Angel is a centerfold

[Doodad]

Found out yesterday that one of my daughter's childhood friends is now a porn star. :huh

She was a constant fixture at our house as was our daughter at theirs. Quite a shock to say the least. :omg

[goneracin]

let me be the first

:worthless

[Doodad]

Not gonna happen and it makes me sick just seeing them. I have no idea what her parents must be thinking.

[offbeat]

As a Dad, that would be an incredibly tough thing to handle if it was my daughter. Do you still have any contact with the girl's parents?

[Phoebe]

Not gonna happen and it makes me sick just seeing them. I have no idea what her parents must be thinking.

So I guess you looked!

[lhallam]

So I guess you looked!


LOL - :rotflmao

[Twangasaurus]

Firstly, it's easy to judge with this sort of thing. Keep an open mind.
Secondly, she possibly hasn't told her parents yet so I wouldn't go shooting your mouth off.

[bluesjuke]

Reminds me of an old girlfriend of my brothers, Angel, that did show up in a centerfold afterwards.

[6stringgrind]

Did you find out the hard way?

[newking70]

Did you find out the hard way?



hard :spit

[TC@Tyler]

This thread is worthless without pictures is right.....or......at least the name of this chick.

I'm sure she would appreciate the publicity!

[VicAjax]

Punky Meadows?

http://leatherrebel.jalbum.net/Leather%20Rebel%20Photo%20Album/Hard%20Rock/slides/angel-punky%20meadows.jpg

[Doodad]

As a Dad, that would be an incredibly tough thing to handle if it was my daughter. Do you still have any contact with the girl's parents?

No I don't. One of them lost a job and they moved some years back.

[Doodad]

So I guess you looked!

Well, yeah. I was kind of hoping my daughter was mistaken, but uh no.

[Polynitro]

at least shes a star. Could be way worse, like a porn extra. shes probably making good money and gets to choose the schlong.

[Doodad]

Firstly, it's easy to judge with this sort of thing. Keep an open mind.
Secondly, she possibly hasn't told her parents yet so I wouldn't go shooting your mouth off.

Not judging, just really kind of shocked. Go figure, the one I did assume would go this road or worse has grown to be a fine young lady.

No, even if we were still in contact I would not say a word.

[Muzzy]

What does your daughter think about it? Are they still friends?

[Flyin' Brian]

at least shes a star. Could be way worse, like a porn extra. shes probably making good money and gets to choose the schlong.

She could always just have been a fluffer.

And as far as judgment, because she chose this road doesn't exclude her from being a fine young lady. Sometimes we judge even when we don't realize it.

[Doodad]

What does your daughter think about it? Are they still friends?

She was pretty taken aback. We lost contact when they moved. My daughter was looking her up along with some other old friends and made the discovery.

[carbz]

Cha-Ching...$ What is her stage name? Ironically a good friend of mine is friends with Jenna Haze and he go's to a lot of the conventions. I went to one with him locally a few months back and It's a bizarre world to say the least but many of these girls in their early twenties are already millionares.

[Blue Tile Fever]

And here i thought this thread was gonna be about the J. Geils Band song

[tapeworm]

man you can't build up and not deliver like this! what is her name...? just want to make sure she isn't in my regular rotation!

[PAF]

man you can't build up and not deliver like this! what is her name...? just want to make sure she is in my regular rotation!

fixed that for ya ;)

[KeithC]

TGP is well known for flavor of the day and the make or break phenomenon when it comes to gear.

With a little push from TGP she could be a big star!

[wstsidela]

tojBadSr2zI

[Drew68]

I thought this thread was going to be about that very awesome J. Geils Band video that made my then 13-year old self extremely happy to have MTV back in 1982.

[Polynitro]

we just want a pic and a name so we can help the poor girl... wont someone think of teh children?

[tiktok]

Not gonna happen and it makes me sick just seeing them. I have no idea what her parents must be thinking.

Really depressing.

Maybe time for another "Bikinis!" or "Hot Chicks With Guitars!" thread to cheer everyone up?

[Doodad]

man you can't build up and not deliver like this! what is her name...? just want to make sure she isn't in my regular rotation!

Sorry I am not going there. I really am in shock as is our family. I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us. She was not the sharpest but a good kid overall.

[X - Road 28]

He's already said no several times folks, now quit salivating will you.

:drool

[Flyin' Brian]

Sorry I am not going there. I really am in shock as is our family. I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us. She was not the sharpest but a good kid overall.


You're not answering my question. What makes her not a good kid now?

[Doodad]

You're not answering my question. What makes her not a good kid now?

Sorry Brian I did not know you asked me a question. I just have to say that in my worldview that is not a vocation that I would like for anybody. Call me a prude.

I was remembering earlier about sitting on the back deck with her and my daughter watching bats in the evening and using the telescope to see Jupiter.

[mojocaster.com]

Angel's new line of work doesn't inherently make her a bad person. And the OP, of all people, should know who she really is, or at least was, based on all the interaction they had with her through the years...

[blood5150]

I was remembering earlier about sitting on the back deck with her and my daughter watching bats in the evening and using the telescope to see Jupiter.


I thought it was Uranus?

I keed, I keed!!!!!!!!

[PAF]

I thought it was Uranus?

I keed, I keed!!!!!!!!
:rotflmao

[FiestaRed]

How old was she when you saw her last? Was there a significant amount of time between then and now? Did something happen?

[Flyin' Brian]

Sorry Brian I did not know you asked me a question. I just have to say that in my worldview that is not a vocation that I would like for anybody. Call me a prude.

I was remembering earlier about sitting on the back deck with her and my daughter watching bats in the evening and using the telescope to see Jupiter.

Yeah I can see how it would be a surprise. It wouldn't be my choice of work for anyone I know either, but she still might be an OK kid. I'm not a prude and I know I'd be shocked as well, but she may go through this and come out the other side just fine. Then again if her worldview is different, who's to say that she's doing it wrong ... for herself? Big money can be tempting and maybe it's an outlet for her. When I was in the electronics business, I went to a CES show and sat and talked to long time star Nina Hartley for a while. She was pretty well spoken and seemed what we would term quite "normal".

[xjojox]

Angel's new line of work doesn't inherently make her a bad person. And the OP, of all people, should know who she really is, or at least was, based on all the interaction they had with her through the years...

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.

[Polynitro]

so porn star is the same as serial killer? That doesnt sound right, lol.

one kills people, the other shines thier knob. :huh

[Phoebe]

Bottom lining this whole dealio, is she hot to look at?

If yes, she might be serving the greater good.

[Brazen]

Might as well get over it because kids grow up.

[Flyin' Brian]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.

I have to question equating somebody in the adult film business to a serial killer or a thief. And quite frankly I believe that prostitution should be legal and I won't comment on Afghanistan because that's a discussion that doesn't belong here. And it's also a straw man argument.

[coldfingaz]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.



Christ almighty... judge much?

[Polynitro]

the only question now is should this girl be executed or life in jail?

[cvansickle]

I don't really think people "choose" a career (as an actor/actress anyway) in the porn industry. It's more a situation of "ended up in" or "found themselves in."

[mattmccloskey]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.

Porn and prostitution involve consenting adults. Theft and murder do not - pretty clear distinction. "Common Sense" is usually a euphemism for "my own bullshit opinion". I prefer REASON, which is actually far less common.

[CowTipton]

the only question now is should this girl be executed or life in jail?

A good spanking.

(sorry Doodad)

[EricPeterson]

What is funny to me is all the guys that will judge this girl for her choices, but yet will high five the guy that bangs a new chick every week, secretly wish they were a male porn star, and/or consume the pornography that these women make.

[A-Bone]

It does seem important to realize that every female porn performer is someone's daughter, sister, etc. This girl is no different.

[Brazen]

It does seem important to realize that every female porn performer is someone's daughter, sister, etc. This girl is no different.

Don't forget wife and girlfriend. ;)

[A-Bone]

Don't forget wife and girlfriend. ;)

That is a good point, also, or even mother.

[A-Bone]

I don't really think people "choose" a career (as an actor/actress anyway) in the porn industry. It's more a situation of "ended up in" or "found themselves in."

While it certainly is the case that some people kind of back into it, some people do indeed seek out the porn industry because they want to be a performer in it.

For some people do not have a problem with that line of work, and it can certainly be a way for someone with a high school education to make a good deal of money relatively quickly. It is clearly not an easy line of work, or suitable for all or even most people for a whole constellation of reasons. The typical newcomer in the industry does not last even a year.

I remember an interview with Nina Hartley from a few years ago where she said that it isn't as if women that do porn are typically choosing between that career and a career as a medical doctor or lawyer; rather, it is often looking at this line of work or something like a job at WalMart.

[SteveO]

While it certainly is the case that some people kind of back into it,

:crazyguy :spit

No punchline required...

[A-Bone]

:crazyguy :spit

No punchline required...

Please tip your waitress.

[SteveO]

Please tip your waitress.

Sorry man, I just couldn't help myself on that one. :)

[A-Bone]

Sorry man, I just couldn't help myself on that one. :)

Don't think I didn't notice it when I typed it.

[Midnight Lady]

I think that the comments regarding "would you choose this for your daughter or your wife" are hilarious. Since when would a daughter or a wife check with you before they begin a career that THEY want?

I would hope that if any of you found a daughter in this line of work that you would respect her choice while giving her a safety talk and encouraging her to use a false name. So what? It's a legal thing. No laws broken (hopefully). The fact that her body is being shown does not change her character.

Unless she hopes to be in a political field someday then who the heck cares?

To the OP, remember the girl you knew because she is the same girl inside that she was then. She will likely be fine and live a normal life once she has made some money. Most people can't work in this industry past 30 anyway. Too "old" for most watchers.

I would never encourage someone I cared about to do this but if they were bound and determined to do it anyway, then I would stand by them because it is THEIR choice, not yours.

And what of the college boys that work in the strip clubs aimed at females? What does that say about their moral character? Or is that different somehow.

[EricPeterson]

I wish Camille Paglia was a gear head, would be interesting to get her take on this thread.

[onemind]

Punky Meadows?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MDK4-ZCd6y8/ShAsxj7CPqI/AAAAAAAAAUQ/JKsrv_09pi0/s400/punky+meadows.jpg

In this pic he really does look more fluid than Jeff Beck

[DWB1960]

To the OP, remember the girl you knew because she is the same girl inside that she was then.

No one can know this. People change. Bottom line, nobody here should be making any assumptions unless they know this girl well in the current tense.

[bluesjuke]

I hope she finds her way to a better "career" or even no career, which to me would be better.

I hope she has family that will help her in this.

