Your thoughts on necks made without a truss rod . . . .

[enigma]

A local luthier made a fantastic electric guitar from scratch except for the electronics and hardware. The neck, however, does not have a truss rod. He told me that both the technique and the way the neck was shaped and made (taking into account the grain of the wood, etc.) practically guarantees itself from warping. It's hard to believe, but the tone unplugged is really resonant unlike any other guitars - it's resonant as if the guitar is semi-hollow.

I'm tempted, but need some opinions, especially from TGP luthiers.

[batsbrew]

my custom williams special has no truss rod.

a decision was made about string tension (based on .10's), and (2) bars of aircraft aluminum were used to keep the neck straight.

built in 1986, my neck has never budged even a fraction of an inch.
the ebony fretboard shrank slightly over the last 11 years, from moving to the 2nd driest state in the nation, but other than that, it's been a perfect neck.



The Williams Special.



http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1818/williamsclose.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6304/15646818.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7111/williamsheadstock.jpg

(semi-related: my first guitar was a '75 Fender Mustang.)

This guitar was commissioned in 1986.

It is a Gibson Les paul-Fender strat-Fender mustang-Gibson explorer HYBRID.
-built by Stan Williams, Rome Georgia.

-based on the Fender Mustang scale length....this design is also similar to brian may's red special.
-honduras mahogany body, with air cavities carved in the body below the maple top.
-flame maple top, 3/8" thick.
-blueprint-scaled strat body.
-2-piece flame maple neck, with ebony fingerboard.
-no truss rod! there are (2) rectangular pieces of aircraft aluminum running the length of the fretboard.
-flame maple veneer on headstock, front, sides, and back.
-24" scale length.
-jumbo frets.
-custom inlays: mother of pearl, diamond shape, with a split diamond around the center pickup.
-Kahler 2300 pro tremelo.
-(3) off/on switches
-master volume, master tone, 3rd switch now unwired-
it was originally equipped with a EMG SA assembly, and the 3rd knob was the presence control.
it now has (2) bill lawrence L-280's, and a duncan Little 59 humbucker in the bridge.
-explorer headstock shape, true to scale.
-long tenon set neck
-13 degree tilt back headstock
-graphtec nut, with locking kahler nut behind it.



the Flame maple used on the top and neck, and veneers, was from a large timber (136 years old as of 2011) salvaged from a barn in Illinois.
The honduras was acquired long before there were conservation laws on that particular wood (blank dates back to pre-1980).

[just_one_more]

I personally would not do it. Without some support in the neck support to counter the string pull (like the one above where a string gauge was agreed on and the neck built for that gauge) seems like it is asking for trouble. Too many variables with string gauge, weather etc. that can and does cause wood to change.

[enigma]

my custom williams special has no truss rod.

a decision was made about string tension (based on .10's), and (2) bars of aircraft aluminum were used to keep the neck straight.



Beautiful! At least the neck in your guitar has the aircraft aluminum bars!

[HoboMan]

I personally would not do it. Without some support in the neck support to counter the string pull (like the one above where a string gauge was agreed on and the neck built for that gauge) seems like it is asking for trouble. Too many variables with string gauge, weather etc. that can and does cause wood to change.

I agree.

[tsar nicholas]

I'd never not put a truss rod in a neck designed for steel strings. With nylon, the tension is much lower, so the classical builders can get away with it.

And if one is going to put metal reinforcement in the neck, why not just use a truss rod?



Note : I do know that Kleins have no truss rod; I love those guitars but would still be wary unless I had a grip of money lying around for neck replacement if necessary

[enigma]

I personally would not do it. Without some support in the neck support to counter the string pull (like the one above where a string gauge was agreed on and the neck built for that gauge) seems like it is asking for trouble. Too many variables with string gauge, weather etc. that can and does cause wood to change.

The neck on this one was specifically made for 11 gauge with the neck that has a slight bow built into it (the strings bend like a 10 gauge). The neck was tested against 90% and 10% humidity. The original neck wood apparently were with the luthier for at least 5 years before he made the neck from it.

[batsbrew]

i personally would not do it. Without some support in the neck support to counter the string pull (like the one above where a string gauge was agreed on and the neck built for that gauge) seems like it is asking for trouble. Too many variables with string gauge, weather etc. That can and does cause wood to change.

see my previous post.

26 years and running strong.

[Sandy Cheeks]

I'd give it a shot in one guitar -- say a baseball neck for a Tele. What's the worst that can happen? Think of it as an experiment.

