Going direct at church....POD or ?

[rpavich]

Hi,
I'm going to try again....going to play in the worship band at church...

I've got a Dr Z Z28 and Ghia which I love of course...

The church only "goes direct to PA" and who plays there generally sounds good.

Here is the problem..I don't have any equipment to go direct and the wife will kill me if I spend another 200.00 + on this....

is there something that will be adequate for me? I hate buzzy fizzy fake guitar sounds...argggg..

the options I've looked at seem to be

1.) SansAmp ( I had one a long time ago...not bad)

2.) Pod 2.0 (never owned one)

3.) Beringher VAmp (mixed reviews on harmony-central)

I realize I won't get the ultimate sound from these things but I want it passable enough that I won't vomit...

Also, If I'm going to do this, I wanna just walk in with a box in my hand, plug in, and play....

UPDATE: I just bought a SansAmp Tri-A.C from MF....I read the reviews and it seemed to be the best choice...

But that doesn't mean I don't still wanna discuss it

bob:D

[TomK]

I've been using a POD 2.0 for many years now as my "plug in and play" church box and I am very happy with it. I get sounds that work well and sit well in the mix. I often use my analog pedalboard with the POD to get a little more variation but I also have the standard Line 6 Floor board controller that does a good job.

I also have a Behringer V Amp Pro - it is more of a toy for me at this point. It has some very good sounds and excellent FX but I don't have the controller so it is pretty useless for me live but I have it sitting around in my office so I can plug in and mess with it. I think I paid right at $110 for it....so not bad.

[David-R]

The only downside to the Tri-AC is that it doesn't have any effects. Not a problem if you don't need them.

I did the POD direct (both POD 2.0 and PODxt) for a few years and I was never even close to happy with my tone.

[ASATClassic]

I've been down this road and then some. I'd recommend getting a small, low powered amp (8 watts or less). Get an amp stand and aim it back at you (like a wedge monitor).

Trust me, you'll be much happier. Even if you use a POD, it'll have to be coming through a monitor for you to hear. Might as well use a guitar amp.

[rpavich]

The only downside to the Tri-AC is that it doesn't have any effects. Not a problem if you don't need them.

No, I think they can add reverb at the board...

I did the POD direct (both POD 2.0 and PODxt) for a few years and I was never even close to happy with my tone.

Not a good sign, but then again; I'm looking for the "not so bad I puke" factor....not a "Dr-Z-in-a-Box" I don't have the cash for that...

I've been down this road and then some. I'd recommend getting a small, low powered amp (8 watts or less). Get an amp stand and aim it back at you (like a wedge monitor).

Well, again...cash is an issue and I haven't seen any amps of that wattage for the same price as a SansAmp...

Also, by my thinking; if I can't bring my amp, then I wanna just:

1.) Plug in a Low z cable
2.) Plug my guitar in
3.) Play

Not hook up tons of gear...

Bob

[MAZ]

Couple of thoughts from experience:

1. Go to a new church!!! LOL

2. Palmer DI (the one with the load box) -way out of your price range though, but worth mentioning.

3. Speaker in a box. I haven't used any of these but there are apparently a few good ones out there. Where the speaker is enclosed in a soundproof case and miced internally.

4. Small amp- Fender Pro Jr. It's PERFECT for church and sounds amazing. You'll have a second recording amp with it too. You CAN find them for just over $200 though they often are closer to $300.

Finally, if the church is making all you guys go direct, talk them into buying the gear for it. It's not necessarily a normal part of everyone's rig. Our old church had about 3 or 4 POD's when they started making us go direct, which, coincidentally is when I found a new church!! (just kidding)

[raz]

I currently use the POD XT Live, and I've been quite happy with it. No, it isn't perfect, but we work at such low stage volume that ANY amp would be problematic. And I've really come to like not having to lug amp, guitars, pedalboard, etc. to church.

But if you're looking at a $200 budget, I'd go with a Behringer V-Amp Pro and your pedalboard. I used one for a while and only switched because it drops out momentarily when switched with MIDI. I got mine used, perfect, for like $110.

Nevertheless, the V-Amp Pro has a killer Blackface Twin model that with pedals was very, very usable and controllable and it was really a very good platform for copping tones from the worship CD's that inspire our song selections.

If you don't mind lugging some pedals along, and don't mind not being able to directly switch the V-Amp pro with midi during a song, it's a really good option.

In my experience, you're just not going to get to be a Tone Monster at church. Even with low powered amps and wedge cabinets, you're going to be loud and it's going to be a struggle with other members of the team and the sound guys. Isolation cabinets are great in theory, but most churches that I've seen don't have a good enough FOH system or soundman to EQ it right, and without good EQ and mains speakers, an ISO cab is going to sound as awful and buzzy as anything else. And if you think the sound guy is going to let you set the EQ and then leave it alone, you're dreamin'.

There ARE exceptions...some churches just don't have a problem with stage volume. Others have really great sound men and equipment.

