Taming highs on my amp

[memoryman81]

I've got a bad cat cub 15r (first version, not cub 2) in a 210 combo. I really want to love this amp but the highs are extremely piercing. I usually have to dial the treble all the way down to zero (the treble and bass controls are interactive) and even have to cut my treble on my Tim pedal to around 3:00 for there to be a nice smooth overdrive tone. This is with a les Paul as well (forget about when I try and use the esquire). I can't help but think this isn't normal. The amp is definitely due for a tube change, so I dont know if that will help out a bit. I'm also considering a speaker swap (which can get pricey as it's a 210). I'm using the tone controls on my guitars which helps but still...no other amp I've ever played sounded so bright (even brittle, I daresay). I've read that these amps are very bright anyway, it could just be that (however, my buddy has a cub 2 and his doesn't sound this way). Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[Improbable Joe]

The Tim is supposed to be pretty bright as well. Have you emailed Bad Cat?

I just went through this with an Egnater amp, and I'll sort of quickly outline all the advice I got, and then what I did to fix it.

First, go directly from guitar to amp and skip the pedals. Then try someone else's guitar, swap cables, try a different power cable, plug into a different outlet. Try to find the same amp and play through it and see if it is just your amp. Then start to panic. Then swap strings on your guitar to flatwounds and tune down a half step. Then swap out the preamp tubes, and be happy. :)

[8len8]

Maybe switch to a guitar cable with high capacitance so it rolls off the highs. Or switch pickups.

[memoryman81]

I did contact them but never heard back from them. Granted, I only sent one email but figured the guys here would be more helpful. I have gone straight into the amp...which actually sounds fine...still bright, but I can live with it...it's mainly the overdrive tones that bother me...I'm not a huge fan of the natural breakup of the amp...it sounds a good deal fizzy, which then translates when I'm using pedals. In reality, I think my best option is a speaker swap...the stock celestions (G10-L 35s) may be the culprit. But due to finances, I'd really like to avoid dropping $400-500 on scumnicos or golds. I've thought about the alnicos that weber makes...the silver 10 and/or blue pup but don't know if I'd kick myself later for not spending the extra cash on a nicer set....I guess I was hoping for an inexpensive solution where someone's like, "I had the same issue, just do this..."

[memoryman81]

I hadn't thought about the high capacitance cables...I'm currently using monster "gold" cables from the guitar to the pedal board and out to the amp (using George Ls on the board)...not sure what capacitance that is...I've had them for years (nearly 10) and have never had issues with them, so I just assumed they were great.

[8len8]

I hadn't thought about the high capacitance cables...I'm currently using monster "gold" cables from the guitar to the pedal board and out to the amp (using George Ls on the board)...not sure what capacitance that is...I've had them for years (nearly 10) and have never had issues with them, so I just assumed they were great.

Maybe switch to Monster Jazz cables. I hear they have some high-end roll-off. I think the George L's will definitely pass tons of highs.

[6AM]

These amps are fairly bright as I believe that they're mostly designed for neck pickups use so bridge pickups take your head off. If you're happy with the tone you're getting, who cares where the a knobs are?

[GuitarSmitty]

Some relatively inexpensive (and easily reversible) suggestions:

1.) Weber Beam Blockers
2.) Fender Koil Kord - attenuates some highs, and has a vintage vibe
3.) Foam rings (details on these forums somewhere)

I use the Beam Blocker on my 15" Weber Chicago, with good results. You could always experiment with a little duct tape like Stevie Ray did, but the Beam Blocker works more effectively to my ears.

[hunter]

Funny with everyone talking about how BadCats are darker than Matchless - which they actually are. Still I can understand finding a Cub to be bright. My experience is with a 1-12 non-reverb model that I bought when they came out so it won't directly apply to a 2-10 version. I thought it was a little crisp myself. I swapped the stock Vintage 30 for a Weber P12S (Silver Bell I think they call it now) and have been satisfied since. Those speakers were way cheaper back then and I can understand the reluctance to drop big bucks on 2 speakers.