[dzo]

I have a Lentz T without a truss rod. The neck/fret board is also all one piece. This guitar is probably the most stable guitar I own.

For me it depends on the builder, how much experience they have and the extent to which I trust them. I know and trust Scott so this wan't an issue. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/Dzo/Lentz/HPIM0157.jpg

[fordfanjpn]

I have a 1954 Harmony H62 archtop that has a baseball bat neck with no truss rod. I use either 10s or 11s on it and it's straight as an arrow. Not bad for a 57 year old guitar. I've compared it to several H62s with truss rods and it definitely has a more resonant, woody sound.

[chequepoint]

Vigier guitars have no truss rod, but lots of carbon fiber :)

[Guitarworks]

Your thoughts on necks made without a truss rod . . . .

:eek::omg

[Elias Graves]

I have two prewar harmony archtops with no truss rods. They both work fine.

EG

[Sean French]

I have a custom made acoustic from a German builder.
No truss rod. It has a Spanish Cedar neck with a Rosewood board BTW.
I bought this guitar in '93 while living in Germany.
The neck has never moved or needed any adjustment.

[VaughnC]

I believe I read that John Suhr feels his new roasted maple necks are stable enough to not need a trussrod.

[EADGBE]

A local luthier made a fantastic electric guitar from scratch except for the electronics and hardware. The neck, however, does not have a truss rod. He told me that both the technique and the way the neck was shaped and made (taking into account the grain of the wood, etc.) practically guarantees itself from warping. It's hard to believe, but the tone unplugged is really resonant unlike any other guitars - it's resonant as if the guitar is semi-hollow.

I'm tempted, but need some opinions, especially from TGP luthiers.What is the neck wood? And what is the fretboard wood?

[walterw]

I believe I read that John Suhr feels his new roasted maple necks are stable enough to not need a trussrod.
right, but i think he just did one as an experiment to prove the concept of the roasted wood idea. i highly doubt he's gonna start selling no-truss rod necks anytime soon.

i've seen too many expensive solid carbon-fiber necks with no rod that had too much relief; to me that renders a pricy high-end neck nothing more than a worthless stick.

if you're a stickler for low action, and can feel the difference between .010" relief and .008" relief, you need a truss rod.

if you imagine you might want to use a different brand or gauge of strings, or a different tuning, at any time over the life of the guitar, you need a truss rod.

[chandlerman]

my custom williams special has no truss rod.

a decision was made about string tension (based on .10's), and (2) bars of aircraft aluminum were used to keep the neck straight.


Sounds like they borrowed that idea from Nathan Daniel. All vintage Danelectros were made that way and I've never seen a bad neck on a vintage Dano. I'm surprised more builders aren't doing that.

[supa-fuzz]

I have a couple of guitars with quartersawn 3 piece korina necks where the truss rod, although it was installed, has never been tighten even needed. I had a conversation about it with the builder one night and he said he doesn't think they are not necessary if the guitar is built right and with proper materials and he installs them because people expect a truss rod to be there, kind like a placebo. Most of his neck blanks have also been glued up for a few years before they are used and carved so stability is not an issue.

[walterw]

All vintage Danelectros were made that way and I've never seen a bad neck on a vintage Dano.
you must not have seen very many vintage danos ;)

[JP~)]

I have a 1930's Kalamazoo acoustic Archtop that doesn't have a truss rod. I've had it for years and it still plays like butter. It's strung with .012 - .053

the neck has been stable as all get out since I've had it

[Sam Sherry]

CF Martin did not start putting adjustable truss-rods in their guitars until, what, late 80s? That's hundreds of thousands of guitars, including some of the finest ever made. The neck-angle is "adjusted" by installing frets with different-size tangs. Thicker tang --> more back-bow. It's an art and a science, and now that Martin uses adjustable truss-rods it's a vanishing craft too.

And that's my point to the OP. Yeah, you can get a stunning guitar without an adjustable truss-rod, but if you change string-gauges or WHEN your guitar is due for a refret you will need to find one of those old-school Martin-experts to do the job. You'll pay (although you're likely to get what you pay for).

[hogy]

my custom williams special has no truss rod.

(2) bars of aircraft aluminum were used to keep the neck straight.



Well, that's a truss rod. Or rather, two truss rods.

"Truss rod" doesn't mean "adjustable rod". Many guitars historically had non adjustable truss rods. Ebony bars in the case of early Martins, steel T-bars, square steel tubes, carbon fiber bars.

