Schaller, Sperzel quality control... declining? Tuner talk.

[shredmiyagi]

Long time reader, not frequent poster. This post is both for curiosity's sake and help finding tuners... I AM debating on what tuners to get for my Strat (I recently picked up a very nice playing ESP 48th Street NYC Custom guitar, prob from early 90s, used). Stock, it has what seem to be Schaller-fitting "Made In Japan" tuner gears; they are very low ratio and terrible at keeping tune... the screw holes are at 3:00 as opposed to the usual Gotoh, Planet Wave, newer Schaller, etc. 45 degree angle.

Well, it seems no one makes locking tuners that fit the 3:00 screw.. besides for these Schallers, which seem impossible to order and unavailable:

http://guitar-machine-heads.com/hp135056/Artikel-Liste.htm?ITServ=C3ea72965X132e59c5f07X76a5

I'm not too opposed to drilling new holes, but I've had mixed experience with various tuners over the years.. and simply don't know what I like beside the amazing yet expensive Gotoh Delta series.

1. My Musicman Axis Sport from '99 has the custom Schallers for MM. I've always gone crazy with the trem, EVH-style, and it never got out of tune. If I had to guess, it's a 14:1 ratio. I've never had intonation or tuning issues of any kind with this guitar. I'm fairly certain these are different than retail locking Schallers.

2. Have a mid-80s MIJ Squier that always had slight tuning instability. Had stock Gotoh's originally which gave me trouble tuning and keeping tune. So I tried Stewmac's Gotoh 510 Mini Locking tuners. Apparently an 18:1 ratio. IMO, they didn't get the job done. After a bunch of tweaking, adjusting, set-ups, nut replacement I was convinced it might just be the guitar, the neck, saddles, etc. The reviews for these were high and favorable, so I sided with the tuner. I recently spilled $180 on the Delta Series 510 antique chrome set by Gotoh.. very hard to find other than thru Allparts and special orders. These immediately did the trick. My Squier stays in tune as well as any other guitar. Not to mention they look awesome, and the gears feel VERY smooth. However, they are falsely listed as 21:1 ratio on all the websites. I have learned that Gotoh does NOT make a 21:1 ratio for 6-inline tuners- only 3/3. They are 18:1, but in my experience, much smoother than the Stewmac, similar looking tuner. This is the best tuner I've ever had in my life. My only dislike, is the obvious price ($180 is extreme for a gears, they're half the value of my guitar), and the magnum top-locking/coin mechanism is not practical in a live setting, however, it does minimize the weight and size of your gear w/o the locking wheel underneath.

3. Got Fender Schallers chrome brushed locking "Made In Germany" gears for one of my MIM Strats earlier this year.. I had a set-up, took in mind the staggered heights.. It was easy to change strings, but it never stayed in tune. I couldn't believe it. I ended up selling that guitar anyway, but I'm reluctant to buy those again.

4. Had Sperzels on an ESP Eclipse and Jackson before. My Jackson worked out great (blocked Floyd trem, removed locking nut), my ESP was unreliable. Seemed like it was always a struggle to reach that perfect cent. I realize high-end Carvins and Suhr use Sperzel, wonderful instruments in my experience, so I wonder if it was more-so my ESP.

To come back to my ESP Strat/Schaller predicament.. I have one older guy at my local shop rant about the Schaller M6 machines, non-locking. Claims they always were and will be some of the best tuners even against newer locking designs, at a great deal. Meanwhile, another guy starts saying how Schaller in the last few years has been a disaster as Mr. Schaller himself passed away and the company hasn't been the same. I've also read lots of mixed reviews.

I'm curious on everyone's take, especially guitar builders.. Are Sperzel, Schaller, obv. Grover is often ragged on.. has the quality of them declined, or were they always overrated? ;) I'm thinking of just getting the M6's and saving some dough and time drilling since this isn't gonna be my main guitar anyway (my Squier JP Tele is magic), but I have reservations about spending money even on them if it's gonna be a hit-or-miss product. Kind of a toss-up between the M6s and Sperzels.

