Side man gig: Have I got this right?

[21stcenturykid]

Hey all,

So I've just recently got a side man gig playing 'lead' and backing voc's for a local singer songwriter (Kostas has written one track on the album think he might be familiar to you americans). It's kind of country blues pop stuff, he's calling it Americana I don't know if thats a genre any of you are aware of. He's a good singer and so far seems a nice guy. I get a very decent amount of freedom really, plenty of solo's and as long as I don't get in the way I can do just about whatever I want within reason.
So that's all fine and dandy but here's where the problem lies...
and it's mainly a financial issues I guess!
So far we've done the album launch and about 8 rehearsals within one month. Spent considerable time learning all the part by ear and learning harmonies. And the only financial compensation I've received so far is £30 and I've had to give the drummer £10 for petrol for the lifts he's given me because I'm temporarily without transport. And from the start of next month I'll be travelling up to 45 minutes to get to rehearsals unless the rest of the band comes to rehearse at my house. And with the price of diesel in the UK at the moment £20 probably wouldn't cover the journey!
Now I understand the difficulties in making original music pay but I'm essentially a hired gun so should I expect for more for my time and effort? Or am I being unreasonable...?

What say thee?

[2HBStrat]

I would say that as a hired gun you should probably be compensated for rehearsals, depending I suppose on have many rehearsals there are, as well as gigs.

[CowTipton]

I think the only remedy is to approach him and relay your concerns, diplomatically of course.

And next time make sure you take care of these details beforehand. ;)

[harry65]

"And next time make sure you take care of these details beforehand"

THAT'S A BINGO.............

[CRBMoA]

"And next time make sure you take care of these details beforehand"

THAT'S A BINGO.............

+1,000

[DGTCrazy]

You really should have hashed that out prior to the agreement..............now ...you'll just look bitter....or opportunistic. Giving $$$ to the Drummer is just being decent.

My "Side Man" gig contract is easy. $33 hr, 3 hr. minimum & mileage. I'm sure pro's are much, much more.

A contract (written or oral) is your best friend................

[21stcenturykid]

Yeah I wish I had but I wanted the gig as it was something I haven't really done before. And was hoping it would be more fun that the wedding band I'm currently running which could get to a point where it's a bit of a drag in the future! So I didn't want to lose the gig by talking about finance stuff straight away.
There was never a point from the first audition/rehearsal where he said I was in the band apart from 'I\ll see you at the next rehearsal'.

I wasn't that bothered about until the point during the album launch where he didn't introduce the band at all... said thanks to the support act's but not us in the band. So it immediately made me think 'Well if he doesn't value me enough to introduce us at a gig then he can't really care that much about us as the band' especially without being paid! It's not like he isn't a seasoned performer and was flustered and forgot either...

[21stcenturykid]

You really should have hashed that out prior to the agreement..............now ...you'll just look bitter....or opportunistic. Giving $$$ to the Drummer is just being decent.

My "Side Man" gig contract is easy. $33 hr, 3 hr. minimum & mileage. I'm sure pro's are much, much more.

A contract (written or oral) is your best friend................

Yeah I know the costs of owning a car so it's no problem but it shouldn't be me paying the drummer's mileage in whole.

I don't think he could even come close to affording that amount of money for me. I don't want to lose a pretty fun gig and learning experience (might be some small UK tours happening) or ruin any reputation I might have as a good player in the local scene by saying I want this much money or I'm gone.

I guess I have to decide what the gigs worth it to me?

[harry65]

Yeah I wish I had but I wanted the gig as it was something I haven't really done before. And was hoping it would be more fun that the wedding band I'm currently running which could get to a point where it's a bit of a drag in the future! So I didn't want to lose the gig by talking about finance stuff straight away.
There was never a point from the first audition/rehearsal where he said I was in the band apart from 'I\ll see you at the next rehearsal'.

I wasn't that bothered about until the point during the album launch where he didn't introduce the band at all... said thanks to the support act's but not us in the band. So it immediately made me think 'Well if he doesn't value me enough to introduce us at a gig then he can't really care that much about us as the band' especially without being paid! It's not like he isn't a seasoned performer and was flustered and forgot either...



hmmm , shoulda introduced you guys , did he say "I" wanna thank the back up bands or "WE" wanna thank the back up bands , just left a gig i did for three years with a singer like that , biggest ego ever , was all about him all the time , so much happier now.............;)

[21stcenturykid]

Yeah my dad was at the gig and came straight up and said how it wasn't ok he didn't thank us at all. He thought it was an ego thing, but he doesn't seem like that to me so I'm not so sure what happened.
However, if I'm not getting paid I definitely want to be introduced so at least people know who I am if they ever want to use me!

[CRBMoA]

hmmm , shoulda introduced you guys , did he say "I" wanna thank the back up bands or "WE" wanna thank the back up bands , just left a gig i did for three years with a singer like that , biggest ego ever , was all about him all the time , so much happier now.............;)

Had a gig like that, on and off for years. I liked the guy, but.................

I got my cut when we got paid, but no pay for rehearsals, etc.......