"No truss rod" means no neck reinforcement.

[walterw]

CF Martin did not start putting adjustable truss-rods in their guitars until, what, late 80s? That's hundreds of thousands of guitars, including some of the finest ever made. The neck-angle is "adjusted" by installing frets with different-size tangs. Thicker tang --> more back-bow.
oh, absolutely, but most all of them eventually need the neck reset (major surgery), and "straight enough" for a higher-action acoustic is often not straight enough for really good electric guitar action.

do you want to pay for a compression-refret every time you change tunings or string gauges?

that said, yeah, i have a vega banjo from the late '20s with an astonishingly straight no-rod maple neck. banjos have way less tension than guitars, but wow!

i wonder about the quality of the wood they were able to get back then, as well as the hardening effects of many decades of drying/curing. my understanding is that the "roasting" process mimics the effects of age on wood, stabilizing and hardening it.

[mattmccloskey]

I would NEVER buy a guitar without an adjustable rod.

Stability is one thing, but I want the amount of relief to be what I WANT. I don't want to be stuck with one exact string gauge and brand forever, and I don't want one pre-chosen amount of relief.

I don't see a single advantage to a no-truss neck other than bragging rights for a builder.

[hunter]

oh, absolutely, but most all of them eventually need the neck reset (major surgery), and "straight enough" for a higher-action acoustic is often not straight enough for really good electric guitar action.

A neck set really doesn't have anything to do with the truss rod.

I'm OK with no adjustable truss rod, I've been playing two acoustic guitars each for over 30 years that have ebony reinforced non-adjustable necks and the necks always work fine. Of course it helped to know they had been stable for many years when I got em. I have another acoustic with a steel non-adjustable rod that I have also played over 30 years and it too has never had a problem. It was newer when I got it though. I've got electrics that haven't needed adjustments in 20 years. Some need it more often though.

I'm not sure if this is about no truss rod or no adjustable truss rod. I'd be comfortable either way but I'd like to know the manufacturer/builder has some history around the build method used.

hunter

[GadFly]

" -no truss rod! there are (2) rectangular pieces of aircraft aluminum running the length of the fretboard."

How are these not truss rods?

[vortexxxx]

Leo Fender's early broadcasters didn't have a truss rod but there were some problems with the neck warping on some.

[walterw]

leo's early esquires (for about 6 months) didn't, and they immediately had problems.

all broadcasters and on had adjustable rods.

[snouter]

A local luthier made a fantastic electric guitar from scratch except for the electronics and hardware. The neck, however, does not have a truss rod...

Not sure but it sounds like Carmine Street Guitars. I remember hanging out there one afternoon. The owner/luthier is a super cool dude and back then charge about 1.5 for a custom using his mysterious centuries old wood with no truss rod. He had a giant chunk of ebony, like the size of a fire hydrant, as a door stop back then. My guess is in the summer the action will be lower than the winter. Even my quartersawn, hard rock maple necks need truss rod tweaking for proper action.

[Samba]

if you're a stickler for low action, and can feel the difference between .010" relief and .008" relief, you need a truss rod.
That's my experience. I had one of the late 90's CS pine Esquires (no truss). No warping or issues with stability - not being able to dial in my desired relief compromised the fun. Looks like the CS is back doing something similar with the Music Zoo.

http://www.themusiczoo.com/custom/FenderMasterbuiltVintageNotRodStratocaster_Info.ph p

http://www.themusiczoo.com/custom/NotRod1_StressTest.jpg

[DRS]

I want a truss rod, thank you.
It's not so much the stability as the adjustibilty. I want to be in control of the reief of the neck, not my builder. Also, my tastes change. I went to liking a lot of relief to liking a dead flat board to liking a tad of relief. If your builder builds in .010 and you change your mind - your hooped. Plus adjusting relief can help you out as frets wear.

[Joe Naylor]

I would never buy a newer guitar without an adjustable rod, and I'd think twice before buying a vintage guitar without one.

Besides bowing issues, adjustable rods allow player specific set-up. There's no one "correct" relief measurement for any specific gauge of strings. It can be different depending on the player's set-up preferences. There's no logical reason to forego these advantages.

[vortexxxx]

leo's early esquires (for about 6 months) didn't, and they immediately had problems.

all broadcasters and on had adjustable rods.


Oops! I meant Esquire not Broadaster.

[bilbal]

Modulus

[supa-fuzz]

Modulus

Well played:bow

[walterw]

i've seen more than one modulus with too much upbow and no way to fix it!

they have adjustable truss rods now, and that's a good thing.