But I've worked in a lot of churches and most (by far) were running 4-bus Mackie boards through cabinetry of average quality and very little outboard capability...not to mention the sound guys were usually good-hearted volunteers with next to zero experience or musical skill. In the worst cases, they weren't so good-hearted and instead got delusions of grandeur and importance. Nothin' you can do in that case except nod and smile and make the best of it.


And in that case, you run direct and you find ways to make it work. The XT Live works for me. The V-Amp Pro did too.

Since you've gone ahead with the Tri A.C. a couple of supplements can be a big help. With the SansAmp stuff, actually with modelers too, I've found the VHT Valvulator can really help the feel and tone. I use the RC Booster in front of my XT Live and it does a good job loading the pickups which helps. A decent EQ on the back end before you send the signal to the house will also go a long way toward making you happier. My experience with the SansAmp stuff is it's still subject to the vagaries of the board and the sound guy, so if you can slip your own EQ (or some sort of cab simulation, but EQ is cheaper) in, you'll be happier.

Also, humbuckers work better in a direct environment than single coils, in my experience. They're more forgiving and less likely to get shrill.

Best of luck to you...and grace, and peace and all that good stuff...

R
A
Z

[Perry D.]

A V-Stack Tweedy with the gain knob off works great an a clean amp simulator going direct to the board. A Pro Jr. is still your best bet...nothing can take the place of tubes!

[R3deemed]

I use a Behringer Ultra-GI (the red one). The signal from the amp goes the the box direct to the board and the speaker load goes to my 2x12. It's OK. Stage volume can be an issue, but I like be able to hear myself comfortably in the mix.

[brightboy]

Originally posted by ASATClassic
I've been down this road and then some. I'd recommend getting a small, low powered amp (8 watts or less). Get an amp stand and aim it back at you (like a wedge monitor).

Trust me, you'll be much happier. Even if you use a POD, it'll have to be coming through a monitor for you to hear. Might as well use a guitar amp.

I agree!!!!

I use a Peavey Classic 30 slightly angled up at me with the rear of the amp firing into a
ClearSonic S4-2 Sorber acoustic baffle panel:

http://www.clearsonic.com/a2-4_amp_shield.html

http://www.clearsonic.com/sorber.html

Seems to work pretty well....

Cheers,

Jeff

[bobotwt]

How's it going? I also use and love the Behringer Ultra-G. I lead worship (sing and play lead) and it is a lifesaver. I used to use tube amps (Fender Blues Deluxe and GT Soul-o 45) with my pedalboard, and I still do when I play out. But as you guys know, in most churches, its just not feasible to get a tube amp cookin' at the levels they want you to play at.

With my pedalboard, I get very close to the same sound with the ultra-g that I got with my amps set for a blackface type clean pedal-base. Of course, a good tube amp has much better tube and speaker compression and feel that just can't be emulated. But you're not getting a great deal of that at the volumes that most churches have going. If you have some decent pedals that sound good with a clean amp, they'll sound good with this. And its only $35. Every guitar player should have one even if for a backup amp.

I've been learning how to work in these low to mid volume church situations for a few years now and I've found some solutions. Email me if you have some questions. Take care.

Josh

[rpavich]

UPDATE:

After reading the advice on this thread I cancelled the SansAmp Tri-AC and got the V-amp.

For $99.00 it will probably do the job....and the sound will suck compared to a regular tube amp but the ease of just sitting down/plugging in/playing is a selling point...

I'll let you know when I get it and if I like it....

bob:D

[Twin63]

I used a POD for a couple of years at church, although I never ran it direct (I ran it through the power amp of my Fender Stage 112SE). I had a few patches I liked that sounded pretty good, at least to me. I'm sure the V-Amp will be adequate for your needs. I think that we as guitarists constantly search for the best tone possible, while 99% of the congregation probably doesn't know, or care, anything about guitar tone. I don't mean that we shouldn't give God our best but that we should do the best with what we are given. I'm sure your congregation will think your tone is great! BTW, what part of WV are you from? I lived is southern WV for 34 years.

Keith

[drbob1]

I've never been happy with the POD sound (the gear not the band:D I've been using a Roland VG8, which sounds really good and reacts well, but it's not an amp and it's more than $200.

I've kept a Sansamp (the old version) as a backup in my gig bag for years, and on the rare occaisions when my amp has gone down have gotten complements on how it sounds. I set it for a clean Fender sound, then push it with my usual pedalboard. You do have to hook it up to a direct box since there's no XLR output, but it does sound and feel like a real amp.

Unfortunately if the rest of the band is going direct, even a 10w tube amp is likely to be too loud...

