I don't get this RAT cloning nonsense...

[V-man]

3 years ago, maybe it made some sense when your choice was $$$ vintage or some import that was a RINO (RAT In Name Only).

What I don't get is talk about these mock boxes today. You have the opportunity to get the real deal MIA Whiteface Reissue for about $30 more or less than what these huxters are shilling theirs.

I get the DIY kits and some hypothetical pedal that picks up the LM 308 and continues where the RAT left off, but the clones... today... WHY?

[Scott Peterson]

$$$

[King Rat]

why do you feel that peoples actions need to make sense to you???

[wundergussy]

Well, many of the (made in America as well) clones are actually cheaper than the WF rat reissue. Many have extra gain options that the reissue doesn't have (effectively making them totally different pedals should you switch to another option). Also, an LED is something many people want, as is a standard boss power jack, and a smaller enclosure. All makes sense to me!

[sutherland]

oh..but cloning Tube Screamers, that is okay....

[V-man]

Well, many of the (made in America as well) clones are actually cheaper than the WF rat reissue. Many have extra gain options that the reissue doesn't have (effectively making them totally different pedals should you switch to another option). Also, an LED is something many people want, as is a standard boss power jack, and a smaller enclosure. All makes sense to me!

This is an answer that I was looking for. I thought about the LED but dismissed it as important but not nec a game changer since you can mod one. A LED, Boss jack and different footprint OTOH seems like a logical alternative though.


oh..but cloning Tube Screamers, that is okay....

Wherever a thread arises, whenever a flame suit is donned, beware, he lurks around the corner ready to pounce...

It's Captain Irrelevance!



At what point did I say anything about Tubescreamers, much less state a position about them?

[wundergussy]

It's also worth noting that many of the Rat clones (Chupacabra, Rabbit, Black Plague, etc.) were out before the WF reissue. Many have now developed their own cult following, and it wouldn't make sense for a company to stop making a successful pedal when a reissue is, uh, issued. Just as there are many people who would prefer the straight-ahead reissue, there are many that see the clones as improvements, or were drawn to them based on positive reviews in their own right.

[VinceM]

It's also worth noting that many of the Rat clones (Chupacabra, Rabbit, Black Plague, etc.) were out before the WF reissue. Many have now developed their own cult following, and it wouldn't make sense for a company to stop making a successful pedal when a reissue is, uh, issued. Just as there are many people who would prefer the straight-ahead reissue, there are many that see the clones as improvements, or were drawn to them based on positive reviews in their own right.

+1 on this. I got my Black Plague after getting a Chinese Rat2 and even got it Keeley Modded but it still didn't sound anywhere near as good as my buddy's mid 90's Keeley Modded Rat2. I was so annoyed that I needed to search for a "good" Rat as opposed to the crappy ones that were out there. Then by coincidence I got on a CMATMODS tourbox which had a BP. It totally surprised me because it was just as good a Rat as my buddy's. It has its own voice - somewhat more open sounding than the older Rat. Maybe closer to the "true" vintage units, I don't know. But Rat all the way.

So for me, the BP ended my search for that perfect rat.

[lv]

For me, a 'regular' tone control is much more useful than the rat's filter control. I a/b'd a vintage and keeley modded rat to my chupa and simply liked the chupa better.

[itkindaworks]

...Wherever a thread arises, whenever a flame suit is donned, beware, he lurks around the corner ready to pounce...

It's Captain Irrelevance!



At what point did I say anything about Tubescreamers, much less state a position about them?

Zing!

I'd guess it is because they were out before the reissue, as stated earlier. Also, people don't always like to break out the vintage models.

[sutherland]

:cry:

[corbs]

:console

[Dinosaur Sr.]

I got a Brown Rabbit which I really like. I had a Rat back in the 80s that was my only pedal for years, but it got rusty and I tossed it in the trash thinking I could buy a new one--I figured out later that was a bad decision. Bought the Brown Rabbit to put an end to my self-recriminations. Once I got it, I figured out the Brown Rabbit is definitely not an exact Rat clone. I think it's 3 rat-mod sounds, but none seem to be stock rat. That said, I really like the Brown Rabbit--better than I remember liking the rat actually. Of course the self-recriminations continue.

