On Vegetarianism

[schmidlin]

OK, I'm an omnivore.

And I don't like *pushing* any diets onto others, but I eat vegetarian/vegan often. You might too. Pita and hummus sometimes works for me for lunch/dinner, for example. SOMETIMES. Feta helps.

Not a call to a new world order: just shake it up.

Thoughts?

[donthasslethehoff]

I only eat fruit that dies of natural causes

[schmidlin]

I only eat fruit that dies of natural causes
Vey helpful.

[chrisjw5]

Thoughts?

I wish I could. I had such bad experiences with veggies as a kid (sitting at a table for hours, being forced to eat them - and kids puke when forced) that I've developed an aversion to them.

Other than lettuce, my joke is that "I don't like how green tastes".

So much of the healthy veggie stuff either looks or smells gross to me. I know it's a horrible excuse, but I literally feel ill around a lot of it.

And NotDogs and Tofurkey are just awful.

Hints and help are appreciated, because I really would like to break it, but at 40, it's hard.

[walterw]

i eat meat, but strictly on moral grounds.

[jimshine]

My palate is changing. While I am not liking more varieties of vegetables, I find myself having to eat more of the dozen or so I do like. I never liked seafood, about 15 years ago pork started tasting gross. I can't even stand the scent of milk now, I have to drink soy. Beef is starting to taste funky. Even great steaks are starting to get a sort of gamey flavor. Chicken is about the only meat I crave.

[Cream]

I'm on the red meat only diet -- I'm busy writing a book about it.

[2leod]

Hints and help are appreciated, because I really would like to break it, but at 40, it's hard.I think roasting vegetables (especially over some flames) really makes them taste so much better - the caramelization of the sugars and the charring of the surface = yum! The other way is to stir fry - start with the harder veggies and finish with a quick toss of the leafy ones and the ones you want to stay crunchy with good seasoning to bring out the best of the flavours.

[Cream]

Hints and help are appreciated, because I really would like to break it, but at 40, it's hard.I had a similar experience with sweet potatoes as a kid.

For starters, get some ranch dip and some baby carrots. Steam some broccoli and slather it in cheese. Stir fry is another good suggestion by 2leod. These are all "fun" ways to eat veggies and in no way should remind you of your bad childhood experiences.

Do you like mashed potatoes and gravy? I think they're a pretty harmless and good tasting veggie. If you can work yourself up to that, you should be good. Once you get that, just take a fork of broccoli, sprouts, asparagus, carrots, whatever and dunk it in mashed potatoes and gravy. Yum.

[Jules]

I eat meat less than I used to - used to eat it twice a day but now I probably eat it once every other day. Fresh pasta with artichokes, olives and capers all drizzled with olive oil is good. Mushroom and potato curry with wholemeal pita is great. I do feel a bit healthier having cut down on red meat as my digestion used to be a bit sluggish but I would struggle with being a vegetarian. Had roast chicken for Sunday lunch and it was so damn tasty - it was free range though.

[mralmostpopular]

So much of the healthy veggie stuff either looks or smells gross to me. I know it's a horrible excuse, but I literally feel ill around a lot of it.

Why would you think that's a horrible excuse? If you don't like it, you don't like it.



For starters, get some ranch dip and some baby carrots. Steam some broccoli and slather it in cheese. Stir fry is another good suggestion by 2leod. These are all "fun" ways to eat veggies and in no way should remind you of your bad childhood experiences.

Do you like mashed potatoes and gravy? I think they're a pretty harmless and good tasting veggie. If you can work yourself up to that, you should be good. Once you get that, just take a fork of broccoli, sprouts, asparagus, carrots, whatever and dunk it in mashed potatoes and gravy. Yum.

I think all of what you just said kind of defeats one of the biggest claims of a vegetarian diet, which is that it's supposedly healthier. Slathering something in cheese or gravy kind of counteracts the healthiness of the veggies. I'd be like saying that potato chips are healthy because they're potatoes. That being said, I am in no way shape or form a vegetarian, or a health-nut, so your method sounds pretty tastey to me. :p

[Brian D]

OK, I'm an omnivore.