[mentoneman]

i am the soundman at our church. i've mixed for hundreds of gtr players and have been playing gtr for 20+ years.


i personally tried using a POD v2.0 to downscale from a triaxis rack and i could never get into it onstage, even when plugging into a small fender combo.

i had a vamp and didn't think it was very convincing, compared to the pod.

from a FOH perspective, the rackmount POD xt is a pretty good sounding device and a worthy DI solution....the floorboard version may be cool for your live needs.

the Vox tonelab floorboard thing is also pretty nice and has better vintage clean and low gain tones than the POD, but the POD has the modern clean and super distortion sound advantage.

the best overall DI tones i've heard is the Boss GT-5 or 6 floorboards...the 6 is the one with the tube in it.

the reduced "tube realism" compared to the vox and POD are not as apparent live as they may be in the studio, it cuts really well in the mix, and the Boss fx are superior to the other boards.

[JohnLutz]

Anyone compared the Zoom G2 to the current crop of modellers? It's cheap and is supposed to have a next generation processor.

John

[justicetones]

OK I am so sorry I am late to the party. I speak from experience on this one as well as many of you seem to also. Going direct sucks in my opinion BUT sometimes it is the only option. One church that I play at sometimes has no stage volume and all in ear monitors. I usually put my amp off stage now but had to contemplate the nasty option of direct. In the studio and when I traveled I used a Mesa V-Twin pedal. They are discontinued but plentiful on ebay for 200-300 dollars. I have also used this in front of my single channel amps with great results.

The V-twin has a switch to select between the console output and the headphone output mode and a special separate 1/4" output. I have used a POD for all of the effects at the same time. Plug into the POD, set it for amp and then plug that into the Mesa V-Twin pedal.

There are three channels and you can easily footswitch between two, and if you have a light and 10 1/2 or smaller shoe size you could get all three. The thing sounds better than any POD I have heard and I have owned and tried them. POD's can be a useful tool and have their place in the equation, but I have found in my experience that they can not replace an amp for someone that is used to an amp sound. It is the speaker interaction and the analog factors that are the difference. I would even say that for the V-twin pedal but to me they sound the closest to a real amp if going direct.

Chris

[royd]

I'll add another opinion even though you already made your choice.

a Roland Amp Factory...

I've compared them to the POD's, behringer and other modelers and they just sound more authentic.

There are no effects so you need your stomp boxes but you can set one amp model in memory and another on manual and switch between the two and a by-pass to the PA for essentially three channels.

The downside is that setting the amp in memory and getting the three volumes in the same ballpark is tricky. Still, each of the models sound good. They clean up nicely when you back off your volume too.

I use mine as an OD sometimes with an amp or direct to the board or for recording.

royd

[raz]

Originally posted by justicetones
In the studio and when I traveled I used a Mesa V-Twin pedal. They are discontinued but plentiful on ebay for 200-300 dollars. I have also used this in front of my single channel amps with great results.



The V-Twin is oft overlooked as a high-gain pedal; but in fact, it can do a really nice Fenderish clean tone if you're willing to learn how to use it. It's a lot more versatile than it gets credit for, especially if you try dropping lower gain preamp tubes in it. I had the rackmount version (has it really been almost ten years ago? Yowzah) and with a Mesa 20/20 it's a dynamite little rig.

So, yeah, it's definitely a workable option...

R
A
Z

[justicetones]

The V-Twin is oft overlooked as a high-gain pedal; but in fact, it can do a really nice Fenderish clean tone if you're willing to learn how to use it. It's a lot more versatile than it gets credit for, especially if you try dropping lower gain preamp tubes in it


yeah I still own the rackmount version also and have a simul class 395 for the power amp. I know we are getting old. I bought them brand new. I was amazed though at how good the V-twin pedal sounded plugged in direct. On the clean sounds you don't really miss the speaker sound and on the dirty it is only marginally noticable when compared to other DI options.

Chris

[Brett Valentine]

Sorry I'm late. I agree, the POD is not the best sounding thing out there, but you can get the job done with it. I still using the original POD for church situations where amps are not welcome (though at the moment, I'm using a Tech 21 Trademark 60 with the speaker bypassed, but that's more than $200.00 also).

I never liked the way the heavier driven amp settings sounded (always either very compressed and lost in the mix, or when turned up, too overpowering). My best advice with the POD is to set up a few different dry, clean amps (Fender based, Marshall based, Vox based, wierd combos) and run a pedalboard with a good clean boost pedal into it, or run it after the gain pedals, in front of the boost, time based pedals and reverb. Different sounds each way you try it.

That did the job for me for a few years.

Brett

[Kewlpack]

I quite like the V-Amp Pro - but the delay when switching patches could be an issue ONLY if you need to switch within a song... otherwise, it's not an issue really.

I also have the GT8 which is my "tone central"... you can get some superb tones out of it too... but it takes a learning curve... it is a VERY flexible and capable piece of hardware.

The V-Amp Pro is a good choice. You'll probably want to get the FCB1010 MIDI pedalboard to go with it ($150?)...

Good luck!

[rpavich]

Update:
Played the SansAmp Tri-A.C. at church last night....no go...just didn't have "it" for me...sounded thin and lacking.

