A formal apology to J.T. Guitar, Steve Mesple and the staff at Wildwood Guitars

[Mike Eldred]

A formal apology to J.T. Guitar, Steve Mesple and the staff at Wildwood Guitars. In my hasty response to an online forum posting, I regrettably made some false assumptions and the impact of my position has unnecessarily and unfairly called into question the credibility of Wildwood Guitars and a loyal and passionate customer. The Fender Custom Shop Quality Assurance team and I are looking closely at the matter to make a fully informed determination. Quality is our highest priority and it is our continued commitment to create the world's finest guitars. Once again to Steve and J.T. my sincerest apologies.

Mike Eldred

[Jahn]

Kudos to the man-up, Mike. I'm sure the Case of the Shims will be solved forthwith, wot wot.

[Selsaral]

Wow this shim drama is intense.

[scuba200ft]

Props. Find me another muckity of a company as big as Fender willing to do this publicly.

Thats why these all of these live with me, and then some.

www.charvels.com

[davidos]

:beer

awesome Mike. See you at 4p at the Music Zoo.

[wishkahdaddy]

How about some of the boys who "called out" J. T.Guitars on the shim thread man up and apologize also. J. T. is as honest as the day is long. The line starts right here behind Mike Eldred...

[Mr Deluxe]

See folks, things said on the internet can effect real life. I can't believe how big some small things can blow up sometimes. Can't we all just get along? :wave

Mike has always seemed respectful and honest in his posts IMO, and the updates on the latest and greatest at Fender CS are always drool-worthy.

[Fab4ever]

Props to Mike and Fender. THAT is a classy response, sir.

[wes37]

Fwiw, as an unbiased 3rd party reading the thread in question, I did not perceive any slights against Fender's Custom Shop, Wildwood guitars, or JT. Seems to me that someone in the process thought a shim would enhance the guitar's playability and tone, and the buyer was anaware that this step would be taken.

Shim's out, buyer is happy, and hopefully everyone is now seeing this with cooler and calmer heads.

[Jahn]

How about some of the boys who "called out" J. T.Guitars on the shim thread man up and apologize also. J. T. is as honest as the day is long. The line starts right here behind Mike Eldred...


No one starts the day off waking up and thinking "hmm, I think i shall wish ill upon JT Guitars or his luthier today." It's all quite an understandable reaction when the first thread on this subject was couched in what one could percieve as an accusatory/inflammatory manner - the header being "which one of these don't belong on a Fender Custom Shop Strat?" followed by a picture of random strat parts including the shim - parts which as a whole wouldn't actually all belong on a strat since it included a dual humbucker pickguard with single pickup covers and the like.

I'll be honest, my first reaction was also "this smells like a set-up." it was kinda easy to call into question the fact that any of the parts in that pic were ever in a CS Strat, to be honest - or at least all of them at the same time. Mike probably thought the same, and coming from the perspective where shims weren't supposed to be part of the equation, he called JT Guitar out on it. That first thread was removed and a second less inflammatory thread without that header and pic was started, but by that time the spin was on - the OP basically said "I'm not lying, Mike is calling me out" and a lot of TGP guys were like "we're calling you out too, we are Very Suspicious."

So now that the dust has settled, what it really comes down to is that the shim didn't just come outta thin air - it was probably put in by someone at Fender who had a mea culpa day. Mike jumped the gun and manned up. JT Guitar hasn't chimed in yet but I'm sure he'll be the first to admit that the initial thread didn't start off on the right foot for a reasoned discussion on the matter. and TGP - hell, we're a pack of wolves. AROOOOO!!!

http://www.snakeandsnake.com/3wolfmoon.jpg

[bearbike137]

Props. Find me another muckity of a company as big as Fender willing to do this publicly.


Oh, come on - I'm sure Henry would do the same... :cool:

[J.T. Guitar]

Thank you Mike. As I've said before, I love every Fender Guitar I have. All have been purchased at Wildwood, as they will be in the future

I haven't seen them on this thread yet, but to the members that so readily called my honesty and the honesty of Wildwood into question... My PM inbox only holds so many apologies. For those that feel really bad, I do take PayPal. (For those without a sense of humor, I'm kidding.)

[tsar nicholas]

Props to Mr Eldred for being an hombre

[TheFife]

I only wish Fender could have been this classy when they screwed up my Custom shop guitar instead of their endless denials. Maybe things are finally turning around. For those like me who've been burned I'm guessing it's too little too late.

Brad

[Phalanx200bc]

I only wish Fender could have been this classy when they screwed up my Custom shop guitar instead of their endless denials. Maybe things are finally turning around. For those like me who've been burned I'm guessing it's too little too late.

Brad

Well Mike obviously posts here. I'm sure a polite PM to him might get you somewhere.

[coldfingaz]

I hope this thread gets consolidated with the other one

[TheFife]

Well Mike obviously posts here. I'm sure a polite PM to him might get you somewhere.

My problem with fender happened a couple of years ago, so there is no longer anything to fix. At the time, I tried handling the issue through the dealer and then through Fender. Knowing what I do now I should have made a thread like the "shim" thread and brought attention to the issue. That might have actually gotten me somewhere. What I found is that after the sale has been made the Fender Custom Shop will claim they aren't to blame (just like in the shim thread). Without the publicity that sort of thread brings they basically tell you to F off. At that point you hope the dealer takes responsibility for Fender's mistake and makes it right. If not you are sol.

The shim thread just proves what I've known for a long time. Fender will always say they didnt do it. They will blame you or the dealer. They will claim you screwed up the finish(my guitar), you screwed up the frets(also my guitar), you screwed up the fretboard (a recent thread where Mike E claimed the "Fender didn't do it), or you put the shim in.

Seriously. I've said it before. Mike should spend less time online claiming Fender didn't do it and more time in the shop controlling quality.


Brad

[Grandturk]

If everyone was happy with their guitars, WTF would we post about?

Also - I've used an Eric Johnson Jazz III pick as a shim once and it sounded extraordinary! Pure tone!

[tsar nicholas]

^ No fair, that needs to be posted in the "Big Four Shims" thread

[iahawk36]

Class act Mr. Eldred...kudos to you for owning what you did, and making it right.

[Autoesq]

Well done Mike. Anyone who has owned a business or managed many employees can attest to the fact that sometimes employees don't follow all of the company's procedures. I have no doubt that Mike's first response was based on his actual belief that none of his employees would use a cardboard shim.

[Grandturk]

^ No fair, that needs to be posted in the "Big Four Shims" thread

Let this be my formal apology, then.

[cg]

Very classy, Mike! Well done.

[donthasslethehoff]

I love you , Man!!!

[tjmicsak]

Let's all have a beer!
And Mike.....
All these wolves just want a lower price point Cabronita.....
Feed the wolves, feed the wolves with a little goat.....

[CharlyG]

:beer:banana:banana:BluesBros:beer

[scr@tchy]

My problem with fender happened a couple of years ago, so there is no longer anything to fix. At the time, I tried handling the issue through the dealer and then through Fender. Knowing what I do now I should have made a thread like the "shim" thread and brought attention to the issue. That might have actually gotten me somewhere. What I found is that after the sale has been made the Fender Custom Shop will claim they aren't to blame (just like in the shim thread). Without the publicity that sort of thread brings they basically tell you to F off. At that point you hope the dealer takes responsibility for Fender's mistake and makes it right. If not you are sol.

The shim thread just proves what I've known for a long time. Fender will always say they didnt do it. They will blame you or the dealer. They will claim you screwed up the finish(my guitar), you screwed up the frets(also my guitar), you screwed up the fretboard (a recent thread where Mike E claimed the "Fender didn't do it), or you put the shim in.

Seriously. I've said it before. Mike should spend less time online claiming Fender didn't do it and more time in the shop controlling quality.


Brad

Quoted for us little people who have been given the big company shuffle before. The room isn't quite all fanboys.

[Kmaz]

Fender recently replaced the neck on my American Vintage '62 Strat. The guitar is from 2003, but they've listened to the recommendation of their Authorized Service Center and now I'm a happy customer.

I know things don't work out for everyone, though.

[TRS1]

Yeah not really the thread for this.

My problem with fender happened a couple of years ago, so there is no longer anything to fix. At the time, I tried handling the issue through the dealer and then through Fender. Knowing what I do now I should have made a thread like the "shim" thread and brought attention to the issue. That might have actually gotten me somewhere. What I found is that after the sale has been made the Fender Custom Shop will claim they aren't to blame (just like in the shim thread). Without the publicity that sort of thread brings they basically tell you to F off. At that point you hope the dealer takes responsibility for Fender's mistake and makes it right. If not you are sol.

The shim thread just proves what I've known for a long time. Fender will always say they didnt do it. They will blame you or the dealer. They will claim you screwed up the finish(my guitar), you screwed up the frets(also my guitar), you screwed up the fretboard (a recent thread where Mike E claimed the "Fender didn't do it), or you put the shim in.

Seriously. I've said it before. Mike should spend less time online claiming Fender didn't do it and more time in the shop controlling quality.


Brad

[SuperSonic]

So who put the shim in? I missed that part. I don't have a dog in this fight just curious.

[colinesquire]

Somebody got reamed out by the higher-ups! Kudos to mike eldred for keeping it real in his often coy responses, but he does represent the fender brand & I'm sure he was reminded of that.

[In Absentia]

I love the Fender CS, and Wildwood guitars are the tits. I say no harm was done, but I have to say that my opinion of the OP is very high for making amends.

[In Absentia]

My problem with fender happened a couple of years ago, so there is no longer anything to fix. At the time, I tried handling the issue through the dealer and then through Fender. Knowing what I do now I should have made a thread like the "shim" thread and brought attention to the issue. That might have actually gotten me somewhere. What I found is that after the sale has been made the Fender Custom Shop will claim they aren't to blame (just like in the shim thread). Without the publicity that sort of thread brings they basically tell you to F off. At that point you hope the dealer takes responsibility for Fender's mistake and makes it right. If not you are sol.

The shim thread just proves what I've known for a long time. Fender will always say they didnt do it. They will blame you or the dealer. They will claim you screwed up the finish(my guitar), you screwed up the frets(also my guitar), you screwed up the fretboard (a recent thread where Mike E claimed the "Fender didn't do it), or you put the shim in.

Seriously. I've said it before. Mike should spend less time online claiming Fender didn't do it and more time in the shop controlling quality.


Brad

Fine, I confess...I did it! Just thought it would be funny to mess up your guitar.

[wishkahdaddy]

We've got a winner...Now here's a man who knows how the game is played.
There were a lot of boys throwing stones at the OP last week. Funny how they all disappeared now...
Somebody got reamed out by the higher-ups! Kudos to mike eldred for keeping it real in his often coy responses, but he does represent the fender brand & I'm sure he was reminded of that.

[JDouglee]

Proof that the game in now changed in the guitar business.

