Theory Newbie Question: A Mode and its major scale

[6L6Blues]

I am a total noob to theory (besides learning a decent amount of piano when I was 5-10 years old and I don’t remember more than maybe 5% of what I learned – I read notation like a herd of turtles). Anyway, I was trying to figure out the easiest way to understand what major scale is related to a particular mode. So, for example take C Dorian. I read that is the same notes as the major scale of Bb (Ionian). When I tried to figure out why I noticed that the 7th note in the Dorian mode is the major scale key (C D Eb F G A Bb). I tried this with D Dorian which is the same notes as the C major scale. You see my newbie-ness coming through in more ways than one I am sure. So, can I always take the 7th degree of a mode as say “ok this 7th degree is the major scale key of this mode”? I hope I’m making sense.

I’m a blues guy who has played too many years (IMO) without learning theory. I also like Jazz (obviously can’t play it) and so I think it’s time to start learning more theory. I have a copy of the Advancing Guitarist, but before I get into that I want to spend however long it takes learning modes and probably some basic chord theory as well. Actually, I’d take any suggestions on books for introduction to chord theory if you got ‘em.

Thanks in advance,
Andy

[bynt]

The quickest way that I know how to get a feel for modes is to just drone your E string and do them in that key. It's kind of backwards but it works for me. So just drone your E string while playing an E major Scale=Ionian. Then you do the same thing (drone your E string) and play a D major scale=Dorian. Keep doing this with a C major scale (Phrygian), B major scale (Lydian), A major Scale (Mixolydian), G major scale (Aeolian) and finally and F major Scale (Locrian). If you do that with an androgynous droning E string in the background while you play these it lets the ear hear the difference. If you can play each of the aforementioned scales and find E as your root in all of them that will work even better. I bet your ear will find them on their own though. Then you can transfer this knowledge to other keys, especially coming from a blues background. So if you wanted to play mixolydian in g, you just play a C major scale (see also play the scale of a four chord in a blues progression) because if you want to play mixolydian in E, you play an A major scale. Does that make sense? Just try the droning E experiment. I bet that will help at least get a good feel for what they sound like and start being able to learn them in other keys. Good luck!!!!

[6L6Blues]

No offense intended Jeff Stocks, but that did not answer my question at all. Either my question was written horribly (totally possible) to imply that I didn't know any what you just wrote or you didn't really read my question. I am not sure which it was.

I am just wondering if C Dorian is the same notes as the Bb major scale because Bb is the 7th degree in C Dorian. Another example, the 7th degree of D Dorian is the note C and D Dorian has the same notes as the C major scale. I suppose I am just taking a short cut by asking here and could work this all out on my own. But, if I understand the concept I don't mind asking if I am correct.

edit - thanks bynt, I do practice over pedal tones actually (just droning notes) and it helps with modes. But, I guess I'm trying to understand the relationship of what Mick Goodrick calls in his book of derivitive mode thinking versus parallel thinking. I think it's page 13 or 14?

[joejazzguitar]

>> I am just wondering if C Dorian is the same notes as the Bb major scale because Bb is the 7th degree in C Dorian.

That's not WHY C Dorian is the same as Bb. C Dorian is the same as Bb because it has the same notes as Bb.

The fact is, as you have pointed out, that since Dorian mode contains a flat 7th, all Dorian modes MUST contain the root of it's Ionian mode.

ALL major scale modes have the same notes as their Ionian mode - that's what makes them modes. But since the whole/half step pattern changes depending on what degree of the major scale you start on, the tonal quality of the scale will change.

We're accustomed to hearing a scale in which the third note is a step and a half up from the root as some type of "minor" scale... so a C major scale started on D (aka D Dorian) will sound minor, despite the fact that it has the same notes as C major, in which the root and the third notes are separated by TWO whole steps.

joe

[6L6Blues]

Ok, I was making a huge (incorrect) assumption about the 7th degree. Joe you straightened me out. I won't explain how as I think it's just going to confuse you all. Thanks though.