[Polynitro]

whos the guitarist thats married to a porn star? Hes in a butt rock band...cant remember, pretty popular. she was on one of those 'rockstar wives' shows....

[CowTipton]

whos the guitarist thats married to a porn star? Hes in a butt rock band...cant remember, pretty popular. she was on one of those 'rockstar wives' shows....

Evan Seinfeld

[big jilm]

Wow. No, if my daughter chose this line of work I would NOT have a 'safety talk' with her. I would flat out kidnap her and bring her home. Then I would take a good look at myself as a parent and wonder what I did wrong that put her into the porn industry.

[taez555]

This thread calls for some John Mayer....

rZLbUIa7exE

[Midnight Lady]

QUESTION FOR THE OP:


Did you ever say exactly what this girl is doing?

In your subject line you said "centerfold" whereas most of the comments seem to relate to someone who is in the porn industry as a movie star. There is a HUGE difference between these two lines of work.

I know a couple of ladies who did the photo thing when they were young. It is all very legit and has nothing to do with having sex with someone on the big screen. It is posing for a photo. Again - BIG difference.

Could you clarify the exact occupation of your daughter's childhood friend?

[5E3]

My concerns for the young woman in question (or any man/woman in this line of work) would be to avoid:

1) physical abuse
2) drug abuse
3) sexually transmitted diseases
4) jail/prison
5) psychological damage
6) an early death

[Polynitro]

thats true how do we know what porn is? "You know it when you see it" the supreme court insists:
:worthless

[Doodad]

QUESTION FOR THE OP:


Did you ever say exactly what this girl is doing?

In your subject line you said "centerfold" whereas most of the comments seem to relate to someone who is in the porn industry as a movie star. There is a HUGE difference between these two lines of work.

I know a couple of ladies who did the photo thing when they were young. It is all very legit and has nothing to do with having sex with someone on the big screen. It is posing for a photo. Again - BIG difference.

Could you clarify the exact occupation of your daughter's childhood friend?

Hey Pat. From the article I saw and the first page that popped up she is doing very raunchy porn and lots of it. No centerfold work; it was just a title for the thread. Any stills would be from film clips it would appear. I mean hundreds of titles and she is 21.

[CowTipton]

QUESTION FOR THE OP:


Did you ever say exactly what this girl is doing?

In your subject line you said "centerfold" whereas most of the comments seem to relate to someone who is in the porn industry as a movie star. There is a HUGE difference between these two lines of work.

I know a couple of ladies who did the photo thing when they were young. It is all very legit and has nothing to do with having sex with someone on the big screen. It is posing for a photo. Again - BIG difference.

Could you clarify the exact occupation of your daughter's childhood friend?


Not a J. Geils fan?

[tiktok]

My concerns for the young woman in question (or any man/woman in this line of work) would be to avoid:

1) physical abuse
2) drug abuse
3) sexually transmitted diseases
4) jail/prison
5) psychological damage
6) an early death

Yes, the life of a musician is fraught with peril.

Wait--what career path are we talking about?

[hellbender]

Go where the work is. Just be protected and know that those of weak moral character are the ones supporting this.

[urizen]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.

Jesus Christ, that's quite an agenda you managed to load into your $.02, AND you managed to cram in slippery slope, sweeping generalization, and straw man fallacies too:brick. The absolute cherry on top was the "Think about it", since it looks like "thinking" had nothing to do with "it".

[A-Bone]

Evan Seinfeld

Is Biohazard a butt rock band? I thought they were a metal band. Also, Tera Patrick and Seinfeld are no longer married.

Jonathan Davis from Korn is married to a former pornstar, but he is not a guitarist.

[DrSax]

hopefully she'll get out before she appears on this list:

http://thepinkcross.org/gallery/?g2_itemId=84

[MuseCafeChris]

Yes, the life of a musician is fraught with peril.

Wait--what career path are we talking about?

Professional bowler, I believe.

[MuseCafeChris]

Oh, and OP, I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this. You said she's a porn actress. So, I'm sure she's only acting in those photos you saw.

It's not like the people on CSI really see dead people all the time.

[A-Bone]

hopefully she'll get out before she appears on this list:

http://thepinkcross.org/gallery/?g2_itemId=84

Given that Lubben and co. will list the death of anyone even tangentially related to porn (and even those that die of natural causes and in car accidents), I would imagine that the only hope of not appearing on this list is living long enough that the organization no longer exists.

[xjojox]

Jesus Christ, that's quite an agenda you managed to load into your $.02, AND you managed to cram in slippery slope, sweeping generalization, and straw man fallacies too:brick. The absolute cherry on top was the "Think about it", since it looks like "thinking" had nothing to do with "it".

What I was asking people to think about was the concept of considering something immoral for themselves or loved ones but OK for someone else. I get torqued by folks who take those positions. There is an equivalence in terms of the moral cowardice between someone who is hawkish about a war but would never let their own child into harm's way, and someone whose knee-jerk response to the OP is "cool, post pics" but would never stomach their own loved ones doing these things.

I did not equate being a porn star with being a serial killer. Nor did I suggest that one leads to the other. My point was that immoral means different things to different people, and a whole lot of folks demonstrated that by taking the bait and flaming the post in a matter of minutes (which was my intention by the way). But all I did was group together, in ascending order, things that the rank and file of humanity would consider "immoral". The responses suggest that even the most libertarian among us have lines they won't cross.

But where are those lines? At what point is "not OK for my daughter but OK for someone else's" crossing the line from reasonably open-minded to moral cowardice? Some folks like football but would never let their sons do it for fear of injury. Some folks go to strip clubs but would never support their daughters dancing. Some folks visit prostitutes but would not be OK with the thought of their spouse or lover turning tricks. Some folks have sexual feelings for children but would fly into a murderous rage if someone molested their own child. And yes, some folks watch snuff films but would not personally kill another human being. There are folks at all of these levels who say "not OK for me but OK for someone else", which includes snuff films.

The OP was distraught that the little girl he knew had entered what he termed the porn industry (I presumed we're not talking about a few sexy modeling shots here, but rather the adult film industry). He's upset because he wouldn't want it for his own little girl. And he gets "show us pics".

The suggestion that the adult film industry is harmless and involves consenting adults demonstrates a profound ignorance of the industry by the way.

And I do agree that the fact that she's in this business doesn't necessarily mean she's a bad person. But in my view she's in a bad place. I have to wonder the circumstances that led her there. My heart breaks for her just as the OP's heart breaks for her.

[DrSax]

Given that Lubben and co. will list the death of anyone even tangentially related to porn (and even those that die of natural causes and in car accidents), I would imagine that the only hope of not appearing on this list is living long enough that the organization no longer exists.

It is dumb to list car accidents, but most of those died from either suicide or AIDS. And not sure what you mean by tangental, they all performed in porn. Also, I'm betting anything that that list is actually miniscule compared to the actual number of suicides/AIDS cases.

Are you seriously suggesting that the porn industry does not have a high rate of suicides/murders/AIDS/drug abuse when compared to almost any other line of work?

[urizen]

What I was asking people to think about was the concept of considering something immoral for themselves or loved ones but OK for someone else. I get torqued by folks who take those positions. There is an equivalence in terms of the moral cowardice between someone who is hawkish about a war but would never let their own child into harm's way, and someone whose knee-jerk response to the OP is "cool, post pics" but would never stomach their own loved ones doing these things.

I did not equate being a porn star with being a serial killer. Nor did I suggest that one leads to the other. My point was that immoral means different things to different people, and a whole lot of folks demonstrated that by taking the bait and flaming the post in a matter of minutes (which was my intention by the way). But all I did was group together, in ascending order, things that the rank and file of humanity would consider "immoral". The responses suggest that even the most libertarian among us have lines they won't cross.

But where are those lines? At what point is "not OK for my daughter but OK for someone else's" crossing the line from reasonably open-minded to moral cowardice? Some folks like football but would never let their sons do it for fear of injury. Some folks go to strip clubs but would never support their daughters dancing. Some folks visit prostitutes but would not be OK with the thought of their spouse or lover turning tricks. Some folks have sexual feelings for children but would fly into a murderous rage if someone molested their own child. And yes, some folks watch snuff films but would not personally kill another human being. There are folks at all of these levels who say "not OK for me but OK for someone else", which includes snuff films.

The OP was distraught that the little girl he knew had entered what he termed the porn industry (I presumed we're not talking about a few sexy modeling shots here, but rather the adult film industry). He's upset because he wouldn't want it for his own little girl. And he gets "show us pics".

The suggestion that the adult film industry is harmless and involves consenting adults demonstrates a profound ignorance of the industry by the way.

And I do agree that the fact that she's in this business doesn't necessarily mean she's a bad person. But in my view she's in a bad place. I have to wonder the circumstances that led her there. My heart breaks for her just as the OP's heart breaks for her.

I appreciate your adding this. It gave me more context for what I now see as my misapprehension of your initial post.

[coldfingaz]

The OP was distraught that the little girl he knew had entered what he termed the porn industry (I presumed we're not talking about a few sexy modeling shots here, but rather the adult film industry). He's upset because he wouldn't want it for his own little girl. And he gets "show us pics".


And, I'm sure he knew this would happen before he started the thread here... which I'm not excusing, but it is a fairly typical TGP response.

Your initial post was pure flame bait & of no value to the OP or anyone else. Any valid points you might have had got lost in the tone of it. Glad you got what you wanted out of the response to it, though.

Your second post was much better, but it doesn't make your initial post anymore thought provoking.

[A-Bone]

It is dumb to list car accidents, but most of those died from either suicide or AIDS. And not sure what you mean by tangental, they all performed in porn. Also, I'm betting anything that that list is actually miniscule compared to the actual number of suicides/AIDS cases.

Are you seriously suggesting that the porn industry does not have a high rate of suicides/murders/AIDS/drug abuse when compared to almost any other line of work?

It would be incredibly complicated to prove otherwise, given the size of and also what is often considered "the porn industry", but there is no evidence that the porn industry has a higher incidence of suicides, murders, AIDS-related fatalities or drug overdoses than other industries.

There was definitely a proliferation of AIDS-related fatalities in the gay porn industry in the 80s and early 90s, but this was not any larger proportionately than the casualties in the gay population generally at that time.

[morlll]

What is funny to me is all the guys that will judge this girl for her choices, but yet will high five the guy that bangs a new chick every week, secretly wish they were a male porn star, and/or consume the pornography that these women make.

:agree:agree:agree

[Polynitro]

Id bet that cops and doctors have more suicides (and PRSi)

[Cody]

So much judgment - not just in this thread, but throughout society.