[John Hurtt]

We've got a winner...Now here's a man who knows how the game is played.
There were a lot of boys throwing stones at the OP last week. Funny how they all disappeared now...

Not really many stones thrown, actually...there were some that didn't take one persons word over another, though. The "evidence" was all basically a "he said, she said" type of deal that started out badly as the OP posted a...somewhat hazy presentation of the facts.

I'm happy that the situation is being resolved.

[pcovers]

Was the apology an acknowledgement of responsibility for placement of the shim or just for publicly pointing a finger?

[ef_in_fla]

How did we end up living in a world full of tiresome overblown apologies? Politicians, celebrities, athletes, guitar makers, etc. Ya just can't say nuthin' to nobody anymore.

PS: I'm sorry!!

[vbf]

Props to Fender! We all make mistakes but few are willing to man up like this gentleman did.

[coldfingaz]

Not really many stones thrown, actually...there were some that didn't take one persons word over another, though. The "evidence" was all basically a "he said, she said" type of deal that started out badly as the OP posted a...somewhat hazy presentation of the facts.

I'm happy that the situation is being resolved.


I am also very happy this is being resolved, but I can't agree with the "not many stones were thrown" part at all.

I never had a dog in the fight & I think most that didn't drew pretty sound educated conclusions about what very likely happened based on the various sides of the story as they were posted. But, the OP took an inordinate amount of crap from the typical TGP piling on forces... many of which seemed to have pretty clear/blind agendas.

It was shameful, really.

[davidos]

Shim-Gate and Weiner-Gate all in one week... wow, I am exhausted... now if Weiner would just...

[bismark]

Fender CS uses shims. Okey dokey, got it.

[scr@tchy]

Not really many stones thrown, actually...there were some that didn't take one persons word over another, though. The "evidence" was all basically a "he said, she said" type of deal that started out badly as the OP posted a...somewhat hazy presentation of the facts.

I'm happy that the situation is being resolved.


http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/what-dog-dawg-oh-really-12659776114.jpg

[DavidMgT]

Props to Mike and Fender. THAT is a classy response, sir.

Agreed.

[Jahn]

http://t-shirtguru.com/product-images/wolfpack-hangover-t-shirt-80stees.gif Arooooo!

[iliketea]

Can someone give me a link to the shim thread (if it's still alive)?

[Jahn]

Sorry, the original two threads are deleted. Plenty of parody shim threads floating around tho.

[scr@tchy]

Wow. Deleting the second one was a bit much. It was already closed. If it had been a smaller company in the crosshairs would that thread still be here to read?

[Jahn]

Heck we don't even know if the mods deleted it, or the OP did. Let's not make more assumptions!

[Zeon45]

Props to Mike Eldred for stepping up. I just hope Fender CS takes note and starts focusing more on Quality than Quantity. The prices for CS guitars aren't justified IMHO. I have Nash S-57 that blows away any of my CS Strats and cost half as much. Even the production Fenders can sometimes surpass the quality of CS guitars these days.

[scr@tchy]

Heck we don't even know if the mods deleted it, or the OP did. Let's not make more assumptions!

I would be surprised if J.T. did it, though I am prepared to be surprised.

[kovachian]

I've been confused over all these "shim" references these past few days, so I totally missed the show here. Is this (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K-_JkR2GgRsJ:www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php%3Fp%3D10730995+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk) one of the threads that started this mess?

[Sweetfinger]

There's three kinds of people:
1. People that make things happen
2. People that watch things happen
3. People who wonder, "What happened?"

I guess I'm in the #3 category here. Someone found a shim in their Fender? I see factory shims in old (60s and 70s) Fenders from time to time. IIRC some used to have little red "F" logos on them.
I'm glad it's all ironed out now. I'm sure I'm missing out on something else around here.....I'll just go check....

[scr@tchy]

I've been confused over all these "shim" references these past few days, so I totally missed the show here. Is this (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K-_JkR2GgRsJ:www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php%3Fp%3D10730995+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk) one of the threads that started this mess?

No.

Condensed run down, because it has been deleted and shouldn't have:

1)Someone found a shim in their $4000 Custom Shop Strat.

2)They posted about it and the Fender fanboys just wouldn't believe that Fender was to blame.

3)Someone from Fender posted that the Custom Shop doesn't use shims and it must have been the dealer (Wildwood) or the customer's tech who put in the shim.

4)Other Custom Shop owners came out saying that they too had shims.

5)Fanboys, oh the fanboys.

6)Fender apologizes for... well they didn't say but I assume it was that they didn't know they used shims in their expensive models and publicly stated that they did not.

[Jahn]

I've been confused over all these "shim" references these past few days, so I totally missed the show here. Is this (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K-_JkR2GgRsJ:www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php%3Fp%3D10730995+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk) one of the threads that started this mess?

yessir, that's a page from the middle of the first thread.

[M55ikael]

That's more like it! I only wish you were a little more humble before you got in trouble with Wildwood.

[J.T. Guitar]

While I really appreciate the apology, I never really had a problem with Mike E. Other than posting something that was untrue without actually checking it out. I'm sure that Mike posted what he thought to be true at the time. He assumed it was either me, Wildwood, or my tech that placed the shim, or that I just made the whole thing up. (A view that was shared by a bunch of stone-throwers here on TGP.) The attacks that Wildwood and I took as a result of his original post was unrelenting, and then Mike disappeared from the thread.

Now the responses on this thread are; "What a class act Mike is", "excellent Mike", "how great is Mike E", "what a man". Yet, I've not received one apology from the guys that accused me, Wildwood, and Kim (the tech) of outright dishonesty. Unlike Mike, these guys don't have the class to say they were wrong.

Not that I really expected apologies from the likes of those that were the worst knaves... But it does make very clear the content of their character.

Now I've said my piece. My honor and honesty, as well as Wildwood's has been vindicated.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue is over.

[puffin]

:dunno

It sure looks like you were right. Congratulations on that.

[pickaguitar]

You heard it...Shim-Gate is OVER!

Mike was a class act imo

[Jahn]

Here's a handy pic for the Wolfpack:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3438/5814838097_d7d4f2a140.jpg

[J.T. Guitar]

Should I apologize to JT :dunno

It sure looks like you were right. Congratulations on that.

Yeah, you get back to me if you ever feel the need. I'll be holding my breath.

:cool:

[shallbe]

I have not been seriously interested in anything from Fender in a while, and now I'm absolutely sure I won't be buying another one of their guitars. I used to play their guitars mainly, but have sold them now in favor of other brands that care more about their instruments and their customers.

JT & Wildwood were accused of either placing the shim or fabricating a story before the facts were in, by an employee of Fender. And then the piling on here.

Class act for apologizing after there was no other option? Apologize or ruin the realtionship with a top dealer?

The appropriate response would have been to investigate BEFORE emphatically stating that it did not leave the CS that way, thereby putting JT, Wildwood and the tech in the crosshairs.

[Devnor]

Now the responses on this thread are; "What a class act Mike is", "excellent Mike", "how great is Mike E", "what a man". Yet, I've not received one apology from the guys that accused me, Wildwood, and Kim (the tech) of outright dishonesty. Unlike Mike, these guys don't have the class to say they were wrong.

Not that I really expected apologies from the likes of those that were the worst knaves... But it does make very clear the content of their character.

Not sure why you'd expect an apology from anyone on TGP. Anyone that didn't fall for that picture of random parts was met with "maybe you like shims in your guitar". Nobody wants that; even on your guitar. You went on to call into question my new WW10 being delivered that day. If that was not enough then you needed to let everyone know you weren't "impressed" enough after you noodled on my guitar for a few minutes. Not sure why you thought that was necessary. Your calling me out on price. You then brought the shim question into my NGD thread.

I still don't understand if you have an issue with a brand new CS guitar bought from Wildwood why you'd post on TGP first...without giving the other parties involved a chance to make it right. But whatever I'm happy to see Fender taking care of the customer.

[guitarz1972]

Man, I love this stuff. :)

[Jahn]

Here we go!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/5814910643_5e53087481.jpg

[scr@tchy]

I have not been seriously interested in anything from Fender in a while, and now I'm absolutely sure I won't be buying another one of their guitars. I used to play their guitars mainly, but have sold them now in favor of other brands that care more about their instruments and their customers.

JT & Wildwood were accused of either placing the shim or fabricating a story before the facts were in, by an employee of Fender. And then the piling on here.

Class act for apologizing after there was no other option? Apologize or ruin the realtionship with a top dealer?

The appropriate response would have been to investigate BEFORE emphatically stating that it did not leave the CS that way, thereby putting JT, Wildwood and the tech in the crosshairs.

He really didn't have to apologize in my opinion, the thread was deleted and it wasn't like the entire nation saw it, there are members popping in who still had no idea. If just the people who saw that thread and their friends never bought another Fender it wouldn't have effected Fender in the least.

Mike could have said nothing and it would have went away in another week or two, and I'm sure the dealer would still want Fenders on the wall. I think it's a bit much to shun the entire company over this, plus: Telecaster Deluxes rule!

[J.T. Guitar]

In the interest of full disclosure. Here is a response by my tech and trusted friend;

It only matters if it's "yours," I guess...
What a sad commentary on so many fellow guitar players (?) Hopefully not..

I was really surprised to hear about all of this yesterday. In fact, after having spoken to the principles involved (except Mike Eldred), I'm still surprised that such a thing has garnered so much attention, anger, disbelief, etc. There is no more accurate term to use regarding the "shim" than to address it as a non-event.

I still enjoy - seriously enjoy - bringing guitars up to the potential instruments they usually can be, especially the better-crafted instruments such as those coming from the Fender Custom Shop. J.T.'s guitar was just the sort: A Wildwood 10 that was extremely resonant with a lot of string definition, low & high freq presence, and devoid of the sympathetic string-robbing vibrations that can come from a number of build points.

The guitar needed a minor relief adjustment and a complete bridge/trem set, plus a little tweak on the upper frets and nut. This was all routine and typical. The dry environs of Colorado caused a very slight neck shrinkage, so the fret ends got a "touch." When finished, the guitar was stellar IMO. J.T. was very pleased, and has apparently grown to appreciate the guitar even more.

When I removed the neck, I was surprised to see a single shim in the pocket. For those not familiar, most (if not all) C/S guitars are prepared with a sanded, unfinished neck pocket and neck mounting surface. I have never encountered labels, bar codes, anything other than unfinished wood in these areas (over many years of doing this type of work), and certainly not shims. I thought almost nothing of this at the time, but did mention it over the phone before delivering the finished guitar. J.T. received his guitar with the little shim clipped in the strings, just so he would know what I was referring to on the earlier call.

In my mind, this matter was inconsequential. The guitar set up beautifully across the fret board and throughout the register. There was never any need for a shim, and it was clearly placed in the pocket by mistake. Mistakes happen - every builder, big or small - nuts, frets, pickups, color & finish, tuners, saddles, pots, etc...etc. Price point has some effect on the frequency of errors; it's true.