[6L6Blues]

Thanks, Jeff. You got it. I am trying to think more of the "other" route as the flattened 3rd and 7th of a major scale to derive Dorian mode. I'm just having a bit of troubling get the idea to stick in my head. I probably phrased my original question poorly.

[6L6Blues]

Originally Posted by Jeff Stocks

Man I am just glad someone is really willing to take the time to improve their playing! Kudos for taking the time to really think through this stuff. It is always good to chat w/ a fellow seeker of knowledge.

I'll tell you though... It's extremely frustrating. I have tried before and have given up in the past. This is probably my 3rd time trying to learn theory (have given up twice). The problem is I have not found a good resource (book) to start theory from scratch. When it comes to modes people seem to have various ways of understanding them an applying them. If I wasn't an MBA student and working 40+ hours a week I would enroll in a music program. I've also tried weekly lessons and it's just not the right pace for me. So, again any book suggestions would be helpful. There are too many out there to know what is good to begin with.

In the past I tried Fretboard Logic. That did not do it for me at all. Lessons helped, but I don't have the time to drive out for lessons, the time I spend driving is the time I need to be using for practice...if that makes sense. Ok, I'm done ranting. Sorry.

[joejazzguitar]

About five years ago, I had the honor of taking a jazz class taught by Peter Einhorn at the National Guitar Workshop in Connecticut.

He told our class that we need to be exposed to modes/diatonic theory at least three times before we'd actually understand it. He was absolutely right, and I often repeat that story to my own students.

FWIW, I don't personally get a lot of mileage out of thinking as modes in terms of the major scale from which they are derived. In other words, it doesn't do ME a lot of good, in terms of my ability to improvise, to know that D Dorian has the same notes as C Ionian (aka, C Major).

What I DO get a lot of mileage out of is knowing the CHORDS that are derived from each of the modes, and knowing that ANY of the major scale modes can be used to solo of ANY of the chords derived from any of the modes.

If you built a four note chord starting on every note of a C major scale, you would build the following seven chords:

C MAJ 7
D min 7
E min 7
F MAJ 7
G 7
A min 7
B min 7b5

For giggles, throw a standard I-VI-II-V in C Major (CMAJ7 - Amin7 - Dmin7 - G7) into Band in the Box and play every mode of the major scale over it ...

That's when you'll begin to see the usefulness of diatonic theory....

joe

[6L6Blues]

Jeff - that book actually looks a bit too advanced for me. I need the most basic theory book I can get my hands on. Fretboard Logic was good in terms of beginner theory, but I found it dull and overwhelming trying to memorize all these CAGED patterns. I will admit I probably gave up too easy on it, BUT I will say I don't give up easily on things. I am very diligent...usually.

joe - Thanks. Your advice is appreciated, but if you can see where I'm coming from I got frustrated because I asked myself "why do you throw a standard I-VI-II-V"? "How does know that will work". So, just emphasizing my need for finding something that will start me off from the beginning.

It almost seems there is no beginning.

[gennation]

I think I see what you are trying to grasp...a reference point in Dorian that will tell you what the derivative Major scale is? Like if you have Dorian, the b7 (or 7th note particular to Dorian) is the Root note of the Major scale Dorian was derived at.

I think that's what you're going for.

[6L6Blues]

gennation - Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to grasp, but I am not sure if I can do that with other modes outside dorian. This thought entered my head reading Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist where he lists the modes of the C scale and then what he calls "parallel" mode so D Dorian starting with D (using the nots of major scale C) or C Dorian starting with C (using the notes of major scale Bb). At least that is how I am interpreting it. edit - Goodrick actually suggests thinking in this "parallel" versus "derivitives". He leaves quite a bit to the imagination, but I think that's part on purpose.

[joejazzguitar]

6L6 - its confusing at first.... the most applicable part of modes and diatonic harmony (for me) comes when you're trying to figure out how to improvise over a chord progression.