If you think less of people in the adult industry, stop spanking your monkey to it.

[CowTipton]

Is Biohazard a butt rock band? I thought they were a metal band. Also, Tera Patrick and Seinfeld are no longer married.

Jonathan Davis from Korn is married to a former pornstar, but he is not a guitarist.


I don't even know wtf butt rock is to be honest.

Seinfeld is the only one I knew married to a porn star since they did that supergroup show on VH1.

[A-Bone]

I don't even know wtf butt rock is to be honest.

Seinfeld is the only one I knew married to a porn star since they did that supergroup show on VH1.

I do not know definitively, but according to the urban dictionary it is one word "buttrock"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=buttrock


1)A term to identify a band trademarked with cheap, unoriginal song lyrics; the vocalist hiding his lack of vocal talent by producing a deep and 'raspy' voice (i.e. Nickelback, Creed).

[mojocaster.com]

xjojox (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/member.php?u=69452), I wasn't going to respond, because frankly you closed that door. But then I never enjoyed being called a coward by an Internet tough guy/troll.

You did equate porn stars w/ serial killers. We didn't bring that up - you did.

As for the "Would you want your daughter to do this" argument, it simply has no basis. Here's why: it's not because I do not want my daughter to be involved in something that I am automatically going to blame those who made that choice. I don't know their history, context or anything else.

You want to throw the first stone, you go right ahead. But please don't feel the need to insult those who default to compassion and not judgmental mode.

As for would I send my kid to war, well, again it doesn't belong here, but I'll say this: I wore my country's uniform. I was deployed to a war zone. Were you?

But then again, according to you and your so-called logic, I *am* a coward, so what do I know?

[bigdaddy]

She could always just have been a fluffer.

And as far as judgment, because she chose this road doesn't exclude her from being a fine young lady. Sometimes we judge even when we don't realize it.


Whoa there. It most certainly does. While lady can mean any woman, it usually - and, especially when preceded by the word fine - refers to someone dignified and refined with a higher social standing. There's no way to look refined and dignified while you're getting tag teamed by three guys with cheesy mustaches.

[Flyin' Brian]

Whoa there. It most certainly does. While lady can mean any woman, it usually - and, especially when preceded by the word fine - refers to someone dignified and refined with a higher social standing. There's no way to look refined and dignified while you're getting tag teamed by three guys with cheesy mustaches.

LOL I think this is semantics. I'd guess that when watching her in her profession, many TGPers in the audience might say "Man she's fine!".
But my point was perhaps overstated, but making what is in fact a bad live decision doesn't make her a bad person, which is pretty much what I meant.

[Cody]

Whoa there. It most certainly does. While lady can mean any woman, it usually - and, especially when preceded by the word fine - refers to someone dignified and refined with a higher social standing. There's no way to look refined and dignified while you're getting tag teamed by three guys with cheesy mustaches.
Bullsh!t.

There's no way to look refined and dignified while doing the missionary in the privacy of your own home either... yet most everyone does it, with no detrimental effect upon their social standing.

[The Guy]

im confused. . . could someone please explain to me how sex is immoral? without that understanding, some of these posts mean nothing.

[mojocaster.com]

As George Carlin used to say... Sex is legal, selling is legal, why is selling sex not legal?

I'll tell you why, George: puritans. Case closed.

[Jahn]

Just FYI, on a purse and fashion forum somewhere, a bunch of wives are bemoaning the fact that the darling little boy that grew up with their son is now into sex, drugs and rock n' roll on the chicken wire circuit.

Where there is a busty babe, there is also a dude with a goatee and a pointy guitar. I for one wouldn't presume to be the gatekeeper for either profession.

[phoenix 7]

You should have banged her.


Wait...was that my outside voice?? No!!! That's wrong!!! I didn't mean that!!!

:hide2

[Flyin' Brian]

im confused. . . could someone please explain to me how sex is immoral? without that understanding, some of these posts mean nothing.

Great point. Showing body parts getting shot off and the resultant blood and gore is rated R. Showing people's bodies naked and having sex is X?

[A-Bone]

Where there is a busty babe, there is also a dude with a goatee and a pointy guitar.

Maybe someone in the buttrock scene?

[phoenix 7]

So much judgment - not just in this thread, but throughout society.

If you think less of people in the adult industry, stop spanking your monkey to it.

Word. :rotflmao

[michael.e]

And, I'm sure he knew this would happen before he started the thread here... which I'm not excusing, but it is a fairly typical TGP response.

Your initial post was pure flame bait & of no value to the OP or anyone else. Any valid points you might have had got lost in the tone of it. Glad you got what you wanted out of the response to it, though.

Your second post was much better, but it doesn't make your initial post anymore thought provoking.


I got the same message from his first and second posts. I knew clearly what he was saying.

No, I would not want my daughter, nor anybody else's daughter in that industry. Don't support it and I don't appreciate it, and it's societal undermining in any way.

[michael.e]

im confused. . . could someone please explain to me how sex is immoral? without that understanding, some of these posts mean nothing.

Context is everything.

[bigdaddy]

LOL I think this is semantics. I'd guess that when watching her in her profession, many TGPers in the audience might say "Man she's fine!".
But my point was perhaps overstated, but making what is in fact a bad live decision doesn't make her a bad person, which is pretty much what I meant.

Sorry, again, but making bad life choices is exactly what makes one a bad person. Your character is determined solely by your thoughts, words and actions. It is not some inherent, intangible trait.

I would agree with you that she is not beyond redemption. We are all broken in some way and none of us is beyond redemption.

[Cody]

Sorry, again, but making bad life choices is exactly what makes one a bad person. Your character is determined solely by your thoughts, words and actions. It is not some inherent, intangible trait.

I would agree with you that she is not beyond redemption. We are all broken in some way and none of us is beyond redemption.
I'd send you a gavel, but I suspect you already have one.

;)

[The Guy]

Context is everything.

so youre saying that you cant defend the position that "sex is immoral" so youre going to refer me to context? well, thats convenient. who determines what the appropriate context is? you? is sex immoral at dinner time? or with certain people? or in different positions? im just looking for a little clarity here.

[bigdaddy]

Why? Because I know what character is?

I'd send you a conviction, but you wouldn't know what it was.

I think we have a general consensus that a career in porn is a bad life decision.

[The Guy]

Sorry, again, but making bad life choices is exactly what makes one a bad person. Your character is determined solely by your thoughts, words and actions. It is not some inherent, intangible trait.

I would agree with you that she is not beyond redemption. We are all broken in some way and none of us is beyond redemption.

how is it a bad life choice if she likes it and makes a good living doing it?

[big jilm]

Good lord - if it isn't our choices that make us a good or bad person, what is?

Can we never judge anyone for anything? If, let's say, I believe that porn is immoral, and bad for society, is it a stretch for me to believe that a person who participates in this thing that is immoral and bad for society an immoral person?

You can certainly argue that porn is not immoral, and not bad for society if you like. That is a good discussion.

Maybe we all have a different definition of 'judgement' here. I think I judge people on their choices and their actions all the time - I judge myself the same way.

[Prerequisite]

Leave it to TGP to turn a thread into a character debate thread.

:facepalm

[Zilmo]

Leave it to TGP to turn a thread into a character debate thread.

:facepalm

Well, between the pervs and the do-gooders...

[michael.e]

so youre saying that you cant defend the position that "sex is immoral" so youre going to refer me to context? well, thats convenient. who determines what the appropriate context is? you? is sex immoral at dinner time? or with certain people? or in different positions? im just looking for a little clarity here.

What makes you think that the position cannot be defended? It is really much easier than you are making it. And, yes, I refer you to context, you make of it what you want.
Like I said earlier, I would not want my child doing that, it would rip me apart. What does that tell you, about this person regarding context. If you got that f-ing and making love are two different things, you got it right. You determine the context for yourself. Somebody has to take responsibility for your behavior, whatever it may be, it may as well be you.

[michael.e]

how is it a bad life choice if she likes it and makes a good living doing it?
Just because somebody likes what they do and makes money at it, does not make it a bad life choice? Whatever it may be?

This is certainly an interesting thread.

[michael.e]

Leave it to TGP to turn a thread into a character debate thread.

:facepalm
Hmm, to me, it really makes sense that it would be a character debate. There are many folks here that are parents and would hate to see their children and those they love, turn to this type of work.
Yes, to me, doing porn does say something about character. Does it make a person "all bad"? Absolutely not.

For me, I would question the character of anybody in the porn field, no matter how nice and down to earth they are. Acting in a lacivious manner will always make me question the character of somebody.

[Jahn]

Maybe someone in the buttrock scene?

or worse - where did we go wrong, dammit??

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/b/ba/Crabdance.gif

[phoenix 7]

I think it's questionable that porn, on balance, has an adverse effect on society. Porn is a billion dollar business. I don't use it or need it myself -- most of it seems sleazy and crude to me, and I don't approve of its misogynistic aspects. But obviously many millions of American men do need it, and I think it has a necessary social function. Compared to the rest of the advanced world, the USA is pretty repressed sexually. This is an aspect of our culture that can be traced back to the people who arrived here in 1620. Whether people consciously realize it or not, their influence is alive and well -- even on this thread. Porn provides an outlet for sexual impulses that is quite apparently necessary for millions of men. If it alleviates certain needs that might be filled in more destructive ways -- rape, child abuse, etc. --, I'd say it's the lesser of the evils.

[rickboot]

Just because somebody likes what they do and makes money at it, does not make it a bad life choice? Whatever it may be?

This is certainly an interesting thread.

I agree. It isn't like she became a murderer or a drummer.

[xjojox]

xjojox (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/member.php?u=69452), I wasn't going to respond, because frankly you closed that door. But then I never enjoyed being called a coward by an Internet tough guy/troll.

You did equate porn stars w/ serial killers. We didn't bring that up - you did.

As for the "Would you want your daughter to do this" argument, it simply has no basis. Here's why: it's not because I do not want my daughter to be involved in something that I am automatically going to blame those who made that choice. I don't know their history, context or anything else.

You want to throw the first stone, you go right ahead. But please don't feel the need to insult those who default to compassion and not judgmental mode.

As for would I send my kid to war, well, again it doesn't belong here, but I'll say this: I wore my country's uniform. I was deployed to a war zone. Were you?

But then again, according to you and your so-called logic, I *am* a coward, so what do I know?

I'd suggest you read my post with a little less emotion and a little more clarity. The only thing I directed personally to you was wondering if you were a parent. I then depersonalized the entire post. I didn't perceive compassion in your statement, but rather approval. I do apologize if I misread your intent, as I was also reacting to all the "post pictures" posts.