Wildwood was completely unaware of this. They had the guitar in their possession for approximately a week. Other than Greg Koch, J.T was probably the first customer to play it, and he bought it. I know that I was the first person to disassemble the guitar. I found something that shouldn't have been where it was and removed it without consequence. This took less than a second and required no advanced skill.

While I think that most experienced techs would have handled this situation in a similar manner to my own near non-reaction, I feel very confident that 99% of serious guitar-playing and forum-participating enthusiasts would have probably raised the question and asked their peers if anyone else had a similar experience. It's a pretty benign question given the other topics that I've had the pleasure of wading through in similar venues.

I haven't read the accusations and near-slander that apparently ensued, but it's ridiculous and downright childish that people who have worked in and around guitars, and call themselves experienced players, would reign down on a fellow who simply bought a guitar, got a little work done to set it up, and had a question about it's construction.

If it was "yours," you'd be the one asking.

Hello All,
Kim

[Jahn]

Kim is right. a shim, or at least this particualar shim, should be inconsequential, especially if after shim removal bingo the guitar's just fine after a few tweaks. Kim's also right that J.T. was within his rights to bring it up on TGP without getting wolf-piled.

However, i have to say that I read that first post in that first thread and the OP's tone didn't SEEM like it was treating it as inconsequential. The subject really could have been introduced with a bit less Chicken Little, it seemed. Alas, the wolves smelled chicken, and the belittling commenced.

Let's just chalk it all up to one of those viral internet things where intended inflection gets lost in translation - add assumptions and general wrong side of the bedness, and you'll get a nice little tornado going from all sides.

[J.T. Guitar]

Not that I really expected apologies from the likes of those that were the worst knaves... But it does make very clear the content of their character.

Not sure why you'd expect an apology from anyone on TGP. Anyone that didn't fall for that picture of random parts was met with "maybe you like shims in your guitar". Nobody wants that; even on your guitar. You went on to call into question my new WW10 being delivered that day. If that was not enough then you needed to let everyone know you weren't "impressed" enough after you noodled on my guitar for a few minutes. Not sure why you thought that was necessary. Your calling me out on price. You then brought the shim question into my NGD thread.

I still don't understand if you have an issue with a brand new CS guitar bought from Wildwood why you'd post on TGP first...without giving the other parties involved a chance to make it right. But whatever I'm happy to see Fender taking care of the customer.

I rest my case...

This place is a crack up... Question a man's integrity, accuse him and a well established business of being dishonest, fine. But post that you weren't particularly impressed with a man's guitar, OMG that's completely out of line. :rotflmao

[CRAIG4FSU]

Off topic :D ,and i might have missed it,but can we see this axe that sounds to be quite a nice instrument?

I'm a sucker for geetar porn.Especially strats.

[Jahn]

I might be wrong, but i think it's the black one here?

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=859088

Which, btw, is a sweet Strat, and I'm a sucker for black strats in particular. I'd love to find the right one for me someday.

[pcovers]

Simple question for whoever has the facts: who put the shim there. That is, after all, what the entire two threads was about. The terrific apology did not claim responsibility. Can someone "man up" and just make it explicit? That would put an end to the specific nature of the original thread(s).

[pickaguitar]

It hasn't been determined to my knowledge

[bluesking55]

who cares

[J.T. Guitar]

Off topic :D ,and i might have missed it,but can we see this axe that sounds to be quite a nice instrument?

I'm a sucker for geetar porn.Especially strats.

This is it with it's Cruz MB 51' Nocaster brother...

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/JT_Guitar/IMG_0734.jpg

[Phalanx200bc]

$4000.00 price tag gives you the RIGHT as a customer to ask questions.

This comes down to customer service plain and simple.

If J.T.'s presentation caused such umbrage to the fanboi's, tough s@#*. It's not YOUR 4 grand.

[robertkoa]

Just on another thread recently- I did give my opinion ( not an authority on this stuff but ) that on a a premium instrument ( not even CS Quality ) in the CNC Era - there should be no need for a shim in a properly fitted super tight neck pocket .

[wizard333]

$4000.00 price tag gives you the RIGHT as a customer to ask questions.

This comes down to customer service plain and simple.

If J.T.'s presentation caused such umbrage to the fanboi's, tough s@#*. It's not YOUR 4 grand.



:agree

[DC1]

Well I apologize too.

For what?

I'm married, it's what we do....





dc

[SMark]

FWIW...

Fender.com has a forum on their website called "Ask Mike Eldred" where Mike responds directly to all sorts of questions similar to this. Mike clearly doesn't have a lot of time to be doing this, but he does it nevertheless and you can notice him posting at all hours of the day and night. If the question asked is a stupid question, Mike will often just ignore it. If it is a question that can be answered with one word, Mike will offer his one word answer. If it requires a detailed answer or needs more info, he spends more time with it. You can also tell that he often makes quick judgments about some of the posts, and then after providing his one or two word answer, he later returns with more details or questions. That seems to be just his way of doing things.


My problem with fender happened a couple of years ago, so there is no longer anything to fix. At the time, I tried handling the issue through the dealer and then through Fender. Knowing what I do now I should have made a thread like the "shim" thread and brought attention to the issue. That might have actually gotten me somewhere. What I found is that after the sale has been made the Fender Custom Shop will claim they aren't to blame (just like in the shim thread). Without the publicity that sort of thread brings they basically tell you to F off. At that point you hope the dealer takes responsibility for Fender's mistake and makes it right. If not you are sol.

The shim thread just proves what I've known for a long time. Fender will always say they didnt do it. They will blame you or the dealer. They will claim you screwed up the finish(my guitar), you screwed up the frets(also my guitar), you screwed up the fretboard (a recent thread where Mike E claimed the "Fender didn't do it), or you put the shim in.

Seriously. I've said it before. Mike should spend less time online claiming Fender didn't do it and more time in the shop controlling quality.


Brad

[Jahn]

Just on another thread recently- I did give my opinion ( not an authority on this stuff but ) that on a a premium instrument ( not even CS Quality ) in the CNC Era - there should be no need for a shim in a properly fitted super tight neck pocket .

yer right on that one, and in the case of JT's strat, you were right too. the shim was popped out, the neck put back on, after a setup Bingo it was good to go.

[GuitarTone]

While I really appreciate the apology, I never really had a problem with Mike E. Other than posting something that was untrue without actually checking it out. I'm sure that Mike posted what he thought to be true at the time. He assumed it was either me, Wildwood, or my tech that placed the shim, or that I just made the whole thing up. (A view that was shared by a bunch of stone-throwers here on TGP.) The attacks that Wildwood and I took as a result of his original post was unrelenting, and then Mike disappeared from the thread.

Now the responses on this thread are; "What a class act Mike is", "excellent Mike", "how great is Mike E", "what a man". Yet, I've not received one apology from the guys that accused me, Wildwood, and Kim (the tech) of outright dishonesty. Unlike Mike, these guys don't have the class to say they were wrong.

Not that I really expected apologies from the likes of those that were the worst knaves... But it does make very clear the content of their character.

Now I've said my piece. My honor and honesty, as well as Wildwood's has been vindicated.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue is over.

Surely by now you know how FOS guitarists are...nothing surprises me when it comes to guitarists? :)

[Mikeroesoft]

Good for you JT, there is no reason that you should have ever gone through that. You spent $4k on a guitar, and found out that someone tried to "quick fix" it with a piece of cardboard. Thats just not right.

I will also say Mike E. did the right thing. If I were in your shoes, I would have been defensive too. It shows that you care about the quality of what come out of the Fender CS, but good on you for taking care of your customer.

[J.T. Guitar]

Good for you JT, there is no reason that you should have ever gone through that. You spent $4k on a guitar, and found out that someone tried to "quick fix" it with a piece of cardboard. Thats just not right.

I will also say Mike E. did the right thing. If I were in your shoes, I would have been defensive too. It shows that you care about the quality of what come out of the Fender CS, but good on you for taking care of your customer.

Thanks Joel... You get your Arc yet? You're gonna love it with a Strat!

[tsar nicholas]

I tried to play it cool, but now my curiosity is eating me and I can't refrain from asking :

What's the problem or consequence with there being a shim in a guitar? I seriously don't know.

[pickaguitar]

I tried to play it cool, but now my curiosity is eating me and I can't refrain from asking :

What's the problem or consequence with there being a shim in a guitar? I seriously don't know.
It's there to help fit a neck to the body better if needed. Some say it affects tone and some say it doesn't

[John Hurtt]

In the interest of full disclosure. Here is a response by my tech and trusted friend;


When I removed the neck, I was surprised to see a single shim in the pocket. For those not familiar, most (if not all) C/S guitars are prepared with a sanded, unfinished neck pocket and neck mounting surface. I have never encountered labels, bar codes, anything other than unfinished wood in these areas (over many years of doing this type of work), and certainly not shims.


I thought that it was pretty standard for CS guitars to have both inked and/or indented "CS" or "relic".."NOS"...etc in the neck pockets.

Just curious...

[tsar nicholas]

It's there to help fit a neck to the body better if needed. Some say it affects tone and some say it doesn't

^ Thanks hombre!

[SuperSonic]

I am still not sure what the apology was for. Could some one clarify?

[John Hurtt]

I am still not sure what the apology was for. Could some one clarify?

When the thread(s) started, the issue was that a cardboard shim was placed in a high dollar Fender CS guitar. The OP stated that Fender had to have done it as his tech (who he trusted) and dealer (who he trusted) would never do such a thing.

Mike Eldred posted that the Fender CS does not use shims and that the OP should check for a different culprit.

It would appear that after some internal investigation, that Mike Eldred found that the CS either is or has used shims in some instruments. Mike did not say this, but it's pretty obvious that this must be the case.

So...either Mike was unaware of his CS policy on shim use...or someone was going against policy at Fender and this was uncovered.

[sanhozay]

This place is a crack up...


it's not really this place, it's not really the economy, it's not really the heat, it's not really the weather, it's just stimuli goosed with testosterone. it's reoccurring because there's a large population of contributors participating in discussions with measured confidence and assertions, yet lacking the knowledge or credentials needed to be truly qualified to speak on the topic. everybody is of expert opinion on the internet and everybody can equally speak out of turn, with despicable contempt for topic and reader.

i like your choice in gear!

[J.T. Guitar]

it's not really this place, it's not really the economy, it's not really the heat, it's not really the weather, it's just stimuli goosed with testosterone. it's reoccurring because there's a large population of contributors participating in discussions with measured confidence and assertions, yet lacking the knowledge or credentials needed to be truly qualified to speak on the topic. everybody is of expert opinion on the internet and everybody can equally speak out of turn, with despicable contempt for topic and reader.

i like your choice in gear!