I also got my V-amp 2 and that was horrible....sending both back today


I'm going to just use my old Digitech Genesis 3 with Midi footcontroller....nothing sounds good to me direct..

I'll keep you all posted...this is getting depressing...:(

bob

[rpavich]

bump for more advice

[rpavich]

bump for more advice

[Ed Reed]

A Palmer PDI-09 isn't all that high $150.00 new, check ebay or a Behringer direct box. You can build a load to replace the speaker. Or, put the amp behind or under the stage, cover the speaker. If there's a will there's a way. I've also heard of using the DPI-09 instead of an amp at all, pedal board into Palmer into board. That's about as direct as it can get. Possibly a Hot Plate turned down.

[Ed Reed]

http://www.palmergear.com/pdi09.html

[rpavich]

Maybe something that I've been meaning to add that I haven't is this:

There is NO stage volume except what comes out of the personal monitors....drums are electronic pad type...


By the way that Palmer Palmer PDI-09 looks great if it mutes the speaker....does it?

bob

[Ed Reed]

No but a load resistor added to the equation would. Mike B at Mesa Boogie built me one years ago for about $30.00. Ask around here on the GP, there's some one with one for sell or knows where to get one.

[justicetones]

I still say you should consider trying the Mesa Boogie V-Twin pedal. Not many people ever explored this capacity of the unit. They are easily found on ebay. It has A speaker simulated direct 1/4" out that is pretty convincing. I have tried a few different direct situations and this is one of the only ones I will use if I am forced to go direct. The clean sounds and reacts just like an amp (fenderish). The dirty is not wimpy or fuzzy and really does sound really close to an amp close miked. You should try it.

Chris

[Ed Reed]

I don't know if you understood everything I said about the PDI-09, you can use it as a direct and not use an amp at all. I have heard people talk about it and they said it worked. I've never tried it myself though.

[Ed Reed]

Maybe this could do it

http://www.webervst.com/load.html

there's also a guy who posts here

http://www.christianmusicianradio.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi


who builds something like that, you'll have to ask what his name is as I've forgotten but some of the guys over there are using his thingy and they sware by it. Good luck.

[fatang]

If you can stretch you budget a bit, I'm a big fan of the Vox Tonelab, not a fuzzy or buzzy sound to be found. I didn't read if you have a MIDI controller or not, but many of the settings are such that you can use playing dynamics and your volume control to go from clean to dirty.

Robert

[justicetones]

I know someone else that uses one of those although I have not heard it or used it. He is a professional engineer and is fairly picky. That being said, he seems happy. Good option to entertain.

Chris

[rpavich]

jakeddy,
I went to the christian musicians forum and didn't see any topics that mentioned this device...so I posted my problem to see what they'd say..

Thanks everyone....going direct sucks without 1000.00 worth of load boxes and stuff!

bob

[rpavich]

Ok you guys,
one last question: will this work?

ZHead--THD Hotplate--mixer.

THD says that this thing can be set to "load" and take the place of your speaker...does that mean that you can leave the speaker box at home?

bob

[bluesdoc]

Late to the party here but........

I've played with modelers to eliminate stage volume for a few years. Been through the Boss GTseries, POD, PODxt, Tubeman, Tonelab, etc, etc. The best bang for buck imho is the digitech GNX series. You can find a used GNX2 for pretty cheap. However, HOWEVER, with any modeler, the quality of what you get out if it is totally dependent on the time you put in to tweaking it and it takes A LONG TIME to optimize their performance. And, you need to dial it in with a mixer and powered monitors (at home) to try to re-create what's going to happen on stage. It takes a lot of focus, trial and error, and it helps to get suggestions from any of the online owner's boards. Do not, and I must repeat, DO NOT expect any of the modelers to sound good out of the box. The presets are generally unuseable. Lead tones can be iffy. I found, after literally hundreds of hours over a period of years, that my best tones came from a few clean patches I'd created and then using my favorite lead pedals du jour.

I should also add that I no longer play in the band that required no stage volume and it's heaven to be playing live with great tube amps again. I'll never go back. It's a compromise you make for the sake of the situation, and that might not change in a church setting, but playing live with tubes and cones is the real deal and feels and sounds sooooo much better. Life (for me, anyway) is too short for those compromises anymore. But then, I'm gettin' old.......... :rolleyes: ;)

btw, I have a GNX3 (modeler with built in recorder) that I might sell. I also have the Palmer PGA 04 and it does work very well, but it's way over your budget.

jon

[rpavich]

OK,
Two approaches in the mix.

1.) Use my old Genesis 3 direct...not good but cheap.

2.) Swap my airbrake for a hotplate and go direct with my head. I've got a behringer G100 direct box to plug it into.

The advantage of the Genesis is that it's one little box to haul, the advantage of taking my Z head and hotplate is that it should sound good.

I'll let you all know how it goes.

bob

[WonderDude]

Ok! I've just gotta get my "two cents" in! :dude

I also have played and lead worship at churches.

Here's a real cheap way to get some pretty awesome tone...