And I don't like *pushing* any diets onto others, but I eat vegetarian/vegan often. You might too. Pita and hummus sometimes works for me for lunch/dinner, for example. SOMETIMES. Feta helps.

Not a call to a new world order: just shake it up.

Thoughts?Early humans ate a wide variety of food, depending on the season and/or their geographic location. In my opinion, variety is healthy and good. Anything eaten in excess will eventually have a detrimental effect.

[xroads]

Early humans ate a wide variety of food, depending on the season and/or their geographic location. In my opinion, variety is healthy and good. Anything eaten in excess will eventually have a detrimental effect.

My advice as well; and to add: nowadays lots of foods are processed, which takes away lots of healthy ingredients.

[The Golden Boy]

I enjoy gluttonous servings of meat.

I also enjoy wonderful vegetables.

Some I like, some I don't like.

I can completely understand someone not wanting to eat meat, or pork or whatever on whatever grounds they choose. I don't understand the "I don't like green" thought.

Chrisjw5- what really started me on liking "vegetables" was seriously lettuce on burgers. A couple of nice chunks of lettuce on a burger or a chicken sandwich- gets the crunchy vegetableness in- but not a bland cooked out mush... My wife also got these kind of hot dog sausage things that I was actually surprised that were meat-less. I thought they were like chicken-sausage.... They were good regarless of being meat-free.

[EricPeterson]

I think roasting vegetables (especially over some flames) really makes them taste so much better - the caramelization of the sugars and the charring of the surface = yum! The other way is to stir fry - start with the harder veggies and finish with a quick toss of the leafy ones and the ones you want to stay crunchy with good seasoning to bring out the best of the flavours.

Roasting is where it is at. Veggies come alive when roasted.

[travisvwright]

Slathering something in cheese or gravy kind of counteracts the healthiness of the veggies. Beta-carotene can only be absorbed when bound with fat. Many vegtables are less healthy* raw (healthy from a nutrient perspective, if you consider health to equal low calorie go eat two twinkies and nothing else a day and call yourself healthy).

[travisvwright]

Other than lettuce, my joke is that "I don't like how green tastes".Ha, I say, I don't eat "garnish".

[jaycee]

Grilled in olive oil with some seasonings....YUM!

[Structo]

I wish I could. I had such bad experiences with veggies as a kid (sitting at a table for hours, being forced to eat them - and kids puke when forced) that I've developed an aversion to them.

Other than lettuce, my joke is that "I don't like how green tastes".

So much of the healthy veggie stuff either looks or smells gross to me. I know it's a horrible excuse, but I literally feel ill around a lot of it.

And NotDogs and Tofurkey are just awful.

Hints and help are appreciated, because I really would like to break it, but at 40, it's hard.
Man did we grow up in the same house?

My sister and I weren't really picky eaters but we didn't like a lot of the stuff my mother made.
My mom and dad grew up during the great depression so they had to live on less.
They would eat terrible stuff like cow brains and eggs, liver, cow heart, etc.
Not all the time mind you but often enough to make us cringe.
If there was a terrible smell when we got home from school we knew we were in for it.

When I threw up at the dinner table when mom plopped down the large beef heart with the veins hanging off of it was the last straw, they never did that again.
No more brains and other offal meats. (organ meats)

If my sis and I were picking at our plates mom would set the kitchen timer for 10 minutes.
If we hadn't cleaned our plates by then, off to bed, lights out.

Some would say that boarders on abuse nowadays.
That kind of stuff can traumatize you later in life, you may not even be aware of it.
But I learned to like a lot of the vegetables that I didn't like as a kid.
Brocolli, brussel sprouts, peas, etc.
The one thing I still can't stand is plain cooked carrots.
If they are in a stew or something that is OK but just boiled carrots make me hurl.