No, I did not call you a coward, nor anyone else in particular. I stated the conditions that I would consider moral cowardice. I would hope that you do not meet that standard.

No, I did not equate being a porn actress with being a serial killer. And no, I did not insult people who default to compassion rather than being judgmental. I simply listed in ascending order examples of immorality, and called out folks who implicitly acknowledge those things as immoral by not supporting them among their loved ones but see no harm in others doing it. This had little to do with the young lady herself, who I wouldn't judge, because she may well be in a bad place due to bad circumstances. I was reacting more to the "post pictures" requests, some of which one might presume came from men with daughters. My point was that maybe they should think about it in the context of their fatherhood.

Yes, I do consider the porn industry immoral. Absolutely. I will cede no ground on that. It has taken advantage of countless troubled young women, historically many of whom were (and continue to be) underage, and perpetuates the objectification of women. It has destroyed countless lives, and in the age of HIV, has caused quite a few deaths. I realize some don't consider this immoral. I do. I will happily agree to disagree with those who think otherwise.

Yes, I wore the uniform, for 26 years, and was deployed to war zones. That does not make me brave, nor does it make anyone who didn't do that a coward. In fact, I'd go so far to suggest that I was more of a coward then, because for much of that time period of my life I might have been a part of the "post pictures" crowd. Funny what a few years and five daughters does to your perspective.

[TheRockDoc]

Leave it to TGP to turn a thread into a character debate thread.

:facepalm

Ha- I now only look at the first and last pages of threads to see how far off track it is :spit

[xjojox]

That's why they call it the Pub. Have a beer.

[A-Bone]

or worse - where did we go wrong, dammit??

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/b/ba/Crabdance.gif

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg

[grill]

it could be worse, like street walking, groupie, giving it out for free or for drugs. sex tapes, jeeze!

she would have an agent and get regular med checkups and paid well.

it's a regulated industry, big bucks and from what i've seen, it's like everyone wants to be a star! lol!

it's a tough thing to deal with, no doubt, i wouldn't want my daughter doing that either.

but as she is an adult, i would help make sure she was not getting into any bad deals if i could. not pimping her! it's a job.

what else could a parent do? disown her? sharia honor killings?

i be totally against her choice but like i said, what can you do? don't watch.

this is a creepy situation for sure.

[PAF]

I agree. It isn't like she became a murderer or a drummer.

/thread ;)

[michael.e]

I find it interesting that it seems the consensus is that those who find it immoral, are somehow repressed.

[v-verb]

She could always just have been a fluffer.

And as far as judgment, because she chose this road doesn't exclude her from being a fine young lady. Sometimes we judge even when we don't realize it.

Agreed. Everyone is deserving of respect.

[Jesus freak]

how is it a bad life choice if she likes it and makes a good living doing it?


YOU obviously don't have a daughter!!!!!

[Cody]

I find it interesting that it seems the consensus is that those who find it immoral, are somehow repressed.
If that is the consensus, my work is done.

:boxer

[cauger]

News flash: women watch and enjoy porn as much as men.

[Flyin' Brian]

News flash: women watch and enjoy porn as much as men.

Not quite accurate. Actually the ratio is 1 to 3.

Sorry, again, but making bad life choices is exactly what makes one a bad person. Your character is determined solely by your thoughts, words and actions. It is not some inherent, intangible trait.

I would agree with you that she is not beyond redemption. We are all broken in some way and none of us is beyond redemption.

You totally lost me at character being determined by thoughts, and the concept that "we are all broken". But I think I heard where you're coming from and you probably can't go any further. That said I disagree with your premise.

edit: Actually you lost me with "making bad life choices makes one a bad person". You have to separate the person from the act. Also define life choices as you see them. My kids' mother and I are divorced, no alcohol or abuse or the like involved. Does that make us bad people?

[Polynitro]

Ok I apologies if I upset any Buttrock fans and fans of Biohazzard....I was thinking of another band.

[A-Bone]

Ok I apologies if I upset any Buttrock fans and fans of Biohazzard....I was thinking of another band.

No offense taken on my part. I honestly have a heck of a time understanding what qualifies as buttrock.

[cauger]

Not quite accurate. Actually the ratio is 1 to 3.





I could link you to a bunch of articles right now but I figure you know how to use a search engine. It's more than 1 to 3.

[The Guy]

What makes you think that the position cannot be defended? It is really much easier than you are making it. And, yes, I refer you to context, you make of it what you want.
Like I said earlier, I would not want my child doing that, it would rip me apart. What does that tell you, about this person regarding context. If you got that f-ing and making love are two different things, you got it right. You determine the context for yourself. Somebody has to take responsibility for your behavior, whatever it may be, it may as well be you.

yes, i think we all know the difference between f-ing and "making love". . . but thats not the critical thing here. the critical thing is the morality of it, right? so again im asking: how are the actions of this woman immoral, or even irresponsible, if she enjoys what she does, earns her keep, and does no one any harm in the process? you may not like it, and thats fine, but thats personal conviction. "i dont like it just because its gross and demeaning" is not a very good argument.

and youre right, it is interesting. :beer

[Flyin' Brian]

I could link you to a bunch of articles right now but I figure you know how to use a search engine. It's more than 1 to 3.

I do and that's where I found my info.

Here are a couple. Old but relevant. I don't have the time to look for more, but porn is still a predominantly male diversion.

In the first three months of 2007, according to Nielsen/NetRatings, approximately one in three visitors to adult entertainment Web sites was female; during the same period, nearly 13 million American women were checking out porn online at least once each month.

77% of online visitors to adult content sites are male. Their average age is 41 and they have an annual income of $60,000. 46% are married.
Forrester Research Report, 2001

[xjojox]

yes, i think we all know the difference between f-ing and "making love". . . but thats not the critical thing here. the critical thing is the morality of it, right? so again im asking: how are the actions of this woman immoral, or even irresponsible, if she enjoys what she does, earns her keep, and does no one any harm in the process? you may not like it, and thats fine, but thats personal conviction. "i dont like it just because its gross and demeaning" is not a very good argument.

and youre right, it is interesting. :beer

Whole lotta "ifs" in that statement.

Enjoying what you do and earning your keep are irrelevant to morality. Hit men, con artists, and politicians (sarcasm intended) presumably enjoy what they do and earn their keep. So the crux of the question is harm

I submit that the porn industry does harm. To the performers. To the customers. To society. As such it is inherently immoral, even avoiding the question of sexual morality (never gonna get a consensus on that one). To negate that statement requires a definition of harm and morality that is so narrow and exclusive as to be meaningless.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable to say "that's just your opinion" when the opinion expressed is in concert with a fundamental consensus of humanity going back millennia regarding what constitutes right and wrong. The idea that engaging in public performance of sex for money could be without harmful ramifications is the novel idea here, and I would suggest that the burden of proof should lie with those who seek to move the grid in terms of defining what is moral, or what is right. Porn wrecks lives. To suggest that those lives are only wrecked because of the quaint and misguided beliefs of those whose lives were wrecked is patronizing.

[cauger]

I do and that's where I found my info.

Here are a couple. Old but relevant. I don't have the time to look for more, but porn is still a predominantly male diversion.

In the first three months of 2007, according to Nielsen/NetRatings, approximately one in three visitors to adult entertainment Web sites was female; during the same period, nearly 13 million American women were checking out porn online at least once each month.

77% of online visitors to adult content sites are male. Their average age is 41 and they have an annual income of $60,000. 46% are married.
Forrester Research Report, 2001




From the same article you quoted above:

"Theresa Flynt, vice president of marketing for Hustler video, says that women account for 56 percent of business at her company's video stores. "And the female audience is increasing," she adds. "Women are buying more porn." (They're creating more of it, too: Female director Candida Royalle's hard-core erotic videos, made expressly for women viewers, sell at the rate of approximately 10,000 copies a month.)

Meanwhile, science is finally buying into the idea that women are at least as stimulated by porn as men.


In a 2006 study at McGill University, researchers monitored genital temperature changes to measure sexual arousal and found that, when shown porn clips, men and women alike began displaying arousal within 30 seconds; men reached maximum arousal in about 11 minutes, women in about 12 (a statistically negligible difference, according to the study).

Even more compelling were the results of a 2004 study at Northwestern University that also assessed the effect of porn on genital arousal. Mind you, a copy of "Buffy the Vampire Layer" and a lubed-up feedback device isn't most girls' idea of a hot night in. But when the researchers showed gay, lesbian, and straight porn to heterosexual and homosexual women and men, they found that while the men responded more intensely to porn that mirrored their particular gender orientation, the women tended to like it all. Or at least their bodies did."

The point being that women enjoy sex just as much as men.

[Charlie48]

the opinion expressed is in concert with a fundamental consensus of humanity going back millennia regarding what constitutes right and wrong.

Not quite sure that's right. Human societies have often tolerated and even encouraged various forms of prostitution for millennia. There were temple prostitutes in Ancient Rome and Greece. Certain indigenous peoples shared their wives and daughters with guests. Etc. The variety of human sexual practices accepted and tolerated is phenomenal. The rise of Christianity in the West changed that. But despite efforts to suppress sex outside of marriage and procreation, people have kept doing it. So to say that this is a "fundamental consensus" seems wishful thinking.

BTW: I'd hate it if my daughter did porn. No doubt about that. But acting like one particular view of sexuality is somehow engrained in who we are as humans doesn't fit the facts.

[grill]

i'm no 007 but i think i've had my share of women, i'm not even tall!


amazing how many women like to do the horizontal bop.

there is the public face we show others and then there is the real us.

it's only natural to try to not look like an animal to others.

like i said before, it would be disheartening if my daughter got into it but not a helleva lot i could do about it if she was of age.

besides, lol, voyeurism (watching porn) is quite normal like watching a train wreck and thank the lord for these pretty gals that get into it. better than the buffarillzas i've had in my life. :o

like tina said, what's love got to do with it?

[kugelblitz]

So the crux of the question is harm

I submit that the porn industry does harm. To the performers. To the customers. To society. As such it is inherently immoral, even avoiding the question of sexual morality (never gonna get a consensus on that one). To negate that statement requires a definition of harm and morality that is so narrow and exclusive as to be meaningless.


If one was to apply the standard of morality based on harm to other industries, you'd find that harm is also caused by the automotive industry, the energy industry, the banking industry, the fast food industry. In fact just about any industry one could name. It could also be reasonably argued that each of these industries contributes more harm than the porn industry through road deaths, pollution, obesity to name a few.