[skip]

i have a killer rabbit-- it is a tubescreamer and a rat in one pedal-- oh boy

[lv]

i have a killer rabbit-- it is a tubescreamer and a rat in one pedal-- oh boy

did you make it? or is something like this available?

[Guitar Josh]

At what point did I say anything about Tubescreamers, much less state a position about them?

Since the argument would be EXACTLY THE SAME when applied to Tube Screamers, it's entirely relevant. It's actually incredibly obvious.

[diagrammatiks]

lm308s aren't exactly raining from the sky.

[nrandall85]

lm308s aren't exactly raining from the sky.

Though a guy can dream, right?

[guitargod2u]

whats the difference between the tone control one and filter control? I have a newer china made one that i think sounds great btw but i'm always looking to improve on my tone.

[coldfingaz]

To me the Rat proves that no pedal's circuits are sacred.

I completely agree it's ridiculous to buy a clone when you can get an original Rat from the 80's for about a hundred bucks. I just sold one (circa '86- '88) in the Emporium for less than that.

[frankencat]

...Wherever a thread arises, whenever a flame suit is donned, beware, he lurks around the corner ready to pounce...

It's Captain Irrelevance!

That made me laugh. :D

[jguitarnash]

$$$

Well said.

[Washburnmemphis]

Since the argument would be EXACTLY THE SAME when applied to Tube Screamers, it's entirely relevant. It's actually incredibly obvious.

+1. Well said.

[Xevamir]

Wherever a thread arises, whenever a flame suit is donned, beware, he lurks around the corner ready to pounce...

It's Captain Irrelevance!



At what point did I say anything about Tubescreamers, much less state a position about them?

Sheesh. Take the chip off your shoulder. It's not like you invented the thing.

[teleclem]

Since the argument would be EXACTLY THE SAME when applied to Tube Screamers, it's entirely relevant. It's actually incredibly obvious.

Very true

[fr8_trane]

lm308s aren't exactly raining from the sky.

Good because there are better sounding options. You guys really need to get over discontinued "MOJO" parts.

Try a TL070. With the right compensation cap it will be indistinguishable from the LM AND it will be amazingly less noisy.

Then of course there is BJF's take on the rat using a great sounding mosfet chip the CA3130EZ.

Both are superior to the original

[diagrammatiks]

Good because there are better sounding options. You guys really need to get over discontinued "MOJO" parts.

Try a TL070. With the right compensation cap it will be indistinguishable from the LM AND it will be amazingly less noisy.

Then of course there is BJF's take on the rat using a great sounding mosfet chip the CA3130EZ.

Both are superior to the original

eh. i've got a bunch of 308s.

[jguitarnash]

oh..but cloning Tube Screamers, that is okay....

LOL:roll:roll

[coldfingaz]

Good because there are better sounding options. You guys really need to get over discontinued "MOJO" parts.

Try a TL070. With the right compensation cap it will be indistinguishable from the LM AND it will be amazingly less noisy.

Then of course there is BJF's take on the rat using a great sounding mosfet chip the CA3130EZ.

Both are superior to the original



Wasn't this about RAT clones? To me, that implies copied circuitry... not anything that is different (whether superior or inferior) to the original.

I know for sure that BJF didn't set out to "clone" a Rat...

The only thing I question is why any folks pay $200 for a true Rat clone when they could have the real deal for less. Makes no sense to me... nor does the idea that it's OK to clone a Rat, but not a TS, Timmy, etc.

[orogeny]

Wasn't this about RAT clones? To me, that implies copied circuitry... not anything that is different (whether superior or inferior) to the original.

I know for sure that BJF didn't set out to "clone" a Rat...