These amps are equipped with a bright cap on the volume pot and that can make em sensitive to some pedals and provide a fizzy result. The Timmy may be particularly susceptible to giving fizz with a bright cap. Once turned up, the cap loses influence but at volumes less than big club it is still crisping up the high end. I experimented with disconnecting the cap (as I did on Matchless amps) and it will definitely help make the amp more tolerant of OD pedals. In the end, I didn't care for the result and reconnected the cap on the Cub (and the Matchlesses).

In your case, you might try the bright cap. If you have the skills, it is fairly simple to locate and unsolder. Do it right and it is as easily reversed if you don't like it. While I didn't care for it, I had already swapped the speaker way before trying the cap so that may be a great solution in your case.

And swapping speakers is probably gonna help too but it's gonna cost. I really like the P12S in mine. Then I like that speaker in a lot of other amps too since I tend to prefer a little less bite. I've got one in a Lightning and it works equally well there.

Lastly, try other ODs. I am one of those folks that couldn't buy a thrill with a Timmy. I got OK results with a Blackstone, a Kar Krash, an AC Boost, a Zendrive, an RC Boost and even a TBIAC to give a few examples but I am sure there are plenty of others.

And I do turn the treble way down.

hunter

[ugameus]

Weber has 10" speakers in both American and British styles, as well as alnico and ceramic, that have a hemp cone as an available option. They will be "warmer" and "softer". I don't like too much in the treble department and I love hemp cones. I would suggest some version of a 12-65, but I don't know of any in the 10" format.

[shampoch]

...turn your guitar VOLUME down to 8

[memoryman81]

I think I'll try the fender coily cable first..then look into tubes and speakers. I already roll down the volume a little which helps. I guess i was just wanting to know if this was common, which it sounds like. I grew up on fender amps so it's taking some getting used to the el84 sound. I just wish I didn't have to fiddle as much with settings all the time, but that's the nature of things I suppose. Thanks for the suggestions.

[stratboy01]

i was getting strange high pitch frequencies out of an AC30 style amp. It was the 12ax7 preamp tube in V2. It had gone microphonic and was producing really bad tones in the upper registers. having said that, it could be a number of possibilities. good luck

[Endr_rpm]

On capacitance- I use a stock Crybaby wah for just this reason- It tames the highs on my Parker Deluxe in a very pleasing way. So yeah, try the cables, but also try some of your older, non true bypass, non buffered pedals too. Sometimes broke is the new fixed :)

[ruger9]

I've been down this road a few times, being a "treble hater" :) , and the only real solutions I've found are:

New tubes (this is more of maintenance than a fix...tubes get tired...altho it's usually a LOSS of high end that is suffered, not a brightness)

New speaker(s) (easiest & most effective solution)
New amp (it is possible it's simply not the amp for you)

The Beam Blockers are quite nice, but they only stop the "piercing highs" directly in front, they don't really lessen the highs.

Something else to keep in mind with tube amp design is the louder the amp goes (a MV if you have one, or just the vol pot if you don't), the brighter it will be. Whenever I turn up the loudness (MV) on my amp, I have to compensate by lowering the treble. Just the nature of the beast.

I've also went the modding route, and that definitely works- but I only do it on amps I've owned for awhile, and am pretty sure I'm not going to sell. As modding will hurt the resale value... especially of something boutique like a Bad Cat.

[memoryman81]

Well I really want to make this amp work for me...it's difficult finding good gear to trade locally...besides, the reason I went with the cub is because some of my favorite tones I've heard have come from the matchless/bad cat amps (true, these manufacturers have various models with different tones, sounds). And, in general, I'm very happy with the tone....it's just the icepick highs when I'm driving the amp that I'm trying to remedy...that, and fill it out a little. The 210 configuration may have a lot to do with it as well. When I get a little cash, I think I'm gonna buy a pair of alnico webers.