I vote your post as "Post of the Year".

Thanks!

[Jahn]

"One is the loneliest number..."
http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/one-man-wolfpack2.jpg Aroo!

[MisterTV]

I will not rest until I find out who took the the leftover shims... umm, I mean strawberries... on the USS Caine!

http://phillips.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/128caine2.jpg

[SuperSonic]

it's not really this place, it's not really the economy, it's not really the heat, it's not really the weather, it's just stimuli goosed with testosterone. it's reoccurring because there's a large population of contributors participating in discussions with measured confidence and assertions, yet lacking the knowledge or credentials needed to be truly qualified to speak on the topic. everybody is of expert opinion on the internet and everybody can equally speak out of turn, with despicable contempt for topic and reader.

i like your choice in gear!

to paraphrase

"Often Wrong, Seldom in Doubt"

[pcovers]

It would appear that after some internal investigation, that Mike Eldred found that the CS either is or has used shims in some instruments. Mike did not say this, but it's pretty obvious that this must be the case.


If the intent was to apologize for pointing fingers at a customer and dealer on an internet forum, it did that well. If the intent was to own up to having found out that it was placed in the Fender production process, it didn't do that.

I assume Fender CS still believes it may have been placed outside of the fender production process, else one would think the apology would have also corrected the "we never do that here" posts.

[Jahn]

Or even shorter,

"He Said, He Said."

pcovers, you're right. Mike apologized for denying off the bat that it was CS - as of right now, we know CS could still be the culprit. Both JT and his luthier say it's not them. We can agree to agree that it's not either of them. Let's do that. Wildwood hasn't chimed in, but both Mike and JT say "let's not accuse them, I don't want to accuse them." So let's not.

Honestly, TGP just doesn't have the whole facts to point the finger, so since water gathers where gravity pushes it, the sluicegate is open over at the Custom Shop. Mike may or may not ever come back to TGP and say "hey guys, we found the culprit and we did this and that to make sure it won't happen again" but you know what? Even if they don't, you know Fender's making sure that none will go out in the future (hopefully!)

And thus, the whole bizness served as a decent PSA - if the strat doesn't need a shim, don't put it in there.

[big mike]

Makes me wish I'd seen the other threads.

This whole thing just seems bizarre.

[J.T. Guitar]

If the intent was to apologize for pointing fingers at a customer and dealer on an internet forum, it did that well. If the intent was to own up to having found out that it was placed in the Fender production process, it didn't do that.

I assume Fender CS still believes it may have been placed outside of the fender production process, else one would think the apology would have also corrected the "we never do that here" posts.

For the last (maybe the first?) time; Fender's Custom Shop uses shims, and they placed the shim in the guitar in question. There are several Fender CS guitars out there that have shims in them.

As to whether you think that is good or bad is up to you.

[SuperSonic]

Thanks for clarifying. Just wish fender had done it.

[CthonicEwes]

Well now I'm confused. I thought Eldred said explicitly that the Custom Shop does not use shims. Isn't that the root of the whole issue?

[pcovers]

Well now I'm confused. I thought Eldred said explicitly that the Custom Shop does not use shims. Isn't that the root of the whole issue?

It looks as though we are to infer from the apology, a vague veil of admission that the matter of fact statement was possibly not correct. I trust that JT has had the conversations necessary with all parties involved to know for certain where the shim was installed. He made it clear.

[esoteric pete]

this might be the funniest thread in a while....

you guys have nothing better to do? OH MY GOD< A PIECE OF PAPER IN MY GUITAR.

what do you guys do when you scratch the guitar? claim that fender doesnt do a good job finishing?

good grief. people are too hyper sensitive these days.

must be the chemtrails.

[rhinocaster]

This is, by far, the single best episode I've experienced in my time on TGP.

The first thread was epic. It was confrontational right off the bat and it delivered great drama until it was pulled from the shelves.

The second thread was better than the first and really set the stage for a TGP triology that would go down in history as the finest yet produced.

This third installment has the potential to be the best of the series. I love where it's going.

Screw BLACK SWAN - Give me more of the shim saga! :)

[wishkahdaddy]

It certainly did not help the issue and I can assure you that there is a reason Mike came on and apologized and is not chiming in now.
We've all been scolded at work at one time or another and this was Mike's turn...

To make Mike out to be a "class act" now is certainly not how I'm seeing things. Everyone is entitle to their opinion, however, but that certainly does not mean your opinion is correct. If the previous threads were still posted we could all see who's opinions were way out of line. Ironically, the Fender "Peanut Gallery" has all of a sudden became very, very, very quiet. A nice healthy slice of humble pie never hurt anyone!

Two scenerios played out with the Director of the CS at Fender:

Mike did not know his workers were using shims.

Mike knew but decided to try and cover it up.

Anyway you turn it does not look good when you are the guy with the title "Director" just before your name!

Well now I'm confused. I thought Eldred said explicitly that the Custom Shop does not use shims. Isn't that the root of the whole issue?

[Hwoltage]

Wow. TGP needs a drama notification option. I missed this entire episode.

[scr@tchy]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i107/ni77y/spocklock.jpg

[J.T. Guitar]

Tamen accusatores pessima tacere...

[SMark]

I'll bet Mike hasn't even been back to read the rest of this thread yet.

[Crowder]

It certainly did not help the issue and I can assure you that there is a reason Mike came on and apologized and is not chiming in now.
We've all been scolded at work at one time or another and this was Mike's turn...

To make Mike out to be a "class act" now is certainly not how I'm seeing things. Everyone is entitle to their opinion, however, but that certainly does not mean your opinion is correct. If the previous threads were still posted we could all see who's opinions were way out of line. Ironically, the Fender "Peanut Gallery" has all of a sudden became very, very, very quiet. A nice healthy slice of humble pie never hurt anyone!

Two scenerios played out with the Director of the CS at Fender:

Mike did not know his workers were using shims.

Mike knew but decided to try and cover it up.

Anyway you turn it does not look good when you are the guy with the title "Director" just before your name!

I think you probably have it about right.

[CthonicEwes]

I don't know. I think everyone should cool down a bit. At least Mike offered some sort of apology, and also suggested that some sort of investigation was in progress. Why don't we wait to hear the results instead of everyone drawing their own conclusions?

[jmoose]

Shim shim sala bim!!!!

Funny stuff.

FWIW I was one of the cats who called shenanigans on Mike Eldred in thread number two. I never saw the first thread, but I did see the second one where Mike said "the custom shop doesn't use shims" which was BS because I had seen at least two myself, one in a guitar I bought new! The other was in a friends guitar that HE bought new!

Not that I still have much of any clue what happened with JT & Wildwood... I gather he bought a guitar, had a setup done and asked a question about why the shim was installed. From there it went nutty.

Speaking of nutty, this is funny like a fruitcake...

The Fender Custom Shop Quality Assurance team and I are looking closely at the matter to make a fully informed determination.

Why exactly does the custom shop, be it Fenders or ANYONE else's need a "quality assurance team" at all? Shouldn't the title of "custom shop" alone, and the people working in such capacity be enough assurance that things are done correctly without additional oversight? The concept of self-policing work is not lost on many...

I can understand the "QAT" on an assembly line... but really, I'd imagine that at a certain point people working, doing their jobs at a higher level should be well aware of when things aren't exactly kosher.

Personally that makes my eye twitch more then finding a shim in a guitar... who cares about that? Why does the CS need the same oversight as an import line or toaster oven? Was anyones guitar inspected by #48? Like fruit of the loom?

[scr@tchy]

I don't know. I think everyone should cool down a bit. At least Mike offered some sort of apology, and also suggested that some sort of investigation was in progress. Why don't we wait to hear the results instead of everyone drawing their own conclusions?

You do know that you are on the internet right now don't you?:p But in this case at least it is based on info from the other threads and for once people are keeping to the facts. Which is amazing when you consider that usually doesn't happen within the confines of one thread by itself.

Mike is apologizing for what people say he is, that he said FCS doesn't use shims when they clearly do. I don't think he was lying when he said it though as has been thrown around. That would have been really stupid because he would have had to have known that it would have been disputed by anyone who found a shim in their CS guitar, which it was.

[Jahn]

btw, TGP has a bit of a track record for saying hello to famous folk or reps of big companies, then pretty soon after something happens to freak 'em out so they never return. i am not blaming JT in particular - it could have been shims last week, or relics the month before that (remember that near miss?) or who knows, artist endorsements next month, i dunno. but at least for me, this is a reminder of:

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/2063/original/arguecat.png?1266810790

Not a particular fanboi of Mayer, Seagal, Fender or whatever. Jus' sayin'!

[tsar nicholas]

^ Outstanding cabbit!

[Bro.Twang]

I'm ignorant when it come to FCS so I have a question. Are all of the guitars built by the "master builders" from start to finish. Or do they have some lesser qualified people come in to do assy or whatnot. I know in some shops I've been in (not guitar related) when things get busy sometime lesser qualified help comes in to finish up jobs. And typically qc suffers during this time. I'm just curious what are fcs protocols in this situation.

[TRS1]

btw, TGP has a bit of a track record for saying hello to famous folk or reps of big companies, then pretty soon after something happens to freak 'em out so they never return. i am not blaming JT in particular - it could have been shims last week, or relics the month before that (remember that near miss?) or who knows, artist endorsements next month, i dunno. but at least for me, this is a reminder of:

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/2063/original/arguecat.png?1266810790

Not a particular fanboi of Mayer, Seagal, Fender or whatever. Jus' sayin'!

Yep, I for one appreciate Mikes presence here. Not because he's a standup guy which I have no idea about, but rather because he's a direct connection and source to something that a lot of us (JT included) enjoy. Custom Fender instruments.

JT had a point when he posted the last two threads and I don't think it was to make such a big deal as it has become...That burden lies with the folks who want a full Public Service Announcement from the Obama administration that the FCS is a lawless bunch of hooligans who will burn your precious instruments ala Jimi while you sleep.

The classy Guys who think that a shim in a neck pocket equates to a total lack of institutional control on Fenders part are half of the problem here. The other half is the group that would burn JT for even uttering a word of negativity about Leos custom shop. The PSA guys who think shims from the FCS should have their own sticky on the forum to warn buyers and the blind mice fanboys all need less time trolling and more time with their nose in a Mel Bay.

JT got it right to question (with a bit of humor) why his guitar would have some ripped off piece of refrigerator box in the pocket, but he also got it right by saying that the instrument is a killer strat and he spoke with his tech and got a simple clear answer (which he posted). Now Mike E has apologized and it sounds like shims are a topic that wont be soon forgotten for the final assembly setup guys at FCS...so can we please just let it go...

[coldfingaz]

It looks as though we are to infer from the apology, a vague veil of admission that the matter of fact statement was possibly not correct.