We got into it once, and he was trying to tell me how he wanted a particular bass line to go. I told him, "You are not paying me for this rehearsal, so I get to pick the notes. As soon as you start paying me, YOU can start picking the notes!".

Nobody will respect you if you don't respect yourself. Now I am not saying be a tool. But I am saying to negotiate $$ up front, because nothing good ever happens down the road.................

[tiktok]

If the singer contacted you, you should be setting the price.

If you contacted the singer, he's probably going to setting the price.

[21stcenturykid]

Well I got the gig through the drummer. Was sent songs to learn and turned up at rehearsal... no talking about money at any point but when the next set of rehearsals comes up I'll make sure I sort it out. Otherwise it's not going to work out.

[Peteyvee]

Had a gig like that, on and off for years. I liked the guy, but.................

I got my cut when we got paid, but no pay for rehearsals, etc.......

We got into it once, and he was trying to tell me how he wanted a particular bass line to go. I told him, "You are not paying me for this rehearsal, so I get to pick the notes. As soon as you start paying me, YOU can start picking the notes!".

Nobody will respect you if you don't respect yourself. Now I am not saying be a tool. But I am saying to negotiate $$ up front, because nothing good ever happens down the road.................


I said the same thing to a bandleader once and then I quit after the next gig. Like you said, NEGOTIATE $$ UP FRONT. Otherwise, you're going to get screwed and not in the good way. I never did get paid for that last gig either. I chalked it up to experience.

[kwaping]

if I'm not getting paid I definitely want to be introduced so at least people know who I am if they ever want to use me!

I think that's a fair compromise to present to the guy, if you don't absolutely need the money.

[mediocreplayer]

For the people saying talk money upfront, I certainly understand that but I cannot do it. I think it's just not in some people (me included) for whatever reason. I feel it looks bad. Of course, ignoring it will more often than not put one in the situation the OP is in now, so that's pretty bad as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the main guy just openly discusses these issues in the initial meeting and remove all awkwardness? Alas...

[pcovers]

If you are willing to work for free, then that is your decision to make for the personal reason you make it. If you don't want to work for free, you need to consider walking away. You can only do what you have control of. What he "should" do seems a moot point. If you don't walk away after not being paid and not being credited, you have decided, for one reason or another, that doing it for little or nothing is better than not doing it.

As others suggested, a lesson learned for next time.

[21stcenturykid]

I'd probably continue to do it if my mileage was covered for any travelling. I definitely still want to be introduced regardless, I just find that rude. If he does it again at the next gig without saying a word about us then I'll say something but I hope it was a one off!

The guy has promise and the others are nice guys so we get on well. So I think a talk about expenses is in order and see what we can come up with. If they can rehearse at mine in the future then all I'll need is money for getting to gigs really!

Cheers for all the advice guys. Most helpful!

[gixxerrock]

I have dealt with a bunch of lead singer/songwriters like this. They call it their band, run it like a dictator and expect all the musicians to work for free for an extended period of time. In return you get to be around their greatness because they are "super talented and are going to be huge rock star." It probably hasn't even occurred to the singer that you are not happy as a clam with the current arrangement.

Musically, it can be a lot of fun, and if good gigs start happening, consider the rehearsal an investment. Only you can decide if it is worth it and at what point it stops being worth it.

[SyKrash]

I feel you on this but like many have said before it's best to really hash these things out beforehand.

I work as a sideman out here in LA and the musical climate is no different. (most) People will want you to work for free unless you get it in writing. Therefore I ALWAYS send and email in addition to any oral or verbal agreements and make sure that the MD, artist or whoever is cutting the check confirms all the details before I even spend a minute in rehearsal on stage or in the studio.

If they bellyache about it, then 9/10 it's a gig you wouldn't want in the first place. Most people ive worked with are happy to oblige and have it in writing in case any disputes ever come up. It keeps them honest and keeps the band honest as well.

At this point, the best thing to do is go in, hat in hand and say "hey I like what we're doing but is there any way we can improve the pay?" Explain the reasons, don't make threats and just try to bs diplomatic. Always be a team player no matter what.

[SyKrash]

Also, remember this:
Let's say you and the artist opened up a lemonade stand together and made $1 a day. If your bills come out to $.60 there's no use hitting up your partner for the extra money to cover you share of the expenses.

It's important to remember that THIS is what you're relationship is. You both are trying to make more money as a collective unit. So instead of asking the artist to take a pay cut, see what you can do to try to make your "lemonade stand" make more money.

Is the artist making more money since you've arrived?
Are you doing extra things that contribute to the financial success of the band?

If so you can mention these things and see if you can at least bs compensated financially for them.

For example: I worked for an artist out here doing rehearsals and getting paid like any sideman. One day she missed a rehearsal due to her csr breaking down but the band was ready to go and so i convinced the band to stay and rehearse anyways. We later talked and she asked me to step in as an MD. I wrote charts for some new tunes she had and rehearsed the band several times without her. In return I explained what I had been doing and asked for a raise. She obliged and we've been working in that capacity ever since.

[21stcenturykid]

I feel you on this but like many have said before it's best to really hash these things out beforehand.