[Seegs]

Had a 1X 12" version and there is just an inherant brightness that goes along with an EL84 amp...especially a BadCat...as expensive as they are they come stock with the cheapest Chinese pre-amp tubes which I will never...for the life of me...understand...same thing with the Panther I owned and sold...

If it has to be this amp then tubes can help but speakers will help more...

There are many alnico speakers that roll off and sweeten the high end such as Scumnicos...Fane etc.

But before you do tubes and speakers...the first thing to try would be plugging straight into your amp bypassing your pedalboard...

Does that help and eliminate the problem...if so I know why;)

Chow,
Seegs

[ruger9]

Well I really want to make this amp work for me...it's difficult finding good gear to trade locally...besides, the reason I went with the cub is because some of my favorite tones I've heard have come from the matchless/bad cat amps .

If that's the case, you REALLY need to check out a Genz Benz Black Pearl 30. NO JOKE. Check out the "Black Pearl Posse" thread here. Total Badcat/Matchless goodness, for alot less money. Total sleeper amp.

As for speakers, hemp cones will warm up anything.

[memoryman81]

By God, I think I may have figured it out tonight. Ok, so I think my brightness issue has nearly everything to do with preamp distortion...the harshness that I'm hearing...the fizziness. I've always had both my volume and MV at around 10-11 o'clock (I had posted a thread once about it, asking which is best to have louder...got so many various responses that I just took a happy medium had them set around the same (well. The MV a tad higher). Tonight, I cranked the MV all the way up and set the volume to around 9:00 (the loudest I felt comfortable with the kids asleep upstairs). From what I could tell, things warmed up significantly. Now, the question is....is there anything to be done about that pesky preamp distortion (besides the obvious of keeping the volume lower)? For example, specific tubes that break up more musically?

[Seegs]

By God, I think I may have figured it out tonight. Ok, so I think my brightness issue has nearly everything to do with preamp distortion...the harshness that I'm hearing...the fizziness. I've always had both my volume and MV at around 10-11 o'clock (I had posted a thread once about it, asking which is best to have louder...got so many various responses that I just took a happy medium had them set around the same (well. The MV a tad higher). Tonight, I cranked the MV all the way up and set the volume to around 9:00 (the loudest I felt comfortable with the kids asleep upstairs). From what I could tell, things warmed up significantly. Now, the question is....is there anything to be done about that pesky preamp distortion (besides the obvious of keeping the volume lower)? For example, specific tubes that break up more musically?

Mullard or Brimar 12AX7s...or try plugging in without any GL cables in your signal path...

Chow,
Seegs

[memoryman81]

Well I'd rather not lose the GL cables...just spent nearly $100 on setting up my pedal board with them...are they really that bad? I always assumed that cables could only have the negative effect of rolling off highs, not adding them (never heard of cables that roll off lows). As far as the tubes, are those NOS tubes or in current production (I guess I can easily look into it....I've always heard Mullards referring NOS tubes).

[Wizard of Ozz]

JJECC83S in V1 preamp slot. It will definitely darken up the tone.

[Seegs]

Well I'd rather not lose the GL cables...just spent nearly $100 on setting up my pedal board with them...are they really that bad? I always assumed that cables could only have the negative effect of rolling off highs, not adding them (never heard of cables that roll off lows). As far as the tubes, are those NOS tubes or in current production (I guess I can easily look into it....I've always heard Mullards referring NOS tubes).

yep...IME and setup that is where the high end fizz came from...try playing without them and see what happens...if it's still there then you can still use them if not you know it was a contributing factor...

Chow,
Seegs

[memoryman81]

That's more like it! Hehe, don't get me wrong, I'm sure NOS tubes are amazing...but I'm just not going to spend $400 every year or so to retube my amp. I can manage the JJs

[memoryman81]

That's good to know, Seegs. That will be something I look into next. I wonder what it is about them that would do that. Are lava cables any better?