Did anyone really expect anything more than this? Honestly, I give Eldred kudos for doing this much. The inferences in his apology are pretty clear (even though you're right... his statements alone were very very vague). But, the more he says here the more he will get chummed & prodded.

Not a good situation for Fender's Custom Shop at all, but honestly... I don't know if I would've responded much differently after initially stating such emphatic denials that their staff could even possibly be involved.

I'm just glad there's been some vindication of sorts for JT, his tech & Wildwood, whom were all unrelentingly called out on the carpet for absolutely no good reason.

[Mikeroesoft]

Thanks Joel... You get your Arc yet? You're gonna love it with a Strat!

No it just shipped out yesterday. I am up in Canadia...and our postal service is set to go on strike. I might be a couple weeks out yet. Hopefully though, if all goes well I will get it next week. The pics Jim sent of it are amazing. I cant wait to plug my strat style guitar into it.

[Cream]

Very funny that TGP took down the threads so people can't even read what transpired. I'm used to that kind of stuff on the "Ask Mike Eldred" board of the Fender forums, but not TGP... Unreal, actually.

[J.T. Guitar]

Very funny that TGP took down the threads so people can't even read what transpired. I'm used to that kind of stuff on the "Ask Mike Eldred" board of the Fender forums, but not TGP... Unreal, actually.

Full disclosure; I removed the first thread due to the probable and unwarranted "cloud of suspicion" being brought to my good friends at Wildwood Guitars.

The second thread was closed by a mod for what I was told "my own protection". With the second thread containing just as many false accusations and conjecture, toward me, my tech, and Wildwood, I thought it was best to have it removed too.

[bismark]

I'm surprised how many people here jumped to the defense of Fender CS in the first thread, accusing the TS of fabricating stories and supporting M.E.'s denial of that dreaded shim. Now that the truth is known, the very same people are praising M.E. and Fender CS for demonstrating their "sincere" apology.

You can't beat big brand's influences on its minions eh?

:huh

[Ampegasaur]

Let me see first off, I own 0 Fenders, 0 of their Custom shop guitars, and have no interest in gettting one. I said it in the 2nd thread, and will say it again. Bringing all of this here helped no one. The whole thing happened over a 3 day weekend, and everyone on both sides were making wild speculations. I have had problems with custom items, and regardless of who did what, dealt with the actual parties involved and resolved it. THEN, after it was settled I discussed the whole picture with others. All this did was create a mess, no matter what else is said. This was done to stir things up. Pretty jacked up all around. Be adults and handle it with other adults, instead of running into the schoolyard yelling somebody did me wrong. Flame away, but this is just how it came across to me.

[memiller]

I'm surprised how many people here jumped to the defense of Fender CS in the first thread, accusing the TS of fabricating stories and supporting M.E.'s denial of that dreaded shim. Now that the truth is known, the very same people are praising M.E. and Fender CS for demonstrating their "sincere" apology.

You can't beat big brand's influences on its minions eh?

:huh

This. I have to say Eldred's initial response was a bit too... shall we say... certain?

[coldfingaz]

Let me see first off, I own 0 Fenders, 0 of their Custom shop guitars, and have no interest in gettting one. I said it in the 2nd thread, and will say it again. Bringing all of this here helped no one. The whole thing happened over a 3 day weekend, and everyone on both sides were making wild speculations. I have had problems with custom items, and regardless of who did what, dealt with the actual parties involved and resolved it. THEN, after it was settled I discussed the whole picture with others. All this did was create a mess, no matter what else is said. This was done to stir things up. Pretty jacked up all around. Be adults and handle it with other adults, instead of running into the schoolyard yelling somebody did me wrong. Flame away, but this is just how it came across to me.


Are you kidding me?

This whole thing got clarified within a span of a few days in spite of all the Fender fanboy nonsense, disinformation & comically displaced venom that was directed at JT. The 2nd thread was unreal with guys just going off on unrelated tangents after either ignoring or not reading prior posts.

We now can have a little hope that Fender's Custom Shop will follow up internally & resolve whatever issues they have with their shim shim shimity shim use policies instead of flatly denying that could ever happen. Maybe those policies need to be adjusted... who knows.

I very seriously doubt this would've been addressed if Fender didn't get a little public egg on their face. Shim allegations surrounding their custom shop guitars have been out there for a few years, but always denied by Fender as far as I know. I think it's foolish to assume this incident would have changed anything if it was handled privately instead of so publicly, and maybe this will now result in some actual changes. It's been an education & pretty entertaining too.

[CRAIG4FSU]

This is it with it's Cruz MB 51' Nocaster brother...

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/JT_Guitar/IMG_0734.jpg
Nice choice.Congrats.:beer

[MRW55]

Let me see first off, I own 0 Fenders, 0 of their Custom shop guitars, and have no interest in gettting one. I said it in the 2nd thread, and will say it again. Bringing all of this here helped no one. The whole thing happened over a 3 day weekend, and everyone on both sides were making wild speculations. I have had problems with custom items, and regardless of who did what, dealt with the actual parties involved and resolved it. THEN, after it was settled I discussed the whole picture with others. All this did was create a mess, no matter what else is said. This was done to stir things up. Pretty jacked up all around. Be adults and handle it with other adults, instead of running into the schoolyard yelling somebody did me wrong. Flame away, but this is just how it came across to me.

I respectfully disagree. I think the upshot from all of this is that the Fender Custom Shop was forced to own up to taking shortcuts in construction/setup that just shouldn't be in a custom shop guitar. It also took away FCS ability to deflect responsibility and point fingers at other potential culprits.

[bearbike137]

Let me see first off, I own 0 Fenders, 0 of their Custom shop guitars, and have no interest in gettting one. I said it in the 2nd thread, and will say it again. Bringing all of this here helped no one. The whole thing happened over a 3 day weekend, and everyone on both sides were making wild speculations. I have had problems with custom items, and regardless of who did what, dealt with the actual parties involved and resolved it. THEN, after it was settled I discussed the whole picture with others. All this did was create a mess, no matter what else is said. This was done to stir things up. Pretty jacked up all around. Be adults and handle it with other adults, instead of running into the schoolyard yelling somebody did me wrong. Flame away, but this is just how it came across to me.

I agree. In fact, I was surprised the moderators allowed the first two threads. The TGP rules state: "You are free to post a link to a BBB site page about a company on TGP, but MAY NOT comment on any negative issues with companies on TGP." Am I missing something here?

[Jeremy47]

Agree start to finish. I have not been seriously interested in anything from Fender in a while, and now I'm absolutely sure I won't be buying another one of their guitars. I used to play their guitars mainly, but have sold them now in favor of other brands that care more about their instruments and their customers.

JT & Wildwood were accused of either placing the shim or fabricating a story before the facts were in, by an employee of Fender. And then the piling on here.

Class act for apologizing after there was no other option? Apologize or ruin the realtionship with a top dealer?

The appropriate response would have been to investigate BEFORE emphatically stating that it did not leave the CS that way, thereby putting JT, Wildwood and the tech in the crosshairs.

[coldfingaz]

I agree. In fact, I was surprised the moderators allowed the first two threads. The TGP rules state: "You are free to post a link to a BBB site page about a company on TGP, but MAY NOT comment on any negative issues with companies on TGP." Am I missing something here?


It was only a negative issue to those that personally have a negative view on shims being used in a $4K guitar. Many didn't think that was an issue at all. Plus, the culprit wasn't definitive in either of the past threads as there were at least 3 possibilities being tossed around & debated.

It was much more like a Clue mystery than a bashing thread.

[Ampegasaur]

Are you kidding me?

This whole thing got clarified within a span of a few days in spite of all the Fender fanboy nonsense, disinformation & comically displaced venom that was directed at JT. The 2nd thread was unreal with guys just going off on unrelated tangents after either ignoring or not reading prior posts.

We now can have a little hope that Fender's Custom Shop will follow up internally & resolve whatever issues they have with their shim shim shimity shim use policies instead of flatly denying that could ever happen. Maybe those policies need to be adjusted... who knows.

I very seriously doubt this would've been addressed if Fender didn't get a little public egg on their face. Shim allegations surrounding their custom shop guitars have been out there for a few years, but always denied by Fender as far as I know. I think it's foolish to assume this incident would have changed anything if it was handled privately instead of so publicly, and maybe this will now result in some actual changes. It's been an education & pretty entertaining too.

My point is/was get it resolved FIRST then post. What it did initially was cast a negative shadow on WW, JT, Fender CS, and "the tech", while being figured out. If there is bad things being done by any party involved, I am all for information after all the facts are known. To just throw it out there during a holiday weekend, when no REAL answer can be had immediately seemed somwhat irresponsible. It also seemd to go against some of the policies regarding talking about specific companies perceived wrongdoings. I always thought that was not allowed. This was always about the way it was handled, not if it should have been.

[Slowlicks]

MY experience with Fenders warranty service depratment has been nothing short of excellent. My 09 Am. Standard had an issue with the truss rod. My local warranty center inspected the neck, contacted Fender and within 3 weeks I had a brand new neck............ Thank You Fender!

As for this thread.. the three parties involved are getting a great amount of press.
A page taken right out of a Hollywood Get attention book. :)

[J.T. Guitar]

My point is/was get it resolved FIRST then post. What it did initially was cast a negative shadow on WW, JT, Fender CS, and "the tech", while being figured out. If there is bad things being done by any party involved, I am all for information after all the facts are known. To just throw it out there during a holiday weekend, when no REAL answer can be had immediately seemed somwhat irresponsible. It also seemd to go against some of the policies regarding talking about specific companies perceived wrongdoings. I always thought that was not allowed. This was always about the way it was handled, not if it should have been.

God forbid someone posts on the Gear Page without having all the facts... Heaven forbid, ON A HOLIDAY WEEKEND! :omg

You were one of the staunchest accusers. Questioning my integrity, the integrity of Wildwood, and my tech. Now, rather than admit you were wrong, you blame me for posting in the first place? Real classy bro.

:rolleyes:

[Jahn]

*Puts best Bogart fedora on* You see kid, it's all a case of:

http://www.wordsandpicturesonline.com/images/NOTME.gif

I think questioning is perfectly fine if everyone involved is intially saying "not me." How is TGP supposed to know?

Now that Fender is saying "we're not pointing the fingers out, we're going to check within" - well, that's a development. Now we can say "hmm, you know, JT and his tech are representing themselves, so you gotta take them at face value unless they are lying. Fender stated something as a representative, but employees that they represent may have done something counter to the company's official line. Which is what they're looking into. And no one's blaming Wildwood at this juncture."

So like I posted before, unless you want to call JT and his tech liars, which we don't, the best thing to do is assume it's Fender and let them take care of it. Again, this thing got blown WAY out of proportion, but hey, what's done is done and we probably won't see many sunflower shims in the future.

