone with a 1 X 12. I place the head on the floor and lean the cab back against it. IMHO I think the benifits of hearing the amp properly far outweigh any loss of coupling - if the sound get thinner by being lifted off the floor, well that's what the eq section is for

David Garner

10-26-2011, 04:57 AM

I use a tilt-back amp stand.

Nurk2

10-26-2011, 07:14 AM

This. Pointed right at my brain. If I can, I tuck it behind one of the FOH towers on stage and point it back at me. My apologies, but unless you are running without a PA, I firmly believe that no one in the audience should hear your amp anywhere but through the FOH. There's no way you can do that with the amp blowing at the back of your legs, and if you have the amp blowing at the back of your legs, there's no way that you can tell what you sound like. This stand cost me, like, 20 bucks years ago and has done hundreds and hundreds of gigs.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa358/nurk2/ampstand.jpg

stratotastic

10-26-2011, 07:26 AM

One of the main reasons I put my cabs on a Gramma and use Clearsonic is that when I used to point my cabs up or put them up higher, they bled through my vocal mic too much on small stages. Plus, when I would sing my head would block the cab and when I moved away from the mic the mic would pick up the amp too much. It sounded weird and drove the soundman crazy. I'm the lead singer so my vocal mic was always on.

Surprised this hasn't come up more. Maybe most of you guys don't sing?

I have the same issue. What I try to do is have the amp aiming at my head when I am standing somewhat away from the mic. When I am singing I don't want to amp blowing me away anyway. But when I am taking solos, playing something complex, or someone else is singing, then I'll move into the beam. Not a perfect solution, but good enough for what we do.

Nurk2

10-26-2011, 09:24 AM

Surprised this hasn't come up more. Maybe most of you guys don't sing?

I have the same issue. What I try to do is have the amp aiming at my head when I am standing somewhat away from the mic. When I am singing I don't want to amp blowing me away anyway. But when I am taking solos, playing something complex, or someone else is singing, then I'll move into the beam. Not a perfect solution, but good enough for what we do.

Most vocal mics, like an SM58, have a cardioid response pattern with good off-axis signal rejection. If you point your amp up at your head - but keep the amp basically behind you - then - yeah - move your head, beam the mic.

If you place your amp outside of the response pattern of the mic (to the side or in front of you, like a monitor) then you may reduce this problem significantly depending on how loud you're playing.

Off-axis signal rejection - this is why we like the SM58's and its ilk.

stratotastic

10-26-2011, 09:38 AM

Most vocal mics, like an SM58, have a cardioid response pattern with good off-axis signal rejection. If you point your amp up at your head - but keep the amp basically behind you - then - yeah - move your head, beam the mic.

If you place your amp outside of the response pattern of the mic (to the side or in front of you, like a monitor) then you may reduce this problem significantly depending on how loud you're playing.

Off-axis signal rejection - this is why we like the SM58's and its ilk.

Yeah, I aim the amp so it's slightly to my left or right when I'm at the vocal mic, so I can step into it when needed without the amp hitting the vocal mic (57 beta) too hard.