First - determine the key of the song. Once you know the key, write out the seven chords that are diatonic to that key. Circle all of those chords on your chart.

You can then use the major scale of the song's key.... or any mode of that major scale ... to solo over the chords that you circled. That's because those chords are diatonic to (ie, they belong to) the key of the song.

For instance, if you looked at the chart for George Benson's "Breezin", you'd see that the song was in the key of D. All four chords in the song - DM7, Bm7, Em7, A7 - ALL are diatonic to the ket of D Major. Therefoe you could solo over that WHOLE progression using just a D major scale... or E Dorian....or F# PHrygian....you get the idea.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you JUST play a D Major scale for your whole solo; it's just a way of identifying which seven of the 12 chromatic notes will fit over all four of those chords.

As you play over a song like Breezin', try to see the arppeggios of the chords that you are playing over, and try to connect those arpeggios using small intervals - that's when you'll REALLY start to get some melodic ideas into your solos !

Good Luck,
joe

[gennation]

Originally Posted by 6L6Blues

gennation - Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to grasp, but I am not sure if I can do that with other modes outside dorian. This thought entered my head reading Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist where he lists the modes of the C scale and then what he calls "parallel" mode so D Dorian starting with D (using the nots of major scale C) or C Dorian starting with C (using the notes of major scale Bb). At least that is how I am interpreting it. edit - Goodrick actually suggests thinking in this "parallel" versus "derivitives". He leaves quite a bit to the imagination, but I think that's part on purpose.

In Dorian the 7th note (b7) is the Root of the Major Key Dorian is derived from

In Phrygian the 6th note (b6) is the Root of the Major Key Phrygian is derived from

In Lydian the 5th note (P5) is the Root of the Major Key Lydian is derived from

In Mixolydian the 4th note (P4) is the Root of the Major Key Mixolydian is derived from

In Aeolean the 3rd note (b3) is the Root of the Major Key Aeolean is derived from

In Locrian the 2nd note (b2) is the Root of the Major Key Locrian is derived from

As YOU go up in Mode name, the Root note of the derived Major key goes down an Interval.

You can think of things this way if you want. But, since there really isn't a "constant" to grab onto use it more as a 2nd or 3rd reference for memorizing the modes and the Major Key there are derived from. Every Mode have that Root in a different place is going to take longer to remember that "Dorian is the 2nd, Phrygian is the 3rd, etc, etc..." Just my opinion.

[6L6Blues]

Thanks, Gennation. I guess the analyst in me wanted to figure that out and I couldn't make the connection (whether it would be useful or not ended up being irrelevent to me - I have that fortunate/unfortunate will to understand). You answered exactly what I have been trying to figure out. Seems so obvious in hindsight.

By the way, I actually started your lessons last night. I think they are what I need at this point. I started with the intervals lesson and have been writing down note names on the fingerboard. Looking forward to the next section - thanks so much for taking the time to put that online. Just don't take it away any time soon!

[drfrankencopter]

While it's important to realize that the notes from any one mode of the major scale are the same as the notes from a different parent major scale, it is also important that you do not just use a major scale equivalent approach for playing modally. By this I mean, while the notes of D dorian are the same as C major, you shouldn't approach them the same way. The character notes of D dorian will be those that correspond to a Dmin7.

Maybe as an experiment, try just freely playing in C-major over a D-min7 pad....I'll bet you gravitate to D-dorian patterns.

I think that when learning modes, that it's important to build chords with them, then you can see the context of where they are used. Then you can do things like play a over an A5 drone, using each of the modes, and you can see how the mode will bend your ear in terms of how you interpret that A5 underneath it (e.g. playing A Ionian will make it feel major, or major 7 like, whereas A phrygian will make it feel like a dark and brooding minor7, A mixolydian will give a dominant7 feel, etc...).

I hope that didn't confuse things....

Cheers

Kris