[Ampegasaur]

God forbid someone posts on the Gear Page without having all the facts... Heaven forbid, ON A HOLIDAY WEEKEND! :omg

You were one of the staunchest accusers. Questioning my integrity, the integrity of Wildwood, and my tech. Now, rather than admit you were wrong, you blame me for posting in the first place? Real classy bro.

:rolleyes:

Actually no I did not. EVER. I said to close the thread until you get all the facts. I never questioned anyone's integrity, your tech, or WW. I said exactly what I am saying now, you did not have all the facts, and get back with us when you did. You have me mistaken with someone else. I have never bought from WW, own no CS Fenders, or ANY Fenders. I just thought, then and now, the whole thing was a bad idea. Served no one, except to creat a giant argument. Actually YOU put a negative light on them, because no one knew for sure what happened. Again I never said 1 negative word about the parties involved, only you as the OP creating a mess without having all the facts.

[big mike]

You know my biggest issue as a moderator with this whole thing?

People decided to take it on themselves to attack a member that had an issue he was not happy about, and was looking for some input.

When I was growing up I was taught 'if you don't have anything nice to say, STFU'.

You can disagree with someone all you want.
But the personal attacks all over the place are beyond not cool. I wish they'd have been reported. Some of what I've seen is just junior high school ridiculous.

Simmah Dahn now!!

[Ampegasaur]

You know my biggest issue as a moderator with this whole thing?

People decided to take it on themselves to attack a member that had an issue he was not happy about, and was looking for some input.

When I was growing up I was taught 'if you don't have anything nice to say, STFU'.

You can disagree with someone all you want.
But the personal attacks all over the place are beyond not cool. I wish they'd have been reported. Some of what I've seen is just junior high school ridiculous.

Simmah Dahn now!!

If he presented it that way, that would be one thing, it was not presented that way. I think people should voice problems, just the method of doing it with a little tact would be nice. There was bad stuff on both sides.

[J.T. Guitar]

You know my biggest issue as a moderator with this whole thing?

People decided to take it on themselves to attack a member that had an issue he was not happy about, and was looking for some input.

When I was growing up I was taught 'if you don't have anything nice to say, STFU'.

You can disagree with someone all you want.
But the personal attacks all over the place are beyond not cool. I wish they'd have been reported. Some of what I've seen is just junior high school ridiculous.

Simmah Dahn now!!

:agree

Actually no I did not. EVER. I said to close the thread until you get all the facts. I never questioned anyone's integrity, your tech, or WW. I said exactly what I am saying now, you did not have all the facts, and get back with us when you did. You have me mistaken with someone else. I have never bought from WW, own no CS Fenders, or ANY Fenders. I just thought, then and now, the whole thing was a bad idea. Served no one, except to creat a giant argument. Actually YOU put a negative light on them, because no one knew for sure what happened. Again I never said 1 negative word about the parties involved, only you as the OP creating a mess without having all the facts.

:cool:

TGP would be a ghost town if only people with "facts" posted. I myself want the right to ask questions. You didn't even want me to have the ability to do that. Thankfully, it's not your call.

[big mike]

If he presented it that way, that would be one thing, it was not presented that way. I think people should voice problems, just the method of doing it with a little tact would be nice. There was bad stuff on both sides.


You're free to disagree with how it was presented. That's not the problem.

It's a discussion site, discuss.

[jtm622]

Again, that old Fender "Micro-Tilt" stuff is nothing but an over-engineered shim... Was "Micro-Tilt" simply "a solution in search of a problem", or is it a recognition that shimming a neck can be a viable option to improve a guitar's playability?
If bolt-on necks could not benefit from "shimming", then logically, Fender's "Micro-Tilt" option would have never gotten off the drawing board...
Fender recognized the potential BENEFITS of "shimming" a long time ago... Those benefits are REAL...
Why act so suprised when a Fender guitar shows up with a shim??? (Even a shim of undisclosed origin???)
:)

[tone?]

Because most of the people on here are junior high

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that forums are just plain a waste of time that in the end aggravate you for nothing
Because people hide behind a screen and don't show a decent amount of kindness and respect
Alot of it also is because of the fanboy attitude that alot of people, young people show. So no matter what the logic is you cannot put down 'their' brand because immature people make stuff like than bigger than life. THAT is why there are personal attacks because these people take it personally
When you start making your own money and realize that 4k equals ALOT of time and effort to make Fender or the president of the US doesn't matter to you. If they mess u up you and going to get pissed

Plus the Internet is about the WORSE medium for communication


You know my biggest issue as a moderator with this whole thing?

People decided to take it on themselves to attack a member that had an issue he was not happy about, and was looking for some input.

When I was growing up I was taught 'if you don't have anything nice to say, STFU'.

You can disagree with someone all you want.
But the personal attacks all over the place are beyond not cool. I wish they'd have been reported. Some of what I've seen is just junior high school ridiculous.

Simmah Dahn now!!

[tone?]

Because if a guitar is built properly you DONT need a shim
Is s shim neccessarily bad? No however that has ZERO to do with the fact that when you are paying a heap of money you want the guitar built with very accurate tolerances. THAT is what a master builder has over a production line

Get it???



Again, that old Fender "Micro-Tilt" stuff is nothing but an over-engineered shim... Was "Micro-Tilt" simply "a solution in search of a problem", or is it a recognition that shimming a neck can be a viable option to improve a guitar's playability?
If bolt-on necks could not benefit from "shimming", then logically, Fender's "Micro-Tilt" option would have never gotten off the drawing board...
Fender recognized the potential BENEFITS of "shimming" a long time ago... Those benefits are REAL...
Why act so suprised when a Fender guitar shows up with a shim??? (Even a shim of undisclosed origin???)
:)

[scr@tchy]

If he presented it that way, that would be one thing, it was not presented that way. I think people should voice problems, just the method of doing it with a little tact would be nice. There was bad stuff on both sides.

It was presented with an obvious joking picture in an obvious lighthearted but WTF? manner. The only thing J.T. did wrong was not take into account that people who can't read on the lines, really really can't read between the lines.

Looking at his original first post joke pic and thinking he was trying a fast one or being inflammatory is a great example of missing the mark.

[Cream]

I have not been seriously interested in anything from Fender in a while, and now I'm absolutely sure I won't be buying another one of their guitars. I used to play their guitars mainly, but have sold them now in favor of other brands that care more about their instruments and their customers.Whoa. There's a difference between Fender and Fender's Custom Shop -- different people overseeing each. There's a lot of great people at Fender and I don't think it's fair to accuse Leo's entire corporation for Mike Eldred's hot-headedness.

[jtm622]

Because if a guitar is built properly you DONT need a shim
Is s shim neccessarily bad? No however that has ZERO to do with the fact that when you are paying a heap of money you want the guitar built with very accurate tolerances. THAT is what a master builder has over a production line

Get it???

Yeah, I got it... And many thanks for setting me straight about a few things...

P.S. - Now here's a thought: You'll likely NEVER find a shim installed in a production line guitar by the factory...

H-m-m-m... So if one follows that thought ("no shim" = "better built") to it's LOGICAL CONCLUSION; then those Fender factory production line guitars must consistently be built better than Fender's CS guitars...

This whole frigging deal is "a tempest in a teapot", and is fraught with illogical expectations...

[Jahn]

It was presented with an obvious joking picture in an obvious lighthearted but WTF? manner. The only thing J.T. did wrong was not take into account that people who can't read on the lines, really really can't read between the lines.

Looking at his original first post joke pic and thinking he was trying a fast one or being inflammatory is a great example of missing the mark.

I think in hindsight, the majority of folks would agree. And those who had the foresight to not miss the mark and to read between the lines from the very first post in that first thread were indeed those with analytical powers greater than the average TGP dude. What is obvious to some isn't obvious to others.

So hey, the average TGPer didn't pick up on it right away, and thus the circus began. And you're right, there might have been some that knew that it was just a WTF and didn't think JT had the right to even ask WTF and thus went on a smear campaign. But honestly I think that group of posters is a small nugget. A small mean little nugget.

It could have been made a tad more obvious, but hey, when's the last time we've seen someone not being the most diplomatic they could be when posting about something that pisses them off? JT did that in his first post, and Mike did that with his first response. Hey, we're human, it happens.

[scr@tchy]

Because if a guitar is built properly you DONT need a shim
Is s shim neccessarily bad? No however that has ZERO to do with the fact that when you are paying a heap of money you want the guitar built with very accurate tolerances. THAT is what a master builder has over a production line

Get it???

People haven't got this for 3 threads. I share your pain.

[Ampegasaur]

It was presented with an obvious joking picture in an obvious lighthearted but WTF? manner. The only thing J.T. did wrong was not take into account that people who can't read on the lines, really really can't read between the lines.

Looking at his original first post joke pic and thinking he was trying a fast one or being inflammatory is a great example of missing the mark.

Never saw the first thread or original picture. I never said he was pulling a fast one, just to get all the facts and get back with us. It was closed when I came in. I only posted in and saw the 2nd thread. THAT is what I based it on. I stand my my original statements, and offer no apology, because I never insulted the OP, or questioned the parties involved. I am owed an apology for stating I said that.

[shallbe]

Whoa. There's a difference between Fender and Fender's Custom Shop -- different people overseeing each. There's a lot of great people at Fender and I don't think it's fair to accuse Leo's entire corporation for Mike Eldred's hot-headedness.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. This is just more of the same to me from Fender.

Our band had warranty issues with Fender amps, that were never really fixed during the warranty period. Intermittent problems that continued and always seemed to happen on stage vs. practice. When the problem continued after the warranty was up, we got no support from Fender or the dealer. We no longer have a single modern era Fender amp among us.

I'm positive there are some great people working at Fender. I just choose to spend my money with other companies, and have for a while.

[scr@tchy]

Never saw the first thread or original picture. I never said he was pulling a fast one, just to get all the facts and get back with us. It was closed when I came in. I only posted in and saw the 2nd thread. THAT is what I based it on. I stand my my original statements, and offer no apology, because I never insulted the OP, or questioned the parties involved. I am owed an apology for stating I said that.

I don't remember what you said in that thread, but in this thread you said " it was not presented that way". If you didn't see the first thread, then you didn't see how it was presented so I was bringing you up to speed. I do apologize because I was assuming you would want to know what you were talking about.:p

[Ampegasaur]

I don't remember what you said in that thread, but in this thread you said " it was not presented that way". If you didn't see the first thread, then you didn't see how it was presented so I was bringing you up to speed. I do apologize because I was assuming you would want to know what you were talking about.:p

I was referring to the way it was presented in the 2nd thread. He closed it, so no one could see it. The 2nd thread started off ugly and got uglier. Perhaps not opening a 2nd thread woiuld have been a good choice.

[lhallam]

For the last (maybe the first?) time; Fender's Custom Shop uses shims, and they placed the shim in the guitar in question. There are several Fender CS guitars out there that have shims in them.