[edwarddavis]

rather have one, ya never know

[VaughnC]

If a guitar has that something special to its tone and the neck is stable, I could deal with practically any reasonable action issues (except maybe a fretboard radius flatter than about 10"). And I actually prefer my action on the high side as I play mostly clean'ish and don't like to hear any fret buzz or rattle.

[Paul-A]

I have two Martins, one dating from the early 30s, the other from the mid 40s. Neither have any metal neck reinforcement whatsoever - just an ebony bar. The necks are not warped. They sound very different from acoustics with metal in the neck. Though both are very loud, they have less overall sustain and more attack to the note.

[mojocaster.com]

I seem to recall Rich Rice built a guitar w/ a monster fat neck and no trussrod a while back. I'd love to hear his take on that years later.

www.RiceCustomGuitars.com

[bilbal]

i've seen more than one modulus with too much upbow and no way to fix it!

they have adjustable truss rods now, and that's a good thing.

Upbow in the Blackknife type necks? Wow. Were they like that from a bad cast? My Blackknife aint moving. I didn't care for the Genesis series necks with the graphite sleeve design.

[Chris Rice]

I seem to recall Rich Rice built a guitar w/ a monster fat neck and no trussrod a while back. I'd love to hear his take on that years later.

www.RiceCustomGuitars.com

Half dozen or so over the last six years. No problems with any of them, I only hear rave reviews from the owners. Most are spread across different climates in the USA, one is in Australia. The first was my own guitar and we kept a close eye on it through a Chicago season. I changed the pickups a year or so ago for the current owner, and it hadn't moved from the measurements in my notes (this was in a dry Chicago winter, the guitar was built in the wet spring).

http://www.ricecustomguitars.com/instruments/images/044_1.jpg (http://www.ricecustomguitars.com/mid.html?rcg044)

[IPLAYLOUD]

Depends where you travel
A guy on the road going from Florida to Upstate NY in December will need a "tweak" somewhere along the line.

Fender did a run of "Not Rods" a short time ago. Teles? Strats? I don't remember.
I wonder how they have held up.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/eCb7JKQzJojes4w9oMxb4dZ7o1_500.jpg

[Structo]

I view the truss rod as another tool to give me the setup I desire.

If you have a neck without one and the relief is wrong, what can you do about it?

I fine tune the nut and it's slots, then the bridge and saddle height, check the relief and string play, no buzzing? Good to go.

I'm not sure what the snobbery is about with the no truss rods necks.

Like I said, it's just another adjustment tool.

[Tom60]

I´d love to try a Tele prototype (Snakehead) Reissue, no TR either..
There is one now not far from where I live.

I don´t mind higher action - I play so slowly it makes no difference to me :)
The bends are easier.
I adapt to the guitar - within reasonable limits.

So I am seriously considering the Snakehead, more so after reading several
owners raving about the tone, unimpeded by the TR (was it here on TGP ?)

If the proper TR with no "condom" on Les Paul undergoing Historic Makeover improves the tone, then no TR may improve the sound of the Tele - maybe even more so.

[Unburst]

My old Klein had a one piece rosewood neck, no truss rod, never had a problem with neck stability.

[MarkF786]

D,Pergo, one of the best strats out there... the top of the line model doesn't have a truss rod, and the lower end models do but with no tension on them. According to the builder, Stephan, the best sounding vintage guitars he encountered all had slack truss rods.

He uses river-recovered wood and his necks are very fat, so I'm sure that helps. I don't think he could pull it off with a thin neck and average wood.

I had one and it was the nicest guitar I ever owned, but yes, the neck moved with the seasons.

[mrkenny]

I have a 1954 Harmony H62 archtop that has a baseball bat neck with no truss rod. I use either 10s or 11s on it and it's straight as an arrow. Not bad for a 57 year old guitar. I've compared it to several H62s with truss rods and it definitely has a more resonant, woody sound.

I've got a early/mid 50's Harmony H44, BIG neck, no truss rod. No problems.

[mojocaster.com]

Half dozen or so over the last six years. No problems with any of them, I only hear rave reviews from the owners. Most are spread across different climates in the USA, one is in Australia. The first was my own guitar and we kept a close eye on it through a Chicago season. I changed the pickups a year or so ago for the current owner, and it hadn't moved from the measurements in my notes (this was in a dry Chicago winter, the guitar was built in the wet spring).

http://www.ricecustomguitars.com/instruments/images/044_1.jpg (http://www.ricecustomguitars.com/mid.html?rcg044)

Thanks Chris!