[Cream]

Slathering something in cheese or gravy kind of counteracts the healthiness of the veggies.First, cheese is still a dairy product -- far from the salt, oils and artificial preservatives on potato chips. Secondly, the man said he rarely if ever eats vegetables. Thus, eating veggies in "fun" ways is still healthier than not eating them at all.

[dohootowl]

I think roasting vegetables (especially over some flames) really makes them taste so much better - the caramelization of the sugars and the charring of the surface = yum! The other way is to stir fry - start with the harder veggies and finish with a quick toss of the leafy ones and the ones you want to stay crunchy with good seasoning to bring out the best of the flavours.

I agree on the roasting! I'm a meat-eater, but I try to get plenty of vegetables and usually only eat meat about once a day.

[Blauserk]

No one can beat me for early aversion to vegetables and fruits. I basically lived off bread and meat and sometimes corn until my mid-20s, when I started working veggies in. My tastes have changed over time, particularly in my late 30s. Now I affirmatively like stuff I used to think was inedible, like brussells sprouts and broccoli and -- great when roasted -- cauliflower.

No point in gagging down green beans (for example), if you can't stand them. Just eat a variety of stuff and find out what floats your boat, and every few years, try the stuff again with an open mind. You might be surprised what you find that you like.

[Marcfordsfuzz513]

If it comes from earth, its good to eat. I'm slowly weening my self off processed foods as much as I can. Its tough to eat an orange when you can eat a poptart, or a bag of chips.

[MikeSRV69]

I, like some here, am an omnivore and eat many different kinds of food, including lots of vegetables. My wife, on the other hand, is a veggie-phobe like many here and has pretty much lived on meat, potatoes, and processed food for the last 25 years, with terrible results to her overall health. She is pre-diabetic now, going to weekly classes to prevent it, and has to face the fact that she cannot eat like that anymore if she wants to stay alive. On the other hand, I just went through major surgery (total hip replacement) and a big health screening after not going to the doctor for 20 or more years. I passed every test with flying colors, even though I have lived the rock and roll lifestyle most of my life. They tell me a lot of it is due to the fact that my diet has always been pretty good. I eat some crap but also a lot of healthy things, where the beef and spud diet has pretty much wrecked my wife. You non-veg guys can say all the cute catch phrases about not 'liking how green tastes' or whatever, but your body needs more than meat. I hope you don't end up like my wife. Peace.

[chrisjw5]

Why would you think that's a horrible excuse? If you don't like it, you don't like it.

Because I should eat it. Because I'm 40 and could stand to drop 25. Because I don't want to be that guy who drops dead at 49 and his friends all stand around feeling bad after the funeral, eating a salad.

Chrisjw5- what really started me on liking "vegetables" was seriously lettuce on burgers.

I'm good with lettuce. I LOVE a Caesar salad. Regular salads, with that other stuff? Not so much. And forget field greens. That's not food, it's what food eats.

The only real answer is to bite the bullet. Or the broccoli, as it were.

[paranoid70]

I am not a vegetarian, but I eat a lot of vegetables. Every week I go to the farmers market and load up on broccoli, cauliflower, squash, zucchini, brussel sprouts,... and we eat them every night. I still like chicken and beef and stuff, but I think it is really important to consume as much fruits and vegetables as possible. Meat, potatoes and dairy don't provide you much dietary fiber and many other essential vitamins.

And yes veggies on the grill taste great. Try BBQing some squash with a little olive oil and garlic. Awesome.

[Fred Farkus]

I love veggie pizza and veggie omelets. Eat a lot of fresh veggies, stir fry, grilled etc as a normal part of my diet. Won't be giving up meat but love veggies and fruit. Ate a tomato sandwich Saturday night and it was awesome.

And yes veggies on the grill taste great. Try BBQing some squash with a little olive oil and garlic. Awesome.