But we don't have the same attitude to workers in those industries as we do to the porn industry - why is that? I don't think that harm is the benchmark for morality in this case. I think we have an intuitive discomfort with it, that is just part of human nature. The harm justification seems like a rationalisation of this preconceived position. If harm was really the standard here, why not apply it in the same way to other industries?

There are definite cases where the porn industry has "wrecked lives", but again I point to my previous examples - how many lives have been wrecked by car accidents, respiratory illness or diabetes? In the case of the porn actress whose life has been ruined, was porn really the root cause? Did it have anything to do with poor education, lack of opportunities, or drug addiction?

Using harm as a standard can point to problems within the industry, but it says nothing of the act itself. How is a worker within the industry immoral? I understand that there is abuse within the industry. How can we improve that? Surely not by continuing to marginalise its employees?

[atomicmassunit]

No offense taken on my part. I honestly have a heck of a time understanding what qualifies as buttrock.

Easy, you know it when you see (hear) it! ;)

[Jiffy_Jeff]

Found out last year a guy I work with has a daughter that is in the adult film industry, or was.
I never talked to him about it. But I hear that he loves her the same as if she were a doctor.

Thats family. Love runs deep.

[grill]

the industry has cleaned up alot in the past years.

drugs are still around like in any other work place but time is money and no one wants to mess around.

std's won't be tolerated either.

it's big biz now and high profile compared to the stag films of yesteryear.

it's fairly regulated as much or better than other industries.

shoot, this thread is giving me some crazy ideas! lol! i can work a camera!

[xntrick]

What is funny to me is all the guys that will judge this girl for her choices, but yet will high five the guy that bangs a new chick every week, secretly wish they were a male porn star, and/or consume the pornography that these women make.

+1, very well said

[Flinx]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.
:agree

[Shake]

There are a lot of things worse than doing porn. She could have gone into politics.

[xroads]

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativism taken to the point that some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer. "Just because he rapes little girls that doesn't make him a bad person". Really? So what constitutes good and bad? Where do you personally draw the line? Because wherever you draw it, someone will tell you that you just don't get it, that you aren't open minded.


So I have a question for anyone whose knee-jerk reaction was that this is a fine career choice and she could well be a "good" person. Would you choose it for your daughter or your wife? Would you proudly take out a half-page ad in the high school yearbook saying, "To our lovely Connie, congratulations on your graduation and we're so proud that you are already getting started in your career in the adult film industry"? Would you really be proud, and choose and encourage this as a direction for someone you love?

If your answer is yes, than quite frankly I don't think you are a "good person" by any reasonable definition. Enjoy living on the fringes.

I your answer is "I wouldn't want it for my daughter or my wife but it's fine if someone else wants to do it", I would suggest that you are not "open minded", but rather that you are a coward. If you wouldn't choose it for your daughter, that's because you have enough common sense to know that it's inherently not a good thing. And you should have enough courage to stand up for what you believe in. This sort of position is right up there with saying you wouldn't personally want to die for Afghan democracy but it's OK for someone else's kid to die for it. Think about it.

I am in major disagreement with your post:
you imply that what is good/bad for you is also good/bad for everyone else.

Have you found the absolute truth of life?

This is a free society, and within the laws, everyone can do whatever he/she wants to. I respect the choices of other people, while I often would not want this for me. For me, understanding other people's choices is much more important that judging them.

[phoenix 7]

Not quite sure that's right. Human societies have often tolerated and even encouraged various forms of prostitution for millennia. There were temple prostitutes in Ancient Rome and Greece.


There was also prostitution in ancient Israel. Holding concubines -- essentially live-in prostitutes -- was legal. King Solomon, who reigned in the 10th century BC, reportedly had hundreds of them.

Homosexuality was very common in ancient Greece, considered pretty normal, and even celebrated by Plato as superior to heterosexuality.

The idea that our current sexual morality "goes back millennia" is true only if one is very selective about which culture one looks at.

[grill]

open the eyes guys,

sex is everywhere. you are watching someones daughter or mom or wife or GF if you can believe the heading.

tramp stamp is a no go for me, i would be livid. tatts ok. anywhere else where you don't put an ash tray or a beer.

go figure. everyones wife was a virgin when you married her, right?

lol!!

[Hwoltage]

Well... this thread has certainly taken off.

[Hwoltage]

tramp stamp is a no go for me, i would be livid. tatts ok. anywhere else where you don't put an ash tray or a beer.


How about the whole clean shaven look? To me, that is saying one of two things: Either "I just got rid the crabs" or "I'm trying to not get the crabs". So sorry.

[stratzrus]

I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us....and now you just can't get her out of your mind. ;)

Mojo, I have to wonder if you are a parent. "Good" and "bad" have essentially little meaning in a world of moral relativismso porn star is the same as serial killer? That doesnt sound right, lol.It's the opposite of moral relativism; moral absolutism.

I wish Camille Paglia was a gear head, would be interesting to get her take on this thread.I know Camille and I doubt that she'd have much to say of interest or value. Her days of relevancy have long past.

[The Guy]

Whole lotta "ifs" in that statement.

Enjoying what you do and earning your keep are irrelevant to morality. Hit men, con artists, and politicians (sarcasm intended) presumably enjoy what they do and earn their keep. So the crux of the question is harm

I submit that the porn industry does harm. To the performers. To the customers. To society. As such it is inherently immoral, even avoiding the question of sexual morality (never gonna get a consensus on that one). To negate that statement requires a definition of harm and morality that is so narrow and exclusive as to be meaningless.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable to say "that's just your opinion" when the opinion expressed is in concert with a fundamental consensus of humanity going back millennia regarding what constitutes right and wrong. The idea that engaging in public performance of sex for money could be without harmful ramifications is the novel idea here, and I would suggest that the burden of proof should lie with those who seek to move the grid in terms of defining what is moral, or what is right. Porn wrecks lives. To suggest that those lives are only wrecked because of the quaint and misguided beliefs of those whose lives were wrecked is patronizing.

is it your opinion, or do you have some proof that porn does harm? are you suggesting that anything that does any "harm" to anyone is immoral? or is immorality something else? im still unclear here. alot of soapbox ambiguity.

[photoguy]

I was surprised not to see this yet.

BqDjMZKf-wg

[MuseCafeChris]

she would have an agent and get regular med checkups and paid well.

it's a regulated industry, big bucks

These things only apply to the top level stars who work for the established studios. There's an increasing number of DIY-type productions where these rules don't apply. I'm guessing the latter is where the OP's acquaintance has ended up.

[DWB1960]

These things only apply to the top level stars who work for the established studios. There's an increasing number of DIY-type productions where these rules don't apply. I'm guessing the latter is where the OP's acquaintance has ended up.

And the amount of gonzo and degrading stuff that goes on in the lower tiers is off the charts. I dig porn and the internet can be a good thing, but some of the stuff I've stumbled across is just plain disturbing.

Porn is an industry that attracts some deeply twisted folks willing to take advantage of naive your girls hoping to make it big. I wouldn't want anyone I know getting caught up in that level of stuff.

[FirstBassman]

A name and a URL reference from the O/P or it didn't happen.

[art_z]

who dictates what is "moral" and "immoral"? there is a large segment of the population that believe sex's only purpose is for procreation, and any sexual contact that is not intended to conceive a child is "immoral". do they set the rules, or someone else?

I have a daughter, and I would prefer she not choose porn as a career choice. That being said, at some point, she is going to make her own choices in life, some good, some bad, as all of us are wont to do, and I will offer her advise if she asks for it, but I will love her unconditionally regardless.

[A-Bone]

she would have an agent and get regular med checkups and paid well.

it's a regulated industry, big bucks and from what i've seen, it's like everyone wants to be a star! lol!


Sharon Mitchell, who ran the recently shuttered AIM, which provided medical testing and also counseling for porn performers in southern California for years, counsels newcomers to the industry with the admonitions "everyone you do not want to see this will see this, and porn is forever." She has long said that these respond to the two biggest misconceptions she has found among new entries.

As far as regulations are concerned, while it is the case that there is a certain amount of oversight related to the industry in LA, it is not as heavily regulated as California would prefer (you can look up recent attempts to dramatically reclassify the work and increase the presence of CalOSHA in porn production for more info about this).

And this does not account for the fact that porn is being produced all over the place, meaning that it could have its origin anywhere in the US -- even in locales where its production is likely illegal based on local ordinance and also community standards. For this reason, I would not assume that porn is especially regulated or controlled outside of the larger companies.

As far as porn performers having agents and all, this likewise tends to apply more to the LA and other big city porn companies (NY, SF, etc.), but is hardly the case for the vast majority of performers appearing in internet scenes.

Finally, while it is true that per scene rates are likely to represent a great deal more money than retail or minimum wage employment, and while it is certainly true that the business as a whole generates a great deal of revenue, I would not assume porn performers are earning a great deal from porn. They get paid a flat per scene fee based largely on what they do in that scene. They receive no royalties from subsequent sales. And they often get shot out in a relatively brief amount of time, as this is an industry that thrives on novelty and has no shortage of willing aspirants.

And the relatively recent proliferation of tube sites showing copyright infringing porn scenes misappropriated from the porn companies has caused the production companies to take a substantial enough hit that there is much less production than there was a few years ago, which means fewer scenes are available in the industry proper around LA and SF and whatnot, which means performers often work less. Some porn performers make a good deal of money feature dancing at strip clubs -- if they are name stars that have a fan base they command a premium to appear. But the slow down in production has also apparently led to an even great number of porn performers turning to escorting to supplement their incomes. This latter course involves all kinds of additional legal issues, as well as exposing the performers to greater health and safety risks.

[A-Bone]

And the amount of gonzo and degrading stuff that goes on in the lower tiers is off the charts. I dig porn and the internet can be a good thing, but some of the stuff I've stumbled across is just plain disturbing.

Porn is an industry that attracts some deeply twisted folks willing to take advantage of naive your girls hoping to make it big. I wouldn't want anyone I know getting caught up in that level of stuff.

This is an important point. Marginal industries, meaning those that skirt social mores, laws and the like, tend to attract marginal types. Porn is a poster child for a marginal line of work, and tends to attract its share of shady characters, criminals, and misanthropes and psychopaths.

Actually, despite some public face about mainstreaming pornography in American culture, the consistent efforts of those within the industry to push boundaries and skirt the edges of obscenity demonstrates a desire to stay marginal.

[DWB1960]

Porn is a poster child for a marginal line of work, and tends to attract its share of shady characters, criminals, and misanthropes and psychopaths.


I remember porn from the 70s and 80s when it was considered "risque" to see triple penetration or a girl using a strap on to screw a guy. In hindsight, that is so pedestrian in contrast to some of the stuff going on these days. It seems that "directors" just keep pushing the limits further and further to the extreme of flat out gross/twisted.