[gillman royce]

'64 Harmony Rocket single pup/cutaway. No rod, thinned the poplar neck down - no problems. Love the brightness.

[Rich Rice]

It's fine if the wood is right. On a new build, we assume the responsibility anyway, with a lifetime warranty to the original owner. I like the way the guitars act without a TR, but would not make a claim it is better or worse, just different. So far the TR free necks have been fabulous.

[Brett Faust]

When I had a Travis Bean guitar I never had to adjust the .... wait a second, never mind.
There is a way to deal with a neck that has no truss rod and is a bit out of shape.It can be done without a refret but it can get ugly.
The frets can sometimes be leveled and dressed into shape but it will change the feel, and is a temporary solution at best.

I feel that if you travel from gig to gig in differing conditions you will find the need for a truss rod sooner or later.
Try going from east coast in summer to SoCal in summer, see if the neck moves.

[Chuck King]

A local luthier who I generally respect has told me that the truss rod channel kills tone, and he doesn't put them in his guitars he makes unless it's a build for a specific customer who requires it. But I've spent so much time adjusting relief on my guitars as the seasons change that I would be really, really leery of intentionally going without one.

[VigierUSA]

But I've spent so much time adjusting relief on my guitars as the seasons change that I would be really, really leery of intentionally going without one.
Sorry to bring back a two week old thread, but posting in that Anderson Bulldog thread made me think of this one and decide to weigh in.

I don't think I'd personally want to have an all-wood neck without a trussrod, for just this reason. I guess in some situations you can get away with it, but living in NY I think it would be too much to ask for a neck to NEVER move.

But, if you can stabilize the neck, then there really isn't a need for a rod. Our system is 10% carbon, 90% maple and it really doesn't ever move. It's a godsend for professional musicians who are constantly traveling. If you need to change your action, you can do so at the bridge and/or nut.

A super stiff neck also gives you more clarity and longer sustain, I feel like a neck with a trussrod is built to move and may not get that same level of stiffness. Maybe the Chocolate Maple by Anderson or the Roasted Maple by Suhr would come very close, but I haven't personally played either.

[Eagle1]

If the neck is perfect and stiff enough to cope with different string gauges without a truss rod it is better IMO. I have various Steinbergers that work flawlessly with no rod ,they have a tiny relief machined in that is just perfect with whatever string gauge you use.

[batsbrew]

USACG will do thinner-than-usual necks, and add lengths of graphite under the board for added strength, along with the truss


tho, i think my solution (see earlier post) is superior to that.

[Eagle1]

If it stays put from 8s ~11s with no rod ( and a old Steinberger does ) there is no point in a rod.

[GMGM]

I've played a few, and they sound great. I'm sure most necks sound better without a truss rod.

In fact, you really can't appreciate how much the truss rod affects your tone (in a bad way for the most part) until you hear a neck without one.

But I like to set my necks almost perfectly straight (like maybe 0.0000000001" relief at the 9th fret ;) or less).

If the neck was being custom built for me at those tolerances out of very sturdy materials, I'd absolutely love it. But I'm guessing most of these necks are built with much more relief than I would personally like - so I'll stick with the truss rod.

[Joe Naylor]

If it stays put from 8s ~11s with no rod ( and a old Steinberger does ) there is no point in a rod.

Sure there is. What if you like more relief than average, or perhaps less? Depends on the personal preference of the player.

As far as tone, with or without won't sound better or worse, just different. IMO, if you need to remove the truss rod to achieve a certain tonal result, than you're not thinking hard enough. There's SO many ways to manipulate the tone of a guitar without removing the truss rod. If you dig deep enough, you should be able to design a great sounding guitar without compromising set-up options.

[Mike9]

I built a Tele with a quarter sawn chunky V to C neck. I had it for a couple of years before I even put finish on it. After dressing the frets it's been at .008" relief with 10's for two years now. It's the most resonant guitar I own. Part of that is letting the swamp ash body get good and dry before finishing and an even bigger part is the neck.

I'd like to try a QS roasted maple neck with no rod.

[19181911]

I've had a musikraft no TR neck for over a year now and have had no issues. The humidity ranges from 30 - 90 percent, temps from 50 to 95 F at my house.

The partscaster it is on is my most resonant guitar.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/just-pickups/109212d1326596178-best-non-invasive-acoustic-pickup-telecaster-vintage-style-bridge-100_1733-jpg

The neck is quartersawn maple and is .95 at the first fret and 1.00 at the 12th fret.