I work as a sideman out here in LA and the musical climate is no different. (most) People will want you to work for free unless you get it in writing. Therefore I ALWAYS send and email in addition to any oral or verbal agreements and make sure that the MD, artist or whoever is cutting the check confirms all the details before I even spend a minute in rehearsal on stage or in the studio.

If they bellyache about it, then 9/10 it's a gig you wouldn't want in the first place. Most people ive worked with are happy to oblige and have it in writing in case any disputes ever come up. It keeps them honest and keeps the band honest as well.

At this point, the best thing to do is go in, hat in hand and say "hey I like what we're doing but is there any way we can improve the pay?" Explain the reasons, don't make threats and just try to bs diplomatic. Always be a team player no matter what.

Also, remember this:
Let's say you and the artist opened up a lemonade stand together and made $1 a day. If your bills come out to $.60 there's no use hitting up your partner for the extra money to cover you share of the expenses.

It's important to remember that THIS is what you're relationship is. You both are trying to make more money as a collective unit. So instead of asking the artist to take a pay cut, see what you can do to try to make your "lemonade stand" make more money.

Is the artist making more money since you've arrived?
Are you doing extra things that contribute to the financial success of the band?

If so you can mention these things and see if you can at least bs compensated financially for them.

For example: I worked for an artist out here doing rehearsals and getting paid like any sideman. One day she missed a rehearsal due to her csr breaking down but the band was ready to go and so i convinced the band to stay and rehearse anyways. We later talked and she asked me to step in as an MD. I wrote charts for some new tunes she had and rehearsed the band several times without her. In return I explained what I had been doing and asked for a raise. She obliged and we've been working in that capacity ever since.

Great advice thanks. Will keep that in mind!

I like to think he'd have a very hard job replacing me if I was to drop out as I certainly don't know anyone capable of doing what I'm doing for him (maybe he knows someone but the drummer had to ask me so I guess he didn't). So I hope I'm valuable enough to him to be worth paying at least expenses!

[pinhooker]

Not being paid and practicing frequently? Sounds like you're a member of the band.

[Swain]

Maybe mention the costs involved in traveling to and from practices and gigs? Either ask that the bandleader gives you the gas money for the driving, or that you find a place closer to your home and practice there. Either all the time, or every other time. That could cut the costs to you by 1/2. Maybe have them come to your place to practice sometimes?

If the bandleader has no money, then maybe suggest playing more of the smaller gigs, a little more often. A little $$$$ here and there can add up!

[Guitar Dave T]

Define "sideman" in your terms.

To me, it's a gig that does NOT require a lot of band rehearsals. It's a gig where I'm given material in advance to learn on my own, and then show up and get paid by the gig ($100 for a 3 set standard 4 hour show with breaks).

If I'm attending a lot of rehearsals, things start to move from "hired gun" to "vested interest member".

[pcovers]

You didn't say how much or if you got paid for the gig(s). Do you?

[21stcenturykid]

Define "sideman" in your terms.

Sideman: A musician hired to play original music written solely by the band leader. No creative input

Although I have a little creative input, but only on my parts and because he asks for our opinion on how things sound.

It's only an hour long set usually as it's just his album plus a few extra. But I'm guessing we'll end up sitting through plenty of support acts and that kind of thing so the time will add up.

If I was on the albums he's selling then I'd be expecting a cut unless I was paid up front for the sessions(would definitely be contracted at that point) so all I can expect a cut from is door money or money out of his own pocket for my expenses.

The more I think about it the more I realise I need to get him to rehearse near me/at my place (which would be free for him) or to pay me for expenses to get to further a field rehearsal spaces.

He's got loads of other material and I can see another album coming along a few months down the line, so there might be recording work on the horizon so he just needs to help me out on the rehearsal front and I should be able to make it work!

Here's his reverbnation page:T o n y B e n g t s s o n (http://www.reverbnation.com/tonybengtsson)

[Gas-man]

My "Side Man" gig contract is easy. $33 hr, 3 hr. minimum & mileage. I'm sure pro's are much, much more.


Does the hourly rate cover travel and set up/tear down time?

[mcknigs]

If it's worth it to you to continue investing money in playing with him, do that.

If it's not worth it, tell him. Say something like "I've been spending a lot of time and money on going to rehearsals and learning the songs and I'm not getting much back. We need to find a way to reduce my costs of attending rehearsals (by reimbursement for fuel, payment for rehearsals, fewer rehearsals, all of the above) and/or we need more gigs, better paid gigs, onstage credit for being in the band or all of the above. If he accomodates you and makes it worth your while, stay.

If he doesn't budge, say "it's been fun but it's just not worth it to me to continue under present circumstances. Call me if you reconsider. Good luck."

Also - yes, "Americana" is a commonly-used term in the US. My definition would be music that incorporates American styles that are the roots of modern rock music. Influences are primarily older country music, early rock & roll/rockabilly and blues. Arrangements tend to be more on the acoustic side than current pop music and emphasize songwriting. See also alt-country and American roots music. Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americana_music

Scott

[Teleman77]

I think the only remedy is to approach him and relay your concerns, diplomatically of course.

And next time make sure you take care of these details beforehand. ;)

This!!