As to whether you think that is good or bad is up to you.


JT - Could you please tell us the source of this information since I don't see it anywhere in this thread.

Sorry if you've already answered it.

People calling you out is ridiculous.

I can't think of any reason why a customer would make a false accusation while still stating they have no problem with the issue. Now if you said taking the shim out destroyed the gtr, I could at least understand people getting suspicious but that's the not the case here.

I found a "shim" under the nut of my $2,800 handmade gtr so I ask TGP what they thought. Everyone responded that there should not be shims in highly crafted gtrs.

When I called the builder, he got upset with me claiming it wasn't a shim and the builder paid my tech for a new nut with no arguments. Regardless, the nut was basically unplayable within one year's time. None of my other gtrs have ever had this happen.

When one pays top dollar for something, one expects top quality and full disclosure whether it's weight-relief or shims, plain and simple.

Especially if the luthier has a stellar reputation, you have to wonder why you are getting the 2nd class treatment.

As for the Fender apology, I applaud you. Far too many do not admit mistakes.

[Phalanx200bc]

So were not all getting a free CS Strat from this are we?

[AtomicAlive]

This is, by far, the single best episode I've experienced in my time on TGP.

The first thread was epic. It was confrontational right off the bat and it delivered great drama until it was pulled from the shelves.

The second thread was better than the first and really set the stage for a TGP triology that would go down in history as the finest yet produced.

This third installment has the potential to be the best of the series. I love where it's going.

Screw BLACK SWAN - Give me more of the shim saga! :)

Best thread I have ever seen since the "Fab Amps" fiasco on the old HC board...

[bearbike137]

People decided to take it on themselves to attack a member that had an issue he was not happy about, and was looking for some input.


You think he was looking for input? It looked to me like J.T. was unhappy with Fender and was letting everyone know about it. That's fine with me if that is fine with TGP.

By the way, my guess is that when any OP posts 200 times (exaggerating) on the same thread, ultimately it is going to become about them at some point. That's the just internet....(not saying it's right).

[coldfingaz]

You think he was looking for input? It looked to me like J.T. was unhappy with Fender and was letting everyone know about it. That's fine with me if that is fine with TGP.

By the way, my guess is that when any OP posts 200 times (exaggerating) on the same thread, ultimately it is going to become about them at some point. That's the just internet....(not saying it's right).



I think he was raising the issue in a semi-humorous "WTF?" way. Nothing wrong with that at all especially considering how enlightening, educational & entertaining it turned out to be.

Though, Fender loyalists will never see it that way.

Sort of neat how his suspicions & innuendos were all basically confirmed in the end, ain't it?

[memiller]

Why exactly does the custom shop, be it Fenders or ANYONE else's need a "quality assurance team" at all? Shouldn't the title of "custom shop" alone, and the people working in such capacity be enough assurance that things are done correctly without additional oversight? The concept of self-policing work is not lost on many...

I can understand the "QAT" on an assembly line... but really, I'd imagine that at a certain point people working, doing their jobs at a higher level should be well aware of when things aren't exactly kosher.

Personally that makes my eye twitch more then finding a shim in a guitar... who cares about that? Why does the CS need the same oversight as an import line or toaster oven? Was anyones guitar inspected by #48? Like fruit of the loom?

Compare the number of people here that own CS Fenders to the number of people that own, just as an example, a Thorn or a Myka. Hell, if you want better, compare it to the number that own CS Jacksons or BC Riches or ESP's or anything else. It's going to be a MUCH larger number. That's partly because Fender is the Big Daddy around here, but mostly because Fender's custom shop does a fairly high volume of business. Even the most custom of custom shops (as opposed to individual luthiers) has some production aspects, and things WILL slip by. We're not talking about a super-picky custom here. It's a basic guitar. Probably been touched by ten or twelve people. At all stages someone is responsible for one or two aspects of the construction. If one mistake slips by, you get a massive shitstorm like this idiotic shim thing has created.

THAT is why you have a QC team. To prevent as many idiotic internet shitstorms as possible. I know you'd like to think the CS acts in a "One man, one guitar" way, but I can assure you... it doesn't. Nobody does outside of individual builders.

[SuperSonic]

Same troll shows up in both threads.
I think if Fender put a shim in they should have come out and said it emphatically in their apology, just as emphatically as they denied it. JT had his facts "to the best of his knowledge" correct and Fender did not. They are the ones who should have been told to get their fact correct and then come back. thank God we are still free to discuss these matters in an open forum. TGP is pretty good about allowing discourse though it would nice if the second thread was merged. I think it would give us all some perspective.

[Phalanx200bc]

Same troll shows up in both threads.
I think if Fender put a shim in they should have come out and said it emphatically in their apology, just as emphatically as they denied it. JT had his facts "to the best of his knowledge" correct and Fender did not. They are the ones who should have been told to get their fact correct and then come back. thank God we are still free to discuss these matters in an open forum. TGP is pretty good about allowing discourse though it would nice if the second thread was merged. I think it would give us all some perspective.

Still awaitng the "Cease and Desist" order from Fender corporate lawyers.

[Timmo]

I wonder how many 'fanboys' of the FCS have already or will TODAY remove the neck on

THEIR $4K guitar.

I also wonder how FEW will admit to doing so.

I sure as hell would.



:rotflmao

[scr@tchy]

I was referring to the way it was presented in the 2nd thread. He closed it, so no one could see it. The 2nd thread started off ugly and got uglier. Perhaps not opening a 2nd thread woiuld have been a good choice.

I remember the second thread differently than you. He started it to try it again hopefully without the extra drama but by then it was too late the first thread idiots just carried over and became the notorious second thread idiots.

[ComanchePlayer]

I wonder how many 'fanboys' of the FCS have already or will TODAY remove the neck on

THEIR $4K guitar.

I also wonder how FEW will admit to doing so.

I sure as hell would.



:rotflmao

My very first thought when this all hit the fan.

[macmeda]

Wow this thread remind me of those big turnarounds in cities n Europe. Everything just goes in circles and it's fun but you can get dizzy.

[TRS1]

I remember the second thread differently than you. He started it to try it again hopefully without the extra drama but by then it was too late the first thread idiots just carried over and became the notorious second thread idiots.

...And now it's a bunch of third thread idiots.

[scr@tchy]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i107/ni77y/pleaselock.jpg

[donthasslethehoff]

I still love you man...IBFP...13

[ukslinger]

This thread saved a guitar of mine. I recently had a very nice LP that needed a proper set up. The tech recommended a shim to save a little money. But after reading the 1st couple threads I decided to go full on and get the whole nut replaced. The guitar now plays and sounds awesome again. Cost a little more but well worth it. Maybe a shim would have been fine but it seemed like I would be cutting some corners.

So I'm definately on the side that it should have come out of the shop 100% correct. This was a Gibson Custom Shop and I've spent several hundread dollars to finally get it right. Should have been that way from the jump. In fairness to Gibson the nut had been filed down too low by other techs, but that was a result of the guitar not being properly set up to begin with. IMHO if you buy a high end CS the guitar should be tits before if leaves the shop. Maybe still needing a few adjustments to personal taste but nothing like I had to do.

[Sweetfinger]

Because if a guitar is built properly you DONT need a shim

You aren't a luthier, are you? I will have to disagree here. That's like saying a "properly built guitar SHOULDN'T have to be humidified". It is a statement built on one or more assumptions that are not entirely valid.
Guitars are still(last time I checked) made of wood. You'd like to think that wood is a stable, reliable material but someone very wise said that a piece of wood will always remember being a tree, and tries to be one again. Just those minute differences in stability from piece to piece means that occasionally, you will need to adjust a neck angle.
The majority of FCS guitars that I see, and I presume, that are sold, are essentially copies or variants of vintage instruments. The vintage ones needed the occasional shim, and I would expect an exact copy to need one as well. It isn't just vintage instruments either. EVERY Taylor guitar has a shim, most of them TWO shims. Those occasionally need to be changed and trust me, you're not going to find a higher tolerance in a guitar than a Taylor.
Also, for various reasons, I like Strats set up with the saddles high and in order to do that you WILL need a shim to keep the action low. Basically, it isn't really possible to keep an object like a guitar made of wood within close enough tolerances to avoid needing shims and even if you could, there are aspects of personal preference that necessitate their use for setup.

[dankayaker]

Could someone explain (summary) of what all this is about ?

[donthasslethehoff]

Could someone explain (summary) of what all this is about ?

the movie..."Apocalypse Now"...pretty much sums it up...enjoy

[Fingers]

You aren't a luthier, are you?...Basically, it isn't really possible to keep an object like a guitar made of wood within close enough tolerances to avoid needing shims...

Are you joking? And no table can be made without needing a matchbook under one leg?

I didn't see the 1st thread, but read the 2nd. It appeared JT did resolve the issue via his own tech & then, as an apparently steady customer of these guitars, just tried to find out why the shim was there, & whether this was a regular occurance, for his own understanding. I have to wonder about the reading comprehension of people who continue to post about some other order of events so they can continue to scold.

I'm also kind of amazed at the kudos over this bold apology that is so unspecific that it's got people guessing what was being apologized for. You can see plenty of apologies like that on the news. People even applaud the apologist for "taking care of the customer" here when in fact that didn't happen. JT had made it right on his own before bringing the incident to our attention (unless I missed something that was in the 1st thread). It's setting a pretty low bar for "manning up" or even just the concept of an apology.

The apt finale here would be Fender saying they found the box the shim was from could be traced to an office refrigerator at Goldman Sachs.

[Butterscotch]

There may be one direct outcome from all of this, and that might be that Mike Eldred, and or anyone else from Fender, never appears on this board again! It would be a great pity if that were to be the case.

[scriptphase]

Could someone explain (summary) of what all this is about ?

1 - Guy finds shim in his custom shop strat.

2 - Dogs and cats living together...MASS HYSTERIA.

3 - Denouement.

[Axeplyr]

Are you joking? And no table can be made without needing a matchbook under one leg?

Not sure how you can compare a low-tolerance table with a guitar that has very close tolerances to thousandths of an inch?

JT's tech said he removed the shim and had no problems setting up the guitar. That suggests to me that the custom shop was pushing the envelope of precision on their setup.

I found a shim in the '52 Tele Reissue I bought new a few years back. I removed it to the same effect. No effect on tone, action, or playability that I could discern. Apparently the experts who assembled / set up the guitar did, and put what was a very tiny, thin piece of cardboard in the neck pocket. So they must have cared about dead-on action more than I did. And it would have made no sense to start hacking on the guitar with tools to get that last 1%, no?

Lots of armchair experts in here. Give it a rest already! If you don't like it, don't buy Fender products anymore.

But as was mentioned before, vintage Strats/Teles have them too, and I'm sure buyers of the vintage ones don't ask the seller if there is a shim before buying. And they're often paying much more than $4k.

[tone?]