[shredmiyagi]

BTW, here's the Gotoh Delta locking set I'm ranting about: http://www.allparts.com/Gotoh-510-6-in-line-Antique-Chrome-Locking-Tuners-p/tk-7268-010.htm

I got them at $180 on ebay, but this is the model. Such a great set of tuners. They're sleek, light, vintage chrome finish with black Delta logo, ultra-tight locking mechanism, and the gears are ridiculously precise. I can't believe how much it improved my old Squier Tele. I'd want these on my high-end, custom instrument.

[bluesjunior]

When I built my partscaster around a decade ago I checked out all the available tuners and ended up going non traditional and put in a set of mini Grovers kidney button tuners. Not once have I ever regretted it, once new strings are properly stretched in it just doesn't go out of tune through playing at all, even with big bends and normal whammy bar use. Occasionally the G will go sharp after shaking the whammy but a quick tap on the bar corrects that. Great tuners and good VFM.

[Eagle1]

Grover ,Schaller and to a less extent Sperzel are all worse today than 20 years ago.
In contrast the OEM tuners that are also sold blank are now as good.
If you want the best these days you should take a look at Gotoh.

[Flyin' Brian]

Based on the recommendation of two of our trusted guitar gurus here; Jim Soloway and John Suhr, I just ordered a set of Hipshot locking tuners. I'll post my impressions when I use them for a while.

[RussB]

Tuning issues and seldom the result of "bad tuners"

Properly cut nut, and setting the trem system correctly are where you want to look

[JFD58]

^ Oft not mentioned for 6 string guitar tuners is Hipshot, usa made still I believe. Anyway... as above IMO - poor quality Tremolo springs, regular use of tremolo that may be poor quality - to me tremolo systems are just too fraught mechanically to be worth the bother, best Bigsby maybe sort of worth it. I play fixed bridge instruments and have zero 'tuner' issues. Also unstable atmo environment will move things I/O. And why use lockers anyway? Good string tying works better for me, even on my one 70's Strat back in late 70's-80's, than dependence on the 'locking' mech's.

I have 2 sets Grover - roto and 6 i/l mini, 3 sets Schaller - vintage roto style, Ovation nylon housing style, and 3x3 mini, 1 Gotoh - cheaper LMI oem = xcllnt, and chinese/korea/etc Ping from Martin kit. All stay in tune no problem- even the old hi-miles Schaller mini I bought used at eBay

Lockers still need many wraps imo to have a chance like any winch. Doubly so with hard smooth surfaces of metals, and I think they are a waste and give a sense of false security. But just my opin:BluesBros

[candid_x]

Based on the recommendation of two of our trusted guitar gurus here; Jim Soloway and John Suhr, I just ordered a set of Hipshot locking tuners. I'll post my impressions when I use them for a while.

Hipshot appears to be made by Schaller, both marketed under the same brand - http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/20/002/560/DV030_Jpg_BrandLogo_2327_hipshot.jpg

http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/210/742/DV016_Jpg_Large_360821.375_chrome.jpg

Have to admit to liking this trimmed down version more than the usual Schaller locking tuners. Wonder if the gears are different, or if both are cast.
http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/211/566/DV016_Jpg_Large_363036.375_chrome.jpg

http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/19/001/211/566/DV020_Jpg_Jumbo_363036.375_chrome.jpg

[candid_x]

Will that Hipshot 6GLO retrofit into a standard Schaller hole? Require extra drilling?

[ClassTone]

I have the Gotoh 510's on my hardtail t style and LOVE them!

[walterw]

...they are very low ratio and terrible at keeping tune...

Tuning issues are seldom the result of "bad tuners"

+1

old-school PRS tuners were very low-ratio and worked great, because the tuner is never the problem unless it's defective (as long as you start below and tune up to the pitch). it's literally impossible to move a worm gear by force on the other gear; it just won't happen.

tuning issues are all about the nut, sometimes the bridge, and mostly the setup.

[walterw]

Hipshot appears to be made by Schaller, both marketed under the same brand - http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/20/002/560/DV030_Jpg_BrandLogo_2327_hipshot.jpg

http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/210/742/DV016_Jpg_Large_360821.375_chrome.jpg
http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/19/001/211/566/DV020_Jpg_Jumbo_363036.375_chrome.jpg
that D-tuner is just the hipshot mechanism built onto to whatever tuner it's used on; hipshot has them for gotoh, grover and other brands, too.
Have to admit to liking this trimmed down version more than the usual Schaller locking tuners. Wonder if the gears are different, or if both are cast.
http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/211/566/DV016_Jpg_Large_363036.375_chrome.jpg
http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/19/001/211/566/DV020_Jpg_Jumbo_363036.375_chrome.jpg
apparently suhr has gone to these hipshot keys, just with different buttons on them (i don't blame him, that's one ugly tuner button); this speaks well of the key, at least.