Drive... For around $20 - 30 you can get a an Arion drive pedal from Musicians friend. Or if you have a nicer one use that. I have a Boss BD-2 and OD-3. These work really well.

Effects... Go to ebay and get something like a Korg AX1G for like $35. Or if you already have something for effects, then all the better.

Cabinet... (This is the key portion to this solution.) Behringer GI100 for only $35. This is a direct box with a cabinet simulator. You will be amazed at the coolness of tone you can get when running any overdrive or distortion in front of this into a regular PA. So basically, you can get great direct tone for around $100 starting from scratch.

The Rest... Of course the more you spend the better you can make your tone. So, as you grow your pedal board, you may want to add some things. I am using an AD-5 to control warmth and tone. I have heard allot of great things about the VHT Valvulator. That will probably be my next toy.


Ok here's another solution that I found to work well... Get a GNX and put it in front of a Boss AD-5 (acoustic processor). Plug it into the Piezo insert. Turn the body knob to the 9 o-clock position. Tweak the bass/mids/trebble to your liking. This will create a very warm tone trough all the GNX's amp models. Why you ask? Have no clue. :confused: But trust me! I wouldn't play the GNX without the AD-5 anymore. :cool:

Ok so that was maybe a little more than two cents. But at least I saved you some gas money! :cool:

[LOCUSTFIST]

maybe somebody mentioned it.

i play in a similar setting and run sound....we isolate guitar cabs under the stage.

Isolate the cab backstage or pickup a readymade iso cab (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Randall-Isolation-12-Speaker-Cab?sku=480371)

i have had guitar players complain about there tone being ruined from a 30+' cable run to there cab...but it's better than going direct

[Analog Assassin]

I've been using my poor man's palmer rig, which is basically a weber miniMASS (an attenuator, very good and very reasonable price) to take the volume down or all the way out (can be used as a dummy load) and a Ultra-G DI box. The Ultra-G has got a really good (for the price) 4x12 speaker simulator.
I can use the attenuator to control my stage volume, and the mixer board gets a consistent level from my amp. I can go 100 percent direct, or I can mix my own amp's speakers into the mix.
Even when I do blend in my own speakers, I can turn down the speakers all the way to fine-tune the sound for FOH and monitors, then blend in my own amp's speakers.
It makes for a flexible rig.

[Rick Towne]

Some general questions here:

What kind of church has no amps, no drums, no stage volume and in ear monitors? What is the theory behind this kind of arrangement? Is it not to offend? I've been a member of the worship team in several large (1,500+ sanctuaries) and played in about 15 other large and small churches in northern and southern (my home) California (4square-AG-Vineyard- Nondem), as well as the warehouse size Toronto Airport church, and have never been in a situation where I could not use my own amplifier, from a Princeton reverb on up to a BF Twin Reverb, all properly controlled, of course. Don't you have volume from the congregation singing? No real drums and guitars? How do you have meaningful interaction and relationship between the musicians and singers? Is it doable because the sets are all planned out without any opportunity for variation or improvisation? And, the final question.....is it fun (in the right way)? What don't I understand?

[ButchR]

We use in ear monitors and I play through a Komet into an iso cab. But I have to say that I was very impressed with a visting guitar player the other night that had a Pod Xt Live.His tones were very good through my in ear monitors. So much in fact that I went and bought one yesterday.

He said that he spent some time tweaking it but I gotta tell you that I think this might be an answer to a lot of situations. I'm gonna try mine direct next weekend after some time with it.

[yZe]

Good thread.I have been pondering an ampless rig for weeks now

I would like something that fits onto a pedal board and not necesarilly as big as an XT or GE-6

Can I just plug an EQ into that Berhinger Ultra G DI Box along w/my other pedals?

Are there TUBE DI's which I can look for to try this out?

[yZe]

Some general questions here:

What kind of church has no amps, no drums, no stage volume and in ear monitors? What is the theory behind this kind of arrangement? Is it not to offend? I've been a member of the worship team in several large (1,500+ sanctuaries) and played in about 15 other large and small churches in northern and southern (my home) California (4square-AG-Vineyard- Nondem), as well as the warehouse size Toronto Airport church, and have never been in a situation where I could not use my own amplifier, from a Princeton reverb on up to a BF Twin Reverb, all properly controlled, of course. Don't you have volume from the congregation singing? No real drums and guitars? How do you have meaningful interaction and relationship between the musicians and singers? Is it doable because the sets are all planned out without any opportunity for variation or improvisation? And, the final question.....is it fun (in the right way)? What don't I understand?

This is worth a repost. I hate to say it, but i actually had more fun strumming an acoustic doing prison ministry then when doing the full out electric church band thing. And this was at a 2500 seater all modded out w/the whole Church Growth Movement Bells and Whistles.
That experience was more like walking on eggshells than ministry for me. Glad I'm not doing it anymore.
There is this strict time limit structure so that way new visitors don't get uncomfortable thinking that you are keeping them there too long

It is those kind of constraints that wind up really killing any kind of intimacy in worship for me.