Yup. Good stuff. I throw broccoli, onions, mushrooms on my fancy-schmancy grilling pan, spray on some pam and add salt, pepper, and garlic powder- and grill right along with the meat or fish. Good, good stuff...

[stratovarius]

Early humans ate a wide variety of food, depending on the season and/or their geographic location. In my opinion, variety is healthy and good.

I am not sure what we are supposed to conclude from this "paleo" perspective. Do we actually have evidence that these people lived long lives free from disease? Survival of the species is certainly desirable, but does that mean that this is the optimum dieat for long term health of an individual?

[Stevil]

Roasting is where it is at. Veggies come alive when roasted.

+1
check the Harvard Food pyramid
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/images/PyramidWebSmall.jpg

[Brian D]

I am not sure what we are supposed to conclude from this "paleo" perspective. Do we actually have evidence that these people lived long lives free from disease? Survival of the species is certainly desirable, but does that mean that this is the optimum dieat for long term health of an individual?I wasn't trying to make this a "paleo" discussion, but I suppose I did just that by using the words "early man" and talking about how our bodies developed. There are many websites that discuss such things online, both pro and con, and I didn't intend to bring that into this thread.

If I were to answer your question, however, I'd simply say this: Lifespan discrepancies probably have a lot more to do with quality of health care and overall lifestyle (reliable access to food, not having to climb cliffs and run from tigers, etc.) than the actual make-up of our modern diet. One thing that is often overlooked is that average lifespan is an average, so infant mortality skews the numbers quite a bit. I'm sure they had disease, but they were different diseases (for the most part) than the ones that plague us today. If anything, we've replaced earlier untreatable diseases with others brought on by a modern diet and lifestyle (along with health care improvements).

As far as the "paleo" diet concept goes, for me it does make sense on an evolutionary and genetic level. Our bodies developed over millions of years to process food the way we used to eat. It's only been the last few thousand years that we've had agriculture grains and cooking techniques to make them (and other foods) edible when they previously weren't. This doesn't necessarily mean that our bodies can't process them, but they are recent (in evolutionary terms) additions to our diet. Cooking food is good for many reasons, but when it's needed to actually make the particular type of food edible by the human body you have to wonder if we should be making it the bulk of our diet.

But again, I wasn't trying to start a "paleo" discussion. I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, variety is the spice of life and moderation is key to health and happiness.

[stratovarius]

I didn't really want to get into a "paleo" discussion, either, but I don't really think the popular conception of early man really takes the long view. We are vertebrates first, mammals next, then primates after that. Mammals have been hugely successful, able to adapt to a wide variety of habitats, diets and survival strategies. We have all of that in our heritage, but that is not to say that adaptations don't fade away over time.

Undoubtedly, primates are able to adapt to various diets, but I have yet to hear of any evidence that the greater part of primate evolution has been based upon a heavy meat diet. The anatomy and physiology of primates doesn't appear to be well suited for that. It could very well be that a meat based diet helped early man to survive or even leap ahead, but man is still a primate and a hundred thousand years isn't enough to radically change that.

[Brian D]

Undoubtedly, primates are able to adapt to various diets, but I have yet to hear of any evidence that the greater part of primate evolution has been based upon a heavy meat diet.Speaking only for myself, I'm not advocating a heavy meat diet. I'm also not advocating a heavy vegetable diet. I'm advocating a balanced diet. The OP mentioned eating completely vegetarian meals from time to time, indicating that he found it to be uncommon for many people. Personally, I think it's great. It's ridiculous to think that every meal needs to include meat. But, in my opinion, eating only vegetables all the time is simply another extreme. Again, I'm all about moderation and balance.

As far as paleo diets go, most do suggest eating meat -- certain types, in particular, and perhaps in quantities that modern dietary science feels is detrimental. Personally, I think the main problem with meat consumption today is the way we process it (from feed to finish), the combinations of foods we typically consume along with it (starchy carbs, etc.), and our overall lack of exercise. But regardless, paleo diets also advocate large quantities of many different veggies, nuts, tubers, etc.