[MBP]

The Gotoh 510s are really good tuners. That is what I use.

I personally believe that even the standard Gotohs are better than Schaller, Grover etc.

I have not built with hipshot but have seen them and doubt I would change from Gotoh 510.

[RedRocketCustoms]

+1 on the Hipshots, I've tried almost all the tuner makes out there and Hipshot are far and away the smoothest and best made that I have found, their finish is also impeccable. I got away from Sperzels after I noticed the chrome plating was sub par on a few sets I bought. They have lots of cool button choices plus they are made to order in upstate New York and their customer service is amazing. Good stuff! (and no, I'm not a paid endorser, just think they're great)

[Structo]

I put a set of Gotohs on my Tele that look like the standard inline Klusons but they have staggered posts so no string tree.

Very stable and look good tool.
And lighter than any of those locking tuners if weight is a concern.

[mellecaster]

Having been around this stuff for over 40 yrs...I have Yet to be impressed

with ANY Tuner Schaller had a Hand in Designing or Selling...but that's just Me ?

[candid_x]

I just threw coolness to the wind and ordered a set of retrofit Schaller/Fender (staggered) locking tuners for an American Tele Special, reasons being: convenience, satisfaction with their products in the past, and the fact that I'm not going for some authentic 50-60's vibe. Actually if anything it's a 70's wannabe Tele, which is funny since I hated every 70's electric guitar I've owned. All that aside, it plays and sounds... well, let's just say I dig it as is, including what cheap bits it includes, if that's the sound that comes out. Never liked Texas Special Strat pickups all that much, but I'm impressed with their Tele set in this light/middleweight low-ball but essential Tele.

I've had maybe 7 or 8 Schaller locking tuner sets on Music Man, G&L and Fender guitars, and never had a major issue, other than their weight on a particular lightweight hardtail Legacy made it neck-heavy.

I've had and have Sperzels, and like them for their one piece machined billet aluminum housing, hence their lighter weight, and mental satisfaction. I think their gear ratio is a bit too high, and they always feel grittier to me than Schallers.

For me, it's either Kluson (or similar quality with split shaft style) or locking. Each has their advantages. For this guitar, I'd have to do a lot of additional customizing to justify converting to Klusons. I'll just have to put up with fast string changes, and eliminating one more factor of many factors for keeping a guitar in tune. It's not always the nut or bridge. Locking up a string does just that.

Oh, one other factor came to play in ordering those Schallers, other than being drop-in parts, and having a finer gear ratio, and being smoother than Sperzels. I choose to use a round core brand of string, and how the wound strings are strung is important not to pull the core loose. Sperzel will literally cut off the string, even a hex-core wound string, if tightened too much. I've read this complaint from others here too. Have to go easy on that wheel. Schallers put less stress on the string and you can finger-tighten them without worry of manhandling them, not that it's necessary to! I've never snipped a string by over-tightening one, even when I was restringing the same string which was already crimped.

Each to their own.

[JBG]

+1 for the Gotoh 510 series tuners.

[EADGBE]

I'm curious on everyone's take...
I like Schaller and Grover the best. All kinds of things can make strings go out of tune. New strings stretching, old strings, humidity fluctuations, worn out tremolo, etc. Tuners can wear out or be damaged. Sometimes when you buy a used guitar the tuners may need replacing. I stay away from cheap tuners. I won't buy a guitar with cheap and or no name tuners. Because tuners are important.

[frankencat]

I have a few different sets of tuners and I haven't had any problems with the Ping made Fender Locking tuners.

[markszabo]

I have a set of Sperzels on my 1998 Parker Fly.

I purchased a set of them just last year to throw on a Korean Parker. They fit fine, work great, no complaints. Build quality seemed about the same; they actually felt a little tighter (probably because they're new).