And you have to wonder how desperate or messed up some of the people performing in these scenes have to be to submit to some of this stuff.

[MuseCafeChris]

And you have to wonder how desperate or messed up some of the people performing in these scenes have to be to submit to some of this stuff.

Actually, you don't have to wonder. Very desperate and awfully messed up. Happy, well-adjusted people generally do not end up in the adult industry. This has always been the case, and it's even less so nowadays.

[bigdaddy]

Actually, you don't have to wonder. Very desperate and awfully messed up. Happy, well-adjusted people generally do not end up in the adult industry. This has always been the case, and it's even less so nowadays.

Wait just a minute!!!

According to the TGP code of moral relativism, she is a fine young lady and anybody who says otherwise is an evil, judgmental asshat.


(Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people?)

[photoguy]

I remember porn from the 70s and 80s

Ah the good old days when the men would wear masks and black socks.

[MuseCafeChris]

Wait just a minute!!!

According to the TGP code of moral relativism, she is a fine young lady and anybody who says otherwise is an evil, judgmental asshat.


(Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people?)

I won't go so far as to say a desperate, messed up person is automatically a bad person. At this point, OP's acquaintance is doing harm to herself, not others. I think that's where the differentiation exists for me.

[v-verb]

I think we're hoping she comes out of it OK.

I wouldn't want a friend or relative in that business, but at the same time don't want to make them feel like they deserve any less caring or respect than anyone else making a living. As many of us know, it's a harsh world and economy out there.

[Flyin' Brian]

Ah the good old days when the men would wear masks and black socks.

And big..............................mustaches

[bigdaddy]

I won't go so far as to say a desperate, messed up person is automatically a bad person. At this point, OP's acquaintance is doing harm to herself, not others. I think that's where the differentiation exists for me.

What exactly do you mean by "a bad person"? Worthless? Irredeemable?

I think we're hoping she comes out of it OK.

I think (well, at least I hope) we are all hoping she comes out of it ok.

[Soul Man]

how is it a bad life choice if she likes it and makes a good living doing it?

The same could be said about a bartender in a smokey room - you may get lung cancer and die young but if he or she likes it, how can we say they are making a bad life choice?

[Soul Man]

How about the whole clean shaven look? To me, that is saying one of two things: Either "I just got rid the crabs" or "I'm trying to not get the crabs". So sorry.

:spit

[Charlie48]

Unless I missed something in this discussion, no one seems to want to address directly that lots of guys watch the most depraved stuff. I mean if there weren't a market for it, it wouldn't exist. Not saying - again, NOT saying - that just because there's a market for something, it's OK with me. There's probably a market for snuff films. But if we're going to be talking about messed up girls (agreed) and asshat producers (agreed), let's point a finger at the end user. When guys stop wanting to see women gang-banged by 145 guys, people will stop making those films.

[Strat-Mangler]

Wait just a minute!!!

According to the TGP code of moral relativism, she is a fine young lady and anybody who says otherwise is an evil, judgmental asshat.


(Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people?)
Here's the big problem ; everybody is assuming things about a person they never ever met. The OP and his daughter haven't had contact with her for quite some time, too. So you may as well say they don't know her anymore.

Having said that, one of the assumptions is that you are automatically broken or a less than good human being if you work in that industry. You're letting your thoughts on the industry color what you think of the participants and I find that really too bad. The OP shares your train of thought, it seems.

For instance, I hate guns and find the whole concept of owning one and potentially using it to be beyond ancient and barbaric... yet I don't think that everybody who disagrees and/or has one to be a moron just because of one of their possessions. See where I'm getting at? Even if you disagree with an idea, it doesn't make the participants championing it to automatically be subhuman or whatever other "term of endearment" you wish to use. Hate the porn industry, but for the OP to lift his nose and scoff at this person and say stuff like "she used to be one of us" as if to insinuate she's now scum is a huge turn-off for me and induces lots of headshaking as well.

Maybe she enjoys the work, the industry, etc. Just remember that you're working solely based on assumptions. If/until he has a talk with her, he'll never know if he's right or wrong.

And frankly, regardless of the outcome, should that taint the OP's memories he shared with her? If so, I find that pitiful... but hopefully, it doesn't. :)

[Papajuice]

Wow how far we have digressed as a society.

[MuseCafeChris]

What exactly do you mean by "a bad person"? Worthless? Irredeemable?

Neither of those. For lack of better terms, "taking a DP" is IMO much less egregious than, say, "getting pregnant and flushing the baby down the toilet after giving birth to it in a public bathroom."

Having said that, one of the assumptions is that you are automatically broken or a less than good human being if you work in that industry. You're letting your thoughts on the industry color what you think of the participants and I find that really too bad. The OP shares your train of thought, it seems.

Well, I for one said "generally." I also happen to work in the industry (somewhat on the periphery but definitely connected to it) so I stand by my statements. The internet has also changed the industry, and it is undeniably less "professional" these days, at least in terms of what occurs on the set.

[grateful.ed]

1N6rzfoWHzg

[xjojox]

is it your opinion, or do you have some proof that porn does harm? are you suggesting that anything that does any "harm" to anyone is immoral? or is immorality something else? im still unclear here. alot of soapbox ambiguity.

There are reams and reams of documentation in peer reviewed literature regarding the harm caused by pornography. Proof doesn't get a whole lot better than that.

Regarding harm as a standard for morality, that is an interesting discussion.

Regarding "the industry is regulated" being a argument against immorality, I think that one falls right away.

Nuclear power is regulated, and certainly has harmed people. There are those who believe passionately that it is immoral.

Abortion clinics are regulated, and certainly have harmed people. There are those who believe passionately that abortion is immoral.

Corporate farming is regulated, and many meat lovers might get queasy if they saw where their milk-fed veal comes from. There are those who believe passionately that corporate farming is immoral, and there are those who passionately believe that eating meat is immoral.

Wall street is regulated, and certainly has harmed people. Been to a park in a major city lately? Lots of passion out there right now.

Gambling is regulated, and has wrecked countless lives. There are those who believe passionately that it is immoral.

Alcohol is regulated....

Marijuana is regulated....

Hazardous and nuclear waste disposal is regulated...

Circumcision is regulated...

One can go on and on. Everyone draws the line in a different place, and in each of these examples there are passionate opinions on both sides.

As another poster has pointed out, porn is a fringe industry, and as others have pointed out, it is crawling towards the mainstream. But does mainstream acceptance equal morality? NAMBLA believes that it is good and healthy for men to introduce young boys to sex. If this view became mainstream in our culture, would that make it moral?

This is a virtual pub. Opinions are exchanged, sometimes stridently. Oh well.

My heart breaks for this girl.

[j2b4o]

NAMBLA believes that it is good and healthy for men to introduce young boys to sex. If this view became mainstream in our culture, would that make it moral?.

I fail to see how the North American Marlon Brando Look Alikes have anything to do with young boys. Or this discussion.

[CRAIG4FSU]

The Mrs used to work with Ginger Lynns dad in Rockford Ill.She said he had pics(clothed) of her on his desk and cubicle walls.She said he was very proud of her and always spoke highly of her.

[russ6100]

There are reams and reams of documentation in peer reviewed literature regarding the harm caused by pornography. Proof doesn't get a whole lot better than that.



Really?
I wonder how they conducted this "research"....

I wonder how they gathered the data, how they could possibly control any of the many, many variables, how they were conclusively able to make undeniable connections to any negative events in each subject's lives....

[Average Joe]

Honestly, there is no objective way to determine whether or not a porn actress is any better or worse a person than those in any other vocation. Of course it's possible to hold the opinion that "proper" people wouldn't take that sort of work, but can we agree that that is highly subjective? Besides, we're talking about a person who have a particular job - as much as we might define ourselves by what we do, a person is so much more than a vocation

To say more than: "she made a choice I wouldn't have" is to venture into guesswork

[The Guy]

There are reams and reams of documentation in peer reviewed literature regarding the harm caused by pornography. Proof doesn't get a whole lot better than that.

Regarding harm as a standard for morality, that is an interesting discussion.

Regarding "the industry is regulated" being a argument against immorality, I think that one falls right away.

Nuclear power is regulated, and certainly has harmed people. There are those who believe passionately that it is immoral.

Abortion clinics are regulated, and certainly have harmed people. There are those who believe passionately that abortion is immoral.

Corporate farming is regulated, and many meat lovers might get queasy if they saw where their milk-fed veal comes from. There are those who believe passionately that corporate farming is immoral, and there are those who passionately believe that eating meat is immoral.

Wall street is regulated, and certainly has harmed people. Been to a park in a major city lately? Lots of passion out there right now.

Gambling is regulated, and has wrecked countless lives. There are those who believe passionately that it is immoral.

Alcohol is regulated....

Marijuana is regulated....

Hazardous and nuclear waste disposal is regulated...

Circumcision is regulated...

One can go on and on. Everyone draws the line in a different place, and in each of these examples there are passionate opinions on both sides.

As another poster has pointed out, porn is a fringe industry, and as others have pointed out, it is crawling towards the mainstream. But does mainstream acceptance equal morality? NAMBLA believes that it is good and healthy for men to introduce young boys to sex. If this view became mainstream in our culture, would that make it moral?

This is a virtual pub. Opinions are exchanged, sometimes stridently. Oh well.

My heart breaks for this girl.

a few points from this post (unless im mistaken - i admit, i am an idiot):

1. different people have different ideas of what morality is. we all "draw our lines somewhere." so how can you make absolute moral judgments based on this?

2. some things that society-at-large find immoral or dangerous are regulated. are you suggesting that we ought to regulate sexual activity? are you suggesting that society-at-large is so well-informed and pragmatic that we are to accept widely held beliefs by virtue of their widespread acceptance?

3. are you saying that NAMBLA has the same agenda as 18 and over pornography? are we comparing apples to oranges to make our judgments because there is no way to define exactly how pornography is immoral in itself?

[coldfingaz]

The Pub is indeed for discussion, but it's sad when it becomes so judgmental & personal agenda-driven... because, really... is that still a discussion?

Doesn't seem like one worth having especially since none of this bickering or your personal moral barometers do anything to help the OP or the girl in question. Not to consider the fact that she may not want anyone's help to begin with... she may be perfectly happy & healthy for all we know.

But, I love how some will get so desperate that they will drag every ugly crime under the sun in attempt to support their points especially since nothing about this thread or the young girl in question has anything to do with criminal acts.