Musikraft is now making these as a production neck... The Tone Monster... a good name for these.

[PB Wilson]

It is true that many necks will never need adjustment, but I'd much rather whip out an allen wrench if things needed tweaking instead of pulling frets, replacing them with thicker or thinner tangs, heat bending or sanding the fingerboard to get it to play like I want it to play.

[jp1977]

I wouldn't want a guitar without atruss rod because I like to have it there just in case. And with different climates, altitudes, temperatures , string gauges , and the fact that all wood is unique and subject to change it just seems foolish to get a custom ordered guitar without one.

[EADGBE]

I wouldn't buy an electric or steel string acoustic without a truss rod.

[americananalog]

If it's sufficiently reinforced with carbon rods so it never moves, sure - I can live without a truss rod.

[Rich Rice]

If it's sufficiently reinforced with carbon rods so it never moves, sure - I can live without a truss rod.

:rotflmaoNow That's funny! LOL

[batsbrew]

I wouldn't want a guitar without atruss rod because I like to have it there just in case. And with different climates, altitudes, temperatures , string gauges , and the fact that all wood is unique and subject to change it just seems foolish to get a custom ordered guitar without one.

my custom strat hybrid, built in 1986, with only aircraft aluminum bars as a truss, is still dead straight.

that's 26 yeas, in human years.
LOL

and it's been strung with everything from .008's to .011's........

it's been living in Charleston SC (HUMID), jax fla (humid), Charlotte NC (dry-humid) and now Salt Lake City (super dry)

and not a single issue.

now, this is first hand experience talking.

[batsbrew]

Williams Special
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1818/williamsclose.jpg

williams full:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6304/15646818.jpg


http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/2669/bodyback.jpg

[Ciroxin]

Vigier guitars have no truss rod, but lots of carbon fiber :)


Not that much, only 10% if I understand correctly. The neck of my Vigier is stable as a rock.

[Polynitro]

I think its dumb.

Bill Kirchen had one that warped a week after he bought it.

[Chris Rice]

I think its dumb.

Bill Kirchen had one that warped a week after he bought it.
Who built it?

[burningyen]

I'm pretty sure this is Kirchen's Kelly that had the neck issue. It developed a warp shortly after he got it, so he had it shaved and refretted and it's been stable since:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/Lost_N_Austin/Bill%20Kirchen/KirchenRig.jpg?t=1318889423

[Random]

I've got a classical without trussrod.
Neck like a banana.
Sounds great.

[Rich Rice]

Classicals are a different animal.. built to different specs, from usually different woods, for different (lower) tensions. I've had a couple that were pretty much unplayable- truss rod or not.

My 60's Gibson classical plays great, and I have never even looked to see if it has a TR-- maybe? LOL..

Necks designed to be TR free have been fine for us to date.. Of course, we take everything into consideration- moisture content, grain orientation, tightness of grain, etc.. If somebody just chooses to build a TR free neck out of whatever wood they have, well, they will likely be sorry down the road.

The worst neck I ever built was from apple wood-- even with a truss rod, that thing won't settle down. I won't ever sell it, because it is substandard. Chris has had to grind the frets way down, I have to adjust the truss rod almost every time I decide to play it. But it sure is cool... Glad I put a two way rod in that one.

We haven't had any problems to date with TR free necks- and we have them across the US and in Australia.. possibly elsewhere if they have been purchased second hand.. The difference may lie in choosing each piece of wood carefully right from the start, and keeping them pretty chunky.

They are definitely not for everybody, and we do mostly truss rod necks- but I'm not opposed to them. They have a unique sound that I like.

[Polynitro]

Fender Custom shop sold a 1950RI Esquier with no truss rod but they guarrenteed the neck-if it warped they replaced it. That would be the only way Id buy one, or if I were Bill Kirchen and could get it replaced for free.

Too much risk for zero gain other than penis-ego.

[Rich Rice]

Fender Custom shop sold a 1950RI Esquier with no truss rod but they guarrenteed the neck-if it warped they replaced it. That would be the only way Id buy one, or if I were Bill Kirchen and could get it replaced for free.

Too much risk for zero gain other than penis-ego.

LOL.. Yeah, we warranty them to the original owner for lifetime. ;)

[batsbrew]

I think its dumb.
guess you just completely skipped over my post. :facepalm

[Polynitro]

guess you just completely skipped over my post. :facepalm

pretty much.

there was a thread recently on TDPRI about no rod guitars and out of the 4 people who had one 2 had warped necks. Thats 50% fail rate. Pretty bad IMO.