[/rant]

Anyway, I have been reading the suggestions for going direct and will be studying these ideas

[Brett Valentine]

Another choice might be the Trademark 10 or 30 (I have a 60 that I actually like better than the POD).Just plug a jack into the headphone out and defeat the speaker.

Brett

[kjypeace]

You may want to consider a Vox DA5 with a mic in front of it. You can take it down to .5 watt get decent clean and dirty sounds, it has onboard effects and if you do not want stage volume it has a line out. It is my fallback rig for those intimate church situations when I need both clean and a little hair on my tone. I paid 105.00 USD.
POD XT live has useable tones if you are willing to spend a lot of time tweaking it for the venue, but I also struggle with monitoring when I use it.

[gainfreak]

I haven't read the whole thread ,so I am not sure if anyone mentioned this or not but you could use your own amp with an Axetrak for church gigs. It beats using a modelor 10 fold in my opinion and it sounds amazing. FWIW, I own 2 axetraks

For those of you who don't know what an axetrak is you can check it out here!!

http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/

I hope this helps!



Ralph

[derek2615]

Good thread.I have been pondering an ampless rig for weeks now

I would like something that fits onto a pedal board and not necesarilly as big as an XT or GE-6

Can I just plug an EQ into that Berhinger Ultra G DI Box along w/my other pedals?

Are there TUBE DI's which I can look for to try this out?

I play at church with my pedal board running straight into the little Berhinger Ultra G DI box. It's better than you might think. No it's not a tube amp but very usable. One IMPORTANT note on the Ultra G: I played for a couple of months before I realized that the "Cab Sim" button on the Ultra G was putting a tremendous amount of "Cab Hisss" in my signal. Turned off the Cab Sim and my signal back to the board was crystal clear. This fixed a lot of strange "tweaking" that I was having to do on my pedalboard trying to send a stronger signal to overcome the hiss noise. Berhinger Ultra G DI Cab Simulator stinks, don't use it!
Derek

[theraygun]

Another amp option is the Traynor YCV series of amps. You can pick the 15w up for less than $300 and it has a DI output and a speaker defeat option.

[bluesdoc]

I haven't read the whole thread ,so I am not sure if anyone mentioned this or not but you could use your own amp with an Axetrak for church gigs. It beats using a modelor 10 fold in my opinion and it sounds amazing. FWIW, I own 2 axetraks

For those of you who don't know what an axetrak is you can check it out here!!

http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/

I hope this helps!



Ralph

Hey Ralph, do you get excellent cleans out of the axetrak? I know it works well for lead tones but can it pull off full spectrum cleans?

And in addition to my post of last year, let me add that the Zoom G2.1u is a terrific sounding modeler. Definitely the next generation of processors working well. Small, can run on batteries, pretty user friendly.

jon

[CaseyI]

I know the original posted didn't care for it but I use the Tech21 Tri-ac and it does a great job for me. I just show up to church with my pedal board and plug into whatever DI.
P.S. did anybody else notice that this thread is a year old?

[gainfreak]

Hey Ralph, do you get excellent cleans out of the axetrak? I know it works well for lead tones but can it pull off full spectrum cleans?

And in addition to my post of last year, let me add that the Zoom G2.1u is a terrific sounding modeler. Definitely the next generation of processors working well. Small, can run on batteries, pretty user friendly.

jon

Jon!

Jeff (The creator of the Axetrak) Has a new model of the axetrak that works better with a clean sound. It isn't amazing or a pristine clean but definitely good enough for live gigs IMHO. This is just nitpicking though!! That said for overdrive sounds, it just kills! Thats really where the axetrak excels. If I had to do a gig that demanded pristine cleans then I would use a modelor for the cleans and the Axetrak for the dirty and inbetween tones.

[tmuka]

For a really low budget solution, try using the speaker emmulated output (analog!) of the digitech bad monkey into a regular di box. (most churches i've been in have plenty of DI boxes). This works with the pedal on and off... if you run it after your other overdrives/distortions it works decent for them as well... and then after the BM i run my modulation fx... give it a try!

[bluesjuke]

Quote:
Originally posted by justicetones
In the studio and when I traveled I used a Mesa V-Twin pedal. They are discontinued but plentiful on ebay for 200-300 dollars. I have also used this in front of my single channel amps with great results.



raz-
The V-Twin is oft overlooked as a high-gain pedal; but in fact, it can do a really nice Fenderish clean tone if you're willing to learn how to use it. It's a lot more versatile than it gets credit for, especially if you try dropping lower gain preamp tubes in it. I had the rackmount version (has it really been almost ten years ago? Yowzah) and with a Mesa 20/20 it's a dynamite little rig.

So, yeah, it's definitely a workable option...


I have the pedal version of the V Twin & think it's great. I use the Clean channel the vast majority of the time.
The DI works very well & in addition it is the best headphone amplifier I've used as well.