As far as primate evolution being based upon meat consumption, I recently read a legitimate scientific article that promoted the idea that in fact this very thing was what allowed our brains to develop the way they did. I can't find the link at the moment, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. It's only one opinion, but I found it interesting and relevant to that particular statement of yours.

I also think that sitting down to a large meal with a wide variety of foods being consumed at once is probably not the most healthy way to eat. Animals (and primates) don't eat that way -- even those with a varied diet. Human foragers most likely ate on the go... some termites here, some tubers there, some meat when they could find it, etc. Sure, they might make a large animal kill and bring it back to the tribe, but a large part of their diet was probably individual types of foods being consumed alone at different intervals throughout the day. I think this is probably a healthier way to eat, in the long run. Again -- just my opinion.

[schmidlin]

I, for one, am surprised how many of you are allergic to veggies. Is this a musician/creative thing? Seems counter-intuitive.

[stratovarius]

But, in my opinion, eating only vegetables all the time is simply another extreme. Again, I'm all about moderation and balance.

Relative terms like "moderation" and "balance" are open to interpretation and the majority of people will simply assume this is an affirmation that they are already doing what is "reasonable".

I can understand that a vegetarian might appear extreme in this particular culture because it is certainly far from the norm, but when the norm has been so clearly shown to be deleterious to health this really doesn't mean much.

[shane88]

i eat meat, but strictly on moral grounds.
me 2 ..... i was a vego in my earlier pc life and came to realize it's not 4 me and it's not 'our' heritage - we are supposed to eat meat

[Loop-Master]

I believe I could swing either way. I literally like just about any food as long as it is either fully cooked and/or fresh, high quality etc..

[Brian D]

Relative terms like "moderation" and "balance" are open to interpretation and the majority of people will simply assume this is an affirmation that they are already doing what is "reasonable".

I can understand that a vegetarian might appear extreme in this particular culture because it is certainly far from the norm, but when the norm has been so clearly shown to be deleterious to health this really doesn't mean much.I agree 100% about the way people will use definitions of "moderation", "balance", and "reasonable" to justify their beliefs. That includes myself. And even though I may think that a diet of only vegetables technically meets the definition of an "extreme" diet, I don't mean to imply that I think there is something wrong with people who choose to be vegetarians or that they are any worse off than those who choose to follow many other diets. They are probably better off than most, actually. My personal concept of a balanced diet is just my opinion, based on my own casual research and philosophical beliefs. I hope it is clear that I don't necessarily agree with what is considered a "normal" diet these days, either.

[JoeB63]

When it comes to eating/nutrition, we're all guessing -- and literally betting our lives on the decisions we make.

You can find articles and research, and critiques of research supporting or refuting any style of eating you wish. Pick the one you want and take your chances.

Me, I'm guessing that processed food is bad for me and that empty calories (mostly added sugar) is not a good thing to eat, so I avoid eating those things.

[wilblee]

I like vegetables. I like meat. I don't insist on either for a given meal, though I prefer both to be on the plate/in the bowl.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that tastes better than a perfectly cooked steak. Except maybe bacon.

[wilblee]

When it comes to eating/nutrition, we're all guessing -- and literally betting our lives on the decisions we make...

Well kinda. It doesn't matter what you eat. You're gonna die. Might as well enjoy your meals.

[walterw]

here's a good idea (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594201455/ref=rdr_ext_tmb): "eat food. not too much. mostly plants."

"food" means nothing that has ingredients you can't pronounce, and nothing that will magically last forever without spoiling.

"not too much" means not too much.

"mostly plants" means don't be a vegan nazi, just eat more veggies and less meat.

sounds good to me (now if i can only do it!)

[hellbender]

I can tell you one thing for sure.

We get 2-3X the protein our bodies can use with our typical western diet.