[stratzrus]

These things only apply to the top level stars who work for the established studios. There's an increasing number of DIY-type productions where these rules don't apply. I'm guessing the latter is where the OP's acquaintance has ended up.Based on what? He said she had done hundreds of movies...sounds like she's working with pros to me.

...she is a fine young lady and anybody who says otherwise is an evil, judgmental asshat.:agree

Here's the big problem ; everybody is assuming things about a person they never ever met....regardless of the outcome, should that taint the OP's memories he shared with her? I'm thinking he's reliving those memories on a nightly basis these days. ;)

...different people have different ideas of what morality is. we all "draw our lines somewhere." so how can you make absolute moral judgments based on this?That's what judgemental people do, engage in moral absolutism and assert relentlessly that what they believe applies to all people in all situations.

My only response is that I hope she doesn't get caught up in some BS that has a negative effect on her physical and/or mental health.

And to those who are on their moral high horses all I can say is that you, and the rest of the world, would be better off if you dealt with your own shortcomings instead of condemning the moral choices of others.

[MuseCafeChris]

Based on what? He said she had done hundreds of movies...sounds like she's working with pros to me.

Quantity doesn't always equal quality. And I'm basing it on the law of averages. There are a lot more people with videocameras making movies in their living rooms and distributing them on the 'net (and yes, doing so by the hundreds and thousands) than there are established adult film studios.

[xjojox]

a few points from this post (unless im mistaken - i admit, i am an idiot):

1. different people have different ideas of what morality is. we all "draw our lines somewhere." so how can you make absolute moral judgments based on this?

2. some things that society-at-large find immoral or dangerous are regulated. are you suggesting that we ought to regulate sexual activity? are you suggesting that society-at-large is so well-informed and pragmatic that we are to accept widely held beliefs by virtue of their widespread acceptance?

3. are you saying that NAMBLA has the same agenda as 18 and over pornography? are we comparing apples to oranges to make our judgments because there is no way to define exactly how pornography is immoral in itself?

1. I believe that moral absolutes are ultimately person-specific. Are you suggesting that you have no moral absolutes? My opinion is my opinion. I believe that porn causes harm and that it is immoral. I don't expect the entire world to agree. But to me it is an absolute.

2. Society does regulate sexual activity. You have sex without your partner's consent, you are a rapist. You have sex with a child, who cannot consent, likewise. Some states go much farther. Should we regulate sexual activities between consenting adults? IMHO no. But I think this thread has been more about the morality of porn, not sex in general, and more specifically whether one would support one's child being involved in it.

I think porn is inherently immoral. But I think that's a separate question from how it should be regulated or whether it should be illegal. I don't think this thread has touched on the topic of legally banning porn.


3. Not sure why you are getting at. I was making the point that different folks define immoral in different ways. I was not drawing an equivalence between NAMBLA and porn any more than I was drawing an equivalence between nuclear power and porn. Just pointing out that regulation does not equal moral or safe, nor does widespread acceptance.

My heart breaks for this girl. I'm OK with the fact that she might think that is silly.

[The Guy]

you could have spared us all the dramatic righteousness and just said

"thats just, like, your opinion man."

[DWB1960]

you could have spared us all the dramatic righteousness and just said

"thats just, like, your opinion man."

:spit

[smiert spionam]

I'd be interested in seeing a Venn diagram comparing those who have lamented/criticized appearing in pornography in this thread and those who have ogled/read/contributed to the various bikini and porn threads here.

I'd bet a nickel there's some overlap.

[Soul Man]

I'd be interested in seeing a Venn diagram comparing those who have lamented/criticized appearing in pornography in this thread and those who have ogled/read/contributed to the various bikini and porn threads here.

I'd bet a nickel there's some overlap.

Truth.

[MuseCafeChris]

I'd be interested in seeing a Venn diagram comparing those who have lamented/criticized appearing in pornography in this thread and those who have ogled/read/contributed to the various bikini and porn threads here.

I'd bet a nickel there's some overlap.

Bikini threads aren't porn threads, and real porn threads aren't allowed here.

[smiert spionam]

Bikini threads aren't porn threads, and real porn threads aren't allowed here.

And what percentage of the women in those pics are best known for porn? A long way from zero, to be sure.

[DWB1960]

And what percentage of the women in those pics are best known for porn? A long way from zero, to be sure.

I'm not certain that any porn stars have been depicted in that thread. Correct me if I am wrong with examples.

And anyway, what's your point?

[MuseCafeChris]

And what percentage of the women in those pics are best known for porn? A long way from zero, to be sure.

Some, but I don't know about a long way. And even the ones that are, I'm sure the connection is lost on a lot of people who post them. Just another hot chick who came up in a Google image search.

Anywho, I'm getting the impression that the average TGPer's perception of porn is similar to the average TGPer's perception of music: they have no concept of anything that's been released since the '70s.

Rest assured, things have changed drastically in both.

[Peteyvee]

I'm not certain that any porn stars have been depicted in that thread. Correct me if I am wrong with examples...


I know of one for sure. Not that there's anything wrong with that...it's a multi-Billion dollar a year business and it's not illegal...
I'd be happy to PM you with the example, but I can't afford any more infractions...

[DWB1960]

I'd be happy to PM you with the example, but I can't afford any more infractions...

Please. I missed it. Thanks.

[EricPeterson]

I'm not certain that any porn stars have been depicted in that thread. Correct me if I am wrong with examples.



Nice try. :nono


:rotflmao


;)

[smiert spionam]

My point is that there's a lot of hypocrisy and moralizing going on here. Nothing new in that regard.

Lots of guys want their daughters and wives to be virgins, and their eye candy to be whores. Nothing new there, either.

[Flyin' Brian]

Anywho, I'm getting the impression that the average TGPer's perception of porn is similar to the average TGPer's perception of music: they have no concept of anything that's been released since the '70s.


I think the last two commercial flicks I've seen were Satisfiers of Alpha Blue and Every Woman Has A Fantasy. I think that got me to the '80s.

[DWB1960]

I think the last two commercial flicks I've seen were Satisfiers of Alpha Blue and Every Woman Has A Fantasy. I think that got me to the '80s.

And the internet has served you since? ;)

[Flyin' Brian]

And the internet has served you since? ;)

Why not?

[DWB1960]

Why not?

Works for me too!

[JDW3]

Where's the pics already???!!!


On a serious note, years ago my bigshot lawyer who knows everybody in the Detroit area, asked me if I'd seen his daughter. He said she was dancing over in Canada. I knew who he meant; she was an 80's porn actress and never even changed her name.

[photoguy]

5yU61GtjFN8

[Cody]

Make it a double feature:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LQRC_ddX2jk/Thz89TInrWI/AAAAAAAAA3E/xk1O9ERrm2s/s1600/lg3516%252Bdevils-harvest-reefer-madness-poster.jpg

[CowTipton]

This thread does not deliver.

We need names.

How am I supposed to pass judgement on this chick's career if I haven't seen her work?

[DWB1960]

5yU61GtjFN8

Crazy heavy movie.

[PhishinPole]

More importantly, how are my fiance and I supposed to support this fine girl's career without a name?

[chrisr777]

Anywho, I'm getting the impression that the average TGPer's perception of porn is similar to the average TGPer's perception of music: they have no concept of anything that's been released since the '70s.

Back in the late 90's I did graphics for a company in Chatsworth. One of our biggest clients was a porn studio and I worked on the covers for countless videos (got some nice free samples). I hate to say it, but in the 70's a lot of the porn had actual plots like the Devil in Miss Jones and Flesh Gordon. Now most of it is just say two words and get to it. I say it's time to add substance to our pornography. Let's get back to artful smut.

[socalscott]

Sorry I am not going there. I really am in shock as is our family. I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us. She was not the sharpest but a good kid overall.

Dude, you sound like you've been betrayed. Hey, she was a good kid, she just found out she really likes humpin' aaaaa lot.

Have her over for dinner.

[xntrick]

Sorry I am not going there. I really am in shock as is our family. I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us. She was not the sharpest but a good kid overall.

you are probably in shock as most people think the porn world is a dark and cold career, i'm sure some of it but some women do very well for themselves..i found out a while back that the girl next door to us got divorced at a young age and ended up as a street prostitute with a bad drug habit..now THAT shocked me

[Papajuice]

I always remembered this a case of what an industry can do to someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shauna_Grant

[xntrick]

I always remembered this a case of what an industry can do to someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shauna_Grant


if those facts are indeed correct (you never know with Frontline) she attempted suicide before she was ever in the porn business...

[Hwoltage]

Sorry I am not going there. I really am in shock as is our family. I mean this is a girl that went on trips with us and spent a week when parents were traveling etc and we took her in as one of us. She was not the sharpest but a good kid overall.


You're really laying down some heavy stereotypes here. If her situation is really as "bad" as you are assuming, one thing that could make it worse would be people from her childhood (you) treating her like a leper.

That said, it's possible she's making good money. Pole dancing has become VERY popular with female medical and law students as they can dance for 10 minutes and do home work for an hour. Repeat that four or five time and in some cases you have a $1000 night. Many of them are coming out of school far better off than those with student loans they can't even begin to touch until they find a decent job, in this economy...

It's not all bad.

[A-Bone]

I always remembered this a case of what an industry can do to someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shauna_Grant

The case of Colleen Applegate (aka Shauna Grant) is certainly a sad one, as was the case of Michelle Schei (aka Megan Leigh) a few years later, the case of Shannon Wilsey (aka Savannah) a few years after that, or that of Randy Potes (aka Cal Jammer) or more recently Chester Anuszak (aka Jon Dough). But in each case we are talking about a troubled individual. To suggest that porn is responsible for their deaths is pretty ridiculous.

I have no doubt you could find a similar or greater incidence of suicide in other professions. Especially considering the sheer volume of talent that churns through the porn industry, and the often marginal or troubled state of individuals that populate it, I would be surprised to find that the rate of suicide is all that high.

[cutaway]

I always remembered this a case of what an industry can do to someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shauna_Grant
as long as we're posting links:

For many years now, physicians have had the highest suicide rate compared to people in any other line of work. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200908/the-occupation-the-highest-suicide-rate)

[Thwap]

This thread does not deliver.

We need names.

How am I supposed to pass judgement on this chick's career if I haven't seen her work?

Exactly.

[rspencer]

But in each case we are talking about a troubled individual. To suggest that porn is responsible for their deaths is pretty ridiculous.

I have no doubt you could find a similar or greater incidence of suicide in other professions. Especially considering the sheer volume of talent that churns through the porn industry, and the often marginal or troubled state of individuals that populate it, I would be surprised to find that the rate of suicide is all that high.

http://thepinkcross.org/gallery/?g2_itemId=84

The link was posted some pages back.
I agree. No doubt, we could create a list of musicians that would dwarf the porn star list...and we wouldn't have to include car wrecks or natural causes.