[bluesjuke]

For a really low budget solution, try using the speaker emmulated output (analog!) of the digitech bad monkey into a regular di box. (most churches i've been in have plenty of DI boxes). This works with the pedal on and off... if you run it after your other overdrives/distortions it works decent for them as well... and then after the BM i run my modulation fx... give it a try!



I use the mixer output of my Bad Monkey into my amp- I prefer this output.

Good idea for wife pleasing!

[hw2nw]

Go POD. I hate to admit it as a boutique freak, but I used it 4 years with a wah/volume pedal in front and went direct to the house...worked like a charm. The only thing that I enjoyed more was a Duoverb amp with the stereo direct outputs...2 different amp sounds in stereo was marvelous.

[jeffhef]

I've been a church player for about 6 years now. I've been from one extreme to another. The place I play now is more liberal. All the guitarists except one use tube amps and the Worship Leader loves it. But that doesn't address your problem.

1 - POD - I used one. The key to me in using the POD is to have top notch monitoring and a sound guy that knows what he's doing. I would run a pedal board in front of it and choose a clean amp model.

2 - Behringer V-amp2 - I've used one of these. I like the V-amp better for practice. To see what I'm talking about search for my name and you'll find a post where I described my pracitce setup.

3 - Behringer Direct DI box - It'll work. That's about all I can say for it. I didn't like it at all.

4 - Iso Cabs - I used a Demeter SSC-1 for about 18 months. Sound was too compressed and punchy for me. Also, after about a year the thing starts falling apart!! I guess the vibration just shakes it apart.

The cheapest solution I could recommend for you - not knowing the layout of your church - is to use what you already have. Take your Dr Z and put it in a room off the stage and out of the Worship Area. Use good quality cables for low loss. Maybe use one of the pedals that converts the signal from high to low impedance such as the RC Booster. Mic it up and crank it.

Ideally you could use a Tube head on stage and run a speaker cable to your cab in another room or isolated under a box. At one point I took a heavy cardboard box and lined it with foam. I'd drop this over my cab and it worked extremely well. We've also put the cab in one of those tupperware boxes with a mic and tucked it under the stage.

The thing is...there are ways to get good tone with what you have. Be creative and think cheap. You'd be surprised how well a heavy cardboard box lined with foam will knock out stage sound.

What I think most of us already know is...if you ain't movin' air...your tone will suffer. You gotta move air.

jeffhef

[Doug H]

I should also add that I no longer play in the band that required no stage volume and it's heaven to be playing live with great tube amps again. I'll never go back. It's a compromise you make for the sake of the situation, and that might not change in a church setting, but playing live with tubes and cones is the real deal and feels and sounds sooooo much better. Life (for me, anyway) is too short for those compromises anymore. But then, I'm gettin' old.......... :rolleyes: ;)
jon
Yeah, I'm in a praise band and I use my 10w homemade s/e 6L6 amp with a 1x12 g12h30. It's the "stage monitor" for the guitar and I add a little p.a. reinforcement as needed per the room and to bump up solos. We're independent so we can pretty much do anything we want. I keep that amp clean and use my pedalboard for all the dirt, so I can easily control the volume to accomodate. No one's complained yet... Besides, when we soundcheck, it's always the keys/vocals that are too hot! :D But even when I played for church I used that amp and everyone loved it.

I don't really get the "zero tolerance for stage volume" thing, but whatever... My approach is to use a low wattage amp and good pedals. I can pretty much keep everyone happy that way.

As to the original question- I would concentrate on decent speaker emulation first. That's the first challenge to going direct. Before spending $$$ on digitized POD and etc stuff, I'd look at spkr emulators and/or pedals with spkr emulator outputs. There are so many "ampy" pedals out there now- with spkr emulation that may be all you need. And it's less $$ than the POD route.

[POD Buster]

I'm stuck in the same situtation.....No stage volume. I currently go from my pedalboard into the church's POD XT Live just using the amp simulation (usually AC30). Does anyone make an amp simulator (not speaker simulator) so I don't have to mess with the whole POD thing?

[racktifier]

P.S. did anybody else notice that this thread is a year old?

I did! I think it reflects that this is a real issue that many church players face. Five years from now, this thread will probably still be around because the issue won't go away :jo

From my personal experience it's a mixture of logistic and manpower problems. In my church we have quite a diverse congregation so it's not uncommon to have up to 5 services going on simultaineously. Not all rooms/halls are adequately equipped for me to mic up. More importantly many of our soundmen are volunteers (we only have 3 full time) and may not have the necessary expertise or knowledge.

so i've learnt to make do with what I have if i need to go direct. In fact I bought a marshall jmp-1 preamp for its speaker-emulated output which is pretty decent. There are times when the sound I get is not satisfactory to my ears so I have to constantly remind myself that I'm not playing to please myself. I play as a worshipper and that alone.