Lots of armchair experts in here. Give it a rest already! If you don't like it, don't buy Fender products anymore.


wow good thing you dont work for Fender.
lol

Funny thing is the Mike E said that THE CUSTOM SHOP NEVER USES SHIMS.
So...............they must think it shouldnt be done on those instruments as well.
or else it would be something like
yeah we use shims because we think they add to the instrument.

funny i dont see Suhr, Tom Anderson, or Tyler use shims.
maybe they are just morons??
and dont know the secret of shims??

IMHO
if you are building a strat which essentially has an over 60 year old design. you better at least do a good job of getting the tolerances right.
Its not like they are spending alot of R&D on the same old design. which is a great design.
but at least get the tolerances right.
angle the pocket instead if you need to.
4k????

if you pay 4k for a guitar and you are ok with a shim in it. that money probably isnt yours or you did NOT work hard for it.

[jp1977]

You aren't a luthier, are you? I will have to disagree here. That's like saying a "properly built guitar SHOULDN'T have to be humidified". It is a statement built on one or more assumptions that are not entirely valid.
Guitars are still(last time I checked) made of wood. You'd like to think that wood is a stable, reliable material but someone very wise said that a piece of wood will always remember being a tree, and tries to be one again. Just those minute differences in stability from piece to piece means that occasionally, you will need to adjust a neck angle.
The majority of FCS guitars that I see, and I presume, that are sold, are essentially copies or variants of vintage instruments. The vintage ones needed the occasional shim, and I would expect an exact copy to need one as well. It isn't just vintage instruments either. EVERY Taylor guitar has a shim, most of them TWO shims. Those occasionally need to be changed and trust me, you're not going to find a higher tolerance in a guitar than a Taylor.
Also, for various reasons, I like Strats set up with the saddles high and in order to do that you WILL need a shim to keep the action low. Basically, it isn't really possible to keep an object like a guitar made of wood within close enough tolerances to avoid needing shims and even if you could, there are aspects of personal preference that necessitate their use for setup.
yeah and my chicken nugget just tried to fly away , must have remembered its past life. And my strats neck needed some branches pruned, must have had some fond memories of being a tree!!

[bismark]

Yeah, I got it... And many thanks for setting me straight about a few things...

P.S. - Now here's a thought: You'll likely NEVER find a shim installed in a production line guitar by the factory...

H-m-m-m... So if one follows that thought ("no shim" = "better built") to it's LOGICAL CONCLUSION; then those Fender factory production line guitars must consistently be built better than Fender's CS guitars...

This whole frigging deal is "a tempest in a teapot", and is fraught with illogical expectations...

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. What has production guitar got to do with this?

Of course production guitars do not have a shim. The QC check is not as stringent as the Custom Shop ones (better be so!), and it's not cost effective to put one in. As long as the guitars do not have major defects, they are certified "QC passed" and ready to be shipped out. But if you take some of these production guitars to an experience tech, he may probably recommend you a shim!

The simple questions you should be asking (instead of trying to sidetrack and be "logical") are......

- Why should you be paying $4K for the luxury of a shim, if the purpose of the shim is to correct a build deficiency of a $4K guitar?

- Do you still need a shim if the Fender CS people build their guitars properly?

- If the Fender CS people did not build their guitars properly and hence require a shim, is it acceptable for you to pay $4K for a supposedly defect-free CS guitar, without knowing there is a shim inside?

[coldfingaz]

Lots of armchair experts in here. Give it a rest already! If you don't like it, don't buy Fender products anymore.

But as was mentioned before, vintage Strats/Teles have them too, and I'm sure buyers of the vintage ones don't ask the seller if there is a shim before buying. And they're often paying much more than $4k.


And, here we go again... down the same exact path that led to much of the divide in the last two threads.

Fender's shim use history is not the issue.

The issue is that Fender's current custom shop director emphatically denied they ever use shims & said this is because there is no need to based on their custom shop assembly practices. He then suggested everyone else involved could be to blame, which included the customer, his tech & the Fender dealer that sold the guitar.

Turns out his blame insinuations were total BS, which was already fairly clear to non-Fender fanboys before Mike started this 3rd thread on the subject.

Some of you guys just aren't reading or understanding what the issue was/is, but by bringing new/unrelated stuff into this topic you're only giving Shimgate 2011 more legs.

[pcovers]

Many still are arguing against the first two threads based on assumptions of what the thread intent was as opposed to what the reality of the thread intent was. The debate did not escalate because of the merits or demerits of shims (though some tried to steer it in that directions), it escalated becasue a Fender CS rep called out the owner, tech, and dealer for suggesting that the shim was installed at Fender. The argument was not over shim value, per se, it was over an arrogant statement from a Fender rep and a group of Fender apologists jumping on the owner for not having "all the facts".

JT did have the facts (many just preferred to believe the company line as opposed to JT) and Fender did come back and offer a vague and weak admission. If you are going to argue about the nonsense of the threads that started the firestorm at least argue over what the intent of the threads were:

1. If you buy a Custom Shop fender you are reasonable in your assumption that the setup is good enough to not need a shim when it leaves the CS.

2. Fender should not make statements of fact (Fender CS does NOT use shims), implying complicity or dishonesty on the part of the owner, tech, or dealer, at least until Fender had all the facts.

That is what the original threads were about.

[CRAIG4FSU]

Wow.13 pages.Yawn.:horse

[v-verb]

Wow.13 pages.Yawn.:horse

Yep.

Had a shim

Didn't need it

Shim removed

Guitar played great before and still does

ZERO loss of value of the guitar

However...

LOTS of panty twisting on this forum. Very funny!!

[SuperSonic]

It astounds me that people come to a discussion forum to tell people not to discuss. Amazing.

[Clam]

If I'm paying 4k for a Strat, it better be handcarved out of some kind of magic hobbitwood by Clapton himself, or maybe Dan Rather.... someone like that. And it better be finished with some of Charlie Sheen's tiger blood. Any shimming damn well oughta be done with bacon. It's about standards, people.

[tsar nicholas]

If I'm paying 4k for a Strat, it better be handcarved out of some kind of magic hobbitwood by ..maybe Dan Rather...


^ Rather would make a killing if he started building guitars. The shims could be made out of pure gravitas.

[J.T. Guitar]

Until you've played one...

[J.T. Guitar]

^ Rather would make a killing if he started building guitars. The shims could be made out of pure gravitas.

More likely fictitious memo document paper... :D

[alguit]

I'd rather have a Rather. Courage.

Still, a Fender Claptone might be cool, too.

[Dale]

This thread is really getting funny.

[JoeP]

Don't think that Mike didn't come on here apologizing profusely because and just because someone made a mistake.

He came on here because it could have cost Fender a big bunch of money. Wildwood is the most trusted, reputable dealer in America. This could have cost Fender dearly.

So, don't think it's all just because someone made a mistake.

It was damage control 101.

Anyone, that questions Wildwood, their staff and their business, is someone who just don't have a clue with the reality of how good these folks are, not only to their customers but to the factories they support with their sales and service.

I don't think it was because of someone made a mistake...

I guarantee you I won't buy any Fender product. But, I absolutely will buy guitars from Wildwood, without hesitation..

And my run in's with J.T is he's one stand up guy, and if it's the way he says, then it's the way it is.

That's called integrity. Something that alot of forum dwellers lack in...

[Zero G]

^^ :aok

[doublee]

This thread is really getting funny.

Silly and ridiculous maybe even, some peeps seem to have alot of idle time to
waste.

[wizard333]

Rather would make a killing if he started building guitars. The shims could be made out of pure gravitas.

Or pure lies and fascist propaganda, which he has in abundance and has for decades.

[v-verb]

It astounds me that people come to a discussion forum to tell people not to discuss. Amazing.

So go ahead and discuss.

:horse

[Pietro]

Let it freaking die already!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg

Beating a dead horse? Heck... I think we are beating a freaking FOSSILIZED HORSE!

fwiw, I am actually totally on JT's side on this...

[v-verb]

Let it freaking die already!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg

Beating a dead horse? Heck... I think we are beating a freaking FOSSILIZED HORSE!

fwiw, I am actually totally on JT's side on this...

LOL!! Very cool.

Yes I am as well. Fender shouldn't have done it on a CS guitar, nor should they have blamed others.

However the amount of angst in this thread or the deleted ones is...unmanly. There. I said it.

:hide2

[doublee]

[QUOTE Fender shouldn't have done it on a CS guitar, nor should they have blamed others.[/QUOTE]

I think we were there many pages ago but thanks for repeating.

Imagine for a second life without Fender....life wouldnt be as we know it and not a world I want to live in.

[v-verb]

[QUOTE Fender shouldn't have done it on a CS guitar, nor should they have blamed others.

I think we were there many pages ago but thanks for repeating.

Imagine for a second life without Fender....life wouldnt be as we know it and not a world I want to live in.[/QUOTE]

Very welcome Richard:barf

[small axe]

wildwood guitars rocks......i bought my santana brazilian from there

[tsar nicholas]

Or pure lies and fascist propaganda, which he has in abundance and has for decades.

^ Hey maaaan, just because a guy's job is promoting wars, condoning the massacre of innocents, and assisting the erosion of liberty, that doesn't make him a fascist!











wait

[pcovers]

Frankly, I think discussing this one topic for another 30 days is just about what we do every day with 90% of all topics posted. The majority of new threads are nothing more than rehashes of the old threads that were posted and discussed dozens of times before the most recent same topic was posted and discussed.

Almost everything on TGP is redundant and, to a large degree, beats the same dead horse over and over - it's just that it usually takes place over dozens of near identical threads and this one it taking place in the same thread.

Maybe it's time for another swing at the "does X affect tone" or "who hates Heritage headstocks" horse.

[Mortebpmb]

:knitting

[CRAIG4FSU]

wildwood guitars rocks......i bought my santana brazilian from there
Agreed.I have purchased 5 instruments from the them.One of which is on it's way and is a Les Paul studio (faded brown).

Bruce,Lance,Troy,etc are great to deal with and we'll do business for a long time.

[wishkahdaddy]

Frankly, I think discussing this one topic for another 30 days is just about what we do every day with 90% of all topics posted. The majority of new threads are nothing more than rehashes of the old threads that were posted and discussed dozens of times before the most recent same topic was posted and discussed.

Almost everything on TGP is redundant and, to a large degree, beats the same dead horse over and over - it's just that it usually takes place over dozens of near identical threads and this one it taking place in the same thread.


Maybe it's time for another swing at the "does X affect tone" or "who hates Heritage headstocks" horse.

:agree
I've been hanging out a bit in the new "Boutique Gear Talk" forum. There are some people over there who many of us have come to love on this thread. I'm hoping some new topics will emerge to keep me interested. So far, so good.

[wishkahdaddy]

What was the final verdict regarding how the shim got in the guitar? Did anyone ever admit to doing it?