The porn mantra is always "I love my job, and it's what I wanted to do." Sure, there must be cases in which that is true. But many doing porn were possibly emotionally scarred before starting.

Just as one example, if you read Jenna Jameson's autobiography, she states repeatedly that nothing bad ever happened to her, she was perfectly normal, etc. Also in her book, she writes of how she was raped several times growing up, how she felt abandoned by her family, etc.

Hopefully the girl in the OP just decided she wanted to try it, enjoys getting paid to have sex, and likes the money. No matter how "immoral" that may be to some, I prefer to think that compared to the alternative of that she's psychologically acting out due to personal trauma (psychological/sexual/emotional).

The porn industry can chew you up & spit you out if you're not strong, but it's not the only industry that does that.

[chrisjw5]

I did not equate being a porn star with being a serial killer.

Yeah, actually, you did.

some folk think it's OK for their daughter to grow up to be a porn star. Or a prostitute. Or a thief or a serial killer.

If you didn't think you were equating them, then what exactly were you doing? Because equating them is what you did. You might say now that you didn't mean to, but you did.

[CowTipton]

No he didn't.
He just listed a series of bad career choices.

He doesn't go on to say they're all equally bad, you decided to read that into his sentence despite it not being there.

[xjojox]

No he didn't.
He just listed a series of bad career choices.

He doesn't go on to say they're all equally bad, you decided to read that into his sentence despite it not being there.

This.

[The Guy]

so i guess the consensus is "its immoral cuz' i says so!"

theres some harsh criticism in this thread with no real explanation beyond that^

its easy to pass judgment, not so easy to spell out why.

[rane008]

So this guy is upset and ashamed of the situation...and he takes his case to a public forum. Let the girl do what she wants to do, make her own mistakes.

[rane008]

And we all feel the need to comment on it, myself included (dammit). For my own sake,

I'm done with this thread.

[Hwoltage]

And we all feel the need to comment on it,

Well, yeah. It's porn. It's a reproductive instinct. We are powerless.

[A-Bone]

Well, yeah. It's porn. It's a reproductive instinct. We are powerless.

Pornography is synonymous with the reproductive instinct?

[Polynitro]

I know I cant even get it up without at least 5 union guys in the room.

[Hwoltage]

Pornography is synonymous with the reproductive instinct?

It has that effect?? :rotflmao:rotflmao

I sure thought it was funny.

[pfflam]

Pornography is synonymous with the reproductive instinct?
Not synonymous but related

Any profession that deals that directly and that intensely with the animal body must demand a hardy ego construction
and to add to that the unavoidable cross-talk of the ubiquitous moralizing that runs through almost any culture - it must be a hard road to take and I am sure many individuals are not as completely committed to being able to accept it as they thought they were.

I also think many people jump at the job because in a way it is a kind of flip-the bird at the idea of being an animal subject to the procreative drive, (I think that is one porn's big draws for people in general, a way to momentarily steer that drive into a semblance of ego-control rather than the reality of the other way around) but while it does flip-the-bird at being an animal at the same time it is all about being a body, being a meaty fleshy and very limmited thing - a kind of contradictory situation that might easily result in psychological dissonance.

Just as I am sure a lot of physicians find it very hard to constantly confront the reality of being a motivated bag of meat and bones subject to all manner of ills, and on top of that being overworked.

These kind of things wear on the ego construct

[Hwoltage]

I also think many people jump at the job because in a way it is a kind of flip-the bird at the idea of being an animal subject to the procreative drive, (I think that is one porn's big draws for people in general, a way to momentarily steer that drive into a semblance of ego-control rather than the reality of the other way around) but while it does flip-the-bird at being an animal at the same time it is all about being a body, being a meaty fleshy and very limmited thing - a kind of contradictory situation that might easily result in psychological dissonance.

...


Well stated.

[buddaman71]

I guess this is pretty relevant to this thread...2k/night

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/25/pf/America_boomtown_strippers/index.htm?hpt=hp_c2

[A-Bone]

I guess this is pretty relevant to this thread...2k/night

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/25/pf/America_boomtown_strippers/index.htm?hpt=hp_c2

Much more lucrative than porn performance based on the figures included, but it is another sex worker occupation that is also often socially criticized.

[Average Joe]

It is somewhat interesting to me that it is the person displaying herself in sexual acts that is looked down on rather than the people who watch.

[DWB1960]

Nina Hartley on the popularity of MILF porn with older men and woman. Pretty enlightening stuff that makes a ton of sense. (I worked in a retirement home when I was a teen and I can back up what Nina says here)

HQanP_smKAI

[A-Bone]

Nina Hartley often has interesting and insightful things to say about the business and sexuality in general. Talk about the exception to the rule: she is a lifer in the business.

[The Guy]

Not synonymous but related

Any profession that deals that directly and that intensely with the animal body must demand a hardy ego construction
and to add to that the unavoidable cross-talk of the ubiquitous moralizing that runs through almost any culture - it must be a hard road to take and I am sure many individuals are not as completely committed to being able to accept it as they thought they were.

I also think many people jump at the job because in a way it is a kind of flip-the bird at the idea of being an animal subject to the procreative drive, (I think that is one porn's big draws for people in general, a way to momentarily steer that drive into a semblance of ego-control rather than the reality of the other way around) but while it does flip-the-bird at being an animal at the same time it is all about being a body, being a meaty fleshy and very limmited thing - a kind of contradictory situation that might easily result in psychological dissonance.

Just as I am sure a lot of physicians find it very hard to constantly confront the reality of being a motivated bag of meat and bones subject to all manner of ills, and on top of that being overworked.

These kind of things wear on the ego construct

this is a good post. . .

i just wonder how much of this 'psychological dissonance" is a result of being told by society that their line of work is something to be ashamed of.

my wife has a niece who was born with a deformed left hand. everything else about this little girl is as normal as they come, and for the first 5 or 6 years of her life, she never knew that she had a "handicap". now, shes in school and has since discovered that she is different and that, according to those around her, she is at a disadvantage - even though she learned to do all the same things as any other kid of her age. just a thought.

[slipbeer]

16 pages and still no pic and no lock......you guys are slippin'

[johann]

No name???

mmmm

[A-Bone]

OP is not providing a name. He is not gloating, but is bothered by this discovery, and I do not think he wants people here ogling the young lady in question -- although if she has appeared in a couple hundred scenes, odds are that at least some here are familiar with her.

[Flyin' Brian]

Nina Hartley often has interesting and insightful things to say about the business and sexuality in general. Talk about the exception to the rule: she is a lifer in the business.

I remember when she wasn't a MILF.

[MuseCafeChris]

A little insight into the state of the industry today:

http://nymag.com/news/features/70985/

[pickaguitar]

Still no pics?

[DWB1960]

I remember when she wasn't a MILF.

http://www.freecodesource.com/movie-poster/41eXYCYHQeL/-nina-hartley%27s-guide-to-alternative-sex-%28xxx-vhs%29.jpg

[Flyin' Brian]

http://www.freecodesource.com/movie-poster/41eXYCYHQeL/-nina-hartley%27s-guide-to-alternative-sex-%28xxx-vhs%29.jpg

Somehow I knew you'd have a reference. :bow

[AJ Love]

I've dated a few strippers (aka "professional dancers") over the years and through them knew a few women who moved to LA to become Porn Stars

This thread really illustrates alot of preconceived notions and prejudices but then again this comes as little of a surprise as TGP is really a forum filled with guitar owners and not musicians

I mean really now folks, alot of you guys revere Hendrix & SRV and Jimmy Page and seem to look the other way about them being hardcore drug abusers and/or womanizers, either that or you have extreme double-standards in life and that is kind of sad

The dancers I dated and their friends who got into Porn were very mentally together women who happened to be very attractive and used their looks to make a ton of money while working through college and/or paying off student loans and buying real estate. Sure I saw a few women in that industry who were coke-heads or came from abusive backgrounds which is exactly the same as what I see in every music scene but for the most part it was young women using their looks to get way ahead

[jimpridx]

I've dated a few strippers (aka "professional dancers") over the years and through them knew a few women who moved to LA to become Porn Stars

This thread really illustrates alot of preconceived notions and prejudices but then again this comes as little of a surprise as TGP is really a forum filled with guitar owners and not musicians

I mean really now folks, alot of you guys revere Hendrix & SRV and Jimmy Page and seem to look the other way about them being hardcore drug abusers and/or womanizers, either that or you have extreme double-standards in life and that is kind of sad

The dancers I dated and their friends who got into Porn were very mentally together women who happened to be very attractive and used their looks to make a ton of money while working through college and/or paying off student loans and buying real estate. Sure I saw a few women in that industry who were coke-heads or came from abusive backgrounds which is exactly the same as what I see in every music scene but for the most part it was young women using their looks to get way ahead

AJ, being from MadCity, you may have even dated one of my old girlfriends.....LOL. She was a Playboy bunny at Lake Geneva for a while and later moved on to pole dancing. Funny thing is, she's been a successful psychologist for many years now. Go figure!

[big jilm]

Hey, AJ - it's possible to think that porn is bad and drug abuse and womanizing isn't.

[Cody]

Hey, AJ - it's possible to think that porn is bad and drug abuse and womanizing isn't.
Especially while abusing drugs.

:rotflmao

[DWB1960]

Hey, AJ - it's possible to think that porn is bad and drug abuse and womanizing isn't.

Around here, anything is possible.

One thing too many folks are doing is lumping all available sex related stuff under the title of porn.

That equates to lumping all available music under the title of pop (as folks are doing in that other thread)

[Hwoltage]

Around here, anything is possible.

One thing too many folks are doing is lumping all available sex related stuff under the title of porn.

That equates to lumping all available music under the title of pop (as folks are doing in that other thread)


Agreed.

[AJ Love]

Hey, AJ - it's possible to think that porn is bad and drug abuse and womanizing isn't.

Sure, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I get that...

[A-Bone]

I remember when she wasn't a MILF.

Me, too. The first and only issue of the Hustler Erotic Video Guide that I ever (surreptitiously) saw (as a minor) had an article about Nina Hartley when she was a relative newcomer to the business.

[Corinthian]

Reading some of the comments here and then looking at "location" is interesting. It does seem to affirm some geographical stereotypes.

[bbrunskill]

It is somewhat interesting to me that it is the person displaying herself in sexual acts that is looked down on rather than the people who watch.

I agree with these wise words.