To say they are dumb is a bit harsh, but thats my gut reaction. I have no need to gamble on something as silly as this.

[TresGatos]

I have built 4 that are out "in the wild" for over a year now. No issues and they are outstanding players.

Not good for me, I really need a double-action truss living in Montreal with up-down weather and humidity and being a lover of the lowest action possible.
I do think that unplugged they sound way cool. I don't play unplugged, or clean, ever.

[batsbrew]

my success rate has been 100%, over a 26 year period.

that probably skews the numbers you are seeing.
heheh

[Chris Rice]

my success rate has been 100%, over a 26 year period.

that probably skews the numbers you are seeing.
heheh
Your aluminum bars are truss rods!

[swa]

guess you just completely skipped over my post. :facepalm

my success rate has been 100%, over a 26 year period.

that probably skews the numbers you are seeing.
heheh

Your aluminum bars are truss rods!

batsbrew, I think you may have skipped over the numerous posts telling you what Chris Rice just repeated. We get it, you like your guitar, cool. But, your truss rod equiped (reinforced) guitar is not what is being discussed in this thread.

Interesting thread by the way. I'd check out a truss rod-less guitar. Also informative for me, I didn't know martin used ebony as a reinforcement.

[batsbrew]

LOL

[atomicmassunit]

I wouldn't even consider buying one, unless it's an el cheapo guitar like a harmony or teisco or something. I have yet to see a builder whose idea of relief matches what I like, including Martin, PRS acoustics, and Composite Acoustics. It's an absolute must.

[Laurent Brondel]

I didn't know martin used ebony as a reinforcement.The ebony rod in pre-war Martins does very little, if anything: ebony is marginally stronger than mahogany and much less stable. The long hide glue joint must add some strength, but again marginally.
Those guitars had bar frets, and compression fretting is really what holds those relatively thin necks.
War time Gibsons had V maple reinforcements and T-frets, but the necks were on the thick side, like early blackguard Tellies, in the .900 - 1.000 range.
With 10s I can see a trussrod-less meaty blackguard type neck holding out fine, but the maple has to be without internal tension, dead straight, either flat or quarter sawn (not rift), no runout and well seasoned.

[Rich Rice]

I'd be leery of a TR free flat sawn neck. The quarter sawn maple is much less likely to warp from string pull, and well seasoned is imperative.

As an interesting footnote, the bigger quartersawn maple necks with a truss rod can be tough to adjust- the wood is stiffer than the truss rod..

[Mike9]

Funny - when ever I've seen one in the emporium it usually doesn't last long.

[Rich Rice]

Funny - when ever I've seen one in the emporium it usually doesn't last long.

That's because they are very cool, and fairly rare. Lots of doomsayers, most of whom have never played one.. LOL

[bluesjuke]

see my previous post.

26 years and running strong.


Your guitar basically has truss bars in it, that's equivalent to a non adjustable truss rod.

I pretty much would be alright with a no truss rod neck if I really liked it, however I do like being able to put the relief where I want it.
Especially if you decide you want to vary it on occasion due to nothing more than preference.

[s2y]

That's because they are very cool, and fairly rare. Lots of doomsayers, most of whom have never played one.. LOL

When ya live in an area with massive humidity shifts, something you can adjust becomes a little important. Even then, I don't want to be married to a single relief setting which is why Steinberger eventually added one, even though the neck was stable enough not to need one.

[Boris Bubbanov]

When ya live in an area with massive humidity shifts, something you can adjust becomes a little important. Even then, I don't want to be married to a single relief setting which is why Steinberger eventually added one, even though the neck was stable enough not to need one.

I like this post. I've been in restaurants where you just come in and Tony and his staff start bringing around wonderful dishes and you dig in. I loved it until I stopped eating meat. I couldn't know if he'd bring out almost all seafood or if he liked the beef and lamb he found whilst shopping that time. Not everyone wants their guitar set up the same way and no rod means no adjustment afaiac.

Secondly, Rich and I just disagree about the sound. I like a very well made inobtrusive truss rod like USACG does, on a fat fat neck. Often arrives adjusted exactly as it will remain in finished form. I like the way it sounds over a no truss rod neck. And while "guitar players" as a whole often have not tried a no truss rod neck, I bet most TGPers have. I suspect I make so few adjustments because New Orleans is fairly steadily humid (like today) and because these 1" thick necks, 1.70 inches at the nut are overengineered in size, made of very stable maple and they're not being challenged very much.