The only thing I question is why any folks pay $200 for a true Rat clone when they could have the real deal for less. Makes no sense to me... nor does the idea that it's OK to clone a Rat, but not a TS, Timmy, etc.
cloned/modded. . . . they all get thrown around with relative and regular similarity.

agreed on the tl070 it really is much quieter.

[lv]

Good because there are better sounding options. You guys really need to get over discontinued "MOJO" parts.

Try a TL070. With the right compensation cap it will be indistinguishable from the LM AND it will be amazingly less noisy.

Then of course there is BJF's take on the rat using a great sounding mosfet chip the CA3130EZ.

Both are superior to the original

Do any of the Rat variants use the TL070?

Which BJF pedal are you referring to?

Thanks

[wundergussy]

As far as the "it's not OK to clone a RAT" thing, please remember that up until recently you couldn't get a RAT from Proco that was original spec. The clones hit the market to fill a need. Also, there are very few RAT clones that don't offer many different options; most bill themselves as a "take on the RAT design" rather than a straight-up clone. And again, I will repeat that things like an LED, Boss-style adapter, and smaller footprint make a difference. And something like the Black Plague is CHEAPER than a WH reissue. In fact, name one RAT clone that is JUST a clone of WF RAT, and doesn't have an LED, Boss-power, and a smaller footprint.

[whoismarykelly]

ProCo's rats take an obscure power adaptor and are difficult to mount to a pedalboard because of the large machine bolt holding the battery compartment closed. Thus the need for copies that solve these problems and expound upon the possibilities of the circuit.

[fr8_trane]

Do any of the Rat variants use the TL070?

Which BJF pedal are you referring to?

Thanks

None of the rat variants or clones use the TL070 that I am aware of - this is a DIY community upgrade. Small Bear used to stock them and may still.

The TL070 is too expensive (>$.25) for proco to use it. The new rats use an OP07 I believe which is a dirt cheap part. However the thin sound of the new units is not entirely because of this chip. It has more to do with the different value of the compensation cap which lets more treble through than the original rat. there may be some other circuit differences from the original as well. Sometimes these changes are done to minimize cost and sometimes... just because:dunno

The clones won't use it because they've spent so much time marketing the wonders of the LM308 that they can't use anything else for fear of heresy. It was the same deal for TS clones and the 4558 until some folks found out that there ARE many chips that sound great in that circuit not just the cheapest available part in 1979.

The 3130 is a drop in replacement for the LM308 just like the TL070 although you will need to mess with the compensation cap to get the sound where you want it.

BJF uses the CA3130 in the Dyna Red which is the pedal that the RAT wishes it was.

[cpricecpa]

What I don't get is talk about these mock boxes today. You have the opportunity to get the real deal MIA Whiteface Reissue for about $30 more or less than what these huxters are shilling theirs.

Who are the mock box makers? Who are the huxters? Name names.

[lv]

None of the rat variants or clones use the TL070 that I am aware of - this is a DIY community upgrade. Small Bear used to stock them and may still.

The TL070 is too expensive (>$.25) for proco to use it. The new rats use an OP07 I believe which is a dirt cheap part. However the thin sound of the new units is not entirely because of this chip. It has more to do with the different value of the compensation cap which lets more treble through than the original rat. there may be some other circuit differences from the original as well. Sometimes these changes are done to minimize cost and sometimes... just because:dunno

The clones won't use it because they've spent so much time marketing the wonders of the LM308 that they can't use anything else for fear of heresy. It was the same deal for TS clones and the 4558 until some folks found out that there ARE many chips that sound great in that circuit not just the cheapest available part in 1979.

The 3130 is a drop in replacement for the LM308 just like the TL070 although you will need to mess with the compensation cap to get the sound where you want it.

BJF uses the CA3130 in the Dyna Red which is the pedal that the RAT wishes it was.


Thanks for the info FT. Love the Dyna Red (and Rats, and the variants). I sometimes wish the Dyna Red had more gain as I use low output single coils. The Lovekraft Chupcabra was my favorite of all these pedals.