[Seegs]

Mullards and Brimar preamp tubes can be had cheaper...cost ya only $399 a year to retube;)

Chow,
Seegs

[memoryman81]

I'm really hoping you're referring to the mullard re-issue tubes ;)...seeing them sell for around $18 each. Anyone ever tried these? I'm under no delusion that they're on par with the older ones...just curious how they compare to JJs

[Seegs]

I'm really hoping you're referring to the mullard re-issue tubes ;)...seeing them sell for around $18 each. Anyone ever tried these? I'm under no delusion that they're on par with the older ones...just curious how they compare to JJs

Sorry havn't tried them...seriously sometimes you can find the NOS Mullards at a reasonable price...very creamy tube and nothing really compares to it...plus they last forever...spend $50 on one and have it last at least 5X as long as any current production tube...actually they are cheaper in the long run...can usually find some good deals on them in the Emporium...

Chow,
Seegs

[ruger9]

+1 on GL cables being very bright. I've read here that they don't (of course) add high end, but they do somehow attenuate low end, which when it gets to the amp amounts to the same things. Almost all of my "taming high end troubles" disappeared when I got rid of my GL cables. ESPECIALLY the ones that were longer than the 6" pedal connectors... like the one going from the pedalboard back to the amp.

[candid_x]

My son put a couple Mullard ri's in his BC to tame the highs and was pleased with the results.

[memoryman81]

50 bucks isn't too bad. The ones I've seen seem to got for over $100 each. So if I were to replace my GL cables, should I go with Lava cables or something cheaper?

[ruger9]

I use, and love, Spectraflex. I don't think you need to spend big bucks on cable, it's just that those GLs are bright. I have cheap connectors (I don't even know the brand) connecting all my pedals, with Spectraflex from guitar to pedalboard and pedalboard to amp.

[Schafrocks]

I think the GL's are brighter. It's not piercing, though. I don't think they roll off any low end though. My JCM 800 stomps with them through 12-65's. I noticed a big difference in clarity using the GL's.

[I.P. Freeley]

I've been struggling with the same issue with different amps over the years, I've pretty much concluded that the amp manufacturers just designed the amps to compensate for treble stealing pedals and regular guitar cables. I use the trick of a DOD FX65 chorus instead of a Crybaby out front to help. Piercing treble was especially a problem for me with stock Carvin pickups, I'm thinking that they too were designed with people using DOD, Boss, or other non transparent pedals in mind.

I also find that George L's let a lot more treble through as well.

You may want to try out the Eminence Ramrod speakers, too. They sound big and seemed to cut out some excessive treble when I tried them in an amp I had.

[solitaire]

Maybe you just don't like your speakers... ;)

[memoryman81]

I think that is it as well (not liking the speakers)

[memoryman81]

Well, turns out...knowing a little about the tone circuit helps out a good deal (go figure). I knew the treble and bass were interactive but didn't understand where the unity setting was...turns out (I believe) it is with both dials, treble and bass, tuned all the way down, not at noon (as I always assumed). So having that understanding has made all difference. I'm now keeping both dials down all the way and cranking the MV a lot more...tuning up the volume to my desired crunch tone...and then using the volume on my guitar to clean up the signal....this will change a lot of how I have messed with dirt pedals in the past....still gonna keep the Tim on, but I can probably simplify a lot of my setup (this may sound real basic, but for me, this was a revelation....) I've never used the natural breakup of an amp before to get my drive tones...always used a large variety of dirt pedals for that....so I'm looking forward to this new way of approaching things. The breakup is now much more smooth....still chimey and bright...but no longer harsh and ice picky....still gonna look into some other speakers at some point....but man...I feel like ive got a new amp to learn. Thanks again for all the help.

[gillman royce]

I'm not familiar with that amp per se, but if it's an EL84 driven combo, JJ's are definitely a dark power tube, probably the darkest currently available.

[mxandmyax]

maybe the nice webers made with a hemp cone? I don't know if an alnico i the route for u if u want to attenuate highs, they are typically a brighter speaker yeah?