[Rich Rice]

When ya live in an area with massive humidity shifts, something you can adjust becomes a little important. Even then, I don't want to be married to a single relief setting which is why Steinberger eventually added one, even though the neck was stable enough not to need one.

I'm not arguing with anybody, as I stated they aren't for everybody- simply trying to dispel some myths. I live in Chicago, where the humidity shifts from very, very high in the summer to almost nothing (like right now) in the winter. Our temps go from upper 90's to -25 degrees.

A properly built TR free neck is a different animal and offers some benefits and some drawbacks. The biggest factors being that bigger manufacturers don't want the responsibility of replacing the few that do go bad, and the common misconception among consumers that they go bad all the time.

I prefer a medium/high action, as it facilitated my style of play- and would not have a problem with a TR free neck- as long as I built it. I know the history of the wood, and what measures have been taken to ensure its stability. IMO, very close action is not desirable. it impedes tone and makes bending much more difficult. If I wanted to run super low action (won't happen), I would insist on a fully adjustable truss rod. It would be a must.

[Rich Rice]

I don't disagree with you, Boris. In fact, at the moment I don't own one TR free neck. Every time I build one, it gets snapped up... Must be a reason.

As far as "most" TGP'ers, I seriously doubt it. Many spend more time on the computer than on their guitars. Speaking of which-- I gotta run. LOL Have fun, kids! ;)

[hunter]

The ebony rod in pre-war Martins does very little, if anything: ebony is marginally stronger than mahogany and much less stable. The long hide glue joint must add some strength, but again marginally.
Those guitars had bar frets, and compression fretting is really what holds those relatively thin necks.

Martin stopped using bar frets in 34. The use of ebony reinforcment continued in the war years when bar frets were long gone.

hunter

[s2y]

I prefer a medium/high action

...in which case, the changes in relief don't impact your setup nearly as much. With low action and straight relief, you'd quickly hear any back bow and your action is ~25% higher and easy to feel.


As far as "most" TGP'ers, I seriously doubt it. Many spend more time on the computer than on their guitars. Speaking of which-- I gotta run. LOL Have fun, kids! ;)

What else do you expect us to do at work? Work?!

[Rich Rice]

Tell me something I don't know.. LOL
Yep, I've been working since 4:30 AM, had to leave to ride my bicycle to work in the snow, now at my other job- more guitars.. Go figure..

[s2y]

Tell me something I don't know.. LOL
Yep, I've been working since 4:30 AM, had to leave to ride my bicycle to work in the snow, now at my other job- more guitars.. Go figure..

Right now, I have a plumber over and my wife is home, so I can't play the gear she doesn't know about, which happens top be the ones I want to play. :rotflmao

Due to racing season approaching, I have a feeling I should ride about 3-4 hours today, too.

[Laurent Brondel]

I'd be leery of a TR free flat sawn neck. The quarter sawn maple is much less likely to warp from string pull, and well seasoned is imperative.Not to argue fine point, but perfectly flat-sawn is as strong as quartersawn. However, rift-sawn is potentially weaker and naturally more prone to warpage.
Martin stopped using bar frets in 34. The use of ebony reinforcment continued in the war years when bar frets were long gone.A lot of the ebony reinforced necks fretted with t-frets eventually bowed, which is why Martin preferred to use the T-bar steel rod with t-frets. The ebony rods were used during WWII due to war steel shortages.
Even with t-frets it is possible to do compression fretting by using different sized tangs. However, bar frets are just more effective at this.

[Rich Rice]

You can use flat sawn if you want- it is strong enough- but more prone to warpage. Quarter sawn is stiffer, thus less prone to deflection. When my name is on the headstock, I gotta use what I know works for me. ;)

[FLICKOFLASH]

Trussrods add tension to the wood which change and may rob tone.If the neck was made thick enough with quartersawn wood and fingerboard .A neck jig with the neck tuned with desired gauge strings could be put into a jig which allows and holds the wood under that tension so relief can be added into the fingerboard prefretting for those gauge strings.

[FLICKOFLASH]

I'm pretty sure this is Kirchen's Kelly that had the neck issue. It developed a warp shortly after he got it, so he had it shaved and refretted and it's been stable since:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/Lost_N_Austin/Bill%20Kirchen/KirchenRig.jpg?t=1318889423
keep in mind that is made of pine & i think not quartersawn