Having said that, i'm quite interested to try out a koch loadbox - speaker emulator, attenuator and dummy load all in one package! Some forummers here have also mentioned combining a weber mass attenuator with a palmer PDI-09 with good results. Do take a look at this thread: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=124396&highlight=motherload

[CaseyI]

[quote=Doug H] My approach is to use a low wattage amp and good pedals. I can pretty much keep everyone happy that way.

quote]
I thnk I am going this route (small tube amp), I have been using the Tech21 TRI-AC for about a year and a half and it has worked well for me. I even recorded a live cd going direct and it make overdubs super easy. If anybody is looking for a good amp sim, mine is up for grags (shameless plug) $110.00 shipped and paypaled.

[jeffhef]

Low wattage is definitely the way to go. Actually right now I'm breaking that rule cos I just got my '63 Bassman and I'm kinda in to it. But usually I use a Cage 18/00 18 watt amp. I run it clean and color with pedals. I use a 1x12 open back cab I built and I've been running an Emi Wizard in it. However, i recently changed it to a Man-O-War. I'm trying out different speakers with my cab to see what I like best. The Wizard - even though Emi doesn't recommend it for ported cabs - really sounded excellent in it.

As far as this thread being a year old...I didn't notice. I think there's a lot of players here who are into this and these threads just seem to stay alive forever. I started a forum called PraiseBandsOnline last year but couldn't generate enough interest to justify keeping it up. So I recently let the domain name expire and took it down.

The thing is...a lot of us play in church but are still gear junkies. AND...because of where we play we have to deal with some tough issues. Being tone heads it's particularly difficult because I think the majority of us understand that tube amps are great for tone. But you have to push 'em to get that sweet sound.

As for having these threads on TGP...I love this forum and I respect the guys who run it. I always worry that the topic will stray from gear and venture into religion. I love to tallk about my faith but I have to respect the rules of the forum. I started the PBOL forum as a place where these discussions COULD venture into that area. Took about a year for me to realize that WE - that is Church Players - live in the world and are of the world. We don't want to isolate ourselves from our peers. We are players just like guys who play in bars. In fact, many of us still do that too. Also, the input from the diverse people on this forum and the situations under which they've played are most times not that different.

Maybe we could talk the guys who run TGP into putting up a section specifically for this topic where talk that ventures into religion would be acceptable. I don't know...

jeffhef

[Brian Scherzer]

Jeff...........The cause is a good one, but we would then have to start topic areas for many other sub-groups of musicians. My hope is that someone will start a discussion site elsewhere that caters to the P&W musicians.

[racktifier]

Jeff...........The cause is a good one, but we would then have to start topic areas for many other sub-groups of musicians. My hope is that someone will start a discussion site elsewhere that caters to the P&W musicians.

There are such forums!!! In fact some of the folks here on TGP are also on these forums.

http://www.guitaristpraiseforum.com
http://www.guitar4christ.com

[chewynodoubt]

Dude..listen to anything by Lincoln Brewster. He uses the PODxt live exclusively. His tone is killer. Listen to the clips on his website. www.lincolnbrewster.com

[jeffhef]

Jeff...........The cause is a good one, but we would then have to start topic areas for many other sub-groups of musicians. My hope is that someone will start a discussion site elsewhere that caters to the P&W musicians.

Yeah. Probably right.

Thanks,

jeffhef

[Chadley]

Dude..listen to anything by Lincoln Brewster. He uses the PODxt live exclusively. His tone is killer. Listen to the clips on his website. www.lincolnbrewster.com (http://www.lincolnbrewster.com) It sounds halfway decent on the CD but I have been to his church several times and his tone never sounds good live. It simply doesn't cut through the mix well enough. I also wonder how much of the stuff on the last live recording was overdubbed. They also could easily have recorded a direct signal from his guitar and reamped it later. His playing is always amazing but I think his tone really leaves something to be desired (especially live).

[jeffhef]

It sounds halfway decent on the CD but I have been to his church several times and his tone never sounds good live. It simply doesn't cut through the mix well enough. I also wonder how much of the stuff on the last live recording was overdubbed. They also could easily have recorded a direct signal from his guitar and reamped it later. His playing is always amazing but I think his tone really leaves something to be desired (especially live).
I was at a P&W Musicians Workshop last week. The guitar breakouts were done by Jimmy Riley. Do a google on him to see who he is. In brief...he's a heckuva musician, writer, producer and is also a music director at Willow Creek. We talked about Lincoln and he mentioned he'd seen him recently and he was mostly using tube stuff live now. I believe he said Bad Cat.

As a side note...if you get a chance to attend one of these workshops do it. My church paid the fee's. It was well worth the time. You take your instrument and you talk gear & technique. Jimmy would ask us to play with him and do certain things. He'd critique your playing and offer suggestions. VERY COOL!! I mean...this guy is a PLAYA!! It was lots of fun and not nearly as intimidating as you may think it would be.

Here's a link the conference website.

http://www.onethingconference.org/home.html

jeffhef